Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / From Homelessness to Alternative Education Pioneer | Nicola Hepburn | EAW 60

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From Homelessness to Alternative Education Pioneer | Nicola Hepburn | EAW 60 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
0:12
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
0:22
It really helps us get this work done.
0:24
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
0:40
com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:44
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
0:46
I've got a dear friend, old friend here, Nicola Hepburn from Equine Learning in
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the UK, Warwickshire, Stratford-on-Avon, and she's one of the originals.
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She's someone who's been at it for a very long time, even though she only looks 21.
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She's actually been getting younger since I've, I've known her.
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It, it's a mark of how long Nicky's been doing this, that there was even a comp-
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that she could even name a company or find a website with equine learning in it.
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Now, you'd be hard put to find that because everyone and their
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dog is doing equine learning.
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But back in the day, when it was something new and pioneering Nicky was
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one of the people who was, you know, in, in the pioneering days and has really
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made a go of it in terms of helping people with special needs find their
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way vocationally not just as children, not just in the early years, but into
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the job market, et cetera, et cetera.
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College, all of that.
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So she â¦ It's really stood the test of time, and I think we have a lot
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to learn from how she did it, and, you know, how we can emulate it.
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So Nicky, thanks so much for coming on.
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Nicola Hepburn: Thank you for having me.
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Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's such a pleasure.
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Please tell us, you know, who are you?
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What do you do?
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Why do you do it?
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Nicola Hepburn: Okay, so, that's quite a lot to answer in one go.
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Rupert Isaacson: Well, we've got a few, we've got a, we've got a podcast
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in which you can answer it, so.
2:07
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
2:07
Well, I started equine learning back in 2008.
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So I'd been started a community project prior to that in 2006 where
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I was, you know, learning about equine-facilitated learning from 2005.
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I went on a training course.
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And it's just something that really resonated with me.
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It was one of those moments where I was working a corporate job
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that I wasn't really enjoying, and I saw this training course.
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I'd recently bought a horse who I was looking for new ways to train,
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and I started getting into a bit of natural horsemanship which
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I guess is just horsemanship.
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I'm not sure I like the term natural horsemanship.
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And I came across a course working with equine-facilitated learning, and it was
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a very new thing in the UK at this point.
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And it just was like a light bulb moment.
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I just thought, "That's really interesting.
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That's something I'd really like to do," 'cause I was really looking
3:00
for a career change at the time.
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And I managed to fundraise to get a place on the training course, and I went along
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and did this initial week-long training course in equine-facilitated learning.
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And then it was life-changing for me.
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It was just something that resonated with me so much because I'd had ponies
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as a child, which I'd loved, and it had been a really safe space for
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me as a child, being with my pony.
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It was never something that I did competitively.
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It was always something that I did for the love of it and for the feeling I got
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from being around the horses and you know, just the connection you have with a pony.
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That was what it was always around for me.
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So I think that's why equine-facilitated learning resonated so much because it
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was about that connection with the horse.
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Rupert Isaacson: Who, who was organizing that course?
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And what did they teach you?
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Nicola Hepburn: Well, the course was originally organized by an
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organization which no longer exists called Etain, and it was-
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Rupert Isaacson: Called what, sorry?
3:56
Nicola Hepburn: Etain Equestrian it was called.
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I d- I don't think they exist anymore.
3:59
Etain?
4:00
Etain, yeah.
4:01
Etain.
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Rupert Isaacson: E-A-I-N.
4:03
Nicola Hepburn: Etain.
4:03
Etain.
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It was a lady named Roz.
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And the the initial course was going to be run by one trainer, and then
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that person dropped out, and they found a new trainer who was Sierra
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Ow- Owall, who worked quite closely with Barbara Rector In the, in the US.
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And Barbara Rector was who ran EFMA as it was then in America, which was
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the kind of mental health part of NARA, which was their version of RDA.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay, which is now PATH, right?
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PATH International.
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Yeah,
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Nicola Hepburn: yeah.
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Right.
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So but back then they had this separate organization and Barbara Rector was
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one of the kind of pioneers, and I think America were ahead of us then.
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Mm-hmm.
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There's a lot more of the equine facilitated learning and the
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different approaches happening in America than there was in the UK.
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I think it, we had RDA but there wasn't a lot else going on here.
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And yeah, so this lady called Sierra came over and she spent a week with
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us and we were at the beautiful Unicorn Trust in Stow-on-the-Wold.
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It's an amazing venue.
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And it was just a really eye-opening and amazing experience, amazing people.
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And we just learnt kind of the very basics, the foundations of
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equine facilitated learning really.
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But it was, you know, like I say, it was a light bulb moment for me.
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It was just, yeah, this is exactly what I want to do.
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So I started then volunteering with RDA so I could get some experience
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working with people, because prior to this I'd spent a lot of time working
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with horses as a child, but I hadn't really spent much time working with
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disabled or disadvantaged people.
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So I wanted to learn more about that.
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So I did go and volunteer at RDA, and then I managed to get a job at
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a charity that worked around inclusion and they set up a project, an equine,
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one of the first equine facilitated learning projects in the UK.
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And I was the original project manager on that project.
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But I quickly found that I wanted to do my own thing, and
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I really wanted to set upâ¦
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I had a very, you know, my own thing.
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I had a very clear idea about creating an organization.
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Rupert Isaacson: What was that idea?
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What was that own thing that you clearly knew you wanted to do?
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Nicola Hepburn: I think it was very much influenced by my childhood, where
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I'd, the, the stables had been a safe space for me, and I feel, I felt like
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I wanted to recreate that environment that I'd had as a child where I'd been
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able to learn, where I'd felt safe, where I'd been able to be included.
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And you know, I just, I think it was trying to recreate a
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feeling, if that makes more sense.
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Rupert Isaacson: It does.
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Were you, so- Y- y- we, w- w- was the vision safe space and inclusion?
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Was that â¦ W- was it, was it those two things?
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Nicola Hepburn: I think initially, yeah.
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Was
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Rupert Isaacson: there more?
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Nicola Hepburn: I think at that point I, I didn't, you know, I
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didn't know as much, I wasn't as experienced as I am now, obviously.
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So I think it was, you know-
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm
7:00
â¦ Nicola Hepburn: kind
7:00
Rupert Isaacson: of- 'Cause I'd say you do a whole lot more than that now.
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And I'd say that you, you do create those safe spaces.
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You do create inclusion.
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But I know about your work, and I know it's much, much more
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three-dimensional than that.
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But these things evolve, don't they?
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So w- w- was that the original sort of simple vision, and then
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everything from there evolved?
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Yeah,
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Nicola Hepburn: I think, think the very simple vision was that I wanted to
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provide sessions to local people, and at this point I was actually working
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with adults as well as children.
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So when I first started it was more adults with learning
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difficulties that I was working with.
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And I set up a community project running out of a livery yard where I
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kept my horses, and I had I used to hire the indoor arena, and we'd ha-
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we'd have local people come in and I'd just spend an hour with them,
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and we'd do obstacle courses and, you know, spend time grooming the horses.
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And I guess, you know, sensory work, but in a different way to,
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to how Horse Boy developed it.
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And very much, very basic work with the horses, just that interaction, that
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connection with the horse on the ground.
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And that was it.
8:00
Mm.
8:00
And I was working, you know, like I say, hiring an indoor arena.
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I had two horses.
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And I was just, you know, just set up a small community project.
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A-
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Rupert Isaacson: and what did you see?
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What did you do?
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What did you achieve in the, that sort of early pilot project?
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Nicola Hepburn: Well, with the early pilot project it was very much a
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way of me finding my way of how I wanted to work with people, w-
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working out what worked well, what people enjoyed, how the sessions ran.
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Mm-hmm.
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You know, so it was very much a kind of test project I'd say to see, you
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Rupert Isaacson: know- Yeah, what did you offer them, and, and
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what, what were the takeaways?
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What did you observe?
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Nicola Hepburn: Well, at that point, you know, we were working with adults,
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and what we found was that they really enjoyed working with the horses.
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They, they found it's a lot of fun.
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We found that people were engaging in the activities and it was really holding
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people's attention, and they were finding just being with the horse really relaxing,
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and they were able to really focus.
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And so I think that was my initial kind of experience with engagement.
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Because now obviously when we're talking about education, we talk
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a lot about engagement and people being engaged in activities.
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And I think that was one of the very first learnings for me was that the
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horses really hold people's attention.
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People are really present when they're with the horses.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
9:15
So wh- when these adults were coming to you in the, in these early days,
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what, what sort of conditions or dilemmas or problems were they having?
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And w- What was your offer that gave them this engagement?
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Nicola Hepburn: I think initially it was just it was more of just
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a, a therapeutic activity that we were offering to adults who- But
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Rupert Isaacson: were these adults with, with trauma?
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Were these adults- Yeah, they were- â¦ with autism?
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Were they adults with- They- Were they veterans?
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You know, what were they?
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Nicola Hepburn: They were adults with learning difficulties, neurodiversity.
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Okay.
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So they came from, like, a local support center where they'd
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go to, like, a day center.
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Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
9:51
Nicola Hepburn: You know, the day center would bring them to us with support staff,
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and we would, you know, we'd do an hour with the horses with, with the adults.
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And-
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Rupert Isaacson: Basic activities on the ground, grooming- Grooming â¦ leading-
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Nicola Hepburn: Obstacle courses
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â¦ Rupert Isaacson: interacting
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â¦ Nicola Hepburn: interacting with the horse.
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So it was all very basic.
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It was all on the ground.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Nicola Hepburn: And we just found that people were enjoying the
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sessions, and they were, they were getting something from it.
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But it wasn't you know, there was no riding.
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It was all very, very basic on the ground.
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Mm-hmm.
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And then I think somebody who worked with children who were completely disengaged
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from education heard about what I was doing, and then we started getting
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some children coming through, and it was mostly neurodivergent young people
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who were completely out of education.
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And it was an activity to kind of get young people re-engaged
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into something, into an activity, but it was very much therapeutic.
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It wasn't education at this point.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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So y- you now are an educator, right?
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You are an educational establishment.
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Yeah.
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You are aâ¦
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What is, is, is the correct term in the UK al- an alternative provision?
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Nicola Hepburn: Yes.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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So for those listeners and, and watchers who are not British, basically what
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that means is Nicky operates effectively an alternative to school for people
11:12
who have difficulty, or are refusing, or can't, or whatever, go to school.
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And then at Nicky's place, at Equine Learning in Warwickshire, they can learn,
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sit exams, take vocational courses, and in some cases even get off to college.
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So that's a huge evolution from groups of adults with learning difficulties
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coming from a, a daycare center to- designing and operating full curriculums
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for people who, young people who are then gonna go on and get qualifications
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through you, which will allow them to then enter the workforce and so on.
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Talk us now through what you do.
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How do you, how do you, how do you organize this?
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How do you offer this?
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How do you, how do you take someone who's like, "I'm not going to school and I hate
12:01
school and I hate learning, and you can all bog off," to "Okay, I'm gonna sit
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my exams," and where am I gonna sit my exams and how am I gonna sit my exams?
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And then get off to college.
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How do you do this work?
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How do you take somebody from that almost nihilistic space and bring them along?
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Nicola Hepburn: Well, the qualifications that we do are
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mostly equine qualifications.
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So we already have people who are interested in horses.
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Mm-hmm.
12:29
So, you know, we already have something that interests the young person.
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So I think finding something that interests them is, you know,
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is â¦ That's the key point.
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So if somebody's completely disengaged from education, you know, from the
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research I did for my masters was very much around, around this, about
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how do we re-engage young people, and one of the first things is finding
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something they're interested in.
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Mm-hmm.
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So we're, we're very lucky that we have the horses, because people
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tend to be very interested in horses before they come to us.
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And then, you know, we work, we work in a person-centered way with each individual.
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So for, for some people they might need to start by coming one hour a
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week and just get used to where we are.
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For some people they might need me to go around their house and meet them before
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they will even step foot on the premises.
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They might need to come and sit in the car for half an hour and then
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drive home, and then come back the next day and get out of the car for 10
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minutes, then get back in and go home.
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It really depends on the individual.
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'Cause some people you know, we have to do quite a lot of transition
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work before we can even get them onto an education program.
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So it's about creating the right environment for, for
13:30
each individual young person.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Nicola Hepburn: And from there really the qualification side you know, we offer
13:38
them something they're interested in.
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So if they're interested in horses, they can learn about horses,
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and they can do a qualification that covers all kinds of things.
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So it will cover animal care, it will cover feeding, it will
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cover you know, grooming, it will cover tacking up, it will coverâ¦
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Some of them have riding as part of the qualification.
13:54
So but they're learning other things within that.
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So you know, there are transferable skills within those qualifications.
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So the qualifications that we offer are all work-based, so they're
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assessed through coursework.
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We don't do any exams, which is another really important part for some of-
14:09
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
14:09
So the way that they effectively pass their exams is by not sitting exams,
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but by being assessed as they go along.
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Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
14:16
Right.
14:16
So there's, there's theâ¦
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It's half practical and half theoretical.
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And so there is an element of written work.
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But for some young people, if they, if they really struggle with written
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work, we will scribe for them, or we'll collect evidence in a, in a
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way that works for that individual.
14:30
Right.
14:30
So and then we have done maths and English.
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You know, we do maths and English functional skills with young
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people as well, and that does involve sitting an exam, but we
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would invigilate that ourselves.
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They'd sit an exam in a room they're comfortable in at, at
14:42
our facility with our staff.
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So it's very, it's managed in a way that really works around their needs.
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Rupert Isaacson: So that- And if they do sit that exam, do they sit that exam
14:50
on your farm, or do you go to- Yeah.
14:53
Okay.
14:54
So they could do that with the horses and the ducks wandering by
14:57
Nicola Hepburn: Well, yeah, we tend to do it in the in the learning space that
15:00
we have because yeah, it's you know, it's a little less distracting in there.
15:04
But if they really needed to do it on the yard with the animals,
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that would be absolutely fine.
15:07
They can have animals- Okay â¦ with them in the room, you know.
15:09
We try and do it in a way where it's very person-centered.
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Rupert Isaacson: Gosh, I wish I'd done my exams that way.
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You know, I was just a- afraid of being beaten, basically.
15:17
Yeah.
15:18
Sitting there, sitting there in an overly hot, stuffy exam hall
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where we were expected to be stressed, and we were expected to
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deal with the stress, you know.
15:27
It, it's interesting how far things have come.
15:29
You know, w- what are the success stories that you've seen with
15:32
people going through this process?
15:34
What â¦ Give us some examples.
15:36
Nicola Hepburn: Well, we've worked with, with young people who've come to
15:38
us where they've been disengaged from school for some time due to health
15:41
issues or due to being a school refuser or being neurodivergent, not being
15:45
able to cope in a school environment.
