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Exposing the Dark Truth: A Mother's Battle Against the Troubled Teen Industry · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Throughout the past year and a half, i have been very adamant and involved about spreading the word of the trouble teen industry, and Ashley is here with us today, who you all know some may know as Nora And we also have released an episode with her and her mother talking about the parent side of adoption and TTI.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: We came across an amazing person that we just fell in love with and we had to have her on the show, and she is also a mother of a child that was a part of the TTI, and so she is here to share her and her son's experience with us.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I don't understand why it was me.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I'll ever be the same.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Is the same what I want?
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: anyway, you took what I thought I could never get back.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: I'll keep holding on to the anger.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: I'll roll down just to begin again.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I'll never be any longer.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: I'm back Taking the good kiss in the back.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: goodbye, ms TTI.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Mom is what we know you as.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here and trusting our platform and helping us educate people.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: I never thought I'd end up in this space or in this place of needing to educate people.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: I didn't know about this a year and a half ago.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: So let's kind of start there, because I was a little surprised when we were talking off the record and I said about a year and a half ago I didn't know about this, and then you said, oh, that was around the same time you found out about it, and that kind of took me back a little bit.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I thought the story went a little further than that.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: So start from there like wherever you're comfortable.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: Sure, well, my experience with the TTI started in the awareness of the TTI, not.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: My experience started in the fall of 2021.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: At that time we had, just as you know, the world had just come off of COVID.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: So a lot of kids who were in my son's age group at the time teenage middle school.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: That was a really hard time for them.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: He's a very, very bright boy, but online learning was just not going to work for him.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: So when he did start the ninth grade in the fall of 2021, he pretty quickly ended up on a not so great path.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: And at that time his father reached out to me and said that he had hired an educational consultant And this education consultant was insistent that our son go to wilderness therapy.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: I didn't know what wilderness therapy was, but I wasn't interested in sending him anywhere.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: So I said I don't want to talk to the educational consultant, and so from there this journey sort of ensued, if you will.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: He ended up needing some intervention by Christmas time.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: You know he just wasn't participating in school.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: At that point I decided that we would look at something local, because you certainly can get help treatment local.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: You don't have to send your child away.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: And even still, i didn't know what the TTI was.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: All I knew was there was this person in the background, an educational consultant, who was insisting that this was the answer.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: So we put him in a local program, took him out of school and he was doing really well.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: He really liked his therapist so much.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: They had a great connection And he was on a forward path.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: They don't get much education in these places, but it was just for a few months, so the focus really was on his mental health not his curriculum.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: So he was almost done with that program And they had this rule called the outside contact rule, and this was really the kind of the beginning of our nightmare.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: What that rule was was while they were in the program they weren't allowed to speak to other kids in the program outside of the building.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: That was kind of setting them up for disaster, because you've pulled them out of school.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: They weren't allowed to see their old friends.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: Now they're spending all day, every day, with these other kids who are going through the same problem.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: They're going through Their support system really for one another, but they're not allowed to communicate outside of the building.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: So no talking at night, no social media, none of that.
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: But he got caught doing that, they all got caught doing that And when that happened the program recommended that perhaps he needs to go to what they call a higher level of care.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: It's a very commonly used phrase in the TTI And basically it meant send him away, they told me.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: They recommended he go away for 30 days to a residential treatment program And again, there's programs near where we live but I honestly didn't even know what that meant.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: So at this time, this is when the educational consultant really kind of swooped in and said no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: He needs to go to wilderness therapy.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: That's the only thing he needs at stake, otherwise he's going to end up dead or he's going to end up in jail.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: And they really fed on the fear of my ex-husband.
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: Now, i never spoke to them because, again, i wasn't sending my son away and I knew that's all they were trying to do.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: But the problem for me is a legal problem in that when we got divorced in 2014, i ended up giving my ex-husband what's called tie-breaking.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: It was misrepresented to me as what it was, or I would never have agreed to it, because I was told that it basically just comes down to major life decisions as far as picking a doctor or, if you disagree, on a high school, but it really came down to who could pay for it, if you will.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: And since I couldn't pay for it like if I wanted my son to go to the top of private school in the area but I couldn't afford the tuition it wouldn't matter if I had tie-breaking.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense?
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: That's how it was pitched to me.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: That's not what it turns out to be, because the reason that our son is away now and has been in the TTI for 13 months is because of that clause.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: So my ex invoked his tie-breaking back in the winter spring of 2022 and said we're sending him to wilderness.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: And he wanted to do the whole transport thing, which is what they were recommending, and I said absolutely not.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: First of all, i don't even want to send him, but I know my hands are tied legally, so I'm not doing that to him.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: I will sit him down and I will explain to him what's happening the best I can and I will take him.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: You're not taking him.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: I will be there with him when he goes to this fucked up place part of my language.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I didn't even know how fucked up a place it was actually at the time.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: At the time, yeah, So and this is when, right now at this, what the TTI was because I told him we had a long talk He agreed to go.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: His reasons for agreeing to go are really sad And he wrote them in what's called his.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: It's called something when they have to write these letters.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: He agreed to go, He said, because his he knew his father had never been proud of him And he wanted to do something that would make him proud of him.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, I can't even say that without Yeah, So sad that you would like this is what you have to do to make your dad proud of you.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: Anyway, we took him, he went and from there like it's, he's now in his sixth placement.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: As of today, He's still not home.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I've heard so many stories of like Ashley's case.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: For example, she came from a well off family that could afford it, so it was them forking out money Same year.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and and so it was this whole money, because this is a multi-billion dollar industry, right?
