Latest / Unshaken & Unafraid with Joe Pags / Gordon Chang: Xi Jinping Told Trump America Is Already Finished — And He Meant It - Trump Didn't Flinch

Transcript

Gordon Chang: Xi Jinping Told Trump America Is Already Finished — And He Meant It - Trump Didn't Flinch · Unshaken & Unafraid with Joe Pags

0:00
Speaker 1: He said it to his face. Chi Jinping sat across
0:02
Speaker 1: from President Donald Trump in Beijing and to his face said,
0:07
Speaker 1: America is already finished. China expert Gordon Chang to cause
0:10
Speaker 1: those words for you and me, He's going to break
0:12
Speaker 1: it down right here, and he says. The way the
0:14
Speaker 1: President responded was very smart. What did you make of
0:18
Speaker 1: the ceremony when he got there? Was that something that
0:20
Speaker 1: you normally would see when there's a big state visit
0:23
Speaker 1: or is this something extra for the United States?
0:26
Speaker 2: Is actually I thought a little skimpy really, But if
0:29
Speaker 2: you go back to compare it with twenty seventeen, which
0:33
Speaker 2: I haven't had a chance to do, but I think
0:36
Speaker 2: that it was a little bit toned down. But we'll
0:40
Speaker 2: have to check and see.
0:42
Speaker 1: It was interesting to see it because the President then
0:44
Speaker 1: was taken around to different sort of stations where the
0:47
Speaker 1: kids were yelling, and then you had the military this,
0:48
Speaker 1: and other people were doing something else. He walked through
0:51
Speaker 1: and shook the hands of the dignitaries from China, and
0:54
Speaker 1: then she came and shook the hands of the dignitaries
0:56
Speaker 1: from the United States Again. Did that all seem like
0:58
Speaker 1: standard operating procedure?
1:00
Speaker 2: Less that was. I mean that ceremony was actually quite
1:04
Speaker 2: good for the president, and it was quite big, and
1:07
Speaker 2: it was it was a delight to see.
1:10
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what she wanted out of this meeting.
1:13
Speaker 1: Clearly he wants something, and you and I have talked
1:15
Speaker 1: about I think you're the only person telling the truth
1:17
Speaker 1: here that she is in trouble. He's trying to save
1:19
Speaker 1: his rear end as the leader less he may be
1:22
Speaker 1: exiled or worse. So what did he want to accomplish?
1:25
Speaker 1: And did he get there?
1:29
Speaker 2: Did he get there? This is fascinating because you know,
1:32
Speaker 2: most US China summits are camned. In other words, everything
1:37
Speaker 2: has decided in advance. Well, this one wasn't. And we
1:42
Speaker 2: really won't know for quite some time, weeks, maybe months,
1:46
Speaker 2: about what really occurred. And this I think was an
1:48
Speaker 2: important enough summit so that historians will argue about this
1:52
Speaker 2: and dissect it and analyze it for quite a long time.
1:57
Speaker 2: I think what cjen Ping wanted were a couple of things.
2:00
Speaker 2: He needed access to the US market because he has
2:03
Speaker 2: turned his back on consumption, which means that his only
2:06
Speaker 2: way of achieving growth is to export more. And the
2:11
Speaker 2: US accounts for thirty one thirty two percent of global consumption,
2:16
Speaker 2: so weak American consumers are really important to China's future.
2:20
Speaker 2: In other words, Cijenping has placed the future of the
2:22
Speaker 2: Communist Party in our hands. The other thing that he
2:26
Speaker 2: wants is the strait of Horror moves open, because he
2:28
Speaker 2: gets somewhere between forty five to fifty percent of his
2:31
Speaker 2: imported seaboard oil through that critical choke point, and right
2:36
Speaker 2: now it's basically closed. And the third thing he wanted
2:40
Speaker 2: to do, and this is evident from his behavior, is
2:43
Speaker 2: he wanted to humiliate the President of the United States.
2:46
Speaker 2: We know that because on Thursday, in his public remarks
2:51
Speaker 2: in front of the cameras, in front of President Trump himself,
2:55
Speaker 2: he made two references. One was to the New Era
2:59
Speaker 2: and the the other was to the Thucidities Trap. The
3:03
Speaker 2: Thucidities trap is a reference to a declining Hegimen who
3:08
Speaker 2: dangerously confronts a rising power. This goes back to the
3:12
Speaker 2: Peloponnesian Wars, and it was really an unfriendly remark. But
3:18
Speaker 2: even worse was the comment about New Era, because while
3:22
Speaker 2: the Thucidities Trap talks about a declining Hegimen, a new
3:27
Speaker 2: era refers to a period where the United States has
3:30
Speaker 2: been completely shoved off the stage and where China dominates
3:33
Speaker 2: or maybe even rules the world. So that was not good.
3:38
Speaker 2: That was Thursday. On Friday, when Trump went to jung
3:42
Speaker 2: Nan High which is the leadership compound in the center
3:45
Speaker 2: of Beijing. You had those two chairs. Siejimping's chair was higher.