15:47
And we've got several young people through level two and level three qualifications.
15:51
With one young person, she completed her level two, her level three, her maths and
15:57
her English, and went on to university.
15:59
With other young people, they've come and studied courses with us and then
16:01
gone on to other establishments to do further study or gone into the workplace.
16:05
But the qualifications offer things like part, you know, part
16:09
of the qualification might be a module around working as a team.
16:12
So it's not all necessarily horse work or learn to work with others
16:15
or understanding professional skills like timekeeping and, you know,
16:20
being able to work with other people.
16:21
So it's â¦ The qualifications are a bit broader than just horses.
16:25
So somebody could come and do a qualification with us, and it
16:28
would give them a qualification at that level that they could then
16:30
go on to study something else.
16:32
So, yeah, so the young people that come to us tend to go on to something
16:36
else or go into the workplace.
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Rupert Isaacson: And how long do they tend to stay with you?
16:40
What's the average time?
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Nicola Hepburn: Well, it's quite a long time, actually, 'cause we take a really
16:45
long time to do the qualifications 'cause we work at the pace of the student.
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So where they might go into college and do the same qualification in a year,
16:53
we might do it over two academic years.
16:55
Okay.
16:56
So w- w- it, you know, they tend to be with us for two to three years normally.
17:01
Rupert Isaacson: So, don't know why it's giving me a thumbs down.
17:03
I think it saw me do this on the side of my face.
17:05
I better do this quickly.
17:07
Let's see if it reacts to that.
17:09
Why doesn't it react to that?
17:10
Okay.
17:11
Weird.
17:11
But okay.
17:13
The young people that come to you then, you're with them for a while, so you
17:18
know that when somebody walks through your door, you're going to be with this
17:23
person for hundreds of hours, right?
17:26
It's not gonna beâ¦
17:27
It's, it's, it's gonna be quite a sort of intimate relationship in a
17:31
way because you're gonna spend so much time in each other's company.
17:35
How do you try to ensure that it's a personality fit in that case?
17:41
Like, okay, couple of questions.
17:43
What, what's the sort of number of these young people that you
17:47
would serve at any one time?
17:50
And how do you make sure that it's a fit as much as you can before
17:58
you dive into this rather, you know, immersive process with them?
18:03
Nicola Hepburn: Well, the, the number of students we have on the education
18:06
program at any one time is six.
18:08
That's our maximum number per day for the education-
18:10
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so it's really boutique.
18:12
Nicola Hepburn: It's really tiny, but obviously we do have other
18:14
projects that we run alongside that.
18:16
So we do our kind of one-hour mental health sessions, and then we have, like,
18:19
holiday clubs and other things, and then we do private work with families as well.
18:23
Mm-hmm.
18:23
So the education program is only one part of what we do.
18:27
But the education program specifically, we only work with six at a time maximum.
18:31
It's normally less than that.
18:32
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
18:33
Nicola Hepburn: Inâ¦
18:34
Before we work with the young people, we get sent their education and healthcare
18:39
plan from the local authority, and we would go through that and, you know, and
18:43
see if we can meet the needs in, thatâ¦
18:46
laid out in the plan.
18:47
And we would meet people normally before they would come, and we'd have discussions
18:51
with families, and, and then we'd say if we can offer them a place or not.
18:54
So we, we try, and we don't always get it right, you know.
18:57
It can be that sometimes somebody might come and they might, we might
19:02
not be the right provider for them.
19:04
But the only way we can really find that out sometimes is by giving it a go, you
19:09
know- Mm â¦ and enabling them to come.
19:11
Maybe start with a few sm- shorter sessions first you know,
19:15
and see, see how they, see how they get on with everybody else.
19:19
Rupert Isaacson: And, and how is it funded?
19:21
Howâ¦
19:22
Nicola Hepburn: Well, we, we do private work for, for sessions, but for theâ¦
19:26
The majority of our work is funded through the local authority.
19:29
So the local authority-
19:30
Rupert Isaacson: Education authority.
19:31
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
19:31
So they will refer young people to us who, you know, they, they feel
19:37
could benefit from coming to our more therapeutic education environment.
19:41
But we tend to work with post 16, so they tend to be 16 and above at that point.
19:46
We do work with younger students, but they would come to us
19:48
on a very part-time basis.
19:50
They would be on roll at school, and they might come to us a couple of
19:53
afternoons a week or one day a week.
19:55
Okay â¦ they, they, they're not with us full time.
19:57
We only work full time with post 16.
20:00
Rupert Isaacson: And the, this, these six at any one time, post 16s, who are going
20:05
through these qualifications with you, is that the bulk of the bread and butter
20:10
of your funding, and is that the bulk of your time and the other things are more
20:14
peripheral, or is it, like, a half/half?
20:16
The reason I ask is, you know, as someone who runs programs myself, I'm always a bit
20:20
fascinated as to how people organize it, you know, and every single place has its
20:24
own economy and ecosystem, if you like.
20:27
And I think one of the- points about doing this podcast is that a
20:32
lot of the people who are listening are people who run programs.
20:34
And we're all fascinated about how everyone else does it
20:38
because it always gives us ideas.
20:39
So would you say that the bulk of the money that funds the program comes
20:46
from that alternative education piece with that sort of boutique number of
20:50
people, and the rest is sort of somewhat peripheral, or is it the other way around?
20:55
Nicola Hepburn: I'd say at the moment the bulk of our, our income
20:58
does come through the alternative education work, absolutely.
21:01
But that has, that has been quite a conscious choice and a development
21:05
within the- Mm-hmm â¦ business.
21:06
It used to be that way.
21:08
I used to run a riding center in addition to the therapeutic
21:11
work to pay the bills, you know.
21:13
So we've, but we've now really run down the, the riding school side of things,
21:18
and we're very much now doing mostly therapeutic work and sessions, and we do
21:23
a very small amount of pony club as well.
21:25
But
21:26
Rupert Isaacson: every- Right
21:26
â¦ Nicola Hepburn: is very much the education is, is probably the
21:30
largest part of the business.
21:31
Rupert Isaacson: And is that a recent thing that education, is-
21:33
we're talking in the UK here.
21:35
Is this a recent thing that there has been this kind of budget in educational
21:41
authorities that a relatively small number of people being worked with intensively
21:45
like this could actually, you know, pay a bunch of staff and keep a, you
21:52
know, an alternative provision going?
21:53
Or has that sort of always been there?
21:55
Because it seems to me that when I first met you back in the early 2000s,
21:59
you didn't hear so much about this.
22:01
It seems that this is something that sort of evolved over time.
22:04
Would that be right?
22:06
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, I would say so.
22:07
I think you know, I'm thinking back to when I first met you, we were very much
22:11
then running, you know, riding lessons.
22:13
We were doing the therapeutic sessions, and we were doing
22:17
camps and things like that.
22:19
And that was very much, and the work with the local authority was there,
22:22
but it was on a much smaller basis, and we had- Mm-hmm â¦ sessions.
22:26
I think there were other projects that were perhaps having more work
22:29
with the local authority then, but we, we definitely weren't.
22:32
I would say this is something that has evolved, but we've had to tender for the
22:36
work we have with the local authority.
22:38
So the, the tendering system is where they will, you know, the, the local
22:42
authority will put out a tender on, on, on a online portal, and you have
22:45
to actually write a bit for the work.
22:47
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I see.
22:48
Nicola Hepburn: So it's not the-
22:49
Rupert Isaacson: Almost like you're a builder offering, you
22:51
know, do- Okay â¦ putting the roof on the town hall type thing.
22:54
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
22:55
So the, you have to know where to look for the projects, and then you write a tender,
23:00
you know, to try and meet those needs.
23:02
So if it's, like, education for young people, you know, you would
23:05
then write a tender and, and bid to the local authority, and
23:07
then they can choose you or not.
23:09
So you have to be able to meet their criteria.
23:11
And
23:11
Rupert Isaacson: we have- And how do you learn, how do you
23:12
learn how to write those tenders?
23:13
I mean, that's a fairly specialist thing, no?
23:16
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
23:16
Well, I think, you know, obviously when I was younger, I did work
23:19
for a national charity as fundra- Okay â¦ marketing briefly, and
23:23
that, that did really help me.
23:24
That gave me skills, and it gave me an understanding of how the
23:27
tendering systems and charities work.
23:29
So I think I was able to, to learn some of those skills then but I
23:34
think really anybody can do it.
23:36
It's just about being able to know that the work is there, know how to
23:40
tender, and then, you know, learn to answer the questions in a way that meet
23:44
the criteria that they're looking for.
23:45
So it's about reading what the criteria is.
23:47
It's the same kind of thing as doing a funding application where you read the
23:50
criteria, what is it they're looking for?
23:53
Can we meet this?
23:54
How are we gonna meet this?
23:55
And making sure that you're wording it in a way that meets the criteria.
24:00
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
24:01
That's a, as you say, that's a skill.
24:03
And you know, when, when I was first starting in this work, it was all about
24:08
either getting donations or grant writing or providing services through, through,
24:13
you know, which people paid directly.
24:15
All the stuff that you described in the early years.
24:18
Did youâ¦
24:20
When you became aware that there were these tenders what was
24:23
the learning process for you?
24:25
I, I think people listening to this will be fascinated 'cause
24:27
it's a bit like a tutor- Let's say this podcast was a tutorial.
24:30
You're giving a tutorial now on how you locate and then bid.
24:37
Talk us through that.
24:38
How, how do you locate these tenders, and then how do you put your tender in?
24:43
Nicola Hepburn: Well, each local authority will have a tendering
24:45
portal for, for everything.
24:46
Like you were saying for the building work, for, for anything that they're
24:50
tendering for, there will be a portal for each local authority.
24:52
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, you would, let's say it was me and I was
24:54
starting off in Warwickshire like you.
24:56
Yeah.
24:57
I would go on the, my local education authority website and
25:02
look for, what would I type in?
25:05
Nicola Hepburn: I think you would just put in like, local authority
25:08
tendering portal or tendering opportunities- Okay â¦ and that would
25:13
lead you onto the tendering portal.
25:15
And there you would register an account, and then you can, you can ex-
25:19
put in an expression of interest for any projects that are available that
25:22
you're interested in tendering for.
25:24
But sometimes the local authority might contact organizations as well.
25:29
So you know, for example, the mental health sessions that we do, they
25:32
actually contacted us and said, "We're putting this tender out.
25:35
Would you like to bid for it?"
25:37
But obviously we're already known to the local authority at this point.
25:38
Right.
25:38
So I think it's about getting your foot in the door with local
25:43
authorities as well and meeting, you know, speaking to the right people.
25:47
So I think it, for an organization-
25:48
Rupert Isaacson: How do you, how do you do that?
25:49
How, how do you reachâ¦
25:50
How do you even know who to reach out to?
25:52
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think if it was somebody who's interested specifically
25:54
in working with young people, you know, you could contact Children's Services and
25:58
say, you know, "We're an organization.
26:00
This is what we're doing.
26:01
Can you put me in touch with somebody?"
26:03
You know, and, and make an introduction that way.
26:06
But very much the, the tendering process is about looking online, seeing what
26:09
the, what's available, and then just, you know, asking for all the paperwork
26:13
and reading it very, very carefully.
26:15
And then being realistic as well, because I think at times I put in for tenders
26:20
that we weren't ready for, you know, with local authorities when we were,
26:25
when we were a much younger organization.
26:26
I would tender forâ¦
26:27
You know, there were tenders that I didn't get.
26:29
So I think you have to be prepared to maybe not necessarily get every one,
26:35
and just learn from the process and, you know, tender for things that are
26:40
really, you really can deliver as well.
26:43
Rupert Isaacson: Are there always tenders going out?
26:44
Like, or do you sometimes go on that website and there are none?
26:48
Nicola Hepburn: Well, yeah.
26:49
I mean, th- they're not always ones that we would be suitable for.
26:52
So- But
26:53
Rupert Isaacson: there's always something being tendered for?
26:55
Nicola Hepburn: There's usually something being tendered for, yeah.
26:57
Okay.
26:57
'Cause some of them are residential, so there may be other organizations that have
27:00
residential opportunities and could do, you know, short breaks or respite orâ¦
27:06
There's lots of other opportunities, but it's just about finding the ones
27:09
that are relevant to your specific organization that you can deliver.
27:13
Rupert Isaacson: Have youâ¦
27:14
Can you just give us a couple of examples about where you went wrong with that?
27:17
Like, y- y- you said there were some you didn't get, but I could also imagine you
27:21
might get one and then have, "Oh dear, I guess I can't really deliver this."
27:26
Like, I'm sure both things could happen.
27:28
Could you talk us through- Any times that that has happened to
27:32
you and, and kind of what you did.
27:33
How did you retrieve that?
27:35
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I put in a big tender quite early on with a, a
27:38
local authority that wasn't our local authority, but was a neighboring
27:42
local authority that was very close to the first yard that we had.
27:45
And it was for short breaks for children, and I, I did spend a long time writing
27:51
that tender, but in the end they came back to us and said, "Well, because you're
27:56
just out of county, we're not gonna use you 'cause we only wanna use projects
27:58
that are within our county boundaries."
28:00
So had I asked that question- prior to submitting the tender, it
28:05
would have saved me a lot of work.
28:06
Mm.
28:07
Rupert Isaacson: But,
28:07
Nicola Hepburn: but going through the process and writing it in
28:09
itself was a useful exercise.
28:11
Right.
28:11
So I didn't see it as a wasted exercise.
28:13
But you've got to remember, by this point I was already fundraising.
28:16
You know, the center we have now, obviously I fundraised
28:20
for all the facilities.
28:21
So, you know, writing bids and, and being tenacious is really important
28:26
because y- you're not gonna get everything straight away, and you've
28:30
got to have absolute faith that if you keep going, that you will.
28:33
You know, you will get funding, and you will get tenders, but you just
28:36
have to, you know, meet the criteria, and it has to be the right one.
28:40
Mm.
28:41
My advice to anybody would be, you know, be tenacious about it.
28:44
Don't give up at the first hurdle because this is a, a hard industry to
28:48
work in, and it takes a lot of hard work to, to get funding and to get tenders.
28:53
But once you do, it really does make a difference to being able to
28:57
deliver with the local authority.
28:58
Makes a big difference to how your organization runs.
29:01
Rupert Isaacson: Did you ever get a tender and then realize you'd
29:03
bitten off more than you could chew?
29:05
Nicola Hepburn: I'm gonna say no.
29:08
I, I've got tenders and then realized it's a lot more administration
29:12
than I realized it was going to be.
29:13
Because obviously when you're, when you're accountable for public money
29:18
and the, the local authority are paying you for services, there's a huge
29:21
amount of admin that comes with them.
