Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #230: RFK Jr's Dietary Guideline Identity Crisis - How It Affects You

Transcript

Episode #230: RFK Jr's Dietary Guideline Identity Crisis - How It Affects You · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: The message is simple.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Eat real food.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're still not differentiating between grass-fed milk versus a Keifo holsteam.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: You can have an increased level of saturated fat, and if you're consuming more carbohydrates along with that, you can actually increase your risk of.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everybody.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to another podcast from Beyond Labels with yours truly, Joel Salatin, the farmer, and our favorite researcher, Dr.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McCullough.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Before we go too far, if you're watching this on video, we've had our our uh our guru of the background, uh Nolan, has fixed me up in my desk spot with some uh pretty sophisticated camera and recording equipment.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: So um if you like the new look, um let us know.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: But today we're going to zero in a little bit on this hot, hot uh current topic, the big the inversion, if you will, the inversion of the dietary guidelines uh that for the first time since they came out uh in 1990 or whenever it was, 80, um the Cheerios and Lucky Charms and Um Captain Crunch cereal have come off the foundational element and uh and been replaced by uh meat and eggs and dairy.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty cool.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so there there are some big changes, and Cena's been sleuthing on this, and so I'm gonna turn it over to her to let her give some uh some thoughts about these new changes in the dietary guidelines, which by the way, uh I mean for for those of us that are completely outside the food system and beyond labels, we really don't think much about the dietary guidelines because we don't look at them, we don't care about them, we you know, we eat we eat what we what we think we should eat.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um but they actually have huge steering you know rudder capacity in our culture because they determine what's in the school lunch program, what uh the military serves, what institutions serve.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody that's in a dietary position uh at nursing homes, schools, hospitals, uh, military commissaries, all these places, much of their um product liability insurance, their purchases, their menu options, they they uh hue, they hew to the dietary guidelines in their uh in their decision making.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when you change that up as much as this has, uh it it really does have some some ramifications.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I for one am giving credit where credit is due, that this is a an interesting an interesting change, and Cena's gonna bring us up to date on it.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So Cena?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to add too that it also these guidelines also affect processed foods, right?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Which ingredients are added to processed food, the macronutrient ratios, because these dietary guidelines affect that nutrient, the facts panel, the nutrition facts panel.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so people who companies who formulate processed food and other products will actually back calculate the formulation based on that nutrition facts panel.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: So if you eat any kind of processed food, even like ketchup, right?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's it does affect all these foods.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: It also affects what research is funded, what kind of studies are funded, um, which affects things like um medical interventions if you get sick.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it also affects what drugs we're chasing.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we can we can talk about all of that today.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So this is a big, big deal.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: It affects all of us, even if we don't consciously look at these guidelines for guidance.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: So what we're gonna do then is go through these guidelines.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: I want to spend a lot of time on the area where I think they missed, which is the saturated fat component, and I'll walk you through that.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: But let's also talk about some of the areas where I think they hit a home run.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: So the biggest announcement is that, as Joel, as you said, they've officially replaced the my plate in and now it's replaced by an inverted pyramid.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: The animal proteins, eggs, and full-fat dairy are now out of jail.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: And not only are they free, but they're on top of uh this inverted pyramid.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, majority of the calories coming from these whole foods.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: As the secretaries, the HHS um and USDA secretaries jointly stated the message is simple eat real food.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: I love that message.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is the one of the fastest ways that we help people reverse chronic and autoimmune diseases, is we tell them to eat real food.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: So home run for that.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Part of this switching to eating real food was they switched from the low-fat and non-fat dairy to full fat dairy with no added sugar.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a great swap.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the new dietary guidelines lists three servings per day of this full fat dairy with no sugar added.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: So this is kind of um a nitpicky thing for me.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: So this is for all of the dietary guidelines since their inception.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm not a huge fan of band-aiding dairy.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know that some people have healed themselves with, for example, raw milk, particularly raw A2A2 milk.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it can be um a therapy, a therapeutic food.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: But um dairy is the number two top trigger for autoimmune and chronic illnesses.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And these guidelines themselves talk about how they are trying to um help people become healthier, to become more resilient, to be healthier, to basically turn the tide and stop this epidemic of chronic illness.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: So this is again a more nitpicking thing for me against all the dietary guidelines.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think this should be mandated.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: You leave out people who have like lactose intolerance, for example.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you you leave out people who can't consume the dairy or who are allergic or sensitive to it.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what that means is when they're formulating menus, if you can't have it, they're formulating these.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's say for like kids in schools or people in nursing homes or the vets.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: When they formulate their food they're gonna put in front of them, the dairy is considered to be part of the total nutrients that they need for their daily intake.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: If they can't consume it, they're gonna be deficient in those nutrients.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I don't believe in these dietary guidelines and, you know, parsing out the individual nutrients.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: But what I'm saying is if you put on their cap and how they think about the dietary guidelines, they are trying to give people 100% of the nutrients that they need.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: That was the basis of the dietary guidelines.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you can't have these three servings of whole milk um in a day, and they're feeding you and you're not eating that part, you are gonna be deficient according to them.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so the other thing, my other little caveat with the milk is that most people are gonna be consuming pasteurized milk, right?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: They're gonna be getting the pasteurized milk in the schools, uh in the hospitals and whatnot.