Latest / Rusty's Garage / Max Papis Part 1 - His friend Senna and fencing Ingall

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Max Papis Part 1 - His friend Senna and fencing Ingall · Rusty's Garage

0:02
A listener production.
0:14
I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust and this is Rusty's Garage.
0:27
I try not to play favourites when it comes to feature guests.
0:30
Every ep is special to me for one reason or another, but sometimes one will really grab you.
0:36
Maybe it's the backstories they share, the passionate way they tell those yarns, or the rapport that you have in the conversation.
0:43
This one is all of those things, and I'll look back on it very fondly for some time.
0:48
I'm at the listener studios for the conversation.
0:51
My guest is on the line from Mooresville, North Carolina, a hub for motorsport, as many of you know.
0:57
Max Pappas is very proud of his Italian heritage, but he's made North America his home.
1:04
He raced against some guns in karting and even came to Australia to compete.
1:09
Max was good friends with the legendary Ayrton Senna and he treasures those memories, as you'll hear.
1:15
I'm grateful that he shares a few of them with our listeners.
1:17
Max would rise through the junior formula at a time where it was filled with future stars.
1:24
Through sheer determination, he made it to Formula One, but it was brief.
1:29
And it was almost the end of his motorsport journey before a chance opportunity to race sports cars at Daytona.
1:36
You sense he thought it might be a one off.
1:39
There was nothing to lose.
1:40
So he went hard.
1:42
And it was an unforgettable race and drive that he put in.
1:46
It would be the beginning of a new chapter that revitalised him.
1:50
He opened doors then to Champ Car, NASCAR, and later channelled his infectious energy, his precision and passion into a motorsport business which has gone global.
2:03
So he's at the headquarters of his Max Pappas Innovations or MPI, where they continue to improve the design and safety of steering wheels for all kinds of motorsport.
2:15
And they do more than that, too.
2:16
Quick thanks to Owen Kelly, whose EPP you can find in the library, the former supercar and NASCAR driver, was in the States in recent months where his son Hudson was racing karts.
2:26
They were
2:27
all hanging out together at the track.
2:29
So Owen messaged me with the idea of getting Max on for a chat.
2:34
Let me tell you, it didn't take much arm twisting.
2:37
Hope you enjoy the convo.
2:39
Max, we're overdue this chat.
2:41
It's fantastic to get you on.
2:42
Welcome.
2:43
Thank you so much, Greg.
2:44
It's a pleasure to be here.
2:46
And thank you.
2:47
So many memories and I appreciate a lot of you having me.
2:49
Well, we're going to talk about lots of memories and a connection to Australia.
2:52
Can I start with early life for you?
2:54
I have literally in the last few months returned from a family holiday in Como.
2:59
We went to Chinobio there and I know that you grew up sort of in that area somewhere there, not all that far from Monza, beautiful part of the world.
3:07
Tell me about early life for Max Pappas and how the connection to motorsport came about for you.
3:13
First of all, I'm super excited you went.
3:16
I was actually born about 10 minutes from Chernobyl.
3:19
Oh, wow.
3:20
In a small village right on the Swiss border.
3:23
Okay.
3:24
And the passion from the sport came in a very funky way.
3:30
You know, my dad loved racing, but never involved in racing.
3:34
And we were born on the Swiss border.
3:37
And most of the people there, they had fast cars because what they were doing back in the day, they were smuggling cigarettes and little things.
3:47
Because in Switzerland, there was less taxes.
3:49
Yeah.
3:50
And I remember my dad always having this Golf GTI and pretty fast cars, having this passion.
3:57
So most of his friends were like a little, you know...
4:01
know crazy i guess you know fast cars to run away from the police when they were possibly smuggling something back to switzerland back to italy and how it ended up it was that the engine tuner for all this uh supercars yeah uh one of his son used to race uh go-karts one day he took me to the to the local karting track
4:26
And that's where the passion started.
4:28
And it was very, very special for me.
4:31
And it's a hub for karting in that sort of region, I guess, Max, isn't it?
4:35
From memory, second in your very first race, you start crossing paths as a youngster with people like David Coulthard, Alan McNish, and so on.
