Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.347: CODEX Is Redefining & Decoding The Skincare Space One Product At A Time

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E.347: CODEX Is Redefining & Decoding The Skincare Space One Product At A Time · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so before the episode starts, I just want to take a minute and just rave about how much I am obsessed with this brand.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Codex is, I think, one of the very few brands I've discovered that has shown me real results within hours.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be sharing something with you guys very soon.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually a um I consider it to be clinical, um, you know, clinical data that supports why I support this brand so much.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had a very, very bad reaction, you know, to some other skincare the other day, and I used their brand new line, uh, which is called shiny.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: And shot means call in Hindi, and it literally lives up to its name.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: I can't even tell you enough.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Wait till you see my before and after pictures.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: You guys are gonna be like, holy moly, this is crazy.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So shot definitely is worth your investment.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's the whole line.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's such a beautiful line.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: There's the mask, there's the toner, there's the cleanser, and then there's the moisturizer, and it is absolutely wonderful.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um skin, it is beautiful.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it also it's uh rooted Ayurveda, which is freaking amazing.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a beautiful line, and all of Kodak's line, like the entire line is just amazing.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Every product I've ever tried I think has been a huge homeland.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I can't endorse this one enough.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's absolutely phenomenal, and I can't wait for you guys to listen to this episode with Barbara, who is the founder of their brand, and just kind of just hear how much science goes into what they make.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's truly extraordinary, and it makes sense because Barb has a PhD and she's you know, um, she's really with the science.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: She's not messing around.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: So check out the episode and go by Kodak, you guys.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love it, I love it, I love it.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Great thing.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Have a great, great day.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yet again, I'm so excited.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm actually a huge fan of this line, particularly because they have just the most beautiful range of products, and everything is just so wonderful, efficacious.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's doing exactly what it promises.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the founder of Codex Beauty, Barbara Pauldus.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show, Barbara.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to be hosting you.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Ecta.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited to be here too.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I really want to get started, Barb, with your background and your uh whole career journey, you know, everything that has led up to Codex, you know, if you could kind of get us started and uh walk us down memory lane.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um I became a scientist because my dad allowed me to be curious and he supported me at a time I'm 51 when women were really not supposed to be geeks.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he taught me to question everything, gather data, and then try to understand what it all meant.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes in the process, I even discovered new stuff, which was always incredibly exciting.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so this led me to work in analytical instrumentation.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: I founded a company called Vicaro, where we measured pollution, greenhouse gases, and even chemical warfare agents at one point, and then eventually moving into biotech with uh Finesse Solutions, where we designed biotech equipment for manufacturing everything from vaccines to cancer therapeutics and gene therapies.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, my big moment of excitement was when obviously Pfizer, Moderna, and JJ manufactured COVID and equipment we installed between 2014 and 2017.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of my background.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I start, yeah, not really, not really skincare.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but that's cool.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I rarely get to interview entrepreneurs with such an amazing science background.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: So continue, please.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't mean to interrupt you.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so originally, you know, I uh how should I put it?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: My vision for Codex was really to design a brand for clinically proven products.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that vision was somewhat derailed by learning more about the beauty industry and being told by a lot of marketing experts that we were doing it all wrong and having come from really science.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, oftentimes, Ecta, I spoke a very different language to people in the industry, and half the time no one understood why I even wanted to measure anything.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so to some extent, it felt like we had entered the matrix and nothing was truly real.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, everything from Instagram face and filtering to stories, you know, told by other founders that contradicted chemistry and science that I knew.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it was all very confusing at the beginning.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's funny now, it's four years later.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually going to very shortly be proudly dropping the word beauty from our name.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we're actually proud that we have four issue patents, you know, the three collections, Bia, Entu, and Shant for very specific skin solutions and the largest number of products that are my microbiome certified in the world.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we also have one of the largest collections of products with the seal of approval from the National Psoricis Foundation.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, and next year we're launching OTC.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: I embrace the FDA.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't run away from the FDA.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I think the FDA has a very important purpose to serve.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so our present and future mission is really now to create a movement where customers can really understand their skin, to bring real science and real measurements into the industry with actionable numbers.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm done with storytelling.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so we want to give consumers ultimately the choice, right?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Think blue pill or red pill, right?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we want to see how far deep we can go down the rabbit hole.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I honestly, I can't commend you enough.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're really speaking my language.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just tell you right now, you know, I I hear you, you know, I hear you 100%.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And everything you said, I can't tell you how much I resonate with that, even with just the podcast, you know, starting this podcast.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I think you'll understand what I mean when I say that, you know, my I think my first frustration with the skincare industry was nobody had doses of anything.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, nobody.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like there were no dosing criteria.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: There were no um, you know, like uh just I guess outlines of you know, what is in here, what are the ingredients, at what levels are they active?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody was talking about this stuff.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, well, what the heck?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can't be putting this stuff on your skin and it sits there all day and you don't know how much of it is there.