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we know that one is not as nutrient dense as raw milk.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can Joel, you can look at lots of people.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the the big one is this is keyfo milk.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these are Holsteins.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: These are Holsteins, you know, uh 3,000 cows in a confinement situation, uh eating a very simple ration of corn and wheat, soybeans, a little bit of hay, and um, and that milk is so just just like one of the big fallacies of the previous one, it didn't make any difference between, for example, um the grain of of quinoa or amaranth and sourdough versus what was in Lucky Charms.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and we uh you know, we gritted our teeth for you know for a long time over that lack of differentiation.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Today, the next the next refinement is not and and and this is what I've said about the whole thing, they're still not differentiating between grass-fed milk, uh Guernseys and Jerseys that make you know really rich cream whole milk from that, versus you know, uh a KFO Holstein, you know, producing 12 gallons a day.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it changes the macro and micronutrient profile of the milk.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: It substantially changes it.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: So you are gonna have, for example, if a cow is eating grain versus its natural diet of these grasses, um, studies are showing that's gonna have more saturated fat.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying saturated fat is bad, I'm saying that there's a food matrix that needs to be considered.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you take the animal off its natural diet, you change its natural food matrix.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, well, God gave the cow that natural matrix to be in the ideal ratio, and now we change it by taking him off his natural diet and feeding him something unnatural.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it changes the amount of saturated fat they're consuming it and it puts it in a ratio that may not be ideal.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, you can have if you if you increase the sat, you can have an increased level of saturated fat.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're in consuming more carbohydrates along with that, you can actually increase your risk of a cardiovascular disease.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and and we'll we're gonna dive more into that in just a moment.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: So just put a pin on that real fast.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: But there is a difference between these milks, and there's a difference once you pasteurize it.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just right before our podcast, I pulled up this meta-analysis that in in the published scientific literature, it shows that when you pasteurize the milk, you not only break down some enzymes that help the individual digest and assimilate the nutrients in that milk, but you also decrease vitamin B12, vitamin E, vitamin B1, vitamin C, folate, and vitamin B2.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you aren't getting as much nutrition as you think you are when you're consuming these pasteurized milk.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that I just want to call that out.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, this is my nitpicky thing, but this would be the next level to go to.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um pasteurized milk for me is processed food.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And they're saying stop eating processed food, eat the real food.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So eat the drink the real milk.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and if you go to the chemical industrial source, that's that's another kick in the pants.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, if you will.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and this this was the whole thing, just to remind our our listeners, uh, this was one of the things that that we revealed with our interview with Dan Kittridge of the Bionutrient Food Association, where they're studying, they they did carrots and they found out that that the nutrition of the best carrot uh you you you would have to eat 80 of the bad of the of the poor carrots that look the same in the store.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: They look the same.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: You have to eat 80 of those carrots to get the nutrition of one good carrot grown in really, really healthy soil.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is the same thing we see in foods across, but Cena, you know, um, it's gonna be a long time before they act they they they um aggressively right now they're differentiating between uh whole foods and and ultra-processed foods.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's a step in the right direction.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um how long do you think it'll take before they start differentiating between a pastured chicken, GMO-free, vaccine free, and a Tyson chicken?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's gonna be way down the line.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, yeah, we we we recognize what what it is and what it isn't.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I'm like, this is my nitpicky thing.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: If I had my ideal, that's what I would do.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: So the next one is the refined carbohydrates.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: This was a huge win that they've reduced it from six to 11 servings per day to two to four servings per day.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just whole grains.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: So they're discouraging uh the highly processed refined carbohydrates like white bread, ready-to-eat package breakfast options, flour tortillas, crackers, chips, things like that.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: So this was a huge win to decrease the amount of carbs.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also needed.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so this is where we just talked about like a food matrix.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: The overall dietary pattern that somebody consumes matters.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: The old, all the old dietary guidelines, they recommended pretty much a high carb diet, and they ended up having um actually high saturated fat a lot of times, because the foods that Americans were consuming on these high carb diets, they're often high in saturated fat.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: So the so I got this study that says the top sources of the average intakes of saturated fat amongst the US population are from sandwiches, desserts, and sweet snacks, rice, pasta, and other grain-based mixed dishes, um, and chips, crackers, and savory snacks.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: So this is where most of the most of American saturated fat consumption comes from.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, why do you think that is?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, one reason is because of what the dietary guidelines that we've had so far and how the processed foods are made.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you're eating lots of saturated fats, but you're also eating lots of carbs.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, what happens is that increases your risk of cardiovascular um disease.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you can decrease your risk of cardiovascular disease it by if you increase your saturated fat and you decrease your carbohydrate intake.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: That stimulates less insulin, which means that now the saturated fat can go through um oxidative phosphorylation.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, it can be aerobically metabolized into energy, right?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of floating around in the body.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can use it.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, you can utilize it.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it was critical that if they're gonna, if we're now gonna be consuming like full fat dairy, and as we'll get into in a minute, we're gonna be consuming the beef, you know, red meat and eggs, these things that have saturated fat.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: It is critical that the carbohydrate level was lowered.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that was also that was also a big win and an indicator to me that perhaps they they are aware of the how the overall dietary pattern matters and they've shifted that.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I praise them for that.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: What what's this gonna what's this gonna do to the breakfast food aisle and the potato chip aisle?