29:23
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
29:23
Nicola Hepburn: So where you're running sessions with local families and they're
29:26
paying you, you know, you might have a bit of paperwork to fill in with them,
29:30
but y- and you might keep some monitoring, you know, progress and things like that.
29:35
But with the local authority, it's much more intense because you
29:39
have to be able to prove that what you're doing is making a difference.
29:42
Mm-hmm.
29:42
So they want to see a lot of feedback.
29:44
They want to see feedback from the families.
29:46
They want toâ¦
29:47
You know, they've got to justify how they're spending their money.
29:50
So you have to be able to meet their administration needs and
29:52
say, "Yes, this is what we've done.
29:54
This is how well we've done.
29:55
This is what's worked," you know, and be able to deliver good quality
30:00
provision that's worth their while.
30:03
Rupert Isaacson: I think for a lot of people, yeah, I, I, I've certainly found
30:05
this when I was working a lot in Texas I didn't really go out to local authorities.
30:10
I didn't really let people know so much that I wasâ¦
30:14
I did a little bit, you know.
30:15
I went to our local school.
30:16
I did a couple of things like that.
30:19
But because there was no public money really available, I think
30:22
it may have changed now I did all my fundraising sort of grassroots.
30:27
And then gradually of course organizations contacted us and said,
30:31
"Oh, you know, we're this foster care thing," or, "We're this first
30:36
responders organization," or, "We're this," you know, "We have this need.
30:40
Can you, can you do it?"
30:42
And we would- generally say yes.
30:45
Partly because we have a lot of trouble saying no.
30:48
But also because we were curious.
30:50
And in a funny way, I think we were willing to fail.
30:53
I, I do thinkâ¦
30:54
I guess that's what I was driving at with, with those questions.
30:57
I, I
31:01
Worry that sometimes when I'm giving trainings to people in, you know, our
31:05
qualifications, Horse Boy Method and Movement Method and TAKIN, that people
31:11
are naturally from a very good place, very, very anxious to get it right.
31:16
And of course, this isn't always gonna happen.
31:20
And as you say, you know, sometimes when you don't get something,
31:24
it's a good learning process.
31:25
But also sometimes when you sort of get your ass handed to you by a
31:30
particular individual or a particular child or a particular situation, it
31:34
deepens, of course, your practice.
31:37
And the next time-- And you go away and you think about it, and you talk it
31:40
through with your team and, and so on.
31:42
And I think for a lot of people that are listening to this show, a lot of them
31:48
have been through that process or are going through that process or perhaps
31:51
are on the cusp of that process and sort of, you know, nervously putting their
31:54
toe in the first waters of watching the sharks swim, you know, in front of them.
31:58
Talk us through your experience a little bit with
32:06
When you feel that you're getting it wrong, and then what do
32:10
you do with that information?
32:13
Because, you know, you've been in the game now 20 years or so.
32:19
Mm-hmm.
32:19
You know, one looks up, and it's gone like that.
32:22
But you've got a lot of wisdom to impart.
32:24
You've, you've weathered many, many storms like all organizations have,
32:28
and each time you pop up stronger.
32:31
I- i- without going into detail that, you know, makes you uncomfortable
32:39
disclosing stuff about other people, can you just give us a sort of general
32:42
sense of sometimes when you felt, "Oh, I messed up on that one," and then
32:48
what you did with that, and then how you took that into the next situation?
32:51
I think that this kind of thing's always useful for us.
32:54
Nicola Hepburn: I mean, are we, are we talking about people or
32:58
the organization in general?
32:59
Rupert Isaacson: I think both.
33:00
You know, just the- Okay â¦ the, the situations that spring to mind.
33:03
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think, you know, early on we hadâ¦
33:05
You, you will know we, we had struggled to find landlords where we could stay for
33:10
a length of time, and, you know- Right
33:12
a lot of people are in a situation where they don't own land, and you have to
33:15
Rupert Isaacson: rent.
33:15
Mm.
33:16
Nicola Hepburn: And that can be really tricky because every single land
33:20
we've, you know, every- everywhere we've been, we've invested money.
33:23
We've fundraised.
33:24
We've invested money.
33:25
So you'll know the, you'll remember the very first yard we were at, we had that
33:28
tiny little indoor arena that was- Mm
33:30
18.
33:30
It
33:33
was, oh, it was tiny.
33:34
It was, like, 12 meters by 18 meters or something, and we converted that barn
33:40
into the smallest indoor arena in the UK.
33:43
It was, like, tiny.
33:44
It was this tiny little barn, and we, you know, but we spent a lot of
33:47
money on that yard, and then things didn't work out with the landlords.
33:50
And then we moved to another bigger premises, and then perhaps at that point
33:54
we'd got somewhere that was too big for what we were ready for, and we were then
33:57
reliant on livery money for, you know, to, to rent out half the yard as livery.
34:01
And then we were on the other yard, and then we had, then we had to
34:04
kind of manage doing livery with the yard, and then that didn't work out.
34:08
And then we moved from there, and we struggled to find somewhere else.
34:11
And I don't know if you remember at that point, we'd, we'd fundraised, I think
34:15
about Â£50,000 to build an arena, and it was a huge, it was the biggest funding
34:19
we'd ever got, and I was so excited.
34:21
And we had this funding, and then we lost our property.
34:23
And then the property we were moving into also fell through, and I was
34:27
suddenly stuck with 20 horses and nowhere to go, and this, you know, this,
34:32
this big, huge problem in front of us.
34:35
And I think that was actually when I came out to Texas and did some training
34:38
with you at that point, and came out and did the working student program.
34:41
And it was just a complete reset for me at that point, because it was either,
34:47
you know, I was either gonna do it or I was gonna give up , you know?
34:50
Because everything had suddenly become incredibly difficult.
34:53
And I think, you know, i- it was a, a time for me where I was really able to realize
34:58
that I had such a, a passion for the work, and that it really meant so much to me.
35:02
And I was able to then come back, find a new premises, which is
35:05
where we still are now, in fact.
35:06
We've been there for 12 years.
35:08
And I was able to reapply for funding, get an even bigger amount, build
35:13
the equestrian center, you know.
35:15
And so I think in that situation it was just very much about regrouping
35:18
and realizing, "Why am I doing this?
35:19
Why do I do this?
35:21
What am I doing it for?"
35:23
And I think it has to be for the love of the work, and it has to be because
35:26
you're passionate about wanting to make a difference to people.
35:29
Mm-hmm.
35:29
And be really passionate about what you're doing in order to have that tenacity, to
35:33
have that drive, to keep things going when it gets hard, because it does get hard.
35:37
Especially if you're renting, especially if, you know, funding is difficult and
35:42
you're having to pay your staff above yourself and things like that, you know.
35:46
It's, it's not an easy industry to, to work in, and the equine
35:50
industry in general, I think, canâ¦
35:52
Is, is a difficult industry.
35:55
So I think for me it's about holding onto that passion and holding onto
35:58
that belief, and really doing things because you, you really want to do it
36:03
and you really wanna make a difference.
36:05
You have to be incredibly
36:06
Rupert Isaacson: passionate
36:06
Nicola Hepburn: about the work, I think.
36:08
Rupert Isaacson: A- and now, I mean, I would say, I, I you're
36:11
reminding me, I remember all these crises and you weathering them.
36:15
And year to year, still providing services.
36:20
And I think your point is really good, that most of the people that
36:23
get into this vocationally do not come from land-owning families.
36:28
Nor do they start with- A couple of million to go and
36:33
buy and develop a property.
36:35
I'd say that's the vast majority, you know, of us.
36:38
So we, we might make that money later, or we might raise that money
36:44
later, but we don't start that way.
36:47
You know, with Horse Boy, we started with the little bit of land that came with
36:52
the house that I lived in in Texas, and then I rented my neighbor's 10 acres.
36:58
But there were times when his wife felt that we were an onerous presence and
37:04
would threaten to kick us off, and we were always dealing with that insecurity.
37:09
And it's interesting when people look at the history of Horse Boy and say, "Well,
37:12
you know, it just kind of evolved, and then it went from strength to strength."
37:15
I say, "Well, yeah and there were many moments of oops and ah, and whoa, and,
37:22
you know, and, and why are we doing this?"
37:26
And as you say, it always came down to the passion.
37:29
Now, obviously, for me, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, an autism dad, but you know, there w-
37:35
I could have at some point said, "Well, fine, I'll just work with my own child."
37:39
But I always felt that I couldn't do that because we had stumbled into a
37:43
technology that worked for others, and there were just so many other parents
37:46
out there in my position who were lost, that if I didn't make this available,
37:52
then shame on me sort of thing.
37:54
But you've now, I'd say that the property that you're in is about
38:00
as perfect as it could possibly be.
38:03
Could you walk us through this property and the different things that it offers?
38:09
Because I think, again, that's a really helpful thing for listeners and watchers
38:15
to know that, okay, you went from effectively homeless to this over time.
38:23
Tell us about your current, your, where, where you've been for the
38:25
last decade and a, and a bit.
38:27
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
38:28
Well, where I am now is Wootton Park, which is a, a, a private estate out
38:32
in the Warwickshire countryside.
38:33
It's really, you know, a really beautiful site.
38:36
There were about 300 acres.
38:37
I think now there's probably about 150 acres of land.
38:41
There's a wedding venue there.
38:43
There's you know, a big farmhouse where they do accommodations, offices.
38:46
So basically the farm used to be a working farm and then it got
38:50
converted and all the buildings have been converted for different uses.
38:54
And it's owned by a family and the, you know, there's, there's various
38:58
different businesses on site.
38:59
So when I first went to Wootton Park, I rented a five-acre paddock and an arena.
39:04
So it was originally because we were running camps that I went there.
39:07
So I was looking for somewhere where I could run camps.
39:10
I'd come back, I'd run camps on a yurt site in Devon for the
39:13
summer, and then I'd come back.
39:15
I'd taken all my horses to Devon for the summer, 20-odd horses to Devon,
39:19
and then we brought them all back to Warwickshire, and I was renting a field.
39:22
And this was the year I came back from Texas, and I was like, "Well,
39:24
what, what are we gonna do now?
39:26
Where am I gonna go?"
39:27
And I'd seen this, this estate, and I contacted the owner and
39:31
said, "You know, they, I'm looking for somewhere to run camps."
39:33
And I saw that they had glamping pods.
39:35
And I said, "You know, can I please, you know, can you let me know more
39:38
information about the glamping pods?
39:40
'Cause I'd like to run these camps.
39:41
I'm looking for a, a, you know, a venue where I could take
39:44
horses and run the camps."
39:46
And they said, "Well, we, we've also got a paddock and an outdoor arena.
39:49
Would this be of interest to you?"
39:51
And I said, "Yeah, I'll be there this afternoon," and
39:54
just sort of went and met them.
39:56
And you know, I was very lucky.
39:57
They were really interested in what I was doing, and they were really lovely people.
40:01
And so that was how it started where I am now.
40:03
I rented a paddock, and we started running camps there.
40:06
But the rest of my horses were kept in the village, and I used to have to box them
40:10
back and forth as we needed to use them.
40:13
And I started off by putting up two stables and a tack room, and then
40:18
applied for a license and then we were able to operate from that point.
40:21
But back then, we used to do most of the sessions out around
40:24
the farm through the woodland.
40:26
And everything was really based on the farm.
40:28
We did have a, a small wood chip arena- Mm
40:30
but very much the, the farm was the therapeutic environment, and
40:35
we did everything out, you know, around the tracks and in the woods.
40:39
So- I
40:39
Rupert Isaacson: mean, I, and to some, some degree, it sort of still is, right?
40:42
You've got amazing trails through- Yeah â¦ these fields and, and these farms.
40:45
I think a lot of, a lot of people would drool to have the
40:48
kind of trail opportunities that you, you guys have there.
40:52
You s- I know you now have a very nice arena and a, and a covered round pen,
40:56
but- W- have you, do you keep the practice of taking the kids out into nature?
41:02
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, very much so.
41:04
You know, at the moment we're running our summer activities, and we do,
41:07
we do some riding, you know, out on trails, and then we're off in the
41:10
woods stem building and pond dipping and doing those kinds of activities.
41:14
So the site has got lakes.
41:16
There's wakeboarding, there's paddleboarding, there's now a sauna.
41:18
I mean, this has all developed over time, that it wasn't all- Mm â¦ first started.
41:23
You know, so I think for me it was very much about finding the right place.
41:26
And I think initially when you start out, you might have an idea in your head
41:30
that you need a stable yard, and you need to have stables, and you need an arena.
41:35
But actually, when I went to Wootton Park, we had a paddock.
41:38
Yeah, we did have a small wood chip outdoor arena, but it was the rest
41:41
of the site that was so perfect.
41:43
It was the woodland, it was the trails, it was the fact there was glamping there.
41:47
So I would say for people who are looking for premises, really look outside the box.
41:52
Approach people.
41:52
Don't just think, "Oh, I must rent a stable yard."
41:55
It's about finding a- the property that has something else to offer.
41:58
Because you can build stables, you can put in an arena, but you
42:02
can't recreate that environment.
42:04
And I think the environment there is so perfect because it's just a beautiful
42:08
site, you know, really there's no, there's nothing around it, really.
42:12
It's very much in the middle of the countryside and, you know, we're very
42:17
fortunate that we have the glamping there.
42:18
We have the lakes.
42:20
You know, we have the, the offices there as well, so we're able to
42:23
do our learning in a, in a, well, we don't call it a classroom, we
42:26
just call it a learning space.
42:27
So we rent an office- In
42:28
Rupert Isaacson: an old barn.
42:29
Yeah, right.
42:29
Exactly.
42:30
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
42:30
It's been converted.
42:31
Barn conversion.
42:31
So we're very lucky that we have everything that we need on site.
42:34
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you, the, the, it, this thing of also look-
42:38
thinking beyond horses, I'm always trying to prevail upon people in
42:41
the equine assisted thing to, to do.
42:44
Like you've got the, there's, there's this wakeboarding, set of wakeboarding
42:47
lakes, which are right adjacent to your stable, the arena and so on, soâ¦
42:53
And I've taken my own children there so that they could, for example, go do the
42:58
water activities which have all their own, you know, neuroscience benefits.
43:04
And, you know, Rowan, my autistic son, has been served there very, very well.
43:09
And then one could then go across to you, to the horses and b- back
43:13
and forth and out, as you say, to, to the, to the trails, to the woods.
43:18
And then there's glamping, et cetera.
43:19
So when I was first beginning with Rowan we had no facilities.
43:24
We just had field, horse We didn't even have trails.
43:30
I had to go because it was Texas, you get shot if you go on other people's land.
43:34
So what I did is I went around to other local landowners and said, "Is it possible
43:40
for me to come ride on your property?"
43:41
And a whole bunch of them, of course, said no.