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I I hear you.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point, actually, if you look at things like levels of um preservatives, you know, some of these standards were created 20 years ago when people used maybe three to four products.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you look at you know, usage today, a lot of women use 12 to 15 products every day.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, are those metrics really up to date for consumer habits?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly, absolutely.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, uh a big thing, you had mentioned the FDA, and I yeah, I I completely agree with your sentiments about the FDA.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I definitely support them.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I know they're there for a reason, but one thing that really irks me is that most of our, you know, current uh treatment options in dermatology are very, very outdated.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've said this time and time again on this podcast, and I and I really do stand behind it, where you know, I think that skin care and skin treatment brands such as yours are actually the new wave.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the FDA really needs to get behind it because at the end of the day, you know, using something that was derived from a tree bark, you know, in the 1800s or 1600s is not something we need to be, you know, pushing to consumers and to patients every day, you know.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, especially since we have biotechnology, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, especially also because we have uh, you know, genetic testing now.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you can completely figure out a person's entire genome and figure out what's good for them.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't see any excuse as to why we're not going in that direction.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, um, I love that you started us off like that.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I really actually want to talk um about your product because I know that each line serves a very specific purpose.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: So when you were crafting your concept and your, you know, overall uh view of the line, what were some of the things that you had in mind in terms of the pathologies you wanted to focus on or the consumer base you wanted to focus on?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: If you could kind of give us a walk down your, you know, your thought process at those early stages.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So um, as we started learning about skin, the first thing that we ran into was obviously the skin barrier.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that being the acid mantle or the microbiome, and then the physical skin barrier.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was one of the first things that we really wanted to restore and protect because without obviously changing creating dysbiosis in the microbiome, um, because then that can lead to other issues.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so making a microbiome-friendly preservative system was actually one of the first things that we wanted to do, and that's where we reached out to Lactobacillus ferments, um, again, made with biotechnology.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we created the Preserve X system, which, when we tested in blanks, for example, against your other common preservative systems like phenoxyethanol or the parabens that are still allowed by the industry, um, actually do uh less damage in terms of um at the concentrations that we use them.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is less uh diversity uh change in the microbiome before and after the application, as well as attenuation of the microbiome.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of the first um thing that we wanted to do because a lot of products are water-based products.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we wanted an efficacious preservative system.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And now four years later, we have lifetimes that are you know comparable to the most traditional preservative systems in the industry.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then we wanted to add functionality.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so the first collection be used really not just for hydration, but to remove dead skin cells.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: So there we discovered, for example, Comfrey, which has a long history in Irish ethnobotany, from it was in fact for used for bone healing.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's really good for skin cell turnover.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look at the genes that it activates, um it stimulates uh keratolysis.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's great about that is if you have a lot of dead skin, again, if you put a cream on top of it, it will sit there, right?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to remove those dead skin layers so that the hydration can actually go in and into the skin barrier and deliver that moisturization into the skin barrier because again, dehydration causes oxidative stress, oxidative stress causes inflammation, um, you know, and then if that goes deeper into your epidermis and dermis, you start, you know, losing essentially, you know, your fibroblasts and you start um reducing your collagen, then your collagen starts breaking down.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So what we started realizing was that you had to address hydration, you had to address inflammation.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you could deliver products kind of that, for example, with a glycerin um carrier that could penetrate not only the skin barrier but go into your all the way through to your dermal epidermal junction, then you could start really reducing that reactive oxidative stress and the body has an incredible healing capacity.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can basically modulate the IL inflammatory genes properly, then you can essentially start a self-healing process in the skin.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it takes, you know, even if you're super young, it's 14 days.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you're older like me, it's probably, you know, four to six weeks.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the point is that your skin restores itself.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have an intact skin barrier.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're no longer losing moisture, so the moisturizer works better.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And now you actually have a positive supporting cycle to have healthy skin.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so those were so we first focused on hydration and inflammation, and then with our acne collection, we focused more on the acne inflammosome, which is more focused on hair follicles, because um, again, there's inflammation of the hair follicles, cell death leading to commodones.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can actually maintain homeostasis of those uh follicle cells, and we can then regulate the sebum production and the sebicytes, then we start winning because the irritation stops, the overproduction of sebum stops, you stop forming plugs, there's no longer an overabundance of sebum for your acne's uh bacteria to go crazy and you know increase the reproductive cycle and form pimples.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can basically reach a state of homeostasis and maintenance without having to go to antibiotics, because we all know that long-term use of antibiotics may not be the best way forward.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And some of these, you know, very severe treatments, you know, obviously for very severe acne, you know, they're critical.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have mild acne, you don't necessarily want to just be put on accutane.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you um really kind of dove into a lot of really interesting areas.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to share with you today.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, my manuscript was accepted.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: I wrote a paper um literally titled, Do over-the-counter treatments um for that are microbiome-enhancing products, do they offer any kind of preventative care for skin health?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: It was published, um, it will be published, but it was accepted today.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the points that was brought up was this idea of sebum that I wrote about.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the sebum aspect is so important because you're right, it it contributes to the formation of acne if it's you know, if there's dysregulation, but it also contributes to like some sort of um, you know, imbalance in your sebum production will also contribute to the microbiota that is present on your skin surface.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that is also like it's a very delicate balance that we have to be able to achieve so that we're treating acne, but we're not stripping the normal microbiome and the normal um flora of our skin.