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm though those two aisles, if if people really bought into this, those two aisles would suddenly almost be non-existent.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'm excited to see what happens.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I mean, obviously shifts I don't think are gonna happen right away, right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Things take time, but and there's lots of pushback, which we'll get into.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: But this this really is a big shakeup.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like this is huge.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's huge what they just did.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and if they can get it implemented, then it's a real win.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's gonna be the big issue, which we'll get into is how are they gonna implement this?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: But to your point, they have said no processed foods.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, not even like let's limit it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's like avoid, avoid highly processed, packaged, prepared, ready to eat, and other foods that are salty or sweet, such as chips, cookies, candies, instead, prioritize nutrient-dense foods.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought of you when I read this, Joel.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Prioritize home prepared meals.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Home prepared meals.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, okay, first you're gonna have to teach them how to cook, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: They are planning to have cooking videos on their website coming soon.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be good.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Baked back to basics.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they also say to limit foods and beverages that include artificial flavors, petroleum-based dyes, artificial preservatives, low calorie and non-nutritive sweeteners.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: So these are your xylitol, saccharin, aspartame, all those.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: It says, okay, so because these things are not real food, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you're supposed to eliminate them.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Avoid sugar-sweetened beverages.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: This includes sodas, also fruit drinks, um, and energy drinks.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: They said choose water, right?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: And they make a point of, you know, if you need electrolytes.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: So here's a little contentious part part of this.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, wait, before before, wait, before you do that, Sina, uh, just to point out that that I know you're going to get to implementation, but but think about it, it wasn't that long ago that they that they realized hydrogenated vegetable oil was not good.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And now that that landscape has, think of how drastic that landscape has changed.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh margarine and Crisco.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you almost can't find them.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So those those the the culture did change on that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: It really did.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it did.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Although, you know, you could they used there was a loophole where there's some foods that still do have trans fats in them.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: But yes, but it did largely change.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: But just like you and I say, there's always the loopholes, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good example.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: But yes, the culture changes.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I just I just don't think, I mean, I mean, I I don't get into everybody's homes for sure, but I just don't think if you track the sales of Crisco and um and margarine, that they have to be way down.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: They just have to be.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I haven't tracked it, but we can do that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's check that out.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be interesting to look.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I hadn't thought about it until just now, but yes, but um my sense is that those have gone they've gone out of vogue in the culture, um, you know, uh substantially, you know, compared to compared to 40 years ago.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, I would for for I would say for sure, yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the next thing they said is don't eat or drink added sugar, which is great.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: They actually gave uh examples of what to look for on the label to identify sugar.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, of course, things like high fructose, corn sugar, agave syrup, cane sugar, beet sugar, fruit juice concentrate, and then they also list honey.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that one, uh yeah, honey and molasses.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: So this, I was surprised to see that one.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know, I mean, they're saying don't eat or drink added sugar.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, of course, you would probably put that in the list.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: But to me, I'm thinking, okay, so you left the cap for saturated fat, which again we'll get to in a minute, but you took out honey, which is something that even hunter and gatherers ate, right?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: And honey is very different than all of these other sugars that are listed.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Honey is very different, it's naturally made.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: It actually can feed your good bacteria, right?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like we know it can boost.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: I got studies right in front of me, that it can boost um lactobacillus, which we've talked about that a lot on this program, all the different um health benefits that it has.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's it can be anti-inflammatory, it has antioxidants, trace minerals, it has microRNAs in it.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: So if you get local honey, it can help you adapt to your local environment, potentially stave off allergies.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's less processed than all these other sugars.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, I'm like, hmm, I'm not sure that I'm not sure that I would still be demonizing saturated fat, but but you know, and still demonize honey.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like it just seems odd to clump honey in that same category.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: It also has a lower glycemic index than others.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what it is, Zina?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's politics.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's politics.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: These people got in a room, and you know how many high fructose corn syrup the corn lobby was there, the the sugar beet lobby was there, the goodness.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, corn and sugar beet and corn and um and sugarcane are two of the six commodities the USDA subsidizes.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So of the six.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Commodities that the USDA has picked to subsidize, two of them are corn, which makes high fructose corn syrup, and sugarcane.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you know those people were in that room?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: So when I see this list, I see one of two things.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe two things.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: One is the I'll you know, we'll let you put HFCs, but you're gonna put honey on there too.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, you know, the the the the tit for tat.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I can see that.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: But secondly, secondly, a lot of people don't realize that most honey consumed in America is imported from China and they add high fructose corn syrup to it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, here we are beyond labels.