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Getting to Know the Ultimate Historical Bogeyman; the Mongols with Tobias Jones · The Smart Cookies podcast

• 213 00:03:38,504 --> 00:03:42,927 [zaza]: toby jones has finished his phd at Leuven 215 00:03:42,987 --> 00:03:48,155 [zaza]: university in the netherlands where he is also teaching his work focuses on the eruption 216 00:03:48,436 --> 00:03:53,464 [zaza]: of the mongols on to the larger world world scene focusing on the invasion of 217 00:03:53,524 --> 00:03:57,371 [zaza]: the persian world the topic of his research is loyalty in 218 00:03:57,390 --> 00:03:57,410 [toby_jones]: m 219 00:03:57,411 --> 00:04:02,780 [zaza]: the turcomongal world through this topic he considers the mongol invasions and their impact on 220 00:04:02,820 --> 00:04:07,757 [zaza]: the cultures around them r jones welcome to our trash 221 00:04:08,351 --> 00:04:10,015 [toby_jones]: thank you glad 222 00:04:10,064 --> 00:04:10,164 [zaza]: i'm 223 00:04:10,095 --> 00:04:10,476 [toby_jones]: to be here 224 00:04:10,544 --> 00:04:16,755 [zaza]: super super excited about this conversation i can't tell you now if we disregard the 225 00:04:16,835 --> 00:04:22,665 [zaza]: twentieth century the mongols at least in the western kind of collective con justness represented 226 00:04:22,725 --> 00:04:27,533 [zaza]: the ultimate historical book man don't they and i want us to kind of probe 227 00:04:27,773 --> 00:04:32,942 [zaza]: into that image and see if it's merited but before we go into all that 228 00:04:33,082 --> 00:04:38,258 [zaza]: we've got clear up a common misconception when i wrote to you with a list 229 00:04:38,318 --> 00:04:43,364 [zaza]: of proposed teams i'd like us to cover during this episode i of course mentioned 230 00:04:43,944 --> 00:04:49,151 [zaza]: gangiskan which apparently is not how we say his name at all so why don't 231 00:04:49,211 --> 00:04:50,192 [zaza]: we start there 232 00:04:51,462 --> 00:04:55,757 [toby_jones]: yes so in fact his name is chingishan and 233 00:04:55,813 --> 00:04:56,394 [zaza]: ching han 234 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:00,907 [toby_jones]: yes so not i'm not exactly sure what happened i think 235 00:05:01,253 --> 00:05:01,495 [zaza]: oh 236 00:05:01,307 --> 00:05:04,453 [toby_jones]: it was the french basically some french historians in 237 00:05:04,467 --> 00:05:05,753 [zaza]: it's always the french historians 238 00:05:05,474 --> 00:05:08,219 [toby_jones]: yeah in the eighteenth century or something 239 00:05:08,303 --> 00:05:08,564 [zaza]: yeah 240 00:05:08,740 --> 00:05:12,967 [toby_jones]: as then adapted into english in correctly and it just stayed that way so it's 241 00:05:13,087 --> 00:05:15,170 [toby_jones]: quite strange actually but yeah 242 00:05:15,205 --> 00:05:15,346 [zaza]: yeah 243 00:05:15,271 --> 00:05:21,321 [toby_jones]: the original in all original source languages he is chingis or sometimes in gas but 244 00:05:21,521 --> 00:05:24,026 [toby_jones]: yeah he is quite close so 245 00:05:24,534 --> 00:05:24,774 [zaza]: okay 246 00:05:24,567 --> 00:05:25,428 [toby_jones]: yeah that's correct 247 00:05:25,896 --> 00:05:28,941 [zaza]: but if we like if we open up the vikipdia page on 248 00:05:28,851 --> 00:05:28,991 [toby_jones]: yeah 249 00:05:29,322 --> 00:05:29,883 [zaza]: hinges kan 250 00:05:30,274 --> 00:05:30,415 [toby_jones]: yeah 251 00:05:31,425 --> 00:05:36,256 [zaza]: how would do we pronounce chingiskan even though it's written like gangs can or 252 00:05:36,341 --> 00:05:39,531 [toby_jones]: no no it's it's not written it should not be written that way either it 253 00:05:39,591 --> 00:05:39,792 [toby_jones]: should 254 00:05:39,784 --> 00:05:40,024 [zaza]: okay 255 00:05:39,852 --> 00:05:40,213 [toby_jones]: be written 256 00:05:40,245 --> 00:05:40,506 [zaza]: i see 257 00:05:40,414 --> 00:05:40,555 [toby_jones]: yeah 258 00:05:41,007 --> 00:05:41,067 [zaza]: so 259 00:05:41,016 --> 00:05:41,116 [toby_jones]: so 260 00:05:41,147 --> 00:05:41,248 [zaza]: it's 261 00:05:41,277 --> 00:05:41,437 [toby_jones]: yeah 262 00:05:41,308 --> 00:05:42,571 [zaza]: already spelled completely like 263 00:05:42,590 --> 00:05:42,931 [toby_jones]: incorrect 264 00:05:42,631 --> 00:05:42,812 [zaza]: wrong 265 00:05:43,031 --> 00:05:43,451 [toby_jones]: yeah yeah 266 00:05:43,634 --> 00:05:43,734 [zaza]: all 267 00:05:43,752 --> 00:05:44,213 [toby_jones]: exactly 268 00:05:43,774 --> 00:05:44,697 [zaza]: right eh 269 00:05:44,874 --> 00:05:45,014 [toby_jones]: this 270 00:05:44,957 --> 00:05:45,038 [zaza]: i'm 271 00:05:45,054 --> 00:05:45,114 [toby_jones]: is 272 00:05:45,078 --> 00:05:45,218 [zaza]: from 273 00:05:45,154 --> 00:05:46,116 [toby_jones]: the first thing i tell 274 00:05:46,060 --> 00:05:46,201 [zaza]: yeah 275 00:05:46,196 --> 00:05:49,522 [toby_jones]: my students when they still get it wrong but even at the end of the 276 00:05:49,662 --> 00:05:54,750 [toby_jones]: master i've told them four times if you write ganges in your final paper i'll 277 00:05:54,790 --> 00:05:56,011 [toby_jones]: definitely take a mark off 278 00:05:56,248 --> 00:05:56,728 [zaza]: you're out 279 00:05:57,193 --> 00:06:00,216 [toby_jones]: yeah not out but you know i'll 280 00:06:00,111 --> 00:06:00,331 [zaza]: okay 281 00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:01,858 [toby_jones]: be disappointed let's say that 282 00:06:02,363 --> 00:06:05,554 [zaza]: okay how much does it hurt when at the end of the semester people are 283 00:06:05,574 --> 00:06:05,754 [zaza]: still 284 00:06:05,601 --> 00:06:05,981 [toby_jones]: it hurts 285 00:06:05,775 --> 00:06:05,895 [zaza]: like 286 00:06:06,162 --> 00:06:06,542 [toby_jones]: it hurts 287 00:06:06,738 --> 00:06:07,420 [zaza]: okay 288 00:06:07,123 --> 00:06:11,612 [toby_jones]: yeah you've said it twenty twenty six times per per lesson and you're still getting 289 00:06:11,692 --> 00:06:13,555 [toby_jones]: it so yeah it hurts a little bit 290 00:06:14,553 --> 00:06:20,363 [zaza]: to be honest i'm from lavinia and we in slovinian we say jingiskanright 291 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,626 [toby_jones]: there you go see you guys if you didn't it's english that ruined it to 292 00:06:22,686 --> 00:06:26,432 [toby_jones]: be honest because as soon as they switched it over even in german there's a 293 00:06:26,592 --> 00:06:29,457 [toby_jones]: famous amazing pop song called jingishan 294 00:06:29,923 --> 00:06:29,963 [zaza]: i 295 00:06:29,938 --> 00:06:30,178 [toby_jones]: i don't 296 00:06:30,043 --> 00:06:30,184 [zaza]: love 297 00:06:30,218 --> 00:06:30,339 [toby_jones]: know 298 00:06:30,244 --> 00:06:30,644 [zaza]: that song 299 00:06:31,060 --> 00:06:31,520 [toby_jones]: exactly 300 00:06:31,205 --> 00:06:31,866 [zaza]: i absolutely 301 00:06:31,660 --> 00:06:31,761 [toby_jones]: so 302 00:06:31,906 --> 00:06:32,006 [zaza]: love 303 00:06:31,921 --> 00:06:32,041 [toby_jones]: they 304 00:06:32,106 --> 00:06:32,126 [zaza]: i 305 00:06:32,141 --> 00:06:32,241 [toby_jones]: got 306 00:06:32,206 --> 00:06:32,327 [zaza]: live 307 00:06:32,301 --> 00:06:32,361 [toby_jones]: it 308 00:06:32,407 --> 00:06:32,447 [zaza]: in 309 00:06:32,421 --> 00:06:32,602 [toby_jones]: right 310 00:06:32,487 --> 00:06:32,807 [zaza]: berlin 311 00:06:32,702 --> 00:06:32,862 [toby_jones]: too 312 00:06:32,988 --> 00:06:33,388 [zaza]: and i play 313 00:06:33,342 --> 00:06:33,523 [toby_jones]: yeah 314 00:06:33,448 --> 00:06:34,269 [zaza]: it all the time 315 00:06:34,224 --> 00:06:37,708 [toby_jones]: yeah they got it they got it right too so it's really only english that 316 00:06:37,788 --> 00:06:38,208 [toby_jones]: got it wrong 317 00:06:38,903 --> 00:06:39,103 [zaza]: okay 318 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:40,404 [toby_jones]: yeah 319 00:06:39,905 --> 00:06:44,757 [zaza]: well there you have it okay let's start at the beginning not at the complete 320 00:06:44,797 --> 00:06:47,403 [zaza]: beginning but maybe 321 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:47,544 [toby_jones]: yeah 322 00:06:47,744 --> 00:06:53,618 [zaza]: before jingiskan appears on the world stage in what state were the mongols before 323 00:06:53,430 --> 00:06:53,712 [toby_jones]: oh 324 00:06:53,700 --> 00:06:53,883 [zaza]: that 325 00:06:55,130 --> 00:07:01,681 [toby_jones]: well so essentially on let's say the area in the area where we we call 326 00:07:01,761 --> 00:07:07,470 [toby_jones]: the mongol step so this would include much of modern mongolia the modern in state 327 00:07:07,851 --> 00:07:15,644 [toby_jones]: but also parts of different nations like krgskgistan kase tan et cetera and you have 328 00:07:15,546 --> 00:07:15,810 [zaza]: you have 329 00:07:15,844 --> 00:07:20,392 [toby_jones]: a lot of different people groups who live on this step and most of them 330 00:07:20,913 --> 00:07:28,485 [toby_jones]: are either mongolic speakers so speakers of a mongolian type language or turkish speakers and 331 00:07:28,525 --> 00:07:30,949 [toby_jones]: this is why i regularly refer to the turk 332 00:07:31,123 --> 00:07:31,224 [zaza]: so 333 00:07:31,330 --> 00:07:38,362 [toby_jones]: monge world or the turco monguls because really that the mongul empire was made up 334 00:07:38,462 --> 00:07:45,193 [toby_jones]: largely of turks also and so the monguls were simply one people group within a 335 00:07:45,293 --> 00:07:45,594 [toby_jones]: large 336 00:07:45,603 --> 00:07:45,623 [zaza]: a 337 00:07:45,734 --> 00:07:53,046 [toby_jones]: number of people groups who populated that mongolian step so before they had had hans 338 00:07:54,048 --> 00:08:01,582 [toby_jones]: in the past but mostly quite you know more regional powers and at some stage 339 00:08:01,783 --> 00:08:08,605 [toby_jones]: they of course were more powerful and what essentially happened was that the government of 340 00:08:08,725 --> 00:08:12,792 [toby_jones]: north china the gin dynasty they basically 341 00:08:12,593 --> 00:08:12,996 [zaza]: bally 342 00:08:13,052 --> 00:08:15,837 [toby_jones]: enjoyed or enjoyed they manipulated 343 00:08:15,423 --> 00:08:15,443 [zaza]: a 344 00:08:15,917 --> 00:08:17,940 [toby_jones]: these different people groups against other 345 00:08:18,313 --> 00:08:19,174 [zaza]: ah 346 00:08:18,321 --> 00:08:20,504 [toby_jones]: to try to try and make sure that they 347 00:08:20,977 --> 00:08:21,097 [zaza]: they 348 00:08:21,145 --> 00:08:21,306 [toby_jones]: were 349 00:08:21,177 --> 00:08:21,357 [zaza]: never 350 00:08:21,366 --> 00:08:21,506 [toby_jones]: sort 351 00:08:21,418 --> 00:08:21,718 [zaza]: invade 352 00:08:21,566 --> 00:08:21,606 [toby_jones]: of 353 00:08:21,858 --> 00:08:22,139 [zaza]: china 354 00:08:22,267 --> 00:08:22,788 [toby_jones]: exactly 355 00:08:22,459 --> 00:08:23,180 [zaza]: i mean okay 356 00:08:23,009 --> 00:08:27,897 [toby_jones]: and there was always that risk and of course rating was very common rating for 357 00:08:27,977 --> 00:08:32,725 [toby_jones]: supplies for trade sort of thing and so the gin were very aware of that 358 00:08:32,825 --> 00:08:37,192 [toby_jones]: and as soon as one group became quite powerful they would then support another group 359 00:08:37,272 --> 00:08:38,615 [toby_jones]: to sort of take them down 360 00:08:39,764 --> 00:08:39,924 [zaza]: wow 361 00:08:39,776 --> 00:08:40,317 [toby_jones]: so and actually 362 00:08:40,305 --> 00:08:40,526 [zaza]: that's 363 00:08:40,558 --> 00:08:41,319 [toby_jones]: so yeah 364 00:08:41,289 --> 00:08:41,469 [zaza]: that's 365 00:08:41,580 --> 00:08:42,299 [toby_jones]: yeah 366 00:08:42,031 --> 00:08:43,938 [zaza]: that's a game of thrones diplomacy 367 00:08:43,860 --> 00:08:44,361 [toby_jones]: exactly 368 00:08:44,018 --> 00:08:44,259 [zaza]: for you 369 00:08:44,521 --> 00:08:50,631 [toby_jones]: exactly so actually the sort of power that was around before the mangles one of 370 00:08:50,871 --> 00:08:52,514 [toby_jones]: the bigger ones with the tartars 371 00:08:53,393 --> 00:08:53,595 [zaza]: oh 372 00:08:53,836 --> 00:08:58,043 [toby_jones]: and the chin at some point had supported them and then they 373 00:08:58,006 --> 00:08:58,027 [zaza]: a 374 00:08:58,124 --> 00:09:04,294 [toby_jones]: became too powerful and it was with their rise that the gins supported began to 375 00:09:04,334 --> 00:09:08,282 [toby_jones]: support the mongols instead to sort of bring them down the tatars 376 00:09:07,953 --> 00:09:08,013 [zaza]: the 377 00:09:08,322 --> 00:09:15,824 [toby_jones]: had also been responsible for the death of several of ingusis ancestors and so yeah 378 00:09:15,864 --> 00:09:21,312 [toby_jones]: there is this sort of blood feud between the two people groups um but bizarely 379 00:09:21,452 --> 00:09:27,102 [toby_jones]: because they were sort of well known before the monguls came around bizarely they when 380 00:09:27,222 --> 00:09:33,092 [toby_jones]: the mongols began taking over the world everyone called them tatars tartars which is the 381 00:09:33,152 --> 00:09:35,235 [toby_jones]: other name which is very common so 382 00:09:35,351 --> 00:09:35,453 [zaza]: so 383 00:09:35,796 --> 00:09:36,057 [toby_jones]: and that 384 00:09:36,114 --> 00:09:36,195 [zaza]: no 385 00:09:36,137 --> 00:09:40,825 [toby_jones]: was linked also in the european mindset to tartar so the hell 386 00:09:40,823 --> 00:09:44,303 [zaza]: yeah 387 00:09:41,105 --> 00:09:45,272 [toby_jones]: of the classical world so the monguls are supposed to have come from hell so 388 00:09:45,352 --> 00:09:46,654 [toby_jones]: the link was easily made 389 00:09:46,976 --> 00:09:47,176 [zaza]: well 390 00:09:47,235 --> 00:09:47,436 [toby_jones]: um 391 00:09:47,316 --> 00:09:47,797 [zaza]: bad as 392 00:09:48,057 --> 00:09:52,224 [toby_jones]: yeah so the monguls were regularly called tartars and you'll still see this i mean 393 00:09:52,284 --> 00:09:53,245 [toby_jones]: if there's still of course 394 00:09:53,025 --> 00:09:53,331 [zaza]: our 395 00:09:53,366 --> 00:09:57,391 [toby_jones]: a autonomous region of russia called tatar stan 396 00:09:57,369 --> 00:09:57,490 [zaza]: yeah 397 00:09:57,892 --> 00:10:00,475 [toby_jones]: so it's still the name is still powerful 398 00:10:00,983 --> 00:10:01,673 [zaza]: oh 399 00:10:01,556 --> 00:10:04,179 [toby_jones]: even though they you know they call themselves mongols 400 00:10:04,519 --> 00:10:07,450 [zaza]: but what there weren't one people the tatters and the mongols 401 00:10:08,420 --> 00:10:10,624 [toby_jones]: no they both spoke mongolian language 402 00:10:11,243 --> 00:10:11,423 [zaza]: okay 403 00:10:11,626 --> 00:10:17,656 [toby_jones]: but they were yeah rivals enemies up until basically chenguss conquest 404 00:10:18,563 --> 00:10:18,745 [zaza]: oh 405 00:10:18,838 --> 00:10:23,372 [toby_jones]: when he wiped out the royal family and then took in 406 00:10:23,483 --> 00:10:23,689 [zaza]: yeah 407 00:10:23,893 --> 00:10:25,098 [toby_jones]: the people that they had ruled 408 00:10:26,284 --> 00:10:28,307 [zaza]: okay so i'm sorry i'm skipping ahead a little 409 00:10:28,259 --> 00:10:28,420 [toby_jones]: that's 410 00:10:28,347 --> 00:10:28,427 [zaza]: bit 411 00:10:28,461 --> 00:10:28,642 [toby_jones]: okay 412 00:10:28,527 --> 00:10:29,609 [zaza]: this is going to be all over the place 413 00:10:29,550 --> 00:10:29,731 [toby_jones]: that's 414 00:10:29,649 --> 00:10:29,850 [zaza]: because 415 00:10:29,791 --> 00:10:30,013 [toby_jones]: fine 416 00:10:29,890 --> 00:10:30,070 [zaza]: i want 417 00:10:30,053 --> 00:10:32,550 [toby_jones]: yeah 418 00:10:30,110 --> 00:10:36,300 [zaza]: to cover so much things but so when eventually the mongols invade china they have 419 00:10:36,801 --> 00:10:39,925 [zaza]: a little bit of a re and to do that because as you've told me 420 00:10:40,005 --> 00:10:44,230 [zaza]: now the gin kept them in a state of this unity for a very long 421 00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:45,151 [zaza]: time so 422 00:10:45,210 --> 00:10:46,211 [toby_jones]: yeah and they were 423 00:10:46,124 --> 00:10:46,247 [zaza]: they 424 00:10:46,271 --> 00:10:46,492 [toby_jones]: also 425 00:10:46,288 --> 00:10:46,391 [zaza]: were 426 00:10:46,993 --> 00:10:49,236 [toby_jones]: the gin were responsible for killing 427 00:10:49,346 --> 00:10:49,367 [zaza]: i 428 00:10:50,378 --> 00:10:57,470 [toby_jones]: basically with using the tartars to kill some of the previous monglhans so 429 00:10:57,713 --> 00:10:57,834 [zaza]: oh 430 00:10:58,332 --> 00:11:04,061 [toby_jones]: one of the previous mongocans called amba guy was nailed to a wooden donkey by 431 00:11:04,141 --> 00:11:07,046 [toby_jones]: the gin for example so there was 432 00:11:06,940 --> 00:11:07,041 [zaza]: her 433 00:11:07,146 --> 00:11:08,829 [toby_jones]: a a yeah 434 00:11:08,933 --> 00:11:09,093 [zaza]: yeah 435 00:11:09,130 --> 00:11:13,537 [toby_jones]: lingering sort of resentment not just of the tartars but also their sort of backers 436 00:11:13,938 --> 00:11:19,106 [toby_jones]: the gin and so yeah there this was the sort of casus belli for the 437 00:11:19,146 --> 00:11:19,467 [toby_jones]: mongols 438 00:11:19,497 --> 00:11:19,517 [zaza]: h 439 00:11:19,527 --> 00:11:20,789 [toby_jones]: to attack the gin dynasty 440 00:11:20,792 --> 00:11:20,813 [zaza]: m 441 00:11:21,371 --> 00:11:22,697 [toby_jones]: in northern china 442 00:11:22,633 --> 00:11:24,878 [zaza]: so like kind of like an insult that lingers and 443 00:11:24,873 --> 00:11:25,114 [toby_jones]: yes 444 00:11:24,938 --> 00:11:25,359 [zaza]: stays in 445 00:11:25,335 --> 00:11:25,778 [toby_jones]: exactly 446 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:25,981 [zaza]: their collective 447 00:11:26,020 --> 00:11:26,865 [toby_jones]: yeah 448 00:11:26,061 --> 00:11:28,106 [zaza]: mind but why did they nail him to a donkey that's 449 00:11:28,050 --> 00:11:28,434 [toby_jones]: yeah 450 00:11:28,186 --> 00:11:29,348 [zaza]: so oddly specific 451 00:11:29,761 --> 00:11:34,208 [toby_jones]: yeah it was it was a type of punishment that existed at that time i 452 00:11:34,248 --> 00:11:34,409 [toby_jones]: don't 453 00:11:34,271 --> 00:11:34,393 [zaza]: whoa 454 00:11:34,469 --> 00:11:38,455 [toby_jones]: really understand it myself and i don't think we've ever seen any sort of yeah 455 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:42,462 [toby_jones]: there's there's no archaeological evidence for this wooden donkey but i guess 456 00:11:42,486 --> 00:11:42,692 [zaza]: yes 457 00:11:42,542 --> 00:11:44,406 [toby_jones]: it's sort of somewhat similar 458 00:11:44,134 --> 00:11:44,256 [zaza]: what 459 00:11:44,446 --> 00:11:47,672 [toby_jones]: to a crucifixion i would assume but yeah 460 00:11:47,753 --> 00:11:47,874 [zaza]: yeah 461 00:11:47,812 --> 00:11:50,317 [toby_jones]: it's it's not exactly clear what that really means 462 00:11:50,983 --> 00:11:53,469 [zaza]: it just it was very insulting and 463 00:11:53,431 --> 00:11:53,551 [toby_jones]: yeah 464 00:11:53,529 --> 00:11:53,689 [zaza]: very 465 00:11:53,652 --> 00:11:53,732 [toby_jones]: and 466 00:11:53,749 --> 00:11:54,110 [zaza]: demeaning 467 00:11:53,793 --> 00:11:55,965 [toby_jones]: that humiliation i guess is key you 468 00:11:55,903 --> 00:11:56,123 [zaza]: okay 469 00:11:55,985 --> 00:11:56,106 [toby_jones]: know 470 00:11:56,624 --> 00:11:57,184 [zaza]: and then how 471 00:11:57,300 --> 00:11:58,513 [toby_jones]: yeah oh 472 00:11:58,245 --> 00:12:00,227 [zaza]: do the mongols or the 473 00:12:00,180 --> 00:12:00,402 [toby_jones]: ye 474 00:12:00,287 --> 00:12:01,028 [zaza]: mongol turk 475 00:12:01,110 --> 00:12:01,471 [toby_jones]: yeah 476 00:12:01,248 --> 00:12:03,750 [zaza]: were the tribes or clans or proto 477 00:12:03,511 --> 00:12:04,080 [toby_jones]: kay 478 00:12:03,850 --> 00:12:04,911 [zaza]: states how 479 00:12:04,970 --> 00:12:05,050 [toby_jones]: so 480 00:12:04,971 --> 00:12:05,372 [zaza]: do we call 481 00:12:05,330 --> 00:12:05,350 [toby_jones]: i 482 00:12:05,432 --> 00:12:05,552 [zaza]: them 483 00:12:06,132 --> 00:12:09,317 [toby_jones]: as you as you may have noticed i stay away from those words the 484 00:12:09,383 --> 00:12:09,544 [zaza]: yeah 485 00:12:09,457 --> 00:12:09,778 [toby_jones]: tribes 486 00:12:09,664 --> 00:12:10,105 [zaza]: i noticed 487 00:12:09,938 --> 00:12:18,071 [toby_jones]: and clans and that it's actually yeah a point of hot debate still the study 488 00:12:18,352 --> 00:12:20,075 [toby_jones]: of the say nomadic people's 489 00:12:20,843 --> 00:12:21,083 [zaza]: yeah 490 00:12:20,996 --> 00:12:25,023 [toby_jones]: and this has a lot to do with issues surrounding oria and orientalism 491 00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:25,490 [zaza]: yeah 492 00:12:25,624 --> 00:12:28,108 [toby_jones]: right so if you take for example 493 00:12:28,943 --> 00:12:29,166 [zaza]: oh 494 00:12:29,831 --> 00:12:35,100 [toby_jones]: a mongol leader he'll often be called a chief for example or 495 00:12:35,574 --> 00:12:36,357 [zaza]: not like a king 496 00:12:36,743 --> 00:12:36,923 [toby_jones]: yeah 497 00:12:36,758 --> 00:12:40,291 [zaza]: or okay 498 00:12:37,804 --> 00:12:42,853 [toby_jones]: even though he may rule a population which is far greater than any european state 499 00:12:43,173 --> 00:12:43,313 [zaza]: yeah 500 00:12:43,734 --> 00:12:46,679 [toby_jones]: they are called kings also things like 501 00:12:46,769 --> 00:12:46,789 [zaza]: i 502 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,327 [toby_jones]: when we have sources written in latin about the monguls and they will use the 503 00:12:51,367 --> 00:12:57,536 [toby_jones]: word books which became duke in english and when it's translated into english when