43:43
But when I explained what I wanted to do, these are all places where
43:47
I could ride to, not put a horse in a trailer a small, very, very small
43:54
group said, "Yeah, okay, we get it."
43:56
And what resulted was hundreds of acres of exploration wi- and creeks and deer
44:04
and porcupines and armadillos and wild hogs and bobcats and incredible bird
44:12
life and tree species, and all these things which I didn't own but because
44:19
people got the reason why we wanted to access, and I was careful not to
44:24
use any one trail too many times in a month, so we weren't too heavy of a
44:29
footprint we could piece this together.
44:33
And then later, you know, as you know, we, we eventually put in arenas, and we
44:37
put in a covered arena, and we did one.
44:39
We acquired more land as we raised money.
44:41
But I'd say that the hardcore of the work that we did was
44:45
always really in that sort ofâ¦
44:47
Oh, look, there's that thumb size.
44:48
Every time I do this it does this weird thumbs down.
44:50
It's like I gotta stop do- I gotta do this instead.
44:53
Look, look, see, see if that works.
44:54
But it's funny, whenever I do the thumb up there, it doesn't give me a thumb up.
44:56
Is there some sort of negative bias on Zoom or something?
45:00
Very weird.
45:01
Okay, I'll just keep my thumb away from my face.
45:03
So a lot of it, I guess, was about outreach and community.
45:12
And in Texas, I was always surprised when people would say yes that we could
45:16
go on their land, 'cause people are terrified they're being sued, right?
45:19
So it really took a lot of trust, and I did actually lose one set of
45:23
pastures because eventually a guy said, "I'm just too worried that you might
45:26
fall off with your kid and sue me."
45:29
And there wasn't much I could say to that you know, other than an empty promise.
45:33
But- I'm also like a massive hippie, and so I stood out like a bit of a sore thumb
45:40
in that very conservative area of Texas.
45:43
And most of my neighbors that I was asking for access on their land would normally
45:50
not like somebody like me on site.
45:53
But because I sort of went very directly and said what it was for, and then I
46:01
suppose a bit like a master of, of, of foxhounds or something, I would
46:04
make sure that ev- every few months I would show up with bottles of whiskey.
46:08
I would show up with crates of beer and sit and drink with them, and
46:13
they also knew that I knew about farming, I knew about ranching, 'cause
46:16
that is my family, so I couldâ¦
46:17
I knew about hunting.
46:19
We could establish a sort of tribe, tribal feeling that really
46:23
allowed the project to flourish.
46:27
And I think in a funny way, that's what you've done, too.
46:29
If y- y- y- even though there were difficulties with certain places on
46:35
this evolution, it seems that what you've really excelled at is being
46:39
able to reach out within your community and say, "Hey, look, there is a
46:46
mission here, and there's a need here.
46:48
Can you help me to fulfill this need?"
46:51
'Cause it sort of could be your c- your nephew, your grandkid, your, you knowâ¦
46:56
W- what do you say to people who areâ¦
46:59
A lot of people are very shy.
47:00
A lot of people are
47:04
Afraid of rejection, afraid of judgment.
47:08
What, what do you s- and I know y- you yourself are quite shy, you know,
47:12
yet you always push through and do it.
47:14
W- how do you get over that?
47:15
How, how do you, how, what's your advice to people who are hovering
47:18
on that brink, going, "Well, how, how do I build that community?"
47:22
Nicola Hepburn: I think the worst thing that people can do is say no.
47:25
So if somebody says no, you haven't lost anything.
47:27
Mm.
47:27
And I, you know, for me, I, I was very aware that what I was looking for wasn't
47:31
necessarily going to just land in my lap.
47:35
It was very much, you know, I had to get out and find it.
47:37
And, and I think when you tell people about the work and you tell people
47:40
what you want to do, generally, even if they're not interested, they'll say,
47:45
"Oh, have you tried such and such?"
47:46
Or, you know, I think the farming community, they all
47:49
know each other as well.
47:50
A lot of the landowners know each other.
47:52
So even if you go to one landowner and they say no, they might point you
47:55
in the direction of somebody else.
47:57
So I think it's about just getting over it, really.
47:59
Getting over your shyness and just putting yourself out there, because anything
48:02
that's worth doing takes hard work and takes, you know, y- you have to be able
48:08
to get over yourself, really, and just- W-
48:11
Rupert Isaacson: would you actually drive up people's driveâ¦
48:12
Look, Snaps doing that thing again.
48:13
W- would you, would you, would you drive up people's driveways and
48:16
actually knock on their door or-
48:18
Nicola Hepburn: I, mm, I have- Yeah â¦ done that, yeah.
48:21
And, you know, with the, the site I am now, I contacted them.
48:24
It was speculative.
48:25
Yeah.
48:25
I contacted them and said, you know, "Would you be interested in this?
48:29
Is this something we could run at your property?"
48:31
And it-
48:31
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
48:31
Nicola Hepburn: And you know, like I say, as it happened initially, I
48:35
was just renting a pa- a paddock, and the arena were running camps here,
48:38
and all my horses were in a different field in the village that I rented.
48:41
So it, look, it wasn't the ideal setup initially, but then as time went on and
48:46
the camps were successful and we got this funding bid, you know, I managed to
48:50
get this funding bid to build an arena.
48:51
It was then I was able to go to them and say, "Look, I've got this
48:53
funding, you know, I wanna stay here.
48:55
Can we work with you?"
48:56
And I was very lucky that they were people who were open to new ideas
49:01
and creative people themselves.
49:03
Mm.
49:03
And, you know, people who'd converted their whole farm and had vision.
49:08
You know, so I was, I was lucky that I, you know, I met the right people who
49:11
were able to support what I was doing.
49:13
But I was running the business for probably eight years prior to that before
49:18
I managed to find that right place.
49:21
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
49:23
considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
49:27
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
49:32
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
49:38
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
49:44
developed in conjunction with Dr.
49:47
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
49:50
We work in the saddle with younger children.
49:54
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
50:00
It works incredibly well.
50:01
It's now in about 40 countries.
50:03
Check it out.
50:05
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
50:09
method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
50:12
applied in schools, in homes.
50:14
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
50:19
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
50:22
when they're not with you.
50:24
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
50:28
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
50:30
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
50:34
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
50:39
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
50:43
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
50:47
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
50:51
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
50:55
need, as well as Serving my clients.
50:58
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
51:03
absolutely gives you this.
51:04
Right.
51:05
And you, as you say, you reached out to them.
51:07
I th- I think one of the, the hardest things to get over, because
51:12
we're all just conditioned not to do it, is to simply go and ask
51:21
It w- could we do this?
51:23
And as you say, the worst thing that someone can do i- is, is no, is say no,
51:27
and that, that certainly doesn't kill you.
51:29
And then as you also say, that some- sometimes they say, "No,
51:32
but you could try so and so."
51:35
Then another thing I've often found too is they might say no now, but
51:40
for some reason when you ask ag- keep asking, because things change.
51:45
Y- youâ¦
51:46
People's brains change, people's personalities change, people's economic
51:50
circumstances change, and so i- it's often good to check in, I feel.
51:54
And, and w- sometimes it can even happen spontaneously.
51:58
Iâ¦
51:58
Theâ¦
51:59
One of the properties that we used to ride on, I don't know if you remember,
52:02
it was called the A&L Ranch in Texas.
52:04
Yeah, I do.
52:04
And owned by Big Al who was like a, a major character, and not
52:09
someone to get on the wrong side of.
52:10
But if he was on your side, amazing, amazing bloke.
52:13
And when I first went and asked if we could access that land, which had,
52:18
if you remember those, that beautiful creek with those mature pecan, old
52:23
pecan groves on it, it's so beautiful.
52:26
It was actually his dad, who I think was probably in his late 80s or
52:29
early 90s who was still running it, and I remember him looking at me and
52:33
just thinking, "Who is this hippie?"
52:35
And when I asked him, you know, "Could we do this?"
52:39
He was like, "Why?
52:40
Why do you wanna come on my land?
52:41
Now, are you bringing a metal detector?
52:43
Are you, are you bringing guns?
52:44
Are you, are youâ¦
52:45
What are you looking for?
52:46
Like, what are youâ¦
52:47
You, you wanna hunt something?
52:48
You wanna find something?
52:49
Like, what have I got on my land that you want that I don't know about you?"
52:52
And it was so weird.
52:53
I was like, "No, I'm just British and we like to go for walks on the countryside."
52:59
And he's like, he's like, "Well, you know, you can pretty much get
53:01
everywhere you want to in a truck."
53:02
I'm like, "Yeah, but that's not what I wanna do.
53:06
And anyway, I've got this autistic kid andâ¦"
53:08
And okay, fine, he said no.
53:10
But I remember being in the bath about three years later, and there's this
53:14
knock on the door, and I got out of the bath, you know, get a bathrobe
53:18
on, answer the door, and it was his son who'd been there in the background
53:22
as a mature, you know, sort of grown man son, but hadn't said a word.
53:28
Obviously, the old man was a bit of a tyrant And he said, "The old man's dead.
53:33
You can come on any time you want."
53:35
And that was Big Al, you know, who then was, like, one of
53:39
our staunchest supporters.
53:40
But if I'd never gone and asked, and if I hadn't gone through that initial refusal-
53:45
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah
53:46
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and I, I guess it, it, there's a thing too that one
53:48
has to find it in one's heart not to judge or feel bitter or angry for
53:52
the people that do refuse you because you, they're always teaching you
53:56
something, and you never know but that something's not gonna come through that-
54:04
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah
54:04
Rupert Isaacson: if you can keep your heart open.
54:06
But obviously that can be difficult when you're feeling
54:08
stressed and desperate, you know.
54:11
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
54:11
I think so, definitely.
54:12
I mean, I, yeah, I mean, that ranch in Texas, I remember riding on.
54:15
It was so amazing with all the wildflowers as well.
54:16
It was so â¦ 'Cause I was always really shocked that there
54:19
were so many flowers in Texas.
54:20
I always imagined it to be really dry, and it was, yeah, it was very beautiful.
54:24
But I think, yeah, I think it's definitely a case of, you know, not being afraid
54:29
of people to say no, and they have the right to say no at the end of the day.
54:32
If they don't want you there, they don't want
54:34
Rupert Isaacson: you
54:34
Nicola Hepburn: on- Mm â¦ and, but I'd, I found that most people
54:38
when you ask them and they say no, they're really polite about it.
54:40
I, you know, I don't think anybody has ever been offended by me asking.
54:44
Yeah.
54:45
And I think if I hadn't have asked, and that was how I found
54:47
my first property, you know, the, the one with the very small arena.
54:51
That was, you know, I had to spend, I spent months and months and months and
54:55
months searching for that and knocking on doors and asking people because
54:59
I, you know, I was operating out of a liveryard like I say, initially.
55:01
So it was, I think most of the properties
55:06
I've had you know, I've had to be, I've really had to put
55:08
myself out there for them.
55:09
So I think, yeah, I d- I don't think people mind you asking at all.
55:15
Rupert Isaacson: And then you end up with the perfect property, and
55:17
then of course you have the â¦ And, and, and you get your funding, and
55:21
you get all that, and then you have to deliver the service and which of
55:23
course you were always doing anyway.
55:25
Let's talk about this a little bit because I think you being 20 years in
55:30
both of us, you know, 20 years in, we've o- obviously seen a lot of different w-
55:38
challenges of delivering the service.
55:41
I think, I think a lot of people feel that, oh, well, you're delivering this
55:45
wonderful service, and people will just sort of show up and be very happy
55:48
and very grateful, and, you know, or, and, and of course it's not the case.
55:52
When we were-
55:55
Operating out of Texas.
55:56
You know, as you know, I, I did the first decade of our services completely free
56:01
of charge because I'd been so broke when Rowan's diagnosis had come that I felt
56:08
this real obligation to try to give the services free or massively subsidized.
56:15
And r- in retrospect, I realized that was actually a mistake that what happened
56:21
was I created massive entitlement, and people often didn't value what we were
56:26
offering, and we would be bending over backwards providing incredible play dates
56:30
where p- kids were not just becoming verbal, but we were as, like you, getting
56:35
them their academic skills and all this and being with this really inventive
56:39
staff and, you know, brilliant minds working for us who were really working
56:45
on behalf of these, of these families.
56:48
And w- after a while, you know, it was, it was weird.
56:50
We could really tell we-- it just wasn't really valued.
56:54
And more than that, I almost became afraid of some of the clients that we
56:59
had because the sense of entitlement meant that sometimes they could be quite
57:03
aggressive, and that's like, wow, you know, we could get sued here, you know.
57:07
And that's weird.
57:08
And, and then, so when I got to Germany, I switched the model and
57:13
said, "No, we will charge, but I can, of course, give scholarships.
57:18
But if I give scholarships, they could be free or they could be subsidized or they
57:23
could be to this, but there will now be a sort of official process that people
57:28
need to go through in order to get that scholarship, and it will be a minority."
57:33
And weirdly, that worked so much better.
57:36
People really valued what we did so much more.
57:40
What's been your experience with this, and what's your advice to people
57:46
going into it, you know, vocationally?
57:48
Because when you and I first began, we almost had to, you
57:51
know, pay to do the work.
57:53
You know, it was a real labor of love.
57:55
We, you know, we ran broke doing it a lot of the time.
57:57
Now, there really is a lot of government money out there.
58:00
Things have changed.
58:01
Thank God, it's a good, it's a good thing, and it's now become a sort
58:04
of viable career path for people to go into equine-assisted stuff.
58:08
But I think a lot of people don't understand some of the challenges that
58:10
might be waiting for them when they do it.
58:12
Can you talk us through that a little bit?
58:14
You know, again, you don't have to Give too many details, but I think, I think
58:19
this type of wisdom is needed for people that are gonna go into the field I
58:24
Nicola Hepburn: think, you know, for a lot of people it is a passion
58:27
that's come from personal experience.
58:29
So for you, you know, with Rowan it was very personal to you.
58:32
I think with me, you know, I was a homeless teenager and I, you
58:36
know, I lived in a homeless hostel for a while when I was a teenager.
58:39
And so I think perhaps I didn't realize at the time, but I was trying to
58:42
create service that I needed or I would have needed at that point in my life.
58:48
And so I think, you know, when you have that passion for the work and
58:51
you're trying to create something that's so personal to you, and I think
58:54
a lot of people who go into this field have had personal experience which
58:59
in their lives which has led them to want to make a difference to other people.
59:03
And when you approach it from that place, it becomes a, a passion project and you
59:07
want every family who comes through the door to benefit and you want everybody to
59:11
leave feeling better than they came in.
59:13
Sometimes to your own detriment because you're more focused on them, you know, and
59:18
doing, doing the right thing than you are necessarily, like you say, on the business
59:22
or on making it financially viable.