3:50
Speaker 2: That forced President Trump to sit in an awkward way,
3:53
Speaker 2: and that showed you. I think that Sigmping not only
3:57
Speaker 2: had the sort of an ill intent, he also was
4:01
Speaker 2: insecure because that's a silly game for a leader to play,
4:05
Speaker 2: and I think it showed a deep problems inside the
4:09
Speaker 2: Communist Party for doing something like that.
4:12
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you said all that, and I'm so
4:14
Speaker 1: glad that you spelled it out the way that you
4:15
Speaker 1: did because I've got a million questions that go along
4:17
Speaker 1: with it. By the way, go and get Gordon's book.
4:19
Speaker 1: It's called Playing Red. It's available now, gordonshang dot com,
4:22
Speaker 1: go get it where great books are sold. You're gonna
4:25
Speaker 1: love it. So I noticed because I know how tall
4:28
Speaker 1: the president is. I'm six to one, he's about six
4:30
Speaker 1: two and a half. I've stood next to him. He's
4:31
Speaker 1: a little bit taller than I am. I don't know
4:34
Speaker 1: that Cheshaping is that tall. I felt like he might
4:36
Speaker 1: have been wearing some lifts in his shoes when they
4:38
Speaker 1: got together. I've seen them together before. Trump seemed to
4:41
Speaker 1: have a little height on him. This time he didn't.
4:43
Speaker 1: It seemed like he was actually trying to make himself
4:46
Speaker 1: look bigger than he really is. And I didn't notice
4:49
Speaker 1: the whole chair game. But that makes a lot of sense.
4:51
Speaker 1: But isn't that kind of juvenile Gordon? I mean, does
4:53
Speaker 1: the world community really look at that and say, oh, look,
4:56
Speaker 1: he's sitting higher than him. He must be more important
4:57
Speaker 1: than he is. Is that something that he's playing the
5:00
Speaker 1: game in his own head or is that really important
5:01
Speaker 1: somehow in that culture?
5:03
Speaker 2: Well, for sie Jimping, I think that it was important
5:07
Speaker 2: to him because they did it, and this is uh,
5:12
Speaker 2: you know, this was an attempt to make the American
5:14
Speaker 2: president look small because you could see Trump was sort
5:16
Speaker 2: of awkward in that lower position. Yes, you know, c
5:20
Speaker 2: Jimping is very concerned about how he appears. Remember you
5:25
Speaker 2: go back to and I forget exactly when it was,
5:28
Speaker 2: but it must have been. Well, it was during Obama's
5:32
Speaker 2: first term where you had the our president and Si
5:36
Speaker 2: Jimping walks side by side. You know, Obama is slim tall,
5:42
Speaker 2: Si Jimping is portly. And that's where the Winnie the
5:46
Speaker 2: Pooh narrative or memes started, where the citizens.
5:51
Speaker 1: I can't see that in the way when you look
5:52
Speaker 1: at the guy, he sort of has the body of
5:53
Speaker 1: Winny the Pooh. I hear you go ahead.
5:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, Winnie the Poo now has been
5:59
Speaker 2: banned from China, as you can imagine, because of these
6:03
Speaker 2: unfavorable comparisons between Obama and c So, yeah, this is
6:07
Speaker 2: really important stuff for the Chinese. And you know, after Thursday,
6:11
Speaker 2: I was a bit concerned about what the Chinese were
6:14
Speaker 2: doing because of course it shows their arrogance, and yes
6:16
Speaker 2: they are arrogant, but when it came to Friday and
6:19
Speaker 2: that chair business, it just showed how petty the Chinese
6:22
Speaker 2: are and how deeply unsure of themselves. So I think
6:27
Speaker 2: that Trump handled it well. He well a couple things
6:34
Speaker 2: he was He did not reply on Thursday night when
6:37
Speaker 2: Sigim Pink was sending those verbal missiles. Trump did say
6:42
Speaker 2: untrue social Thursday, well, Sigim Pink was referring to Biden,
6:46
Speaker 2: but no, he was referring to the United States of America,
6:50
Speaker 2: and as Jack Prosobic said, mister President Biden wasn't in
6:55
Speaker 2: the room, and so you know, I think most Americans
6:59
Speaker 2: are many Americans would like to have seen a more
7:00
Speaker 2: robust response from Trump, but Trump not actually doing that,
7:05
Speaker 2: I think showed confidence that he just sort of sluffed
7:07
Speaker 2: it off. So in a way, in Trump's way, he
7:12
Speaker 2: dealt with it. But I'm sure Trump is going to
7:14
Speaker 2: get back at him because Trump does not take personal
7:18
Speaker 2: slights lightly, and clearly Sejimpeing was out to do that.
7:22
Speaker 1: It is Gordon Chang. Go get his book. It's called
7:24
Speaker 1: Play Red and it's an amazing read. Go to Gordonscheng
7:27
Speaker 1: dot com. Go follow him on all the social media
7:29
Speaker 1: as well. It's not just Gordon Cheng, it's Gordon g.
7:32
Speaker 1: Chang over on x Is that what it is.
7:34
Speaker 2: It's Gordon G. Chang right G O R D O
7:37
Speaker 2: N G C H A N G.
7:39
Speaker 1: Go follow him right now. He's an amazing follow Do
7:42
Speaker 1: you think the President realized he was being humiliated at
7:44
Speaker 1: the moment it was happening. And here's why I asked.
