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Kathryn McMurray/ Who are the MOST rocking women in history? · Best/Most

• Jogo: Welcome to Best Most, the show that asks the questions, what is the best and what is the most? I'm your host, Jose Jogo Gonzalez, and we ask questions like what is the best song about a non-human subject? Or what is a TV show with the most accurate depiction of high school life? Now, if you'd like to be a part of the future conversations on future episodes, join our Instagram community on Instagram at best.most.pod. That is where I post all the questions for community answers that will be on actual episodes. So join the conversation. today's guest is a creative writing professor and poet. She published a book that was released in 2018 called If Your Body is a Broken Landscape. She's a mother, a wife, to a badass musician. She's also Kat: Yeah. Jogo: a hell of a singer. She's a friend. She's a woman that rocks. Welcome. Catherine McMurray. Kat: Hi, Jose. Thanks for having me on. I'm a longtime listener, first time guest. Jogo: No, my pleasure, my pleasure. our guest does get to choose the question. So today's question is who are the most rocking women in history? Katherine McMurray, why did you choose this question? Kat: it's a hard question to ask. I think I was initially wanting us to focus on women in rock history. because really it's only recently that women have been allowed to rock, you know, like they're it's only recently that women have been broken through that barrier, that Patriarchal barrier and started to get the acclaim that they deserve in the rock and roll world. And there are definitely some people who were chipping away at those barriers very early on in rock and roll history. But I also want to acknowledge that women have rocked throughout history. And of course, there Jogo: Yeah. Kat: are plenty Jogo: Yeah. Kat: of women, you know, who were not rock and roll stars, who were not in bands, who were not musicians, who inspired women to pick up guitars, to become artists, to lead in some way, to not silence their voices. And and I wanna acknowledge those women too. Jogo: when we kind of work on the question together, the guests and I kind of like kind of shaped the question usually. And in this one, I think I kind of drop the ball and I'm making it more specific to you know, rock and women who ro do rock and roll really. but I I think a lot of our answers are pretty much focused Kat: Definitely. Jogo: on that subject. focused on Kat: Definitely. Jogo: that we're gonna go to the community picks. Catherine has a few of hers and I have a few of my own, so we're gonna go back and forth. Catherine, Kat: Okay, so Jogo: you go first. Catherine, Kat: Okay, so Jogo: you go first. Kat: the first person who I talked to, because he does not have social media, is my husband, Shannon. He's a musician. And immediately we started talking about, well, what does it mean to rock? Like what who are we talking about here? you know, like I said, originally I was thinking about rock and roll artists. and he he was saying, Yeah, but sometimes people who were performers before rock and roll was a popular genre, also rocked. And that there are also people who are outside of the genre of rock and roll who are in like pop music, who still rock. And you know, so I ke I kept thinking about this quote from somebody who was a lover of Lord Byron, who was a a poet. Lady Caroline Lamb who described him as mad, bad, and dangerous to know, which I just think is like the definition of somebody who rocks. and and I Jogo: Yeah. Kat: think some of my husband's pics fit that definition too. but I focused my list on people who were in rock and roll. So he said Billy Holiday, I mean she was living like a rock and roll rock star long before rock rock and roll was like a popular genre on the radio. but he also said Etta Jogo: Yeah. Kat: James, Aretha Franklin, Loretta Lynn, Nina Simone, Janice Joplin, Susie Sue. He had a good list. I was like, yes, you're representing me well. Wendy O'Williams, Ixene Cervenka, Jeanette Napolitano from Concrete Blonde, Debbie Harry, and Kim Deal. Those that was his list. He was my longest community list. Yeah, very cool. Jogo: That's cool. Kat: Yeah, very cool. Jogo: That's cool. yeah, great picks on that one. Rosa, my wife, she chose Karen O she's one of I know she's one of Rosa's favorites and one of my favorites too as well. I'm actually sporting a Yaya Kat: Yeah. Jogo: yes shirt Kat: Repping. Jogo: right now too. Kat: Repping. Jogo: right now too. yeah. or let's go back and forth. Kat: Well, let me just your wife is a woman who rocks. She is my good friend and Jogo: Absolutely. Kat: I love her so much. Hi, Rosa. And she has very good taste. I I think you'll see Karen O got a very honorable mention from me, but I had some heavyweights in my list. She definitely makes it in Jogo: Yeah. Kat: there. so my friend Ian, she said Joan Jet, like classic. like undeniable. Joan Jett is in there, right? Jogo: I was thinking about it like as far as like who kind of screams rock to me. and also I think like the idea of like what what is what feels like rock. And I feel it's like kind of almost like unbridled emotion, just kind of released in in in like a a sound, you know? and I think that Joan Jett has that in spades in her voice, like just her singing voice is like so rough and like great, you know, a lot of grit to it. Kat: Definitely. Like if you can imagine them wearing a motorcycle jacket, they probably rock, right? Jogo: Yeah. True. I I could also imagine Edda James wearing a motorcycle jacket as well too, so that works. Jason, he said, Cassandra from Crucial Taunt. Kat: Mm. Jogo: if you know, you know. Kat: Ha ha. Jogo: And Brittany Howard from Alabama Shakes which is a fucking great pick. like I remember seeing this one performance. I I'm on a late late night show with Alabama Shakes with Brittany Howard just killing it and Kat: That voice. Jogo: that voice, that performance, Kat: Yeah, the Jogo: that killer guitar holy shit, amazing. Kat: that performance is insane. True. True Jogo: guitar holy shit, amazing. Kat: that performance is insane. True. True that. Jogo: Yeah. And then I I'll I'll kind of key you guys in. Ca Crucial Taunt is a f is a fake band in W Wayne's world. Kat: Definitely. Jogo: and Cassandra is the the girlfriend of of Wayne. So yeah. Kat: