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A Preventable Tragedy · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Petia, Hannah, we have merch. Isn't this so exciting? It's
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: so cute. We have tote bags. They're red, which I
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: feel like really stands out. What a great pop of
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  Speaker 1: color for the season. That's right, it has our logo
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  Speaker 1: on it. The knife.
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  Speaker 2: They're perfect for whatever you need to carry around, as
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  Speaker 1: Smaller diapers, groceries, a puppy. It would all fit in.
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  Speaker 1: A puppy would definitely fit, definitely fit. So go ahead
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  Speaker 1: and orders need to be placed by December fourteenth in
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  Speaker 1: contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. The
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  Speaker 1: claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the
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  Speaker 1: speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or Exactly
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Right Media.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: If I screw up sometimes in court, like it can
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: be life and death for a client. I have clients
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  Speaker 3: who are up for deportation where if they do get deported,
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  Speaker 3: they will die.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith, I'm Patia Eaton. So, Hannah,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: you were out of town when we ended up recording this,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: but you and I have talked about this case a
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: bit over the last year, and that is the murder
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: of Lauren Johansson, whose ex boyfriend Bryson Rivers is currently
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: charged with capital murder. So in the studio with you
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: for this episode is Michael Foot, whose new show Brief
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Recess is part of the Exactly Right Media Network. He's
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: an attorney who was really able to walk you through
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: all of the legal happenings in this case. He talks
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: about the questionable decision making by a Tennessee judge, multiple
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: communication gaps between the clerk and the bonding agencies, and
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: how it all kind of led to Bryson rivers release
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: because had he not been released, Lauren would very well
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: still be here. Yeah, so that's a really pivotal thing
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: that happened. I just want to say I love listening
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: to this episode, excited for people to hear it. In
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: the beginning, Paytia and Michael chat for a bit about
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Michael's career and then they get into these case details.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Let's get into it. Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Eaton and Hannah is out this week, but she will
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: be back. And today I'm in the studio with our
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: guest attorney, Michael Foot.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Hi, thank you. Yeah, I know Hannah's out, and she's out,
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: but she was. They lowered me in on why. I'm
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: sure I am. I'm excited to join. I love well.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: We're so happy to have you. Because the case that
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: we're going to be discussing today, the legal side of
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: it is so I mean maybe not to some people,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: but to me, like very complex, multilayer and important.
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: So called a criminal defense lawyer, and I came real fast,
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: I'm ready to talk. I've actually I've worked on both
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: sides of the aisles. So I've been a criminal defense
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: attorney for many years, and I do a lot of
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: work with immigration law. But I also a lot of
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: people don't know this. I have a dark past working
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: for a prosecutor's office.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: I worked for the New Orleans Parish, the Orleans Parish Prosecution. Wow,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: so I was there. I went to law school at Tulane.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: So I lived in New Orleans for many years, and
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: it's very much the crime capital of America. And a
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: lot of what happens in New Orleans is that if
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: you want to work in criminal law, you go to
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: New Orleans because there's so much crime and the city's
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: so underfunded that the work that you get as a
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: junior lawyer as a law student is so voluminous. You
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: get your hands on murder trials at the age of
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: twenty three, You get to work with survivors, right, You
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: get to work on these really really complicated lawsuits right
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: out the gates. So even like I was going to
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: school down south there, but there were a lot of
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: people who like went to Ivy League schools in the
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Northeast who moved to New Orleans because they wanted to
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: learn criminal law. And if you're working in New York
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: City as a criminal defense attorney right out of law school,
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: it's going to take a decade before you get your
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: hands on a really complicated lawsuits. It was freaking wild.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds so intense. I can only imagine what
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: it would be like if you're on trial for murder and.
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  Speaker 3: A twenty three year OLDH my god, no, right, yes,
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  Speaker 3: I like it really is like that. Like my boss
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  Speaker 3: at the prosecutor's office was probably twenty seven, Like she
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: was in charge of me, and it's like, I don't know,
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure you noticed this as you sort
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: of talking to so many people on this show. Like
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: the thing about working and criminal law, the thing about
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: like getting into that machine is it's like it's a
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  Speaker 3: really dark place, right, Like a lot of lost, damaged
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: people find it as a profession, like myself included. I've
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: been very open about this on my show. I host
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: a show Brief Recess on Exactly the Right Network. It
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: airs November thirteenth.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: So check it out.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: Check it out please everywhere you get podcasts and on YouTube.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: But I was very much one of those people, especially
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: at that age, like I was struggling really with an
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: abusive relationship with alcohol. I was having some really complicated
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: personal relationships as a gay man, and it was a
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: really really dark time in my life, just like struggling
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: with depression and anxiety. I talked a little bit about
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: this with Georgia the other day on My Favorite Murder
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  Speaker 3: about just like going through significant depression, right and like
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: tools that we use. But at that time, it was
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: a great place for me to be in criminal court.
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  Speaker 3: It was where I needed to be, right. It's sort
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: of this place where the lost souls of the world
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  Speaker 3: end up. You're in this moment with people when their
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: entire life is falling apart, or this extreme crisis, or
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: you're in this moment when people are going through the
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: worst possible moment of their life, and as someone who
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: has gone through those moments, right, you get to be
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: there for someone in that moment, knowing no one was
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  Speaker 3: there for you and yours.
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  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, it's so purposeful, yes, even though it's probably
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: like there's such a darkness to it in your day
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: to day totally. I mean even working in true crime,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: like I am a consumer of true crime content, but
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: even me, sometimes I have to take a moment and
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: kind of you know, if I'm interviewing someone and that's
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: really emotive or like like, this isn't my story. I
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  Speaker 1: just have to hold it together. But it's not always you.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: Want to know what I do. I had an acropond
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: turist teach me this. We'll get into the story in
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: a minute. But when I'm interviewing someone, I do a
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: lot of victim work and advocacy for migrants. What's happening
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: to immigrants in America right now is absolutely inasing. So
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: I'm hearing really tragic, horrific stories of things that happen
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: to people in their home country and why they came
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: here and knowing, you know, looking at the pike of
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: what could possibly happen if they are to ported. So
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: an acupunctors taught me this. It's like a little bit
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: hippy toppy bullshit, but you take a finger and you
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: point it at the floor when someone's sort of trauma sharing, okay,
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: And it's sort of like an antenna, okay, just like
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: energetic antenna where whatever you're sort of like receiving, you're
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: sort of saying, like let it flow through you and
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: go back to the earth.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, Right, So you're storing all of that up because.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: I find I find like I do a lot of
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  Speaker 3: intake work, Like I would do work with like nonprofits
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: and do intake for them and sort of assess if
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: someone had a really strong immigration case and I was
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: absorting a lot.
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  Speaker 1: Of it, probably to like accurately assess those situations, you
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  Speaker 1: have to be this vessel. This is like clearheaded emotional to.