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that it's a very, very interesting topic.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And also, you know, to touch on your top your conversation that you started about the inflammation, I completely agree with you there as well.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, again, touching on the microbiome, when we have inflammation, like you said, the intraleukins are, you know, they're coming in, they're signaling other, you know, white blood cells to come in and treat the problem.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: But what happens during that time is you're going to have things like oxidative burst.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna have things, and these are all terms that refer to things that kill bacteria.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: So again, you're messing up your microbiome.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like all of this is coming into basically this, you know, one thing, which is you're screwing up your microbiome.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's one of these contradictions, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have products that, you know, claim to be microbiome friendly, yet they have no proven clinical efficacy.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have very highly efficacious products that, as you said, you know, create dysbiosis in the microbiome.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it took us forever to create the OTC products we're launching next year, because imagine trying to formulate a 2% salacid face scrub that is microbiome friendly, right?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's a nightmare because you need it to be effective, you need it to have mechanical exfoliation, and yet you do not want to change the diversity or the or attenuate the microbiome.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so glad that you've taken your time with this because it's an area that's very, very tricky and it's very difficult.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, one of the things that really bothers me, and that's why I'm so so honored to be hosting you here, because there are a lot of brands that love that term for marketing purposes.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: They love the term microbiome, they love using the term, you know, uh bacteria and your, you know, your skin flora, and and these are just words to them.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I sit there as a scientist, you know, much like yourself, and I think, you know, you're you're directing an entire consumer population towards believing something that hasn't even been proven yet.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like exactly.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have no clue, we haven't even touched the surface when it comes to understanding the microbiome.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my father told me a long time ago, he's actually an expert in the microbiome.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: He's done extensive research, he's been national, internationally acclaimed.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and he told me a long time ago when I was still in college, he said, you know, Ecca, think of your microbiome like a fingerprint.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's different for everybody.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody has a unique microbiome, and that is that applies to your gut, that applies to your skin, that applies to every single place you find bacteria, which is everywhere.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Armpeds, vagina, you name it.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like, you know, it's I hate it because marketing has turned it into this ridiculous concept where I'm sitting here and all of the scientists I know that work on this field are just like, I they don't even look in this direction.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: They're just like so irritated.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I am very, very excited that Codex has taken this on and it's, you know, you guys are doing it properly and you're putting the due diligence behind it because this it's long overdue.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's funny because I am fascinated by skin gut brain access.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So not just relationship between skin microbiome and gut microbiome, because now there's a lot of uh dermatitis research, you know, leaky gut versus um, you know, dermatitis and other inflammatory conditions, like the work being done by Dr.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Peter Leo.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's all kinds of discoveries, I think, that are going to be made and where we can in fact also add integrative dermatology, such as, you know, what can we in fact affect through diet?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Can we, in fact, create probiotic supplements that are truly functionally efficacious, right?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: But all of it goes back to clinical trials, clinical trials.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, it it irks me too that there's so much storytelling in the industry without any proof.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why, that's why we created the efficacy panel, because it irks me to hear, you know, well, 85% of consumers, you know, felt more hydrated.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking, okay, well, that's great.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Where is there a hydration sensor in your skin?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know of pain sensors and temperature sensors and pressure sensors that are embedded in your skin, but where is there a hydration sensor or like an evaporation sensor that you know your skin barrier is leaking?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like seriously.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I know.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: I hear you.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: I completely hear you.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Not even your skin.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Where is it in your brain?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh when it comes to temperature, your hypothalamus knows when you're too hot or too cold and it regulates you.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to know where the heck in your brain that is.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Good point.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I I completely hear you.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just, I think it's just ridiculous.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I absolutely, you know, I I really think that it's time for a change.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you made it very easy to understand in your statement when you said that, you know, you're tired of the storytelling.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I hear you, I completely agree with you, even though, you know, my podcast is about storytelling, but real storytelling, you know, like real story.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it's about science, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Explaining it's science education, which I think is also something that's woefully, you know, inadequate.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And is, you know, there are a few kind of high points, you know, like ecowel and um other people, but I mean it's it's it's woefully inadequately missing in the industry.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I agree.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, I want to actually talk to you about this brand new collection you've come out with, Shant.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I love it because you know, Shant in Hindi means calm, everybody listening.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I when I first saw the collection, I was like, oh, I love this, you know, it hit home.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh it's a part of home, and I love how you've done such justice to my culture.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: I want to just, you know, really give you props, Barb, because the ingredients that you've utilized are really rooted in Ayurveda, they're rooted in the culture from which the name is derived.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't ever get to see that.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And to see it, and when I was reading, like, you know, the ingredients and the descriptions, I was just so excited and happy.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, she did it, she did it right.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we had we had the privilege actually of working with Dr.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Raja Sivavani.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So not only is he an expert dermatologist and acne, um, but he's also certified Ayurbetic Practitioner.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we had a lot of help and guidance.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's great.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, whatever, you know, whatever your your your uh methodology was, it worked and it really, really hit home with me.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to talk to you all about this and like you know, this new line because we've gotten already, you know, just from the followers I have, we've we've seen some interest already from my little, you know, personal blog.