She's hot, she's a badass. Jogo: Yep. She fits the mold of of a woman who rocks, so Kat: Definitely. Jogo: yeah. Kat: Kristen, my friend Kristen said Pat Benatar and Patty Smith. And I just like thought about like they're both rock and both are so different. Like Pat Benatar coming from the Jogo: Yeah. Kat: pop world, but like wow, that voice, the power coming to that that tiny little person. And Patty Smith, she's she is also gonna, you know, arrive here soon. in our discussion. I'll have more to say about her, but that's what Kristen added. Jogo: Nice, nice. let's see. Veronica, my sister, she chose Joan Jet. yeah, again, really great. Kat: Classic. And Big Money B said Stevie Nicks, Chrissy Hynde also Debbie Harry and Pat Benatar. And then my friend Andrea from she has a ceramics business called Lunar Reese Ceramics. she said Patty Smith, Chrissy Hind, Kate Bush, some of the youngsters who were watching Stranger Things now know who Kate Bush is, Debbie Harry Jogo: Yes. Kat: and Pollystyrene. Jogo: Whoa. certain women to be be amazing. Kat: They're iconic. Jogo: Bass Boomer eighty three, chose Pat Benatar and Gwen Stefani as well. Kat: Well that my last community pick is Jana nine four nine Realtor and she also said Gwen Stefani. So and that's the last of my community picks. Jogo: it's it okay, so Gwen Stefani to me, when I was in high school, 'cause I was in a band just out of high school called Stalking Roxy, and that that band was like I think we initially started off playing covers of No Doubt. we were a female fronted band. and I just remember thinking like Gwen Stefani was just like magic, I remember watching this, you know, like those like really late at night kind of after Saturday Night Live kind of like infomercials? Or or those shows like something LA. Kat: Right. Right. Jogo: LA. and I think they played videos on there and I think it was Walking on the Spider Webs or Spiderwebs Kat: Mm-hmm. Jogo: was playing, and I'm thinking like, fuck, this girl's so cool. Like she's like the coolest like girl I've ever seen. It's so cool. Kat: Every guy in the nineties had a crush Jogo: So I don't know, Quincy Kat: on Gwen Stefani with the mid drift and everything. Like she I have a funny Jogo: Yeah. Kat: little story about her. I used to go to, you know, the ska scene was really big in the nineties and I went to a lot of ska shows. And no doubt when they were first I mean, I don't think Tragic Kingdom had even been released yet, and they were doing shows to promote their album. And I worked at the Anti Mall in Costa Mesa when it first opened. Jogo: yeah. Is it the the camp is it the camp? Kat: no, across the street. they called it the lab anti-mall. And it was very Jogo: The lab. Lab, yes. Kat: it was like a you know, a capitalist joke really. But I worked at this punk rock store. And Gwen Stefani got to, and that store was in Huntington Beach actually. And when she came in to pick out an outfit for the cover of Tragic Kingdom, so that red vinyl outfit that she's wearing, she bought at the Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: store when I was working there, which is kind of funny. And it was a cool outfit. It was like, whoa, Jogo: Wow. Kat: red vinyl, that's incredible. Jogo: MS Beas she chose Stevie Nicks and Courtney Love. Great picks. let's see. John Estrada is a frequent flyer. I've said this many times, but he has a really chunky kind of answer, so let's go into that. Jan Janet Weiss elevated Sleater Kinney. I'd say the best member in Sleater Kinney. Shots fired. Patty Schemel or Schemmel Kat: Mm-hmm. Jogo: from Hole also has a huge impact behind the kit for one of the most important records in the mid-90s. PJ Harvey, you could do a whole episode on her catalog. No one can touch her unique tone and style. Poison Ivy from The Cramps, Kat: yeah. Jogo: Kim Gordon in Sonic Youth. Bikini Kill, L7, Babes in Toyland, Red Ants, Debbie Google and Belinda Butcher from My Bloody Valentine. parentheses, the loudest band on your entire episode. Kat: Ha ha ha. Jogo: Mickey and Emma from Underrated band known as Lush. Probably most recently is Amy from Emil Kat: Amy L and the sniffers, yeah. Jogo: Sniffers. yeah, I've heard them recently. Yes, really good. local check out Hexcode and Swing Haley. And of course, personally my favorite, my wife Daisy, and our good friends Jenna and Griselda. And he said another add-on, UK women who rock along with Lush, Elizabeth Frazier in Cocteau Twins, Harriet Wheeler in the Sundays, and Amy Winehouse. And he said, I forgot Alice Alice Ba Bag and Bratmobile. Kat: Mm, definitely, definitely. Yes, Alice Bag for sure. She's definitely an honorable mention in my in my list too. yeah, actually a lot of overlap. He's stealing my thunder. Jogo: So we'll go more into your picks, John, as she's going through her picks. So couldn't we'll let's see. Roho Locomotion chose Sleater Kenny, Kim Gordon, Kim Deal, Bikini Kill, so many groundbreaking women in rock, Stephen Joseph Craig said Slimenstra Hyman, Wada from Boris and Joe Bench from Bolt Thrower. Kat: Mm. Jogo: Edro DeCarmona chose Blondie, Tony Barfaloni said Betty Davis, but also Mama Cass and Ari up, and most of all Kathleen Hanna. So those have been Kat: Mm. Mm. Yep. All good taste there. Jogo: Absolutely, yeah. And so that's been our community picks. We're gonna go into our personal picks. right, so Katherine McMurray, who are the most rockin women in history? Kat: well it's a broad category, right? So when I started making my list, I was like, okay, let's go back. Let's go all the way back to like rock and roll at its like you know, roots in the very beginning. And you know, it I have to say Big Mama Thornton, you know, like you it you can't beat ball and chain, hound dog, little red rooster, like it's You know, Elvis, the Stones, they stole that music from black culture. And Big Mama Thornton was out there with her guitar belting out that music long before they were, you know. and you know, I almost put Sister Rosetta Tharp on there too, but because I was trying to kind of keep it to rock and roll and she's kind of more gospel. I I narrowed it down to Big Mama Thornton. So she's like number one. Like I her her version of Ball and Chain just blows my mind. And I I just idolize her. I think she's amazing. Just a groundbreaking musician, powerful, powerful voice. Jogo: Nice. you're gonna give me education