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  Speaker 3: You and Hannah as well of just like when you're
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: talking to victims and survivors, like when I'm prepping a
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  Speaker 3: victim for the witness stand or when I'm prepping a
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: witness you kind of have to go through it with
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: them in order especially to get like the testimony you
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: need to win that suit. So I gotta I've been there.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: I smell what you're stuffing them.
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  Speaker 1: You totally understand. Yeah. So the case that we're going
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: to be talking about today is centered around the murder
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  Speaker 1: of Lauren Porter Johansson, and that murder is alleged to
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: have been committed by her on again, off again boyfriend
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  Speaker 1: Bryce and Rivers. But I'll just start from the beginning
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: because it's such a layered story, and I know that
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: you're going to have so much insight into not only
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: how the justice system is operating here, but also how
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: in domestic violence situations, how do we protect people and
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  Speaker 1: prevent things like this? Yeah. Yeah, So Lauren Johansson was
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  Speaker 1: born on October thirty of two thousand and one. She's
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: from Ocean Springs, Mississippi. She's raised in a loving family
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: with very supportive parents shed siblings. When Lauren got to
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: high school, you know, I think, like most high school girls,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: she began dating and her boyfriend was a football player.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: He went to a neighboring high school, and her boyfriend's
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: name at this time is Bryson Rivers. Okay, So their
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: relationship even in high school was volatile, very you know,
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  Speaker 1: breaking up, getting back together, which can be typical of
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: if we've all been there. Yeah, but theirs was very explosive.
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  Speaker 1: But you know, Lauren could kind of see beyond this,
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  Speaker 1: and she had big plans for her life, and when
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  Speaker 1: it was time to go off to college, she made
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  Speaker 1: the decision to cut things off with Bryson Rivers and
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: she broke up with him, and it seemed like the
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: further she got from him and their relationship, the more
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  Speaker 1: she really thrived.
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  Speaker 3: Of course, Yeah, I mean, you're in an abusive relationship.
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  Speaker 3: I've been there where, especially when I was working for
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: the Prosecutor's office in New Orleans, I was in one
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  Speaker 3: of those relationships where it was really emotionally codependent in
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: an unhealthy way. And the further you get away from
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: that person's orbit, the healthier and happier you kind of.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Are totally in some cases in abusive relationships, which becomes
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: the case in Laurence. That person, the further you do
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: get from their orbit, the more they sort of try
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to like exert control.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's never about like loving that person, It's
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: always about control. I think people read DV cases or
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: they hear about them and it's like, wow, could you
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  Speaker 3: ever why wouldn't you? And it's like that's such like
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: a weird way to frame it, or just like an
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: inaccurate way to frame it totally, because it's like, oh,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: why wouldn't you leave him? It's like you don't understand
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: like what that person's going through. Like when I was
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: in like emotionally abusive relationships, I never got physical, but
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: it was definitely like I saw similarities in this case
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: to what I've been through, and it was very much like, oh,
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: I know exactly why this person didn't leave, Like you
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: need that in a way, it's an addiction kind of
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: for me at least, and I'm not speaking for all
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: DV survivors here.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's important to note, like it's not about
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: someone's level of intelligence. It doesn't always mean they don't
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: have a supportive family. It's like these abusers are really
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: relentless and want to find their way back in and.
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  Speaker 3: It's often subversive. It's also it's very very subtle sometimes.
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  Speaker 3: I mean I've worked with clients who were survivors and
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: it was like you would never know. It was like
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: the perfect wealthy family, socio economic class, like you would
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: just never know. It's incredible.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Lauren, you know, she was no exception. As
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: she got further away from Bryson rivers, she went off
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  Speaker 1: to college. She went to University of Southern Mississippi, studied nursing.
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  Speaker 1: She seemed to be thriving. She was a diligent student,
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  Speaker 1: made the Deans List, National Honor Society.
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: But Bryson never stopped pursuing this relationship, and eventually, at
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: some point Lauren let him back into her life. You know,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: we've talked about like how common this is. You can
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: look at something from the outside and it can feel
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: so clear, like why would you go back to this person,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: But it's so layered. And they were college age. I
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: don't know that Bryson was even going to.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: School, but of course when I was college age, come on,
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: you don't know.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Which way is up. It's like you're so young, of
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: so much life ahead of you, but you don't have
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: obviously as much life experience to draw from. And so
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: eventually Lauren and Bryson get back together, and in December
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, they travel from their home state
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: of Mississippi where they're both from to Tennessee to the
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Nashville area for a vacation. Okay, so this is in
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: December of twenty twenty three. They're both in their early twenties.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: I think at the time Lauren is twenty one or
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: twenty two. Bryson's maybe a year older. So after a
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: night out, you know, they're drinking, Bryson accuses Lauren maybe
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: cheating on him, or he's angry.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: He's talking bartender, talking to the bartender.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, oh my gosh. Yeah, so he gets really angry.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: They leave the bar. This argument ensues and they get
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: into their rental car. I don't know if Bryson forces
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: her into the car, but they both get into the
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: car and he starts driving away. He takes her phone
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: at some point, and he's becoming violent. Eventually pulls over
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: and starts brutally attacking Lauren.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he isolated her. He took her out of public,
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: put her in a car, took away the phone, like
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: he really did, isolate her away from anyone who could
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: have possibly intervened.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Which tells me he knows this is unacceptable.