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, our labeling laws are so weak that they don't capture that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why, if you're going to eat honey, you want to get it local, you want to get it from local farms, you want to, that is one place where you really want to know your source of that honey, because honey is one of the most adulterated foods in the U.S.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: right now, and it's not captured on the label.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's again, to reiterate your point, that's why source matters.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when you're talking about everything we're talking about, all these dietary guidelines, one of the bottom lines is your source matters.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, like even when they're talking, they're promoting uh more beef, for example, and more eggs.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm not gonna walk into my grocery store.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they do say in the dietary guidelines, they said, um, and I'm quoting, prioritize high quality, nutrient-dense protein.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so what is high quality?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is where you and I would probably differ from other people.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: Most people are gonna now walk into their grocery store and say, oh, okay, so now it's okay to eat the beef and the eggs or whatever.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: I would not consider that high quality.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Even the organic ones, as we've talked about, they're gonna be sterilized or um, you know, they don't all have to be fed grass, for example.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so the nutrient profile is gonna be different.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Toxins can accumulate in the fat.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: So now we're saying eat more fat.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, even even the organic can have mRNA and vaccines in it.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: So so there you go.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, you know, my my um, you know, being uh being a layman and not being nearly as smart as you are, my you know what?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: My first reaction when I saw this inverted pyramid.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first I was happy.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: That was my first emotion.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: My second thought was man, is this gonna make animal agriculture do celebratory flips?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because animal agriculture has been demonized in the basic media, you know, cows are gonna kill us all, they're furt farting and burping and whatever.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and basically animals are gonna, you know, they've been the they've been the ugly, uh, the ugly Cinderella in the ashes, you know, for now years, and suddenly they're being invited to the ball.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I I can just, I could just literally hear, I'm talking about, you know, the industrial livestock sector.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not just people like me, but the industrial livestock, I can see them just bringing out the champagne when this thing came out, that that they they were suddenly um affirmed and vindicated in the greater culture um over over uh corn and soybeans.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: I could see that too.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a long, hard road.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: For them.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what before we move on to that, because protein, I got protein coming up um quickly here.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Before we move on to that, there's one caveat with the sugar.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: They said it's so this leaves wiggle room.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: So they said that while no amounts of added sugar is recommended or considered part of a healthy or nutritious diet, one meal should contain no more than 10 grams of added sugar.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: So now we have the guidelines saying no amount is recommended, but when implementation happens, let's say for school or for SNAP programs or you know, military meals, you can still have 10 grams of added sugar per meal.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: So add it up over three meals, that's 30 grams of sugar.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's a little bit of a loophole where they can get around that, you know, to get more sugar in that.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they said that when you're selecting snack foods, the added sugar limits should follow the FDA's quote healthy claim limit.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: So now they so the FDA gets to define what's allowed.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so this is another opportunity for lobbyists, for example, you know, to step in.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll have to see how that plays out in practice.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but let's move on to the protein and the fats.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the first thing I want to say is they have uh the secretaries have declared a de facto war on industrial seed oils.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm in here I'm talking about the hated eight, uh, largely.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking about soybean, canola, corn, cottonseed oil, rice bran, grapeseed, safflower, sunflower.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I say that because those oils that have propped up the food pyramid uh have now been replaced with whole foods that they're saying have these healthy fats like the meat, including beef, poultry, eggs, seafood, nuts, seeds, full-fat dairy, olives, and avocado.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: They're saying when you cook prioritized oils like olive oil, butter, and beef tallow.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Joel, did you ever think you'd see beef tallow?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, I know.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is like little, you know, happy tingles.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm telling you, Joel, as I'm going through the, as I was spending hours and hours over the last week going through these guidelines, it was an emotional roller coaster.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was like giddy with joy, like, and then I was like, uh, and like yeah, you know, yeah, yeah.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you can you can literally, you can literally hear in your head the the politics of the discussions.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean literally, literally, you can just so you know, you just just appreciate what was going on behind the curtain.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, for example, this one, these seed oils have been replaced by the very same fats that they replaced about 40 years ago, right?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: So now we have a whole reshuffling of the deck, and this war is being felt strongly by the oilseed industry.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: They've entered this kind of state of emergency.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: So the National Oil Seed Processors Association, they've issued a scathing statement.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: This was January 7th.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: They accused the USDA of using, quote, selective science and a narrow evidence base with limited citations to question the safety of seed oils.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the American Soybean Association followed suit.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: They expressed they are, quote, deeply concerned by the rhetoric and selectively cited studies regarding the health and safety of soybean oil.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: The president of the American Soybean Association said, and I quote, we look forward to continuing our work with the administration as we educate Maha Commission leadership on the health benefits of soy-based foods and soybean oil.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: So they are really coming out strong and attacking them.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the same argument I told you.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, many podcasts ago, I said they need to tread lightly because we don't have a lot of evidence for some of these things.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh like, for example, for the ultra-processed foods, we don't know.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Is it the processing itself?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: Is it the additives?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is it the emulsifiers?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we don't know.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that's they're calling that out.