on this I know I have a blind spot with certain things, but also Catherine made a companion playlist that we're gonna go into a little bit later too. So that you can listen to. We're gonna put the link somewhere so you can listen get to it. yeah, continue. Kat: Yeah. And I was just gonna say, I'm not a musician, you know, so for me, like a lot of the people on my list are about feeling, you know, it's about, you know, as a young woman growing up, like who were the women that that empowered me to be free, to like break the rules, to challenge society's norms, to enter spaces where like you know. Patriarchal Society was telling me, No, you can't go there, you know? And so next on my list is Janice Joplin. Like, talk about a ragged, Jogo: Mm. Kat: powerful, intense voice, like just, Jogo: Yeah. Kat: you know, like that raspy sound that she gets into that song, Cry Baby, like cry, cry, baby. Like she just like, and she just goes on, like, peace of my heart. And Actually, I think the thing that introduced me to Janice Joplin was a cover of Billy Holiday's Summertime. And it is like one of the saddest, deepest, scratchiest like versions of summertime that I've ever heard in my life. Really great, great cover of that song. Jogo: Yeah, Janice Chopin is is great. She has she ha is one of those people who like you can feel everything she's singing. Kat: Hundred percent. Jogo: And I think a lot of like sincerity goes a long way. And I think that's what creates an icon. And I think Janet Joplin Janice Chopin fits that mold like she's amazing, and I think she just fits that perfectly. Kat: Especially because at the time period, so many other women who were great, you know, like I'm also a big fan of Joni Mitchell. I you know what there are a lot of amazing Carly Jogo: Yeah. Kat: Simon, they're amazing singer, songwriter, women who were great players too, great at guitar. but but like the rock and rollness of Janice Joplin really stands out in comparison to some of those other women. So She's great. I think another standout is Betty Davis. she and one of your community answers mentioned her. I actually stumbled onto her music a little later in life. I just love everything about Betty Davis. She is funky. She's just funky. She just is like, she is unapologetic. Like, you know, I remember listening to like Dr. Dre and like Snoop Dogg in the 90s, and like it was Jogo: Sure. Kat: like raw and like sexual and like explicit. And she was like getting down there in the 70s. Like she Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: was just talking about like explicit sexuality. She was talking about embracing who she is, even though she's different. Literally, one of her most favorite song or famous songs is called They Say I'm Different, but she's also got a really Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: great song called Nasty Gal. I encourage anyone to check out her discography. She was married to Miles Davis, and she is a one of a kind. Everything about her, her style, her perspective, her attitude about art, her attitude about her music, everything about her screams like, I am not gonna let you hold me down. You know, she's just the the epitome of rock and roll. Jogo: Yeah. And I got to kinda like listen to your playlist the other day and I kinda sent you texts cause like, my god. Kat: Yeah. Jogo: Cause I had never really heard I've never really heard of her Betty Davis before. So it's funny because out of all that lit like of a few of the people I listened to, I was like this she stuck out so much in the best way. I was like, Who is this? Kat: Yeah. So unique. Her voice is like nobody sounds like her. Nobody sounds like her. Jogo: And and modern, like Kat: Very Jogo: super modern. Like I I was so surprised. I was I had to like look it up and I'm like, is this someone who just came out fairly recently? And no, it came out like in what, like the seventies or something like that? Kat: Yeah, yeah. Jogo: Yeah. Kat: Yeah, she's got kind of like a parliament psychedelic style. Like she's very kind of like Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: space age in her style, which I also love. Like she's wearing like these big platforms and lots of glittery jumpsuits with big spacey like shoulder pads and stuff like that. Like her Jogo: Yeah. Kat: performing persona is really cool in addition to her musicianship. Well I've gone through a couple Jogo: I gotta check that out. Kat: of mine. What about you, Jose? Jogo: Well let's see. So again, I didn't know how to approach the the whole structure of this. What I did was I put personal people in women in history that rock and then also women in history that rock, outside of my personal preferences. So I did put one, Karen Carpenter. so Karen Carpenter would always remind me of my mom when I was younger for some reason. I think she'd play in the car where she'd take me to school. But as I got older, like literally a few years back, I really like dug into Karen Carpenter or the Carpenter's catalog of music and just found a bunch of favorites. But I think what's crazy about Karen is that she's so un unassuming in her like rock and roll icon kind of ways, you know? cause she seems so like the music itself is fairly chill and very like even keel. But when you see her live performance, she's like getting down on those drums, like fucking killing it. Kat: Yeah. Jogo: But also just like Yeah, she has like an attitude in the best way, when she's just like performing. She just throws it out there. Kat: Super groovy. Like she's got it like a groovy vibe. Yeah. There's a really cool, there was an album that came out in the 90s where everybody covered a different Carpenter song. And Sonic Youth did Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: a cover of, my God, it's like the spacey one. I can't remember the name of the song. Maybe you can edit it back, but it I think Superstar, maybe. I Jogo: horse or something Kat: it Jogo: like is it I Don't you remember that Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that. Yeah. Kat: Yes, exactly. and it it's a great cover and also that saw the original version of that song is also really strange and spacey and cool, very unique. Awesome. Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: Good pick. Should I continue with mine Jogo: Yeah. Thank you. Kat: or do you want to do one more before I can return to my list? Jogo: I'll do one more. Let's see. I also chose like Chrissy Kat: Hm. Jogo: Hind. it's from the the pretenders. there's always something about Chrissy Hind Chrissy that was just like so cool and just she seemed like I could see her just on a corner like smoking a cigarette and like just fucking chilling, you know? but she had the coolest voice with her kind of sunglasses and like suits on and shit like that. I remember seeing her on on MTV a long time ago as a kid and just thinking like gosh damn This lady like someone you'd want to hang out as an adult, you know, like just Kat: Totally. Jogo: very chill. But also just great great hooks. A lot of her songs have amazing hooks. Kat: amazing and like her black eyeliner and her bangs and her face Jogo: Yeah. Kat: and like I mean and also like the her capability to be like sexy and like sensuous and like like her she she can sound so beautiful and also at the same time so gritty. You know, she she Jogo: Yeah. Kat: hung out with the sex pistols. In in in London. Yeah, Jogo: Sounds about right. Kat: before she ended started playing with the pretender. She was in a bunch of like early punk bands and stuff like that. And I think she dated Steve Jones or something like that. But yeah, she she's definitely a cool rockin' woman for sure. Jogo: Yeah, and and effortless effortlessly cool and yet also sincerity in her voice too. Kat: yeah. Jogo: But yeah. Kat: so Patty Smith. you know, she was really important to me growing up. My mom actually introduced me to Patty Smith. and I I I mean, I think like Jogo: Nice. Kat: Horses is a legendary album. It is just like it you if you don't if you don't know horses, like you have to listen to that whole album in order. Sit down, put everything down, listen to the whole album. It is, it's a total album. so it's I felt like torn trying to pick tracks off of the album to represent like you know her range, but mostly because she's a true poet, you know, and as a poet myself, you know, when Jogo: Yeah. Kat: I was a kid, I I looked at her lyrics because I used to do that. There's for you youngins out there listening, in the olden days, Jogo: Hm. Kat: you could get like a a vinyl album sleeve and pull it out, and it would have the lyrics to the songs and you could just like lay there on Jogo: Yes. Kat: the carpet and like look at the lyrics while you're listening. Or in, you know, when the CDs came out, you'd open up your jewel case and you could, if the artists were kind enough, they would put like the song lyrics inside the artwork and the jewel case. But I just remember laying Jogo: Yeah. Kat: on this like ugly carpet and this rented house that we lived in and like looking at all the lyrics to the songs and horses and just the images and the lyrics. And the you know, her her band is kind of jammy. Like they're, you know, they really go out there, you know, they go out on a limb. And if Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: you've ever seen her play live, it's kind of like going to church. Like she's like a priestess, you know, and she like everyone's there to like worship at her altar. And she kind of has you, your soul in her grip, you know, and she like spits on the stage and She's so cool. She's just like the coolest. and you know, after Patty Smith, I'm just gonna say if anyone comes for me and wants to argue with me about this, I'm ready to take my earrings off. Jogo: Ha ha Kat: But the Wilson sisters from heart are like untouchable. Jogo: Yes. Kat: Like you cannot Jogo: Yeah. Kat: argue with friggin' Barracuda. You cannot. Like that is Jogo: Yeah. Kat: of that is the definition of a rock and roll song. and Wilson's vocals, Nancy's guitar playing, and at the time, like just my God, it's insane. Crazy on you, Magic Man, like Those women and they were so beautiful and just everything, their stage presence, like the way Nancy holds her guitar, like she raises it up in the air and her hair's blowing in the wind. And I just remember being like a kid and seeing v footage of them. And I remember my dad kind of having a little bit of a crush on both of them and just thinking they were just really cool. And I was like, yeah, that that's what you want to be like. You wanna be like them, you know? So I just yeah, the Wilson sisters from heart just crush it for me. Jogo: Yeah. They're definitely on my list. yeah. I think everything you said, and you know, you think of rock and roll, s I think you think of the Wilson sisters, you think you think of Heart and you think of Barracuda, you think of Magic Man, you think of all these things. But it's like their sound is just and they still sound like that. Kat: Mm-hmm. Jogo: I've seen like performances online and it's just yeah, killer, killer killer talent, amazing. Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Little fun Jogo: Great picks. Do you have any do you have any more picks? Kat: yeah. Kim Deal and Kim Gordon. So I did the two Kim's. I'm sorry, I couldn't choose between Jogo: Yeah. Kat: them. they were like to see Kim Deal is I just love the way she plays bass and the balance of her sweet voice with her like deep Jogo: Mm. Kat: rhythms on the bass, and then the way she compliments like You know, she just kind of weaves in and around Joey Santiago and then like her sweet voice, like paired with Frank Black's like screaming and his insanity, like, it's just Jogo: Yeah. Kat: for me, the Pixies are like one of my favorite bands of all time. Yeah, I just I just love them so much. Jogo: They're great. Yeah. Kat: And then of course in her own band, The Breeders, I love Saints, I love Noah Aloha, those are great songs. and then Kim Gordon just for me, like her story of her life, like she went to art school, she kind of stumbled her DIY approach to learning guitar and her kind of quiet presence in Sonic Youth the noisiness of her guitar, the the her willingness to just be screechy and like wrong, you know, I just and her also her like Jogo: Yeah. Kat: dead pen, like cool style of singing, like she's not gonna sing actually. She's just gonna sort of talk through the lyrics. Like I just thought she was so cool. so cool thing. Jogo: Yeah. Kat: And then a hundred percent, those are c two of my favorite Sonic Youth songs. and then of course yeah Kathleen Hannah and I I came across Bikini Kill. I I went through my Riot Girl phase and I was really into Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: you know some of the bands that have already been mentioned. but Kathleen Hanna, that song Rebel Girl just like it spoke to me to my soul, you know and Jogo: Yeah. Kat: It's very teenagery, it's very like rebellious teenage girl and and I just remember riding around in my little red Toyota terselle, smoking cigarettes, like blasting Jogo: Yeah. Kat: Rebel Girl with my friends in the car and screaming along to Jogo: Yeah. Kat: the chorus to that song. Jogo: That's about how you should really listen to that song, really. Yeah, it's like the perfect way to listen to that song. Kat: Right. Yeah. Yeah. and then sh do you wanna jump in with a couple more before I finish off my list? Jogo: Well, I a lot of a few of them that you're kind of mentioning are on my list. Kathleen Hannah, Kim Deal. Kim Deal, what I liked about her like contribution to the Pixies was that like her contrast from like again like Frank Black's voice was so critical. It it was it was necessary in a way that it it had a playfulness to it too. and a light light kind of feel to it. Like even that Hey, we're gonna tell a story about Tommy or something that like Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Jogo: whatever that fucking guy's name is. But but but but you know I mean that that part of that song was like so it's so cool in the way that it's it's not it's taking the piss out of the song, but also putting it back. Like it's just adding something to it. and yeah, like you mentioned Kat: Yeah. I've seen so many times and they've like they they get these really good musicians to play in her place. And like so far I think Paslan Chanton has probably been the person who I like the most as a replacement for her, but they're never Jogo: Mm. Kat: gonna totally replace her on tour. Like she she's the best. Jogo: Yeah, and she kinda does have like a like a fuck you kind of way to her, you know. And I think Kathleen Hannah does as well too. It's like, Hey, you don't like it, fuck you, who cares? And I think that's kind of a that's also kind of a thing of rock. I feel like there has to be a little of that too, like a an edge to you as well. Kat: A hundred percent. Yep. Jogo: yeah. Kat: well, talking about like not giving a shit, Courtney Love. she's she is a controversial person, Jogo: Yes. Kat: you know, but that's what rock and roll is, y'all. Like she, you know, I I I love that she's kind of a pain in the ass and that she's sort of toxic and she's Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: And I it's funny because it seems like lately a lot of the s quote unquote controversial things that she said and did in the nineties, now people are kind of circling back and going, my God, she was right about that, you know? and I Jogo: Yeah. Kat: just think this is maybe a hot take, but Live Through This is a perfect album. It is perfect from top to bottom. Pretty on the Inside is really good too. I love Teenage Whore. That's a great song. The opening song from Pretty on the Inside, but like gutless, asking for it, Violet. I got to see Hole in the 90s. Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: and just the way she like puts her leg up on the amp and like the wind's blowing, and I mean she just is she lives rock and roll. I mean Not a fan of the heroin, Jogo: Yeah. Kat: you know, not a fan of the of the drug Jogo: Ha Kat: addiction Jogo: ha Kat: or the alcoholism and some of the other people that we've, you know, listed. You know, you don't have to kill Jogo: Yeah. Kat: yourself to be rock and roll, you know. and I think she's sober now. Let's hope she stays that way. But but that was an incredible album and life-changing for me, you know, because To have her speak so candidly about like rape and like things that girls go through pretty regularly, more than people wanna acknowledge, more than people really wanna talk about, to talk to take head on issues that like Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: people pretty much wanna silence. You know, for a long time in rock and roll, like women sort of just had to act like men to be accepted in the world of rock and roll. And by the time we get to the 90s and we get to like riot girl stuff, like these women are not going to accept that. They're not going to just like you know write about acceptable topics that everybody in mainstream society thinks are okay and they're gonna check off the acceptable box, you know. So Courtney Jogo: Yeah. Kat: Love for sure, even though she's like a hot mess, I kind of like the hot messness of Jogo: Yeah. Kat: her. Jogo: Yeah, she has a little danger in there. And I think that's like why people were like, I don't know about her. But I think, yeah. It's it's funny, Courtney Love's on my list. I wasn't a fan of Courtney Love as a person initially. And I think a lot of it was again growing up watching MTV and watching like a lot of the interviews where she just kinda like there's that one famous interview where she goes up to like where Madonna and Kurt Loder are like talking, and I was like, Gosh damn it, Courtney Kat: Yeah, she she's a narcissist, you know. but then I also think about like how many male rock stars have been narcissists, you know, over Jogo: Yes. Yeah. Kat: the course of history and everyone thinks that's so charming Jogo: Yeah. Kat: and it's so adorable. And like, but then when she does it, you know, when she's a gate crasher, when she Jogo: Yeah. Kat: interrupts interviews, when she says the things she's not supposed to say when she acts surly with journalism music journalists Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: and like doesn't want to answer their questions or, you know, attacks them back and, you know, like, you know, lots of male rock rock stars did that and they were applauded for it, Jogo: Yeah. Kat: you know. so, you know, I I kinda I kinda love that about her, you know. Jogo: you can't deny that she's an icon in rock and roll. Kat: huh. Jogo: You know, like she's she's she again, she's gritty, She has like a great presence. And I think a lot of it is just like you can tell that she has no other way than to be herself. And I think that's that's amazing. I think that's Kat: Yeah. Jogo: you gotta give her a lot of credit for that. Kat: you know, whether people hate her or love her, she's not going away. She's a part of rock