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: It's premeditated, right, It's something we do with all the time,
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: especially in these types of cases. It's like a horror film, right,
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: Like we go to the cabin in the woods, the
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: lights go out, the electricity goes out in the phone service,
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: and that is when the horror sort of occurs. So
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: that is like a very common trope, especially in dB
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: cases and murder cases. It is a very common theme
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: where we see abusers isolating a person, taking away their
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: ability to spend money or their physical agency. It is
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: very common and it comes up all the time. This
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: was extreme and happened in an instant, oftentimes over many years. Yeah,
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: and it's just this person's name is on the deed
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: of the house, or oh, just this person has access
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: to this one bank account, or oh you should quit
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: your job, or you shouldn't talk to that friend anymore,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: or oh your mom's being really toxic, maybe cut off
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: that relationship. And it's slowly right, that's by a thousand
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: paper cuts.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I don't know how long they had
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: been back together when this happened, but they had separated
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: before this, and her family was very aware that he
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: was no good. Yeah, and that had to have just
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: been like an impossible situation for them, because I'm sure
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to cut off contact by saying I'm
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: not gonna condone this, but you also would want to say, like,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: this is unsafe. I mean, I don't know what was said,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: but from everything I read, it seems like her family
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: was just like the most loving, supportive family, and you know, and.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: It's one of those things where it's like it's families
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: are often in this very precarious situation where it's like,
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: if we cut off the relationship with the victim that,
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: or if we put down to firm of a foot,
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: or if we have ours too strongly opinionated, we might
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: lose access altogether to this person, and then we won't
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: be able to advocate and help exactly.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: It's a very very difficult line to walk. And so
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: they leave this bar. This is in December twenty twenty three.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: They leave this bar, he attacks her. He brings her
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: to another location, this parking lot, and we learn later
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: that anytime a car passes by, he covers her mouth,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: that she can't scream for help. He has a gun
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: with him that he's hitting her with. I mean, it
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: is a violent, violent attack, and at some point, really miraculously,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Lauren's able to call her parents during the attack.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and they it's insane that she was able
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: to do that. That's incredible.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: It's incredible. And you know, her parents were back in Mississippi.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: They at this point know Bryson Rivers is not someone
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: that she's safe with. So I'm sure they were already concerned,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: but they hear that she's being attacked by him, and
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: so they're frantically trying to get her help and they
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: have the Life three sixty app okay, and so they
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: were able to from her phone. Yeah, so from her
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: phone data, her Life three sixty app telling them her location.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: They were able to get local authorities to get there
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: and help her. Which it's amazing that that happened, because
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: how do you I can imagine getting a call from
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: my daughter's states away of course, yeah, and being like,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: how do I help your Yeah, So they were able
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: to get local authorities on the scene.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: And those calls are often critical evidence at trial. So
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: those are things that like, I've used nine on one
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: calls all the time when I worked for the DA's
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: office in New Orleans. That was my job was to
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: prep the nine one one phone operators for the witness stand.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: We was subpoena the person who answered the phone, wow,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: and have them testify. Okay, so those calls are that
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: that is going to come up at trial, because I
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: know we're not a trial yet, for.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Sure it will come up. Well, her parents call and
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: then the police dispatch get there and I think Bryson
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: is running from the car when they arrive, or they
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: capture him right away or maybe a few hours.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: It's unclear. There was like a scuffle, there was some
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: sort of dust up because I think his mugshot he
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: is he's bloodied, he has marks on his.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Guys, Lauren's blood all over him.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: Oh is that what that was?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, so he has Lauren's blood all over him
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: when the police capture him, and you know, there's blood
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: all over the interior of the car, there's blood on
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: the gun, there's blood on bryson rivers. I mean, this
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: was a brutal attack and Lauren is severely injured. She
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: has to recover in the.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: Hawsheness in the hospital for a few days. And this
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: is when I was reading this, I was like, this
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: is a very interesting case because we don't often have
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: that physical evidence in dB cases, and they oftentimes get dropped.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: So this is critical physical evidence. Physical evidence is always
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: going to be better than testimony because we can have
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: experts testify to it. We can call a blood splatter expert,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: we can call the lab tech, we can call like
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: all sorts of people who can come and testify. It's
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: sort of a HEAs that she said in any other
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: situation if we don't have that physical evidence. So seeing
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: this and hearing that, knowing there was a phone call,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: knowing that there was bodycam footage I think from the police,
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: and having that DNA evidence is just like it's huge, extraordinary,
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: like slam dunk. If I'm that defense attorney, we are
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: playing this out big time. We are taking the play
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: whatever the first offer is.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because the police arrest Bryson Rivers and he's charged
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated stocking, coercion of a witness. Yes, Lauren,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: as we said, recovers in the hospital. Well, Lauren's father
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: is a surgeon. Yes, so he catalogs her injuries. She's
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: over one hundred was hit over one hundred times.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: Oh my god.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: And so they did everything they could do to show
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: the court this is a very dangerous person who will
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: no doubt do this again. Here is a family who
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: did everything that they could do to protect their daughter
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: right and ultimately she was not protected. And so Bryson's
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: charge aggravated kidnapping aggravata is talking coercion of a witness.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: And his bond is set two hundred and fifty one
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars and he's unable to post this bond. Because
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: bond plays such a big role in this, can you
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about actually.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, bond is a fucking wild in America,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: it's absolutely on him. So bail bondsmen are effectively a
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: financial institution that underwrites a bond so that someone can
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: get released when they don't have the money. So they're
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: like the loan company, so they have a lean on
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: your bond. Judges determine bond amounts and that is critical
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: in this case. Here. There are sentencing guidelines. There are
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: bond guidelines based off the severity of the crime. So
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: in Tennessee, the severity of the crime was equal to
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and one dollar. Judges
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: have discretion when determining what the bond is. However, once
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: a defendant is sort of given a bond amount. Most
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: people don't have a quarter million dollars sitting at a
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: bank account, so they go to a bail bondsman and
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: they act as a financial institution. That institution it's usually
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: near the courthouse. It's usually run. I don't want to
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: like like, I don't want to like crochet it all
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: bail bondsmen in America. But you're not going to a
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: city bank, You're not going to a Bank of America
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: to get one of these. This is like a bond
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: company that is like a loan service, and it's oftentimes
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: high rates, oftentimes owned by one individual. And how it
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: works is a bail bondsman under rights will sort of
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: pay that money to the court. The defendant will be
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: on the hook, and that ensures that if that person
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: flees or violates the terms of their bond, the bail
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: bondsman is on the hook with the court. So you're
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: sort of like this stand in for them, and so you're.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Then incentivized to make sure that these people that you're
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: signing off on just do as they're told when they're released,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: because their charges are still pending.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: And that is where we get this sort of exciting
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: concept of the bounty hunter, right that with this all over.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: We see it all over film and television. These like
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: you know, badasses, they're and ride motorcycles and like round
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: up the bad guys. They usually work for bondsmen because
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: bail bond companies don't have a sort of authority. They're
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: not government agencies. These are private entities. And because they're
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: usually like some guy near the courthouse. Yeah, they themselves
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: are underwritten by insurance companies, so the insurance companies will
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: have a stake. So it is very much like this
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: three card shuffle. It's kind of like this little bit
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: of a gamble, but it's quite lucrative for a lot
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: of people. I don't want to like shit on the
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: industry of bondsmen. I know it is a really fucked
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: up situation in this case, but they serve like a
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: vital force in the criminal law community because you weren't
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: guilty until we prove it in court, right, right, So
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: we presume innocence in America for now, and we decide
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: that we say that you know, if you're accused of
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: a DEWI we have to prove it before you are
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: actually held accountable for it. With sentencing so we're not
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: just going to throw you in jail until that happens.