7:47
Speaker 1: When they first met, they spoke and there were no
7:49
Speaker 1: translators nearby, So I guess Ping speaks some English. He must,
7:53
Speaker 1: because they definitely we were relating to each other on
7:55
Speaker 1: some level. Then you had Trump's a translator showed up,
7:59
Speaker 1: and then had his translators show up, and everything else
8:02
Speaker 1: was sort of translated. Is it clear what he's saying
8:05
Speaker 1: these things that are kind of lofty in his way
8:08
Speaker 1: of insulting. I mean, if you don't know exactly what
8:10
Speaker 1: he's talking about, because you had to make reference to
8:12
Speaker 1: it to me and explain what it meant, you wouldn't
8:14
Speaker 1: know that he's talking about the decline of this one
8:16
Speaker 1: and the rising of the other one and that you're
8:17
Speaker 1: no longer important. Did Trump know at that moment that
8:21
Speaker 1: he was being insulted or no?
8:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that he did, certainly through Siddy's trap,
8:28
Speaker 2: because that has been something that has sort of gotten
8:32
Speaker 2: common currency in the United States. And by the way,
8:36
Speaker 2: I think that that theory is awful. It misreads the situation.
8:43
Speaker 2: I don't know about New Era. New Era is very subtle,
8:47
Speaker 2: and you have to follow. If you have nothing better
8:49
Speaker 2: with your life, which is me, you have to follow
8:52
Speaker 2: what these guys say. But just to give you an example,
8:55
Speaker 2: why New Era is so insulting. You go back to
9:01
Speaker 2: March of twenty twenty three when Sigimping was bidding farewell
9:04
Speaker 2: to Vladimir Putin in Moscow after the end of their
9:07
Speaker 2: fortieth in person chat, and the Chinese leader turned to
9:10
Speaker 2: the Russian one and said, quote, change is occurring that
9:14
Speaker 2: hasn't happened in one hundred years. And we remember he's
9:18
Speaker 2: talking to Putin, and then he says, and we are
9:21
Speaker 2: driving this change together. And that's the New Era meme.
9:25
Speaker 2: So it is very, very insulting. So that one, I
9:30
Speaker 2: don't know if Trump caught, but you know, it doesn't
9:34
Speaker 2: matter what Trump knew at the time. He knows it now. Yeah,
9:39
Speaker 2: And I think that it means that Trump will in
9:42
Speaker 2: some way stand up for us.
9:46
Speaker 1: It's Gordon Chang, Gatestone Institute Senior fellow. Go to Gordonschang
9:49
Speaker 1: dot com and again Gordon G. Chang over on X.
9:52
Speaker 1: He can insult Trump all he wants. The facts are
9:55
Speaker 1: the facts. You and I have talked about this extensively.
9:57
Speaker 1: What we did or what the United States did Venezuela
10:00
Speaker 1: hurt China big time. What we're doing now in Iran
10:04
Speaker 1: is hurting China big time. The economy in China, as
10:06
Speaker 1: you alluded to at the beginning of this interview, and
10:08
Speaker 1: I hope that you'll expand on that a little bit,
10:10
Speaker 1: is suffering because the president is using the leverage in
10:13
Speaker 1: the cards that he has, and he's using them very well.
10:15
Speaker 1: So you can call him an orange man if you want.
10:17
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what the insult is. The fact is
10:19
Speaker 1: the moves that Trump has made have exponentially hurt China, Iran, Russia,
10:25
Speaker 1: Cuba named the bad guy on the planet from our perspective,
10:29
Speaker 1: and Trump has made a move that has hurt them.
10:31
Speaker 1: So doesn't ping have to work with Trump on some
10:34
Speaker 1: level to save his own skin?
10:36
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, I mean just think about this year. Well,
10:40
Speaker 2: to even more context, you go back last year. You know,
10:43
Speaker 2: the elite opinion was that the authoritarian totalitarian states were
10:48
Speaker 2: pushing around the democracies and democracy was in retreat. Yes,
10:52
Speaker 2: So what happens on January three, in one of the
10:55
Speaker 2: most stunning military operations of all time, Trump extracts Maduro
11:00
Speaker 2: and his wife from Caracas. And then you have Iran
11:05
Speaker 2: as we all know about, and Cuba is being pressured.
11:09
Speaker 2: Before that, you had Panama, where Trump is starting to
11:13
Speaker 2: remove the Chinese from the canal zone. So this is
11:16
Speaker 2: occurring in the Western hemisphere where the United States is
11:20
Speaker 2: removing Chinese influence. And by the way, you had and
11:24
Speaker 2: the elites don't really think about this, but Trump, through
11:29
Speaker 2: his stunning maneuvers in the golf, had been removing China
11:33
Speaker 2: from the Middle East. That triumphant may Tour of last
11:37
Speaker 2: year just amazing. What has happened since then, Syria has
11:41
Speaker 2: been taking off the board as a Chinese friend and
11:43
Speaker 2: is now very much wants to be part of the
11:46
Speaker 2: American orbit. The Gulf States they certainly support this war.
11:51
Speaker 2: Matter of fact, they're more warlike than President Trump has been.