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah, you know, Cena, at the uh, I think it was at the Acres USA December meeting back back uh before Christmas, uh, I was up there speaking and I heard one of the I was visiting with some of the other uh people there, and um, and one of the guys, uh this was this was new for me.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: He said the problem, the main problem with soybeans or why they've got a bad wrap is not soybeans themselves, it's the hexane, it's the hexane that's used in the extraction process.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, at our farm, we do use local GMO-free, glyphosate-free soybeans.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: They they smell like peanut butter, but the whole bean and it's and it's cooked.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's roasted, it's it's a whole roasted bean.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and as far as I know, none of the none of the um implicating studies have have used whole roasted soybeans.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: They've all used either soybean meal, which has all the oils extracted, or hexane-treated beans, it they they they don't use the whole.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so uh I I I I I thought that was uh that was a you know, it it's like it's like demonizing uh I'm not gonna eat sweet corn anymore because they make high fructose out of corn.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um things happen when you when you chemically break up stuff.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: They just do, and you know that way better than I do.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so to not to not appreciate that uh is to I think gloss over.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's to broad brush something that's that shouldn't be broad brushed.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And now we're back to the food matrix.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's what you're talking about here.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is an excellent point.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad you brought this up because, yes, so it's the chemicals they use and it's the heat as well that they're using to process these, you know, they're like high heat industrial oils.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: It does change the matrix of it.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's unlike like a cold-pressed olive oil, for example, that's different, or cold-pressed avocado oil, that's different.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one reason why if you look at these new dietary guidelines, they include soy as a protein source source.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it says consume a variety of protein foods from animal sources, including eggs, poultry, seafood, and red meat, as well as a variety of plant-sourced protein foods, including beans, peas, lentils, legumes, nuts, seeds, and soy.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, but this is like a whole soy.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, to your point, yes, we're not demonizing the whole bean, it's the process that has taken it out of its natural food matrix.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's made it in an unnatural state, it's no longer a real nutrient-dense whole food.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is a processed food uh under high heat.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, excellent point.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is kind of this is gonna cause a potential supply cane, like chaotic situation.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, right goodness, look look look at look at the look at the the soybean farmers are already under under the gun, you know, with the with the Chinese backlash on the tariffs, and Trump is just giving them$12 billion bailout because the average soybean farmer is going to lose$100 per acre this year.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh and and and and two years ago they got another$12 billion bailout just two years ago.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the US the U.S.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: exports half of all of its soybeans.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: So half of the U.S.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: soybean crop is not even consumed in the U.S.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the world is awash in soybeans, but we're still propping it up and bailing out.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's don't even get me started on that, on that thing.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll go, it'll make my head explode.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, and that's exactly right.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: So our supply chain right now is built on the 1970s seed oil era guidelines.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: And because, like you said, federal subsidies have prioritized these commodity cripes, crops.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: So now we have this drastic shift de-emphasizing these oils.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: We're favoring butter and tallow.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, number one, we're we need time to ramp up to get the butter and tallow, or particularly the tallow, I would say.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then what are you gonna do with like these millions of crops of like soy and stuff that we're growing?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: So people are speculating a couple of things.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: One, you mentioned the foreign dumping, that they're saying historically that when US the US has a surplus of like crops they don't want, we export it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: So some are speculating that we're likely to see these industrial oils kind of dumped into developing markets, which will export our metabolic health crisis to the rest of the world.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: And the others, the other, there's two more um speculations.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: One is to get rid of the surplus.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're saying that more seed oils could be fed to chickens and pigs, for example, which would increase the linoleic acid content of the meat, meaning now Americans who are eating more of the chicken and pigs and you know, maybe even cows, they'll think that they're consuming these healthier fats based on the guidelines.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: But there's but those animals will now have more of these signature seed oils in them.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then the third is what you've already alluded to biofuels, that there might be a massive push to turn the excess soybean and like canola oil, for example, yeah, um, into biodiesel.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Biofuels, yeah, biodiesel.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't do those sound possible.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I I agree, I agree with all that 100%.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: That that's what I'm seeing.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: So then let's go on to my this is my favorite, unless you have something to add.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, Cena.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: What what I'm not seeing, what I'm not seeing is Trump saying, guys, the world is a wash in soybeans, the the the gravy train is over, the government is bankrupt, we don't have billions of dollars, and so suck it up and put your farms into grass and grow cows and and jerseys and and uh lower volume cows with high butter fat to make butter so that we can so that we can make a pound of butter, you know, per per um two gallons of milk instead of a pound of butter per 10 gallons of milk.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, is that what it takes?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, butter only comes from cream.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: You don't make butter from skim milk, you make butter from whole from cream.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so these these high-producing Holstein cows produce you know a quarter the cream that the lower-producing Guernseys and Jerseys and things like that produce.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what we predominantly have on in the middle.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the whole dairy industry is is about, is is uh is these big high-producing Holstein cows that that produce all this liquid product, but they don't make um but but it does it doesn't have cream.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well that's a problem.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is, it is.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so if we if we just if we just converted our our milk supply from these, you know, um 12 gallon a day uh Holsteins and went to a a uh a six gallon a day Guernsey, we would we would again we're back to the food matrix.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now suddenly you would balance the liquid milk and the and the butter.