4:45
Yeah, but let me tell you something that I think is significant and I don't think many people know.
4:51
After the first experience with karting with this tuner that lived near my house, we moved, you know, about 20 miles from Como.
5:02
And in the next village from where we moved was this amazingly famous karting engine tuner that actually was Ayrton Senna,
5:14
This is Diego Mobelli, is it not?
5:16
Have I got that right?
5:17
Absolutely.
5:18
Wow, that's amazing.
5:20
Yeah, he was Diego.
5:21
And Diego ended up becoming my mentor.
5:27
He introduced me to Ayrton.
5:29
Ayrton became my guidance, the person that, you know,
5:35
He was my reference.
5:37
Every time he came to Monza testing with McLaren, he was always coming to my house to see me and my dad and Diego.
5:44
So the early part of my career, everything happened by chance.
5:52
Many things lined up.
5:55
Obviously, I kind of look back at the fact that
5:59
I had a God gift.
6:00
Things were coming.
6:01
I was winning races.
6:02
But at the same time, think about how many times in the world you have...
6:08
the next door guy that is this super famous engine tuner besides Ayrton, then Diego Mombelli ended up working with the guys of, I mean, Alonso, Garcia, Fisichella.
6:21
He was really a genius.
6:23
One of the best, uh, engine tuner in the world.
6:26
He ended up two MotoGP World Championship with the Fausto Grazini in a Garelli, uh, and
6:33
Ayrton took a liking to me and he was really, you know, all the way before racing in Formula One was the person that actually paved my career.
6:43
He made me talk to West Surrey Racing.
6:46
He allowed me to go and run the Fuji Grand Prix with them.
6:51
So I was very well guided, you know, and I had...
6:57
and I had a tremendous will to make things happen.
7:00
I think that's the two parts of your story, Max, is that you talked about being in fortuitous moments with the people you met, but you also worked incredibly hard to make the most of those opportunities.
7:14
We'll come to more of that in this conversation.
7:17
People will be intrigued about the Senna connection.
7:20
Can I just explore that for a
7:23
You talk about him as though he was a little bit like a brother, a really positive influence.
7:30
You were there for some significant moments for him too.
7:33
I mean, fans listening to the pod will vividly remember, Max, the race in the rain at Monaco for him.
7:40
And you were there, weren't you?
7:41
Absolutely.
7:42
You know, I called Diego Monbelli, you know, and...
7:48
I told him I was going to, my, uh, with dad, we were going to go to Monaco.
7:52
It's like four hours drive from home.
7:54
Uh, took the golf GTI of my dad.
7:57
And, uh, I remember like yesterday, it was me, my brother, you know, on the side of this guy that nobody really knew who he was.
8:04
I remember Ayrton with this suit tagged on the bottom there around this Toleman and, uh,
8:12
I even bought a video camera, but I was too shy.
8:18
My dad kept telling, oh, just ask a couple of things to Ayrton so we can give it back to Diego.
8:23
And I wish I had that memory, but anyway...
8:27
The long story short, Ayrton puts up this master drive.
8:33
He finished second.
8:35
And we had agreed with him after the race to see each other at the paddock.
8:39
And we were going to drive him back to his apartment.
8:43
And then we were going to go home.
8:46
And I remember vividly, we show up with our white Golf GTI in the paddock.
8:55
this young kid comes in, Senna.
9:01
My dad is there.
9:03
Open the door.
9:04
I sit in the back.
9:06
Ayrton gives me his helmet that he just raced with.
9:08
You know, and I sit in the back.
9:11
And dad and Ayrton, they're sitting on the front.
9:13
And Ayrton says, I'm pissed.
9:16
You know, these French people, they stole it to me.
9:20
And I remember dad saying to Ayrton, hey,
9:23
I have a feeling that this might not be the only race you're going to have a shot to win.
9:29
And we left it like that.
9:31
And after that, so many special memories.
9:34
You know, he was just my friend.
9:36
You know, like, you know, every time he came over, he tried to help and guide me.