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to discuss what really kind of inspired you in terms of creating this line.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what were the things that you you know envisioned when you first came out with you know with the concept of it?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a child who is 13 now and who has acne.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So um I figured this would happen at some point because my father had acne.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I want to study is, you know, genetic predisposition for acne so that parents can plan um for their kids, you know, kind of when they're around 11 or 12.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so what you know, I just wanted something that wouldn't be um run of the mill and that would really address acne, but from a physiological perspective, um, and wasn't just about stripping sebum.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you look at a lot of the products that are out there, Yes, they're amazing at stripping sebone, but there's a lot more to acne.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so the reason it's called calm is that's kind of our simplified version of we want to address cell homeostasis, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: But we couldn't, if we called it homeostasis, everybody would be like, what the hell is this name?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So and Sean does justice to the Ayurvedic tradition.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So really we wanted to do look at a couple different aspects.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So one was sebum control.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And for that, we found that this little cute green microalgae called Tetracellus Chewy is really effective at decreasing sebum production.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it happens that it's really easy to amplify this microalgae in a bioreactor.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really easy to manufacture really sustainable, because we're also a little bit obsessed with sustainability ECTA.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Then we added patchouli, pagestumon tablin, because it turns out that in fact it truly enhances skin homeostasis via the CB2 receptor system.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's the same endocannabinoid system, you know, that other cells, for example, in the brain, the same receptor for cannabis.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: That seems to calm everybody down.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: But we found that it was actually great because it prevents cell death.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it in fact it modulates tumor necrosis factor alpha.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that was, yeah, so so that will prevent all the irritated and flame, you know, your acne inflammosome irritated cells in the hair follicle from dying and forming commodones.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um then go to Cola because you get the redness.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from we we looked at the impact database in India.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's this database of 2000 Ayurvedic plants, where they've done everything from the HPLC analysis and they've done just amazing work characterizing really the chemical properties and the actives that are found in these various plants.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So then we could isolate the plant stem cells.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so Sentinella Abseatica is not just good for wound healing, which you want to prevent, you know, scars from acne, but it's also really good at reducing redness.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that was part of the soothing.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, Fuco spiralis or spiral rack, so it's big brown algae, um, is real has some amazing um molecules called fucoitans.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And those are, again, really great anti-inflammatory polysaccharides, and they come for an irritated skin.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that allowed us to kind of prevent the shedding of dead skin.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, and then we added things like Fucuchiol, for example, which if you do want to have cell turnover, so the dead skin goes away and again doesn't build up, you know.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we could complement this oil control cell homeostasis complex with then, you know, the oil control cream that helps cell turnover during the day.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: We could complement it, for example, um, with Tulsi for the foaming cleanser, that is really amazing again at clearing pores because the other kind of the supplementary ingredients in here are to really clear and shrink pores.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the clinical data, um, I can, you know, I can send that to you, but it's amazing how much, I know it doesn't sound like much, but a seven to eight percent reduction in pore diameter means it's no longer visible on a VIZIA imaging system.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um it really does clean and shrink the pores.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that was basically the strategy is prevent cell death, reduce sebum production, clear and shrink the pores so that they don't get dirty, and then finally soothe the redness.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: So very different approach to just working a strip seboom.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's definitely, definitely, you know, it it makes sense.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's what really what I'm trying to say.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: It makes sense.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I noticed that you also have neem in one of the formulations, is that correct?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: That is absolutely correct.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's in the toner.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and neem is actually an amazing antibacterial and it's an amazing antioxidant.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I want to share a story with you actually, because when I when I um saw neem, I was like, oh my god, this is brilliant because neem is actually used in rural India, in North India.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's used on the daily by even my grandma.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my mother actually had very bad acne when she was a teenager, like very like cystic lesions that are were just everywhere on her face.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: And she used neem.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so what her mother would do would be like basically, you know, extract it and you know, use it as like kind of like an emulsion, I guess.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And she would um kind of spot treatment and it worked immediately for her.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was like she even told me she was like, you know, there was um like the neem, like you know, the actual tree that it comes from, like it was um used in a way that you would even put it in baths as a soak, and people would, you know, just sit in there if there was any kind of like rash, or if you broke out with like, for example, how we get poison ivy in the West, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: And they would soak in it and it would work overnight.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was just a miracle, you know.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like she used that growing up.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's all she used.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Her her anti-acne was neem.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, love when I saw that because you know, it was really, really cool to see that in your ingredient list.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is really good stuff.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is gonna work really, really well.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I I just think that there's so many gems hidden in Ayurveda that if you really apply modern Western medicine and just kind of tweak, you know what I mean, the concentrations and you tweak the it's gonna be this beautiful blend of product.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just, I think you're doing such a phenomenal job already with this new collection.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, really hats off to you there.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, we combine them with kind of more modern ingredients, right?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like gluconolactone or glycolids, you know, all kind of plant-based or sugar-based.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: So again, maintaining cell membrane stability, maintaining cell membrane, you know, integrity in the case of the glycolids and you know, the gluconolactone really helping to hydrate, but also, you know, protect from environmental factors.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I love ashwagandha too.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of other Ayurvedic ingredients, so that's another amazing, amazing plant.