59:25
So my advice would be, you know, don't lose sight of that.
59:29
But at the same time, you know, pay yourself first.
59:33
Make sure that you can afford to keep things running.
59:36
Make sure that if families are not behaving in a way that
59:40
you find acceptable, don't be afraid to say, "Look, I'm sorry.
59:44
This isn't okay."
59:45
You know?
59:46
Because it causes a lot of damage to the whole team and the whole environment
59:53
if you've got families or young people who are behaving in a way which is,
59:58
you know, against your policies.
1:00:00
So I'd say have a very clear behavior policy in place, have very clear
1:00:03
policies in place from the outset.
1:00:06
Theâ¦
1:00:06
And so that people understand that the expectations, they understand.
1:00:11
You know, have, have agreements in place that people sign before they come
1:00:14
that say, "These are our expectations.
1:00:16
These are our behavior policies.
1:00:18
This is what we offer.
1:00:18
This is what we don't offer," so that when people come you have a
1:00:21
document you can refer them to.
1:00:23
You know, I'd say that's been very important for us, and having behavior
1:00:27
policies and terms and conditions that we can be very clear about and participant
1:00:32
agreements signed before people come so they understand all these things has been,
1:00:36
has really helped, helped me with that.
1:00:38
Because I think there's been times when I've been over generous or I've been you
1:00:43
know, where a family may not have treated us very well and I've tried to continue
1:00:46
helping them because I think it's the right thing to do to our own detriment.
1:00:50
You know?
1:00:51
So I think have those policies in place and really stick to them
1:00:55
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, which can be difficult, as you say,
1:00:57
'cause emotions get involved.
1:00:59
Mm-hmm.
1:00:59
One of the things I found with that too, is sometimes people will leave but
1:01:04
then they might come back later, oddly enough when they've had a bit of a think.
1:01:10
One of, one of my current things is that, as you know, we have Horse
1:01:14
Boy Method and Movement Method, and Movement Method is without horses,
1:01:17
so it's what you can do at home.
1:01:19
So what I now do is I ask parents to do a Movement Method course,
1:01:26
at least online 'cause that costs the princely sum of about Â£30.
1:01:30
And it'll be a certain number of hours of their time, or we have
1:01:35
a shortened one that they can do live, which is, like, Â£75.
1:01:39
So we make it as cheap as we can.
1:01:41
But I say, "Look, if after six weeks you haven't done that, then we can't guarantee
1:01:50
that what we do here will continue at home, and if it doesn't, then f- honestly,
1:01:58
you know, no matter what good effects you get here, they won't stick in the same
1:02:04
way that they will if you have a 24/7 culture of this type of neurologically
1:02:10
based movement going on at home.
1:02:13
Now, I understand that you're busy, and so six weeks may very well
1:02:16
go by and you haven't done it.
1:02:18
So tell you what, why don't we extend that another six weeks, 12 weeks, and
1:02:23
I'll extend it even another 12 weeks.
1:02:26
But if at the end of that there's no buy-in, then generally what I'll say is,
1:02:32
"Well, I, I'm sorry, but I need to now make this space available to a family
1:02:38
that will do that, because we really need to see lasting difference here
1:02:43
because we're putting in a lot of effort.
1:02:45
However, the door is open.
1:02:47
You can always come back.
1:02:48
But perhaps this isn't for you right now."
1:02:51
And that I found â¦ You know, I wish I'd been saying that 10 years ago.
1:02:56
Yeah.
1:03:00
When now I think we're dealing with a very different landscape socially to what we
1:03:08
were dealing, particularly post-COVID.
1:03:09
And it can be a bit of a minefield for practitioners and providers as well.
1:03:18
You might u- use the wrong pronoun for somebody now, you know, stuff we
1:03:21
wouldn't have thought about 20 years ago.
1:03:23
You might be perceived as
1:03:29
Unsympathetic to a particular gender orientation or something.
1:03:33
Even if you actually are, things can be, y- y- you are very supportive you
1:03:38
can end up being thrown into these roles by effectively stroppy teenagers, you
1:03:44
know, who now have a sort of ammunition of things which can be used in that
1:03:49
way which were not really there before.
1:03:51
And it's made, I think, the provision of services actually quite a lot more
1:03:56
stressful for because, you know, you're also trying to keep people alive.
1:04:00
You're also trying to educate, you're also trying to provide what's needed.
1:04:06
And now there's this feeling of, gosh, if I put a foot wrong, you know, or
1:04:10
say the wrong thing even inadvertently I could be punished for this.
1:04:18
What, what has been your experience with this?
1:04:22
And again, your advice for people who are entering the business
1:04:28
because it's, it, it's changed for the better- Yeah â¦ because there's
1:04:31
funding, but it's become trickier.
1:04:33
How would you, what would you say to people about how to
1:04:35
navigate this sort of thing?
1:04:37
Nicola Hepburn: I think, you know, keeping yourself informed is really
1:04:40
important because obviously things are very different now than they were 20
1:04:43
years ago, and there's, and there's certain times when I feel, you know,
1:04:47
I don't have all the information, you know, about, about new things that are
1:04:49
you know, new best practice, I guess.
1:04:49
Mm-hmm.
1:04:55
So I'd say that's about, that's about being part of a community as well.
1:04:59
That's about being part of you know, communities with other providers
1:05:03
locally, communities with other people, keeping in touch with other people so
1:05:06
you can all have these discussions and almo- it's almost like a supervision,
1:05:09
I guess, isn't it, where you're working with people and you're able to discuss
1:05:13
what's happening with other people.
1:05:14
I think that's really, really important.
1:05:16
And I think, you know, like with with Horseboy as well, you know, there's
1:05:20
like the online chat groups and things which are i- resources where you've
1:05:24
got practitioners from everywhere where you can all discuss these things, and
1:05:27
I think that's really important is having that community of practitioners.
1:05:30
Mm-hmm.
1:05:31
And trying to keep yourself informed, you know, through trainings.
1:05:34
I think with the local authority obviously, when you work with the local
1:05:38
authority you get the opportunity to learn a lot more about safeguarding and
1:05:41
being involved in safeguarding courses and especially with education they, you
1:05:45
know, they're very good at keeping you up to date with what you need to know
1:05:48
in, in, in terms of legislation like keeping children safe in education.
1:05:52
You know, so you have to be really knowledgeable about these things and
1:05:56
have a really good understanding of them and make sure your team are trained
1:05:59
so that, you know, when you, when you hit a hurdle like a young person
1:06:03
complains about something, again, you've got all the training in place,
1:06:06
you've got the procedures in place, you've got everything in place so that
1:06:09
you're, you're protecting yourselves and you're protecting your team.
1:06:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:06:13
Nicola Hepburn: Through best practice really.
1:06:16
I think, you know, that's a really important thing is to make sure that
1:06:19
you've got those protections in place so that if ever there is an allegation
1:06:23
or there's any questioning about, you know, anything that you've, you've got
1:06:28
all the processes in place to protect not just safeguard the young people
1:06:33
you're working with, but also safeguard your own team and your own business.
1:06:37
Rupert Isaacson: The other safeguarding has to go two ways.
1:06:38
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah It does, absolutely.
1:06:39
And, and we keep a daily log and we ke- keep a daily feedback sheet.
1:06:43
So for our education program, the young people will fill in a
1:06:45
daily feedback sheet so we can discuss what's happened that day.
1:06:49
We give them feedback as part of our, you know, way of
1:06:52
working, our reflection process.
1:06:54
And then we also keep, like, a, a log of the students on a daily basis
1:06:57
so that if somebody says, "Oh, this happened on that day," we've got student
1:07:00
feedback, we've got a log, we can go back, we can see what's happened.
1:07:04
You know, and I find those tools really useful as well.
1:07:07
Mm â¦ so that we're, you know, we're keeping track of everything.
1:07:08
And then we've also got feedback from the students, which is
1:07:11
really, really important to help shape the provision as well.
1:07:14
Because if you have something that keeps coming up on the feedback, you
1:07:18
know, you can look at that and go, "Hang on, you know, these students
1:07:21
are all saying this is an issue.
1:07:22
We need to do something about this, and we need to shape the provision around them."
1:07:26
So I think to provide a really person-centered provision, you
1:07:30
have to have feedback from the pe- the people you're working with in
1:07:33
order to shape it appropriately.
1:07:36
Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more.
1:07:36
The, as you know, Horse Boys entirely really the product of an
1:07:41
interview that I had with Temp- Dr.
1:07:43
Temple Grandin, who is autistic, saying, "How does my son become you?"
1:07:46
Her telling me some things to do.
1:07:48
I di- I did 'em.
1:07:49
They worked.
1:07:50
Then we, we needed to find out why they worked, so we went to neuroscientists,
1:07:53
they explained, and then we realized, oh, we can replicate this.
1:07:57
And then Rowan himself, my son, ended up on a panel for our mutual friend and
1:08:02
colleague, Alex Northover, up in, who runs Making Momentum up in Cheshire, in the
1:08:07
northwest of the UK, who was at that time doing her PhD at Manchester Metropolitan
1:08:13
University and has just become Dr.
1:08:15
Northover now, so all hail Dr.
1:08:17
Alex.
1:08:18
I- she got Rowan to be part of a panel of autistic people talking about how
1:08:23
equine therapies could be better from an au- autism perspective, which is
1:08:28
what everyone should have been doing from the get-go, but, you know, okay,
1:08:32
bre- best practice is catching up now.
1:08:35
W- were there s- what have you seen, things that you had your attention brought
1:08:39
to that, where you made changes or where you said, "Okay, let's adapt our program,"
1:08:44
because people are asking for this, or people are saying this, or people are,
1:08:49
you know, expressing a desire for this.
1:08:51
W- ca- can you talk, give us a few examples of, of how you
1:08:53
shaped your practice this way?
1:08:55
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I guess my biggest example would be, you know, when I did
1:08:59
my, my master's research, my dissertation for my master's degree was where I, I took
1:09:05
three, two or three years of our feedback from the students and analyzed it, and
1:09:10
went through it all and worked out what it was that was working for the students.
1:09:13
And then we also interviewed students as part of that as well.
1:09:16
So that was my biggest piece of research around- The voice of the
1:09:23
people we're working with, and really trying to understand what it was
1:09:26
that they really needed and what they benefited from, what worked for them.
1:09:31
And we found, you know, very much that it's about being able to trust
1:09:35
the right people, being able to make sure that their individual needs are
1:09:39
met and that they feel listened to.
1:09:41
And I think that was a really big thing.
1:09:43
It's like, you know, they, they want to feel that they're, they're listened
1:09:47
to and that their voices are heard.
1:09:49
And I think a lot of provision can be shaped by people.
1:09:52
This is what people need, so we're gonna shape this provision around that.
1:09:55
But are we really listening to, to what the young people are saying,
1:09:59
to what the participants are saying?
1:10:01
So I think that feedback process for me, putting those sheets in place
1:10:04
and then really sitting down and analyzing it, and then interviewing
1:10:07
students, especially when it comes to why they disengage from education.
1:10:11
And I think a lot of the feedback we got was because they actually
1:10:15
found education traumatic.
1:10:17
So, and we know that young teenage brains, when they're in the state of trauma,
1:10:21
that can have a, a, a lifelong impact.
1:10:24
You know, from a neuroscience perspective, you know, when you're still developing,
1:10:28
your brain is still developing and you're experiencing trauma at that time, that
1:10:32
is gonna have a long-lasting impact.
1:10:34
So often when students are getting to alternative provisions,
1:10:38
they're already, they've already experienced educational trauma.
1:10:42
So how do we, how do we change that?
1:10:45
How do we make just being in education, how do we take the trauma away?
1:10:49
You know, that's, that's a huge thing.
1:10:51
And, you know, I think that was a really big learning for me, is like, you know,
1:10:56
how, how do we make our environment so that it doesn't cause any trauma,
1:11:01
so that it addresses the trauma that's already been caused and enables young
1:11:04
people to trust people enough to allow them to help them learn again?
1:11:10
You know, it's such a huge part of reengaging young people into
1:11:14
learning, is building that trust.
1:11:16
And I think sometimes people are very focused on the academic.
1:11:19
What can we get these young people to achieve?
1:11:21
Well, if they don't trust the people they're working with or
1:11:23
they don't trust the environment, they're not gonna achieve anything.
1:11:26
So it's building that trust initially, I think, isâ¦
1:11:28
You know, that's been our biggest learning really.
1:11:32
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:11:33
Let's have some examples.
1:11:34
Let's say you're talking to someone who's 22 years old.
1:11:37
They're about toâ¦
1:11:38
They've just gotten their BHS grade three, level three, whatever.
1:11:42
They're about to go into equine-assisted stuff What's
1:11:48
your advice for how to build this relationship, this type of environment?
1:11:55
H- what's your advice for how to create non-traumatic education?
1:12:00
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I'd say first of all is, you know, for us
1:12:03
it's about being person-centered.
1:12:04
So it's about making sure that you're really listening to the needs of each
1:12:06
individual and, and meeting it, and not having your own expectations of what you
1:12:11
want them to achieve drive the process.
1:12:15
It needsâ¦
1:12:15
You need to set them up for a success in a way that's gonna work for
1:12:18
them, not have your own ego and ex-
1:12:21
Rupert Isaacson: Right, but how?
1:12:23
Nicola Hepburn: Specific.
1:12:23
Well, okay.
1:12:24
Well, y- just, you know, really listen to them and what hasn't
1:12:28
worked for them in the past.
1:12:29
Because, I mean, a- it's very hard to give a, You know, because
1:12:32
every individual is different.
1:12:33
So- Right.
1:12:34
Rupert Isaacson: But would you, would you have a specific set of
1:12:35
conversations, for example- Yeah â¦ with a new intake around this subject?
1:12:39
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, absolutely.
1:12:40
You know, you know, just speaking to them about what hasn't worked and
1:12:44
what they, what they found difficult in, in other provisions, and what
1:12:49
they find does work for them.
1:12:52
And often speaking to parents as well, you know.
1:12:53
And I think this is something that, that you really talked about a lot
1:12:56
when I first started doing Horse Boy, was that the parents are the experts.
1:12:59
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:13:00
Nicola Hepburn: And so speaking to them about, you knowâ¦
1:13:03
'Cause it may be that some of the young people find they
1:13:06
don't want to talk about it.
1:13:07
They can even find talking about it really distressing.
1:13:10
So speak-
1:13:10
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:13:11
â¦ Nicola Hepburn: you know, take a wider environmental look at the whole situation.
1:13:14
You know, what's g- happening at home?
1:13:16
You know, have they gotâ¦
1:13:18
I- is, is there a secure home life?
1:13:20
Is there other people to support them?
1:13:23
Do they have issues with siblings?