9:41
So I realize now how fortunate I was, you know, of having such an icon of,
9:52
But because I met him through this special person that was my mentor, Diego Monbelli, for me it was just Ayrton.
9:58
I remember spending time with him and his dad in Monza when Ayrton was testing the McLaren MP12, I believe, with the V10.
10:08
And me and his dad just having some gelato and talking about stuff.
10:12
So it was very special and exciting.
10:17
I feel very fortunate to have met him, to have had the opportunity to have some guidance from him.
10:23
And...
10:26
And maybe before the end of the conversation, I have one thing here of him.
10:32
I don't know if you want me to get it.
10:34
It's the 1990 helmet, I'm told.
10:36
Is this right?
10:37
And it's very special.
10:38
Yeah.
10:39
Awesome.
10:39
He's going to go while we're doing this podcast here and grab the helmet.
10:44
So we'll try and show you a little bit of this in a minute.
10:47
In a social media clip as well.
10:49
Here he is, all boxed up.
10:50
That is beautiful.
10:52
Beautiful.
10:53
So with Ayrton, he came to our house one day in 1990.
10:57
And he just presented that.
11:03
We got it, we signed it.
11:05
It's here.
11:06
I kept it.
11:07
In his iconic colors, the yellow, green, and black.
11:11
Yeah, I mean, that's him.
11:14
He wrote that for Massimiliano with French, con amicizia, Ayrton Senna, 300890.
11:22
Just tell people what that means in English.
11:24
What does that mean in English?
11:26
What has he written there?
11:28
For Max, with friendship,
11:31
Ayrton.
11:32
I love that.
11:32
Manza.
11:33
And the chicane, because me and him, we were always going to watch the Manza.
11:38
He always took me to turn one.
11:39
And to watch.
11:40
Me and him.
11:41
Yeah.
11:41
When I, when, when, when,
11:44
when we wanted to go and see and the car was out and all, it made me jump in the car.
11:48
We went there behind the barrier internal.
11:50
So awesome.
11:51
So awesome.
11:52
Yeah.
11:53
So yeah, I'm glad I was able to show you.
11:55
Thank you.
11:55
Thank you.
11:56
Yeah.
11:56
You know, very fortunate, very, very, very fortunate to have had this opportunity and I carry his legacy and his knowledge with me behind my helmet.
12:07
There, there is a sticker.
12:09
I don't know if it's here.
12:11
Yeah.
12:11
Yeah.
12:13
Behind every of my helmet, there is a sticker that since he passed away, it's a tribute to his helmet collar and written for you per te in Italian.
12:26
And I kept those little things behind my helmet since he passed away and has been with me in all my successes.
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Brilliant.
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In a little bit, his legacy is with me.
12:38
And just being able to talk about what he did and how he helped me, I think I'm just very fortunate.
12:44
We're fortunate to have heard those stories.
12:46
Thank you for sharing those.
12:47
Can I come to a couple of other quick carding stories before we move on in your career?
12:51
Firstly…
12:53
you get to race against Michael Schumacher, Jos Verstappen.
12:56
You've spoken about this on the spinning wheels podcast, I think where you talked about your work ethic against those guys and what an asset that was for you, the way you worked so hard off track as, as well in your, in your preparation in order to, to bring your best to the table when, when you were racing that sort of caliber of driver in carts.
13:19
I realized very early, um,
13:22
that talent would have not been enough if I would have not squeezed every ounce of the lemon that I had in my hand.
13:37
And maybe through the example of Senna around me,
13:47
watching guys like Michael Schumacher racing and see how focused he was, how committed he was.
13:56
I, I just realized that if I wanted to make it at any level, I had to have at least that level of commitment.
14:07
Um,
14:09
I guess that being surrounded in an era where you race karting against a guy like David Coulthard, Michael Schumacher, Joss Verstappen, if you can even see them or if you can battle with them, it's pretty special because those guys were incredible.
14:32
I always say that I realized later on that
14:39
especially people like those geniuses like Schumacher or, or Joss, but maybe they had three, 5% more God gift, pure speed that I had.