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not just for oil production, but in general, again, it's an anti-inflammatory that is just beyond.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that isn't that the best?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Is that we have so much in nature that is already like a treatment.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like I always talk to people about this, and I'm like, why are we, you know, I I it's like I've had this conversation with so many people.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, if you're if you're a scientist and you you believe in you know, creating new molecules.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well, that's the most retarded thing I've ever heard.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a scientist, you're gonna go out in nature and look for the cure for stuff.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And this is exactly what Ayurveda stands for.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like it's a very, very brilliant approach to trying to figure out what are the remedies.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because yeah, you know, like you said, ashwagandha, wonderful, wonderful ingredient.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you use it, you use it as an ingestible, as a topical, as anything, you know, and so it's like I don't understand why people don't gravitate more towards this, you know, this kind of thinking is my point.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, for example, like because it's hard work, right?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to go get the plant, you have to do the genetic expression, you have to figure out, you know, the cells and the stem and the leaf and the flower all different, you know, they may have different functions.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a lot of triage and a lot of hard work.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: It is, but you know, if you're gonna do things right, and I and I really urge everybody listening, if you're an entrepreneur and you're thinking of starting a line, I really urge you, you know, do your homework, be a scientist, you know.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: We don't need more just people with ideas, we need people who can apply those ideas and really bring them, prove them.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, exactly.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, a hypothesis is a hypothesis, but that's not the that's the beginning step of the scientific protocol.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I I want to actually I want to move um into the more business side of things, Barb, because I would love to get you point as a businesswoman as somebody who has built her brand to be so, so, you know, just um successful, which is very rightfully deserved.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um I would love to get your opinion and your insight on how that has been for you, especially with a scientific mind.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, maybe you could share some more stories with us, you know, just how it's been launching the brand, sustaining the brand, all that good stuff.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: So um so far I haven't taken any outside investment because as we were figuring out who we were and what we're doing, it's been a little bit of a soul searching exercise.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, when we first started, it was intimidating to be in the beauty industry.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you see all these beautiful people.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's where we started realizing, you know, we truly are the red pill from the matrix.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we want to look at reality.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: There are over 70 million Americans who suffer from skin conditions, whether that's acne or eczema, arcoriasis or rosacea.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And those people are not worrying about looking beautiful.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're worrying about itching, scratching, bleeding, getting infections, feeling uncomfortable in their own skin.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so we wanted to reach out and find solutions for them.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's been three years, I guess, Ekna, of a journey.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: We are finally, finally now this year, where we're supposed to be in two more weeks.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually really excited.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're removing the word beauty from our name.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it never really belonged there.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we should have probably called ourselves just the Codex from the beginning.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be known as Codex Labs because I really want to emphasize that we're a science first brand, um, marketing second.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um interestingly, we've had a lot of success in Europe, um, which is um far more, I would say, science-minded.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think right now for the United States, we now want to start educating.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we have the seal of approval now for the entire Entu collection and many of the BA products from the National Psoriasis Foundation.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have a couple SEALs from the National Eczema Association, and we're going to be getting more of those next year.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so we really want to focus in on people with skin conditions.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so we really see ourselves more as a clinical brand.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we work now far more tightly with dermatologists.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: We want to enable quantification of skin conditions because, again, um, diagnosis of skin conditions is difficult in and of itself when you know, and you can you can relate to this when somebody walks in with a red patch on their skin and wants to know what's wrong with them.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there can be all different kinds of condition types, and it's impossible to just look at it and say, you know, you have, you know, this type of psoriasis, for example.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um we want to really create diagnostics to enable that, and we want to move um health care forward.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we now see ourselves really as a healthcare company rather than as a beauty company, and I think that's where we can make the biggest difference for people.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that you've added, you've removed beauty and you've added labs.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's really, really great.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that, you know, I will I think it's great, but I also have a question because now you're since you are entering the healthcare space.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, are there any extra like things that come with that in terms of you know liabilities and uh, you know, you know, all that stuff like with business?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I always have a hard time grasping, you know, um, with come when you form a company and then you you are shifting towards this more medical-based, science-based, you know, um, I guess, vibe, and you're known for that.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Are there anything, you know, is there anything that has to be changed, you know, logistically for you guys?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, honestly, it's like coming home, you know, after four years, you know, confined to the island of Elba, you know, somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um things like, you know, you're if you're going to be doing any kind of diagnostic, your database has to be HIPAA compliant.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you need to make sure you have the right regulatory auditors to make sure all of your data is protected the right way.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're making OTC products, you know, we've already registered everything from the GECCA with the FDA.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we we participated in the voluntary registration program for day one.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: But with OTC drug products, obviously there's additional stability testing, there's the active stability testing.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we've done all that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're ready to basically start moving into OTC.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, we're excited because it's almost like to me, you know, the healthcare industry is like a poet writing a sonnet.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much easier and so much more meaningful to create something amazing if there's a structure in place and you have to abide by a set of rules.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because then if you truly create something innovative, you've almost transcended the rules, but you still abide by the rules, if that makes sense.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so um there's there's benchmarks, there's metrics.