11:55
Speaker 2: So and now we're talking about more Abraham Accords. By
11:59
Speaker 2: the way, if the Nobel Committee were actually fair, they
12:03
Speaker 2: would have given him the Nobel Peace Prize for the
12:05
Speaker 2: Abraham Accords of the first term. But of course, I
12:09
Speaker 2: mean those were just amazing. But what we have right
12:13
Speaker 2: now is Trump continuing to push the Chinese out of
12:17
Speaker 2: a critical part of the world. So yeah, Si Jimping,
12:21
Speaker 2: I think you know, he's a bystander. He couldn't do
12:23
Speaker 2: anything about this except for supply some arms to the Iranians,
12:27
Speaker 2: which probably did not have a material effect. So Trump
12:32
Speaker 2: right now is driving events. And I really wish people
12:35
Speaker 2: in the United States, whether they like Trump or not,
12:38
Speaker 2: they got to give the guy credit for doing things,
12:41
Speaker 2: and they'd not. And that's why we got a lot
12:44
Speaker 2: of these narratives from New York and Washington about how
12:47
Speaker 2: the United States has lost the Iran War and the
12:50
Speaker 2: China is beating the crap out of us. But actually
12:53
Speaker 2: it's the opposite. That's true. And you know, there's a
12:56
Speaker 2: lot of things I don't like about Trump policy, but
12:58
Speaker 2: you got to give the guy a lot of credit
13:01
Speaker 2: for doing things that everybody thought were inconceivable.
13:05
Speaker 1: It's Gordon Chang going go to Gordon Chang dot com
13:08
Speaker 1: or Gordon g. Chang over on X get his book.
13:10
Speaker 1: So when we talk about China's influence, I'm hearing a
13:13
Speaker 1: lot about China doing something on a massive level in Africa.
13:17
Speaker 1: Is China trying to take over Africa without us even noticing?
13:21
Speaker 2: Well, I guess we're noticing, but yes, China's trying to
13:25
Speaker 2: take over.
13:25
Speaker 1: What's the plan?
13:27
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, the plan goes back to actually Mao Zadungan,
13:30
Speaker 2: the founding of the People's Republic, when Mao was contending
13:33
Speaker 2: with Stalin for control of the communist world. Mao saw
13:39
Speaker 2: Africa as a rich sort of votes in the UN
13:42
Speaker 2: General Assembly. So China has devoted enormous amount of energy
13:48
Speaker 2: and resources to Africa and it shows Africa is, you know,
13:54
Speaker 2: very much in China's orbit, and that was our fault.
13:58
Speaker 1: We will the business about UN vote. I mean, that's
14:00
Speaker 1: that's actually, that's so sinister, that that's really smart. Wait,
14:04
Speaker 1: they would do this just to have power at the UN.
14:07
Speaker 2: That was a large part of the motivation for Mausaca
14:10
Speaker 2: because he wanted control of the Third World. He wanted
14:12
Speaker 2: to be able to influence the UN. So he worked
14:16
Speaker 2: a lot with Africa. And you know, as a foreign
14:19
Speaker 2: policy initiative, it's paid off, so they get they've been
14:23
Speaker 2: very effective there. And Africa is far more important than
14:27
Speaker 2: Americans think. If you look at demography, if you look
14:30
Speaker 2: at if you look at economic development, Africa is a
14:34
Speaker 2: hotspot and we Americans have chosen not to notice.
14:37
Speaker 1: It's very strange, that's for sure, But wow, these people
14:40
Speaker 1: really do like they set their goal on something and
14:42
Speaker 1: they don't care if it takes a couple of centuries.
14:44
Speaker 1: We're going to get it done. And I think that's
14:45
Speaker 1: what we don't understand as Americans either. We are, you know,
14:48
Speaker 1: instant gratification people, and we think that we've got to
14:50
Speaker 1: solve the problem whatever it happens to be in the
14:52
Speaker 1: next year, or else we're going to vote your ass out.
14:55
Speaker 1: I mean, when it comes to China, it's not that
14:57
Speaker 1: different than the Islamis from the Middle East. They will
15:00
Speaker 1: wait centuries, won't they.
15:02
Speaker 2: Yes, But you know, and that's that's all. That's all
15:05
Speaker 2: of that is true. But Si Jimping has been making
15:08
Speaker 2: some pretty short term decisions recently, and Trump has been
15:11
Speaker 2: making some long term decisions. So this is this is
15:16
Speaker 2: important to see that the United States democracies, by the way,
15:20
Speaker 2: have a hard time maintaining consistent foreign policies because we
15:23
Speaker 2: got elections. Yes, but Trump has been making some long
15:27
Speaker 2: term decisions, decisions that were not popular in the short run,
15:32
Speaker 2: but which are I believe are good for America in
15:34
Speaker 2: the long term. And Sijimping has been making some really
15:38
Speaker 2: bad short term decisions. So you know, we say, well,
15:41
Speaker 2: we got elections every two and four years, and that's
15:43
Speaker 2: absolutely true, but Sijenping is an election every day. He's
15:47
Speaker 2: very happy if he wakes up alive. So we've got
15:51
Speaker 2: a much better system, even though it's harder for us
15:53
Speaker 2: to maintain a consistent foreign policy than it is for
15:56
Speaker 2: the Chinese.