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: What we've done is we've completely imbalanced the liquid milk.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's one of the reasons that we have to skim milk is because there's not enough cream to make butter.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so so if you go back to a more balanced product to start with, now you get way more butter per um per gallon of liquid milk.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and and that that then balances it out in the milk that you, you know, I'm you know, I'm opposite you.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I guzzle a glass of milk every morning.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if if I haven't had a glass of raw milk, you know, I haven't I haven't joined the day.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so but you're drinking the raw milk.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm drinking full full whole raw milk from Jersey and Guernsey cows that are that are uh uh grass-based on uh the real deal.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you yeah, and uh well let me get back to that just a minute.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: But just a little caveat.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm not opposed to milk.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like I do drink raw, like A2A2 whole milk from time to time.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: I but I I cycle it like it's not a staple for me.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: But so I'm not opposed to it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so please don't send hate mail.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm not opposed to me uh to milk.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: So so so so so for you, for you drinking that milk is equivalent to me drinking out of the cow trough.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, and I think of it as helping my microbiome.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, you know, it's the same thing, you know.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: It so yeah, I sp I sprinkle it in like a garnish, you know.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but wait, so so if I'm hearing you right though, um, and I do want to move on to the to saturated fat, but you brought up this excellent point.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: So two thoughts.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: One, hearing you explain this about the cows emphasizes to me how much our food supply is really out of balance with nature.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: And two, that in order to supply this much more butter, are you saying that we're gonna have to replace the types of cows that these industrial farms are growing?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow, and that's and and and and more, yeah, and of course, and but the thing is, farmers have always adapted to the market, Cena.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Farmers have always adapted.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if if the market, if the market wants more butter and butter goes to whatever, 20 bucks a pound, guess who's gonna switch from Holsteins to Guernseys and Jerseys and Dutch belted and you know, uh other, you know, smaller framed and smaller production cows, more cows that give a more balanced milk.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um the those those will shift over.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it'll it'll be exciting.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: It absolutely would be fantastic, yes.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Be fantastic.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it would it would greatly it would greatly change uh cow health, herd health.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these these the the kind of dairies that I'm describing, those cows often last 10, 11 years.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: These, you know, these Holstein um milk factories, the cows don't even last.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um the average cow is dead at four years old.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's two years old, has a calf, hopefully has one more calf, and then she and then she um she basically skeletally and her her her whole she she just burns out.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like like like the average chicken only lasts um ten months.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: How long does a chicken last in the wild?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, they'll they'll they'll last five or six years, but they don't really lay well past about year three.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: That should be a real red flag for people.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Ten months.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, so so so think about this.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, we got to get to your other stuff, but um, but but think about this, you know, when we talk about human longevity, we we have we have so um whatever messed up dysfunctionalized is that I don't even think it's a word, but anyway, we we have so messed up our our animal agriculture that everything has a much, much lower life expectancy than it used to.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And is it any wonder that when you when you make your food source a um breakdown earlier in life, no no longevity, that you would see uh an equal breakdown in human longevity.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's so uh simplistic and profound at the same time.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's just that's just common sense, you know.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: So this so this actually could be such a great reset.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: They're calling it the great reset.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: It could be a really great reset for our entire food system, for the animals for and for us.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, well, this I just got even more excited about this.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: So yay! Okay, so now let's burst the bubble and go.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so so as we mentioned, so this is a huge, huge shakeup for the category of fat.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's a regime change, except for saturated fat.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to get into this because the guidelines have kept the 10% saturated fat cap that came from the the um 1990s dietary guidelines.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: So so uh let's talk about what this actually looks like, and then I'm gonna tell you uh what evidence we actually have at this point and why I'm surprised they kept this cap.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: So this is kind of a paradox in the dietary guidelines because I've played around, they have documents uh from uh the government where you can you can put menus together.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: So you can put your own menus together based on servant sizes they're recommending.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Based on these guidelines, I've played around with them.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I can tell you, it's really difficult to follow these new real food pillars, focusing on these high-fat foods and staying under that 10% saturated fat cap.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, on one hand, as I said, most of the saturated fat currently in the standard American diet doesn't come from whole foods, it comes from those processed foods I mentioned.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you remove those processed foods, you're going to take out those saturated fats.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: But you're replacing them with these real foods.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: And again, as we already talked about, saturated fat from a donut is going to be different than saturated fat from grass-fed, grass-finished lamb.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: So here's one of the problems.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: The protein requirement has increased, which I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a good thing.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is the first time the protein targets have jumped.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: They jumped from 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight to between 1.2 and 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it's nearly doubled the previous standard.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: The old standard's goal was just to prevent protein deficiency.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: This new standard is to, they say, optimize your metabolic health.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we do know that many people are deficient in protein.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: And particularly when you get people who have chronic illnesses like autoimmune conditions, you can tend to even be more deficient in protein as your body starts to sometimes break down your own internal protein to make antibodies to try to protect you.