it's 504 00:12:57,576 --> 00:13:04,216 [toby_jones]: referring to a european power it's called duke and when it's referring to a mongol 505 00:13:04,417 --> 00:13:11,629 [toby_jones]: it's called chief so the translation of these terms the terms don't really exist in 506 00:13:11,729 --> 00:13:18,072 [toby_jones]: the langue is that we're talking about i mean a mongolian and other languages basically 507 00:13:18,153 --> 00:13:24,663 [toby_jones]: don't use equivalents of clan or tribe that we could easily nail down they're much 508 00:13:24,764 --> 00:13:29,031 [toby_jones]: more likely to use other terms that could be more better trend they did perhaps 509 00:13:29,171 --> 00:13:34,300 [toby_jones]: as state or people and so yeah i stay away from those terms some some 510 00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:36,303 [toby_jones]: many mongs clothes are fine with them 511 00:13:36,743 --> 00:13:36,865 [zaza]: yeah 512 00:13:36,784 --> 00:13:41,576 [toby_jones]: but i do think that uh yeah it hang is the way we think about 513 00:13:41,976 --> 00:13:43,038 [zaza]: of course because chief 514 00:13:42,963 --> 00:13:43,143 [toby_jones]: that 515 00:13:43,198 --> 00:13:47,185 [zaza]: then implies that this society is not as sophisticated as 516 00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:47,601 [toby_jones]: exactly 517 00:13:47,246 --> 00:13:47,967 [zaza]: a society that 518 00:13:47,962 --> 00:13:48,322 [toby_jones]: exactly 519 00:13:48,027 --> 00:13:48,468 [zaza]: has a 520 00:13:48,543 --> 00:13:48,603 [toby_jones]: and 521 00:13:48,588 --> 00:13:48,889 [zaza]: king 522 00:13:48,663 --> 00:13:49,905 [toby_jones]: i mean exactly 523 00:13:49,871 --> 00:13:49,971 [zaza]: or 524 00:13:49,965 --> 00:13:52,790 [toby_jones]: an the monguls were you know one of the greatest 525 00:13:52,693 --> 00:13:52,793 [zaza]: it 526 00:13:53,351 --> 00:13:58,559 [toby_jones]: empire builders ever and so to sort of use this appellation really sort of yeah 527 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,147 [toby_jones]: the values a lot of the impressive things that they have done but also 528 00:14:03,034 --> 00:14:03,114 [zaza]: but 529 00:14:03,207 --> 00:14:04,730 [toby_jones]: you know it still 530 00:14:04,773 --> 00:14:04,935 [zaza]: tell 531 00:14:04,810 --> 00:14:09,277 [toby_jones]: is important in the world today the way we think about people from let's say 532 00:14:09,397 --> 00:14:13,124 [toby_jones]: nomadic populations that we are not accustomed to and yet 533 00:14:13,163 --> 00:14:13,304 [zaza]: yes 534 00:14:13,304 --> 00:14:17,231 [toby_jones]: we you know we make these decisions about who they are based on the language 535 00:14:17,291 --> 00:14:21,878 [toby_jones]: that we use and it conveys like you said this you know this sort of 536 00:14:22,439 --> 00:14:28,069 [toby_jones]: less lesser civilization or something like that and that's really yeah that's really dangerous so 537 00:14:28,549 --> 00:14:32,396 [toby_jones]: i try and stay away from that and there are many people who who do 538 00:14:32,456 --> 00:14:33,057 [toby_jones]: that as well 539 00:14:33,045 --> 00:14:33,207 [zaza]: well 540 00:14:33,177 --> 00:14:34,259 [toby_jones]: but yeah i mean 541 00:14:34,233 --> 00:14:34,433 [zaza]: i mean 542 00:14:34,339 --> 00:14:34,620 [toby_jones]: it's also 543 00:14:34,514 --> 00:14:34,554 [zaza]: it 544 00:14:35,241 --> 00:14:38,547 [toby_jones]: it seems to be a little less powerful when you're talking about of course the 545 00:14:38,587 --> 00:14:40,932 [toby_jones]: thirteenth century so yeah 546 00:14:40,825 --> 00:14:41,006 [zaza]: that's 547 00:14:41,012 --> 00:14:41,172 [toby_jones]: that's 548 00:14:41,046 --> 00:14:41,286 [zaza]: a really 549 00:14:41,212 --> 00:14:41,533 [toby_jones]: something 550 00:14:41,326 --> 00:14:41,748 [zaza]: good point 551 00:14:41,593 --> 00:14:43,317 [toby_jones]: that could could be discussed more 552 00:14:43,512 --> 00:14:49,125 [zaza]: yeah yeah yeah excellent point so how do the mongols get united 553 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:49,001 [toby_jones]: oh 554 00:14:49,365 --> 00:14:52,189 [zaza]: from the state of waring of war and of 555 00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:52,280 [toby_jones]: m 556 00:14:52,269 --> 00:14:53,710 [zaza]: fighting each other that's being 557 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:54,630 [toby_jones]: yeah 558 00:14:53,770 --> 00:14:54,872 [zaza]: encouraged by the gin 559 00:14:55,590 --> 00:14:55,970 [toby_jones]: yeah so 560 00:14:56,193 --> 00:14:56,294 [zaza]: oh 561 00:14:56,752 --> 00:15:01,339 [toby_jones]: that's many different sort of yeah aspects 562 00:15:01,188 --> 00:15:01,637 [zaza]: aspects 563 00:15:02,060 --> 00:15:07,930 [toby_jones]: of course chinskan himself the sort of great unifier if we're talking about so called 564 00:15:08,030 --> 00:15:12,778 [toby_jones]: great man history so this idea that one that one man or one woman could 565 00:15:12,838 --> 00:15:17,887 [toby_jones]: sort of unite the nation and basically decide it's very 566 00:15:17,904 --> 00:15:18,065 [zaza]: very 567 00:15:17,987 --> 00:15:23,779 [toby_jones]: difficult to ignore that with chin it's because he does you know take what are 568 00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:27,328 [toby_jones]: very many different people groups who seem to be largely at war 569 00:15:27,463 --> 00:15:27,564 [zaza]: or 570 00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:32,547 [toby_jones]: and unite them but he has of course he has help so there is 571 00:15:32,495 --> 00:15:32,575 [zaza]: the 572 00:15:32,627 --> 00:15:37,435 [toby_jones]: another dynasty to the south of the monguls called the cat dynasty and these were 573 00:15:37,715 --> 00:15:37,735 [zaza]: a 574 00:15:38,116 --> 00:15:42,443 [toby_jones]: a turkish speaking people and they were tremely powerful and their 575 00:15:42,478 --> 00:15:42,558 [zaza]: the 576 00:15:42,543 --> 00:15:49,154 [toby_jones]: ruler who was given chinese title wang which became omuhomhan 577 00:15:47,993 --> 00:15:50,089 [zaza]: oh yeah 578 00:15:50,276 --> 00:15:50,697 [toby_jones]: he was 579 00:15:50,753 --> 00:15:50,893 [zaza]: was 580 00:15:50,877 --> 00:15:56,306 [toby_jones]: extremely yeah sort of the biggest power on the step at that time and he 581 00:15:56,407 --> 00:16:02,857 [toby_jones]: had made a blood brotherhood with chingisis father chingis by the way chingusis his title 582 00:16:03,238 --> 00:16:10,770 [toby_jones]: his actual name was temagen so as before he got the title shines temagen basically 583 00:16:10,851 --> 00:16:16,520 [toby_jones]: went to his once his father was killed again by the tartars who poisoned his 584 00:16:16,580 --> 00:16:22,012 [toby_jones]: father when tim and june was only eight years old or so he went to 585 00:16:22,172 --> 00:16:27,661 [toby_jones]: his his his father's blood brother for support and it was this on can who 586 00:16:27,801 --> 00:16:29,464 [toby_jones]: helped him to sort of grow 587 00:16:29,623 --> 00:16:29,763 [zaza]: oh 588 00:16:29,665 --> 00:16:35,196 [toby_jones]: to it to a much more powerful ruler and then also the gin began to 589 00:16:35,257 --> 00:16:38,225 [toby_jones]: help him as well against the tartars 590 00:16:38,883 --> 00:16:39,084 [zaza]: because 591 00:16:38,926 --> 00:16:39,007 [toby_jones]: and 592 00:16:39,125 --> 00:16:39,205 [zaza]: the 593 00:16:39,127 --> 00:16:39,307 [toby_jones]: then 594 00:16:39,245 --> 00:16:40,414 [zaza]: tatars grew too strong 595 00:16:40,730 --> 00:16:43,735 [toby_jones]: exactly and so there was this unity between the curate 596 00:16:43,805 --> 00:16:43,926 [zaza]: it 597 00:16:44,215 --> 00:16:44,857 [toby_jones]: and the mongols 598 00:16:44,553 --> 00:16:44,998 [zaza]: the mongol 599 00:16:45,117 --> 00:16:46,780 [toby_jones]: against the tatars so then 600 00:16:46,854 --> 00:16:46,936 [zaza]: the 601 00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:53,150 [toby_jones]: they sort of destroy the tatars to feed them and then they sort of two 602 00:16:53,311 --> 00:16:53,551 [toby_jones]: bigger 603 00:16:53,565 --> 00:16:53,585 [zaza]: i 604 00:16:53,651 --> 00:16:57,518 [toby_jones]: power groups on the step become the monguls and the keate at that time 605 00:16:57,344 --> 00:16:57,485 [zaza]: that 606 00:16:57,698 --> 00:16:58,599 [toby_jones]: allied but of course 607 00:16:58,616 --> 00:16:58,838 [zaza]: course 608 00:16:59,140 --> 00:17:04,609 [toby_jones]: chines finds a way to to to turn this into a rivalry and then yeah 609 00:17:04,970 --> 00:17:10,960 [toby_jones]: defeats the on can and then takes in the sort of create step state apparatus 610 00:17:11,140 --> 00:17:12,422 [toby_jones]: into his own and that's 611 00:17:12,414 --> 00:17:12,595 [zaza]: that's 612 00:17:12,463 --> 00:17:17,351 [toby_jones]: when you really see the beginnings of the mongol state emerging so this is when 613 00:17:17,371 --> 00:17:18,573 [toby_jones]: they pick up for example 614 00:17:19,013 --> 00:17:19,733 [zaza]: oh 615 00:17:20,195 --> 00:17:23,401 [toby_jones]: writing at that stage and things like that so 616 00:17:23,495 --> 00:17:23,597 [zaza]: so 617 00:17:23,922 --> 00:17:24,342 [toby_jones]: yeah at that 618 00:17:24,283 --> 00:17:24,343 [zaza]: at 619 00:17:24,442 --> 00:17:30,653 [toby_jones]: moment then they become sort of the ultimate power on the step and they've managed 620 00:17:30,733 --> 00:17:39,568 [toby_jones]: to subdue either through marriage or through conquest most of the step people's mongolian 621 00:17:39,454 --> 00:17:39,475 [zaza]: o 622 00:17:39,628 --> 00:17:41,872 [toby_jones]: step peoples so the mongols 623 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:41,717 [zaza]: the 624 00:17:41,912 --> 00:17:47,261 [toby_jones]: didn't just conquer they also used marriage as a way of getting other people groups 625 00:17:47,321 --> 00:17:53,030 [toby_jones]: to join them and these were powerful groups like the congerats or the ats and 626 00:17:53,070 --> 00:18:00,968 [toby_jones]: they their support through these marriage alliances was absolutely vital in time gen becoming chigiscan 627 00:18:02,754 --> 00:18:03,776 [zaza]: and what were some of the 628 00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:05,130 [toby_jones]: oh 629 00:18:03,816 --> 00:18:05,939 [zaza]: reasons that jingiskan was 630 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:06,252 [toby_jones]: my 631 00:18:05,999 --> 00:18:07,722 [zaza]: such a successful unifier 632 00:18:09,341 --> 00:18:14,109 [toby_jones]: yeah the reasons given in the sources are regularly things so this is something that 633 00:18:14,189 --> 00:18:17,735 [toby_jones]: i deal with the idea of loyalty and right loyalty is a sort of two 634 00:18:17,835 --> 00:18:23,084 [toby_jones]: way thing that you don't earn loyalty by being a terrible ruler you earned loyalty 635 00:18:23,224 --> 00:18:25,108 [toby_jones]: by being generous by 636 00:18:25,598 --> 00:18:25,839 [zaza]: taking 637 00:18:25,809 --> 00:18:25,869 [toby_jones]: you 638 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:26,020 [zaza]: care 639 00:18:25,929 --> 00:18:26,069 [toby_jones]: know 640 00:18:26,081 --> 00:18:26,584 [zaza]: of your people 641 00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:32,620 [toby_jones]: exactly so he was noted as being extremely generous to his followers to ving them 642 00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:37,929 [toby_jones]: a much larger share of the booty that they captured in war than their previous 643 00:18:38,350 --> 00:18:40,293 [toby_jones]: rulers had done so and so this 644 00:18:40,203 --> 00:18:40,465 [zaza]: so this 645 00:18:40,393 --> 00:18:44,520 [toby_jones]: was one thing that seems to be regularly noted of course we can't this count 646 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,648 [toby_jones]: the fact that the sources are now coming from the the mongol empire so they're 647 00:18:49,709 --> 00:18:53,715 [toby_jones]: sort of it's in their interest to show him as this great ruler luck of 648 00:18:53,775 --> 00:18:59,667 [toby_jones]: course is key he seems to be extremely he many many times and even when 649 00:18:59,727 --> 00:19:02,353 [toby_jones]: he's been defeated and has very few followers 650 00:19:02,204 --> 00:19:02,509 [zaza]: lower 651 00:19:02,453 --> 00:19:06,391 [toby_jones]: he manages to bounce back and also 652 00:19:06,553 --> 00:19:06,633 [zaza]: so 653 00:19:06,732 --> 00:19:15,526 [toby_jones]: he basically one of important things that about the army was the restructuring of the 654 00:19:15,646 --> 00:19:23,179 [toby_jones]: army so much like other previous step empires which had existed they used a decimal 655 00:19:23,439 --> 00:19:29,269 [toby_jones]: organization for the army so you have units of ten one hundred thousand ten thousand 656 00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:29,930 [toby_jones]: and so 657 00:19:30,073 --> 00:19:30,153 [zaza]: so 658 00:19:30,271 --> 00:19:34,117 [toby_jones]: you are then sort of tied into your smaller units so 659 00:19:34,263 --> 00:19:34,343 [zaza]: so 660 00:19:34,919 --> 00:19:40,508 [toby_jones]: punishment for example if any number any one of the unit of ten fled the 661 00:19:40,548 --> 00:19:46,157 [toby_jones]: battle field ten would be punished so there's this sort of group unity that was 662 00:19:46,113 --> 00:19:46,253 [zaza]: that 663 00:19:46,237 --> 00:19:51,947 [toby_jones]: provided by this and at what time did as well was to move 664 00:19:51,953 --> 00:19:52,201 [zaza]: yeah 665 00:19:52,548 --> 00:19:58,017 [toby_jones]: people who had fought against him he didn't keep them in their same the same 666 00:19:58,177 --> 00:20:02,484 [toby_jones]: sort of unit so he spread them out so he sort of breaks down somewhat 667 00:20:02,625 --> 00:20:10,298 [toby_jones]: the ah the maybe co ural affiliation by spreading them out into different units those 668 00:20:10,598 --> 00:20:13,062 [toby_jones]: who joined him voluntarily they were 669 00:20:13,041 --> 00:20:13,163 [zaza]: they 670 00:20:13,102 --> 00:20:13,343 [toby_jones]: allowed 671 00:20:13,203 --> 00:20:13,305 [zaza]: were 672 00:20:13,363 --> 00:20:19,012 [toby_jones]: to keep their sort of cultural affiliation so you had a set all units of 673 00:20:19,152 --> 00:20:19,192 [toby_jones]: o 674 00:20:19,305 --> 00:20:19,469 [zaza]: boy 675 00:20:19,313 --> 00:20:24,361 [toby_jones]: rats for example they were all together because they had joined tmogen willingly so also 676 00:20:24,353 --> 00:20:24,574 [zaza]: also 677 00:20:24,441 --> 00:20:25,042 [toby_jones]: the ability 678 00:20:24,675 --> 00:20:24,775 [zaza]: the 679 00:20:25,142 --> 00:20:25,543 [toby_jones]: to show 680 00:20:25,579 --> 00:20:25,780 [zaza]: show 681 00:20:26,585 --> 00:20:31,393 [toby_jones]: that if you join me voluntarily willing without making me have to fight for it 682 00:20:31,773 --> 00:20:33,897 [toby_jones]: you'll get great reward and 683 00:20:33,925 --> 00:20:34,146 [zaza]: okay 684 00:20:33,977 --> 00:20:38,765 [toby_jones]: you'll be at the top of the sort of the gravy train when things start 685 00:20:38,905 --> 00:20:39,246 [toby_jones]: flowing 686 00:20:39,113 --> 00:20:39,354 [zaza]: yeah 687 00:20:39,326 --> 00:20:43,833 [toby_jones]: towards us and when the if you if you fight back 688 00:20:43,724 --> 00:20:43,824 [zaza]: it 689 00:20:43,914 --> 00:20:48,501 [toby_jones]: against us we will absolutely not show you any mercy and this 690 00:20:48,583 --> 00:20:48,703 [zaza]: this 691 00:20:48,601 --> 00:20:51,947 [toby_jones]: was a policy that was held not just by imogen but by all of his 692 00:20:52,007 --> 00:20:58,538 [toby_jones]: descendants so this is very common psychological warfare that they used which was basically if 693 00:20:58,618 --> 00:21:04,227 [toby_jones]: you fight back we will annihilate you or annihilate your royal family that sort of 694 00:21:04,267 --> 00:21:05,049 [toby_jones]: thing and 695 00:21:04,973 --> 00:21:05,155 [zaza]: oh 696 00:21:05,109 --> 00:21:07,331 [toby_jones]: then it's supposed to encourage the next 697 00:21:08,303 --> 00:21:08,546 [zaza]: oh 698 00:21:08,612 --> 00:21:10,774 [toby_jones]: let's say the next people group or the next city to 699 00:21:11,603 --> 00:21:12,383 [zaza]: oh 700 00:21:12,676 --> 00:21:15,018 [toby_jones]: go easily and to submit 701 00:21:17,876 --> 00:21:24,535 [zaza]: um i wanted to ask about was there are so many things that you said 702 00:21:24,595 --> 00:21:26,839 [zaza]: that i want to be like i want to ask about this i want to 703 00:21:26,938 --> 00:21:27,618 [toby_jones]: yeah go for it 704 00:21:27,661 --> 00:21:34,812 [zaza]: want about this um but yeah what about myritocracy in his r b was it 705 00:21:35,093 --> 00:21:41,219 [zaza]: true that he kind of leaned more into meritocracy more than like noble birth for 706 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:44,364 [zaza]: example when it came to commanders in his army or like 707 00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:44,625 [toby_jones]: oh 708 00:21:44,424 --> 00:21:47,996 [zaza]: lieutenants and all that stuff we don't know much about 709 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:48,221 [toby_jones]: well 710 00:21:48,057 --> 00:21:48,177 [zaza]: that 711 00:21:48,522 --> 00:21:56,703 [toby_jones]: so yeah but the thing is that there is definitely yeah that's again hot topic 712 00:21:56,864 --> 00:21:57,545 [toby_jones]: also because 713 00:21:57,758 --> 00:21:57,939 [zaza]: okay 714 00:21:58,326 --> 00:22:02,954 [toby_jones]: he does for example mostly with the people the people groups who submit to him 715 00:22:03,054 --> 00:22:04,316 [toby_jones]: willingly their 716 00:22:04,343 --> 00:22:04,563 [zaza]: year 717 00:22:05,117 --> 00:22:07,622 [toby_jones]: elites are kept total in charge so 718 00:22:07,793 --> 00:22:07,853 [zaza]: so 719 00:22:08,303 --> 00:22:12,149 [toby_jones]: they're not they're not kicked out of their positions basically there is 720 00:22:12,058 --> 00:22:12,220 [zaza]: there 721 00:22:12,209 --> 00:22:12,890 [toby_jones]: a hierarchy 722 00:22:12,321 --> 00:22:12,402 [zaza]: is 723 00:22:13,351 --> 00:22:18,720 [toby_jones]: if you follow that then it's all fine but there was a maritocracy when came 724 00:22:18,860 --> 00:22:25,311 [toby_jones]: to people let's say perhaps of lower birth who did particular service towards him he 725 00:22:25,391 --> 00:22:27,194 [toby_jones]: would grant them a sort of higher 726 00:22:27,225 --> 00:22:27,469 [zaza]: higher 727 00:22:27,294 --> 00:22:29,318 [toby_jones]: position but yeah 728 00:22:29,423 --> 00:22:29,564 [zaza]: yeah 729 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:35,368 [toby_jones]: it's it's a little bit difficult sometimes because of the language that is used to 730 00:22:35,568 --> 00:22:39,835 [toby_jones]: know exactly if that person was you know really low 731 00:22:39,901 --> 00:22:40,083 [zaza]: low 732 00:22:41,358 --> 00:22:43,803 [toby_jones]: in position or not um and so 733 00:22:43,923 --> 00:22:44,003 [zaza]: so 734 00:22:44,003 --> 00:22:49,355 [toby_jones]: yes absolutely if you did great service to china you would be promoted and then 735 00:22:49,536 --> 00:22:55,346 [toby_jones]: there was also certain let's say positions that were given to you which were not 736 00:22:55,426 --> 00:22:58,251 [toby_jones]: let to make you a noble but to make you 737 00:22:58,763 --> 00:22:59,024 [zaza]: oh 738 00:22:59,152 --> 00:23:03,920 [toby_jones]: sort of stand out so there was a position called the tar han position and 739 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:11,132 [toby_jones]: this was a sort of hereditary uh yeah award for loyalty and this would allow 740 00:23:11,233 --> 00:23:14,117 [toby_jones]: you to commit up to nine offenses against 741 00:23:14,096 --> 00:23:14,261 [zaza]: yes 742 00:23:14,418 --> 00:23:14,798 [toby_jones]: the han 743 00:23:14,843 --> 00:23:15,044 [zaza]: oh 744 00:23:15,019 --> 00:23:16,822 [toby_jones]: without punished um 745 00:23:16,823 --> 00:23:17,063 [zaza]: yeah 746 00:23:17,463 --> 00:23:23,333 [toby_jones]: but then also things like tax exemption and that also that carried on to your 747 00:23:23,373 --> 00:23:27,359 [toby_jones]: descendants so you you'll see in later sort of generations 748 00:23:27,295 --> 00:23:27,396 [zaza]: it 749 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:33,642 [toby_jones]: these people will still have this title tar han and that really shows 750 00:23:33,685 --> 00:23:33,787 [zaza]: oh 751 00:23:33,702 --> 00:23:38,590 [toby_jones]: that they you know how honored they were by this sort of this this prize 752 00:23:38,690 --> 00:23:40,293 [toby_jones]: essentially and so yeah 753 00:23:40,243 --> 00:23:40,304 [zaza]: so 754 00:23:40,393 --> 00:23:40,513 [toby_jones]: there 755 00:23:40,404 --> 00:23:40,545 [zaza]: yeah 756 00:23:40,714 --> 00:23:47,094 [toby_jones]: there was yeah there was still a very import a hierarchy however and things like 757 00:23:49,091 --> 00:23:55,501 [toby_jones]: one of timagen's young friends was called jamuka and they had sworn this 758 00:23:55,425 --> 00:23:55,506 [zaza]: one 759 00:23:55,621 --> 00:23:58,586 [toby_jones]: blood brotherhood similar to the way his father had done 760 00:23:59,423 --> 00:23:59,703 [zaza]: yeah 761 00:23:59,828 --> 00:24:01,938 [toby_jones]: and then they became rivals 762 00:24:02,405 --> 00:24:02,566 [zaza]: yeah 763 00:24:02,783 --> 00:24:02,904 [toby_jones]: and 764 00:24:02,946 --> 00:24:03,186 [zaza]: i think 765 