history, Jogo: Yeah. Kat: period. You know, and you better love it or leave it. Jogo: And let's see. do you have any more you want to go to? Let's do it. Kat: yeah. my gosh, Jose, I'm so sorry, but we're gonna keep going here. Jogo: I'm down and you know again, I don't really have to go through a lot of my list because again you're kind of saying already and we're kinda going we're talking about it, so Kat: Cool. Jogo: yeah. Kat: PJ Harvey. I mean, God, I don't even know what to say. Like that, first of all, rid of me top to bottom is an insane work of art. It is an amazing feat. Jogo: Yeah. Kat: you know, she had you know, to bring you my love. is a great, great song and that kind of caught got people's attention, you know, she was going, she was kind of just coming onto the scene with that first album. But then I think Rid of Me is like peak PJ Harvey. you know I love her collaborations with other artists. but for me that's her rockiness album. Like it's she is and it's not just rock and roll it's art. You know, I mean, she's really taking it Jogo: Yeah. Kat: to a psychotic level. Like there's something kind of insane about the persona she's embracing on that album. Like Shannon, Shannon and I were kind of talking about it. That's my husband, and we were talking about like what is it about her that album that makes it so rock and roll? And he's like, Well, she kind of makes me afraid of her. It's not like Jogo: Ha ha Kat: mad, bad, and dangerous to know, you know, like Jogo: Yeah. Kat: She's kind of it's a little insane. Like you don't know if she's just gonna burn your house down or something. It's kind of witchy, you know? and I Jogo: Yeah, yeah. Kat: just yeah, I let I like that she's scary. Like she's kind of scary on that album. you know, I especially love Man Size. And then her cover of the Bob Dylan song, Highway 61 Revisited. Like I just have to say I actually like that better. Maybe this is blasphemy, but I like it better than Dylan's version of Jogo: Yeah. Kat: it. She's so cool. Jogo: Ding. Kat: She's so cool. She's so cool. And the album cover with her like flipping her hair with water. Like I just I think she's so cool. I've seen her a bunch of times. She just can't go wrong. Yeah, even her later stuff. She did she's done she just is like such a range, you know? She she can sing Jogo: Mm. Kat: beautifully, but she can also really like bend her voice in this like distorted, very tweaked, strange way. she did a song that was the theme song of this Irish murder comedy show Bad Sisters that's really good. And like her every time her songs like pop up, they're just always like these they they wormhole, you know, they're ear ear yeah earworm Jogo: Yeah. Kat: into your brain and like you can't get them out, you know? So she's she's like top. Top, top, top, top. I have some very honorable mentions though. I just can't like Jogo: Okay. Kat: I can't, I couldn't like restrict myself. I was like, they can't we can't leave these people out. Like, you know, so Xine Servanka from X, you know, like Jogo: Yeah. Kat: as a poet Jogo: She's great. Kat: too, like truly amazing poet, and Alice Bag, so cool, Polystyrene, Ari Upp from The Slits, that song. Typical girls, Amy Winehouse, rest in peace. Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: Lori Barbero and Kat Bajaland from Babes in Toyland. so cool. And yes, Karen O God, like Fever to Tell, also top to bottom, be like per perfect album, Jogo: Yes. Great album. Kat: perfect album. I would say tick, Jogo: Yeah. Kat: date with the night. Come on, black tongue, shut up. Jogo: Ha Kat: Like that's she's Jogo: ha Kat: amazing. there are some. Newer artists too that have kind of caught my attention. There was this band that opened for L7 when I went to see them. they're a Latinx punk band from Texas called Faea. And they have the song Feminazi that's really good that I really like. also, yeah, Amy Taylor from Amel and the Sniffers, I think that's how you say it. and then Big Joni. They're a black fum feminist punk band from London, Stephanie Phillips. Her voice is really great. and and I just went to go see Courtney Barnett. She's an Australian singer, songwriter, guitarist. really unusual Jogo: Yeah. Kat: songwriting, very unique. she's the great song pedestrian at best. And and her recent in her new album, there's a track called Stay in Your Lane. That's really good too. Yeah. So many, so many. Like, right? We can't get to all of them. Jogo: So what I'm I have a few here, let's see, that we haven't really got too much into, but I do kind of want to just go through Kat: Yeah. Jogo: them. we don't have to go too much into them, but I have Tina Turner, amazing. Kat: yes. Jogo: Stevie Nicks, Christine McVie, Kat: Mm. Jogo: the both from Fleetwood Mac, and Annie Lennox Kat: Mm. Jogo: from the Eurythmics Tina Weymouth or Waymouth Kat: Yes. Jogo: from Talking Heads and the TomTom Club. So That's the history portion that's left over for mine. I will say like I feel like CV Nix gets a lot of the the credit for being like a a woman in rock. Kat: Yeah. Jogo: But I will say Christine McVee is also a badass as well. Yes. Kat: Songwriting, come on, Christine McVee and her harmonies, like, you know, just Jogo: Yep. Kat: because she doesn't have that like witchy style doesn't mean she doesn't rock, you Jogo: Yeah. Kat: know? Like, I mean, let's not let's not, you know, skirt over that. You know, Stevie Nicks does look Jogo: Yes. Kat: really fucking cool, you know, no doubt. Her witchy vibes, her witchy hippie Jogo: Absolutely. Kat: vibes, you know. But yes, Jogo: Yep. Kat: Christine McVee, come she she was a a key part of Fleetwood Mac, like just Jogo: Yeah. Kat: indispensable, you know. Jogo: But I feel like she's very fairly underrated at times. Yeah. Tina Tur Tina Turner, fucking killer voice, Kat: huh. Agreed. my god. Jogo: killer killer voice, killer moves, but also just like again, like this voice that you feel every single thing that she's singing. amazing. Kat: Like escape from domestic abuse and her willingness to be Jogo: Yes. Kat: public about it. I mean, like the bravery, the courage that that took. And then like his career just, but she soared, you know, and it's like, yeah, fuck that guy. You know what I mean? Jogo: Yeah, f fuck that guy. Yeah, sorry. Kat: Right? Like, that's like that's the bet living well is the best revenge, you know? And