1:13:24
You know, there can be a whole big environmental impact from their lives
1:13:30
that isn't just about education.
1:13:33
You know, it's about looking at the individual, looking at the bigger
1:13:35
picture, and really understanding that person and, and their needs.
1:13:39
And they might not know what will work for them as well.
1:13:42
So it can be a case of sometimes trying something, and if that doesn't
1:13:45
work, then try something else.
1:13:47
But you have to listen to them.
1:13:49
Because if, if you feel, if they feel that you're forcing them into
1:13:52
something that they don't want to do, and when they come to youâ¦
1:13:56
You know, for example, a good example that we have is if somebody's really adamant
1:13:59
they want to go home, we will say, "Okay.
1:14:02
That's fine.
1:14:03
If you really don't wanna be here today and you really
1:14:04
wanna go home, that's fine."
1:14:07
And we'll let them go home.
1:14:08
And then they might be like, "Oh, well, I was expecting a battle.
1:14:10
I was expecting you to say that I have to stay."
1:14:13
And then the next time- You know, they say, "Oh, I really wanna go home."
1:14:17
You say, "Well, do you, you know, do you really wanna go home or
1:14:19
could you maybe stay for another hour, and then we have a think about
1:14:22
how you're feeling after that?"
1:14:23
But if they don't trust you that if they really wanna go,
1:14:26
you're not gonna let them go-
1:14:28
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:14:28
â¦ Nicola Hepburn: you know, they can disengage really easily, and then
1:14:30
they won't come back 'cause they feel, "Oh, well if I really, really need
1:14:33
to leave, they're not gonna let me."
1:14:35
So it's about building that trust where the young person feels that if
1:14:39
you say, "Yeah, okay, we'll do another hour, but then if that, if you really
1:14:42
wanna go home after an hour, you can," that you're gonna keep your word, and
1:14:45
that you're not gonna force them to stay when, when they don't want to.
1:14:48
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:14:48
This is, this is an interesting one, because I think we're all told when we
1:14:54
are supposed to be the practitioner, we're all told that we must, we're
1:14:58
supposed to keep some sort of level of control, and of course, that's impossible.
1:15:04
And of course, with non-verbal autism, it's relatively s-
1:15:08
straightforward because the feedback is so uncompromisingly direct.
1:15:15
It's like, you know, someone throws a tantrum, takes off all their clothes, has
1:15:18
a shit, you know, runs to the car, tries to dive off the horse, whatever it is.
1:15:23
It's like, noted loud and clear we'll follow that, and then as you
1:15:28
say, as one follows it, a trust is built where you look up three months
1:15:34
later and you're spending, you know, three hours together doing things.
1:15:39
But if they don't feel that you won't listen in those early stages, even when
1:15:44
what they're doing se- you know, might seem completely bonkers and unreasonable
1:15:48
you never get to that point where things do become really reasonable and so.
1:15:52
But this is much, much harder when one's dealing with the verbal
1:15:58
neurodiverse, because, you know, then there's a higher degree of cognition.
1:16:04
People know how to manipulate.
1:16:05
People know how to push your buttons.
1:16:07
People know how to fight the old battles with the person that they
1:16:12
don't like from their school, and then project that onto you.
1:16:16
And that's a tough position to find yourself in because you're not as-
1:16:23
Well, you know, with, say, a non-verbal person, it'sâ¦
1:16:27
I, I think, I wouldn't say easier, but it's more straightforward that if we push
1:16:35
in this direction, it will just backfire.
1:16:37
And that there's a certain kind of, hopefully, latitude in saying,
1:16:42
"Well, okay, you know, let's take a risk to try to follow.
1:16:46
And in our experience it seems to have worked, so let's do it."
1:16:49
Much, much harder when one's dealing with people who appear to be coming
1:16:53
from a maybe neurodiverse, but at the same time more neurotypical than, say,
1:16:57
where my son was when he was four.
1:17:00
But it's really the same process, isn't it, that you've just described,
1:17:03
of saying, "Okay, if you wanna leave the premises, it's okay.
1:17:07
If you wanna disengage, that's all right."
1:17:11
And then at the same time, as you also said, following their interests
1:17:15
so that the place actually becomes so interesting that they kinda wanna stay.
1:17:19
But it's their choice, not there.
1:17:22
Not a directive.
1:17:24
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
1:17:25
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
1:17:28
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
1:17:33
bit about the old master system.
1:17:36
of dressage training.
1:17:37
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:17:46
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:17:52
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:17:58
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:18:01
Intrigued?
1:18:02
Like to know more?
1:18:04
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:18:08
Check out the free introduction course.
1:18:11
Take it from there.
1:18:12
You did say earlier that you maybe in the early days, perhaps even now to
1:18:18
some degree, were trying to create the provision that you would have needed
1:18:23
when you were a teenage homeless person.
1:18:26
Talk to us about that.
1:18:27
How did you become a teenage homeless person?
1:18:30
This is really useful, I think, for people to know.
1:18:33
And how did you get out of it, and how does it affect your practice,
1:18:39
not just in obviously wanting to create safe spaces, but how does it,
1:18:42
how does it affect your practice?
1:18:44
Has it creatively affect your practice in terms of actually,
1:18:48
yes, being that provision?
1:18:50
'Cause I, I know in many ways you are actually that provision,
1:18:53
which you would have needed.
1:18:54
H- how did it happen?
1:18:55
How did you survive it?
1:18:57
And yeah, h- how has it informed what you do?
1:19:02
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
1:19:02
Well, I mean, I, I was homeless when I was 17.
1:19:06
It wasn't, you know, a massively dramatic story.
1:19:08
I, you know, I kind of fell out with my mom and got kicked out
1:19:10
the house and, you know, my mom and I had a difficult relationship
1:19:13
following my parents' divorce.
1:19:15
And my sister had gone off to, to university, and it was just
1:19:19
me and my mom, and she was going through some difficult things.
1:19:22
And as, as an adult, you can look back now and, you know, I can
1:19:25
understand more that she was going through some difficult times, and
1:19:28
her and I just didn't see eye to eye.
1:19:29
We really didn't get on.
1:19:31
And it resulted in me you know, being asked to leave the house when I was 17.
1:19:36
And, you know, I was kind of staying on people's sofas and going from place
1:19:41
to place, and then I found I found a place in a, in a homeless hostel.
1:19:45
But it was quite a culture shock for me, because I'd come from
1:19:49
this kind of Cotswold upbringing, private schools, ponies.
1:19:52
You know, we, we weren't like, you know, we weren't massively wealthy or anything,
1:19:57
but it was a very nice upbringing and it was very sheltered, I guess, from reality.
1:20:02
And then I move into a homeless hostel in a big town, and the first week
1:20:05
I was there, there was a dead body found in the park around the corner.
1:20:08
You know, and it was quite a, it was quite a leap from, from where I'd been.
1:20:12
But one of the things that I found when I moved into the
1:20:14
hostel, there were 20 girls there.
1:20:16
It was run by a kind of Christian housing association at the time,
1:20:20
and a lot of the girls in there had much different stories to mine, much
1:20:26
different upbringings to mine, and it actually made me realize how lucky I
1:20:29
was at that time because there wereâ¦
1:20:31
You know, I heard some very, harrowing stories when I was there from other
1:20:35
young people, you know, people who've been abused by members of
1:20:39
their family or, you know, just come from these horrendous situations.
1:20:43
And I think it really made me take stock and go, "Actually, I've been quite lucky."
1:20:47
You know, I've just fallen out with my mum.
1:20:49
This isn't, you know, these young peop- these other women have been through a lot.
1:20:52
But it was a real kind of sense of everyone supporting each
1:20:56
other within, within the hostels.
1:20:58
None of us had any money and we were all, you know,
1:21:02
we were all in this sort of weird position where we, we were all looking for places
1:21:04
to live and we all helped each other out.
1:21:07
And it was, you know, it was quite a, quite an experience.
1:21:10
And I think when I, when I left there and I, you know, I did eventually leave
1:21:14
there and managed to find a, a flat and I st- I went, put myself back to college.
1:21:17
And I just kind of realized actually, you know, I am really
1:21:23
lucky and I, I, I, I could be in a much worse position than I am.
1:21:26
And it really motivated me to want to do something more with my life.
1:21:31
And it took, you know, it took me a few years really to get back on my feet.
1:21:34
You know, I did various art courses, which never came to anything.
1:21:37
And then I eventually started working for Blockbuster Video,
1:21:43
and I was the store manager for Blockbuster for about six years.
1:21:47
And I started a business degree as well, which I, again, I didn't finish.
1:21:50
I didn't enjoy it.
1:21:51
So I worked for Blockbuster for about six years, and it was that I found a
1:21:54
manager who actually believed in me, and I got my first managerial role there.
1:21:59
So she believed in me enough to give me the store manager job, the area manager.
1:22:04
And I think what really struck me about that was up to that point, when
1:22:07
you're a homeless teenager, nobody really takes any notice of you.
1:22:11
So I'd gone from kind of private school, grammar school, where everyone's
1:22:15
told you that you can be anything you want to be if you work really hard.
1:22:19
Then I found myself in a homeless hostel.
1:22:21
I dropped out my A levels, found myself in a homeless hostel where I was being
1:22:24
told that I needed to go and get a job, and I'd probably never amount to anything,
1:22:26
and that I was a bit of a waste of space.
1:22:28
So, and then-
1:22:29
Rupert Isaacson: Who told you that?
1:22:30
Who, who told you
1:22:32
Nicola Hepburn: that you were a waste of space?
1:22:32
Oh, various people.
1:22:32
I mean, the,
1:22:33
Rupert Isaacson: Not the people c- running the hostel surely, or, or were they?
1:22:36
The people in the
1:22:36
Nicola Hepburn: hostel were very, They were very kind of, I don't
1:22:40
know how to say it politely.
1:22:42
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:22:43
Say it, say it how you wanna say it.
1:22:44
The, the
1:22:45
Nicola Hepburn: people running the hostel were very judgmental and- Okay â¦ kind
1:22:48
of preachy, and they felt that they were helping shape these delinquent
1:22:52
young women into something better.
1:22:54
That's how it kind of felt.
1:22:56
But, you know, this is going back to the '90s, you know?
1:22:58
Yeah.
1:22:58
So very different.
1:22:59
It was a very different time, you know, 'cause I think children
1:23:02
are safeguarded much more now.
1:23:03
When you're 17, you're not really classed as an adult now, whereas I felt like I
1:23:07
was treated very much like an adult then.
1:23:09
And you know, you're kind of told, "Oh, well, you need to buck y- buck yourself
1:23:13
up," and you know, "Improve yourself," and, you know, you, you're kind ofâ¦
1:23:17
You, you have this sense of judgment that you're homeless because of
1:23:20
something that is your fault and you know, that you need to do better.
1:23:24
And I, you know, and at that point I was, I was involved with
1:23:27
a training organization and they were trying to get me to take,
1:23:30
like- Any old job, an admin job.
1:23:32
But I wasn't really interested in admin at all, and it wasn't something
1:23:35
I was very good at, but it was just, "No, this is all you can do.
1:23:37
You need to go and do it."
1:23:38
And there was no, there was no real â¦ I didn't feel they were particularly
1:23:42
interested in me as an individual.
1:23:43
It was just I was a I was a statistic that needed to be moved into the next
1:23:47
level of employment or whatever to
1:23:50
You know, I don't know.
1:23:51
It was very, I didn't feel that anyone was that particularly
1:23:54
interested in me compared to- How long
1:23:55
Rupert Isaacson: were you there for?
1:23:56
â¦ Nicola Hepburn: previously.
1:23:57
I was in the homeless hostel for probably It was under a year.
1:24:02
I wasn't there for, you know, a very long time.
1:24:06
And I did manage to find myself a flat and, and move out of there.
1:24:09
But yeah, I mean, it was a, it was a difficult time obviously.
1:24:12
I spent my 18th birthday there, which wasn't ideal.
1:24:16
You know- How
1:24:16
Rupert Isaacson: did you find a place?
1:24:17
How did you luck into it?
1:24:18
Because you know, as judgemental as it might have been, worse things would
1:24:21
have happened on the street, I'm sure.
1:24:22
Nicola Hepburn: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
1:24:23
Rupert Isaacson: So-
1:24:24
Nicola Hepburn: I was- Yeah â¦ I was grateful, but it, it was
1:24:26
an interesting experience.
1:24:27
Well, initially I'd had a social worker who'd been, who'd been
1:24:31
involved with the situation.
1:24:32
But then that seemed to come to an end, and then there was a, a local
1:24:35
charity called the Young Homeless Project that I got in touch with, and
1:24:39
I went there, and they were the people who put me in touch with the hostel.
1:24:42
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, okay.
1:24:43
So you were also wise enough to know that there was a sort of chain of
1:24:49
contact and that you could attach yourself to, to find solutions.
1:24:54
Nicola Hepburn: Yes.
1:24:54
Rupert Isaacson: C- you know, as you say, you, you know, you, you, you'd
1:24:56
come from a, an educated background.
1:24:58
You were taught to some degree how to problem solve.
1:25:00
Yeah.
1:25:01
Did you end up sleeping rough for any of it?
1:25:03
And if so, how did you survive that?
1:25:06
Because people must have attempted to prey on you when, when that happened.
1:25:10
Nicola Hepburn: It wasn't as much sleeping rough as sofa surfing at friends' houses.
1:25:14
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:25:15
Nicola Hepburn: That was kind of difficult because I was, obviously, I
1:25:18
was very vulnerable at that point- Mm-hmm
1:25:19
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and
1:25:20
Nicola Hepburn: very reliant on the kindness of others, and that
1:25:23
kindness only goes so far, I think.
1:25:25
You know, once you're friends with somebody and you've been sleeping at their
1:25:28
house for two weeks, their parents are a bit like, "Well-" Sure â¦ you know.
1:25:31
And I, I remember one social services ask, actually asking one of my
1:25:36
friend's parents if they'd take me in, and they were just like,
1:25:38
"Well, we don't have the room and we can't afford it," you know?
1:25:41
So you know, it's that feeling, I felt like a bit of a burden on everybody
1:25:45
really, and that was why in the end I decided that I had to find somewhere
1:25:48
else to go because it was you know, I was really relying on the kindness of others.
1:25:52
Mm.
1:25:52
And there'd be times when somebody, you know, would say, "Yeah, you
1:25:55
can come and stay at my house."
1:25:56
And then, you know, maybe their parents would be like, "Who's this
1:25:59
strange girl you've brought home?
1:26:00
Where does she live?
1:26:02
Who is she?
1:26:02
No, she can't stay.
1:26:03
She needs to go."
1:26:04
And then I'd have to find somewhere else to stay.
1:26:06
So yeah, it w- it was, it was very much I, you know, I was just trying
1:26:10
to find places that were safe.