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: So so, if I'm understanding the story correctly, you and your son was thinking this was a 30 day thing, and and then that was it.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, i'm also wondering because I've looked at brochures, i've heard other people's stories and these brochures and what is told to you is such a pretty picture with no truth.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: No truth.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: I had what was you know my admissions call, if you will, where before he even went, and they told me it's the average stays 45 to 60 days, and already that was too long in my mind, but I, you know.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: So at that point I told my son, because he said you need to promise me It's only gonna be 30 days.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: I can't do it.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: And I said I can't promise you that that's not what they've told me.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: They've told me now it could be two months, but And and and.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: They also told me you can come and take him out anytime you want, which was the probably the most flagrant lie that they told me, because one told you that wow.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, i have the man's name who told me that.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: I remember it clears day.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: And then in the paperwork that wasn't the case.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: The paperwork, once you signed it was Both parents had to agree to take the child out, which of course, in my case was never gonna happen.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Where does your ex-husband stand now, as he's still in like gun hole, like this is the best place.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so is it just that the fact that he's not doing his research, like where do you think the disconnect is, with him not Realizing what TTI is?
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: well, i mean, he's not a person who will ever admit that he's wrong.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: He thinks that the people talking about the TTI are just conspiracy theorists.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: He thinks we're all crazy.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Everybody one thing, if it was one or two of you, but they're there's, i know.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: He won't admit he's wrong and he has more money than he has sense in this case and frankly, this is about punishing me because he knows that my son and I have a great relationship and he hates it.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: So if he can create some distance between us, maybe he'll he can separate us.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: That's the part that pisses me off about a lot of not necessarily just TTI, but when it comes to parents who are Daborsing or divorced and the child gets used as a weapon, don't use the child as what caught her a bitch, call him a narcissist and asshole all day long.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Do not use the child as a weapon.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: No, it's disgusting.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, these types of conversations were just all over the board, right?
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: There's no way to go through a timeline, so so if any of the questions get a little bit too far ahead, we'll backtrack.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: I am so anxious and curious to hear about You getting to stay in this wilderness with your child.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I'm actually have.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Have we discussed that?
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm just going blank?
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I don't feel like we have.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: We have not.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: That's actually a newer practice that Started to do that was when I was in my program.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: We weren't even allowed letters.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: So so my question, i guess, would be I kind of have to a How did it happen?
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: period and be How did it get to happen with the father Being the one with the upper hand, because the vote level like how did?
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: this was last spring.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: I still as hard as I still have 50, 50 custody even right now.
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: That's why none of this makes sense right.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: Because tie-breaking is not supposed to mean that you get to send a child away for a long period of time over the objection of the other Parent when you share custody like that is not.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: That's why we have a pending appeal, because that needs to be defined so this never happens to anyone else again.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: So that was still last spring, we hadn't had our November hearing and one of the Program.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: What of the protocols and things that the program does is, as the child goes through phases, they earn a parent visit.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: So both of us separately went out for a parent visit and you get out there on Whatever day.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: You get out there, you go to the offices and get all your gear.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: They send you like a list of what you should pack and then you drive up into the desert where the boys are, which was about a two and a half hour drive, and then you're greeted by a staff who go through all your stuff.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: They take all your meds away from you, they take your phones and your watches away from you and then you're led We were led around a path to where the boys are.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like this in my entire life.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: I Literally am not exaggerating when I tell you it was like stepping on to the, onto the, into the Lord of the Flies.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: These boys Were filthy, filthy, matted coated.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: You could like see some of their whites of their eyes So brightly through the dirt on their face.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Their hair was matted.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: Many of them had already started to dreadlock because their hair was so filthy, their clothes were ripped, they were in the wild brush, like they were not at a campsite, like when you picture camping.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: You see a, a, maybe a cabin.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: But even if you don't see a cabin, you see tents and Organization and right a system for living outdoors.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: That's not what this was.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: This was a patch of dirt with wild bush and sage and twigs, and There were water bottles now Jean water balls just thrown everywhere and dirty sleeping bags and a couple books, ripped books.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: They all came running.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: It was like to see human, to see another human from from the outside world.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: It was like my heart, just I wanted to grab every one of them and hug them, but of course I didn't know them and wasn't gonna actually do that.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: But You could tell they were just craving human.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Touch It when, in minutes, they set us down in a circle and they, they want to introduce all the boys to us and us to them, and So we start off.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: They, they go around and they have to tell their name.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: They say their name, where they're from, they say why they're here, they say a fun fact about themselves that they share, and then they share Oh, and they share how long they've been there.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: So we all go around and, as these boys are going around saying why they're here, i'm like you know, i'm here because I played too many video games.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: I'm here because I got caught watching porn.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: I'm here because I caught to smoke too much.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: I smoked pot.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: One of them was there for crashing a car, but most of them were there, from what I could tell, from pretty normal teenage mischief, so we had to go around and do that and then we introduced ourselves.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: And then we got to go off and have some time alone with our son And I was observing the whole thing and there was so much Disregulation.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like it.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: These boys were just swearing at each other and yelling at each other and trying to call these things.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: They call groups, where one of them is Frustrated about something and they want to talk to the group about it.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: So they try to call this group and then everybody basically just makes fun of them for what they want to call the group for.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: So they feel totally invalidated and like why did I even bother?
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: and they're just laying on the ground.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: And all of a sudden I see that there are people who have chairs, but not chairs like real chairs.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: They're sort of like these very low to the ground, almost slings.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: So I asked our son I'm like why, who's?
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: why do some people have chairs and some people don't?