14:52
Um, and in order to try to keep up with them, I had to, you know, dig deep in every resources I had.
15:02
And, uh, uh, when, uh, I felt that, uh,
15:09
at my best day, you know, with the best of my preparation, you know, when they slipped a little bit, I could compete with them.
15:17
And, uh, then at the best day of a gentleman, like a Michael Schumacher with the same level of commitment that, uh, that I had or more, uh, and, uh,
15:31
maybe those three, four percent of extra talent, the guy was winning and I'm maybe gonna, I was finishing fifth, six, you know, but I was still being part of the hunt.
15:42
So what I just realized it was that, I saw the level of commitment of some of these great people.
15:50
And I learned that if I had to do something in life, I had to dig very deep because they were,
15:58
And I did that in every aspect of my life, in everything I could, you know, from off-track preparation.
16:06
I was one of the first person that I had a trainer.
16:11
You know, and again, people think about it.
16:14
He was a friend of mine.
16:16
He was an athletic trainer.
16:18
He was not nothing that you think about nowadays with all this fancy stuff.
16:23
But yeah.
16:25
I was always a little bit ahead of the curve in many, many things I did.
16:32
Because I wanted to find an edge and I wanted to be able to...
16:37
The normal for me was never enough.
16:42
Was it maybe because I didn't have that ultimate talent that some of this great genius had?
16:52
I don't know.
16:53
Was it just because this inner fire that I always had?
16:57
Hmm.
16:59
Maybe it was a combination of the two.
17:03
I know that it worked for me.
17:04
Definitely.
17:05
I love the drive, Max, and that is reflected in MPI and what you do now, the precision around that, which we'll get to.
17:13
In wrapping up a little bit of the karting, you clearly were good because you come to Australia to race at Orin Park.
17:20
You battle with someone who's been on my pod before in Russell Ingle.
17:24
That was a good memory for you too, wasn't it?
17:28
Absolutely.
17:29
Absolutely.
17:30
Or Russell.
17:30
I didn't know who he was.
17:32
You know, for me, it was just another guy that had to kick his butt.
17:35
And I remember I wrecked him.
17:41
Did you?
17:42
In the pre-final at the Castro Grand Prix in Orton Park.
17:47
And I wrecked him.
17:52
And in retaliation, I believe,
17:58
Yeah, actually, I remember exactly what happened.
18:00
In the pre-final, I'm leading.
18:03
Blow up the engine.
18:05
I have to start last in the final.
18:07
I'm driving through the field.
18:11
I arrived behind him.
18:14
Boom, I moved him.
18:16
Went by.
18:17
And then I go and race with him again in Hong Kong at the end of the year.
18:25
And I see this maniac in the rain that just run me over, put me in the barrier.
18:31
And then he went and said, you remember Ollon Park?
18:34
Yeah, I remember.
18:35
I like the, I like, it was super hot.
18:37
I really like the watermelon.
18:40
No, no.
18:40
He said, you don't remember.
18:42
And that was my relationship with Russell.
18:44
That was my relationship with Russell.
18:46
And we became friends after that, you know, but it was like, my God, you have a long memory.
18:51
I didn't even remember.
18:53
Like he basically waited.
18:55
six months to... Never forgot.
18:58
Never forgot.
18:59
In a different country, Hong Kong Grand Prix, in November.
19:04
These things happen in January, February.
19:06
The Castro Grand Prix in Orange Park was early in the season.
19:10
Love it.
19:10
It was my first time in Australia.
19:12
I loved it.
19:13
I loved everything of your country.
19:14
And it's, yeah, amazing memories.
19:28
So in your late teens, you're immersed in karting.
19:31
I think you even had a contract with Vega back then.
19:33
It seemed like you were really happy and that may have been your life.
19:39
But where did the first car race experience kind of come about?
19:42
Where were you for that?
19:44
And how did that shift into gear?
19:46
Greg, we had no ambitions as family.
19:50
You know, my dad had no ambitions to go any further than karting because, yeah, my family...
19:58
had, you know, some means, you know, but not means to take me all the way forward.
20:05
And so like we were just competing.
20:08
I was happy.