1:26:12
Mm-hmm.
1:26:13
Yeah, I did feel very vulnerable at that time.
1:26:15
And I think when I was in the hostel I was very vulnerable because I
1:26:17
think a lot of local people knew that
1:26:20
was a hostel full of homeless girls, you know?
1:26:24
So- You know, without going into too much detail, I think certain, certain people
1:26:29
would be interested in a, a hostel full of young girls who had no support systems.
1:26:36
You know, they were all very vulnerable.
1:26:38
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:26:39
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, you know, and I think, But like I say, I, I definitely
1:26:42
realized when I got into the hostel that I'd been very lucky compared to
1:26:47
some other young people who'd been through some really horrendous things.
1:26:51
Rupert Isaacson: It's encouraging to me to hear that when you went in there
1:26:54
and there were girls from rougher backgrounds that they didn't clique
1:27:00
up against you because you were a nice girl sort of thing from a, a nice home
1:27:04
who'd fallen into, you know, hard times.
1:27:08
'Cause as you know, the class system in English, in England can be unforgiving,
1:27:12
you know, in every direction.
1:27:15
Why do you think that- It turned out so supportive and so sisterly.
1:27:21
Well,
1:27:23
Nicola Hepburn: I think it, it just came down to the fact that we all were
1:27:26
in the same boat, and we all got the each other, you know, we all understood.
1:27:32
None of us wanted to be there.
1:27:34
It wasn't our, you know, none of us were like-
1:27:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but sometimes, sometimes those, those situations
1:27:37
can be quite dog-eat-dog as well.
1:27:39
Yeah.
1:27:39
Not necessarily people having each other's backs.
1:27:41
So what, what do you think was the dynamic there that-
1:27:45
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I just think we all-
1:27:46
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: made it so positive?
1:27:46
Nicola Hepburn: You know, we all wanted each other to be okay.
1:27:49
And I, I just think- Mm â¦ I mean, maybe it would've been different if it had been
1:27:52
a different group of girls, I don't know.
1:27:54
I just think when I was there, they were a group of us, and we all
1:27:57
used to go out together as well.
1:27:58
You know, we'd go out and hang out together, and it was, it was our
1:28:02
social network- Mm â¦ time as well.
1:28:05
And I think we all made sure that we all got home okay, you know,
1:28:09
'cause I think if you, if you're going out as a group of girls in a,
1:28:12
in a town as well, you know, theâ¦
1:28:14
I think there was just this sense of us needing to look after each other.
1:28:17
I don't really know where that came from.
1:28:19
I can't really- Mm.
1:28:20
I can't really answer that.
1:28:21
But yeah, it was I think it was just the sense of we're
1:28:23
all in this together, you know?
1:28:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:28:25
It's encouraging, though, to me, to hear that.
1:28:27
I mean, it, it, it restores one's faith.
1:28:32
Did you maintain touch with any of, any of those girls after you?
1:28:36
Or did you all just disappear, fragment?
1:28:38
Nicola Hepburn: No.
1:28:38
No, we allâ¦
1:28:39
No, I didn't keep in touch with anybody from that.
1:28:41
I still kept in touch with some people who I made friends with later- Mm â¦ after
1:28:44
I moved out, but no, not, not the group of girls that were in there.
1:28:48
No, I think we all just very much went, went our separate ways.
1:28:51
So- Yeah â¦ you know, I've got no idea what any of them are doing now.
1:28:53
That would be quite interesting to know.
1:28:55
But, but yeah, it was, it was, you know, you say even though I was a
1:28:59
homeless teenager, it, and it was a difficult time, it wasn't like
1:29:05
sleeping rough on the streets, you know, it wasn't that kind of thing.
1:29:07
But the hostel was a very, you know, an interesting place.
1:29:10
And then I think when I, when I left there, you know, I, I really did
1:29:14
want to make something of myself.
1:29:15
And like I say, I ended up, you know, working at Blockbusters, and then I had
1:29:18
the opportunity to become a manager.
1:29:20
And it was that one person who really believed in me and saw something in me
1:29:24
and gave me an opportunity, and I'm still very thankful to her because I think she
1:29:28
was somebody who really mentored me and saw something in me and, and enabled me to
1:29:33
have a career where- I wasn't, you know, I wasn't just a shop assistant anymore.
1:29:37
Now I was a manager, and then I was managing multiple stores, and
1:29:40
it gave me confidence, and it gave me back- Mm â¦ my confidence in
1:29:43
myself and my ability to achieve.
1:29:45
And then it was, you know, kind of from that role, you know, that I
1:29:49
went on then to find out about equine facilitated learning, and I was
1:29:52
able to buy my first horse through having a management job, you know?
1:29:55
And if I think about where I was at 17, in a homeless hostel, to then
1:30:00
being in my 20s, having a management job, and being able to buy myself
1:30:03
a horse, you know, that 17-year-old would have dreamed of that, you know?
1:30:06
And itâ¦
1:30:06
That being around horses again because it was such a safe space for me as a child.
1:30:11
So I think that was a real focus for me, was getting a horse, having
1:30:14
that, having that feeling again.
1:30:16
And then that led me back into this, you know?
1:30:19
And so, you know, it was then that I kind of quit my job and went
1:30:22
back to university and did a degree and decided to start the business.
1:30:26
So it was yeah, it was very much a passion of mine to
1:30:29
always aspire to having a horse.
1:30:31
That was always myâ¦
1:30:33
one of my driving things, was if I n- if I can, if I can afford a horse, I know I've,
1:30:37
I've made it kind of thing, you know?
1:30:40
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:30:40
And, and to, to a large degree, I'd say that's true, right?
1:30:42
Because, well, for all the obvious reasons.
1:30:45
It's so interesting to listen to that trajectory.
1:30:49
W- what, what it sounds to me like a little bit, you know, when you listen,
1:30:53
think about in terms of archetypes and hero's journeys, know y- you're
1:30:57
on a very definite hero's journey at that point, and, or heroine's journey.
1:31:01
And w- you know, all of the aspects of the hero's journey are there, like
1:31:06
y- you get drawn into it reluctantly.
1:31:08
You don't, you don't wanna find yourself in the hostel, but there you are.
1:31:14
And then there's a sort of perhaps a slightly despairing time w- where
1:31:19
there's a sort of death of the ego.
1:31:21
You know?
1:31:21
It's like, well, I'm a, I'm a nice girl from an upper middle class background.
1:31:24
I'm in the Cotswolds, and I have horses and I'm g- off to
1:31:27
university and I'm gonna doâ¦
1:31:29
And then, no I've sort of lost my status.
1:31:33
Here are these people treating me as if I'm a, a loser.
1:31:37
And I've just gotta kinda deal with that.
1:31:41
But I've also gotta find the tools.
1:31:43
I've gotta find my Yoda, as Luke Skywalker.
1:31:45
I've gotta find my way out of the White Witch's dungeon.
1:31:52
I've got to acquire some skills here.
1:31:55
And it's interesting that- Listening to the story, one of the skills that you
1:32:02
definitely seem to have acquired is the ability to create community and tribe,
1:32:11
which that's why I was intrigued, I think, by the story of the relationship between
1:32:16
the girls in the hostel, that it wasn't hostile and competitive and coming from
1:32:22
a sort of scarcity, "Well, if, if this girl gets something then I don't getâ¦"
1:32:25
That you actually all kind of had each other's backs.
1:32:28
But that is a skill to learn because it can of course go
1:32:32
differently in people's experiences.
1:32:34
And of course gratitude, learning gratitude.
1:32:36
Well, actually, yeah, I, I am able to solve problems.
1:32:41
I am able to reap from the good things of my background, even if it's ended up here.
1:32:50
You know, I'm, I'm lucky that a certain number of these skills
1:32:53
have been implanted in me.
1:32:55
How can I use them?
1:32:57
And it is, it's an inspiring hero's journey, you know, that, and as you
1:33:00
say, it sort of your, your, your purchase of the horse is the sort of
1:33:04
the horse, you ride the horse, you know, either back into Narnia or out of
1:33:07
Narnia depending on which way you think the, the White Witch is, is heading.
1:33:12
And where Aslan happens to be currently.
1:33:16
And now here you are absolutely giving back on this sort of institutional level.
1:33:21
And for those people who are listening, I was just at Nikki's Place about two
1:33:26
weeks ago and looking around at this incredible facility with these very
1:33:33
dedicated people, and there's the wakeboard lakes over there, and there
1:33:36
are the beautiful trails where you can go and check out deer and hares.
1:33:40
And there are the, you know, there's the arena and there's the
1:33:43
round pen and there's Nikki, you know, Captain Nikki doing her thing
1:33:47
steering the ship and c- commanding the ship and in a very sweet way
1:33:53
So hats off, you know, it, it's, it's really impressive.
1:33:58
A lot of people from horsey backgrounds don't necessarily have a story like that.
1:34:03
And I think it's therefore tricky for them sometimes to empathize with people
1:34:09
who are less fortunate less advantaged because it, you know, it, it can be a bit
1:34:14
of an, as you say, a bit of a sheltering, bit of an insulating thing, as well as
1:34:18
giving great life skills You now sort of create many young women who do get to
1:34:28
learn these problem-solving skills through horses and education, just like you did.
1:34:35
And now you're seeing some of them going off and entering the workforce and
1:34:40
getting off to college and so on, which is, must make your heart feel fulfilled.
1:34:47
What's next for you?
1:34:48
What's, where do you want to take this?
1:34:50
Where do you want to develop it?
1:34:51
You're still young.
1:34:52
You're still, you know, you could argue, at the start of things because
1:34:57
things have reached a certain maturity.
1:35:02
But as we know, that's always just the beginning of the next stage.
1:35:04
W- w- where do you wanna go from here?
1:35:07
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think, you know, kind of extending the education
1:35:10
program and the therapeutic work.
1:35:11
I'm always going to want to do that.
1:35:13
You know, but I've been thinking recently a lot about wellness work
1:35:16
and about working with people.
1:35:18
I think wellness is a really big thing at the moment about creating
1:35:21
wellness opportunities for, you know-
1:35:25
Rupert Isaacson: For yourself 'cause you're so tired.
1:35:27
But
1:35:30
now you can get stressed providing wellness, yeah.
1:35:32
Yeah.
1:35:32
Nicola Hepburn: But I think, you know, just like wellness for, you know,
1:35:33
maybe for women, you know, middle-aged women, I think there's a lot- Mm-hmm
1:35:35
um, you know, there's
1:35:41
a lot of awareness around menopause and around you know, stress and around,
1:35:47
you know, various different things.
1:35:48
Even grief or, you know, I'm, I'm interested in working with people who,
1:35:53
you know, maybe a m- a family member has cancer or they have cancer, you know.
1:35:56
I think there's a lot of other things like that that I haven't explored
1:35:59
with the business that I'd like to look at, you know, from more of a
1:36:01
wellness perspective and how being around the horses can benefit people-
1:36:05
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:36:05
Nicola Hepburn: um, from that perspective.
1:36:07
And I think maybe I'm doing it again, you know, maybe it's creating
1:36:11
the the environment, you know, that, that I'd like to be in.
1:36:15
So I, I think it's, whatever we do in, in this work, there's always an element
1:36:20
of personal influence in it, isn't there?
1:36:22
So I think-
1:36:22
Rupert Isaacson: There has to be, otherwise, w- w- in a funny
1:36:26
way, what else are you, what, what else are you drawing on?
1:36:28
Yeah.
1:36:28
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, yeah.
1:36:29
Exactly.
1:36:30
So I think maybe, I think as, you know, as I've developed and I've, you know, changed
1:36:35
it, you know, my, my kind of things that I'm interested in change as well.
1:36:38
But I think the education part of what we do is something that I want to
1:36:42
continue with, but I'm, you know, I'm really looking at a lot of wellness
1:36:45
stuff at the moment as well and how we can, how we can work in that way.
1:36:49
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting that you bring up menopause because, you
1:36:51
know, in, I think a lot of people who'll be listening to this or watching this
1:36:54
are probably women either approaching menopause or in menopause, or perhaps on
1:36:58
the other side of menopause, and it seems to hit everybody differently But what we
1:37:02
know is it hits ev- 50% of the population.
1:37:05
You could, I think, argue to some degree that it hits 100% of the
1:37:08
population because there is, to some degree, a male menopause as well.
1:37:12
It's not, doesn't manifest in quite the same way.
1:37:15
And men are generally very silent about how they suffer.
1:37:18
But there's a sort of retreat into, can be a retreat into loneliness.
1:37:22
There can be a retreat into ill health.
1:37:24
There can be a retreat into despair, which you see men go into in their
1:37:31
50s sometimes, and early 60s.
1:37:33
And then when they retire and their job is no longer their identity there
1:37:40
can sometimes be a huge collapse.
1:37:42
And then we've got, you know, young men loneliness which is a whole thing.
1:37:45
But a lot of the women I know, your colleagues, my colleagues right when the
1:37:54
Success of the equine-assisted program kicks in and things become even more
1:38:01
demanding because now you have staff to look after you and you have a large
1:38:05
program and a lot more responsibility, and you've got to fundraise, and
1:38:08
you, you know, blah, blah, blah.
1:38:09
That's, of course, when your body goes, "Oh, surprise," you know.
1:38:13
We're gonna make things tricky now.
1:38:15
And you're just gonna have to power through.
1:38:17
Some people seem to go through it with relatively little upset.
1:38:23
Some people, it hits them like a freight train, and all points in between.
1:38:27
W- what do you think is the need?
1:38:29
What do you, you know, I don't know whether you're menopausal,
1:38:32
perimenopausal, or whatever, but y- you're, it- it- it- it's- it's gonna
1:38:37
be part of your reality whichever.
1:38:39
W- what do you feel would be, as a woman, the, the, the sort of, is
1:38:47
there, is there a sort of bottom line need that you think cou- sh-
1:38:51
could and should be addressed there?
1:38:53
Nicola Hepburn: I think, you know, it's f- I think it's very much around
1:38:58
people having, again, it's back to a safe space to go where they can talk
1:39:01
to other women, and it can, people understand, and people can empathize
1:39:05
with each other and share experiences.
1:39:08
You know, I think, I think obviously there's a need for education.
1:39:12
I think there's a lot of stigma around HRT, and there's still stigma around, you
1:39:18
know- Mm-hmm â¦ talking about menopause.
1:39:19
And you know, I think actually you know, Louise Newson in the, in the UK,
1:39:23
she's done a lot of work around making information about menopause much more
1:39:29
accessible, and people being able to, you know, have the right medication.
1:39:34
And so I think it's that kind of need for people to be able to talk about it with
1:39:40
people and be able to get good advice and good information and feel supported.