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: And that's where the concept of bond comes up.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like in theory, this really important system that allows
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: people who are innocent to not be sitting in jail
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: till their trial happens.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: And it happens all the fucking time. But I go right, right,
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: I've worked on cases where the prosecutors are so over
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: zealous and what the charges are and then those witnesses
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: fall through more than the police lose the evidence, and
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: then the person's released and the charges get dropped. It
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: happens all the time. So bond is really important. I mean,
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: I work in New York City and so we have
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: different you know, bond laws there, but just speaking generally
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: in America, bond is really important because it can take
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: you years to get to trial.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really important. And it's for the same reason,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: really important that the bonding company and we'll get into
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: the GPS tracking communicate with the court clearly to make
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: sure everyone's on the same page. And that is where
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: this case really I think takes I mean, obviously from
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: the very beginning, this is a terrible case, but.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: We failed the victims of society and as government institutions.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is really one where I've seen some
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: weird and crazy situations come up with bondsmen and judges
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: and weird rulings or but in this case, basically the
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: judge decided that not only should his bond be lowered,
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: but that he should be bonded out. And he went
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: and got a bond, and the bond had terms where
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: he could not travel, which is very cool.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I want to dig into that because
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: you know, so his original bond is said at two
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty one thousand dollars and he can't make
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: this bond. He can't pay the small amount to the
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: bill company, not small amount, but the smaller amount to
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: even have them put fifty thousands. So they advocate, you
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: need to lower this bond. His public defender says, you
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: need to lower the bond. You can't make the bond. Well,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Lauren's dad goes to these hearings and he says, if
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: you let Bryson Rivers out, he will kill my daughter.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Like he is dangerous. I mean, I guess I don't
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: have the exact quote in front of me, but it
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: is very close to that. He lays it all out.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: This is a violent person. He has attacked her more
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: than once. I think it was like five or six times.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: By this point, he details Lauren's injuries. I mean, he
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: really makes a strong case for why this bond needs
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: to stay really high because this is a very dangerous person.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: So Judge Ryl. Blackburn is the judge who ends up
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: deciding whether or not to lower this bond. She has
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: provided with several pieces of evidence to base this decision
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: off of which shockingly includes body camera footage of this
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: December twenty twenty three attack where Lauren is seen in
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: the car pounding on the window for help.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, is it's really violent, it's brutal eye. I mean,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: I would really hate to be the lawyer on this
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: case cause that's my gos A real loser.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And she also has given audio of a call
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: that Bryson Rivers made to Lauren from jail where he
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: asked her to just deny everything, which he's not supposed
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: to have.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Any contact with my job for the DA's office. In
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: addition to whatever I said earlier, I forget what it
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: was my job for the Prosecutor's office when I was
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: twenty three was. I would sit there all day with
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: little earbuds in like this, and I would listen to
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: phone calls from jail. All of those calls are fucking recorded,
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and they tell you and you pick up the phone
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: and someone is listening. It's me at twenty three, full
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: head of hair listening to what you're saying. We would
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: listen because people would oftentimes call their friend to be like, Hey,
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: when I get bonded out, I want to skip town
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: and go to Mexico. So okay, I would be listening
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: for that, and I would have to like nark on.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: The pain, like Yson wants to go to Mexico.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: And I would have to write to my boss and
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: be like, hey, the defendants trying to flee. You have
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: to bring this to the judge and then we would
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: get the bond denied using that evidence.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: And that is a good thing because you can see
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: that person's intentions. And so she's given this phone call,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Bryson calling Lauren and saying, you know, deny everything. That's
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: so brazen, like you just attacked this person. You know
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: that you've been arrested on really serious charges. And the
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: judge also has someone present from the Metro Nashville Police
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Department Domestic Violence Unit comes in and testifies that Lauren
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: said that well Bryson was beating her, he would cover
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: her mouth when that car would pass by. So it's
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: not just you know, yeah, Lauren's dad saying please don't
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: release him. This is like hard evidence that she's being
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: provided with to base this decision off of, and she
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: ends up deciding to lower his bill by one hundred
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: I have to be careful here because I'll get in
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: trouble with the Bar Association if I disparage courts and judges.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: But I have seen some really strange decisions made. We
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: don't know what was brought to her chambers, but I
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: will say that, like, based off what we can see
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: and the fact pattern that I was given, and the
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: accounts and the articles that have been written, this is
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: an unusual decision for a judge to lower bond based
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: off this evidence. I've seen judges maintain bond most of
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: the time in light of the evidence. So it was
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: just like kind of like a little quote. I was like,
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: this is unusual when I read this, because judges are
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: usually pretty quick to leave bond where it is, especially
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: because we have this robust bondsman business in America where
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: you can get bonded out on a two million dollar
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: bond if you mean you don't pay.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Ten to fifteen percent. And so it's like, okay, we'll
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: go and do that.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: Great.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: So she ends up lowering his bond to one hundred
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars, but securing this bond still takes
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: some time, and Bryson remains in custody for a couple
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: more months after his bond is lowered, and his mother
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: is like calling all of these bonding companies trying to
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: do this and figure out the one hundred and fifty
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: and she eventually finds two different bonding companies to each
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: sign for like seventy five thousand dollars.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: Oh god. And so I just hate this so much
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: because I'm thinking, like, yeah, we say this all the
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: time on my show. What's going on in the home.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: What's going on in the home where this mom is
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: like helping her son and there's so much evidence that
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: he's an abuser. Like this is just so disturbing to
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: me because it's really upsetting. It just it's.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Surprising because it's like if you're a lover moms. Right,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: it's like there's this primal urge. Probably, I mean, my
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: kid's a toddler, but like, if you're wild is in trouble,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there is an innate sense of wanting to
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: help them. However, are you even protecting your child? Oh
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: my god, if you know they're a danger to themselves
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: and others.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just extraordinary that she's trying to help bond
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: him out, and.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Oh and it gets so much worse. So they end
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: up posting the bond, and he's assigned a probation officer
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: at this point, and he's made aware of his release conditions.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: So the District Attorney's office was also supposed to receive
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: the addresses where Bryson could not be, which would have,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: of course included Lawrence address. Okay, So Bryson's release conditions
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: are that he needs to stay in Davidson County, which
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: is in Tennessee. And you know he's from Mississippi. They
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: were just visiting Tennessee. So he gives his attorney an
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: address of where he can supposedly reside after his release.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: It's located in Nashville, I think, but it's in Davidson County.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: He is supposed to wear a GPS tracking monitor monitor.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we see this. I mean these are notorious in
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: society and in pop culture. We see them on you know,
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: on the deelv walking at fashion Week, we see them
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: on like. Yeah, the terms of his release, like having
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: to stay in one place is like very common. I
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: think it's in Tennessee. Unless it's a capital crime, you're
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: eligible for bond.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: And a capital crime is just literally first degree murder,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: premeditated murder. Wow. Yeah. So that is wild that people
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: are available for run. And it also speaks a little
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: bit to like that state's sort of institutionalized prison system, right.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I mean I talk about this a lot on MYSHO,
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: where it's like we are the incarceration capital of the world,
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: and oftentimes states like Tennessee, these red states, it's an industry.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: It is a business. So the fact that they have