15:57
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a it's about him saving his own life. Basically,
16:00
Speaker 1: if he's kicked out, he's done. How does it work? Yes, Gordon,
16:03
Speaker 1: if they were to push him out and he would
16:05
Speaker 1: go into exile whatever that means, because we never see
16:07
Speaker 1: these people again. Who's in line? Is there somebody in waiting?
16:10
Speaker 1: There's an a vice president?
16:12
Speaker 2: Is there? Here's a vice president, but he's a non entity. Yeah,
16:17
Speaker 2: we don't know what would happen. Just to give you
16:20
Speaker 2: a little bit of background, you know, mounts It Dong
16:23
Speaker 2: founder of People's Republic, completely crazy, no rules. His successor,
16:28
Speaker 2: gungshall Ping, came in and tried to normalize the Communist Party,
16:32
Speaker 2: so they developed rules, guidelines, you know, all sorts of
16:36
Speaker 2: understandings about succession. And a lot of Western analysts just
16:40
Speaker 2: gushed over that because they said that China solved the
16:43
Speaker 2: one problem that no other hardline state had been able
16:47
Speaker 2: to deal with, and that is being able to transfer
16:50
Speaker 2: power from one to another. And from the outside, it
16:52
Speaker 2: sort of looked that way, not really, and that's a
16:55
Speaker 2: long that's more than you want to hear. But Siejeanping
16:58
Speaker 2: comes in grabs power from everybody else, deinstitutionalizes the Communist Party.
17:03
Speaker 2: So that means we have no idea what's going to
17:06
Speaker 2: happen after c Jan Ping because he has broken all
17:09
Speaker 2: those rules on succession.
17:11
Speaker 1: How did he get power? How did that even happen?
17:15
Speaker 2: Part of it is because he was chosen because he
17:19
Speaker 2: was a strong man. His predecessor, Hu Jintao was sort
17:23
Speaker 2: of the very consensus oriented, but there was a feeling
17:27
Speaker 2: that China was drifting, and so when the elders got
17:30
Speaker 2: together to spick who is going to be the leader
17:33
Speaker 2: after who, they said, we're going to take this strong man.
17:38
Speaker 2: Little did they know that cig and Ping was going
17:40
Speaker 2: to break all the rules and so they got more
17:43
Speaker 2: than they bargained for. And so we now have a
17:46
Speaker 2: situation where China is back to sort of like the
17:49
Speaker 2: Maoist era in a sense.
17:51
Speaker 1: Back to the video in a moment, got to tell
17:52
Speaker 1: you about our sponsor for this one. It's Modern Rugged.
17:54
Speaker 1: You've got to get one of these modern rugged bags.
17:56
Speaker 1: From city streets to mountain trails. Your gear should go
18:00
Speaker 1: anywhere and wherever your life takes you. I've got one
18:02
Speaker 1: of these bags and it is a beautiful leatherback, smells incredible,
18:06
Speaker 1: it's thick, it's strong. It is a called Modern Rugged.
18:09
Speaker 1: You gotta go to modern rugged dot com right now
18:11
Speaker 1: to check these out. It's responsibly sourced leather. It's hand
18:15
Speaker 1: crafted from that premium product, designed to look sharp, last long,
18:19
Speaker 1: tell a story of its own. Every single stitch, every
18:22
Speaker 1: single buckle, end strap reflects timeless craftsmanship and is backed
18:27
Speaker 1: by a lifetime warranty. How do you beat that? Whether
18:30
Speaker 1: it's the boardroom with the back roads, take it with
18:32
Speaker 1: you like I do. Modern Rugged leather helps you carry
18:35
Speaker 1: confidence in every single step of the way. Modern Rugged leather,
18:39
Speaker 1: modern style, timeless durability, backed for life. Modern Rugged dot Com.
18:44
Speaker 1: Modern Rugged dot Com again, Modern Rugged dot Com. You'd
18:48
Speaker 1: be glad you you went and got one of these
18:50
Speaker 1: because it is just top quality for a price. You're
18:53
Speaker 1: gonna like Modern Rugged dot Com. Now back to the video,
18:57
Speaker 1: and all.
18:57
Speaker 2: Those people who gushed over China's development of institutionalized politics,
19:03
Speaker 2: well they all look naive.
19:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, because we tried to act like everybody is American.
19:11
Speaker 1: And I'll give you an example, we might have talked
19:13
Speaker 1: about this before when we were talking about Fallujah in
19:16
Speaker 1: Iraq or some other really horrible hotspot in one of
19:19
Speaker 1: those wars, either the Iraq or the Afghanistan War. I'll
19:22
Speaker 1: never forget. Obama looked at a camera and a microphone
19:25
Speaker 1: and told the American people it's a city not unlike Charlotte,
19:29
Speaker 1: North Carolina. I'm like, dude, it's nothing like Charlotte North
19:32
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? And I guess he meant
19:33
Speaker 1: the size of it or the population of it. But
19:35
Speaker 1: they were trying to americanize what it was that we
19:38
Speaker 1: were doing over there, when the mentality and just the
19:41
Speaker 1: centuries of orientation in these other places are nothing like us.
19:46
Speaker 1: Do you find that to be a problem here in
19:48
Speaker 1: the West that we tried to somehow americanize or a
19:50
Speaker 1: British eye something that's happening in a country far away
19:54
Speaker 1: that doesn't think at all like us.