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: and he said, oh, only staff get chairs.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: I said so you never, this whole time you've been out here, you never sat in a chair, and he said only during therapy, for one hour a week.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: We sit in a chair under the, under a tree, otherwise we have to sit on the ground or lay on the ground, sleep on the ground, eat on the ground.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: So Then they ask us if we want to see his busting skills.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: Busting is what they call making a flame.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: So over the weeks they've been there they've each curated their own Busting set.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: They have their own bow, they have their own sticks and they carry it around it.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: It's very coveted Personal value to them because it's how they earn things.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: So if you can't make a flame, you can't necessarily have hot food that night.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: If you can't make so many flames, you don't get a headlamp.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: So at night you can't see.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: So you might sit on an anthill or on a Scorpions nest or just trip and fall on your way to using the bathroom.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: The bathroom is a bucket, it's a home Depot bucket and they used to sing this song We all shit in an orange LT, orange, lt, orange, lt.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: Because that's their bathroom and they have to call out their name every Three to five seconds while they're using the bathroom so that they're not Possibly so.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: They haven't possibly run away into the woods, so zero privacy.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Zero, even to the restroom.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and use calling it a restroom is a Right Running water There's no toilet paper.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: There's no, there's nothing.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: When I asked about bathing, on the phone Before I got there, they told me they get something called a billy bath and they said, yeah, they get to take a billy bath once a week where they get to submerge themselves in a big bucket of water.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: I was like, all right, well, that sounds a little rough for me, but okay.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Well, when I got there, guess what what they get is a little can, like a tin cooking cup that you'd find like in a Camping store, like a little tin cup, and they get to fill that with water And that's what they're supposed to use to wash their bodies once a week.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: So that's what they get, and they don't even.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: It's useless, because you don't have enough water to get a lather, you don't have a, you can't shampoo, i mean.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: So I'm taking all this in.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: We're kind of there, the day's going by too fast because I want to stop time, and then at some point it's dinner time, so they invite us to go have dinner with the group and basically what that means is we all sit around in a circle and They've sent Oh, they've sent us up into the field with food.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: My husband and I.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: We are not allowed to share our food With the boys.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: When I got there, my son told me he had had nothing to eat that day.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: He ran out of food the day before and he wasn't scheduled to get any the following day.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: He said they give us enough food to keep us alive, that's it, but they make them hike for miles and miles a week.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: So of course I shared my food.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: He's like don't let them see you, i don't care if they see me, let them tell me I.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Let them test you.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can see that in your eyes too.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I'd be like man you can't do that, oh, you can do whatever you want, nevermind.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so while so now it's dinner time.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: Now also, my husband and I are hungry because they've given us not so much food Although we've.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: We were told by our son that it's way more food than they get, but we weren't given a lot and of course We'd given quite a bit to him.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Because I can make it, i've got a few pounds to lose.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: I can handle not eating for a few days.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: So it's dinner time, so we've decided that we're gonna make Whatever we're gonna make out of our ingredients.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: They've given us a zucchini and some peppers and they give you like packets of chicken and tuna.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: They give you some dried rice and some dried beans, oh, and they give you like one little spice pack of Flavoring.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: So, whatever it was that day, i don't remember what the flavor was that they gave us.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: So I'm like, all right, well, how do what do we do?
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: How do we make?
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: So I'm handed this Filthy piece of plastic that's like laying on the ground, that's been stepped on, probably Defecated on who knows what on, and that's our cutting board.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: I'm given a filthy, dull knife that you could easily hurt yourself on, because Anybody who's a cook knows if your knives are dull, that's how you get hurt.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: Sharp knives are far less dangerous.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I do not know that down harder with a dull knife, which is how you lose control of a knife and how you can did you see the lot bulb go off on top of my head Like I did not know this, which obviously I'm not a cook, but I did not know that.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: It make all kinds of things here with with you, so thank you for being here today.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: You're very welcome.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: So we made dinner dinner.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was horrifying, but we were hungry.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: So we ate the dinner and then at some point it's time for bed.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: So one of the staff leads us off to a 150 yards.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: A little we clear a little we clear the rocks off the ground and They're like okay, good night.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: So we just lay out our sleeping bags and We have like a one inch, maybe one inch foam mat Goes under it.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: It was parents, or even even the children even the children.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: It was.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: It was nap season when we were there and the bug bites were so severe that when we got home My house I have photos my husband had to go on prednisone and an antibiotic because his legs were so infected from the bug bites And they didn't give us bug nets.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Just from the short time that 30 30 hours and he was a mess.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: These kids We saw two kids zipped into pouches like all the way around and I'm like why are those kids zipped in those pouches?
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: Apparently that was their punishment for something, and they aren't allowed.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: They have to stay zipped completely and anytime they want to go anywhere a staff has to Be right beside them.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: So they aren't allowed to get out of the pouch unless they're with the staff.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: What what scary movie am I watching right now?
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Like what made up horror movie am I watching right now?
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Because this cannot be real life.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: I know and and I Just couldn't.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, sleeping was hell, it was free, the sky was beautiful, like, okay, great, the sky is beautiful, the ground is hard as a rock, you're surrounded with rocks, there's bugs like buzzing in your ears, you can't see, there's no light.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: You have to get up and go to the bathroom.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: I I actually tripped on a stick and The stick like flew up and gouged my leg and I had like a three.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: I still have a scar from it.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: In fact, my son asked one of the staff He's like what's the worst injury you've ever seen out here?
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: and the staff said your mom's.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking, yeah, right, but wow.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: So, with you all being parents, they're visiting, did your son, or did you notice if there was any difference or special treatment?
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like it was still rough as hell.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: But what was that?
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: what was it a little bit lightened because parents were there and was during this visitation time, or they.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: It was told to me that they gave, you know, extra food, better Equipment to us.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: I mean I could see that the boys stuff is just filthy and thread-norn.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: I mean I don't think that they did anything differently while we were there.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: They basically do nothing.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: They sit around all day and do nothing.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: They don't get an education, you, they just are like wild animals out there and they wait for their therapist to show up once a week, who we met with the following morning before we had to leave.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: We have a therapy session, and then we observed what's called a Milan group, and a Milan group at this particular wilderness program is when apparently it comes from some kind of therapy that originated in Milan, italy, and what they do is they have the kids, the therapist talk about the kids and discuss the kids in front of the kids, and that's the premise behind this Milan group is to have transparency, that the therapists are actually talking about them and their progress or their deficits or this or the other thing right in front of them.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: So it can be a little degrading because you're talking about each child in front of all the other children.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Well, and let me ask you, with this being such a money-based thing, i feel like and granted, this can be my ignorance right, but I feel like they're going to focus more on the negative, because this justifies well, they need 30 more days and we need $10,000 more.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: My ex-husband paid $50,000 for my son to be there for 11 weeks.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: What are you paying for?