1:39:45
I think really where the horses come in and the, the wellness work is around
1:39:49
you know, a safe space where people can, can go, and if they're having a shit
1:39:54
day, say, "I'm having a really crap day.
1:39:56
I'm feeling like this," and there's gonna be no judgment.
1:39:58
There's gonna be understanding and support.
1:40:00
And you know, just again, a person-centered provision
1:40:04
where people feel listened to.
1:40:06
And I think it's the same, it's the same kind of approach but just
1:40:09
to a different demographic really.
1:40:11
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:40:12
Mm.
1:40:13
I'm f- gonna be fascinated to see how it manifests.
1:40:17
And, and then one that was, well, lovely thing is you've got a lovely
1:40:19
cold lake there you can all jump into.
1:40:21
Our, our our mutual friend and colleague, Terry Brosnan, you know, who runs
1:40:26
the big Horse Boy center at, at, in, outside Dublin, at Stuart's Care.
1:40:29
She says, "Rupert, thank God for cold water swimming."
1:40:32
You know, but it, often these things actually do come down very
1:40:35
much to the physical too, like one needs- Okay, you're overheating.
1:40:39
What, what are we gonna do about this?
1:40:40
It's, it's, w- as you know, as we're sitting here in summer 2026, and
1:40:45
we're dealing with climate warming temperatures, you know, and you're
1:40:49
out there standing in that arena, and you're suffering hot flashes.
1:40:53
What are you gonna do?
1:40:53
Like, what, what is, what can we actually physically do to cool down?
1:40:57
What can we do to feel more comfortable, feel better?
1:40:59
Well, the first thing we have to be able to do is talk about it, right?
1:41:02
Because if we can't fess up to the fact that this is happening
1:41:05
and we're suffering, then it's a quick road to the grave, really.
1:41:11
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's that level of crisis.
1:41:13
I'm welcoming this conversation because the field that you and I
1:41:22
are in is largely female driven.
1:41:24
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
1:41:25
Rupert Isaacson: Most of those women now are coming of age to this sort
1:41:28
of c- they're sort of, they're coming to their queen time of the life,
1:41:33
which coincides with this massive physical and hormonal challenge.
1:41:38
I, I, I so agree with you that the stigma around HRT I don't
1:41:43
think is to anybody's benefit.
1:41:44
No.
1:41:45
And I, I don't really see what-
1:41:51
benefit there is to allowing 50% of the workforce and the managerial
1:42:00
force and the entrepreneurial force to be sort of slain by a dragon th-
1:42:08
without â¦ No, you give them a sword and a shield, but it's, it's all right
1:42:11
to admit that the dragon is there.
1:42:13
Have you got plans to actually implement this in your, in, in your practice?
1:42:17
And if so, like, what are the little pilot projects?
1:42:20
What are the toes in the water that you might be doing
1:42:22
in the next couple of years?
1:42:24
Nicola Hepburn: I'm looking at initially looking at some retreats.
1:42:26
We've been looking at, you know, running some retreats 'cause we've
1:42:29
got an ideal setting for it with the horses, like you say, with the lakes.
1:42:32
We've got sauna.
1:42:33
We've got the woodland.
1:42:34
We've, you know â¦ So it's just such a, a beautiful site and, you
1:42:38
know, I've got friends who do yoga.
1:42:40
And I, you know, I know that you're running retreats as well, so I'm talking
1:42:44
to people about running retreats.
1:42:45
Mm-hmm.
1:42:46
And we're thinking maybe a little pilot retreat for a few days this summer.
1:42:49
But I'm also interested in running some support groups.
1:42:51
It's all very in its inception at the moment, you know.
1:42:53
Mm-hmm.
1:42:54
You know, haven't really got much further than that at the moment.
1:42:57
That's, you know, where I am, but we are looking at organizing, like, a small
1:43:00
retreat at some point this summer for just a few days as, like, a, a test
1:43:04
run to see what works and what, you know, what people want really, Mm-hmm
1:43:09
comes to this.
1:43:09
But it's a very different approach for me really, a different demographic.
1:43:13
So it's gonna take a bit-
1:43:14
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely
1:43:15
â¦ Nicola Hepburn: work it out.
1:43:16
And you know, again, do the right research so that we're really providing
1:43:21
what people, what's gonna be of use to people and help people, so.
1:43:26
Rupert Isaacson: Well, spoiler alert listeners.
1:43:27
We will, Nikki and I are gonna do something next summer.
1:43:31
And I think what would be really good with that is we, I think we need to reach out
1:43:36
to men as well who are going through that â¦ Do we call it a midlife crisis anymore?
1:43:42
Do we call it a two-thirds of the way th- through life crisis?
1:43:45
Do we call it male menopause?
1:43:45
I don't know what we call it, but we know that there's suffering,
1:43:50
and we know that there's-
1:43:55
D- disassociation from each other that this is where often relationships break
1:44:00
down right when people have built, spent decades building stuff together.
1:44:07
And the sudden breakdowns in communication and understanding, do they need to happen?
1:44:13
I mean, everybody needs to feel seen and heard, right?
1:44:16
You know, men do, women do.
1:44:19
Are there ways that we can draw upon what we've been doing with special
1:44:23
needs and neurodiverse all these years to help ourselves and those like us to
1:44:30
effectively keep putting one foot in front of the other when the rules change?
1:44:35
Because yeah, it's, it's change is distressing.
1:44:42
Nicola Hepburn: And we're- Yeah.
1:44:43
I, I heard something that I thought was really interesting that said
1:44:45
that, you know, the people who stay with you through your life are the
1:44:48
people who can change with you- Mm-hmm
1:44:50
who are going to accept when you change.
1:44:51
And I think the problem- Mm â¦ a lot of the time when people expect other people
1:44:54
to stay the same, so- Mm â¦ you know, maybe it's learning to accept people,
1:45:00
people's changes and grow with them, you know, that's a huge, a huge thing to-
1:45:05
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:45:05
Right â¦ which, I, I think it goes, it goes beyond acceptance, doesn't it?
1:45:08
I think it has to go to like more like to curiosity.
1:45:10
It's like, "Oh, Nikki, you know, I've known you all this time, and
1:45:14
now you're this sort of new Nikki.
1:45:19
Help me to explore and appreciate those com- complexities.
1:45:23
Like, how can youâ¦
1:45:24
Howâ¦
1:45:25
Rather than saying, "Well, no, I want you to be the old Nikki."
1:45:28
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
1:45:28
Rupert Isaacson: You say, "Well, Rupert, you know, sorry, but with
1:45:30
the best will in the world, I'm not.
1:45:32
You know, I'm still here if you wanna come along for the ride,
1:45:37
but I myself don't perhaps know."
1:45:39
You know?
1:45:40
But I do think, yeah, it's, it's w- it's almost like we're, we're not
1:45:43
encouraged to be curious perhaps 'cause we're afraid, perhaps because
1:45:46
we're encouraged to be afraid, perhaps because we're told we'll be punished,
1:45:49
again, if we ask the wrong question or make the wrong assumption orâ¦
1:45:52
But maybe we need to make those wrong assumptions and ask those wrong
1:45:57
questions in order to get on the other side of them to ask the right ones.
1:46:01
But is there a safe space where we can do that without getting vilified?
1:46:05
You know, or if, if we're so afraid of being vilified, will we just
1:46:08
be paralyzed and drift apart?
1:46:12
And I do think that happens to people.
1:46:14
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
1:46:14
Rupert Isaacson: Because, you know, I think this is something
1:46:16
that, that needs to be addressed.
1:46:17
Anger is always a big part of the work we do.
1:46:23
So, you know, when you're dealing with a, a small person who's having
1:46:27
a lot of trouble, neurodiverse, going through transitions, you
1:46:30
deal with distress and anger.
1:46:32
You know, when you're, when you're a young adult and your amygdala is in advance
1:46:38
of your prefrontal cortex at 17, 18, 13, whatever, you deal with a lot of anger.
1:46:45
Menopause, a lot of anger comes through.
1:46:48
Now, is that a creative force?
1:46:52
Can that be explored as a creative force?
1:46:55
But it's also painful to deal with, difficult to deal
1:46:58
with, dangerous to deal with.
1:47:00
The fear is real.
1:47:02
If, if you're a man who says the wrong thing, the fear is real.
1:47:07
The lashing out is very real.
1:47:10
Similarly, if you're a woman and you say the wrong thing to a man,
1:47:13
the, the lashing out is very real.
1:47:17
This human anger thing, male or female, how do weâ¦
1:47:23
I, I think that that is what keep, keeps people
1:47:28
too afraid to engage.
1:47:29
Do you know what I mean?
1:47:30
Like h- what, what, what do we deal, how, h- how do, how do we bridge that?
1:47:34
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, I think, I think people need, you know, it's hard sometimes
1:47:36
to recognize a feeling or recognize why you're feeling a feeling, you know?
1:47:41
And I think i- or understanding why you feel angry, you know?
1:47:44
And I think, I think this, this time of life is, there's lots of
1:47:47
other things going on, you know, as well with people's parents getting
1:47:50
sick or children leaving home or-
1:47:52
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:47:54
Nicola Hepburn: doing exams or going to university.
1:47:54
I think it's, it's a time of a lot of pressures, you know- Mm
1:47:58
and a lot of different things going on.
1:48:00
And so it's, you know, do people always necessarily have the time to
1:48:04
think about themselves and the root of their feelings or the root of their
1:48:07
anger and where it's coming from?
1:48:09
Do they have to- Mm â¦ think about that 'cause they're so absorbed with
1:48:11
everything else that's going on?
1:48:12
It's, I don't know.
1:48:14
I don't have the answers, but- Yeah â¦ I think it's a, it's
1:48:16
a very interesting question.
1:48:19
Rupert Isaacson: I suspect that nature's always gonna be the answer.
1:48:21
I suspect that the return of the nervous system-
1:48:24
Nicola Hepburn: Mm-hmm
1:48:24
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: to a sort of reset which only nature can provide, right?
1:48:29
But I suspect one probably will need to do that more often than less often,
1:48:34
that we, we put so much attention on to helping of young people because they
1:48:39
got their lives ahead of them, and we want, you know, to s- set them sail on
1:48:43
the ocean in the best ship that we can.
1:48:46
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
1:48:46
Rupert Isaacson: But once they're out there, you know, Mid-Atlantic,
1:48:50
there's, you know, some waves and some storms, and by the time they get
1:48:53
to the Mid-Atlantic, they're older.
1:48:55
By the time they land on the foreign shore, they're older still.
1:48:59
By the time they're setting up camp there, perhaps a, you know,
1:49:02
they're a decade or two in.
1:49:04
And as you say, the pressures get greater.
1:49:07
You happen to have, I think, that place despite it being in a very, you know,
1:49:14
well-populated part of the British Isles.
1:49:17
It's not far from Birmingham, you know, not far from London.
1:49:20
But yeah, it's very rural where you are.
1:49:21
It's deeply rural.
1:49:22
You hear the owls at night, see the stars.
1:49:27
I suspect you'll be able to give people access to what they need, and I, I'm
1:49:32
excited to see how you offer that
1:49:38
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
1:49:38
It's gonna be, it's gonna be an exciting new adventure, I think.
1:49:41
Something yeah, that's â¦ I think it's got a lot of potential.
1:49:45
And I think, you know, like you say, it's the same thing with the children.
1:49:48
The environment just lends itself to the therapeutic.
1:49:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:49:53
'Cause
1:49:54
Nicola Hepburn: it's, it is j- You know, before we do anything, we've got
1:49:56
this beautiful therapeutic environment, so we're very lucky to have that as
1:49:59
a starting, a starting point really.
1:50:03
And you know, the lakes as well, I think, you know, being near water- Mm â¦ the
1:50:07
research, you know, this is very similar to the research around horses, isn't it?
1:50:10
Yeah.
1:50:10
You know?
1:50:11
And it's the same as being in woodland, isn't it?
1:50:13
The research of what it does to you physically-
1:50:16
Rupert Isaacson: Yes
1:50:16
â¦ Nicola Hepburn: being in those environments is, is- Yes â¦ huge impact.
1:50:20
So I think, yeah, I think the ha- having a retreat in that environment where you
1:50:24
understand what's going on, and then you can take away from that and apply it to
1:50:27
your life elsewhere, I think that would be really valuable to a lot of people.
1:50:32
Rupert Isaacson: It will.
1:50:32
Well, I can't wait to do it with you.
1:50:34
And for those, those people who are listening and watching, send us an email.
1:50:38
You know where to reach us, and we'll â¦ If you wanna come on one of these early
1:50:41
retreats then you can also go up to Stratford-on-Avon up the road afterwards
1:50:45
or before and have a little chat with Shakespeare and An- Anne Hathaway.
1:50:50
Okay.
1:50:51
Well, Nikki, it's been fan- fantastic.
1:50:54
How do people contact you?
1:50:56
Give us the plugs, websites, contacts, offerings, what people can contact you
1:51:02
for not just the services, but also, you know- Guidance, tuition, consultation
1:51:10
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
1:51:10
Well, the website is, is the the best place to go, so
1:51:13
it's equinelearning.org.uk.
1:51:16
And there's a contact us page on the website that you can, you can
1:51:20
send a â¦ You know, if you have a query, you can send it to there.
1:51:23
Or there's an email address, which is hello@equinelearning.org.uk.
1:51:28
But all our contact details are, are on the website.
1:51:30
If you Google Equine Learning, it, you know, it should come up.
1:51:34
And yeah, I mean, people can get in touch with me about our therapeutic
1:51:38
services, about our camps, about retreats.
1:51:41
We are looking at running some.
1:51:42
We do private stays for families at the moment, if they want to come and stay and
1:51:46
bring a child and stay on site and do some work with the horses and use the lakes and
1:51:49
the other facilities here, we can do that.
1:51:52
We are looking at running some camps again next summer.
1:51:54
And then obviously for therapeutic work and education we, we can also do
1:51:59
education on a more remote basis for people who may not be in the local
1:52:03
area who might be interested in doing a qualification with our organization.
1:52:07
So, yeah, those are all the things that we can, we can offer.
1:52:10
And,
1:52:11
Rupert Isaacson: And, and once again, the website?
1:52:13
Nicola Hepburn: It's equinelearning.org.uk.
1:52:16
Rupert Isaacson: Equinelearning.org.uk.
1:52:20
And I'm sure that there's a, an email link on there that they can reach you at.
1:52:23
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
1:52:23
There's a contact us page.
1:52:25
It's got all our contact details on there.
1:52:27
Rupert Isaacson: Super.
1:52:28
All right.
1:52:28
Well, I think we should probably come on and have this conversation again
1:52:31
after we've done the first retreat next year, so I guess we say to be continued.
1:52:37
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
1:52:37
Well, thank you very much for, for inviting me along today, Rupert.
1:52:41
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's been my great pleasure
1:52:42
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