20:08
You know, we were racing for PCR.
20:11
I had a little contract that was making money.
20:13
And then something happened that I, I,
20:23
Yeah, I got an opportunity to test something that was very similar to a Formula Ford.
20:27
Okay.
20:29
In Monza, I jumped in the car.
20:33
You know, I was very competitive.
20:36
I don't remember exactly what I did, but I remember I ran all the time, top two or three.
20:40
I ran some local races at the short track in Monza.
20:45
you know, like where it's almost like an oval, you know, before going in the first chicane, you turn back, you're on the parabolic and they put two chicanes on the front stretch.
20:54
And there was this guy, you know, the car had a 500cc engine.
20:59
It was almost like a Formula Ford.
21:02
And that gave an opportunity later on,
21:10
to, uh, to, uh, do a test in a formula three car in Misano.
21:18
And, uh, because my dad in that period, I remember him and one of his friend somehow put together something like 40, $50,000 to give a hell to Alex and Hardy, you know, in formula three.
21:38
because Alex was a really good friend of our family.
21:42
At the moment when Alex could give back, he invited me to do a test in the same car in Formula 3.
21:47
And I did really well, and things started lining up.
21:51
And in order to make it happen, I still remember.
21:56
I have it at home.
21:58
I picked up the yellow pages, and I called, or actually faxed, every company...
22:07
within a couple of hundred miles where I lived that I thought that had something to do with racing or that could sponsor me.
22:14
And out of all these thousands of, I remember boxes like this or faxes, I was able to find the three generous people that they supported my career, you know, and,
22:27
they went all the way to start paying 60% of the Formula 3 budget.
22:33
Then I won races and there was no need to bring 100% of the budget.
22:38
The team made me race with 50% of the budget.
22:43
Then the last year of the Formula 3, I raced basically bringing 10% of the budget.
22:48
So I saved all the money that I had for sponsorship and I reutilized them to race in Formula 2.
22:55
the first year.
22:56
So it was by by no mean I spent more miles and kilometers sitting in the car going and visit people trying to find the money to make it happen than the one than the miles I had in the car.
23:10
But
23:11
I had to do it.
23:12
I did it.
23:12
And I learned tremendous in my life about that.
23:16
Tremendous.
23:17
Neil Crompton in commentary often talks about the university of motor racing and what it does right.
23:23
And that has been, at a very young age for you, a great skill that permeates everything you do now.
23:29
You have a reputation for longevity around relationships.
23:34
I mean, that was so important to ultimately helping this car racing career, wasn't it?
23:43
You plant a seed and you rip the benefit of the seed you plant a year after.
23:50
Um, I give you a humble and simple example.
23:57
Arai Helmet, they've been helping me since I'm 16 years old.
24:02
I've been with them all my life, uh, for 40 years.
24:08
Uh, did I have offer to change?
24:10
Yes.
24:12
Uh.
24:13
My loyalty towards people that have been helping me, is being the utmost loyalty I could have.
24:20
Same things for Alpinestar.
24:21
You know, Alpinestar, they've been guiding me.
24:23
Gabriele, you know, me and him, we designed one of the first racing shoes in 96, a Long Beach Grand Prix.
24:31
And I, for me, loyalty is everything.
24:34
And I like to pay people back in the same way that they helped me and,
24:43
And I learned that early days, you know, like going around, spent miles in the car, trying to...
24:52
I always tried to give back more than what I collected.
24:56
And that's my nature.
25:00
And I applied that way modem operandi in everything I do in my career, my life.
25:09
seems to work quite okay.
25:11
We had so many valuable takeaways here, Max.
25:13
As you're climbing, and in that era in Italy and Europe, there are some gun racing drivers all trying to make it to the top of wherever they're headed right.
25:25
Invariably, that must have meant rivalries for you too.
25:28
Were there people that – we got to know the –
25:33
the emotive Mad Max later on in your career, particularly in America.
25:38
But early on when you were younger, were there rivals too that you were trying to beat to get to that next stage, that next phase?
25:48
Absolutely.
25:51
Internally, I remember that there were...