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: No bedding, no food, nothing.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: What are you paying for One hour a week of therapy?
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Oh and, by the way, the therapist was also one of the owners of this program.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: So what were the credentials?
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: What is incentive to say that he doesn't need therapy Right Now?
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: ironically, i will say and I'm getting ahead of myself he did ultimately end up saying that my son could come home and he did not need aftercare, but this was after a lot of battle.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: The educational consultant actually told me that's because they were afraid of me, which I find is true, but I hope it is true.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Look, look.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: when you logged in I was like, oh there's Mama Bear, i see you And I'm not having it.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: So the next morning I was 100% a compliment.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: I took it as one.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: So, the next morning we had therapy.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: I got in a huge fight with the therapist, threatened to take our son with me.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: He's following me around, mom, mom, mom, please don't leave me here, please don't leave me here.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: And knowing we've got this pending court case, I was like, if I take you out of here today, I will get arrested and we won't accomplish anything.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: I'm willing to get arrested, but you'll just end up back here anyway.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Right, we've got to pick our battle.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: So let's just hang in.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: Let's just hang tight.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: We know that you aren't being recommended for aftercare at this point.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Well, we don't know.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: But I have a sense, because I've refused all the testing and my son refused to do the testing, so now they have no basis to send them somewhere else.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: There's that's this big thing out.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: There is that they want to do this neuropsych test and my son refused to do it.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: So they don't really have a legal leg to stand on if they don't have results of this test, to say oh well, this is the criteria that your son meets for this program.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Now there's a retaliation with because you know how, like you hear when and let me preface this was saying when some of my TTI videos came out I've had people that are amazing people in society right now that are rehabilitated, but that did some time in prison and they're amazing people.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: But they have reached out to me and they were like damn it, this is worse than the prison I was in and I was locked up with murderers, you know, oh.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: I didn't see that Yeah.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: so my question is you know how there is?
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: there's always this thing that if you get pulled over, maybe you've had one glass of wine, you know it's not enough, but if they smell it, they're immediately gonna say and so it's like do I take the test, do I not take the test?
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: But if I don't take the test, what happens to me then?
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: If I do take the test, what happens to me then?
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: And the reason why I'm lying is this, like prison gel shit is because that's what this is, worse than So.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: sorry for the long explanation of this question, but the reason I asked that is are there repercussions that happen with the denial of these tests?
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: I can't answer that.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: I pressed hard on the therapist and I said does he need to take this test to be successful in your program?
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: And he said no, i don't need the test results to treat him.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: He said I'd be fascinated to see how he lines up on the test, see how his mind works, but I do not need him to take the test.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Interesting okay.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: So as far as I was concerned, there was no reason for him to take the test.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: He's far away from home.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: I don't know who the hell this tester is or what their motivation for swaying results, And I just wanted him home.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: And I said to my ex-husband we could test him when he gets home.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: There are plenty of qualified people who can do these tests while he's safe in our house.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: One of the questions I have for you, because I know that we're getting close to our hour, but this is one of those conversations, i don't know how much to say.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Well, good, because I can be here as long as you can be here, so no rush on my end.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Yep, absolutely.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: One of the questions that I have is I even feel disgusting having to ask a mother this.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: But when you pulled up to spend the weekend or the 30 hours with your son out in this wilderness, you were talking about how dirty they were And did you recognize your son And I'm sure, as a mother, you spotted him out immediately.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: But was it that moment of that can't be my baby, like what?
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: how did that?
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: how was that?
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: describe that moment to I can even get the words out describe that moment to you when you've seen your baby, no, it's a great question.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, i came around I can remember it so clearly because I came around the corner, like behind this tree, and they were just all huddled together.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: But he knew I was coming around, so he had sort of like pulled himself toward the front.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: But no, when I saw him, i mean he was, his clothes were ripped and his, there was something missing in him, his, he was suffering.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: You know, i could see it all over him And, yeah, of course I recognized him, but I didn't even really spend a lot of time looking at him, because I spent more time hugging him for the first 20 minutes.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: And then, of course, like I looked at his face and but no, i mean, they all look broken.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: They all look so sad It's the only way I can describe it.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: Like they look, they have desperation in their eyes And leaving him there was like my God, it was a mess.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: I couldn't I can't even tell you what a mess I was leaving him there.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: I can't.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Imagine.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: And that's the thing.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: like I have 50, 50 custody, I shouldn't have to leave him there.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: That's the whole crux of why this is so infuriating in my situation.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: You know, most times kids go to these places because parents agree or it's a single parent.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: But this, I think my situation is very rare.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because this whole like 50, 50, but a what'd you call it?
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: a deal breaker, a tie breaker?
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: And then, and I know, oh my gosh, usually I'm not stuck on words, but and I pay a lot of money for Botox not to cry and damn it, i need a refund.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Oh my God, I'm still behind on my Botox.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: I just made an appointment today for that.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: How do you do?
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Oh good.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: And if you cry, you ruin your spray tan too.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's all.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Why do you think I wore a dark shirt Like it's?