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: those sort of bond structures speaks to the government in Tennessee.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: It speaks to what the legislature is willing to allow. Yeah,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: that would never fly in New York.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Well good, well, okay, backing up a little bit, So
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: he has to stay Davidson County, where he's not from.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: He was visiting for Mississippi, gives his lawyer this address
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: that he is supposedly able to go stay at because
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: he has to be present for hearings and things like that.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: He's not supposed to have any contact with the victim Lauren.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Obviously he cannot travel back to Mississippi. And how they
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: are planning to enforce us is this GPS tracking monitor,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: which of course he can leave with the undrawn, but
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: it's supposed to alert people of course.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Usually it's like a private company that manages these,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: where they have some sort of connection to the government.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: You get the sense from this case because it failed
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: in this situation. I mean he fled, he left, and
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: he ultimately went and lurdered the victim.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Lauren's life was a safe. Your safety was a stafe.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: And part of the rules around his release is that
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: he is not to be released after four pm because
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: GPS Tracking Solutions, where he was spo to have this
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: monitor of figs yes to his ankle, was closed it
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: for so he was released at four or five pm.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is one of those situations. This
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: is like a Namer situation for me. I would these
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: keep me up at night? These because it is It's
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: like that I had a client who was deported because
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: the package like arrived at the immigration office like five
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: minutes late, and it was like, can you there was
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: one of these It's one of these situations like these
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: are the things that just make me so stressed as
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: an attorney. It's like that when these deadlines are deadlines,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: it's another real critical life and death ramifications.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's unbelievable that this happened. And he knows that
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: he is supposed to have this tracking hunter. He has
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: to see his release conditions before being released. He's made
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: aware of them. So he goes to another place to
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: have his inkle monitor installed installed right, and the person
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: who installs it doesn't have a copy of these release conditions,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: so she takes his word for what he says, which
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: is that he can totally leave and it's okay, and
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: she puts the inkle monitor on, and what does he do.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: He immediately heads from Mississippi and here is where his mother,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: which in a separate case which we'll get into, it
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: alleges that she sent that bonding company where he went
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: to have his inkle monitor fixed, because the inkle monitoring
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: person was also working at the bonding company. Or something
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: You get the sense that this is like the tiniest
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: little town and like the guy who runs the post
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: office is also like the gym teacher. It just should
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: have said. And it's also like, I mean, this was
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: the moment in the case where I was like, the
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: system is not set up to protect victims, right, udicial
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: system fails victims all the time. And I'm saying that
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: as a criminal defense attorney, right, Like I am acutely
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: aware of like the hypocrisy of some of my statements
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: here today, Like this is a situation that no one
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: should have been in, and oftentimes the onus is placed
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: upon domestic violence victims to protect themselves. You talked about
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: it a lot in this case. Her dad documented everything
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: and was like really organized, Like there is totally a
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: world where if he didn't do that, he would have
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: been bonded out for way less or their bond wouldn't
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: have been set very high.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: So, oh, she was just catastrophically failed. For this woman
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: who installs this inkle monitor, you know, she's taken his
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: word for it. He tells her, I can travel, it's fine.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: So the GPS alert that is supposed to alert if
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: he leaves the county. It's not set up, so he
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: immediately of course leaves. And now a little bit of
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: background on this person who installed the inkle monitor. It
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: comes out later that she was working three jobs. She
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: had full time job, I believe with Child and Family services,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: and then two part time jobs, one of which was
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: this newly formed inkle monitoring service.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: I know this is one of these situations where, like
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: I've known this for a long time, that like the
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: criminal justice system is held together with like paper clips
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: and bubble gums, and they are very real people. It's
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: like when the curtain is pulled back and Wizard of
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: Oz and it's just like some guy that is what
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: a lot of this is held together by. And there
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: are a lot of gaps, and it's underfunded, and we
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: come to this place to train get justice and.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: It is and it's like want someone's been murdered.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, how do we actually, yeah, what do we
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: do with this? Right?
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Because this is a violent abuser and he was taken
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: at his word and so he of course immediately heads
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: from Mississippi because his mother had sent one hundred and
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: thirty dollars or this is what a lawsuit that we're
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: gonna talk about leader. A Ledge is sent one hundred
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: and thirty dollars to this bonding company and says, this
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: is a bus ticket for him to come to Mississippi. Insane, crazy, sane.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: And so he goes and gets this inkle monitor installed,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: and then something happens where they realize you need the
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: alert system set up, and so they say come on
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: back in. So he comes back in and I think
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: this happens on June twenty ninth. He returns to get
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: a new monitor or something fixed with this monitor, and
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: so he gets this new inkle monitor system going, and
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: he leaves again and he heads to Mississippi and now
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: his Inkle monitor, even though this alert system wasn't set up,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: it does show the monitoring service that the battery is
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: running out. And so he gets a call from this
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: person who installed the inkle monitor or this company and
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: they say, look, you're down to six percent. You need
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: to charge your monitoritor and apparently he us and then
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: they get a call from him hours later, like maybe
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: around midnight, and he says that he's not going to
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: make it to his hearing tomorrow.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry. This stress me crazy because I have clients
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: who arrive a minute late to the hearing and are
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: put in prison.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: It's mind boggling. And in the week prior, you know,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: when he had been released, a call was made to
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Lauren's father saying that Bryson was going to be released.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: But he doesn't get that call. He gets a message
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: and he listens to it like three days later or something, which.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Like who leaves voicemails anymoremails? I guess someone has some
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: of them my voicemail. I hope it's not important because
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: I'm not listening to it.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: On the verge of one hundred percent because I'm but
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, if it's an unknown number, you're not going
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: to answer. And you would think if it's something as
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: important as this violent offender leaving town violating his release terms,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: you think someone's banging on.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: Your door to yeah, and not just like as not
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: just a.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Phone call, oh, due diligence, We did our phone calls.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Like that's not enough. Of course, people are living their lives.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: And that is not the norm, by the way. I mean,
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: it usually is like there's a notice that goes to
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: the local precinct. Usually if that happens, like there's there
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: are usually systems in place like that is why this
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: is such an extreme case to be talking about, like
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: this is so many failures where it's like you couldn't
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: even write this right, it's so bad.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: And so then he returns to Mississippi, and by the
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: time Lauren's father realizes that Bryson has been released and
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: he's violated the terms of his release, he I think,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: calls Lauren's sibling who maybe was living with her at
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: the time. They don't know where Lauren is, and so
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: he fills a missing person's report and that happens very quickly,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: and then.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: Quick psa missing person reports. Please file them when you
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: notice the person's missing. There is this like huge misinformation
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: campaign that you have to wait forty eight hours. You
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: don't file it immediately when you notice it, and if
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: they're giving you shit about it, be like I don't
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: care file it anyway. This is like the police work
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: for you. You pay their wages, your tax dollars go
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: to support their entire institution, demand that they file a
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: missing person's report and start looking and like take it
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: upon yourself because we see the system fail people all
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: the time, like get on the social media. It's like
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: now is the time to post.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Right, So it sounds like he files this missing person's
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: report for Lauren the very next morning. Yeah, but I
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: just want to like recap really quick, how fast all