26:00
you know, point of reference for my formula, uh, formula 3000 first year was David Coulthard.
26:06
Wow.
26:07
He was, uh, driving for Pulse 2 racing, uh, surrounded by great people and, um, you know, being able to, he was always my point of reference.
26:18
Okay.
26:19
And, uh, um, but again, you know, it's, I could name, uh, you know, in, in karting, uh, you know, I, when I started, uh,
26:29
You know, there were some of the most tremendous people out there.
26:33
Like, you know, if I look back at the level of talent, I'm trying to just, trying to recollect, think about my first Formula 3000 year.
26:45
You know, Olivier Panisse, Luca Badoer, David Coulthard, David Coulthard,
26:55
I mean, I can point other names.
26:59
I mean, people that they won races in F1, won races in Le Mans, created history.
27:08
He was…
27:10
not a walk in the park.
27:12
Even qualifying 15, 16 in F2, in F3000, was a big challenge.
27:18
And finishing fourth in my first race at fourth, fifth, I don't know, whatever, finished in Donington, it was like, I went like, oh, I'm pretty good.
27:30
Yeah, yeah.
27:31
Yeah.
27:32
When I look back, thank you for letting me reflect on that because...
27:36
Yeah.
27:36
You should.
27:37
Yeah.
27:37
Amazing.
27:37
Yeah.
27:38
I mean, what you drew from that.
27:39
I mean, the American part of your life represents the majority of your racing life in many respects.
27:45
But I want to touch on Formula One before we get to the US.
27:49
Firstly, the chance to drive an F1 car.
27:53
If I'm right, in your CV, was it with Lotus?
27:55
Who gave you the first ever drive?
27:57
Where were you?
27:58
What was that like?
27:59
And what feeling did that leave you with?
28:01
Again, talking about planting a good seed and ripping the benefit.
28:06
Alex was the race driver, Zanardi was the race driver of Lotus.
28:11
Uh, my dad helped him, you know, we stayed in touch.
28:15
We were always very good friend.
28:18
And, uh, after I won my first formula 3000 race in Barcelona, uh, Peter Collins, uh, uh, asked Alex, uh, some names and he gave, uh, he gave my name.
28:29
Um, I still remember I went to Ketteringham hall and they made me sit
28:35
I had no idea what was happening there, but I learned that later.
28:39
It was the same chair, you know, that Colin Chapman had all his driver sitting in it.
28:46
He made me wait for 30 minutes.
28:48
I had an interview.
28:52
They poured a seat in a car that was designed for Johnny Herbert that is like 25 centimeters shorter than me.
29:03
Yeah.
29:04
And I remember, like yesterday, talking to the mechanic that was put in the seat, I said, like, you know, even if we don't need to put a seat, I don't care.
29:18
Don't go and tell Peter that I cannot fit the car.
29:22
I don't care.
29:23
And I squeezed into the car, and I showed up in Silverstone the first time in August.
29:29
I think it was August 12th.
29:32
uh, you know, 1994.
29:35
And, uh, I mean, had a Mugen V10 behind.
29:39
It was, uh, uh, I mean, can you just imagine it was a dream coming through.
29:46
And, uh, I felt that, uh,
29:50
that would have been a great opportunity for me.
29:53
You know, everything was lined up to join Lotus the year after.
29:56
Unfortunately, Lotus folded up.
30:00
And so nothing happened on that side.
30:03
And, but, but Peter Collins, that was the, the team owner of Lotus back then.
30:15
Then he managed me.
30:17
And he helped me to sign a contract with Aeros Grand Prix.
30:20
And through those years, I built relationships that are still very valuable.
30:24
Like, I know we were on the car on that Lotus was Tommy Hilfiger, that back then was owned by Laurence Stroll, current Aston Martin boss.
30:35
I got to know Laurence, where I kept a great relationship.
30:39
Uh, I've been, I seen Lance, uh, almost been born.
30:43
Uh, so things happen for a lot of reasons.
30:47
Good things happen for a good reason.
30:48
So, you know, as I said, you know, maybe I didn't achieve, uh, you know, maybe it was a little bit of a disappointment by Formula One time because, uh, uh, uh,
31:00
the quality of people that I had around, and I was very mature as well.