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: all.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm so emotional.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: I knew this was gonna happen.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, Okay, so please don't be, because we it.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: honestly, when people come onto my platform and they share these emotions with me, then that means they feel safe and they feel good, And that means the world to me And they're not bottled up anymore.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the hour or two hours or three hours, how long you let me stay with you means, I mean, we're gonna be on a crazy roller coaster together.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Right, We've laughed, we've cried, we've cost, and I love that.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: So so This is a very isolating journey.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: These people don't even know what the hell I'm talking about When I say my son is in wilderness.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: They're like, oh, he's an outward bound.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: No, and I mean he's not in wilderness now, but it's isolating.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: You can't talk about it as much as you're living it, and I'm living it constantly, like so to be able to talk to people safely, freely, freely, who also understand what the heck I'm even saying, because it sounds so outrageous.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: It doesn't even sound possible that that's seen I just described in the in the desert could really be real.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: And the sick part is there's tens of thousands of these exact same situations in various places right now 120,000 to 200,000 kids at any given time.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: I mean it's mind boggling.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: And a point that I wanted to make, or a point that I actually did make to when I had Ashley and her mother on, so many parents went to beat themselves up for it.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: And but you're when you have people that you know, we're told you believe teachers, you believe doctors, you believe police, you believe lawyers, we're trained that you believe these people, and then you have this pretty brochure And then in some cases maybe not this one, i'm not sure but in and a lot of these facilities, they, they want to use the, the God factor too, right, so so And don't forget the educational consultant.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they are the gateway to this health in many cases, and we're trained to trust these people right, and you see this pretty brochure and then you put God and Christianity behind it Like what is there not to trust, and but?
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: but one of the points that I I like to definitely make, especially with these conversations, is the Hilton's Paris Hilton's family, who have unlimited money and resources, were also bamboozled, you know, and so when the parents are beating themselves up, you know I try to remind them that had my parents went about the TTI, i probably would have been there too.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: The industry is designed to deceive From the beginning.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: That is what it is designed to do And of course, parents can fall for that.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: We're human beings I mean, look at how many and also you're taking a human being who's scared, doesn't necessarily know what to do with their child, parenting doesn't come with a handbook and your kids in trouble, your kids slipping in school, doing drugs, which you know is not necessarily okay in any way, but it's also.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: It's kind of what happens.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: But then the people prey on you and this industry has become so.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: It's like even the schools.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Now, like the school counselors will say oh, you should talk to an educational consultant.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: The educational consultant is the reason that many of these kids are in these places, because they know just what to say.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: My, the woman that my ex-husband hired, used the words about this particular wilderness program.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: You are lucky to get him in there.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: That is the Harvard of wilderness programs.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: What the fuck does that mean?
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure Harvard wouldn't want their name attached to that.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Right, right, let's call them and tell them the story and see if, but when?
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: you're talking to someone like my ex, who's, you know, a wealthy businessman and he has all these hopes and dreams for a son and he's a buttoned up Republican.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: Oh, the Harvard of wilderness school, that sounds great, but you're right, so.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: So this shows that they're trained to target their audience right.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: When they're talking to this white, straight Republican man with some money in the bank, let's use the word Harvard, let's.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: You know, this is what we do, because as soon as they hear that they're like, oh, my elite son needs to be in these elite places and my, you know, not everybody has this opportunity Like my, like, yeah, they're trained, and so I do.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Let me, i feel like I have to say I feel not that I have.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm saying this before everything because I want to show you so, so, so much respect.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: I do not, i do not want to brush over or pass over anything that you want to say.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: There's no schedule Like.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: So, if this is jumping too far ahead, we can cover it, but You will never be denied to say what you need to say.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, but I would love to take a couple of minutes and maybe now is the best time to do it, since we're on the subject.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: But I would love to take a few minutes to talk to the parents.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: We have spent most well, other than one, right, ashley, and all the episodes I've done with TTI have been from the TTI victims slash survivors.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: You're the second parent I think you know since, because your mom was on right.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: So that's my.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: My mom was not a TTI mom.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: This is my birth mom.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I did not find her until I was an adult And she, just like you, is appalled that this even exists.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: There's not even a word.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: like appalling is right.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: There isn't a word.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: There is no words for it.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so glad you have that and that you found her.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: You have support.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: That's amazing, Yeah yeah, but you're right, ashley, i'm glad you made that point because You're your mom in the TTI mom because of the circumstances and so so, so they're so similar but they're also so different.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: So you're you're one of a kind on the show this far, and so what I find happens is But where we do have so many of the victims slash survivors on telling their personal story, you don't have the parents saying, and so So I want to take this opportunity to really hit that part hard.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: What do we say to these parents?
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: What do we do to get them to educate themselves and to learn before they make the decisions?
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: So can you talk to us about that?
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Like, what would you do if your girlfriend called you and said I'm thinking about this, what would you do?
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: I've had this happen.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: Not from friends, because my friends know better than to say that to me, but I do have friends that have sent their kids and but I've, through my, my starting my tech talk and getting out there on social media, i have had parents reach out to me who are considering it and just wanted to get my take on it, you know, offline, and so what I would say is Obviously I'm not a doctor, so I'm going to start there.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: If these kids, if your child is struggling, you need to get to the root of the struggle.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: Okay, if it's an educational struggle, get some testing done and find out if they need supports, if they need an IEP, if they need a tutor, if they I mean, there are reasons why kids struggle academically that are specific to academic struggle.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: There are also reasons that they struggle academically that are attached to emotional struggle.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: So, does your child have all the things in place at home to help them?
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: Are you giving them boundaries?
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: You know, are you letting them just do whatever they want And you know they have to make that same?
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: go out, get in trouble, and then you're like hammering, putting the hammer down on them because they fucked up, because that's not parenting your child.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: So I am going to sound a little bit critical of parents that take that route, because the only that's not fair to the child.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: Teenagers are not wired to.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: They're not supposed to have to do that.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: So if they aren't doing well in school and they are showing signs of, maybe, depression or anxiety, or they're not having a good time easy time making friends, or they're struggling with their sport, or they're just even struggling in their family dynamic, my strong recommendation is to get to the bottom of those things each at a time, because they aren't all the same thing, and that's my problem with the TTI.