00:24:03,206 --> 00:24:03,869 [toby_jones]: what 766 00:24:03,246 --> 00:24:04,047 [zaza]: i saw the movie 767 00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:05,501 [toby_jones]: yes yes so 768 00:24:05,608 --> 00:24:06,149 [zaza]: yeah yeah yeah 769 00:24:06,302 --> 00:24:10,730 [toby_jones]: they became enemies and later jamuca of course fights against imogen 770 00:24:11,033 --> 00:24:11,173 [zaza]: yeah 771 00:24:11,932 --> 00:24:18,465 [toby_jones]: and he repeatedly they clash anyway and then at some point some of jamuka's men 772 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:20,800 [toby_jones]: betray 773 00:24:20,863 --> 00:24:22,913 [zaza]: try 774 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,045 [toby_jones]: him and bring him to time gen h 775 00:24:24,123 --> 00:24:24,283 [zaza]: ah 776 00:24:24,346 --> 00:24:31,959 [toby_jones]: and he immediately has them all killed for betraying their rightful lord so this idea 777 00:24:31,755 --> 00:24:31,995 [zaza]: nice 778 00:24:32,580 --> 00:24:38,830 [toby_jones]: doesn't want to break down hierarchies he doesn't want to sort of there's no communist 779 00:24:39,010 --> 00:24:43,237 [toby_jones]: or you know he's not trying to make everyone equal he's certainly trying to keep 780 00:24:43,298 --> 00:24:49,268 [toby_jones]: those hierarchies him at the top because if those hierarchies break down then that also 781 00:24:49,428 --> 00:24:49,929 [toby_jones]: undermines 782 00:24:49,443 --> 00:24:49,503 [zaza]: so 783 00:24:50,029 --> 00:24:52,313 [toby_jones]: the sort of his own rule so yeah there 784 00:24:52,213 --> 00:24:52,334 [zaza]: yeah 785 00:24:52,493 --> 00:24:56,359 [toby_jones]: is a certain social mobility that is possible but 786 00:24:56,538 --> 00:24:56,619 [zaza]: but 787 00:24:56,582 --> 00:24:56,929 [toby_jones]: limited 788 00:24:57,953 --> 00:24:59,655 [zaza]: and then what happened to his best friend 789 00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:01,662 [toby_jones]: oh he kills him obviously yeah 790 00:25:01,837 --> 00:25:03,479 [zaza]: okay there we go 791 00:25:03,946 --> 00:25:09,936 [toby_jones]: now so that the trope the story that appears in the anonymous secret history of 792 00:25:09,976 --> 00:25:15,626 [toby_jones]: the monguls which is the only mongolian language source sort of chronicle we have for 793 00:25:15,706 --> 00:25:19,652 [toby_jones]: that period is that jama acknowledges 794 00:25:19,454 --> 00:25:19,736 [zaza]: knowed 795 00:25:19,732 --> 00:25:24,340 [toby_jones]: his own guilt and begs for timagen to take his life because he has failed 796 00:25:24,941 --> 00:25:26,824 [toby_jones]: as his his blood brother 797 00:25:27,243 --> 00:25:27,483 [zaza]: okay 798 00:25:27,445 --> 00:25:27,525 [toby_jones]: so 799 00:25:27,623 --> 00:25:27,683 [zaza]: so 800 00:25:27,666 --> 00:25:27,786 [toby_jones]: yeah 801 00:25:27,764 --> 00:25:27,864 [zaza]: it's 802 00:25:27,866 --> 00:25:28,066 [toby_jones]: there's 803 00:25:27,924 --> 00:25:28,064 [zaza]: like 804 00:25:28,126 --> 00:25:28,567 [toby_jones]: there's all 805 00:25:28,645 --> 00:25:28,705 [zaza]: an 806 00:25:28,808 --> 00:25:28,868 [toby_jones]: you 807 00:25:28,825 --> 00:25:29,146 [zaza]: honor 808 00:25:28,908 --> 00:25:29,008 [toby_jones]: know 809 00:25:29,266 --> 00:25:30,749 [zaza]: kind of honorable 810 00:25:30,210 --> 00:25:31,292 [toby_jones]: yeah yeah 811 00:25:31,751 --> 00:25:31,871 [zaza]: way 812 00:25:31,873 --> 00:25:31,893 [toby_jones]: i 813 00:25:31,991 --> 00:25:32,071 [zaza]: to 814 00:25:31,993 --> 00:25:32,193 [toby_jones]: doubt 815 00:25:32,131 --> 00:25:32,211 [zaza]: go 816 00:25:32,253 --> 00:25:33,395 [toby_jones]: it happened that way but that's 817 00:25:33,514 --> 00:25:33,674 [zaza]: yeah 818 00:25:33,736 --> 00:25:34,437 [toby_jones]: that's the story 819 00:25:34,255 --> 00:25:34,455 [zaza]: okay 820 00:25:34,497 --> 00:25:34,757 [toby_jones]: anyway 821 00:25:34,656 --> 00:25:35,497 [zaza]: it's a nice story though 822 00:25:35,659 --> 00:25:36,202 [toby_jones]: yeah m 823 00:25:36,339 --> 00:25:36,719 [zaza]: what about 824 00:25:36,729 --> 00:25:36,749 [toby_jones]: m 825 00:25:36,779 --> 00:25:44,301 [zaza]: that story that another group kidnapped chingess wife 826 00:25:44,804 --> 00:25:45,087 [toby_jones]: indeed 827 00:25:44,902 --> 00:25:45,724 [zaza]: right and 828 00:25:45,731 --> 00:25:45,933 [toby_jones]: yes 829 00:25:45,764 --> 00:25:47,446 [zaza]: then she was in captivity for a while 830 00:25:47,340 --> 00:25:48,390 [toby_jones]: oh 831 00:25:47,907 --> 00:25:48,969 [zaza]: and then she had a son 832 00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:49,691 [toby_jones]: yes 833 00:25:49,931 --> 00:25:55,797 [zaza]: and and then there was some disputes about leadership because people alleged that it wasn't 834 00:25:55,857 --> 00:25:57,218 [zaza]: really changes son but 835 00:25:57,553 --> 00:25:57,757 [toby_jones]: yes 836 00:25:57,679 --> 00:26:01,604 [zaza]: that i guess happened pretty early when he wasn't chingiscan yet right 837 00:26:01,762 --> 00:26:08,934 [toby_jones]: yeah so yeah he did he got married very early so yeah his father apparently 838 00:26:09,054 --> 00:26:14,122 [toby_jones]: found him his wife so his father died when was either eight or thirteen according 839 00:26:14,182 --> 00:26:15,002 [toby_jones]: to the sources so 840 00:26:15,172 --> 00:26:15,274 [zaza]: so 841 00:26:15,523 --> 00:26:21,069 [toby_jones]: he would have gotten married quite young and so his eldest son was called jose 842 00:26:22,670 --> 00:26:23,792 [toby_jones]: and his 843 00:26:23,890 --> 00:26:24,091 [zaza]: yes 844 00:26:24,433 --> 00:26:31,325 [toby_jones]: his his descendants eventually created the jochidulus or the golden hoard which ruled over much 845 00:26:31,425 --> 00:26:39,659 [toby_jones]: of what is modern day russia um so joke yes his mother was called berta 846 00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:41,201 [toby_jones]: this was jenguss 847 00:26:40,845 --> 00:26:40,886 [zaza]: as 848 00:26:41,762 --> 00:26:46,992 [toby_jones]: very loyal wife by whom he had his four very powerful sons and she was 849 00:26:47,072 --> 00:26:51,071 [toby_jones]: captured by another group called the market and this was 850 00:26:51,189 --> 00:26:51,209 [zaza]: a 851 00:26:51,532 --> 00:26:56,340 [toby_jones]: in the sources there are different sort of explanations as to at what point this 852 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:57,802 [toby_jones]: happened because that's of course key 853 00:26:58,227 --> 00:26:58,567 [zaza]: of course 854 00:26:59,084 --> 00:27:02,991 [toby_jones]: and yeah then he but the story 855 00:27:02,803 --> 00:27:02,883 [zaza]: the 856 00:27:03,151 --> 00:27:09,442 [toby_jones]: is that that that she gave birth after being captured by them and then when 857 00:27:09,742 --> 00:27:16,513 [toby_jones]: they defeated america and took her back joke was there and so he was welcomed 858 00:27:16,403 --> 00:27:16,705 [zaza]: we 859 00:27:16,654 --> 00:27:19,959 [toby_jones]: with open arms that's one thing that's never really been in question that singes 860 00:27:20,055 --> 00:27:20,221 [zaza]: yes 861 00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:20,861 [toby_jones]: no matter 862 00:27:20,873 --> 00:27:21,115 [zaza]: matter 863 00:27:20,961 --> 00:27:24,286 [toby_jones]: what the situation may have been inis welcome 864 00:27:24,233 --> 00:27:24,293 [zaza]: we 865 00:27:24,346 --> 00:27:24,947 [toby_jones]: to jociwith 866 00:27:25,216 --> 00:27:26,460 [zaza]: accepted him as his own son 867 00:27:26,350 --> 00:27:26,750 [toby_jones]: he gave 868 00:27:26,681 --> 00:27:27,122 [zaza]: officially 869 00:27:26,811 --> 00:27:28,393 [toby_jones]: him all sorts of power 870 00:27:28,969 --> 00:27:29,169 [zaza]: okay 871 00:27:29,034 --> 00:27:32,901 [toby_jones]: yeah gave him pride of place in almost every way however 872 00:27:32,964 --> 00:27:33,125 [zaza]: ever 873 00:27:33,001 --> 00:27:39,481 [toby_jones]: the fact that he didn't become the successor well he died before jingisthat so didn't 874 00:27:39,521 --> 00:27:42,987 [toby_jones]: help but the fact that he wasn't yeah 875 00:27:43,109 --> 00:27:43,270 [zaza]: yeah 876 00:27:43,508 --> 00:27:44,790 [toby_jones]: that he may not 877 00:27:44,702 --> 00:27:44,723 [zaza]: m 878 00:27:44,850 --> 00:27:44,970 [toby_jones]: have 879 00:27:44,924 --> 00:27:45,005 [zaza]: oh 880 00:27:45,030 --> 00:27:49,417 [toby_jones]: been a potential successor seen by the mongol leads 881 00:27:49,204 --> 00:27:49,224 [zaza]: a 882 00:27:50,038 --> 00:27:52,114 [toby_jones]: may have been beaus of this bastardy 883 00:27:53,113 --> 00:27:53,293 [zaza]: okay 884 00:27:53,140 --> 00:27:58,329 [toby_jones]: and one of the stories is that when the thing is called his 885 00:27:58,238 --> 00:27:58,339 [zaza]: all 886 00:27:58,389 --> 00:28:05,160 [toby_jones]: sons together to discuss who would be the successor his second son chagatam claimed 887 00:28:05,205 --> 00:28:05,814 [zaza]: at 888 00:28:05,381 --> 00:28:10,950 [toby_jones]: that why why should we be ruled by this bastard of the market and so 889 00:28:11,330 --> 00:28:14,977 [toby_jones]: there's he of course as the eldest legitimate 890 00:28:14,743 --> 00:28:15,166 [zaza]: let 891 00:28:15,037 --> 00:28:19,524 [toby_jones]: son could have maybe assume that he would rule so the fact that he sort 892 00:28:19,564 --> 00:28:24,172 [toby_jones]: of called this out and they seem to have had quite a rivalry the two 893 00:28:24,232 --> 00:28:28,078 [toby_jones]: of them and in the end they sort of went for a third 894 00:28:28,210 --> 00:28:28,230 [zaza]: i 895 00:28:28,239 --> 00:28:34,128 [toby_jones]: option in order to not displease the other two which was change is third son 896 00:28:34,268 --> 00:28:34,549 [toby_jones]: okada 897 00:28:37,433 --> 00:28:40,985 [zaza]: and how did you said that couch died before hinges 898 00:28:40,981 --> 00:28:41,142 [toby_jones]: yes 899 00:28:41,346 --> 00:28:41,486 [zaza]: was 900 00:28:41,384 --> 00:28:41,525 [toby_jones]: yeh 901 00:28:41,527 --> 00:28:42,730 [zaza]: there any foul play there 902 00:28:43,621 --> 00:28:48,549 [toby_jones]: well again it's he seems to have been ill there was 903 00:28:48,673 --> 00:28:48,693 [zaza]: a 904 00:28:48,689 --> 00:28:50,232 [toby_jones]: some there are 905 00:28:50,166 --> 00:28:50,307 [zaza]: there 906 00:28:50,292 --> 00:28:53,017 [toby_jones]: some sources that claim that he was poisoned but 907 00:28:53,074 --> 00:28:53,237 [zaza]: but 908 00:28:53,337 --> 00:28:59,608 [toby_jones]: that seems to happen with every ingle mong mongol prince or there's always they also 909 00:29:00,068 --> 00:29:03,935 [toby_jones]: they didn't seem to have led the most healthy life styles and so the fact 910 00:29:03,975 --> 00:29:09,905 [toby_jones]: that they died at mostly young ages not well that's surprising they drank hyeah to 911 00:29:09,985 --> 00:29:15,214 [toby_jones]: access on a regular basis and so yeah there many of them basically seem to 912 00:29:15,274 --> 00:29:17,197 [toby_jones]: have died of alcoholism 913 00:29:16,793 --> 00:29:16,913 [zaza]: oh 914 00:29:17,297 --> 00:29:18,038 [toby_jones]: alcohol poisoning 915 00:29:18,939 --> 00:29:19,099 [zaza]: wow 916 00:29:18,942 --> 00:29:19,002 [toby_jones]: and 917 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,767 [zaza]: i didn't know there were such party animals to be 918 00:29:21,780 --> 00:29:22,081 [toby_jones]: indeed 919 00:29:21,807 --> 00:29:22,047 [zaza]: honest 920 00:29:22,261 --> 00:29:22,401 [toby_jones]: yeah 921 00:29:22,368 --> 00:29:22,509 [zaza]: what 922 00:29:22,501 --> 00:29:22,581 [toby_jones]: so 923 00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:22,669 [zaza]: were 924 00:29:22,641 --> 00:29:22,682 [toby_jones]: i 925 00:29:22,709 --> 00:29:22,789 [zaza]: they 926 00:29:22,722 --> 00:29:22,862 [toby_jones]: mean 927 00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:23,231 [zaza]: drinking 928 00:29:24,164 --> 00:29:24,264 [toby_jones]: so 929 00:29:24,294 --> 00:29:24,436 [zaza]: as 930 00:29:24,525 --> 00:29:24,825 [toby_jones]: that 931 00:29:24,944 --> 00:29:24,964 [zaza]: a 932 00:29:25,106 --> 00:29:26,328 [toby_jones]: is yeah something 933 00:29:26,065 --> 00:29:26,206 [zaza]: yes 934 00:29:26,468 --> 00:29:31,757 [toby_jones]: i don't think i could ever stomach which is called comes and that is fermented 935 00:29:31,857 --> 00:29:33,905 [toby_jones]: mare's milk and 936 00:29:33,863 --> 00:29:34,303 [zaza]: fermented 937 00:29:34,068 --> 00:29:34,189 [toby_jones]: so 938 00:29:34,423 --> 00:29:35,084 [zaza]: mare's milk 939 00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:40,097 [toby_jones]: yeah so so yeah horse horse milk that's been fermented and 940 00:29:40,109 --> 00:29:43,412 [zaza]: yeah 941 00:29:40,178 --> 00:29:43,944 [toby_jones]: so essentially i mean i don't know if you've ever tried you know turkish drink 942 00:29:44,064 --> 00:29:45,026 [toby_jones]: like iron or 943 00:29:45,203 --> 00:29:46,104 [zaza]: yeah of course i 944 00:29:46,167 --> 00:29:46,288 [toby_jones]: yeah 945 00:29:46,184 --> 00:29:46,364 [zaza]: have 946 00:29:46,388 --> 00:29:46,468 [toby_jones]: so 947 00:29:46,464 --> 00:29:46,605 [zaza]: yeah 948 00:29:46,528 --> 00:29:51,837 [toby_jones]: it's a sort of salty somewhat salty uh yeah alcoholic milk and 949 00:29:51,890 --> 00:29:52,170 [zaza]: okay 950 00:29:51,997 --> 00:29:56,485 [toby_jones]: so yeah for me absolutely not but they absolutely loved it and of course it 951 00:29:56,665 --> 00:29:59,630 [toby_jones]: also has to do with what you can get of 952 00:29:59,573 --> 00:30:01,163 [zaza]: oh 953 00:30:00,331 --> 00:30:02,714 [toby_jones]: in a nomadic society right you don't have 954 00:30:03,623 --> 00:30:03,825 [zaza]: yeah 955 00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:07,361 [toby_jones]: yeah they didn't really have many they can't 956 00:30:07,253 --> 00:30:07,333 [zaza]: the 957 00:30:07,401 --> 00:30:09,825 [toby_jones]: grow rice or grapes so 958 00:30:10,033 --> 00:30:12,503 [zaza]: oh 959 00:30:10,125 --> 00:30:13,231 [toby_jones]: you know the alcohol that they can get hold of is usually you know based 960 00:30:13,311 --> 00:30:14,593 [toby_jones]: on milk and so that 961 00:30:14,543 --> 00:30:14,603 [zaza]: so 962 00:30:15,034 --> 00:30:19,421 [toby_jones]: it makes sense that that's what they would drink and yeah then when they sort 963 00:30:19,461 --> 00:30:24,930 [toby_jones]: of conquered the more sedentary lands with rice wine and china for example or grape 964 00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:25,471 [toby_jones]: they became 965 00:30:25,683 --> 00:30:25,703 [zaza]: a 966 00:30:25,731 --> 00:30:29,738 [toby_jones]: obsessed with that too so yeah they didn't they weren't that picking in the end 967 00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:30,216 [zaza]: okay 968 00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:30,912 [toby_jones]: oh 969 00:30:30,817 --> 00:30:35,385 [zaza]: so were the like were they drinking where there's special social occasions or 970 00:30:35,478 --> 00:30:35,620 [toby_jones]: yeah 971 00:30:35,505 --> 00:30:35,745 [zaza]: when they 972 00:30:35,761 --> 00:30:35,862 [toby_jones]: so 973 00:30:35,785 --> 00:30:37,949 [zaza]: were drinking like after a victory or were they 974 00:30:37,890 --> 00:30:38,550 [toby_jones]: yeah 975 00:30:38,009 --> 00:30:39,512 [zaza]: just like kind of sipping it 976 00:30:39,489 --> 00:30:40,980 [toby_jones]: m yeah 977 00:30:40,255 --> 00:30:41,165 [zaza]: of on the regular 978 00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:42,031 [toby_jones]: well 979 00:30:42,113 --> 00:30:42,333 [zaza]: well 980 00:30:42,391 --> 00:30:46,699 [toby_jones]: i don't know about sipping it on the regular but there's there's there's certainly so 981 00:30:46,999 --> 00:30:50,906 [toby_jones]: basically one of the most important state 982 00:30:50,803 --> 00:30:51,125 [zaza]: state 983 00:30:51,026 --> 00:30:57,191 [toby_jones]: functions but also society unions was called the code tie and this is the sort 984 00:30:57,251 --> 00:31:03,141 [toby_jones]: of coming together of mongol elite and it 985 00:31:03,204 --> 00:31:03,444 [zaza]: the big 986 00:31:03,361 --> 00:31:03,522 [toby_jones]: sort 987 00:31:03,544 --> 00:31:03,845 [zaza]: party 988 00:31:03,562 --> 00:31:04,443 [toby_jones]: of yeah 989 00:31:04,286 --> 00:31:04,787 [zaza]: of the elite 990 00:31:04,643 --> 00:31:13,799 [toby_jones]: but it also formed it's a party but also the court the parliament the marriage 991 00:31:13,753 --> 00:31:13,773 [zaza]: a 992 00:31:13,919 --> 00:31:19,829 [toby_jones]: hole you know this is where all the important things in mongelmongl empire take place 993 00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:25,518 [toby_jones]: it's attended by pretty much all the elite men and women um and often would 994 00:31:25,578 --> 00:31:29,886 [toby_jones]: go for months um and drinking was part of it feasting was part of it 995 00:31:30,126 --> 00:31:34,974 [toby_jones]: the whole time so it really is this sort of non stop thing and it 996 00:31:35,014 --> 00:31:35,755 [toby_jones]: happens twice a 997 00:31:35,724 --> 00:31:35,744 [zaza]: i 998 00:31:35,815 --> 00:31:37,779 [toby_jones]: year sometimes more and so 999 00:31:37,904 --> 00:31:38,005 [zaza]: so 1000 00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:41,224 [toby_jones]: yeah this is definitely a key part mongol life 1001 00:31:41,331 --> 00:31:41,351 [zaza]: i 1002 00:31:42,507 --> 00:31:47,782 [toby_jones]: and of course it's it's functions were incredibly important but i think also this social 1003 00:31:47,862 --> 00:31:52,165 [toby_jones]: function of you know sort of in a sense trying to keep the family together 1004 00:31:52,286 --> 00:31:52,389 [zaza]: the 1005 00:31:52,567 --> 00:31:53,228 [toby_jones]: despite these 1006 00:31:53,065 --> 00:31:53,085 [zaza]: i 1007 00:31:53,429 --> 00:31:56,197 [toby_jones]: big distances that they began to be separated by 1008 00:31:57,563 --> 00:32:00,406 [zaza]: so a lot of meat and a lot of alcohol at these occasions 1009 00:32:00,011 --> 00:32:03,598 [toby_jones]: indeed so i mean that's that's the that's the yeah when you can't 1010 00:32:03,468 --> 00:32:03,689 [zaza]: count 1011 00:32:03,718 --> 00:32:03,898 [toby_jones]: grow 1012 00:32:03,789 --> 00:32:04,109 [zaza]: me in 1013 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:04,780 [toby_jones]: yeah 1014 00:32:04,750 --> 00:32:05,470 [zaza]: sounds sounds 1015 00:32:05,341 --> 00:32:05,541 [toby_jones]: well 1016 00:32:05,530 --> 00:32:06,051 [zaza]: like a bash 1017 00:32:05,842 --> 00:32:06,202 [toby_jones]: i don't know 1018 00:32:06,111 --> 00:32:06,411 [zaza]: all right 1019 00:32:06,402 --> 00:32:09,708 [toby_jones]: i don't know about that if you if you read some of the you read 1020 00:32:09,748 --> 00:32:13,995 [toby_jones]: some of the european accounts of the travel that they did across the russian step 1021 00:32:14,977 --> 00:32:15,197 [toby_jones]: there's 1022 00:32:15,234 --> 00:32:15,455 [zaza]: there's 1023 00:32:15,237 --> 00:32:15,538 [toby_jones]: a lot of 1024 00:32:15,495 --> 00:32:15,516 [zaza]: a 1025 00:32:15,858 --> 00:32:21,648 [toby_jones]: meats that we wouldn't necessarily enjoy ourselves like squirrel and things like that so yeah 1026 00:32:21,988 --> 00:32:26,015 [toby_jones]: they weren't too picky they basically ate whatever they could get hold of or 1027 00:32:26,035 --> 00:32:26,218 [zaza]: the 1028 00:32:26,075 --> 00:32:27,938 [toby_jones]: hunt so of course 1029 00:32:27,976 --> 00:32:28,016 [zaza]: of 1030 00:32:27,998 --> 00:32:28,099 [toby_jones]: the 1031 00:32:28,097 --> 00:32:28,259 [zaza]: course 1032 00:32:28,159 --> 00:32:28,339 [toby_jones]: hunt 1033 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:28,421 [zaza]: the 1034 00:32:28,439 --> 00:32:31,384 [toby_jones]: is other huge part of not just mongol 1035 00:32:31,243 --> 00:32:31,363 [zaza]: just 1036 00:32:31,424 --> 00:32:37,414 [toby_jones]: society many many pre modern societies use the hunt as sort of this yeah 1037 00:32:37,544 --> 00:32:37,704 [zaza]: yeah 1038 00:32:37,675 --> 00:32:42,962 [toby_jones]: sort of status symbol but also practice for troops and things like that and so 1039 00:32:43,042 --> 00:32:43,122 [toby_jones]: the 1040 00:32:43,173 --> 00:32:43,233 [zaza]: so 1041 00:32:43,182 --> 00:32:43,483 [toby_jones]: mongol 1042 00:32:43,334 --> 00:32:43,394 [zaza]: the 1043 00:32:43,563 --> 00:32:46,626 [toby_jones]: hunt was you know an absolutely massive affair 1044 00:32:46,785 --> 00:32:47,423 [zaza]: yeah 1045 00:32:47,087 --> 00:32:48,489 [toby_jones]: and they would create this ring 1046 00:32:48,598 --> 00:32:48,700 [zaza]: it 1047 00:32:49,660 --> 00:32:56,251 [toby_jones]: of troops and this ring would literally close from several days away and force all 1048 00:32:56,311 --> 00:33:01,459 [toby_jones]: the animals into a giant circle and then they would just a sort of shoot 1049 00:33:01,660 --> 00:33:05,536 [toby_jones]: it doesn't seem like the most glorious type of hunting but it 1050 00:33:05,487 --> 00:33:05,667 [zaza]: seems 1051 00:33:05,576 --> 00:33:05,677 [toby_jones]: was 1052 00:33:05,747 --> 00:33:06,248 [zaza]: smart though 1053 00:33:06,590 --> 00:33:09,174 [toby_jones]: it's extremely effective and of course it's practiced 1054 00:33:09,255 --> 00:33:09,275 [zaza]: a 1055 00:33:09,274 --> 00:33:13,060 [toby_jones]: for their military campaigns which they did similar 1056 00:33:12,803 --> 00:33:13,085 [zaza]: yeah 1057 00:33:13,121 --> 00:33:14,182 [toby_jones]: things so yeah 1058 00:33:14,303 --> 00:33:14,404 [zaza]: yeah 1059 00:33:14,483 --> 00:33:18,209 [toby_jones]: it's all part of this important social cohesion 1060 00:33:17,793 --> 00:33:18,334 [zaza]: oh gosh 1061 00:33:18,329 --> 00:33:18,489 [toby_jones]: thing 1062 00:33:18,614 --> 00:33:19,696 [zaza]: this is so cool like 1063 00:33:19,930 --> 00:33:20,051 [toby_jones]: yeah 1064 00:33:20,077 --> 00:33:21,199 [zaza]: i wish we could just dedicate 1065 00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:21,230 [toby_jones]: m 1066 00:33:21,239 --> 00:33:26,708 [zaza]: the whole hour to mongol feasting you know just like an endless stream of questions 1067 00:33:26,748 --> 00:33:27,509 [zaza]: that are going through 1068 00:33:27,347 --> 00:33:27,488 [toby_jones]: yeah 1069 00:33:27,549 --> 00:33:28,250 [zaza]: my head right now 1070 00:33:28,293 --> 00:33:28,413 [toby_jones]: yeah 1071 00:33:28,371 --> 00:33:30,456 [zaza]: but okay let's get back on a little bit i'm sorry 1072 00:33:30,282 --> 00:33:30,483 [toby_jones]: sure 1073 00:33:30,758 --> 00:33:32,686 [zaza]: i just keep like poking at everything that 1074 00:33:32,632 --> 00:33:32,752 [toby_jones]: it's 1075 00:33:32,726 --> 00:33:32,806 [zaza]: you 1076 00:33:32,853 --> 00:33:33,095 [toby_jones]: fine 1077 00:33:32,987 --> 00:33:33,167 [zaza]: say 1078 00:33:33,679 --> 00:33:34,303 [toby_jones]: i am enjoying it 1079 00:33:34,873 --> 00:33:40,182 [zaza]: okay so once the mongols get unified and start conquering 1080 00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:40,351 [toby_jones]: oh 1081 00:33:41,233 --> 00:33:47,824 [zaza]: these like other empires especially because we have some really sophisticated societies like in china 1082 00:33:47,904 --> 00:33:51,890 [zaza]: and then we have the sultanate um so i have a couple of questions number 1083 00:33:52,031 --> 00:33:58,882 [zaza]: one is what was their ideology that was that they used to justify kind of 1084 00:33:58,982 --> 00:34:06,776 [zaza]: expanding and conquering other people did they even need one or was that just like 1085 00:34:07,277 --> 00:34:08,539 [zaza]: a fact of the times and 1086 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:09,296 [toby_jones]: ye 1087 00:34:09,661 --> 00:34:10,683 [zaza]: the world that they were living in 1088 00:34:10,890 --> 00:34:11,112 [toby_jones]: oh 1089 00:34:11,164 --> 00:34:14,751 [zaza]: or did they have like a special mission that was feeling all that 1090 00:34:15,660 --> 00:34:17,203 [toby_jones]: well so yeah there's 1091 00:34:17,071 --> 00:34:17,152 [zaza]: ah 1092 00:34:17,343 --> 00:34:22,492 [toby_jones]: there's yeah i think at the beginning there's definitely a m so if you look 1093 00:34:22,672 --> 00:34:26,859 [toby_jones]: at the original conquest the first conquest yeah they're 1094 00:34:26,756 --> 00:34:28,133 [zaza]: yeah 1095 00:34:26,899 --> 00:34:30,303 [toby_jones]: against gin so you have this sort of revenge thing and there always 1096 00:34:30,063 --> 00:34:30,204 [zaza]: there 1097 00:34:30,403 --> 00:34:37,030 [toby_jones]: does seem to be at least yeah a claim for a cause so that would 1098 00:34:37,090 --> 00:34:43,701 [toby_jones]: be one another very major one was harboring timagen's enemies so of course 1099 00:34:43,575 --> 00:34:43,636 [zaza]: m 1100 00:34:44,022 --> 00:34:48,309 [toby_jones]: many of the people groups on the step fled when they started to realize how 1101 00:34:48,670 --> 00:34:51,558 [toby_jones]: powerful that timogen had become and so 1102 00:34:51,773 --> 00:34:51,974 [zaza]: oh 1103 00:34:52,140 --> 00:34:56,341 [toby_jones]: people groups like the kipchalks or the name on 1104 00:34:56,364 --> 00:34:56,384 [zaza]: m 1105 00:34:57,282 --> 00:35:03,132 [toby_jones]: they fled to their leaders and many of their soldiers fled to other states and 1106 00:35:03,212 --> 00:35:09,142 [toby_jones]: so the accepting of these refugees was used by timagen as a reason to attack 1107 00:35:09,683 --> 00:35:14,050 [toby_jones]: so after a certain point he would say well you harbored my enemies and 1108 00:35:14,543 --> 00:35:14,785 [zaza]: oh 1109 00:35:14,932 --> 00:35:17,877 [toby_jones]: yeah i want to defeat them i want to 1110 00:35:17,785 --> 00:35:17,806 [zaza]: a 1111 00:35:18,418 --> 00:35:21,964 [toby_jones]: and this is part of this de ology that at first seems to have been 1112 00:35:22,585 --> 00:35:26,090 [toby_jones]: in the secret history of the mongols he claimed to want to rule all the 1113 00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:31,560 [toby_jones]: people of the felt walled tents so essentially all the people who share that nomadic 1114 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,660 [toby_jones]: life style of the step however 1115 00:35:34,663 --> 00:35:34,926 [zaza]: whatever 1116 00:35:35,121 --> 00:35:42,754 [toby_jones]: eventually this comes to be something bigger and either under his son gade or before 1117 00:35:43,094 --> 00:35:49,605 [toby_jones]: there seems to be this sort of yeah development a more universalist ideology that were 1118 00:35:49,685 --> 00:35:56,096 [toby_jones]: sort of destined by heaven to conquer the world and a lot of the let's 1119 00:35:56,136 --> 00:36:01,565 [toby_jones]: say the letters that are exchanged with rulers like the pope for example they have 1120 00:36:01,625 --> 00:36:07,275 [toby_jones]: this sort of formulas by the by the will of heaven and essentially it's somewhat 1121 00:36:07,335 --> 00:36:10,382 [toby_jones]: of chinese concept right this mandate of heaven that 1122 00:36:10,333 --> 00:36:10,414 [zaza]: i'm 1123 00:36:10,423 --> 00:36:10,564 [toby_jones]: was 1124 00:36:10,474 --> 00:36:12,987 [zaza]: sorry the mongols exchanged letters with the pope 1125 00:36:13,830 --> 00:36:14,331 [toby_jones]: indeed yeah 1126 00:36:15,123 --> 00:36:15,243 [zaza]: oh 1127 00:36:15,214 --> 00:36:15,374 [toby_jones]: yeah 1128 00:36:15,303 --> 00:36:16,386 [zaza]: wow that's just 1129 00:36:16,397 --> 00:36:16,557 [toby_jones]: yeah 1130 00:36:16,687 --> 00:36:17,750 [zaza]: blows my mind right there 1131 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:24,066 [toby_jones]: yeah so at some point when when the monguls moved into first they were chasing 1132 00:36:24,126 --> 00:36:26,748 [toby_jones]: the kipchak through the russian steps then 1133 00:36:26,726 --> 00:36:26,806 [zaza]: and 1134 00:36:26,828 --> 00:36:26,949 [toby_jones]: they 1135 00:36:26,846 --> 00:36:29,070 [zaza]: the kipchaskechack kind of 1136 00:36:29,190 --> 00:36:30,512 [toby_jones]: kept going west indeed 1137 00:36:30,392 --> 00:36:30,692 [zaza]: kept goin 1138 00:36:30,672 --> 00:36:30,933 [toby_jones]: so they 1139 00:36:30,873 --> 00:36:31,637 [zaza]: west and 1140 00:36:31,594 --> 00:36:31,734 [toby_jones]: yeah 1141 00:36:31,737 --> 00:36:31,878 [zaza]: came 1142 00:36:31,914 --> 00:36:31,994 [toby_jones]: so 1143 00:36:31,918 --> 00:36:31,979 [zaza]: to 1144 00:36:32,034 --> 00:36:32,155 [toby_jones]: they 1145 00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:32,320 [zaza]: hungary 1146 00:36:32,235 --> 00:36:32,375 [toby_jones]: took 1147 00:36:32,381 --> 00:36:33,245 [zaza]: or poland or something 1148 00:36:33,296 --> 00:36:33,457 [toby_jones]: yeah 1149 00:36:33,305 --> 00:36:33,446 [zaza]: right 1150 00:36:33,517 --> 00:36:37,303 [toby_jones]: they took refuge first with the ruse princes so russia 1151 00:36:37,103 --> 00:36:37,224 [zaza]: yeah 1152 00:36:37,443 --> 00:36:39,246 [toby_jones]: is not a country at that time it's just a 1153 00:36:40,193 --> 00:36:41,273 [zaza]: yeah 1154 00:36:40,769 --> 00:36:44,916 [toby_jones]: sort of sea quensive principalities they took refuge with them the monguls chased them there 1155 00:36:45,337 --> 00:36:50,906 [toby_jones]: took over the roots the regions of the roots then they fled even further 1156 00:36:51,143 --> 00:36:51,344 [zaza]: there 1157 00:36:51,146 --> 00:36:56,558 [toby_jones]: all the way to hungary where the king accepted that bella the fourth accepted them 1158 00:36:57,590 --> 00:37:01,096 [toby_jones]: and then this was used by the monguls as a reason to then attack hungary 1159 00:37:02,097 --> 00:37:08,107 [toby_jones]: and so after that when western europe sort of sort of suddenly realized what was 1160 00:37:08,127 --> 00:37:09,309 [toby_jones]: happening there was 1161 00:37:09,374 --> 00:37:09,495 [zaza]: the 1162 00:37:09,530 --> 00:37:18,665 [toby_jones]: sort of frantic scramble for information and that's when the pope sent certain yeah it's 1163 00:37:19,266 --> 00:37:22,692 [toby_jones]: someone i read a book recently that called hi the most unlikely 1164 00:37:22,713 --> 00:37:22,873 [zaza]: like 1165 00:37:22,792 --> 00:37:27,540 [toby_jones]: james bond ever who was a very overweight priest was sent 1166 00:37:28,133 --> 00:37:28,574 [zaza]: oh 1167 00:37:28,281 --> 00:37:33,593 [toby_jones]: to to visit the monguls and yeah his name was john of planocarpini francis and 1168 00:37:33,654 --> 00:37:39,187 [toby_jones]: monk and he was sent to find out what he could about the mongol so 1169 00:37:39,287 --> 00:37:40,790 [toby_jones]: he went in the twelve forties 1170 00:37:41,723 --> 00:37:41,964 [zaza]: oh 1171 00:37:41,851 --> 00:37:48,563 [toby_jones]: and went all the way to mongolia and deliver the letters from the pope to 1172 00:37:49,204 --> 00:37:49,624 [toby_jones]: the khan 1173 00:37:49,673 --> 00:37:49,856 [zaza]: oh 1174 00:37:49,725 --> 00:37:53,451 [toby_jones]: at the time and then went back all the way 1175 00:37:53,495 --> 00:37:53,556 [zaza]: the 1176 00:37:53,511 --> 00:37:57,558 [toby_jones]: back with with his responses and then in the twelve fifties another 1177 00:37:57,643 --> 00:37:57,724 [zaza]: the 1178 00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:06,432 [toby_jones]: monk from yeah the from flanders william ofrubrook went as well and so yeah there's 1179 00:38:06,472 --> 00:38:10,680 [toby_jones]: the sort of yea there's a sort of demand for information is there as here 1180 00:38:10,780 --> 00:38:16,469 [toby_jones]: going out to try and find what what what has just happened and yeah so 1181 00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:21,918 [toby_jones]: you have a lot of interesting accounts from these european sources as well and they 1182 00:38:22,058 --> 00:38:24,441 [toby_jones]: sort of bumble their way through asia 1183 00:38:25,253 --> 00:38:26,903 [zaza]: yeah 1184 00:38:25,523 --> 00:38:27,345 [toby_jones]: and committing all 1185 00:38:27,303 --> 00:38:27,323 [zaza]: i 1186 00:38:27,405 --> 00:38:30,628 [toby_jones]: sorts of fopaths not knowing things and yeah 1187 00:38:30,894 --> 00:38:33,578 [zaza]: can you i'm sorry but this just sounds 1188 00:38:34,292 --> 00:38:34,454 [toby_jones]: yeah 1189 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,847 [zaza]: incredible yet again that this fat 1190 00:38:38,681 --> 00:38:38,761 [toby_jones]: ah 1191 00:38:40,409 --> 00:38:45,818 [zaza]: dominican friar was like the agent who was like an intelligent agent who was collecting 1192 00:38:45,612 --> 00:38:45,755 [toby_jones]: yeah 1193 00:38:45,919 --> 00:38:49,184 [zaza]: who was going slowly towards the mongols and like collecting 1194 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:49,682 [toby_jones]: drunk drunkenly 1195 00:38:49,244 --> 00:38:49,785 [zaza]: information 1196 00:38:49,822 --> 00:38:50,443 [toby_jones]: making his way 1197 00:38:50,566 --> 00:38:51,047 [zaza]: drunkenly 1198 00:38:50,684 --> 00:38:51,125 [toby_jones]: to the east 1199 00:38:51,107 --> 00:38:54,554 [zaza]: making and making all sorts of footpath what kind of footpath was he and for 1200 00:38:54,594 --> 00:38:54,936 [zaza]: example 1201 00:38:54,750 --> 00:38:54,950 [toby_jones]: uh 1202 00:38:54,996 --> 00:38:55,157 [zaza]: do you 1203 00:38:55,171 --> 00:38:55,331 [toby_jones]: yeah 1204 00:38:55,177 --> 00:38:55,459 [zaza]: know any 1205 00:38:55,451 --> 00:38:55,471 [toby_jones]: i 1206 00:38:55,479 --> 00:38:55,519 [zaza]: of 1207 00:38:55,531 --> 00:38:55,672 [toby_jones]: mean 1208 00:38:55,579 --> 00:38:55,700 [zaza]: them 1209 00:38:55,772 --> 00:39:01,521 [toby_jones]: it's it's just yeah obviously confusing people groups and things like that and there's there's 1210 00:39:01,622 --> 00:39:06,910 [toby_jones]: a yeah it's sort of mongul taboo about stepping on the threshold of the tent 1211 00:39:07,952 --> 00:39:11,398 [toby_jones]: and this was so he does that of course and there's all these things that 1212 00:39:11,538 --> 00:39:18,550 [toby_jones]: yeah'sit'syeah both of them seem to have struggled with the expectations and so they n't 1213 00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:20,636 [toby_jones]: really realize that also what's 1214 00:39:20,504 --> 00:39:20,585 [zaza]: so 1215 00:39:20,756 --> 00:39:23,001 [toby_jones]: part of yeah well 1216 00:39:23,076 --> 00:39:23,257 [zaza]: well 1217 00:39:23,282 --> 00:39:27,108 [toby_jones]: many societies but gift giving is really important so in order to sort of get 1218 00:39:27,248 --> 00:39:30,133 [toby_jones]: things to happen you have to give a gift and they 1219 00:39:30,304 --> 00:39:30,386 [zaza]: the 1220 00:39:30,514 --> 00:39:36,564 [toby_jones]: as what do you expect from sort of francis ans and dominicans they're poor right 1221 00:39:36,744 --> 00:39:39,509 [toby_jones]: they're not supposed to be you know sort of well well 1222 00:39:39,605 --> 00:39:40,209 [zaza]: well 1223 00:39:39,749 --> 00:39:40,871 [toby_jones]: well yeah 1224 00:39:41,073 --> 00:39:41,153 [zaza]: ah 1225 00:39:41,171 --> 00:39:44,637 [toby_jones]: loaded with gifts and things so they ended up having to give a lot of 1226 00:39:44,717 --> 00:39:49,611 [toby_jones]: the sort of bibles they had things like that in order move on but then 1227 00:39:49,671 --> 00:39:54,593 [toby_jones]: they were left with very little and yeah they really struggle and you can see 1228 00:39:54,634 --> 00:39:59,201 [toby_jones]: that in the writings that they really are trying to explain for future travellers make 1229 00:39:59,241 --> 00:40:03,168 [toby_jones]: sure you have a lot of things to give because otherwise you won't get anywhere 1230 00:40:03,713 --> 00:40:04,114 [zaza]: oh 1231 00:40:04,450 --> 00:40:09,919 [toby_jones]: so yeah this was you know later later travelers did realize this and they knew 1232 00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:13,325 [toby_jones]: what they had to do but these early ones it was it was quite a 1233 00:40:13,365 --> 00:40:13,645 [toby_jones]: struggle 1234 00:40:13,675 --> 00:40:13,736 [zaza]: the 1235 00:40:13,725 --> 00:40:19,095 [toby_jones]: for them and yeah seem to have been able to offend no end as well 1236 00:40:19,235 --> 00:40:19,355 [toby_jones]: but 1237 00:40:20,033 --> 00:40:24,100 [zaza]: i'm sorry but i didn't realize that our conversation is going to be so amusing 1238 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:24,440 [zaza]: and full 1239 00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:24,620 [toby_jones]: oh 1240 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,888 [zaza]: of these like really funny anecdotes that literally sounds like somebody sent me 1241 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:29,261 [toby_jones]: yeah 1242 00:40:29,068 --> 00:40:30,751 [zaza]: on a diplomatic mission like 1243 00:40:30,712 --> 00:40:30,853 [toby_jones]: yeah 1244 00:40:31,071 --> 00:40:31,873 [zaza]: i don't know what i'm doin i 1245 00:40:31,930 --> 00:40:34,995 [toby_jones]: well this is that of course when you know in this in this situation where 1246 00:40:35,035 --> 00:40:39,082 [toby_jones]: you don't you don't know yeah the world is not 1247 00:40:38,974 --> 00:40:39,056 [zaza]: all 1248 00:40:39,142 --> 00:40:40,324 [toby_jones]: connected right so you know 1249 00:40:40,353 --> 00:40:40,414 [zaza]: of 1250 00:40:40,444 --> 00:40:40,604 [toby_jones]: very 1251 00:40:40,454 --> 00:40:40,655 [zaza]: course 1252 00:40:40,704 --> 00:40:45,452 [toby_jones]: little about let's say even the next the next over the next village over when 1253 00:40:45,492 --> 00:40:50,381 [toby_jones]: you're talking about the types of distances that they were traveling um yeah that they 1254 00:40:50,441 --> 00:40:53,626 [toby_jones]: were really not aware and this is actually one of the interesting things about this 1255 00:40:53,686 --> 00:40:58,294 [toby_jones]: period is that western europe is unaware of the rest of the world and when 1256 00:40:58,334 --> 00:41:02,681 [toby_jones]: you look at it in comparison to the mongols i mean they basically connect 1257 00:41:02,733 --> 00:41:02,893 [zaza]: that 1258 00:41:02,961 --> 00:41:07,990 [toby_jones]: all of eurasia and they have very keen awareness of all these different people and 1259 00:41:08,030 --> 00:41:12,718 [toby_jones]: this is what's actually fascinating when we see it from this sort of western civilized 1260 00:41:12,758 --> 00:41:15,282 [toby_jones]: perspective is that they were far more aware 1261 00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:15,570 [zaza]: we 1262 00:41:15,402 --> 00:41:20,170 [toby_jones]: of the sort of differences between people groups and things like that than the the 1263 00:41:20,230 --> 00:41:26,421 [toby_jones]: west was at the time unto yeah it's a it's a really fascinating moment when 1264 00:41:26,461 --> 00:41:31,389 [toby_jones]: you see that the monguls are connecting these societies so societies that have not really 1265 00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:37,118 [toby_jones]: i had these connections before like china and iran or to to an extent but 1266 00:41:37,299 --> 00:41:41,105 [toby_jones]: but to a much greater degree during the mongol period and 1267 00:41:41,165 --> 00:41:41,185 [zaza]: m 1268 00:41:41,165 --> 00:41:45,242 [toby_jones]: this is what yeah many sort of interesting 1269 00:41:45,274 --> 00:41:45,336 [zaza]: ye 1270 00:41:45,522 --> 00:41:51,232 [toby_jones]: books have been written about these sort of exchanges that happened between societies and there's 1271 00:41:51,292 --> 00:41:53,155 [toby_jones]: also the idea that this is the sort of 1272 00:41:53,094 --> 00:41:53,177 [zaza]: so 1273 00:41:54,317 --> 00:41:56,641 [toby_jones]: i don't know if you've ever heard of worlds tom's theory 1274 00:41:57,235 --> 00:41:57,315 [zaza]: no 1275 00:41:57,803 --> 00:42:03,272 [toby_jones]: but the idea that basically there are the separate world systems and they before the 1276 00:42:03,332 --> 00:42:05,295 [toby_jones]: sort of they were connected 1277 00:42:04,894 --> 00:42:05,480 [zaza]: we're 1278 00:42:05,395 --> 00:42:10,524 [toby_jones]: in the pre modern society then at some point connect up and so the original 1279 00:42:10,784 --> 00:42:14,430 [toby_jones]: idea was that they connect up in a bound the seventeenth century and then there 1280 00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:18,757 [toby_jones]: was an author who said well no in the mongol period they actually all connect 1281 00:42:18,878 --> 00:42:25,188 [toby_jones]: up in this so she has these seven sort of geographical regions that become interconnected 1282 00:42:25,268 --> 00:42:33,362 [toby_jones]: through trade during the mongol empire because they essentially famously they created one of the 1283 00:42:33,943 --> 00:42:40,674 [toby_jones]: largest postal networks if not the largest postal network ever under the same rule and 1284 00:42:40,834 --> 00:42:43,659 [toby_jones]: this allowed for people to travel quite easily 1285 00:42:44,183 --> 00:42:44,403 [zaza]: oh 1286 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,447 [toby_jones]: and they have these postal stations set up all the way along even in the 1287 00:42:48,507 --> 00:42:54,457 [toby_jones]: sort of you the bleak steps of russia they had these postal stations and so 1288 00:42:54,798 --> 00:42:55,358 [toby_jones]: this allowed 1289 00:42:55,475 --> 00:42:55,495 [zaza]: o 1290 00:42:56,950 --> 00:43:01,978 [toby_jones]: people to travel a lot more and so this of course brought huge huge amounts 1291 00:43:02,058 --> 00:43:03,280 [toby_jones]: of wealth 1292 00:43:03,308 --> 00:43:03,449 [zaza]: well 1293 00:43:03,721 --> 00:43:07,908 [toby_jones]: to the mongols as traders realized that they could go all the way there and 1294 00:43:08,409 --> 00:43:12,255 [toby_jones]: on may a lot of money and the monguls brought the wealth in and then 1295 00:43:12,876 --> 00:43:19,527 [toby_jones]: sent it out again basically creating trading partnerships with different traders who went out and 1296 00:43:20,088 --> 00:43:23,812 [toby_jones]: brought all sorts interesting things back to them so you really i mean they became 1297 00:43:23,892 --> 00:43:25,534 [toby_jones]: incredibly wealthy the mongol elite 1298 00:43:25,489 --> 00:43:26,123 [zaza]: hm 1299 00:43:26,295 --> 00:43:30,839 [toby_jones]: and of course as you'd expect with the large empire that they created 1300 00:43:32,113 --> 00:43:32,353 [zaza]: ah 1301 00:43:32,190 --> 00:43:33,672 [toby_jones]: sorry i went a little off topic there 1302 00:43:33,754 --> 00:43:36,657 [zaza]: no no no good all good i'm going to bring you right back so 1303 00:43:36,777 --> 00:43:36,937 [toby_jones]: okay 1304 00:43:36,817 --> 00:43:39,099 [zaza]: why didn't the mongols conquer europe then 1305 00:43:39,810 --> 00:43:40,131 [toby_jones]: yeah 1306 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,942 [zaza]: where the pope's letters actually effective probably not right 1307 00:43:43,781 --> 00:43:51,493 [toby_jones]: no so the pope's basically the monguls basically