31:05
You know, Ayrton was gone.
31:07
My family had no racing background, were kind of lost a little bit.
31:11
And, you know, don't just blame me around the people.
31:14
You know, I just looked at me first, you know, and it was an experience.
31:23
I learned a lot.
31:23
I'm proud to say that I went all the way to racing Formula One.
31:27
I have nine JP.
31:28
I'm a little pissed at the fact that in my own Grand Prix, I was in the point until one lap to go.
31:36
And Jules Bouillon passed me on the last lap because we never changed tires.
31:42
I was out there with the same tire from lap one.
31:46
That still burns, you know, because they were only giving away points to the top six, so I finished seven.
31:52
And...
31:54
But it's okay.
31:55
I learned a lot and I learned it made me be a better person.
32:00
And that opened the door to come to US and create a new life, a new career.
32:04
Can I just finish this with a little bit of context for the listeners?
32:07
I mean, you put an unbelievable business package together for the Drive With Footwork.
32:12
I think you put all of your money that you had at the time into it.
32:16
You feel on reflection that it wasn't perhaps the best timing for you.
32:21
And Etten had said to you about timing, timing being everything and whatever.
32:27
And their objectives as a business, if you like, perhaps didn't align with yours and what you were doing at the time.
32:35
But I love how with the benefit of time, Max, you look back on that now as something that taught you a lot, for as heartbreaking as that must have been.
32:46
And I think you basically, did you not retire at the, you called time, I think, at the end of that, didn't you?
32:51
Ayrton had not long been gone.
32:53
That experience had not gone the way you wanted it to.
32:56
And I think you basically stopped, didn't you?
32:58
Yeah, I did.
32:59
You're 100% right.
33:01
You put things in a great context.
33:05
I was alone.
33:06
You know, I spent every penny I had, basically, you know, through all the saving I had.
33:11
My dad helped me.
33:13
You know, we were, I remember going to see Mr. Minardi.
33:18
And after Minardi, after the meeting, I drove back and talked to dad and dad said, I told him, hey, dad.
33:25
But the best case scenario, we need to find a way to give them, you know, to find a whatever, you know, million dollar sponsorship or something like that.
33:37
And for what?
33:38
We're going to be last.
33:40
And I say, listen, we tried.
33:42
We did everything we could.
33:44
Ayrton is not here anymore.
33:46
That's it.
33:47
Finished.
33:48
You know, I, let's stop.
33:51
And it was 1995.
33:56
And a few days before Christmas, I got a phone call from, uh, Mr. Mario Vecchi that was very close friend with Piero Ferrari.
34:09
Uh, and he was my advisor.
34:12
Mario used to be the team manager of a Lamborghini in F1, Scuderia Italia, and he was like a second father for me.
34:20
And Mario told me, listen, uh, I talked to Piero.
34:25
They created this sports car.
34:28
They have a Ferrari 353 SP.
34:33
There is maybe an opportunity for you to drive it at Daytona.
34:38
And I went, okay, what do I need to do?
34:42
I said, how much money will cost?
34:44
I said, no, no, you can just drive it.
34:46
And I went, all right.
34:47
So I packed my stuff.
34:52
First week of January.
34:54
I showed up at Daytona by myself.
34:58
I think I showed up a week before everything.
35:01
I was one week too early.
35:03
Nobody was there.
35:05
And I basically put my butt in that car.
35:12
And I think to put things in context that I think people need to understand, sports car back then was a retirement plan.
35:20
Like the youngest guy...
35:23
that I was driving in that car was Michele Alborito.
35:26
That was, I mean, I was 25, 26, and Michele was 40-something.
35:32
Yeah, and so sports car was something that people did after achieving tremendous things in their life.
35:39
There was nobody 24 driving sports car.
35:41
I mean, I don't think nobody.
35:44
But the love for the sport,
35:47
I went all the way there and I had this opportunity to drive the Ferrari 33 SP and
35:56
That changed my life in Daytona.