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, now we're in a space where all the clinical efficacy data that we have are appreciated.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you show the efficacy panel to a dermatologist and they read it and they kind of shake their head and look at you and say, I understand exactly how to recommend this product.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you show it at Sephora, they give you a completely blank stare and are like, why would anybody care?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I've come home, you know, we've come full circle and now we're home and we're in a place where we're comfortable and where we can really contribute and we can really help move along this part of the skincare business.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, this is really cool stuff.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you're really trailblazing a brand new category of skincare and skin health products because, you know, I think a lot of the brands I've interviewed, they are very much stuck between this, you know, a rock and a hard place where they are science-backed, they are science heavy, but they still are struggling with this beauty side of things.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: That that word beauty, I feel like it can kind of be a leash around your neck sometimes because it prevents you from expanding.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: It prevents you from just, you know, really sticking to the true nature of science, which is exploring.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like a lot of brands should step away from it in a way that is, you know, best for them, but also in, you know, for their consumers, because you're like you said, there's still Reddit forums that are filled with people who are posting pictures with picking skin, you know, they're picking at their scars, they're picking at their acne, they're confused, frustrated, they don't know what's going on.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you know, I go on those forums almost every day, Barb.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Every day I go on these forums and I'm like recommending products, you know what I mean?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Just to do it.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Just to that's amazing.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm so I feel so humbled, Ecta.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, I no, I I I really feel like it needs to be done.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I I'm just like an anonymous user and I go on there and I, you know, if I'm sitting around because I feel so much pain for them because I know that as a consumer who lives somewhere out in the middle of nowhere, you know, you don't have a lot of options.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: You have a Walgreens next to you or a CVS and maybe a Target.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: You what do you have, right?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: What what products do you have?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have enough available to you.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, it it frustrates me to see companies that are, you know, very well funded.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're multi-billion dollar companies, but they won't invest in this kind of education.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I think that the people that are on Reddit or on any forum and they're looking for real options, you know, this is a you're really, you know, you're you're trailblazing a new era of skincare.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I'm really excited for that.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And next year we want to bring access to teledermatology to the picture because you can't just have the solutions, you know, and I don't want to have, you know, pieces of software that kind of give you some kind of score and then basically say, oh, buy these products.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, I want to refer people to a professional, you know, whether that's a DPA or a DERM MD, or if certain people want a naturopathic, you know, solution.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I want to basically provide integrative uh dermatology help to people.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, there's so many people, you know, there's three, 3.4, I think, dermatologists per 100,000 people.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really concentrated in the large urban areas like you're in New York, senior, Los Angeles, you know, Chicago, Miami, Dallas, and then there's the rest of the country.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's that's a wonderful initiative, by the way.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Congratulations.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really excited about that.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and melanated skin, because um, believe it or not, you look at a lot of these AI tools, um, what nobody talks about, you know, the underbelly of the industry is they don't work particularly well for melanated skin.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And even Google, you know, with Google Health and Google AI is struggling um to make diagnoses on um on melanated skin.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: So there's, I think, again, lots of opportunities for science and engineering to come and solve that.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for saying that.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: I can't tell you I am literally obsessed with you at this point, just because you just said that.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because honestly, I kid you not, a couple of years ago, I I started this uh, it was a little, you know, I was working with some pre-meds and they had reached out to me.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: We started this page called Brown Skin Health.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the first things I wrote for them, they asked me to write a review, and I said, brown skin, melanated skin is not the same as non, you know, non-heavily melanated skin.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of differences.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just about UV.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about it.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Structurally, it's structurally different.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it is structurally different, it is very different.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: The way that the, you know, the epidermis is, the way that the follicles are, the way that everything is different.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I've even, you know, Barb, you will be shocked.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: I have talked to dermatologists and they have had the audacity to tell me as a researcher, I'm sitting here with proof in my hands, knowing that there's a difference, and they're sitting there like, no, there's no difference.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, please just give up your license.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, please just don't even practice anymore.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Again, this is where if we can bring quantitative tools to the consumer at home where they can measure themselves, what is that dermatologist going to say?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can map, like what was amazing to me, there's this one French publication where they actually mapped, I think it was like 43 different points on the face.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you know, they looked at um Asian characteristics, Caucasian characteristics, African characteristics, and Hispanic, Latino characteristics.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And for example, the transepidermal water loss patterns on the face are completely different, which means the pore distributions on the faces are completely different.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: And again, if you look at it from the cold, hard, objective scientific perspective, from an evolutionary perspective, it makes complete sense based on the environment.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, did you evolve in a hot, dry climate?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Did you evolve in a very cold, dry climate or a hot and humid climate?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's biology, right?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's biology, it's physiology, it's just anatomy, you know, it's it you have to you have to really understand that every single person, and it really comes back to that original point of your microbiome is a fingerprint, right?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so is your so is your skin.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: No one's skin is going to be the same as anybody else's.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this era of customization has started.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like, you know, this this new movement of customization.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: I recently interviewed proven skincare's uh founders, and I was really uh excited because, you know, they're kind of putting like, you know, they're starting this idea of you know customizing, but even still even right.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: But then how do you customize and still prove efficacy, ACTA, right?