like, and and she Jogo: Yes. Kat: certainly did that. And then, like, the coolness of like, you know, doing like duets with like You know, Mick Jagger and like David Bowie and Jogo: Yes. Kat: like you know, be she could go toe to toe with any male rock star from any genre. Hands down. Jogo: Yeah. And very like specific voice. Like Kat: yeah. Jogo: she has her own like very like iconic voice. Annie Lennox, what's what's funny is that when we first landed on this this subject, right? Or this like the subject of our our question, I I for some reason I thought of Annie Lennox right away. I just think that she's such a singular artist that is fairly overlooked as well, quite a bit. when I was a kid she did remind me of the Joker a little bit, but as far as But as far as Annie Lennox goes, great voice. I saw I think it was this one fr performance I saw not too long ago with her and David Bowie, and she just like kills Kat: Yeah. Jogo: it. And she sings the I guess the part on Under Pressure that I'm blanking right now Kat: Freddie Mercury. Jogo: that Freddie Mercury would sing and like she just like Super impressive, amazing. but yeah, Tina Weymouth from Talking Heads and Kat: Mm-hmm. Jogo: Tom Club Club, amazing basis, fucking kills it on base. Kat: Yeah. And married to a former member of Modern Lovers. I don't know if you know that band. Yeah, Jonathan Richmond. Yeah. Yeah. The guitarist Jogo: really? I do. Yeah yeah yeah. Kat: who used to back Jonathan Richmond and Modern Lovers joined Talking Heads and married Tina Weymouth. Yeah. And they were like a married couple Jogo: Yeah. I had seen Kat: in a touring band with kids. And like I just think that's so cool. Like, like people people who Jogo: Living the life. Kat: can do that and like raise healthy children and like have careers and like because that industry is not designed for healthy, normal adult people. It is not designed for Jogo: Yes. Kat: that. And but it should be because it's like it's an industry like any other, you know? So she's she is a survivor Jogo: Yeah. Kat: and definitely very cool. Jogo: And then going with personal my personal part of my list, I would say Tracy Chapman, Kat: Mm. Jogo: Jenny Lewis from Rilo Kiley Kat: yeah. Jogo: also Postal Service, Jenny Lewis and the Watson twins, and Jenny Johnny. Peaches. Kat: my god, peaches, damn it. damn it, you're right. Peaches I fucking love Jogo: Yeah. Kat: peaches. Jogo: Peaches is one of those artists that is unapologetically herself. She fucking like shocks Kat: Dude, the teachers of peaches. Jogo: my god. She the first song I I heard was that song. I was like, Holy shit, this is the best song Kat: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jogo: ever. Kat: Yeah, she went for it. You know, she's she's just gonna be right up Jogo: Yeah. Kat: in there. She's gonna tell you what she likes, where she likes you to do it, how she likes you to do it, and also why you're gonna love it. Jogo: Yeah. Super charming. Does not give a shit. And yeah, great. Hilarious. Great sh great live shows. So fucking good. Kat: Funny, very funny. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Jogo: Yeah. Dolores O'Reardin the Cranberries. Kat: yeah. Dolores. Yes. Yeah. Jogo: R.I.P. great voice, amazing voice. Alanis Morset, Julieta Venegas, Shirley Manson from Garbage, Sinead O'Connor, Kat: Mm-hmm. Sinead O'Connor. Wow. And you know, I would add to that, like not rock Sinead O'Connor was like a rock and roll soul. She was like, she lived Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: rock and roll. She was just not gonna let anyone tell her that her values, that her beliefs were wrong. And she stood up to the biggest, she literally stood up to the patriarchy, the Pope, you know, like like But yeah, you know, like Jogo: S and L Yeah. Kat: that's that's that is rock and roll to tear a picture of the Pope on live television. I mean, you know, no offense to anybody out there who is like very religious, but like that was very brave, really incredible. And I would say Jogo: Absolutely. Kat: Bjork too. Jogo: I might Kat: Bjork is like so original, Jogo: yeah. Kat: like she's not people made fun of her for the swan dress that she wore to like the Academy Awards. And I'm like, who is still talking about that? Have you ever heard her music? Like Jogo: Yeah. Kat: Stop talking about her dumb dress. Like you should listen to her music, you know? Jogo: Bjork is absolutely an original. And I think at I don't think there's anyone quite like Bjork even now at this point. Kat: A hundred percent. Jogo: And if they and if they are, they're kind of mimicking Bjork Kat: Mm. Jogo: probably. But like she's amazing. let's see, I have Hope Sandoval from Mazzy Kat: Mm. Jogo: Star. Melissa Off Dur Muir Maur from Hole and Smashing Pumpkins, she's a bassist. Victoria Legrand from Beach House. Molly Rankin from Always. And Love Fox from CSS. Kat: Right on, good pick. Jogo: and then just for the props, just to finish it out, I have Saint Vincent, Kat: yeah, yeah, yeah. Jogo: Haley Haley Williams from Paramore, Kat: Mm. Jogo: and I don't know the lead singer's name, but the lead singer from Mannequin Pussy. I'm not sure if you heard of them, but they're fun, they're great. Kat: I I ha I don't know her name, but yes, they are great. They're they're totally a cool band. Jogo: Yeah. Kat: Yeah. That's awesome. You got some you got some good picks in there, Jose. I I think those are, yeah, especially Jogo: Thank you. Kat: right at the end. I think like I'm I'm a little bit older than you are. So I think like my list kind of is a little 90s heavy, you know, because that is the Jogo: Yeah. Kat: time when I was a young woman. And I it like for me, like those women were like so influential on my style, on my interests, on, you know, like poetry Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: was like something that you could study at school, but it was also something that was like cool and a little punk rock and a little like Ixene Cervenka and Patty Smith and like these Jogo: Yeah. Kat: PJ Harvey. She's kind of poetic too, you know? So it was like, okay, I can like go go to school and get a degree and I can also be kind of punk rock at the same time, you know? And like the without those women, Jogo: Yeah. Kat: like I wouldn't have had that inspiration. You know, I wouldn't have been had that career path. I wouldn't