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a good thing.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: I played around with the numbers, and to meet my protein requirements, every time that I came up with a menu, I was over the 10% saturated fat cap.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: So let me give you an example.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: Six ounces of beef, two eggs, three cups of milk, two and a half cups broccoli, one and a half cups of a banana.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: I had to throw the banana in there for us, Joel.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Good, good.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: One and a half cups cooked oatmeal and three and a half teaspoons of butter.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that would give me 1600 calories a day.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that means I could have about 17.8 grams of saturated fat.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: So let's just say it's 18 grams of saturated fat that I could have in a day, according to the cap.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what I just read to you on that menu comes out to about 35 grams of saturated fat.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like approaching 80% too much of my saturated fats.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, and and I did this time and time again with different menus.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I'm not saying you can't achieve it, but I'm saying like the basic foods that I eat or that I would put together for a menu, every single time I did it, I'm over the cap of the saturated fat.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: So this means uh this is this is going to be an issue for when they're trying to implement, or it could be an issue when they're trying to implement these guidelines in schools or in VA hospitals, nursing homes.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you stay within that cap and still give them those foods?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Cena is the re is the reason because because meat has saturated fat in it.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's exactly right.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I'm saying.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not adding anything.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: So if you like this menu is great.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is not, it's not a fringe menu, right?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't go to these extremes.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: It contains um beef and eggs and milk and broccoli, like the it contains the whole foods that they're saying are nutrient dense and that are now foundational to these guidelines.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's no junk food, no fast food, no processed food, no seed oils, right?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I followed exactly what they gave me, but every time it decisively failed.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm finding it difficult for them to be able to use these guidelines to create real healthy food menus and be in compliance.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: And as you know, organizations, these federal organizations, have to be in compliance with the guidelines.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the only way I could make this in compliance is like I could replace the eggs with egg whites, for example, or I could replace the whole milk with um a skim milk, uh, for example, or take out the butter.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um but basically I was about, let's say in here, I was about uh, let's see, 20, 16, 17 grams over.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: So if I took out my dairy, so if I took out all the milk and one egg, then I could be I can I could meet my saturated fat cap, but then you know what, Joel?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Then I'm deficient in the protein requirement.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you see what I'm saying?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, so uh so a good polyface breakfast of eggs and sausage.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: That oh that that sausage would send you through the through the ceiling on uh on fat.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so my my breakfast alone that I eat, uh I I reach my saturated fat intake on my not this menu thing, my regular breakfast that I eat, I've already reached the cap.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now, um I will tell you that um schools, so it will be a little bit easier for schools to meet the uh to not exceed that cap because just on January 14th, Trump signed into law what's called the Whole Milk for Healthy Kids Act.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this actually exempts the milk from sat the saturated felt saturated fat from milk.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: So the schools don't have to count that toward their saturated fat 10% cap.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: So the schools have a little bit of wiggle room there.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: As far as I know, the other other organizations don't.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but still, little difficulty there.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so then so the question is then why did they keep the saturated fat cap?
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so this is where I want to spend our last um moments here.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, from their document, I'm gonna read to you some information.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: They said that so this is from the um dietary guidelines actually like supporting uh information.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: So they always provide like hundreds of pages of supporting scientific evidence for their conclusions.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: What I'm reading to you now comes from that supporting information.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: It says, and I quote, the persistence of the recommendation to reduce saturated fat intake and replace it with linoleic acid-rich oils, these are the seed oils, over several decades reflects enduring confidence in the traditional diet heart hypothesis.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: Several moderate to large randomized controlled trials conducted between the 1960s and 1980s tested this hypothesis by providing linoleic acid-rich oils and reducing saturated fats by restricting intake of dietary fats, meat, and the partially hydrogenated vegetable or oils and shortenings.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: They lowered these interventions, they lowered blood cholesterol, and this is what it says none of the individualized randomized control trials demonstrated the anticipated benefit.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, what that says is when they actually replaced the saturated fats with these seed oils, it didn't work.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: You saw that the cholesterol lowered, but then it says a couple suggested potential for even increased risk in some populations, despite greater cholesterol lowering.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: So cholesterol went down, but your risk of heart disease and events, cardiac events, went up.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: It says systematic reviews and meta-analyses of the remaining randomized controlled trials report that replacing saturated fats with linoleic acid-rich oils does not reduce cardio, uh basically heart disease events or mortality or all-cause mortality.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: Overall, the evidence does not provide causal support for reducing saturated fat below 10% of energy or replacing saturated fat with linoleic acid-rich oils to prevent um heart disease or death.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: Then it says, Although um causal, although causal testing in randomized trials fail to confirm benefit, the recommendation to replace saturated fat with linoleic acid remains central to U.S.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: dietary recommendations.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: Its presence reflects how early interpretations of the evidence were shaped by selective reporting and reliance on surrogate markers.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: Together, these factors fostered enduring confidence in the saturated fat to PUFA substitution hypotheses, despite the absence of verified clinical benefits.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: For most of the history of the dietary guidelines of America, interpretation of the evidence was distorted by publication bias.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: Early meta-analysis supporting replacement of saturated fat with litolagic acid oils were based on incomplete data sets, as randomized control trials with null or unfavorable outcomes were not fully published for decades.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, what?