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: All these kids are there being treated the exact same way, and none of them come there with the exact same profile.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: So that doesn't.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: Even that sets them up to fail.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: There's no meaningful therapy in that.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: So I would suggest exhausting all of that first.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: Whatever testing you need to get done, to meet with the teachers, talk to the pediatrician, talk to a therapist, a psychiatrist do they need medication?
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: I can't answer any of that.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: But what I can answer is whatever box they check of what is wrong with them isn't gonna fucking be fixed in wilderness.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: Okay, it's not.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: It's gonna make it worse.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: And not only is it gonna make it worse.
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: It's also going to make them so dysregulated They aren't gonna know how to trust there And even gonna know how to trust themselves, nevermind anybody else, because the whole program is designed to keep them off kilter all the time.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: It sticks in carrots, sticks in carrots.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: You earn this, oh, you lose this.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: You did that, oh great, now you did that.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: It's not healthy and there is zero scientific evidence to show that this helps.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: There's nothing to prove the efficacy of these places anywhere, except for studies they do internally.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: There's no peer review information.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: There is nothing.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: So sorry, i got on a tangent.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: No, don't be sorry, because that's so interesting that I I mean, i didn't even think about that.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: But so am I understanding correctly that the stats that we have is all what they've come up with, anything positive for their, for the program, and has just been what has come, been developed within the actualization, but anything outside there's zero?
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, wow, yeah.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: There has been one outside study done on wilderness programs.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: one, yau-kum, said that 80-something percent was successful.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Really, the basis of their study was to interview students who went to wilderness programs two years after they left their wilderness program.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Do you know where 99% of those children are two years after they leave wilderness?
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, dad, or in jail.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: They're getting ready to leave their long-term placements.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: They've been brainwashed for the last two years and they are so desperate to keep from staying there and going back they will say anything And that's what that study is based on, and they're doing it because the children are minors, with their parents present.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: That is the only study that has been done on wilderness programs and their success, and that study showed that wilderness programs were incredibly effective.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Who did that study?
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I will have to look that up for you.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: I'll find it and get it for you.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I cannot remember the name.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fine, i was just curious.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: But that makes sense.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: That makes sense.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: Of course, there'd be no real data, wow.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: So that's what I would tell parents Just anything, anything.
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: But this, really, i mean, it's not easy.
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: I get it, i get your kid is struggling and you're at wit's end.
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: I understand, but this is not going to help.
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: It is not going to help.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: You might think it helps short term because they come home and they're sober or they're telling the line and they're being polite or whatever it is.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: You're looking for them.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: They're not video gaming and they're not on social media.
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: You might think short term, oh, this was.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Look at little Johnny and little Susie are doing so great.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: You can tell how old I am by using those names.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: It doesn't.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: It's too broken.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly, i enjoy.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: What's the point of doing anything?
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: They are joyless, and that's exactly what happened when my son came back from wilderness.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're not playing video games, maybe they're not doing these things, but they're not doing anything I was going to say.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Are they even living?
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Is it just?
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: your son is now just an empty shell.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was.
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: He was traumatized.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: He tried to go back to school.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: Well, i mean, he did go back to school, but all of his friends had moved on.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: Now he's this weird kid who had gotten sent away for six months, so nobody wants anything to do with him.
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: At least that was his perception.
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: Sure, that doesn't matter.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: If that's your perception, that's your reality when you're a child.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: And kids don't get in these programs because they have the perfect family and they're well adjusted.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Kids who get into these programs are children who are already traumatized, and trauma is not going to fix trauma.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: No, that's a very valid point.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: And so, yeah, i mean because and he was sent back to the same school, which was a whole other argument everybody told my ex-husband don't do that.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: everybody, again, he did it on purpose because he knew he'd fail and he knew he'd have an excuse to send him away again.
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, his agenda is a whole other situation here.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: That's my cross to bear.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: Some of the stories that I've heard and please correct me if I'm wrong.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I don't have children and I was not part of TTI, right?
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: But so with what little education I have, with just the few people that are now part of my life, sometimes it seems to me in some situations not every, but it's almost more of a.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: If we send our kid here for 30 days, we've got a full-time babysitter.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: We can go enjoy the summer, not realizing what was going to completely transpire with that.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Am I wrong for having that thought of?
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: You are spot on.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: So in December he was sent to a place in Connecticut which was one of the worst places he's been.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: He was abused verbally and emotionally by his therapist.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: He was crying out for help.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: His father sent him a letter on stationery from like a fancy hotel in Palm Beach because he was on vacation.
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: My son said to me he's like nothing, says I miss you, son, like a notepad from Palm Beach, like he was so bothered.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: I mean he has a good sense of humor.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: But you know that kind of deep, the deceptive practices.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: Many of the handbooks even tell these parents don't believe your children when they call you and tell you about the abuse that's happening here or this, that or the other thing.
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: They're just trying to manipulate you to get out of here.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: That's a common practice.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: That happened to us in the place in Connecticut.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: The first week my son was there.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: His therapist called him a little weirdo to me and then told me he was manipulative and he's resistant to treatment.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: Meanwhile he's none of those things.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: He actually likes therapy, oddly enough.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: But he didn't like her and he didn't trust her.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Now that we have talked about people educating themselves, if they're considering these facilities, what about the ones that have already sent their child there and then learn that maybe this is not the best place?
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Is there things set up that can, where they can go, like get their kids out?