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: of this is happening. So June twenty fourth, twenty twenty four,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Bryson Rivers is released on bond. So on June twenty seventh,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: the bonding company is already having issues with the inkle
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: monitor that was initially installed on Bryson Rivers. They ask
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: him to return so that they can fix it, and
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: by June twenty eight, according to a lawsuit that's now
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: filed against this bonding company, by June twenty eighth, they
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: were aware that he was violating the conditions of his
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: bond by traveling to Mississippi, which he had done by
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: bus immediately after he was released. So June twenty ninth,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Bryson Rivers returned to the bonding agency and I saw
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: on news Channel five in Nashville that they were provided
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: a photo of Bryson coming back to the bonding agency,
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: and I believe it's from a security camera, and he
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: arrives in Lauren's car, and it is believed that Lauren
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: was in the passenger seat in that moment. On June
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: twenty ninth. So if that's all correct, then that means
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Bryson Rivers, immediately after being released, took a bus to Mississippi,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: went to Lawrence Place, got her and her car, and
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: drove back to Nashville, and then went into the bonding
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: agency while presumably she's sitting out front in her own
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: car while he gets his inkle monitor fixed. By the
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: time that Lauren's father files this missing person's report, Lauren
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: has likely already been killed. And so they were able
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: to track Lauren's vehicle with its on Star system, and
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: it's located now back in Mississippi at a cemetery. Her
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: body is in the trunk, wrapped in like towels and
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: trash bags, and Bryson Rivers flees the vehicle when police
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: show up. So he was there, she was still there,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: and then he's captured in the woods. I read that
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: he made a phone call to his brother admitting that
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: he had killed her. I mean, he has not been
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: convicted of her murder, but he's now been charged with
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: capital murder.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: These are the facts being laid out at.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Trial and Lance Lauren's father, I cannot fathom the pain
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: to lose a child, or lose anyone you love in
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: this way. I mean, it's so horrific, and she had
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: her entire life ahead of her. I mean, I cannot
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: imagine the pain that this family is feeling. And he
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: has gone out there and spoken about the failure here
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: and how his daughter was not protected and with such
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: composure as no one owns he's a good day. No
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: one owes anyone anything when you suffer.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: A loss like that, But nobody's really taken the opportunity
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: to be like a victim's advocate. And everything he did,
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: like through this case is just like extraordinarily supportive. It's
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: just like yeah, just like documenting it and just reading it,
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, this is like Dad of the
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: Year just being yeah, awesome.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: He did everything I think he could have done. I mean,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: by that time, your child is an adult, Like you
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: don't get to just like like lock them in their
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: room if you're scared for their safety. So Bryson Rivers
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: has now been charged with capital murder, where he is
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: back in custody. His trial right now is scheduled for
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, and.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: Finally apital crime where he won't be eligible for bonds. Finally,
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: he's now finally charged with a capital crime.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Right, it's like just awful that it had to come
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: to that. And so prosecutors have said that they intend
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: to seek the death penalty. And his trial was originally
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: set for late twenty twenty five and now has been
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: set for March third, twenty twenty six. His courtroom behavior
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: has been just awful. He has been smiling and waving
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: and bowing and seemingly like very proud of what he's done.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just yeah, it's sick.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: It's sick. And so that is happening in twenty twenty six.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: But Lance Johansson has filed a lawsuit. The dad, the dad,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Lauren's dad has filed a lawsuit.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: I read the whole suit and like, the suit is
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: very biased, right, It's it's a plaintiff. So in civil court,
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: whoever's decided to bring the suit is the plaintiff. So
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: he is the plaintiff in this case, and he's suing
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: the monitoring company. He is suing the person who installed
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: the monitor on the ankle. He went down the list.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: I think there's like fifteen defendants in this lawsuit. And
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: the reason why I say it's like a very biasuit
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: is because this is the initial complaint. So this is
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: you file an initial complaint in civil court saying this
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: is everything that happened, and it's written from your perspective.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: So the defense then responds to this and says, well,
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: this is what happened on our side, and we have
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: that as a big fat question mark. I can't imagine
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: it's going to be a very robust defense. The evidence
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: is pretty damning, the damages are very real. In every
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: civil case, you need to have a duty, a breach,
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: causation and harm. So a duty to behave a certain
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: way in society, a breach of that, so murdering someone,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: violating your bond inappropriately installing an ankle monitor, that would
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: be the breach causation. It has to be the direct
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: cause of the damages, which in this case are the
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: dollar amount he's suing.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: For right which is one hundred and fifty million dollars.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: And good for him, get it. I mean, reading that
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: lawsuit rading the plane, I'm like, Okay, this guy was
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: incredible at gathering evidence throughout this entire process. I'm very
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: curious to see what happens if I had to read
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: the tea leaves my booth at the station with a
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: crystal ball. The train station would be that there's going
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: to be a nice settlement here and that this will
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: not go to trial because the evidence is so damning.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope that is what happens and that
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: they have to pay.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it'll be a really interesting he's suing the bond company.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: Bond companies are underwritten by insurance companies, so I don't
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: know if that's a co defendant.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm curious that he didn't sue the like the
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: judge or the township. I'm curious about that.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't end up talking about this aspect of
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Judge Cheryl Blacky.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: So there have been some articles about Judge Blackburn, how
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: she suffered a stroke in twenty twenty one, and there
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: have been attorneys who have come out and claimed that
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: she is mentally incompetent to be on the bench, which
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: is in a small town like this. Doing that can
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: be the end of your career as an attorney. So
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: the fact that these lawyers, and I think a lot
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: of them were defense lawyers, felt that her decisions were
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: erratic and unpredictable, and I am not commenting on whether
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: or not they were for legal purposes.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: It was in question.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: It was thrown heavily into question, and a group of
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: attorneys from a small town came out against a judge
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: and said that that can really fuck your career RT time, Like,
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: I mean.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: You're seeing in front of that judge again.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: You're seeing how KGM being right now about answering questions
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: about a judge in the state that I'm not even
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: a part of, because I'm like, we are very protective
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: of that and judges you have to appear in front
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: of them. I have relationships with certain judges I've appeared
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: in front of for a decade where I know them
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: in court. They know my personality in court. I have
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: built that rapport where they know I'm not going to
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: freak out or I'm not going to object to every
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: stupid little thing, or that when I do freak out,
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: they should really listen because I'm oftentimes like a great
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: credibility collected. Right. So the fact that these attorneys came.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Out and did this means that it really says something.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: It really says something about the egregious nature of her
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: behavior on the bench. Lowering that bond from two fifty
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: to one fifty is a big fat question mark. I
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: don't know what compelled her to do that or what
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: the reasoning was. It's I'm not saying there wasn't any
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: I'm saying that it's not clear from the fact pattern,
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: right it is.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: It's very unclear. And you know, in October actually of
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, a six judge panel, yes, sits to
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: review what happened and see if rules were broken.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Did they have an outcome yet from that?
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Because yeah, so I think what they determined and I'll
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: pull it up.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: A six judge panel reviewing other judges like that. I
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: have to do that when I submit immigration appeals to
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: the Board of Immigration Appeals. Okay, it's like the other judges,
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: it's their peers.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: So for they were reviewing the bonding companies, Yeah, let
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: me pull it up. A six judge panel ruled on
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Monday the two bonding companies did not break local court
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: rules after a man bonded out in Nashville and was
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: later accused of killing his girlfriend in Mississippi. So they're
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: reviewing these bonding companies and saying, did you violate core orders?