35:58
It was a defining moment, wasn't it, in some ways?
36:00
I mean, you're not defined by that moment, but it helped perhaps launch you to the American audience.
36:08
It typified who you were as a racer.
36:12
I mean, people can look back on that.
36:13
For memory, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, right?
36:15
There's an epic fight back from you, a battle with Wayne Taylor, and we saw kind of Mad Max, didn't we?
36:23
Yeah, listen, you know, to summarize it is like this.
36:29
They didn't want to have me sitting in the car because they were concerned that I was going to break it.
36:33
Okay.
36:34
Because in sports car, you know, the team owner was so concerned because you had to drive it at a pace.
36:42
If you drove the car too hard, you know, it's not like nowadays that every, you know, endurance racing is a,
36:51
a bunch of super fast stint one after another.
36:55
You had to know how to nurture the car and everything.
36:58
And they said, no, this kid comes from Formula One.
37:01
He's going to sit in the car.
37:02
He's going to disintegrate my car.
37:03
So they made me drive the minimum necessary.
37:09
And then when Bob Bollick had basically collected another car in the bus stop, we went down four laps and I went, all right, we screwed.
37:20
Put him in the car.
37:22
And it was about three hours to go, I believe, three, four hours to go.
37:26
And I remember vividly, I went, Max, this is your shot.
37:33
You know, show them who you are.
37:37
And I asked them if I could push.
37:40
And they told me, yes, we made up two laps to Wayne Taylor.
37:47
we finished 37 seconds behind the leader.
37:50
That back then was the closest ever finish in the history of the 24 hour and, uh, coming out of the car on the phone with Montezemolo, uh, and, uh,
38:07
I got an interview from ESPN, Bob Varsha.
38:10
He was like, hey, Max Pappis.
38:12
And I went, sir, my name is, I thought, sir, my name is Max Pappis.
38:19
P-A-P-I-S. And maybe people thought I was arrogant.
38:26
I don't know.
38:26
But like, you know, I wanted so bad not just to be a number.
38:32
Mm-hmm.
38:34
that I would have done anything.
38:36
And then I won races with a Ferrari and that opened door to my entire career in America.
38:48
And I grabbed the opportunity with two hands because I knew that...
38:57
I just had a feeling when I came to US, people were really...
39:03
looking for the talent.
39:06
They were looking for the personality.
39:08
They were praising the fact that maybe I was a little more, I was a genuine person.
39:19
We saw your character.
39:20
We saw your personality, didn't we?
39:22
Yeah.
39:22
Yeah.
39:23
And I felt that that was a perfect combination.
39:27
I felt that being myself was actually positive, while sometimes in Europe I got criticized because you're
39:34
you wanted to have the picture perfect person of what is a race car driver.
39:38
And sometimes I'm a little bit outside that the parameter and it allowed my career to, you know, to become what it is and make a living being able to, to have a lot of satisfaction.
39:52
And, you know, and it was maybe the only one time in my life that I didn't,
40:03
planned for something, but it actually happened by itself.
40:07
So pretty amazing.
40:11
Yeah, pretty amazing.
40:11
I mean, it didn't happen by osmosis though, Max, because what you brought to the table in that moment opened a whole new door for you, a whole new chapter.
40:21
And then you, I mean, even in recent weeks before we recorded this podcast, you've been at Daytona, you keep, you know, you had a wonderful connection with that place and even a bit of sports car racing.
40:38
That's the end of part one of an awesome chat, as you can tell, with Max Pappas.
40:43
But we are not done yet.
40:44
There's more gripping stories to come from his time in Champ Car and NASCAR, being a part of what they affectionately called the Brat Pack, a legendary group of drivers who all wanted to beat each other on track, but they had this deep mutual respect off it.
41:01
Mentoring the Dylans, driving supercars, and establishing a motorsport business that made
41:06
quite a mark around the world and continues to by reinventing the wheel the steering wheel and it's been a success story in all sorts of classes too including supercars but it's not just for the top end of town we will talk mpi innovations as well it's all in part two of my feature episode here on rusty's garage which is all loaded up and in the library for you to enjoy whenever you're