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: I believe so.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: As I understand it, every state is different.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: I know, particularly in Utah, you do sign over some level of custodial ship, but I think that stuff has changed from years ago when you really couldn't take your child out.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: I know now that most of the programs will allow you to, but it has to be with both parents' consent.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Which is another obstacle, or the obstacle, i guess, that you run into.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: In my case, I can't do that because his father won't agree to that.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: This is so interesting to me because a lot of the episodes that I've covered have been with the older generations, where 100% of custody were signed over to these places.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: You were no longer these people's parents.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: I guess in my mind I was thinking that was still the case, but then, off the record, you I and Ashley were talking, and a lot of places.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: There is no custodial sonnage anymore, which I guess still allows parents to be in control somewhat once they do learn.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: I believe so.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: I think that's the obstacle, though, is getting parents educated, especially after they've sent their child.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's even more difficult because now they've bought in, they've spent the money, they've made the decisions.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: But I believe yes, if both parents agree, you can pull your child.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: One.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Another obstacle that I feel would be just so hard and again we talked about this off the record but the branding of this was just so brilliantly done, even in the 100 years ago when this started right To title this a troubled team.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: In a lot of cases maybe not your son's case, but in a lot of cases if these children do get a phone and do have a way to let their family know that this isn't good, this isn't safe my mental health, my physical health, everything is bad then a person that we're trained to trust and believe could easily just snatch the phone away from them and say well, your kid is here because of trouble.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Like you're not believing them, are you?
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: I mean the programs are designed.
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: Numerous handbooks have been revealed over the years from many of these places where they lay out language that's very specific don't believe your child.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: They're going to tell you this is the worst place.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: The kids are worse than them.
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: We're starving, the conditions are terrible, like the mantra is don't believe your child.
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, even when I first heard from my son and his first wilderness placement, in the letter that he wrote he said you have to get me out of here.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: This isn't what any of us thought it was going to be.
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: And when I brought that to the attention of the therapist, who also is the owner of the place, i got the whole thing.
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: Well, this is the tactic, this is what all the kids do.
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: This is what they try to tell you.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: You just have to let them adjust and don't give in.
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: So to me, as a mom, that is just such a huge red flag, like any organization or industry or anything that would tell you don't believe your child is problematic, not to be trusted.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And we also want to believe that there's power in numbers, right, And in these cases, these children aren't talking to everybody's parents.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: It's this troubled child, quote unquote for the people.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Like you know, this isn't a visual, it's an audio.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: So it's troubled, quote unquote.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: That's not only child you're talking to.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: So when you're told that your kid is the only one saying this, like because your kid didn't get his way, you haven't talked to the other 340 that's out there in the field working and sweating.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: But when you, but if parents get together and actually talk about it, they're all being told the same story about their kids.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: There's the same kind of beating, the same kind of sexual assault, the same kind of abuse, the same kind of hunger, the same kind of shit.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and they really don't encourage parents to talk to each other either.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: Never not believe my child, no matter what.
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: And that's exactly to your point.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: Like they only let you talk to your child and they tell you they're the only one saying that, when they're not the only one saying that.
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: I mean every single kid that I spoke to when I had my parent visit all said the same thing Right.
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: I mean they literally had the words written on their hats F you and the name of the place, like they were not there because they were happy there.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: They were not there because they wanted to be there or that they felt they were being getting any benefit from being there.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: Well, i was going to say to kind of piggyback off that you know, not everybody's going to want to be where especially kids are not going to want to be where they should be to get that beneficial thing.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: You know like they want to be with their friends in their home or they're being whatever they want to be.
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: They feed into that, like of course they don't want to be here, so they're going to tell you all this stuff.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: But that's kind of the whole point.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: They're prisoners there.
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: They've been there literally.
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: They're held against their will.
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: There are ways to get your child help, whatever that help is psychiatric, psychological, educational, behavioral, whatever that help is.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: There are ways to get your child that help without shipping them across the country, kidnapping them in a lot of cases by these third party transporters and leaving them out to fend for themselves.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Essentially, that's what they're doing The trauma alone with the transporters.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: I know It's disgusting.
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: I don't understand what parents think.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, imagine you're a kid, you're sleeping in your bed, you're in your home and you get ripped out of your bed but and you watch your parents watch this happen to you.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: In some cases, you watch your parents.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: Oh they don't The companies on their websites even specifically say we will have you move to another room, so your child can't even see you, okay, We have had people on that have said that their parents were in there, so I guess they have the choice.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, probably I don't know, I would never do that.
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: It was suggested to me And, as I said in the last time we spoke, no way.
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: But yeah, imagine like this is how they start their journey to wellness.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, for the first three days they're not even allowed to talk to another human being.
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: They sit under a tree crying and writing this letter of accountability.
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: It's called where they have to write this letter about all the things they did wrong that warrants them being here.
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: It's I'm, it is I don't know how.
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: It's legal.
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, that's really money.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Money.
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: It is money.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: I know, but isn't that sick?