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: And ultimately they determined that there were a lot of
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: small errors that resulted in this catastrophic failure.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, I wonder what other failures there have been.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: Is there a class action lawsuit here or like what
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: is going on? Because I mean, for me, once right,
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: I can't imagine this is the first time these bond
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: companies have totally screwed up like this.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, how would we even ever know? It
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: says that the criminal court clerk's office failed to send
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: the full and complete bond condition order.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: They're blaming the clerk's office.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: So the clerk's office did not communicate with the bonding
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: company and the Freedom Monitoring service. However, he wasn't supposed
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: to be released after four pm, so that's why he
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: went to this other monitoring company in the first place.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: So it's all very like convoluted.
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: And you know, if everyone's playing hot potato at this point,
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: because there's a big fat lawsuit on someone's desk. We've
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: got a judge who is being called into question. We've
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: got a six judges everyone and all eyes are on
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: this town, on this company, on this judge. So everyone's
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: planing you did this, you did this, you did this,
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: And we have very awful situation. We have someone was
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: murdered it wasn't like, oh, someone violated their parole and
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: we didn't really notice. Okay, well we're going to bring
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: them back and we're going to put them, We're going
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: to incarcerate them. It's like there is a very clear
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: victim damage here, like someone died for sure.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: Actually, the CEO of the Tennessee Coalition and Domestic and
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Sexual Violence called this case horrific and preventable, which I
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: think like calling someone's murder preventable. I mean that is
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: like that's big. Yeah, and you can really see it
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: playing out here. Obviously hindsight is twenty twenty, but you know,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: it's devastating.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: It's interesting we don't have the victim's perspective, right, we
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: have this like big vacuum where we don't have any
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: information from her. What she was going through is all
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: through the perspective of the dad. I just wonder, right,
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: like I want to hear her perspective, and it's so
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: awful we won't get it.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how he got her in the
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: car with him, but the security camera at her home
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: had been destroyed, and I imagine that was just harrowing
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: for her to learn that he had been released it's terrible,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: And I think, like I'll be following this lawsuit because
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, what's the hope here at this point when
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: a life has been lost, is that you can affect change, right.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, or that we can learn from it, or that
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: we can feel that there's some sort of justice being served, right,
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: I mean we always try and he's up for capital punishment.
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: Now does that change what happened if that trial, if
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: he does get the death sentence. Yeah, it's at the
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: end of every case, I'm sort of like, did this
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: do anything for us? Like did we find justice today?
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: Like was anyone held accountable? Like I don't have answers,
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: And I think like people look to lawyers, or they
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: look to the court, to the people who are involved
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: in criminal law for answers to feel like there is
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: some sort of resolution. But it is a process, and
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: often at the end we're left with more questions than answers.
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: Oftentimes at the end we're left with an even more
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: unreconciled feeling. Right, it's never black and white what happens
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: in court, and.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the people that have these jobs that are
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: I mean hugely important to the safety of victims, Like
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: someone who is in charge of installing an inkle monitor.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: You know that can be a one man show sometimes, Yeah,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: like how are we monitoring those people? I mean we
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: all want checks and balances, I think in our career
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: because people do make mistakes of course.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's so it's so important to remember that,
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: like everyone in every situation in the justice process is
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: a person who is capable of error. Yeah, and it's like,
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: what do we fucking do with that?
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: So, how do we like a wrap our heads around that?
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: Can we fix that? Is there a way to make
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: it better? Like it is one of these things where
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: it's like if I screw up sometimes in court, like
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: it can be life and death for a client. I
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: have clients who are up for deportation where if they
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: do get deported, they will die.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: Period, There's no question about it. And it's like if
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: I miss that filing deadline and that happens, it's like
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: I will feel awful, right, like that that is my life. Well,
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: I've ruined someone's life. But it's also like can I
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: give myself grace as someone who works in these extreme
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: I have chosen a career where I am at the
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: nexus of life and death for other people. Yeah, if
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: I just grew up and there is like a life
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: or death ramification, at what point do I say, Okay, Michael,
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: you are a person. You are capable of error. Right,
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: at what point do I say, Okay, this is the
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: system that has failed. There's so many other people involved
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: in this. My one little mistake, right, thinking about these
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: people and trying to have compassion for that person who's
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: working three jobs installing an ankle monitor. Like, it's very
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: easy for me to sit here and be like, it's
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: fuck that person that sucks. But it's like, no, I
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: have worked three jobs. Maybe they weren't as critical as
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: like installing ankle monitors, but like I've worked three jobs
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: and forgotten to wait that table or forgotten to like
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: punch that time card. Like, human error happens on any job.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: It happens, and you have to I think, if you're
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: going to be in a position of keeping people safe,
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: which is installing a facal monitor and being aware of
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: release conditions, I don't know. I mean this is me
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: speaking more generally, not about this person in particular, this
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: case in particular, but if that is my job, I
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: don't care what this person tells me or how trustworthy
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: theyse came I want the release conditions first.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: That was like an egregious error.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm not taking someone's word for it,
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: because that is a very very important Jobson, You're talking
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: is so biased, so incentivized to light to you.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: For this ankle monitor. Yeah, that would be what I
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: would say. Like, I'm really curious to see what happens
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: in the civil lawsuit because I think we can based
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: off this evidence here, just like reading as a criminal
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: defense lawyer reading the evidence against him at the criminal trial.