kept essentially demanding his submission 1308 00:43:52,314 --> 00:43:52,334 [zaza]: m 1309 00:43:52,976 --> 00:43:58,405 [toby_jones]: and they believed they this is where they definitely had europe wrong they believe that 1310 00:43:58,425 --> 00:44:00,589 [toby_jones]: the pope had actual power and could 1311 00:44:00,399 --> 00:44:00,600 [zaza]: okay 1312 00:44:01,029 --> 00:44:06,739 [toby_jones]: could force the let's say the other kings of europe to submit and so they 1313 00:44:06,839 --> 00:44:09,547 [toby_jones]: cone asked for that and of course never happened but 1314 00:44:09,665 --> 00:44:09,789 [zaza]: what 1315 00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:15,395 [toby_jones]: yeah they did of course they reached they reached into croatia even 1316 00:44:15,517 --> 00:44:15,638 [zaza]: yeah 1317 00:44:16,095 --> 00:44:18,758 [toby_jones]: they reached all the way to the adriatic and they 1318 00:44:19,523 --> 00:44:19,543 [zaza]: m 1319 00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:25,688 [toby_jones]: had defeated of course the major european armies at league it and 1320 00:44:26,363 --> 00:44:26,565 [zaza]: oh 1321 00:44:26,549 --> 00:44:30,496 [toby_jones]: at the battle of mohi and hungary and so they had no real reason to 1322 00:44:30,556 --> 00:44:36,726 [toby_jones]: stop apart from the fact that the han at the time died and so they 1323 00:44:36,907 --> 00:44:41,935 [toby_jones]: all had to go back for the cool tie to decide the next ruler and 1324 00:44:41,995 --> 00:44:42,496 [toby_jones]: so this is 1325 00:44:42,523 --> 00:44:42,664 [zaza]: this 1326 00:44:42,596 --> 00:44:42,696 [toby_jones]: the 1327 00:44:42,764 --> 00:44:42,824 [zaza]: is 1328 00:44:42,816 --> 00:44:49,051 [toby_jones]: most basic explanation of why um there are other factors of course things like their 1329 00:44:49,171 --> 00:44:55,254 [toby_jones]: armies were largely of course based on horses and so do you need step lands 1330 00:44:55,334 --> 00:44:56,596 [toby_jones]: et cetera but they also 1331 00:44:56,503 --> 00:44:56,623 [zaza]: they 1332 00:44:56,716 --> 00:45:00,703 [toby_jones]: conquered plenty of areas that they didn't couldn't use their 1333 00:45:00,743 --> 00:45:00,844 [zaza]: ye 1334 00:45:00,883 --> 00:45:06,551 [toby_jones]: you know their their their horse archers in so yeah it's it's not a 1335 00:45:06,554 --> 00:45:06,634 [zaza]: no 1336 00:45:06,692 --> 00:45:11,457 [toby_jones]: convincing argument in my in my book and that seems to be the most the 1337 00:45:11,497 --> 00:45:13,399 [toby_jones]: most straightforward is the best one 1338 00:45:14,043 --> 00:45:16,788 [zaza]: but how come they didn't come back after the feasting 1339 00:45:16,272 --> 00:45:16,435 [toby_jones]: yeah 1340 00:45:17,069 --> 00:45:20,316 [zaza]: and the choosing the new can right or sorry 1341 00:45:20,590 --> 00:45:21,111 [toby_jones]: yeah so i 1342 00:45:21,097 --> 00:45:21,117 [zaza]: i 1343 00:45:21,151 --> 00:45:21,271 [toby_jones]: mean 1344 00:45:21,157 --> 00:45:21,398 [zaza]: don't know 1345 00:45:21,311 --> 00:45:25,818 [toby_jones]: there was a sort of a bit of a lull period in the fact that 1346 00:45:25,899 --> 00:45:30,787 [toby_jones]: guy who succeeded ogidethat the third can only lived for a couple of years and 1347 00:45:30,827 --> 00:45:31,688 [toby_jones]: then his wife 1348 00:45:31,757 --> 00:45:31,777 [zaza]: i 1349 00:45:32,269 --> 00:45:35,515 [toby_jones]: took over and she ruled for a couple of years as well and so there's 1350 00:45:35,555 --> 00:45:40,363 [toby_jones]: this bit of a lull in the twelve forties and then basically what happens is 1351 00:45:40,403 --> 00:45:40,684 [toby_jones]: there's a 1352 00:45:40,722 --> 00:45:40,763 [zaza]: ah 1353 00:45:40,824 --> 00:45:51,141 [toby_jones]: coo and the descendants of okada who been chosen to rule are overthrown and oloicinguss 1354 00:45:51,201 --> 00:45:56,009 [toby_jones]: youngest son his eldest son monke becomes the next han and he sort of changes 1355 00:45:56,130 --> 00:46:01,438 [toby_jones]: the goals so he's the one who sends the two i would say the two 1356 00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:06,126 [toby_jones]: biggest invasion groups and that one of those is to conquer the sung 1357 00:46:06,173 --> 00:46:06,253 [zaza]: so 1358 00:46:06,286 --> 00:46:09,051 [toby_jones]: dynasty in southern china china and the other 1359 00:46:08,924 --> 00:46:09,005 [zaza]: the 1360 00:46:09,612 --> 00:46:13,278 [toby_jones]: with his brother both of them are led by his brothers the other goes west 1361 00:46:14,681 --> 00:46:23,436 [toby_jones]: under his brother houliguto conquer essence the the assassins the ismail assassins in 1362 00:46:23,645 --> 00:46:23,786 [zaza]: yeah 1363 00:46:23,696 --> 00:46:28,943 [toby_jones]: middle east and the calif of bagdad and so these two things are the sort 1364 00:46:28,983 --> 00:46:29,284 [toby_jones]: of big 1365 00:46:29,364 --> 00:46:29,546 [zaza]: big 1366 00:46:29,905 --> 00:46:31,067 [toby_jones]: projects of 1367 00:46:31,163 --> 00:46:32,148 [zaza]: so this is the infamous 1368 00:46:31,868 --> 00:46:32,369 [toby_jones]: monks reign 1369 00:46:32,188 --> 00:46:33,154 [zaza]: siege of bagdad then 1370 00:46:33,490 --> 00:46:40,421 [toby_jones]: yes yeh and mona in fact dies before before either of them completed but those 1371 00:46:40,622 --> 00:46:46,631 [toby_jones]: are completed by his his brothers in the end but by that point the monga 1372 00:46:46,711 --> 00:46:49,034 [toby_jones]: empire is no longer a united entity 1373 00:46:49,803 --> 00:46:49,984 [zaza]: okay 1374 00:46:50,275 --> 00:46:53,679 [toby_jones]: so it dissolves in around twelve fifty nine when mona dies 1375 00:46:54,543 --> 00:46:55,424 [zaza]: okay just going back 1376 00:46:55,350 --> 00:46:56,010 [toby_jones]: oh 1377 00:46:55,465 --> 00:46:56,406 [zaza]: to europe just one last 1378 00:46:56,310 --> 00:46:56,451 [toby_jones]: yeah 1379 00:46:56,466 --> 00:46:56,646 [zaza]: time 1380 00:46:56,653 --> 00:46:56,854 [toby_jones]: sure 1381 00:46:57,869 --> 00:47:00,232 [zaza]: i've heard a podcast once 1382 00:47:00,450 --> 00:47:00,691 [toby_jones]: oh 1383 00:47:00,793 --> 00:47:04,199 [zaza]: and i don't know if the guy was a historian i don't think so but 1384 00:47:04,279 --> 00:47:09,588 [zaza]: he referenced some historians that allegedly say that europe was kind of like a third 1385 00:47:09,668 --> 00:47:14,737 [zaza]: rate power at the time behind this flourishing islamic empire as well as behind of 1386 00:47:14,797 --> 00:47:22,788 [zaza]: course china and that it's eventual kind of elevation to the status of four first 1387 00:47:22,928 --> 00:47:25,613 [zaza]: rate like power was possible only because 1388 00:47:25,530 --> 00:47:25,831 [toby_jones]: oh 1389 00:47:25,673 --> 00:47:31,402 [zaza]: the mongols have single handedly conquered and shattered both of these powers what you what 1390 00:47:31,583 --> 00:47:34,958 [zaza]: think of that theory is that does it make any sense or 1391 00:47:35,653 --> 00:47:38,157 [toby_jones]: well i mean europe is not a power that's that's one thing 1392 00:47:38,575 --> 00:47:38,798 [zaza]: okay 1393 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,504 [toby_jones]: europe i mean europe is incredibly divided at this point there's 1394 00:47:42,333 --> 00:47:42,473 [zaza]: yeah 1395 00:47:42,564 --> 00:47:48,775 [toby_jones]: no you know the even of course when europe becomes powerful it's individual nations that 1396 00:47:48,855 --> 00:47:52,001 [toby_jones]: become quite powerful right i mean they're not doing it together 1397 00:47:52,823 --> 00:47:53,024 [zaza]: oh 1398 00:47:53,224 --> 00:47:53,965 [toby_jones]: and yeah i 1399 00:47:54,023 --> 00:47:55,043 [zaza]: yeah 1400 00:47:54,025 --> 00:47:56,881 [toby_jones]: mean the thing is that you could say 1401 00:47:56,963 --> 00:47:57,145 [zaza]: say 1402 00:47:57,181 --> 00:48:00,206 [toby_jones]: yea the califate for example which is this great power 1403 00:48:00,135 --> 00:48:00,397 [zaza]: power 1404 00:48:02,089 --> 00:48:03,952 [toby_jones]: the abased clift which has ruled 1405 00:48:03,923 --> 00:48:04,166 [zaza]: yeah 1406 00:48:04,333 --> 00:48:07,699 [toby_jones]: for five hundred years or so i mean the monguls destroyed that but it was 1407 00:48:07,779 --> 00:48:10,343 [toby_jones]: already sort of yeah shadow of its former self 1408 00:48:10,487 --> 00:48:10,707 [zaza]: okay 1409 00:48:11,805 --> 00:48:15,151 [toby_jones]: and yeah i mean calling europe a third right i would say europe is about 1410 00:48:15,191 --> 00:48:18,537 [toby_jones]: a sixth rate power at this point i mean you have you have other you 1411 00:48:18,597 --> 00:48:18,977 [toby_jones]: have many 1412 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:19,020 [zaza]: yeah 1413 00:48:19,098 --> 00:48:23,551 [toby_jones]: other many the states of course china is not one state 1414 00:48:23,643 --> 00:48:23,805 [zaza]: yeah 1415 00:48:23,671 --> 00:48:29,100 [toby_jones]: at this point there's three states there in the middle east you have yeah several 1416 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,066 [toby_jones]: states as well then the men luks appear in egypt and they're 1417 00:48:33,063 --> 00:48:33,185 [zaza]: yeah 1418 00:48:33,647 --> 00:48:36,353 [toby_jones]: the ones that europe so at some point 1419 00:48:36,193 --> 00:48:36,253 [zaza]: so 1420 00:48:36,414 --> 00:48:42,526 [toby_jones]: basically what happens is that there the mongols who went to to iron and rock 1421 00:48:42,646 --> 00:48:47,174 [toby_jones]: and syria they create their own state called the ilkanit and they re 1422 00:48:47,225 --> 00:48:47,385 [zaza]: her 1423 00:48:47,314 --> 00:48:53,865 [toby_jones]: big rivals are the mamluks in egypt and so these are slave soldiers who started 1424 00:48:53,945 --> 00:48:57,290 [toby_jones]: a dynasty in the mid thirteenth century and they were 1425 00:48:57,260 --> 00:48:57,525 [zaza]: they were 1426 00:48:58,973 --> 00:48:59,614 [toby_jones]: big rivals 1427 00:48:59,548 --> 00:48:59,568 [zaza]: i 1428 00:48:59,855 --> 00:49:00,736 [toby_jones]: and then 1429 00:49:00,866 --> 00:49:00,948 [zaza]: ah 1430 00:49:02,098 --> 00:49:07,447 [toby_jones]: the ilkhan begin to try and get europe to join them to attack the memluks 1431 00:49:08,028 --> 00:49:11,795 [toby_jones]: so they are aware of course of the previous crusades and they know 1432 00:49:11,653 --> 00:49:12,037 [zaza]: they know 1433 00:49:11,935 --> 00:49:15,942 [toby_jones]: that the europeans you know have this sort of religious idea about 1434 00:49:16,524 --> 00:49:16,904 [zaza]: so they have 1435 00:49:16,943 --> 00:49:17,244 [toby_jones]: attacking 1436 00:49:16,965 --> 00:49:17,666 [zaza]: good intelligence 1437 00:49:18,065 --> 00:49:23,715 [toby_jones]: yes so it never works it never pans out at all but there were these 1438 00:49:23,775 --> 00:49:27,108 [toby_jones]: constant letters going back and forth try and co nate 1439 00:49:27,195 --> 00:49:27,216 [zaza]: a 1440 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,911 [toby_jones]: excuse me to co ordinate an attack on the memlook state so yeah this is 1441 00:49:32,951 --> 00:49:37,679 [toby_jones]: when the period of where europe and and the ilcanite are sort of trying to 1442 00:49:37,739 --> 00:49:44,190 [toby_jones]: get together gang up on their enemies the milo memlotsyeah so i 1443 00:49:44,224 --> 00:49:44,305 [zaza]: so 1444 00:49:44,230 --> 00:49:45,452 [toby_jones]: mean i think there is 1445 00:49:45,413 --> 00:49:45,715 [zaza]: here is 1446 00:49:47,014 --> 00:49:47,255 [toby_jones]: there is 1447 00:49:47,264 --> 00:49:47,385 [zaza]: there 1448 00:49:47,295 --> 00:49:52,884 [toby_jones]: a book famous book i forgot his name he was one of my professors at 1449 00:49:52,924 --> 00:49:53,405 [toby_jones]: saint andrews 1450 00:49:54,173 --> 00:49:54,374 [zaza]: oh 1451 00:49:54,226 --> 00:49:57,832 [toby_jones]: and it's the medieval making of europe and its the idea that this there is 1452 00:49:57,912 --> 00:50:01,779 [toby_jones]: a period where europe starts to sort of grow up a little bit because of 1453 00:50:02,540 --> 00:50:07,669 [toby_jones]: because of less pressure from the east but that's yeah i wouldn't say that's super 1454 00:50:07,849 --> 00:50:13,058 [toby_jones]: accurate because of course the ottoman empire comes in and the ottomans are yeah by 1455 00:50:13,158 --> 00:50:16,303 [toby_jones]: far the most powerful yeah power 1456 00:50:17,333 --> 00:50:18,023 [zaza]: oh 1457 00:50:17,906 --> 00:50:19,448 [toby_jones]: in europe so yeah 1458 00:50:19,323 --> 00:50:19,464 [zaza]: oh 1459 00:50:19,528 --> 00:50:24,757 [toby_jones]: that doesn't really pan out in my book yea it's really the discovery of the 1460 00:50:24,817 --> 00:50:27,121 [toby_jones]: new world and the resources 1461 00:50:27,026 --> 00:50:27,109 [zaza]: so 1462 00:50:27,161 --> 00:50:33,652 [toby_jones]: that that provided and the technology technological advances that happened lay that really allow europe 1463 00:50:34,213 --> 00:50:40,063 [toby_jones]: european powers to become what they were you could say that that began with the 1464 00:50:40,123 --> 00:50:44,029 [toby_jones]: mongols because things like christopher columbus had 1465 00:50:44,184 --> 00:50:44,285 [zaza]: had 1466 00:50:44,190 --> 00:50:49,158 [toby_jones]: copy of marco polo's book when he went on his journey so he was trying 1467 00:50:49,218 --> 00:50:52,503 [toby_jones]: to find this mythical sort of mythical 1468 00:50:52,463 --> 00:50:52,723 [zaza]: yeah 1469 00:50:53,104 --> 00:50:57,772 [toby_jones]: china that marco polo had described so there is this sort of there is a 1470 00:50:57,872 --> 00:50:59,455 [toby_jones]: linking effect in a sense but 1471 00:50:59,603 --> 00:50:59,623 [zaza]: m 1472 00:51:00,276 --> 00:51:04,924 [toby_jones]: the sort of europe finds out about the wonders of the east in this period 1473 00:51:05,405 --> 00:51:10,305 [toby_jones]: so how rich the east is and how there all the european travellers who go 1474 00:51:11,430 --> 00:51:16,198 [toby_jones]: china for example are absolutely shocked by the size of the cities because they're you 1475 00:51:16,238 --> 00:51:20,886 [toby_jones]: know they are they're used to tiny things in a sense and yeah it's 1476 00:51:20,824 --> 00:51:20,884 [zaza]: ah 1477 00:51:21,687 --> 00:51:25,834 [toby_jones]: one of the sort of yeah fallacies it's you're thinking about london and paris as 1478 00:51:25,914 --> 00:51:27,978 [toby_jones]: these great cities but in this period there 1479 00:51:27,925 --> 00:51:27,946 [zaza]: i 1480 00:51:28,198 --> 00:51:32,625 [toby_jones]: your minitschool compared to what can be found in china so yeah it's 1481 00:51:32,558 --> 00:51:32,639 [zaza]: ah 1482 00:51:33,527 --> 00:51:34,088 [toby_jones]: it's an eye 1483 00:51:34,176 --> 00:51:34,196 [zaza]: i 1484 00:51:34,308 --> 00:51:35,590 [toby_jones]: opening mon and for 1485 00:51:35,753 --> 00:51:37,763 [zaza]: yeah 1486 00:51:36,031 --> 00:51:41,099 [toby_jones]: europe that is absolutely true as they start finding out way more than 1487 00:51:41,045 --> 00:51:41,185 [zaza]: more 1488 00:51:41,140 --> 00:51:47,890 [toby_jones]: they ever have about the east and a lot of their even within the let's 1489 00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:51,454 [toby_jones]: say the travel logs that are written there's this sort of development and it becomes 1490 00:51:51,594 --> 00:51:52,215 [toby_jones]: less and less 1491 00:51:52,163 --> 00:51:53,633 [zaza]: yeah 1492 00:51:52,295 --> 00:51:53,856 [toby_jones]: fantastical so there's 1493 00:51:53,894 --> 00:51:54,056 [zaza]: there 1494 00:51:53,936 --> 00:51:58,782 [toby_jones]: a sort of trend in western europe to write pure fantasy about things you 1495 00:51:58,761 --> 00:51:58,882 [zaza]: yeah 1496 00:51:58,822 --> 00:52:01,427 [toby_jones]: don't know right so you have this sort of you know the idea 1497 00:52:01,203 --> 00:52:01,304 [zaza]: the 1498 00:52:01,567 --> 00:52:04,111 [toby_jones]: that the greek idea of the seven climes 1499 00:52:04,147 --> 00:52:04,168 [zaza]: i 1500 00:52:04,191 --> 00:52:08,098 [toby_jones]: and the center and then as you go out more and more crazy things start 1501 00:52:08,178 --> 00:52:09,560 [toby_jones]: happening like the dog 1502 00:52:09,497 --> 00:52:09,878 [zaza]: dragons 1503 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:10,422 [toby_jones]: headed the 1504 00:52:10,439 --> 00:52:10,599 [zaza]: yeah 1505 00:52:10,482 --> 00:52:12,185 [toby_jones]: dog headed people or the people with 1506 00:52:12,141 --> 00:52:12,201 [zaza]: of 1507 00:52:12,245 --> 00:52:12,265 [toby_jones]: a 1508 00:52:12,261 --> 00:52:12,481 [zaza]: course 1509 00:52:12,365 --> 00:52:16,231 [toby_jones]: foot in the middle of their stomach and things like that and so john of 1510 00:52:16,292 --> 00:52:22,181 [toby_jones]: planofcarpini the first european traveler to go to the monguls he still is writing about 1511 00:52:22,221 --> 00:52:24,565 [toby_jones]: these dog headed people living just 1512 00:52:24,553 --> 00:52:24,753 [zaza]: that's 1513 00:52:24,625 --> 00:52:24,966 [toby_jones]: beyond 1514 00:52:24,954 --> 00:52:26,557 [zaza]: that's the james bond the fat monk 1515 00:52:26,388 --> 00:52:26,569 [toby_jones]: yeah 1516 00:52:26,697 --> 00:52:26,837 [zaza]: right 1517 00:52:26,729 --> 00:52:30,776 [toby_jones]: yeah so they're living just beyond where he's actually been so you know he keeps 1518 00:52:30,876 --> 00:52:31,918 [toby_jones]: pushing the boundaries but 1519 00:52:31,947 --> 00:52:34,292 [zaza]: okay 1520 00:52:31,958 --> 00:52:36,866 [toby_jones]: they're still there but what you see is that in the later and the later 1521 00:52:36,966 --> 00:52:42,876 [toby_jones]: moments where later travellers are going there's almost no fantasy there's less and less fantasy 1522 00:52:42,936 --> 00:52:44,619 [toby_jones]: shall we say there's still always a little bit 1523 00:52:44,517 --> 00:52:44,537 [zaza]: i 1524 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:45,861 [toby_jones]: i mean even marco 1525 00:52:45,933 --> 00:52:45,953 [zaza]: a 1526 00:52:45,941 --> 00:52:48,565 [toby_jones]: polo has to throw in a few things but yeah 1527 00:52:48,721 --> 00:52:48,803 [zaza]: ah 1528 00:52:48,966 --> 00:52:55,337 [toby_jones]: they start developing real sort of experience about what these places were and yes that 1529 00:52:55,437 --> 00:52:57,340 [toby_jones]: does lead to a very yeah 1530 00:52:57,499 --> 00:52:57,520 [zaza]: a 1531 00:52:58,382 --> 00:52:59,564 [toby_jones]: trend you could say it led 1532 00:52:59,494 --> 00:52:59,555 [zaza]: it 1533 00:53:00,024 --> 00:53:05,514 [toby_jones]: more let's say it could have influenced the renaissance more in the sense that yeah 1534 00:53:06,115 --> 00:53:12,794 [toby_jones]: fashions for example from the east became popular in the west wearing tartary cloth example 1535 00:53:13,015 --> 00:53:19,689 [toby_jones]: or even the hats that women wear apparently may have been modelled on the mongol 1536 00:53:20,030 --> 00:53:23,375 [toby_jones]: women's hats so there is this it's basically what i was 1537 00:53:23,284 --> 00:53:23,385 [zaza]: what 1538 00:53:23,435 --> 00:53:28,123 [toby_jones]: talking about this greater inter connect in this of eurasia that happens at this point 1539 00:53:28,524 --> 00:53:31,148 [toby_jones]: until there's a great deal more info 1540 00:53:31,374 --> 00:53:31,478 [zaza]: oh 1541 00:53:31,729 --> 00:53:32,811 [toby_jones]: that these people have 1542 00:53:33,285 --> 00:53:33,485 [zaza]: okay 1543 00:53:33,452 --> 00:53:34,313 [toby_jones]: and that's maybe why 1544 00:53:34,307 --> 00:53:34,427 [zaza]: yeah 1545 00:53:34,434 --> 00:53:37,379 [toby_jones]: there's there's more sort of desire to explore 1546 00:53:37,532 --> 00:53:39,295 [zaza]: yeah that quote unquote 1547 00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:39,260 [toby_jones]: m 1548 00:53:39,355 --> 00:53:42,421 [zaza]: theory that seem like way too simplistic 1549 00:53:42,272 --> 00:53:45,397 [toby_jones]: yeah i mean that this is the thing of course because the because the mongol 1550 00:53:45,457 --> 00:53:50,225 [toby_jones]: empire is this you know massive thing that that takes place and you know it's 1551 00:53:50,305 --> 00:53:50,425 [toby_jones]: so 1552 00:53:50,543 --> 00:53:50,644 [zaza]: so 1553 00:53:50,726 --> 00:53:55,514 [toby_jones]: let's say shocking to to certain europeans yeah 1554 00:53:55,608 --> 00:53:55,769 [zaza]: yeah 1555 00:53:56,195 --> 00:54:00,202 [toby_jones]: there is a tendency to want to you know and then what what happened you 1556 00:54:00,242 --> 00:54:05,691 [toby_jones]: know and but of course historical processes are quite slow on doesn't always 1557 00:54:05,794 --> 00:54:05,814 [zaza]: a 1558 00:54:05,811 --> 00:54:11,240 [toby_jones]: lead to immediate results that so yeah i mean you could say that that began 1559 00:54:11,194 --> 00:54:12,173 [zaza]: yeah 1560 00:54:11,401 --> 00:54:15,688 [toby_jones]: but doesn't take place for another several hundred years so yeah 1561 00:54:15,774 --> 00:54:15,896 [zaza]: yeah 1562 00:54:16,770 --> 00:54:20,364 [toby_jones]: it's something but yeah there's always there's always other aspects you can talk about to 1563 00:54:21,334 --> 00:54:27,905 [zaza]: how did the mongols manage to conquer all of these vast empires there were like 1564 00:54:27,945 --> 00:54:33,474 [zaza]: different types of armies you know from chinese dynasties to sultan and then we have 1565 00:54:33,654 --> 00:54:34,075 [zaza]: european 1566 00:54:33,990 --> 00:54:34,172 [toby_jones]: oh 1567 00:54:34,276 --> 00:54:36,981 [zaza]: armies but the mongols just conquer 1568 00:54:37,020 --> 00:54:37,361 [toby_jones]: yes 1569 00:54:37,833 --> 00:54:41,679 [zaza]: kind of seemingly at will all of them it seems like in a video game 1570 00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,305 [zaza]: when you're probably like a strategy video game and you just put like cheat codes 1571 00:54:45,385 --> 00:54:49,272 [zaza]: in and then you can defeat anybody with taking no damage it just seems like 1572 00:54:49,332 --> 00:54:50,055 [zaza]: that was 1573 00:54:50,020 --> 00:54:50,243 [toby_jones]: yeah 1574 00:54:50,116 --> 00:54:51,227 [zaza]: that happening 1575 00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:56,427 [toby_jones]: yeah i mean i think it's it's you know it's a fallacy to say the 1576 00:54:56,468 --> 00:55:01,296 [toby_jones]: moles never never lost for example they lost they did lose battles they did give 1577 00:55:01,376 --> 00:55:05,603 [toby_jones]: up they were never able to defeat the memo for example and this is partly 1578 00:55:05,683 --> 00:55:09,690 [toby_jones]: to do with the fact that the man looks fought very similarly to them using 1579 00:55:10,050 --> 00:55:13,917 [toby_jones]: horse arches et cetera so that they didn't really end up you know having the 1580 00:55:13,977 --> 00:55:15,940 [toby_jones]: advantage gainst 1581 00:55:15,860 --> 00:55:16,103 [zaza]: again 1582 00:55:17,442 --> 00:55:23,753 [toby_jones]: the best let's say mongul troops are the best for open combat so on the 1583 00:55:23,813 --> 00:55:28,801 [toby_jones]: step so if you meet them in a sort of open area it's it's yeah 1584 00:55:28,882 --> 00:55:31,887 [toby_jones]: it does seem like a cheat code because basically they don't 1585 00:55:31,954 --> 00:55:32,015 [zaza]: do 1586 00:55:33,269 --> 00:55:40,200 [toby_jones]: they just use overwhelming numbers of horse archers who who charge in shoot shoot several 1587 00:55:40,281 --> 00:55:44,668 [toby_jones]: times more over their back and then go back and then get new horses and 1588 00:55:44,708 --> 00:55:48,735 [toby_jones]: do it all again and this is pretty overwhelming for you know 1589 00:55:49,677 --> 00:55:49,819 [zaza]: yeah 1590 00:55:50,097 --> 00:55:50,498 [toby_jones]: slower 1591 00:55:50,423 --> 00:55:50,504 [zaza]: no 1592 00:55:50,898 --> 00:55:53,082 [toby_jones]: forces like fantry or heavy heavily 1593 00:55:53,843 --> 00:55:54,084 [zaza]: oh 1594 00:55:54,304 --> 00:55:55,746 [toby_jones]: armored cavalry but then 1595 00:55:55,833 --> 00:55:55,953 [zaza]: that 1596 00:55:56,047 --> 00:56:01,616 [toby_jones]: the most important thing is adaptability so they they take on the forces of other 1597 00:56:02,177 --> 00:56:07,526 [toby_jones]: groups and use them to attack areas that they are not used to fighting in 1598 00:56:07,626 --> 00:56:08,127 [toby_jones]: for example 1599 00:56:08,096 --> 00:56:08,158 [zaza]: no 1600 00:56:08,207 --> 00:56:14,778 [toby_jones]: so they use chinese nap throwers they use those in iron they use middle eastern 1601 00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:21,670 [toby_jones]: catapult makers to attack cities in china so there's this sort of constant i mean 1602 00:56:21,770 --> 00:56:26,217 [toby_jones]: this goes for most successful empires the romans did the same is that you 1603 00:56:26,203 --> 00:56:26,463 [zaza]: so they 1604 00:56:26,418 --> 00:56:26,538 [toby_jones]: you 1605 00:56:26,583 --> 00:56:27,985 [zaza]: integrate new technologies 1606 00:56:27,881 --> 00:56:28,343 [toby_jones]: integrate 1607 00:56:28,065 --> 00:56:28,867 [zaza]: into their armies 1608 00:56:28,685 --> 00:56:29,208 [toby_jones]: integrate 1609 00:56:28,947 --> 00:56:29,888 [zaza]: like super fast and 1610 00:56:29,953 --> 00:56:30,415 [toby_jones]: adapt 1611 00:56:30,028 --> 00:56:31,411 [zaza]: use them immediately okay 1612 00:56:31,550 --> 00:56:37,139 [toby_jones]: and also let's say the more cynical thing which is to use those troops first 1613 00:56:38,261 --> 00:56:44,391 [toby_jones]: so they would take a city enforce levey up then force the all to join 1614 00:56:44,452 --> 00:56:47,937 [toby_jones]: the army and then use those people from that city to take the next city 1615 00:56:48,038 --> 00:56:49,440 [toby_jones]: down and so they're the 1616 00:56:49,363 --> 00:56:49,443 [zaza]: the 1617 00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:54,709 [toby_jones]: sort of arrow poter going into the next city and then the mongol troops mostly 1618 00:56:54,769 --> 00:56:55,959 [toby_jones]: preserved and so 1619 00:56:56,216 --> 00:56:56,319 [zaza]: oh 1620 00:56:56,930 --> 00:57:00,375 [toby_jones]: yeah i mean there's there's you know many any number of things you can also 1621 00:57:00,516 --> 00:57:03,160 [toby_jones]: argue about let's say the dividedness 1622 00:57:02,913 --> 00:57:02,933 [zaza]: i 1623 00:57:03,260 --> 00:57:07,087 [toby_jones]: of like i was mentioning that the abased califit is already sort of on its 1624 00:57:07,167 --> 00:57:13,016 [toby_jones]: knees the chinese states are not united the song dynasty has been sort of in 1625 00:57:13,097 --> 00:57:17,504 [toby_jones]: retreat from the gin already so you know there's there's a sort of perfect storm 1626 00:57:17,604 --> 00:57:21,711 [toby_jones]: in a sense also in that many of the states around them are not in 1627 00:57:21,811 --> 00:57:27,641 [toby_jones]: particularly good shape themselves so there's a bit of that but yeah the monguls i 1628 00:57:27,721 --> 00:57:34,813 [toby_jones]: think their use of things like discipline and there the postal system which allowed them 1629 00:57:34,735 --> 00:57:34,755 [zaza]: o 1630 00:57:35,113 --> 00:57:40,562 [toby_jones]: to move so quickly or for information to move so quickly really allows 1631 00:57:40,504 --> 00:57:40,524 [zaza]: a 1632 00:57:40,622 --> 00:57:43,627 [toby_jones]: them a tactical advantage and so that's all 1633 00:57:43,696 --> 00:57:43,817 [zaza]: all 1634 00:57:43,708 --> 00:57:47,973 [toby_jones]: of these things combine it's not really any one of these that seems to a 1635 00:57:48,473 --> 00:57:48,756 [zaza]: oh 1636 00:57:48,934 --> 00:57:52,959 [toby_jones]: yeah led to their success but it's really powerful when it all comes together 1637 00:57:52,971 --> 00:57:58,195 [zaza]: yeah was the mongol reputation of utter 1638 00:57:58,800 --> 00:57:59,551 [toby_jones]: oh h 1639 00:58:01,413 --> 00:58:08,284 [zaza]: how should we call it ruthlessness kind of justified or is it largely an invention 1640 00:58:08,665 --> 00:58:12,531 [zaza]: like for example i was reading about the siege of bagdad and the chroniclers 1641 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:12,420 [toby_jones]: oh 1642 00:58:12,651 --> 00:58:19,543 [zaza]: of the time say the rivers ran the tigris ran red with blood and but 1643 00:58:19,643 --> 00:58:24,531 [zaza]: at the same time when the crusaders conquered jerusalem they also said like it was 1644 00:58:25,192 --> 00:58:29,199 [zaza]: you no they were walking through blood because they just killed everybody also you just 1645 00:58:29,259 --> 00:58:35,730 [zaza]: told me that the gin they nailed a guy to a donkey so it was 1646 00:58:36,631 --> 00:58:39,236 [zaza]: where the mongols really so special in this regard 1647 00:58:39,540 --> 00:58:40,009 [toby_jones]: oh 1648 00:58:39,757 --> 00:58:43,325 [zaza]: or where people just surprised that they were so successful and then attributed 1649 00:58:43,112 --> 00:58:43,214 [toby_jones]: oh 1650 00:58:43,445 --> 00:58:45,229 [zaza]: this fruitlessness to them kind 1651 00:58:45,230 --> 00:58:45,432 [toby_jones]: yeah 1652 00:58:45,289 --> 00:58:46,551 [zaza]: of in retrospect 1653 00:58:47,251 --> 00:58:51,637 [toby_jones]: yeah this is i mean i think it's a little both let's say there's there's 1654 00:58:51,737 --> 00:58:54,302 [toby_jones]: they're not yeah they're not 1655 00:58:54,273 --> 00:58:54,555 [zaza]: ah they're 1656 00:58:54,422 --> 00:58:54,702 [toby_jones]: stand 1657 00:58:54,595 --> 00:58:54,676 [zaza]: not 1658 00:58:54,822 --> 00:59:00,051 [toby_jones]: out in that time period for i mean when one captures a city in this 1659 00:59:00,111 --> 00:59:04,819 [toby_jones]: period it's expected that there is sort of basically you decide on an amount of 1660 00:59:04,919 --> 00:59:09,727 [toby_jones]: time that the forces that you've just you know relied on to take the city 1661 00:59:10,088 --> 00:59:15,757 [toby_jones]: can loot and plunder and kill and that is a sort of standard accepted every 1662 00:59:16,298 --> 00:59:22,188 [toby_jones]: every stay does that at that period is that there is this yeah's expectation of 1663 00:59:22,248 --> 00:59:28,699 [toby_jones]: that the monguls are extremely ruthless and they seem to have taken things a bit 1664 00:59:28,859 --> 00:59:30,543 [toby_jones]: further then other states 1665 00:59:30,668 --> 00:59:30,689 [zaza]: a 1666 00:59:31,124 --> 00:59:35,273 [toby_jones]: would do so i mean the sort of total annihilation of a place for example 1667 00:59:35,834 --> 00:59:41,524 [toby_jones]: doesn't seem that common but i think you particularly when it comes to 1668 00:59:41,963 --> 00:59:41,983 [zaza]: m 1669 00:59:43,107 --> 00:59:47,534 [toby_jones]: a city like back dad i mean there's so much symbolism and so much um 1670 00:59:47,755 --> 00:59:53,665 [toby_jones]: you know religious weight about the what has happened there right is that these these 1671 00:59:53,985 --> 00:59:58,873 [toby_jones]: chronicles are written from a isom perspective and this is the destruction of you know 1672 00:59:59,034 --> 01:00:04,403 [toby_jones]: the commander of the faithful and his glorious city right and a lot of these 1673 01:00:04,463 --> 01:00:05,845 [toby_jones]: sources are actually written by 1674 01:00:06,623 --> 01:00:07,433 [zaza]: yeah 1675 01:00:07,408 --> 01:00:12,776 [toby_jones]: the chroniclers from the mamluk period so the big enemies of the mongols so they 1676 01:00:12,817 --> 01:00:13,698 [toby_jones]: have of course 1677 01:00:13,667 --> 01:00:13,929 [zaza]: course 1678 01:00:14,179 --> 01:00:14,499 [toby_jones]: they have 1679 01:00:14,584 --> 01:00:14,645 [zaza]: he 1680 01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:20,329 [toby_jones]: a reason to want to show how bad it is and that also is 1681 01:00:20,353 --> 01:00:20,414 [zaza]: so 1682 01:00:20,389 --> 01:00:20,930 [toby_jones]: a tendency 1683 01:00:20,514 --> 01:00:20,535 [zaza]: i 1684 01:00:21,070 --> 01:00:25,377 [toby_jones]: as i mean you can read in european chronicles but also in the middle east 1685 01:00:25,678 --> 01:00:30,409 [toby_jones]: in persian and arabic i mean you have you know this this idea of how 1686 01:00:30,890 --> 01:00:37,064 [toby_jones]: to make something sound impressive and that's you exaggerate and that doesn't matter they do 1687 01:00:37,104 --> 01:00:41,712 [toby_jones]: that all the i mean the numbers that persian chronicles for example talk about being 1688 01:00:41,772 --> 01:00:46,320 [toby_jones]: killed by the mangle i mean are physically impossible in that period they told they 1689 01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:50,988 [toby_jones]: say you know three million dead in you know the sack of some city in 1690 01:00:51,028 --> 01:00:53,772 [toby_jones]: the middle east and you know it's not possible for that city to have had 1691 01:00:54,113 --> 01:00:59,762 [toby_jones]: three million inhabitants at that time so ou know there are definitely tropes about you 1692 01:00:59,802 --> 01:01:07,335 [toby_jones]: know how it's basically just to show how absolutely devastating these attacks were and so 1693 01:01:07,636 --> 01:01:08,017 [toby_jones]: yeah that 1694 01:01:07,951 --> 01:01:08,092 [zaza]: yeah 1695 01:01:08,137 --> 01:01:13,786 [toby_jones]: there is a sort of because the mongles were so successful and took it to 1696 01:01:13,846 --> 01:01:18,534 [toby_jones]: such to such extent and went further and further and further that yeah of course 1697 01:01:18,935 --> 01:01:23,382 [toby_jones]: the thing is that you have stories not just from one you know one group 1698 01:01:23,442 --> 01:01:29,412 [toby_jones]: of people it's from armenian chronicles say the same european chronicles about the sack of 1699 01:01:29,572 --> 01:01:34,360 [toby_jones]: kiev for example or the novgorod chronicle about some of the attack so in roof 1700 01:01:34,461 --> 01:01:37,546 [toby_jones]: cities chinese chronicles they all say the same thing 1701 01:01:37,966 --> 01:01:38,106 [zaza]: which 1702 01:01:38,107 --> 01:01:38,207 [toby_jones]: and 1703 01:01:38,166 --> 01:01:38,446 [zaza]: is what 1704 01:01:39,209 --> 01:01:42,154 [toby_jones]: which is that these are you know the worst things to have ever happened to 1705 01:01:42,255 --> 01:01:44,158 [toby_jones]: us as people you know and that 1706 01:01:44,053 --> 01:01:46,361 [zaza]: so basically just killing everybody in the city 1707 01:01:46,390 --> 01:01:46,710 [toby_jones]: yeah but 1708 01:01:46,622 --> 01:01:46,703 [zaza]: and 1709 01:01:46,911 --> 01:01:50,877 [toby_jones]: this is this is a thing of course that when you look at it if 1710 01:01:50,937 --> 01:01:55,825 [toby_jones]: you see that hang on the city that they've just talked about as being let's 1711 01:01:55,865 --> 01:02:00,954 [toby_jones]: say wiped out seems to be they're sort of base for the next you know 1712 01:02:01,094 --> 01:02:03,478 [toby_jones]: thirty years i mean cities like bora 1713 01:02:03,244 --> 01:02:03,264 [zaza]: i 1714 01:02:03,578 --> 01:02:08,286 [toby_jones]: and samarkand which are some of the oldest sort of trade hubs of the silk 1715 01:02:08,366 --> 01:02:10,509 [toby_jones]: road so to speak they are 1716 01:02:10,457 --> 01:02:10,879 [zaza]: they are 1717 01:02:11,331 --> 01:02:14,156 [toby_jones]: they continued to be vitally important for the monguls and they're 1718 01:02:14,195 --> 01:02:14,441 [zaza]: there 1719 01:02:14,256 --> 01:02:18,663 [toby_jones]: the sort of biggest yeah source of revenue and so 1720 01:02:18,905 --> 01:02:19,028 [zaza]: oh 1721 01:02:19,404 --> 01:02:20,246 [toby_jones]: if they were completely 1722 01:02:19,873 --> 01:02:20,959 [zaza]: were 1723 01:02:20,306 --> 01:02:23,651 [toby_jones]: destroyed this could they couldn't be used as you know 1724 01:02:23,803 --> 01:02:23,863 [zaza]: no 1725 01:02:23,872 --> 01:02:28,279 [toby_jones]: and utostalke about you know even later they'll say the same city was besieged and 1726 01:02:28,359 --> 01:02:31,645 [toby_jones]: similar numbers of people were killed you're thinking but if they were all killed ten 1727 01:02:31,705 --> 01:02:36,613 [toby_jones]: years before that's not really possible right till ye there's always a bit of hyperbathat 1728 01:02:36,653 --> 01:02:37,234 [toby_jones]: you can never 1729 01:02:37,385 --> 01:02:37,509 [zaza]: for 1730 01:02:38,156 --> 01:02:42,563 [toby_jones]: under estimate that but of course the mongols i mean we do have this information 1731 01:02:42,643 --> 01:02:47,772 [toby_jones]: from all sorts of sources so you can't ever say that they were yeah that 1732 01:02:47,812 --> 01:02:52,499 [toby_jones]: they were not ruthless or that they didn't destroy a lot so yeah 1733 01:02:52,664 --> 01:02:52,825 [zaza]: yeah 1734 01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,306 [toby_jones]: there's this sort of the game that these chronicles are playing 1735 01:02:56,303 --> 01:03:00,083 [zaza]: yeah 1736 01:02:57,067 --> 01:03:02,256 [toby_jones]: and that's trying to show yeah the sort of the absolute devastation that took place 1737 01:03:02,837 --> 01:03:04,720 [toby_jones]: but taking them literally 1738 01:03:04,553 --> 01:03:04,938 [zaza]: literally 1739 01:03:05,100 --> 01:03:09,368 [toby_jones]: is much more difficult and you do have to be quite circumspect when you when 1740 01:03:09,428 --> 01:03:14,333 [toby_jones]: you when you look at the numbers or look at the phrasing the rivers red 1741 01:03:14,373 --> 01:03:17,917 [toby_jones]: with blood and things like that so i mean we do have for the sake 1742 01:03:17,977 --> 01:03:20,901 [toby_jones]: of bagdad for example we have sources written 1743 01:03:20,925 --> 01:03:20,946 [zaza]: i 1744 01:03:21,402 --> 01:03:21,903 [toby_jones]: much later 1745 01:03:21,954 --> 01:03:22,155 [zaza]: later 1746 01:03:22,524 --> 01:03:27,396 [toby_jones]: and sources written at the time by people involved and the people writing at the 1747 01:03:27,436 --> 01:03:31,964 [toby_jones]: time who are involved say that they killed for you know three days or something 1748 01:03:31,985 --> 01:03:32,726 [toby_jones]: like that so they don't 1749 01:03:32,744 --> 01:03:32,946 [zaza]: don't 1750 01:03:32,826 --> 01:03:35,390 [toby_jones]: hide that fact it's not you know but that 1751 01:03:35,484 --> 01:03:35,605 [zaza]: that 1752 01:03:35,490 --> 01:03:35,971 [toby_jones]: is normal 1753 01:03:35,705 --> 01:03:35,786 [zaza]: is 1754 01:03:36,091 --> 01:03:40,218 [toby_jones]: like i was saying earlier it's that i was expected a lot of the forces 1755 01:03:40,298 --> 01:03:46,128 [toby_jones]: that were used capture bagdad were christians and she is as well so there's this 1756 01:03:46,228 --> 01:03:47,510 [toby_jones]: sort of yeah this sort 1757 01:03:47,423 --> 01:03:47,604 [zaza]: this 1758 01:03:47,550 --> 01:03:51,938 [toby_jones]: of resentment of the sunny power that has been held over them for for a 1759 01:03:51,978 --> 01:03:52,479 [toby_jones]: long time 1760 01:03:52,572 --> 01:03:52,592 [zaza]: i 1761 01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:58,228 [toby_jones]: the georgian armenian chronicles for example absolutely thrilled about the sack of bagdad and they 1762 01:03:58,268 --> 01:04:01,494 [toby_jones]: are you know very glad to be taking part so yeah there 1763 01:04:01,364 --> 01:04:01,708 [zaza]: yeah the 1764 01:04:01,554 --> 01:04:05,260 [toby_jones]: is this sort of yeah there's of course you always have to think also the 1765 01:04:06,242 --> 01:04:10,869 [toby_jones]: the bias of the authors who are trying to show one thing or another so 1766 01:04:10,969 --> 01:04:11,090 [toby_jones]: yeah 1767 01:04:11,183 --> 01:04:11,304 [zaza]: yeah 1768 01:04:11,250 --> 01:04:15,617 [toby_jones]: that's it's it's a game that is always played by by those chroniclers and one 1769 01:04:15,657 --> 01:04:17,241 [toby_jones]: that we have to try and play well 1770 01:04:18,396 --> 01:04:24,847 [zaza]: can we once and for all clarify the often quoted statistic that you find everywhere 1771 01:04:25,267 --> 01:04:30,577 [zaza]: when you i mean at least in popular sources that on go conquest reduced the 1772 01:04:30,617 --> 01:04:31,539 [zaza]: world's population 1773 01:04:31,260 --> 01:04:31,481 [toby_jones]: yeah 1774 01:04:31,660 --> 01:04:36,470 [zaza]: by something about like ten percent or something crazy like that where where does this 1775 01:04:36,511 --> 01:04:36,831 [zaza]: come from 1776 01:04:38,161 --> 01:04:42,368 [toby_jones]: yeah i mean this comes from i would say the sources that i've just been 1777 01:04:42,408 --> 01:04:43,309 [toby_jones]: mentioning um 1778 01:04:43,183 --> 01:04:43,385 [zaza]: okay 1779 01:04:44,031 --> 01:04:44,251 [toby_jones]: and i 1780 01:04:44,384 --> 01:04:44,404 [zaza]: i 1781 01:04:44,451 --> 01:04:48,698 [toby_jones]: don't the problem is that you can't know i mean you can't know the numbers 1782 01:04:48,819 --> 01:04:54,313 [toby_jones]: really in that that's really does provide you with some difficulties because you can't ever 1783 01:04:54,473 --> 01:04:59,258 [toby_jones]: say how many you know of course what regularly happened is that the mongols would 1784 01:04:59,318 --> 01:05:01,871 [toby_jones]: conquer a city kill those 1785 01:05:01,834 --> 01:05:01,915 [zaza]: no 1786 01:05:02,432 --> 01:05:05,938 [toby_jones]: who you know were let's say soldiers or had actively 1787 01:05:05,738 --> 01:05:05,758 [zaza]: a 1788 01:05:05,998 --> 01:05:10,946 [toby_jones]: fought them and then they would take people away also that they often 1789 01:05:10,883 --> 01:05:13,013 [zaza]: oh 1790 01:05:11,046 --> 01:05:13,230 [toby_jones]: took craftsmen and uh 1791 01:05:13,043 --> 01:05:13,433 [zaza]: uh 1792 01:05:13,771 --> 01:05:18,499 [toby_jones]: artizans they took them let's say back to mongolia or move them to china and 1793 01:05:18,539 --> 01:05:20,382 [toby_jones]: things like that so gade 1794 01:05:20,363 --> 01:05:20,464 [zaza]: good 1795 01:05:20,522 --> 01:05:24,128 [toby_jones]: was the first to build a city the first mongol ruler to build a city 1796 01:05:24,569 --> 01:05:29,484 [toby_jones]: he built capital of karakorum in the twelve thirties and he used of course a 1797 01:05:29,524 --> 01:05:34,492 [toby_jones]: lot of the artisans and craftsmen that he had taken the monguls had taken from 1798 01:05:34,612 --> 01:05:40,943 [toby_jones]: their capture captures of northern china and of yeah much of the middle east and 1799 01:05:41,043 --> 01:05:42,606 [toby_jones]: so you know yes 1800 01:05:42,653 --> 01:05:42,833 [zaza]: yes 1801 01:05:42,806 --> 01:05:46,633 [toby_jones]: you could say that the cities also probably were you know changed quite a lot 1802 01:05:46,713 --> 01:05:51,461 [toby_jones]: by that in the sense that maybe they wouldn't have been completely destroyed but if 1803 01:05:51,501 --> 01:05:56,529 [toby_jones]: you take away a lot of the important yeah the important members of that city 1804 01:05:56,970 --> 01:06:00,976 [toby_jones]: then there may be a sort of lull and you do see that certain cities 1805 01:06:01,077 --> 