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Isn't that sick, and you know I know that my trauma is completely different than this, but I know how it feels to have my home violated.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: I know how it feels to have someone come in uninvited and put their hands in places that it shouldn't be, whether it's around my arm to escort me out or down my pants.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: I know how that feels and it doesn't go away until the day I die.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: The person that did this to me, his fingerprints are on me And that's how every single child then and now will feel.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: until the day they die.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Those fingerprints will never leave him.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: No, and that's a really great analogy.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, they will never feel valued by their parents, who are supposed to be the keeper of their, their, their health, their, their, their supposed to be the one safe place their parents are And it's I don't know.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: I would love to share just and my listeners already know this story And so I will keep it really quick.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: But what I get drawn to is, after my attack, i had to live with my family for a while and so I could recover, and then finally one day I was like, okay, i need to live by myself again, i need to be a man again, i need to be grown again.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: I was not ready for it, but I did it.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: And so because I was paying my rent and everything, because I lived in an apartment, because I was in a lease, paying my rent, i still cut off the bills I didn't need at the time that I was living with my family during recovery.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: So just cable on the internet, right?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: So then when I went home, when I went back to my apartment, it was time to turn on the cable and internet again, and so it was Comcast, then I think it's Xfinity now, but either way called Xfinity, and they were sitting and got over to turn everything on My doorbell.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: They tell me what time someone's going to be there, like I know what's happening, right, my doorbell rings, i look out my doorbell or my ringhole, and I see a man with a beard.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: That is the only thing I remember from my attacker is the beard.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: I started screaming through the door to get the fuck away from me.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: You will not murder me, you were not going to do this.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: You can't come inside my house.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: I flipped out so bad And this poor man was like I and I.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: This will sound maybe kind of silly The way that I say it, but I mean it 100%.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: He probably thinks about me eight years later every time he rings the doorbell.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sure.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: And luckily I was able to call my mom and I was like this man, and my mom was able to talk me off the ledge.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: I was able to let her know Finally she put it all together that maybe that was the Comcast guy.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: And luckily my mom started a person She called Comcast.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: It was like I need to know the man that was going to my son's house.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: I've got to find him.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: I had to send him an edible arrangement.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: I've got to explain, you know.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: And luckily my mom was able to track him down and say look my son.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Someone tried to murder my son.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: All he remembers is a beard.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: When he looked up the, the peephole, all he saw was that it triggered him.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: This was his first encounter with a stranger.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, please do not carry this with you.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: You did nothing, right?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: You know, like repr, you know just apologize over and over, but the point of me saying that is I don't care.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: When I'm 84 years old, i will remember that beard and and and and same for the people that the, the TTI kids that went through this and it will never leave.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: And and this is also a prime example of that snowball effect, right, this man.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: What if he had his own PTSD and I triggered him?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: What, what, what if he was battling alcoholism and that not, he was like I'm going to have a fucking drink.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: You know, like it's just the endless snowball cycle of shit And and, and so I I did not mean to hijack your story, but but this part of the, the TTI situation, just really it's one thing that I can relate to and it kill, it kills me.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing that.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: I mean it's that was vulnerable of you and you're right.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: None of us will ever know what the triggers are of these kids and how they'll go through adulthood with you know a million different things to trigger them because they all had, while they all had a similar experience.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: everything manifests differently for every individual And what these programs do is not healthy.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: It is not.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: They cannot continue to market themselves as treatment.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: They are not treatment.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: There is zero evidence, zero.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: And you made a good point when we were talking earlier of when, when you went to visit your son and you were around this bonfire, like atmosphere, whatever it is out in the wilderness right, and and all the kids had to confess to all the things that they were told were bad, and some of them may have been bad I don't know if this was the appropriate punishment for it but one of the things that really resonated with me is when these facilities focus on the same kind of I don't want to say rehabilitation, because this is not rehabilitating, but the same kind of treatment, the same kind of punishment and atmosphere, regardless of what the quote, unquote troubled act of the teen was.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: Can we, can we talk about that for a second?
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, That's actually something that really stood out for me when I went out there.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: Um, you know, let me preface this by saying there were plenty of kids that are in these programs who legitimately do need some kind of help.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: They do.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: I mean they could.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not a doctor, that's not about, like me, diagnosing what's wrong with them, but there are kids in these places who need legitimate therapy and treatment, individualized treatment that will help them.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: But as we went and we sat in this circle, there was no bonfire, though As we sat in the circle Fair enough, Fair enough.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: I guess I did kind of paint like a, you know a kind of picture.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, i really hate that.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there were no s'mores, fair enough.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: But as we went around this circle and we listened to these kids tell us why they're there, their reasons varied significantly Because, um, playing too many video games, failure to perform, was something that really stood out, because what does that even mean?
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: There was one boy who was a person of color who had was adopted and his white Mormon adoptive parents couldn't connect with him culturally so they sent him away to wilderness And he'd been there twice.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: Some of them admitted they were there because they had depression or anxiety.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: Certainly, some of them did have substance abuse issues, no question.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: Some of them were there because they were autistic or on the spectrum in some way.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: Some were gay and their parents didn't like that.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: They were gay.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: Some of them did attempt unalives and that had them there.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: So here's this whole range of you have a child who has committed a crime or has attempted to unalive themselves or is heavy drug user, and then you have a child who's not getting straight A's or is playing too many video games, but they're all lumped together.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: They all just live together in this completely unregulated circle of madness And they all get treated the same.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: The punishments are the same, the consequences are the same.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: There's literally nothing to better each person based on their individual struggles and their individual needs, and that often it leads to ineffective and harmful outcomes.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: Honestly, i mean yeah it's, and it's just like whatever gains they supposedly make as they go through these phases, the gains aren't sustainable, because they then get just okay and they have to go home and figure out they have no support in place and they've now lost their ability to regulate themselves.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: They have no way to regulate themselves after this.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: To bring today's episode to an end.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: I always like to make it same as we talk about good, positive things, because in the middle we're talking about some shit.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: I know it's hard to find those good, positive things, but I know that you have them And I would love to end on something of enlightenment and love and joy to keep our hope and faith and spark alive.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: What can you tell us?
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: What can you say to us?
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that the time we're living in is a positive.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: keep our hope alive.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, we live in a world where social media has allowed the voices to be heard.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: We're living in a time where kids who went through this, who are now adults, can talk about it and have they're not going to stop.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: And we have somebody as powerful as Paris Hilton who really whether you like her, don't like her, follow her or not isn't the point, It's that she's using her platform to raise awareness.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: So I think that's the light.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: I think some bills are being passed.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: I think this is getting in front of legislation.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: It's not going to happen overnight.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: and it's not going to happen overnight because it's a multi-billion dollar business and nobody wants to stop getting their paycheck, But it's going to happen.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: The insurance companies aren't going to keep letting these people run these businesses, And the more the survivors talk, the more the people tell the stories of what really goes on inside these places.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: why would parents send their kids there?
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: Why would they So?
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: to me, it just has to be this wave effect that eventually that wave is going to come on shore and this is just all going to go away and we're going to have a beautiful coast of seaglass and no more shit.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: I cannot thank you enough.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: You have a friend of me and a believer of me and a supporter in me, and I can't wait for it.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: I think they're both amazing and I'm so honored, so honored, to be on this path with people like you.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: Bye.