19:57
Speaker 2: That's China. Yeah, And there's just so many examples, and
20:02
Speaker 2: that's to our detriment. We don't understand, we should understand
20:06
Speaker 2: what the Chinese system is. It's obvious. They don't hide this.
20:11
Speaker 2: They come out and they tell us what their system is.
20:13
Speaker 2: And we absolutely refuse to believe it. So this is
20:17
Speaker 2: this is a really dangerous situation, Joe, because we've got
20:21
Speaker 2: to start thinking like the Chinese. And just one example
20:24
Speaker 2: from the summit, you know Trump, this is not just Trump,
20:29
Speaker 2: it's like everybody else. They say, well, you know, we
20:31
Speaker 2: got to develop to friendships with Chinese leaders. Well, no,
20:35
Speaker 2: Chinese leaders don't think friendships are important. They may like Trump,
20:39
Speaker 2: they may hate them, It does not matter to the
20:41
Speaker 2: way they deal with them, because they are ruthlessly pragmatic,
20:45
Speaker 2: and so friendship has nothing to do with it. You know.
20:49
Speaker 2: It's but you know, we're Americans, so we think that
20:51
Speaker 2: that relationships are important. No, they're not not to the Chinese.
20:55
Speaker 2: They may be to us, but they're not. They don't
20:58
Speaker 2: think like us. They're a system operates very differently than
21:01
Speaker 2: our stups.
21:02
Speaker 1: Well, that seems to be the mistake that Obama made
21:05
Speaker 1: with John Kerry in the lead for some reason, with Iran.
21:08
Speaker 1: And we're gonna give Iran one point six billion on palates,
21:10
Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna unfree during Biden six point six
21:13
Speaker 1: billion more, and Iran then will be our friends and
21:16
Speaker 1: they won't act out. Well, of course, they took that money,
21:18
Speaker 1: did more terrorism, killed more people, and a lot of
21:21
Speaker 1: them their own people. So I mean that's the mentality.
21:23
Speaker 1: Either we want to make the American people believe that
21:27
Speaker 1: all of these other entities think like us, and then
21:29
Speaker 1: we normalize it or americanize it, and then when they
21:32
Speaker 1: kill us, we go why are you killing us? Or
21:33
Speaker 1: then when they do unfair trade practice, we say, why
21:36
Speaker 1: are you doing that? I thought that we were friends.
21:38
Speaker 1: So that is the issue. So I think people should
21:40
Speaker 1: learn more about China from playing Red. Go and get
21:42
Speaker 1: the book right now, it's Gordon Chang, Gordon g Chang
21:45
Speaker 1: over on X get the book called Plan Red. When
21:49
Speaker 1: the president goes there, is there an expectation that we
21:52
Speaker 1: will let me go back a little bit. Because when
21:54
Speaker 1: I was in Beijing and Guanzhou in other places, when
21:57
Speaker 1: I adopted my daughter Jiya, I knew I didn't have
22:00
Speaker 1: constitutional rights. I knew I was probably being surveiled. I
22:04
Speaker 1: was a guy who had a voice on the radio.
22:05
Speaker 1: Here they knew who I was, and we always had
22:07
Speaker 1: a couple of people in suits with us almost everywhere
22:10
Speaker 1: we went. Did Trump have an expectation that he could
22:13
Speaker 1: go there and beat Trump and do any do the
22:15
Speaker 1: American way while he was there, because we're hearing stories
22:18
Speaker 1: about the media was locked off in a separate room.
22:20
Speaker 1: We're hearing stories that Secret Service couldn't carry their firearm
22:23
Speaker 1: to go and protect people as they were on the
22:25
Speaker 1: Trump detail or on the media detail. Did Trump have
22:27
Speaker 1: a different understanding that he would be able to beat
22:29
Speaker 1: Trump and not have to go by the Chinese rules
22:32
Speaker 1: because it seems like everybody other than Trump was treated
22:34
Speaker 1: pretty badly.
22:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know what's in the president's head.
22:39
Speaker 2: But but Trump actually was Trump was Trump, and he
22:43
Speaker 2: up ended the table on Siege and Pink. Now, I'm
22:46
Speaker 2: not a great fan of I didn't think Trump should go.
22:49
Speaker 2: I'm not a great fan of the summit. But Trump
22:51
Speaker 2: did some really good things on this summit. So, for instance,
22:55
Speaker 2: he was going to sit down and have a conversation
22:57
Speaker 2: with Siege and Pink, and then Trump says, well, you know,
23:00
Speaker 2: I've got all these seventeen CEOs in the next room,
23:03
Speaker 2: Let's bring him in. And this was not on the plant.
23:06
Speaker 2: And Trump got his way, and those CEOs came in
23:09
Speaker 2: and they talked, and I'm sure that unsettled sigem Ping
23:13
Speaker 2: and I think eliminated a lot of the home court
23:16
Speaker 2: advantage that the Chinese leader had. So you know, this
23:19
Speaker 2: is great. This is Trump being Trump and he was
23:23
Speaker 2: able to I think at least get sigemping on the
23:27
Speaker 2: back foot.