01:06:08,445 [toby_jones]: for example seem to ve gone down quite drastically after the mongrel invasions so yeah 1806 01:06:08,507 --> 01:06:08,668 [zaza]: yeah 1807 01:06:08,925 --> 01:06:11,948 [toby_jones]: and then also one of the more interesting things at least when it comes to 1808 01:06:12,008 --> 01:06:18,647 [toby_jones]: the middle east and this is much talked about things the the destruction of irrigation 1809 01:06:18,747 --> 01:06:26,359 [toby_jones]: canals so of course much of the middle east is not you know that human 1810 01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,086 [toby_jones]: not that wet so you you make use of what are called kanats o these 1811 01:06:30,266 --> 01:06:33,692 [toby_jones]: underground irrigation canals and they really 1812 01:06:33,739 --> 01:06:33,860 [zaza]: all 1813 01:06:33,772 --> 01:06:41,044 [toby_jones]: did help to you know keep that area fertilized and irrigated and the monguls did 1814 01:06:41,324 --> 01:06:45,491 [toby_jones]: destroy some of these intentionally we do have information about that but also 1815 01:06:45,575 --> 01:06:45,677 [zaza]: so 1816 01:06:45,932 --> 01:06:48,576 [toby_jones]: they of course killed many of the people who took care of them and they 1817 01:06:48,637 --> 01:06:50,920 [toby_jones]: need constant upkeep there 1818 01:06:50,999 --> 01:06:51,120 [zaza]: there 1819 01:06:51,041 --> 01:06:51,241 [toby_jones]: is a 1820 01:06:51,242 --> 01:06:51,364 [zaza]: is 1821 01:06:51,301 --> 01:06:55,708 [toby_jones]: belief by with among some that the monguls irrevocably 1822 01:06:55,545 --> 01:06:56,543 [zaza]: oh 1823 01:06:55,768 --> 01:06:57,612 [toby_jones]: changed this sort of climate there 1824 01:06:57,623 --> 01:06:59,693 [zaza]: yeah 1825 01:06:57,872 --> 01:07:04,127 [toby_jones]: or the the because of the way that they acted and without this constant protection 1826 01:07:04,670 --> 01:07:04,790 [toby_jones]: of 1827 01:07:04,934 --> 01:07:05,822 [zaza]: he 1828 01:07:05,313 --> 01:07:11,397 [toby_jones]: this irrigation then it sort of fell apart and we do have um let's say 1829 01:07:11,918 --> 01:07:16,866 [toby_jones]: geographers who travelled in that area before the mongols who said it was very fertile 1830 01:07:16,926 --> 01:07:20,813 [toby_jones]: very green and then geographers off who say you know it's been it's been destroyed 1831 01:07:21,133 --> 01:07:22,896 [toby_jones]: and things like that so you know 1832 01:07:23,074 --> 01:07:23,175 [zaza]: oh 1833 01:07:23,537 --> 01:07:27,764 [toby_jones]: it's hard to yeah they might not even have known what they were doing some 1834 01:07:27,804 --> 01:07:32,933 [toby_jones]: cases some cases they clearly did know and are trying you know m yeah use 1835 01:07:32,973 --> 01:07:37,060 [toby_jones]: this sort of psychological warfare to become successful so yeah 1836 01:07:37,143 --> 01:07:37,263 [zaza]: yeah 1837 01:07:37,641 --> 01:07:43,293 [toby_jones]: that can never bee known but they certainly were extremely devastating that's yeah that's without 1838 01:07:43,353 --> 01:07:43,535 [toby_jones]: doubt 1839 01:07:44,513 --> 01:07:48,941 [zaza]: h m you mentioned that there was a woman ruling in between i don't know 1840 01:07:48,981 --> 01:07:53,749 [zaza]: which period exactly where we're talking about after jingiskan i think what was the role 1841 01:07:53,909 --> 01:07:56,273 [zaza]: of women in mongol society and household and 1842 01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:56,360 [toby_jones]: ye 1843 01:07:56,334 --> 01:07:57,559 [zaza]: immobile could they be 1844 01:07:58,586 --> 01:07:58,666 [toby_jones]: see 1845 01:07:58,593 --> 01:07:58,874 [zaza]: especially 1846 01:07:58,726 --> 01:07:58,806 [toby_jones]: the 1847 01:07:58,894 --> 01:08:00,240 [zaza]: if we compare them to like i don't know 1848 01:08:00,540 --> 01:08:00,803 [toby_jones]: oh 1849 01:08:00,762 --> 01:08:02,088 [zaza]: medieval europe or 1850 01:08:02,110 --> 01:08:07,495 [toby_jones]: ah so this is actually something that i'm planning to research a bit more in 1851 01:08:07,535 --> 01:08:14,552 [toby_jones]: the future and that's the social mobility aspect but there's been more and more studies 1852 01:08:14,612 --> 01:08:17,537 [toby_jones]: about mongol women but yeah there 1853 01:08:17,375 --> 01:08:20,303 [zaza]: yeah 1854 01:08:18,358 --> 01:08:24,488 [toby_jones]: were particularly a few who became extremely powerful and this would be one was called 1855 01:08:24,528 --> 01:08:29,140 [toby_jones]: to gen tom so cartoon is the sort of equivalent to con it's the female 1856 01:08:30,966 --> 01:08:31,768 [toby_jones]: the elite woman 1857 01:08:32,683 --> 01:08:33,005 [zaza]: chinks 1858 01:08:32,773 --> 01:08:32,895 [toby_jones]: and 1859 01:08:33,085 --> 01:08:33,468 [zaza]: hatton 1860 01:08:34,390 --> 01:08:36,574 [toby_jones]: no that doesn't exist sadly but it's 1861 01:08:36,499 --> 01:08:36,740 [zaza]: okay 1862 01:08:38,076 --> 01:08:38,597 [toby_jones]: their wives 1863 01:08:38,606 --> 01:08:38,626 [zaza]: i 1864 01:08:38,637 --> 01:08:38,777 [toby_jones]: were 1865 01:08:38,746 --> 01:08:39,007 [zaza]: tried 1866 01:08:38,817 --> 01:08:39,679 [toby_jones]: given that title 1867 01:08:39,549 --> 01:08:40,652 [zaza]: yeah 1868 01:08:40,260 --> 01:08:46,069 [toby_jones]: when they when they married and so after ogade's death so in in twelve forty 1869 01:08:46,510 --> 01:08:54,884 [toby_jones]: his wife torigni ruled as regent for five years and then after his wife did 1870 01:08:54,845 --> 01:08:55,027 [zaza]: what 1871 01:08:54,904 --> 01:09:00,193 [toby_jones]: the same and that also took place in some of the successor states of the 1872 01:09:00,233 --> 01:09:01,395 [toby_jones]: monguls and so 1873 01:09:01,513 --> 01:09:01,594 [zaza]: so 1874 01:09:01,535 --> 01:09:05,782 [toby_jones]: you had quite often there would be women who ruled let's say on their own 1875 01:09:06,323 --> 01:09:07,225 [toby_jones]: but they were also 1876 01:09:07,063 --> 01:09:07,427 [zaza]: we're also 1877 01:09:07,405 --> 01:09:10,951 [toby_jones]: key part of the cool tie as i was saying it's just i don't know 1878 01:09:10,991 --> 01:09:13,796 [toby_jones]: why my computer is deciding to try and update everything 1879 01:09:13,693 --> 01:09:13,713 [zaza]: a 1880 01:09:13,876 --> 01:09:13,996 [toby_jones]: now 1881 01:09:14,895 --> 01:09:15,076 [zaza]: great 1882 01:09:15,018 --> 01:09:19,004 [toby_jones]: but now so they were a key part of these of these you know the 1883 01:09:19,185 --> 01:09:25,314 [toby_jones]: meetings and discussions about policy making policy conquest all these sorts of things and so 1884 01:09:25,434 --> 01:09:25,517 [zaza]: so 1885 01:09:25,875 --> 01:09:26,275 [toby_jones]: they have a 1886 01:09:26,263 --> 01:09:26,423 [zaza]: have 1887 01:09:26,676 --> 01:09:33,436 [toby_jones]: very important role within the empire itself and this is linked to their role in 1888 01:09:33,496 --> 01:09:39,066 [toby_jones]: society in that and mongol let's say noumatic society they have a very important role 1889 01:09:39,546 --> 01:09:44,795 [toby_jones]: in maintaining the camps themselve and so this is a common thing that happened when 1890 01:09:44,996 --> 01:09:48,441 [toby_jones]: the the hans went on campaign is their wives 1891 01:09:48,375 --> 01:09:48,477 [zaza]: why 1892 01:09:48,481 --> 01:09:51,627 [toby_jones]: would maintain the camp while they were gone and so 1893 01:09:51,833 --> 01:09:52,013 [zaza]: oh 1894 01:09:51,927 --> 01:09:55,253 [toby_jones]: they had this sort of standing role in particular that's 1895 01:09:55,073 --> 01:09:56,243 [zaza]: yeah 1896 01:09:55,794 --> 01:10:01,002 [toby_jones]: the key thing is that you wouldn't really have gotten one to be chosen as 1897 01:10:01,543 --> 01:10:06,772 [toby_jones]: the ruler but in this sort of standing role they consist they do that job 1898 01:10:08,054 --> 01:10:14,004 [toby_jones]: and in later societies or later states that they continue to have this this role 1899 01:10:14,425 --> 01:10:18,732 [toby_jones]: and that's not just a mongol thing that's that's much more common both turkish and 1900 01:10:18,812 --> 01:10:23,331 [toby_jones]: mongul states that women have a sort of more let's say visible 1901 01:10:23,304 --> 01:10:23,527 [zaza]: to 1902 01:10:24,133 --> 01:10:26,557 [toby_jones]: power because of course women always 1903 01:10:26,559 --> 01:10:26,579 [zaza]: a 1904 01:10:27,118 --> 01:10:30,563 [toby_jones]: no matter the society do influence power but in other 1905 01:10:30,614 --> 01:10:30,776 [zaza]: the 1906 01:10:31,345 --> 01:10:34,911 [toby_jones]: regions let's say in europe or the atlantic world a little 1907 01:10:34,943 --> 01:10:35,064 [zaza]: it 1908 01:10:34,971 --> 01:10:37,795 [toby_jones]: bit more so let's say from you know from behind the 1909 01:10:37,754 --> 01:10:37,775 [zaza]: i 1910 01:10:37,835 --> 01:10:43,645 [toby_jones]: scenes where as in the mongol world in the turkish world it very very out 1911 01:10:43,705 --> 01:10:44,567 [toby_jones]: there and this 1912 01:10:44,458 --> 01:10:44,678 [zaza]: okay 1913 01:10:44,747 --> 01:10:45,929 [toby_jones]: is quite shocking to 1914 01:10:46,282 --> 01:10:46,403 [zaza]: right 1915 01:10:46,350 --> 01:10:51,218 [toby_jones]: many of historians who are writing about that of course because they're not used to 1916 01:10:51,458 --> 01:10:55,505 [toby_jones]: seeing women you know take the main stage and of course this 1917 01:10:55,406 --> 01:10:55,506 [zaza]: our 1918 01:10:55,585 --> 01:10:59,852 [toby_jones]: does lead to quite some very negative portrayals of them and so yeah that's another 1919 01:10:59,973 --> 01:11:03,238 [toby_jones]: game you have to sort of play with the sources is figuring out you know 1920 01:11:03,399 --> 01:11:07,386 [toby_jones]: what of it is true and what of it is just simply a misogynistic bias 1921 01:11:07,934 --> 01:11:08,315 [zaza]: okay what 1922 01:11:08,228 --> 01:11:08,648 [toby_jones]: from people 1923 01:11:08,515 --> 01:11:09,978 [zaza]: but what were they saying for example 1924 01:11:10,500 --> 01:11:15,468 [toby_jones]: you know so torigni was accused of of you know of basically getting rid of 1925 01:11:15,509 --> 01:11:19,916 [toby_jones]: the ministers of her of her husband when she took power and you think okay 1926 01:11:19,956 --> 01:11:21,659 [toby_jones]: that's also the prerogative of a ruler 1927 01:11:21,451 --> 01:11:21,913 [zaza]: of a ruler 1928 01:11:21,719 --> 01:11:21,879 [toby_jones]: right 1929 01:11:22,174 --> 01:11:23,942 [zaza]: yeah 1930 01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:24,223 [toby_jones]: yeah and so what if that 1931 01:11:24,104 --> 01:11:24,124 [zaza]: i 1932 01:11:24,423 --> 01:11:29,973 [toby_jones]: is negative and what of that is just simply what was expected and so because 1933 01:11:30,093 --> 01:11:33,438 [toby_jones]: this that a lot of the sources most of the sources that we have 1934 01:11:33,323 --> 01:11:33,603 [zaza]: yeah 1935 01:11:33,979 --> 01:11:40,450 [toby_jones]: are coming from societies in which women do not have this very forward role there 1936 01:11:40,530 --> 01:11:44,537 [toby_jones]: tends to be a very negative portrayal of them so in the cell 1937 01:11:45,323 --> 01:11:45,983 [zaza]: yeah 1938 01:11:45,879 --> 01:11:50,547 [toby_jones]: sort for example there is a very famous vizier nzamamok who wrote a book called 1939 01:11:50,567 --> 01:11:50,707 [toby_jones]: the c 1940 01:11:50,973 --> 01:11:51,135 [zaza]: yes 1941 01:11:52,009 --> 01:11:55,876 [toby_jones]: o the book of politics and he has a whole chapter devoted to women should 1942 01:11:55,936 --> 01:12:00,564 [toby_jones]: not be in politics because they ruin ever thing and this is because of course 1943 01:12:00,844 --> 01:12:02,747 [toby_jones]: his the shah 1944 01:12:02,824 --> 01:12:03,005 [zaza]: ah 1945 01:12:02,827 --> 01:12:07,776 [toby_jones]: that he was the ruler that he was working for maliksha his wife ter and 1946 01:12:07,836 --> 01:12:11,181 [toby_jones]: cartoon had a lot of power and so you can sort of see why 1947 01:12:11,374 --> 01:12:11,394 [zaza]: i 1948 01:12:11,802 --> 01:12:15,569 [toby_jones]: he's doing this and this this happens in the mongul period as well is that 1949 01:12:15,609 --> 01:12:15,809 [toby_jones]: there's 1950 01:12:15,805 --> 01:12:15,947 [zaza]: the 1951 01:12:15,890 --> 01:12:22,751 [toby_jones]: this sort of yeah this reaction against the female rule that happens um and the 1952 01:12:22,891 --> 01:12:28,120 [toby_jones]: social mobility thing is a little bit yeah it's an interesting one and what i'm 1953 01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,065 [toby_jones]: sort of looking towards in the future but yeah it does 1954 01:12:30,974 --> 01:12:31,035 [zaza]: it 1955 01:12:31,125 --> 01:12:34,831 [toby_jones]: happen as well you do have women who sort of start at a lower level 1956 01:12:35,372 --> 01:12:36,093 [toby_jones]: getting to a higher 1957 01:12:36,064 --> 01:12:36,227 [zaza]: high 1958 01:12:36,153 --> 01:12:41,382 [toby_jones]: level and becoming cartoons becoming sort of wives of hans but there 1959 01:12:41,443 --> 01:12:41,603 [zaza]: the 1960 01:12:41,462 --> 01:12:47,353 [toby_jones]: is also a very important hierarchy among women too this is very key in mongol 1961 01:12:47,413 --> 01:12:52,544 [toby_jones]: societies they're very aware of which woman is the for example the chief wife that 1962 01:12:52,665 --> 01:12:58,325 [toby_jones]: woman has the sort of power among that among the women she's the most prestigious 1963 01:12:58,405 --> 01:13:02,732 [toby_jones]: et cetera so there's always this idea that one woman sort of stands above the 1964 01:13:02,793 --> 01:13:04,676 [toby_jones]: rest but yeah 1965 01:13:04,643 --> 01:13:04,764 [zaza]: yeah 1966 01:13:04,756 --> 01:13:10,876 [toby_jones]: that's one of the sort of weirdly negative things about let's say negative at least 1967 01:13:11,176 --> 01:13:15,905 [toby_jones]: what we would think of as negative is the tradition of leverett marriage and this 1968 01:13:16,005 --> 01:13:20,342 [toby_jones]: is the fact that a men's wives 1969 01:13:20,071 --> 01:13:20,375 [zaza]: wife 1970 01:13:21,590 --> 01:13:26,999 [toby_jones]: would go to his son when he died so the son would marry the wives 1971 01:13:27,059 --> 01:13:28,842 [toby_jones]: of his father apart from his own mother 1972 01:13:29,483 --> 01:13:29,790 [zaza]: oh 1973 01:13:30,705 --> 01:13:34,491 [toby_jones]: after his father died and so that happened very rag and again this is something 1974 01:13:34,531 --> 01:13:39,976 [toby_jones]: which is quite yeah freaky let's say to the to the to the chroniclers who 1975 01:13:40,036 --> 01:13:42,078 [toby_jones]: wrote about it and they were a bit shocked by this 1976 01:13:43,693 --> 01:13:49,542 [zaza]: um could could women also be warriors sometimes or was that not very likely 1977 01:13:50,212 --> 01:13:56,885 [toby_jones]: um so there's there's less used as warriors as pretend warriors so there is 1978 01:13:56,843 --> 01:13:57,003 [zaza]: the 1979 01:13:56,965 --> 01:14:00,892 [toby_jones]: an idea that they were put on horses and because the so that their hats 1980 01:14:01,012 --> 01:14:06,241 [toby_jones]: were quite tall they looked like warriors at least one of the european corner it 1981 01:14:06,321 --> 01:14:11,470 [toby_jones]: says that from afar they all looked like warriors and so because they dressed quite 1982 01:14:11,630 --> 01:14:13,493 [toby_jones]: similarly otherwise and so they were 1983 01:14:13,453 --> 01:14:13,513 [zaza]: the 1984 01:14:13,593 --> 01:14:18,982 [toby_jones]: often used to sort of create a fake idea of mongul strength but on 1985 01:14:18,955 --> 01:14:19,075 [zaza]: like 1986 01:14:19,062 --> 01:14:19,182 [toby_jones]: the 1987 01:14:19,136 --> 01:14:19,637 [zaza]: a decoy 1988 01:14:19,263 --> 01:14:19,503 [toby_jones]: whole 1989 01:14:19,837 --> 01:14:20,278 [zaza]: or something 1990 01:14:20,064 --> 01:14:25,112 [toby_jones]: yeah yes on the whole they were not warriors now there there are a few 1991 01:14:25,172 --> 01:14:30,846 [toby_jones]: exceptions but it tends to be that they yea they probably no problem taking up 1992 01:14:30,947 --> 01:14:32,092 [toby_jones]: arms if they needed to but 1993 01:14:32,445 --> 01:14:33,113 [zaza]: hm 1994 01:14:34,730 --> 01:14:34,812 [toby_jones]: ay 1995 01:14:34,954 --> 01:14:37,118 [zaza]: which cliches that we hold about 1996 01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:37,467 [toby_jones]: uh 1997 01:14:37,198 --> 01:14:38,040 [zaza]: the mongols are 1998 01:14:38,259 --> 01:14:38,280 [toby_jones]: h 1999 01:14:38,300 --> 01:14:44,270 [zaza]: inaccurate and should be dispelled or maybe which aspects of their society are often overlooked 2000 01:14:44,931 --> 01:14:48,221 [zaza]: so we can keep king about the you know mongols as the bogie man 2001 01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:50,211 [toby_jones]: yeah yeah i mean 2002 01:14:50,126 --> 01:14:50,229 [zaza]: oh 2003 01:14:50,292 --> 01:14:51,714 [toby_jones]: i think well we've already mentioned a 2004 01:14:51,704 --> 01:14:51,806 [zaza]: to 2005 01:14:51,794 --> 01:14:58,225 [toby_jones]: few for sure i mean the destructiveness or the barbaric aspects these are things that 2006 01:14:58,846 --> 01:15:03,293 [toby_jones]: when you look at them in more detail you end up figuring out that okay 2007 01:15:03,333 --> 01:15:06,779 [toby_jones]: there's a lot of there's a lot of things that need to be explored more 2008 01:15:06,839 --> 01:15:08,943 [toby_jones]: and i think that's sort of part 2009 01:15:08,797 --> 01:15:08,879 [zaza]: so 2010 01:15:08,983 --> 01:15:13,755 [toby_jones]: of it is just seceding the monguls this sort of yeah unstop will force that 2011 01:15:13,795 --> 01:15:21,038 [toby_jones]: just appears and disappears is really something that we should stop thinking because of course 2012 01:15:21,178 --> 01:15:28,230 [toby_jones]: they say the united empire does disappear quite quickly but then you have these these 2013 01:15:28,290 --> 01:15:34,060 [toby_jones]: conies which continue to rule in different parts of eurasia huge empires in and of 2014 01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:35,823 [toby_jones]: themselves and some 2015 01:15:35,834 --> 01:15:35,975 [zaza]: some 2016 01:15:35,863 --> 01:15:42,634 [toby_jones]: of them lost for centuries you know and their descend s are still around i 2017 01:15:42,694 --> 01:15:46,220 [toby_jones]: mean i was mentioning tatar stan for example and other 2018 01:15:46,243 --> 01:15:46,323 [zaza]: the 2019 01:15:46,661 --> 01:15:51,288 [toby_jones]: you know other parts of eurasia in which this is still a very important thing 2020 01:15:52,010 --> 01:15:52,150 [toby_jones]: what 2021 01:15:52,164 --> 01:15:52,306 [zaza]: what 2022 01:15:53,515 --> 01:15:59,732 [toby_jones]: essentially happens is after all of even after all of these hingisid state so so 2023 01:16:00,032 --> 01:16:05,161 [toby_jones]: states ruled by descendants of chingascan disappear there's a great respect for 2024 01:16:05,897 --> 01:16:07,193 [zaza]: a yeah 2025 01:16:06,643 --> 01:16:13,495 [toby_jones]: the chingasid lineage and people try and make sure that they are honouring that when 2026 01:16:13,575 --> 01:16:20,146 [toby_jones]: they start their their own sort of conquest so there's a later ruler timor you 2027 01:16:20,186 --> 01:16:25,820 [toby_jones]: may have heard of tamerlane he's known often in europe who conquered essentially much of 2028 01:16:25,900 --> 01:16:32,303 [toby_jones]: the middle east central asia he sacked delly defeated the ottomans et cetera he was 2029 01:16:32,403 --> 01:16:36,188 [toby_jones]: not a change city was not descended from changes but in 2030 01:16:36,314 --> 01:16:36,495 [zaza]: didn't 2031 01:16:36,328 --> 01:16:36,528 [toby_jones]: order 2032 01:16:36,535 --> 01:16:36,977 [zaza]: he claim 2033 01:16:36,708 --> 01:16:36,848 [toby_jones]: to 2034 01:16:37,097 --> 01:16:38,442 [zaza]: that he had some connection 2035 01:16:38,330 --> 01:16:38,551 [toby_jones]: well 2036 01:16:38,503 --> 01:16:39,025 [zaza]: to changes 2037 01:16:38,751 --> 01:16:41,696 [toby_jones]: that was done later by his by his descendants but he 2038 01:16:41,655 --> 01:16:42,017 [zaza]: all right 2039 01:16:42,658 --> 01:16:48,598 [toby_jones]: he married into the changed family he married chingesid princesses and then he was able 2040 01:16:48,678 --> 01:16:52,985 [toby_jones]: to take this sort of honorable title of god gain son in law and he 2041 01:16:53,145 --> 01:16:57,673 [toby_jones]: used chingsid puppets to sort of egitimize his rule and this 2042 01:16:57,863 --> 01:16:57,883 [zaza]: i 2043 01:16:57,893 --> 01:17:02,240 [toby_jones]: happened quite often and among a number of states and so yeah this 2044 01:17:02,113 --> 01:17:02,254 [zaza]: yeah 2045 01:17:02,300 --> 01:17:07,148 [toby_jones]: sort of legacy of the monguls but also things like yeah like i was saying 2046 01:17:07,229 --> 01:17:13,699 [toby_jones]: about this sort interconnectedness is that there's seems to have been more sort of connections 2047 01:17:14,060 --> 01:17:15,843 [toby_jones]: that continued to exist 2048 01:17:15,902 --> 01:17:15,923 [zaza]: h 2049 01:17:16,764 --> 01:17:18,908 [toby_jones]: between different parts of the world after 2050 01:17:18,876 --> 01:17:18,957 [zaza]: no 2051 01:17:18,948 --> 01:17:20,491 [toby_jones]: the monguls and so yeah at 2052 01:17:20,463 --> 01:17:20,583 [zaza]: yeah 2053 01:17:20,531 --> 01:17:23,736 [toby_jones]: the idea that they were a sort of barbarian invader 2054 01:17:24,593 --> 01:17:24,876 [zaza]: oh 2055 01:17:25,098 --> 01:17:30,588 [toby_jones]: and didn't have any lasting effect beyond that is one that should be very quickly 2056 01:17:30,628 --> 01:17:35,857 [toby_jones]: dispelled because have a huge impact mean you should expect it right with an empire 2057 01:17:35,937 --> 01:17:39,985 [toby_jones]: that big but some some of the ways in which they had a really huge 2058 01:17:40,085 --> 01:17:46,066 [toby_jones]: impact or somewhat quite interesting and they're not always in ways that you would expect 2059 01:17:46,287 --> 01:17:54,161 [toby_jones]: i mean even in countries like russia and china today you know they they remember 2060 01:17:54,221 --> 01:17:55,663 [toby_jones]: this heritage the mongul 2061 01:17:55,663 --> 01:17:55,723 [zaza]: we 2062 01:17:55,703 --> 01:17:57,505 [toby_jones]: heritage is quite negative but 2063 01:17:57,473 --> 01:17:59,843 [zaza]: yeah 2064 01:17:57,585 --> 01:18:04,306 [toby_jones]: also as a moment in which they sort of became unified so the mongols are 2065 01:18:04,546 --> 01:18:07,731 [toby_jones]: sort of famed and china for uniting china even though 2066 01:18:07,793 --> 01:18:07,894 [zaza]: oh 2067 01:18:08,413 --> 01:18:12,359 [toby_jones]: they were not chinese themselves they actually brought all of almost all of what is 2068 01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:16,045 [toby_jones]: more and they china together and this has not been the case for for for 2069 01:18:16,145 --> 01:18:21,014 [toby_jones]: many ever really and in russia is the same is that even though the monguls 2070 01:18:21,034 --> 01:18:27,224 [toby_jones]: were extremely devastating in russia they ended up support ting the city of muscovy and 2071 01:18:27,344 --> 01:18:29,528 [toby_jones]: supporting the orthodox church and these 2072 01:18:29,513 --> 01:18:29,675 [zaza]: the 2073 01:18:29,588 --> 01:18:36,079 [toby_jones]: were the two sort of basic you know pillars of the later russian empire and 2074 01:18:36,179 --> 01:18:36,299 [toby_jones]: so 2075 01:18:36,303 --> 01:18:36,403 [zaza]: so 2076 01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:36,840 [toby_jones]: yeah 2077 01:18:36,824 --> 01:18:36,964 [zaza]: yeah 2078 01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:44,433 [toby_jones]: there's a sort of very interesting dynamic between nation state building and the monguls where 2079 01:18:44,473 --> 01:18:47,117 [toby_jones]: they're often thought of in extremely negative terms 2080 01:18:46,943 --> 01:18:47,663 [zaza]: yeah 2081 01:18:47,818 --> 01:18:49,741 [toby_jones]: but they manage 2082 01:18:49,663 --> 01:18:49,743 [zaza]: and 2083 01:18:49,862 --> 01:18:58,316 [toby_jones]: to have this very yeah influential relationship that that tends to show show itself in 2084 01:18:58,396 --> 01:18:58,917 [toby_jones]: weird ways 2085 01:18:58,839 --> 01:18:59,003 [zaza]: it 2086 01:18:59,357 --> 01:18:59,818 [toby_jones]: and so yeah 2087 01:18:59,834 --> 01:18:59,975 [zaza]: yeah 2088 01:18:59,918 --> 01:19:04,576 [toby_jones]: i think yeah sort of looking trying to look at the monguls less from a 2089 01:19:05,700 --> 01:19:10,488 [toby_jones]: um yeah just a sort of shocking aspect and looking more into the details in 2090 01:19:10,548 --> 01:19:17,840 [toby_jones]: order to understand what i do understand what they gave what they you know how 2091 01:19:17,900 --> 01:19:23,309 [toby_jones]: the connections happened even if you never ignore the fact that they were extremely violent 2092 01:19:23,547 --> 01:19:24,048 [zaza]: yeah yeah 2093 01:19:24,090 --> 01:19:29,479 [toby_jones]: that's something i try to try not to do because it is a trend nowadays 2094 01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:30,982 [toby_jones]: just talk about the good parts 2095 01:19:31,598 --> 01:19:31,838 [zaza]: okay 2096 01:19:32,124 --> 01:19:35,970 [toby_jones]: but i don't i try not to do that i wrote my master's thesis was 2097 01:19:36,030 --> 01:19:41,439 [toby_jones]: called a pox on the pack because the paxmongolica was something i found very interesting 2098 01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:43,162 [toby_jones]: the idea that you know like 2099 01:19:43,214 --> 01:19:43,356 [zaza]: like 2100 01:19:43,222 --> 01:19:47,650 [toby_jones]: the paxomana this idea that they sort of made everything better but then you look 2101 01:19:47,710 --> 01:19:51,336 [toby_jones]: into the sources and you see that even after they took over there's a lot 2102 01:19:51,416 --> 01:19:56,264 [toby_jones]: of you know a lot of negative things that that that happened because of their 2103 01:19:56,344 --> 01:19:57,807 [toby_jones]: rule so i never i never 2104 01:19:57,854 --> 01:19:58,014 [zaza]: okay 2105 01:19:57,907 --> 01:19:58,088 [toby_jones]: steel 2106 01:19:58,094 --> 01:19:58,255 [zaza]: such 2107 01:19:58,188 --> 01:19:58,368 [toby_jones]: clear 2108 01:19:58,375 --> 01:19:58,455 [zaza]: as 2109 01:19:58,428 --> 01:19:58,689 [toby_jones]: of that 2110 01:19:58,795 --> 01:19:59,777 [zaza]: we just have to pry a 2111 01:19:59,790 --> 01:20:00,011 [toby_jones]: yeah 2112 01:19:59,817 --> 01:20:00,498 [zaza]: little bit here because 2113 01:20:00,556 --> 01:20:00,697 [toby_jones]: yeah 2114 01:20:00,558 --> 01:20:00,738 [zaza]: since 2115 01:20:00,818 --> 01:20:01,040 [toby_jones]: sure 2116 01:20:00,899 --> 01:20:01,219 [zaza]: it's part 2117 01:20:01,121 --> 01:20:01,242 [toby_jones]: it's 2118 01:20:01,279 --> 01:20:01,480 [zaza]: of your 2119 01:20:01,423 --> 01:20:01,605 [toby_jones]: a bit 2120 01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:01,840 [zaza]: research 2121 01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:06,667 [toby_jones]: yeah i mean it's it's something i looked at before but so i mean one 2122 01:20:06,707 --> 01:20:10,373 [toby_jones]: of the big things that people like to talk about is the importance of trade 2123 01:20:10,914 --> 01:20:12,637 [toby_jones]: and how trade became so 2124 01:20:12,674 --> 01:20:12,796 [zaza]: so 2125 01:20:13,057 --> 01:20:17,164 [toby_jones]: big in this period a way that had not been previously and yet 2126 01:20:17,186 --> 01:20:17,350 [zaza]: yeah 2127 01:20:17,886 --> 01:20:20,189 [toby_jones]: really that trade benefited the traders 2128 01:20:19,936 --> 01:20:20,347 [zaza]: travers 2129 01:20:20,490 --> 01:20:21,712 [toby_jones]: and the mongul 2130 01:20:21,605 --> 01:20:21,870 [zaza]: mule 2131 01:20:21,772 --> 01:20:27,221 [toby_jones]: elite and that's pretty much it and if you look at the example the postal 2132 01:20:27,281 --> 01:20:32,149 [toby_jones]: network which everyone talks about is this amazing thing and and i sense it is 2133 01:20:32,650 --> 01:20:38,460 [toby_jones]: the fact that the monguls used the people living in that area to support that 2134 01:20:38,540 --> 01:20:41,645 [toby_jones]: network and that was a huge demand on them and so 2135 01:20:41,723 --> 01:20:41,803 [zaza]: so 2136 01:20:41,745 --> 01:20:46,653 [toby_jones]: in actual fact the king of armenia his name is het when he created a 2137 01:20:47,775 --> 01:20:49,658 [toby_jones]: treaty with the mongols that 2138 01:20:49,697 --> 01:20:49,799 [zaza]: that 2139 01:20:49,719 --> 01:20:49,819 [toby_jones]: was 2140 01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:49,962 [zaza]: was 2141 01:20:49,899 --> 01:20:54,183 [toby_jones]: one of his um sort of provisos that he didn't have to have the postal 2142 01:20:54,203 --> 01:20:58,027 [toby_jones]: network in his lands and so this was he didn't want it 2143 01:20:58,127 --> 01:20:58,189 [zaza]: ah 2144 01:20:58,748 --> 01:20:59,168 [toby_jones]: essentially 2145 01:20:59,195 --> 01:20:59,376 [zaza]: because 2146 01:20:59,208 --> 01:20:59,368 [toby_jones]: he's 2147 01:20:59,396 --> 01:20:59,456 [zaza]: it 2148 01:20:59,428 --> 01:20:59,629 [toby_jones]: saying 2149 01:20:59,476 --> 01:20:59,697 [zaza]: was such 2150 01:20:59,729 --> 01:20:59,809 [toby_jones]: no 2151 01:20:59,757 --> 01:21:00,561 [zaza]: a burden on the state 2152 01:21:00,750 --> 01:21:04,937 [toby_jones]: yeah so and we have other sources which talk about you know people fleeing the 2153 01:21:05,037 --> 01:21:09,625 [toby_jones]: area around these postal networks because it was too much i mean basically the people 2154 01:21:09,765 --> 01:21:14,032 [toby_jones]: using them were were if it was all may be well you would say it 2155 01:21:14,072 --> 01:21:18,299 [toby_jones]: would work fine but of course people abuse those powers that they were given by 2156 01:21:18,339 --> 01:21:23,528 [toby_jones]: the mongols and so yeah you do have some a lot of negatives that if 2157 01:21:23,608 --> 01:21:26,152 [toby_jones]: you you know just talk about the benefits of trade 2158 01:21:26,049 --> 01:21:26,290 [zaza]: rad 2159 01:21:26,793 --> 01:21:28,256 [toby_jones]: you get a very sort of yeah 2160 01:21:28,289 --> 01:21:28,370 [zaza]: ah 2161 01:21:28,997 --> 01:21:34,706 [toby_jones]: modern capitalist sort of trickle down theory idea of how how important it was and 2162 01:21:34,766 --> 01:21:39,494 [toby_jones]: i think really only by looking deeper into the sort of the nittygritti of it 2163 01:21:39,534 --> 01:21:43,541 [toby_jones]: do you understand okay sometimes it could be good but it seems to have been 2164 01:21:43,581 --> 01:21:46,306 [toby_jones]: bad a lot of the time much 2165 01:21:46,385 --> 01:21:46,485 [zaza]: oh 2166 01:21:46,446 --> 01:21:47,688 [toby_jones]: like our current system 2167 01:21:48,167 --> 01:21:48,667 [zaza]: oh yeah 2168 01:21:48,570 --> 01:21:49,409 [toby_jones]: oh 2169 01:21:49,328 --> 01:21:50,028 [zaza]: applying a little 2170 01:21:50,010 --> 01:21:50,880 [toby_jones]: oh 2171 01:21:50,068 --> 01:21:51,390 [zaza]: bit of marxist analysis 2172 01:21:51,330 --> 01:21:51,492 [toby_jones]: yeah 2173 01:21:51,570 --> 01:21:51,650 [zaza]: to 2174 01:21:51,817 --> 01:21:51,959 [toby_jones]: yeah 2175 01:21:51,830 --> 01:21:52,971 [zaza]: mongol society as well 2176 01:21:53,060 --> 01:21:53,203 [toby_jones]: yeah 2177 01:21:54,803 --> 01:21:59,296 [zaza]: yeah so much we already spent i took so much over your time i'm sorry 2178 01:21:59,356 --> 01:22:00,079 [zaza]: it's like an hour and a 2179 01:22:00,112 --> 01:22:00,172 [toby_jones]: as 2180 01:22:00,139 --> 01:22:00,359 [zaza]: half 2181 01:22:00,212 --> 01:22:00,432 [toby_jones]: you told 2182 01:22:00,480 --> 01:22:00,821 [zaza]: already 2183 01:22:00,532 --> 01:22:01,995 [toby_jones]: have to apologize i love talking 2184 01:22:01,983 --> 01:22:02,123 [zaza]: this 2185 01:22:02,035 --> 01:22:02,195 [toby_jones]: about 2186 01:22:02,183 --> 01:22:02,303 [zaza]: was 2187 01:22:02,235 --> 01:22:02,756 [toby_jones]: it obviously 2188 01:22:02,343 --> 01:22:02,864 [zaza]: so cool i 2189 01:22:02,876 --> 01:22:05,640 [toby_jones]: yeah 2190 01:22:02,964 --> 01:22:08,333 [zaza]: hope we did dispell some of this bindery you know myths with this conversation and 2191 01:22:08,393 --> 01:22:11,318 [zaza]: i'd love to have you back if i didn't tire you out too much 2192 01:22:11,745 --> 01:22:11,886 [toby_jones]: not 2193 01:22:11,859 --> 01:22:12,160 [zaza]: today 2194 01:22:11,946 --> 01:22:13,174 [toby_jones]: at all not at all a 2195 01:22:13,322 --> 01:22:16,227 [zaza]: but before we say good bye you know the 2196 01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:16,480 [toby_jones]: oh 2197 01:22:16,267 --> 01:22:20,373 [zaza]: tradition in this podcast is that i ask you something a little bit trashy at 2198 01:22:20,413 --> 01:22:20,714 [zaza]: the end 2199 01:22:20,610 --> 01:22:20,831 [toby_jones]: oh 2200 01:22:20,974 --> 01:22:24,661 [zaza]: since the title of this podcast is our trash so i 2201 01:22:24,655 --> 01:22:25,350 [toby_jones]: hm 2202 01:22:24,701 --> 01:22:25,402 [zaza]: was just thinking 2203 01:22:25,650 --> 01:22:25,813 [toby_jones]: oh 2204 01:22:25,903 --> 01:22:31,592 [zaza]: as a mongol warrior could you be like cuts sometimes could you put like flowers 2205 01:22:31,140 --> 01:22:31,380 [toby_jones]: oh 2206 01:22:32,013 --> 01:22:36,280 [zaza]: on in your helmet could you you know put i don't know like a pink 2207 01:22:36,420 --> 01:22:41,094 [zaza]: garment on you or you have to act macha all the time and be really 2208 01:22:41,174 --> 01:22:42,078 [zaza]: tough do we know 2209 01:22:42,102 --> 01:22:42,306 [toby_jones]: um 2210 01:22:42,178 --> 01:22:42,981 [zaza]: anything about that 2211 01:22:43,770 --> 01:22:46,274 [toby_jones]: yeah i'm not sure it's i've never 2212 01:22:46,124 --> 01:22:46,430 [zaza]: i've never 2213 01:22:46,354 --> 01:22:46,555 [toby_jones]: seen 2214 01:22:46,553 --> 01:22:46,695 [zaza]: seen 2215 01:22:46,615 --> 01:22:53,947 [toby_jones]: anything about about mangle dress ever going to those those interesting ways sadly 2216 01:22:54,284 --> 01:22:55,787 [zaza]: okay 2217 01:22:55,590 --> 01:22:59,200 [toby_jones]: yeah there's i mean they definitely had they definitely had a sense of humor that 2218 01:23:00,363 --> 01:23:05,243 [toby_jones]: the key is that one of the the rulers gad i told you that he 2219 01:23:05,324 --> 01:23:07,347 [toby_jones]: liked he liked to drink and 2220 01:23:07,343 --> 01:23:07,583 [zaza]: yeah 2221 01:23:08,068 --> 01:23:12,816 [toby_jones]: there was apparently this is probably an apocryphal story but one worth sharing 2222 01:23:12,574 --> 01:23:13,416 [zaza]: let's pretend it's true 2223 01:23:13,357 --> 01:23:13,938 [toby_jones]: none the less 2224 01:23:14,297 --> 01:23:14,438 [zaza]: yeah 2225 01:23:14,759 --> 01:23:20,449 [toby_jones]: what told that in order not to die early from alcoholism he should reduce his 2226 01:23:20,970 --> 01:23:25,818 [toby_jones]: consumption to one cup of day so he decided to make his cup much much 2227 01:23:25,898 --> 01:23:26,158 [toby_jones]: bigger 2228 01:23:27,993 --> 01:23:28,714 [zaza]: a mega pint 2229 01:23:29,121 --> 01:23:30,843 [toby_jones]: exactly exactly so i'm 2230 01:23:30,779 --> 01:23:31,099 [zaza]: okay 2231 01:23:30,883 --> 01:23:33,425 [toby_jones]: just in visioning a sort of thing like this and you just 2232 01:23:33,423 --> 01:23:33,583 [zaza]: yeah 2233 01:23:33,565 --> 01:23:33,705 [toby_jones]: yeah 2234 01:23:33,623 --> 01:23:34,584 [zaza]: yeah yeah like a man 2235 01:23:35,227 --> 01:23:36,768 [toby_jones]: exactly exactly 2236 01:23:36,526 --> 01:23:39,349 [zaza]: could they would they laugh at themselves or was like 2237 01:23:39,150 --> 01:23:39,810 [toby_jones]: yeah 2238 01:23:40,050 --> 01:23:40,790 [zaza]: saving face 2239 01:23:40,650 --> 01:23:40,832 [toby_jones]: oh 2240 01:23:40,930 --> 01:23:42,452 [zaza]: really important in that culture 2241 01:23:43,414 --> 01:23:44,116 [toby_jones]: i think yeah 2242 01:23:44,073 --> 01:23:44,213 [zaza]: were 2243 01:23:44,196 --> 01:23:44,216 [toby_jones]: i 2244 01:23:44,273 --> 01:23:44,394 [zaza]: they 2245 01:23:44,276 --> 01:23:44,396 [toby_jones]: mean 2246 01:23:44,434 --> 01:23:48,000 [zaza]: like roasting each other a little bit because i had i had a viking historian 2247 01:23:47,586 --> 01:23:47,806 [toby_jones]: yeah 2248 01:23:49,622 --> 01:23:52,647 [zaza]: on the podcast professor northwick a while back 2249 01:23:52,470 --> 01:23:52,611 [toby_jones]: yeah 2250 01:23:52,888 --> 01:23:55,091 [zaza]: and he said that it was possible 2251 01:23:54,630 --> 01:23:56,100 [toby_jones]: yeah 2252 01:23:55,332 --> 01:23:58,878 [zaza]: in the viking era in one context and that was if you went straight to 2253 01:23:58,938 --> 01:23:59,278 [zaza]: the king 2254 01:23:59,346 --> 01:23:59,366 [toby_jones]: a 2255 01:23:59,960 --> 01:24:02,744 [zaza]: and you were roasting him in versus that were very 2256 01:24:02,712 --> 01:24:02,893 [toby_jones]: yeah 2257 01:24:02,884 --> 01:24:04,187 [zaza]: witty then you could 2258 01:24:04,181 --> 01:24:04,262 [toby_jones]: oh 2259 01:24:04,227 --> 01:24:04,307 [zaza]: get 2260 01:24:04,362 --> 01:24:04,523 [toby_jones]: yeah 2261 01:24:04,367 --> 01:24:07,652 [zaza]: away with it and also get a prize for that but that was 2262 01:24:07,684 --> 01:24:07,865 [toby_jones]: yeah 2263 01:24:07,853 --> 01:24:09,178 [zaza]: of the only context where that 2264 01:24:09,280 --> 01:24:09,440 [toby_jones]: well 2265 01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:09,659 [zaza]: went 2266 01:24:09,480 --> 01:24:13,046 [toby_jones]: yeah i mean there is a lot of in the secret history for example there 2267 01:24:13,106 --> 01:24:16,492 [toby_jones]: is a lot of the s a lot of poetry and of course it's not 2268 01:24:16,552 --> 01:24:19,938 [toby_jones]: a written culture so you know we may not 2269 01:24:19,933 --> 01:24:20,014 [zaza]: no 2270 01:24:19,998 --> 01:24:23,624 [toby_jones]: know how much was there but there does seem to be quite 2271 01:24:23,671 --> 01:24:23,753 [zaza]: it 2272 01:24:23,784 --> 01:24:29,594 [toby_jones]: a yeah somewhat complex genuinely you see their humor and it doesn't doesn't seem to 2273 01:24:29,654 --> 01:24:30,435 [toby_jones]: translate because 2274 01:24:30,833 --> 01:24:31,054 [zaza]: yeah 2275 01:24:30,956 --> 01:24:34,522 [toby_jones]: it is being translated and it never makes sense but there do seem there does 2276 01:24:34,582 --> 01:24:36,786 [toby_jones]: seem to have been plenty of yeah 2277 01:24:36,875 --> 01:24:36,956 [zaza]: ah 2278 01:24:37,808 --> 01:24:39,330 [toby_jones]: sort of yeah intense 2279 01:24:40,133 --> 01:24:40,417 [zaza]: oh 2280 01:24:40,632 --> 01:24:47,004 [toby_jones]: sort of jousting when it comes to yeahthese poems and um criticizing the others but 2281 01:24:47,445 --> 01:24:47,946 [toby_jones]: yeah it's hard 2282 01:24:47,803 --> 01:24:48,106 [zaza]: it's hard 2283 01:24:48,007 --> 01:24:48,748 [toby_jones]: to tell sadly 2284 01:24:49,293 --> 01:24:51,254 [zaza]: okay where can 2285 01:24:51,275 --> 01:24:51,295 [toby_jones]: m 2286 01:24:51,475 --> 01:24:56,540 [zaza]: people follow your work do you have any social media profiles you'd like to share 2287 01:24:56,720 --> 01:24:57,581 [zaza]: are you writing a book 2288 01:24:57,639 --> 01:24:57,660 [toby_jones]: m 2289 01:24:57,761 --> 01:24:59,042 [zaza]: do you have any articles out there 2290 01:25:00,301 --> 01:25:06,812 [toby_jones]: yeah so i'm sort of just because i've finished my ph d that i would 2291 01:25:07,332 --> 01:25:07,573 [toby_jones]: hope 2292 01:25:07,574 --> 01:25:07,696 [zaza]: oh 2293 01:25:07,733 --> 01:25:08,514 [toby_jones]: would become a book 2294 01:25:09,143 --> 01:25:09,345 [zaza]: oh 2295 01:25:09,656 --> 01:25:09,897 [toby_jones]: in the 2296 01:25:09,971 --> 01:25:10,073 [zaza]: yeah 2297 01:25:10,097 --> 01:25:12,160 [toby_jones]: near future i have 2298 01:25:12,093 --> 01:25:12,113 [zaza]: i 2299 01:25:12,181 --> 01:25:12,241 [toby_jones]: an 2300 01:25:12,193 --> 01:25:12,313 [zaza]: have 2301 01:25:12,361 --> 01:25:17,950 [toby_jones]: article in the journal ran that's about mongol loyalty and that one is sort of 2302 01:25:18,792 --> 01:25:24,462 [toby_jones]: quite broad scope view of the sort of ifferent objects 2303 01:25:24,243 --> 01:25:24,323 [zaza]: oh 2304 01:25:24,522 --> 01:25:28,595 [toby_jones]: of loyalty so who should you be loyal to um and yeah 2305 01:25:28,595 --> 01:25:28,735 [zaza]: yeah 2306 01:25:29,457 --> 01:25:31,441 [toby_jones]: i uh yeah i 2307 01:25:31,441 --> 01:25:31,561 [zaza]: yeah 2308 01:25:31,502 --> 01:25:34,346 [toby_jones]: think maybe just we'll 2309 01:25:34,343 --> 01:25:34,523 [zaza]: well 2310 01:25:34,406 --> 01:25:38,153 [toby_jones]: hear more at a certain at a later date about my my own work but 2311 01:25:39,294 --> 01:25:44,963 [toby_jones]: for now yeah i think just i'm linked in that's probably the best way for 2312 01:25:45,023 --> 01:25:45,163 [toby_jones]: now 2313 01:25:45,656 --> 01:25:45,957 [zaza]: all right 2314 01:25:45,985 --> 01:25:46,045 [toby_jones]: to 2315 01:25:46,058 --> 01:25:46,219 [zaza]: cool 2316 01:25:46,405 --> 01:25:47,387 [toby_jones]: toby jones but yeah 2317 01:25:47,345 --> 01:25:47,647 [zaza]: awesome 2318 01:25:47,427 --> 01:25:48,869 [toby_jones]: that's that's the key for now 2319 01:25:49,303 --> 01:25:50,505 [zaza]: thank you so much thanks 2320 01:25:50,470 --> 01:25:50,671 [toby_jones]: you're 2321 01:25:50,585 --> 01:25:50,806 [zaza]: again 2322 01:25:50,731 --> 01:25:50,912 [toby_jones]: very 2323 01:25:50,886 --> 01:25:51,046 [zaza]: thank 2324 01:25:50,972 --> 01:25:51,314 [toby_jones]: welcome 2325 01:25:51,086 --> 01:25:51,767 [zaza]: you for your time 2326 01:25:51,756 --> 01:25:51,936 [toby_jones]: yeh 2327 01:25:52,348 --> 01:25:53,510 [zaza]: this was absolutely amazing 2328 01:25:53,550 --> 01:25:53,793 [toby_jones]: uh 2329 01:25:53,811 --> 01:25:53,831 [zaza]: i 2330 01:25:53,976 --> 01:25:53,996 [toby_jones]: h 2331 01:25:54,031 --> 01:25:54,652 [zaza]: really will 2332 01:25:54,909 --> 01:25:54,930 [toby_jones]: h 2333 01:25:55,233 --> 01:25:59,340 [zaza]: force to have this conversation again maybe we can narrow it down a little bit 2334 01:25:59,420 --> 01:25:59,701 [zaza]: more 2335 01:25:59,463 --> 01:26:00,024 [toby_jones]: sure yeah 2336 01:25:59,961 --> 01:26:00,261 [zaza]: i won't 2337 01:26:00,224 --> 01:26:00,364 [toby_jones]: yeah 2338 01:26:00,322 --> 01:26:00,402 [zaza]: be 2339 01:26:00,444 --> 01:26:00,644 [toby_jones]: that's 2340 01:26:00,482 --> 01:26:00,582 [zaza]: so 2341 01:26:00,784 --> 01:26:01,045 [toby_jones]: a little 2342 01:26:00,944 --> 01:26:01,106 [zaza]: over 2343 01:26:01,125 --> 01:26:01,465 [toby_jones]: easier 2344 01:26:01,167 --> 01:26:01,593 [zaza]: the place 2345 01:26:01,566 --> 01:26:02,166 [toby_jones]: as well yeah 2346 01:26:02,363 --> 01:26:04,899 [zaza]: yeah yeah yeah so yeah thanks again