have had the courage to put my art out there. I wouldn't have had, I wouldn't be so fierce in representing myself. Like I wear what I I'm 51 and I wear band t-shirts to work. And I just don't care. I I literally don't give a fuck. I'm gonna wear whatever I want. I'm gonna say what I want, I'm Jogo: Yeah. Kat: gonna do what I want, and like the patriarchy isn't gonna stop me. Jogo: I what's funny is that listening to your your pics and I was kind of thinking to myself, gosh, Catherine's a lot cooler than me. But Kat: You're silly. I'm definitely Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: not cooler than you. Like I think I, you know, it's funny. Like when I started having kids, I did feel like I lost touch a little bit with what was happening and the pulse of music. And when I kind of re-emerged after my kids got older and I had time to kind of start listening to like what is new and what is happening in music, I saw that like that torch was. confidently pass to the next generation. And like there's some really cool things happening out there in music right now. And like all these people who are on my list, like young women know about them. And they're inspiring them Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: to pick up a microphone, pick up, you know, some drumsticks, pick up a guitar, like get out there. And like you don't have to be like a member of a prog rock band and have like classical training Jogo: Yeah. Kat: to be cool and be in a band and express yourself and say what you need to say. Jogo: Have have you heard of that band The Linda Lindas? Yeah. Kat: Yes! Actually, they opened for Bikini Kill a couple years ago, and I was like blown away. Like, cause they were like in high Jogo: Yes. Kat: school at the time that I saw that. I mean, I think they were like sophomores, like they were like sophomores and juniors in high school. And I was like, fuck yes, like get out there, Jogo: Yeah. Kat: do this shit. And it was really like heartwarming because to see like bikini kill. And also, God, I forgot to mention Bratmobile, Allison Wolf. she's so cool. She's so amazing. I love her. but to see the women of that generation like giving them like opportunities to open for them and promoting them. And Jogo: Yeah. That's great. Kat: you know, obviously there's this big, you know, Olivia Rodrigo just did Ja Daisy Chainfields and like there are a lot of those cool bands that were playing in that, in that in that festival. And I hope it keeps happening because that mix of the old and the new is gonna keep that energy Jogo: Mm-hmm. Kat: going and keep those opportunities open for new women who are entering that scene. Jogo: that whole Daisy Chain festival I what I thought was pretty impressive, you know, is that like just a younger person really kind of kind of showing her love for these other artists who she kind of pri maybe has been exposed to through family and friends and just, you know, put out there. Kat: Yeah. Actually, I remember on like a previous episode of your podcast, it was like the one about the best artists. the artists who reached the best of their career after they left their band, it was with Cesar Rodriguez. And he made this really awesome Jogo: yeah. Mm-hmm. Kat: point about listening to I hate to call it this, but that was the genre at the time, gangster rap, and like the way that they sampled like funk music and how that actually introduced him to funk music. And that that was true for me too. And I c I now see that that's happening with younger people today who are like sampling the old bands that were they're old to you know, because I'm old. god, you Jogo: Yeah. Kat: know. But that's really cool. It's a way to keep that alive, you know. Jogo: on that note, that has been our show. so did you have a good time? Kat: Had a great time, Jose. You know I love talking to you about anything. Movies, music, like all of it. We're we're culture creatures. Jogo: I agree. I agree. But thank you for being on the show and joining me on this journey. do you have any plugs? Kat: I do. actually my husband is in an 80s and 90s alternative cover band. And they are on Instagram at Phoebe Kates24. That is the name of their handle on Instagram. And they're super fun to go see and do your 80s dancing too. And I had a great time at my birthday. They backed me at my birthday party when I sang gigantic. Jogo: Yes. That was fun. Kat: And and they're hireable for birthday parties. So if anybody's interested, and and of course I have a book of poetry that you can buy for only $7.99 on Amazon. You can just look up my name or the title of the book, which is If your body is a broken landscape. Jogo: Wow, I gotta I gotta read that. Geez. Kat: Yeah, I think I like it. I had fun writing it. Jogo: I think it was yesterday. Rosa was was telling me, yeah, she was a poet too. She was like published. And I'm like, holy shit, what the heck? How how did I not know about this? I mean, Kat: Phew. Jogo: we've we've known I've my wife and I have known Catherine for a good while. And yeah, it's good to know n find out new things about your friends, which is Kat: Ha ha ha. Jogo: good. Also, I do I want to plug something. Catherine worked on a companion playlist. For the show specifically and for this specific episode, it is under best slash most Rockingest women by Kat you can add that playlist on Apple Music and it's also gonna be on Spotify as well. Kat: That's right. Jogo: So and if you have any questions on how to add it or anything, you could just just send us a message and we'll we'll get s get you in the right direction. it's a great playlist. I listened to it I listened to it like all day yesterday and today. Kat: Yeah. Jogo: And I'm just getting a great education on women who rock. So thank you for that. Kat: thank you, Jose. This was super fun. Jogo: so let's see. thank you, community, for for listening and for submitting your answers. You could always go to best.most.pod on Instagram to kind of join the community. Like it's great when it's growing because we could get more answers in and we can kind of like I don't know, it just makes it more fun. But also remember there are no guilty pleasures when it comes to music, movies, and all art preferences. Love what you love and enjoy what you enjoy. That connection is such a gift. Until the next time, take care and take care of each other. Bye bye.