23:28
Speaker 1: It is Gordon Shang, So I mean, okay, good, Trump
23:31
Speaker 1: was Trump, and I'm glad that you outlined exactly what
23:34
Speaker 1: he was able to do. What about the treatment of
23:35
Speaker 1: everybody else? Is that surprising to you or not?
23:38
Speaker 2: No, I mean they played all sorts of silly games
23:42
Speaker 2: with Obama, for instance, when he went there. It's just
23:47
Speaker 2: the way they operate. So you know, we should have
23:51
Speaker 2: expected that.
23:53
Speaker 1: It's Gordon Chang. Let me ask you something about what
23:56
Speaker 1: President Trump had to say about the Chinese students that
23:58
Speaker 1: are here. Five hundred fouls and estimated Chinese students here,
24:02
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was twenty seventeen. They passed
24:04
Speaker 1: some rule in China that if you go to the
24:06
Speaker 1: United States or anywhere else abroad, you've got to report
24:08
Speaker 1: back to the government. So you've got five hundred thousand
24:10
Speaker 1: potential spies here. We have I think between seven hundred
24:13
Speaker 1: and two thousand Americans studying in China, so it's not
24:16
Speaker 1: even close to being balanced. And the President seems to
24:19
Speaker 1: want the Chinese students here. What are your thoughts on that.
24:23
Speaker 2: No, they shouldn't be here, and they certainly shouldn't increase them.
24:27
Speaker 2: And there are a couple of reasons, and a very
24:30
Speaker 2: basic one is you know, Trump says, well, let's have
24:32
Speaker 2: more Chinese students here because otherwise American colleges and universities
24:36
Speaker 2: would go out of business. Whatever one thinks of that argument,
24:41
Speaker 2: got to remember that our colleges and universities their primary
24:45
Speaker 2: mission should be educating Americans, and every spot taken by
24:49
Speaker 2: a Chinese student or a student from another country is
24:53
Speaker 2: one fewer spot for an American. And we know the
24:56
Speaker 2: Chinese are really into the STEM topics science, technology, engineering, mathematics,
25:02
Speaker 2: and that's really where we should be teaching our yah,
25:05
Speaker 2: So that's not a great idea. Plus. Also, we know
25:08
Speaker 2: that a substantial percentage of Chinese students commit espionage thirteen
25:14
Speaker 2: percent on one estimate. We don't really know precisely, but
25:17
Speaker 2: it's a lot and they take a lot of information.
25:20
Speaker 2: We also know that they've we have these Chinese consular
25:25
Speaker 2: officials and Chinese Ministry of State Security agents monitoring, coercing
25:30
Speaker 2: and surveilling these Chinese students. And you know, if you
25:35
Speaker 2: let in more students, there's going to be more consular
25:37
Speaker 2: officials and more MSS agents running around. We're already overwhelmed, Joe,
25:42
Speaker 2: and we can't handle the situation as it is, So
25:45
Speaker 2: we should not be allowing more Chinese students into our country.
25:48
Speaker 2: And tell I'll tell you my dad was a Chinese
25:52
Speaker 2: student who came here, not under the Communist supervision. But
25:55
Speaker 2: you know, so this is not something where I automatically
25:57
Speaker 2: say no, they shouldn't be here. But right now we
26:01
Speaker 2: just can't handle it.
26:02
Speaker 1: Well, it's estimated eighty thousand came across the Vorder illegally
26:05
Speaker 1: during Biden and they're just here too, and we have
26:07
Speaker 1: no idea where they are unless they show up a
26:09
Speaker 1: military installation. That's happened several times Chinese nationals accidentally took
26:14
Speaker 1: a wrong turn and they ended up in a military
26:16
Speaker 1: installation or ended up at some sort of a military base.
26:19
Speaker 1: We don't know who they are, where they are, why
26:21
Speaker 1: they're here. We do know that there's this system of
26:24
Speaker 1: sending Chinese nationals here to have babies in the United States.
26:28
Speaker 1: It's big business, so that the baby is a United
26:30
Speaker 1: States citizen. So I mean they're doing their best to
26:32
Speaker 1: infiltrate as much as they can, aren't they?
26:35
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, And it's everything. All our institutions are infiltrated,
26:40
Speaker 2: politics are infiltrated. Just to give you an example, and
26:43
Speaker 2: this is not to say that Eric Swalwell did anything wrong,
26:46
Speaker 2: but it is to say how extensive China's operations are.
26:50
Speaker 2: The Ministry of State Security did not contact Eric Swawell
26:54
Speaker 2: for the first time when he was sitting on the
26:56
Speaker 2: House Intelligence Committee, where he would be of obvious value
27:00
Speaker 2: to Beijing. They first contacted him when he was on
27:03
Speaker 2: the City Council of Dublin City, California.
27:06
Speaker 1: Wow.
27:06
Speaker 2: And that means Swallow could not have been the only
27:10
Speaker 2: one they groomed. So there must be hundreds or thousands
27:13
Speaker 2: of Swallwells in this country. And as I said, this
27:16
Speaker 2: isn't to say Swaweal did anything wrong, but it is
27:18
Speaker 2: to say how big China's operations are against our country.