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's now a combinatorial problem from hell, right?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: You read my mind, exactly.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the way we see it is we create a matrix of solutions where each product has a very, very specific function, and we can prove the clinical efficacy of that specific product for that specific function.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: And now if you have 20 or 30 of these products in your toolbox, combinatorially, you can find combinations that are personalized.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the regimen that becomes personalized from a toolbox.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: That really does.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also like, you know, um, I like to, you know, I like to compare skincare, Barb, to like, you know, cell culture.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the media that you use in cell culture.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: And for everyone listening, you know, media is basically the stuff that you put in on top of cells that you're growing to feed them.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: I look at skincare like that because it's like you don't always use the same media, you have to change it out based on what you want yourself to do.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want yourself to start expressing certain receptors, you start treating them with different media.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the same thing with skin.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you want your skin to start doing different things, and if you want your cells to start responding in different ways or changing or learning whatever it is you're desiring, you have to change up your media.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's where this toolkit idea really makes sense to me because it's like, well, okay, now you're noticing reduced pore size.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: That was your first goal.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now your goal is you know, fix the T-zone area.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's too oily, right?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: You can readjust, readjust and figure out what's, you know, what's next, what's the next goal, and how do I combat that?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I agree with you.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a very, very uh brilliant approach.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: And to give people those options and then to also keep it affordable, that's a very, very huge task.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that really leads me to my my next question is this accessibility component and how that's been for you, you know, in terms of designing that and carrying it forward.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: The products are very well priced on, you know, across the board for Codex.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very happy to see that.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love to get your insight on you know on that aspect.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think products should be under$50 because over that is unaffordable.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where we, you know, made a mistake that we're going to rectify next year with Ontu.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because again, this goes back to marketing from two years ago, or we were told, well, you know, a product with that degree of clinical efficacy really should cost more.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I was fighting with my internal marketing team, which has now changed, um, because I wanted this to be a target, because I just believed, you know, it should be somewhere around$45 to$50 max, ideally in the 20s.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's why when we came out with Shant, the products basically are in the$25 to$35 range.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's why on to next year now.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: That we have larger scale volume production, we're going to pass along all of those savings, including any packaging, improvement, savings, and volume savings onto the customer.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to actually drop our price of that next year.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to, you know, have some sales from now through the end of the year to kind of test what pricing people find affordable.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then the B-Align actually has come down from when we launched it four years ago.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the B align will also be in the kind of$25 to$40 range.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: We're reformulating some of the products for next year now with a lot more biotech content.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Again, biotech allows us to control the purity, the activity, have only a specific cell.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And in the long run, it's scalable, it's cheaper, and it's way more sustainable.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, given that we want to go carbon footprint neutral next year, I know five years into the company, it's a bit of an ambitious goal, but um that's the only way that we're gonna do it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, plus, you know, that way we have repeatability of sourcing, repeatability, you know, every with biotech, they test everything.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think affordability is incredibly important because there's no point having, you know, the magic bullet that nobody can afford.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of like gene therapy today, right?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Who can pay$300,000 for a dose?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I that's that's very, very interesting.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I like that you are, you know, you're really kind of um, you know, set in your way of saying that no, I'm not gonna make this, I'm not gonna make this over$50, I'm not gonna make this um ridiculous because that's another pet peeve of mine is that, you know, people hide behind this idea of, well, here I got science.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, now I'm gonna charge you$300, you know, and that thing, that whole aspect and that idea and that, I don't know, you know, maybe it it's it maybe it's the idealist in me.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I still think of, you know, Professor Sokk and the SOC vaccine and these Murray Curie, these were the heroes I grew up, you know, idolizing.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, science should be available to everybody.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that applies across the board, whether it's through skincare, whether it's through actual academia, you know, uh drug options or pharmaceuticals.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a very important topic.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of companies right now are monetizing on the frustration of consumers.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's very heartbreaking for me to see that.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I can't tell you, Barbara, how many people reach out to me via email and they're like, you know, I don't have$400 to spend.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's a week of groceries for me.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: I can't spend on skincare.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to tell me what is it that's gonna work, you know, from the brands you've interviewed and what's not.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I get these emails, I read these emails, I read every single one, and I'm just sitting here thinking, like, dang, you know, why are we even putting people in that position?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we shouldn't be doing that.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's unethical.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're absolutely right.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I I kind of call it the cup of coffee philosophy, right?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um, when when I was in biotech and we started, um a gram of monoclonal antibody was about$10,000.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of what we did with our equipment was we designed processes that became way more efficient.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: So by the time we actually finished, um, when I sold the company in 2017, um, we were working with the Serum Institute in India actually, where with a continuous processing system, they could produce a gram of monoclonal antibody for 10 bucks.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that was like, okay, we actually accomplished something for this industry to make various cancer therapies now affordable, you know, because when we started and we we were both in kind of animal vaccines and human vaccines, we were like, well, why the hell does the chicken vaccine cost five cents to make, but the equivalent human vaccine is like 20 bucks?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: That makes no sense.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is it really the validation?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is it all the regulatory aspects of it?