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: I think there is very much a plea deal, or
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: maybe they won't even offer a plea to look over
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: right to trial and he will get sentenced to death.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: But I'm curious to see what happens in Lance's civil suit.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: And how that hopefully motivates them to I don't know
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: what the right word is, to get a more cohesive
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: system together so that it doesn't happen again.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: I also hope that this isn't like a quick settlement
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: where we don't hear anything, like I think Lance has
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: been such a strong victim advocate. My hope is that
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: oftentimes clients it won't be about the money, and that
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: it'll be about dragging them out into the public. It'll
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: be about dragging this case into the light, making them
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: respond to his complaint, right, because when in civil court,
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: when you submit a point, then the defense has to
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: respond in writing their side of the story.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: So I would love it if he held out negotiations
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: because I'm sure they're all at the table right now
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: trying to negotiate to get this lawsuit settled, and with
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: an NDA button it all up, I would love it
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: if he dragged it out to make them respond, to
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: make sure that they have to get on the record
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: with some of this so that there can be some change,
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: so that there can be some reform, so that the
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: public outcry isn't just you know, fizzles out.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I haven't seen anything about the lawsuits since
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: it was filed over the summer. How long do you
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: think these things typically it can take years.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: It can take years. Yeah. I'll come back when we
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: have a when we have a responsible to soul civil breakdown,
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: because I think that there are, it'll be it'll be
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: really interesting. I'm curious to watch.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: Are the two things just so separate? Where like, assuming
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: Bryson Rivers is convicted of murder. Does that ever influence.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: That will be that will be evidence that would be
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: a part of that soue.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, so it's possible that they might wait.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they might wait to see what happens. And sometimes
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: those lawyers work together, Okay, So they'll partner together, and
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: that the prosecutor's office will be letting Lancen write because
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Lance is probably a witness in the criminal trial. He's
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: also filing this suit. The prosecutors will probably be working
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: with the civil attorneys like they have. It's mutually beneficial
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: for them to be communicating, Okay, So yeah, the attorneys
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: in civil court will be probably communicating with the prosecutors.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, Well we'll have to be looking out for
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: an update then. And Michael, thank you so much for
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: being here today and going through this like yeah, I
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: mean going through this like incredibly difficult case. And obviously
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: it's a huge tragedy and a colossal loss for Lauren's
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: family and everyone who loved her. And I think, you know,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: all we can hope now is that the civil lawsuit
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: brings some change, prevents us from happening again.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we try and find some sort of justice in
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: this tragedy. Right, it's so hard to find some sort
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: of resolution that feels satisfying for everyone involved because you
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: can't bring her back. Right.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: I was really just a listener this time around on
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: this podcast, and I have to say I loved listening
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: to it. I thought you guys did such a good job,
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: and Michael was so additive to this case. He has
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: great energy, and I loved how he weighed in as
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: you went through the case and talked about all of
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: the details. I loved his insights about the legal process
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: and all of the things that he brought up, like
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: whenever you mentioned Lauren calling her parents, which ended up
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: being a possibly life saving call at that time. Obviously
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: it goes on to become like very tragic, but in
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: that moment that call, Michael flagged this is probably going
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: to be really key evidence at trial, you know, just
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: flagging potential evidence as you went along. I mean, obviously
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: the trial hasn't happened yet, so we shall see what happens.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: But I thought his insight was really invaluable there. Yeah,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: he also I think really connected the dots for me
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: and maybe for some of our listeners like me who
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: were less familiar with like the ins and outs of
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: what a bonding agency really does and how this functions
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: and our justice system and where it all fell apart here.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, that was super helpful. You know, this story
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: is like, it's truly heartbreaking because it does feel preventable,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: and we owe victims of domestic violence protection from their
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: abusers and it didn't happen here, and so that was
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: a failure absolutely, And you know, Michael also spoke about
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: how this bond system just isn't perfect. There's a lot
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: of inequity because certain people can afford bond and certain
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: people can't. And just because you've been arrested doesn't mean
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: you're guilty. You know, a lot of evidence, in my opinion,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: is pointing to Bryson Rivers in this case. I feel
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: confident he'll be convicted. But for the zillions of other
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: people in prison for things that maybe they didn't do,
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: you know, a bond can prevent you from being released. Yeah,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: it's so tricky, right, because we don't want dangerous people
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: roaming the streets if they've done something violent. You know,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: there's this idea of like it's better for them to
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: be behind bars, like with Bryson River in this in
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: this store, you can see how his release led to
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Lauren's death. At the same time, You're right, it's like
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: you're innocent until proven guilty, and so holding someone without
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: bond that's like determined by a judge a lot of
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: the time, and it can be a really unfair system
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: because some people are given the opportunity for bond, but
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: they can't afford it, so then they're just sitting in prison.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: So you know, I've heard some people say we should
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: abolish the bond system and just not have any bond.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: But then it's like, well, then what do you do.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: Do you just not hold people or do you hold everybody?
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: And then you're gonna get into the situation where people
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: are just sitting in prison for potential years and then
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: maybe they're proven not guilty. Yeah, And I mean I
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: have to imagine that if you work at a bonding
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: agency and someone has a high bond, I have to
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: imagine that that means their charges call for that because
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: they're dangerous. Like in the case of Bryce and Rivers,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: he'd been arrested on really serious offenses before his release,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: and that high bond, in my mind at least, should
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: have triggered people to really cross their t's and dot
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: their eyes and make sure that he was abiding by
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: those release conditions which didn't happen here. Well, it makes
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: you think, like setting a really high bond, the idea
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: being this person probably won't be able to pay this bond,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: so they'll stay in jail for the time being, why
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: don't you just not give them the option? You know,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: it's like, are they this violent? Are they two million
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: dollars worth of violent? To where if they pay us
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: two million dollars, it's okay, We're willing to risk it. Yeah,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: Like the whole system actually is pretty absurd when you
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: really break it down totally. I mean, he should have,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: in my opinion, never been released, and I can't imagine
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: anyone disagreeing with that. It's like I heard about this
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: case right when the story came out, and I just
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: kept thinking, surely I'm missing something like this is these
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: people's whole job. But another thing Michael said, which I've
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: heard before, is like, you know a lot of places
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: the legal system it's really being held together by like
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: paper clips, and you know, it's at the heart is
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: just people. And depending on how much funding there is,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: depending on a lot of different factors. There's errors that
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: are made. Yeah, and I don't have all the answers here,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: but it just seems like there should be this, and
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: maybe there is, and that failed here too, But it
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: was like, this is so serious, this is life and death,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: and it shouldn't come back to like one person didn't
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: send the release conditions to one other person. It should
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: be like multiple check and balances at every step of
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: the way. I mean, just the fact that his release
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: happened after four pm, like that in and of itself
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: should have stopped all of this, but there were many
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: other things and people in play that could have stopped
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: it and didn't. And so not that they're criminally negligent
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: for that, but it is. It's just incredibly sad. And
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: so Bryce and Rivers stands trial in twenty twenty six
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: right now, and you know, I'm sure Michael and I
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: will keep in touch about it.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: I have to say too, Life three sixty that came
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: up again in this. Yeah, we we have another episode
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: that this came up in, and I was like, these
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: episodes are basically an ad for Life three sixty an app.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: I was really unfamiliar with that app. I don't know
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: if I've been living under a rock. I mean, I'm
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: familiar with location sharing, but this is the second time
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: it's come up. I had heard of Life three sixty
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: before in parent groups, and I totally see how it
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: would appeal to someone to have their kids location twenty
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: four to seven. So it's basically just a location sharing
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: app as far as we know. That's my understanding of it,
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: and it sounds like it was instrumental in saving Lauren's
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: life in the initial attack.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, whether it's Life three sixty or another app, it's
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: interesting that these location sharing apps have really started to
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: come up in episodes that we've been covering. Yeah, it
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: can be really like life saving totally. Well, Michael is
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: such a force. We were so happy to have him
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: on the show, and as you said, we'll definitely continue
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: to follow up with him about this case and maybe
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: have an update for you all in the new year.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: You can check out Brief Recess, hosted by Michael Foot
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: and Melissa male Branch wherever you get your podcasts. If
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: you have a story for us, we would love to
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: hear it. Our email is the Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast. This has
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: been an exactly right production, Hosted and produced by me
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: Hannah Smith and me Paytia Eaton.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi. This episode
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.