27:23
Speaker 1: Have we done enough to stop their surveillance through our
27:25
Speaker 1: apps like TikTok and so on? Allegedly it's owned by
27:27
Speaker 1: an American Now Beijing still has some sort of say
27:31
Speaker 1: have we done enough with that because that's sort of
27:33
Speaker 1: on the back burner now.
27:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely not China should be nowhere near an American app
27:39
Speaker 2: because they won't allow us near their apps, just out
27:43
Speaker 2: of a simple issue of reciprocity. But we know what
27:46
Speaker 2: they've bad acts through TikTok, stealing information, spying on minors,
27:51
Speaker 2: federal crimes by the way, and more even more important
27:55
Speaker 2: than that, using that algorithm to propagate their narratives, which
28:01
Speaker 2: is the reason why we've got a lot of college
28:03
Speaker 2: students who are in favor of brutality, murder, rape, torture.
28:09
Speaker 2: That's no accident. I mean, as pro hamas is because
28:14
Speaker 2: of TikTok and other Chinese apps have contributed a lot
28:18
Speaker 2: to that belief.
28:20
Speaker 1: Well, I'm on TikTok, and it's absolutely anti capitalist, it's
28:23
Speaker 1: absolutely anti American values, Western culture. Absolutely, they pushed the
28:27
Speaker 1: gaza story, so I'm with you on that. They really
28:29
Speaker 1: are doing that, and I was hoping that it would
28:31
Speaker 1: change once this so called ownership ownership change happened. I
28:34
Speaker 1: know you got to go, But before I walked out here, Gordon,
28:37
Speaker 1: I asked my wife, who's got a great affinity for China,
28:39
Speaker 1: and again we went and adopted our daughter there, What
28:41
Speaker 1: question do you have for Gordon Chang? And she said,
28:44
Speaker 1: can you ask him about the workers that come here
28:46
Speaker 1: to run Chinese restaurants. I thought that was an interesting question.
28:49
Speaker 1: Clearly they can't speak English. Clearly they're straight here from China.
28:52
Speaker 1: Is there some sort of an illegal immigration ring possibly
28:56
Speaker 1: going on through these Chinese buffets because they'll show up
28:59
Speaker 1: being big this six months, You've got fifteen different Chinese
29:02
Speaker 1: workers there, don't speak a lick of English, then they
29:04
Speaker 1: just disappear. Then they open a new one down the
29:06
Speaker 1: road somewhere. Is that Is that a system that they're
29:08
Speaker 1: pushing to get more Chinese nationals in.
29:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question to which I do do
29:15
Speaker 2: not have a precise answer. Look, we know that we
29:18
Speaker 2: are in the Biden years. Yeah, they when they opened
29:21
Speaker 2: up the border, a lot of Chinese nationals came across.
29:25
Speaker 2: Some of them are who they say they are. They
29:27
Speaker 2: really want to work in a free society. Some of them,
29:30
Speaker 2: we know, have links to the Chinese military, and it
29:34
Speaker 2: was very interesting. In the first years of that surge,
29:38
Speaker 2: those were primarily family groups, in other words, people who
29:41
Speaker 2: wanted to live here. Towards the end of the Biden surge,
29:45
Speaker 2: border patrol noticed a stark change in the composition of
29:49
Speaker 2: the Chinese migrants two thirds and in some border crossings
29:53
Speaker 2: eighty five percent. They noticed that primarily these were Chinese
29:57
Speaker 2: males of military age, traveling with out family members, pretending
30:01
Speaker 2: not to speak English. And in some of these these
30:04
Speaker 2: guys were coming across in packs of four to fifteen,
30:08
Speaker 2: all outfitted and identical kit. And you know, we know
30:12
Speaker 2: that a lot of these guys almost as soon as
30:14
Speaker 2: they got across, two weeks later, we're taking target practice
30:18
Speaker 2: in our country. Wow. So you know this is you know,
30:22
Speaker 2: and I don't know if those guys went to work
30:24
Speaker 2: in a restaurant, but we have to assume that a
30:27
Speaker 2: lot of these Chinese males, these agents, operatives and soldiers
30:31
Speaker 2: are in our country and they are ready to kill
30:33
Speaker 2: Americans in large numbers. So this is on us. We
30:37
Speaker 2: let this in. We didn't track those people as they
30:40
Speaker 2: came across, and right now we've got a lot of
30:43
Speaker 2: signs that they're engaged in some very dangerous activities. And
30:47
Speaker 2: that is a very long conversation, but I'll just give
30:49
Speaker 2: you one example, and that is, you know, we have
30:53
Speaker 2: with the surge across the border was a noticeable increase
30:57
Speaker 2: in attempted Chinese incursions into our military basis. So this
31:01
Speaker 2: is not a good story for us.
31:03
Speaker 1: It is our Gordonshang go to Gordonschang dot com, Gordon
31:06
Speaker 1: g Chang on X get the book called Plan Red
31:08
Speaker 1: and I always appreciate the time and the access. Thank
31:10
Speaker 1: you so much, Gordon. Let's do it again soon.
31:12
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. Joe and I appreciate this
31:14
Speaker 2: so thank you.
31:15
Speaker 1: All right, we'll talk soon. That's gonna do a friend
31:17
Speaker 1: shaking and not afraid with Joe Paggs this time. Another
31:19
Speaker 1: one to drop very soon. Make sure you subscribe