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then we realized, no, it's just basically um the cost of production because it's not automated.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the human paper trail, um, you know, if that could be fully automated, um, it could be reduced basically to the price of the chicken vaccine.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then we, when we visited CERM, we realized that's actually what they'd figured out how to do.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that's that's exactly the same thing for the cosmetics industry.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we want to go to biotech scalable ingredients, because you can mass produce those without using up land that can be used for food production and they're infinitely scalable.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: We know that from you know the vaccine industry, we know that from the um monoclonal antibody um industry.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I agree with you.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: Affordability is critical here.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, to me, it's the Starbucks.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you can afford a cup of coffee every day for 45 bucks, you know, and you have a skin condition, that's where my price limit should be for you for the entire treatment range.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that means if you need three to four products, the product needs to be somewhere between 20 and 50 bucks.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how we kind of come up with our pricing is the cup of coffee philosophy.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: I really love that.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, hats off to you for being ethical, staying ethical, you know, and upholding these principles that I think are really at the heart of true science.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't think that good science is ever done by, you know, um in any way harming anyone, you know, or manipulating any consumer or, you know, whatever you want to call it.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's the sign of a true scientist is that you're never going to see any of them, you know, over overdoing it, right?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: Or taking advantage of people.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I really, really applaud you for that.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for, you know, keeping that in mind and and really uh going forward with that strategy.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's brilliant.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I have, as you said, uh, you know, our common hero Marie Curie during the war, um, she basically drove around with radiation trucks to take x-rays on the battlefield.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: In the end, it killed her, right?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: From cancer.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: But um, she drove them around anyway, knowing what would happen to her.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, that's that's truly what a real scientist is.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: Truly, truly, truly.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree with you.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, speaking of Marie Curia, you will not believe that is the one quote I her quote is the one quote I've had on my wall throughout my entire academic career.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's and it's the one that she said, you know, um, at one point you have to realize like there that you are meant to do something.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: There's something that you need to do.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: And by all means, no matter no means, by no means or by all means necessary, sorry, I'm probably botching this, you have to find a way to do it.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that drive and that and you know, just that feeling of that's real science, you know, for everyone listening.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's what the the passion of science is, and that's what it makes you want to do is to discover and to do things that, you know, no matter what, you're gonna do it and you're gonna find options.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and I love interviewing people who understand this.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, Barb, you're you're amazing.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: I love what you're doing.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, this is this is what we need.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: The space needs this.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Codex is definitely, you know, on my list, it's it's right, it's very, very high up there, you know.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I, for everyone listening, you need to go check out the brand right now and you know, find products that resonate with you.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's the best place to start.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: They find things that resonate with you.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Read through the ingredient list, read through the descriptions, you know, um, it's it's something that you have to take into your own hands.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: You have to take your health into your own hands and understand what you need, why you need it, and who's gonna deliver it to you.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I really urge everyone listening, go check out the brand.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: Let us know your comments, feedbacks if you have questions, if you need some guidance, definitely reach out to us.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna um definitely reach out to Barb's team and we will get you answers.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I really urge everybody, you know, check them out and check out all of our art that's coming up for this episode.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: But Barb, thank you.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: This has been such an honor to host you and I would love to have you back over and over again.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when we get our diagnostics launched, Ecta, I want you to try them and then I would love to be back.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: You got it.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm I'm on board, considering part of the team.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, thank you so much.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I will be back next time for everyone listening.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 52:06
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• 52:11
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• 52:54
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• 53:06
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• 53:11
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