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: What's going on here?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's hidden data.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: So sure enough, there's there was hidden data that came to light.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: And Joel, so I think you're gonna love this.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: So um, just to get everybody up to speed, the hypothesis was that if you lowered saturated fat and cholesterol then uh from your diet, your cholesterol would lower and it would lower your risk of heart disease and death.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah from this is the this is the uh Ansel Keys, the Ansel Keys stuff.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, this is the Diet Heart hypothesis where we get and it it's the it's the official position of the American Heart Association, da-da-da-da-da.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: So this started in the late 1950s.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about this on this program, so I'm just gonna briefly talk about this part and go into my point.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: So in the in the night in the late 1950s, when this Diet Heart hypothesis came out, obviously promoted by Ansel Keys, um, basically it was supported by an observational study.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: This was his seven countries study.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: As we've talked about before, he cherry-picked the data, he picked this this the countries that fit the data.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: It was not a clinical trial, it was an observational study.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: But get this, Joel.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: They only recorded dietary data from less than 5% of the participants.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: So they only had diet records for less than 5% of the participants.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was about 500 people.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: The 500 people.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: And the methods they used were not standardized, and they were not validated methods for even collecting that dietary data.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it goes on and on with problems with the statistical statistical measurements that they did.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: So this is what was the basis of this, and it gained huge popularity.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: So what happened was countries, including the US, like the US, Sweden, Finland, and Australia in particular, recognized the need for more rigorous clinical trial data.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: So governments from those countries started doing large randomized controlled clinical trials.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: Altogether, they tested um about 67,000 people.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they tested them for one to seven years.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: This this was the the most extensive research that had been done at the time.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now uh what happened was these tests collectively showed that they did not provide support for the hypothesis, and many critics pointed that out at the time that these these when you actually did this study, and what they did was they actually replaced the saturated fat with like the seed oils, and they didn't find uh benefits, and actually some of them they found harm.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna talk about two of those real quickly because these two were buried.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: These are the two that they're talking about now in these new dietary guidelines.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: These were buried.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: So these two were two of the most rigorous trials that were conducted.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: One was the Minnesota Coronary Experiment, and one was the Sydney Diet Hearth study.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: These were both started in the 1960s and they ended in 1973.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: The dates are important because this data was available when the first dietary guidelines were established.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so all of these trials that we're talking about, they were all available.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: They have this information.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: So the goal was simple: they replaced the saturated animal fats with these quote-unquote heart-healthy seed oils, and they saw what would happen.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: In both studies, the participants eating the seed oils did see their cholesterol levels drop.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's what was actually published.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: But decades later, a doctor named Christopher Ramsey, Ramsden, now he was part of the National Institutes of Health.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: He actually tracked down the raw data in a dusty old basement of the original author.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, can you believe this?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: So he he read, um, for example, the Minnesota, it's like national treasure.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's like the Indiana Jones of the nutrition world, right?
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, so he so it was probably really cool.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: He's reading the the one study, I think, that was published on this Minnesota Coronary Experiment.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: And this was um, it was the one still one of the largest gold standard experiments ever done to test the heart health diet um hypothesis.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was double-blinded, had parallel groups, randomized controlled intervention.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: The participant participants were institutionalized.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, they were either in a state hospital or nursing home.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: All the food was provided for them.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: There were almost 10,000 patients, and they were tracked for 56 months.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you this is really gold standard.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: How much better can you get than this, right?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, so this Dr.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: Ramsden, he reads the study results and he's thinking, there's gotta be more data here.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's a huge study.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: So the author of the the lead author had already passed away.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: So he actually contacted his son.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um his son, this was in 2011.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_02: His son drove to his parents' house, went through the basement, and he found this stack of data in an old filing cabinet.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he it was on these ancient magnetic computer tapes and reams of yellow documents.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: The tapes had to actually be uh translated so that the modern computer could read it.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and what he discovered was that for about half a century, there was this bombshell that when he looked at this Minnesota data, for every drop in cholesterol, there was a 22% higher risk of death.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, as you know, this is totally opposite of what our medical establishment is based on.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_02: Even today, yeah, they will look at your cholesterol levels and say, oh, you're over this, you know, man-made benchmark.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna put you on statins, right?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, back here in the 70s, we already knew that when you dropped your cholesterol, you had a higher risk of death in these participants.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: The Sydney study, also uncovered by him, showed the same thing.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: They had a higher risk of death from heart disease if they replaced those saturated fats by the seed oils and had this drop in cholesterol.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is incredible.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: This was all buried.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_02: Same thing, it's the same pattern.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like the seven um country studies I just told you, data was admitted, right?
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: So this Rams did then went on to review the five studies he could find where polyunsaturated fats were substituted for saturated fats.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: And all of them, yes, they reduced cholesterol, but they did not reduce deaths from heart disease.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the dietary guidelines, this is this is where I'm really taking aim with this, because listen to this the dietary guidelines say uh they acknowledge this, and they say recovery and inclusion of the data from these trials trials fundamentally altered the evidence base, revealing that the anticipated reduction in coronary heart disease mortality failed to occur despite substantial cholesterol lowering.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this incomplete and selective record created an enduring perception of benefit that continues to influence dietary policy despite the absence of confirmed clinical efficacy.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then they go on, you know, they talk about it.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: A half century of research has not confirmed that lowering saturated fat below the 10% of energy or substituting it with linolic acid-rich oils reduces coronary heart disease or mortality risk.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_02: Within typical intake ranges, saturated fat appears neither uniquely harmful nor protective.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: The evidence therefore supports a neutral stance.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: Foods containing saturated fat can be part of a healthy diet pattern when consumed in reasonable amounts.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: And within minimally processed extents, the recommendation in general, saturated fat consumption should not exceed 10% of total daily calories.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I will have you note, in these studies that I'm talking about, uh that were done, these randomized control trials, including the two that I just mentioned, I will tell you, at the time, these isn't this is in the 60s and early 70s, the amount of saturated fat that was being consumed in this in the standard diet was between 12 and 18.3 percent of their calories.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_02: So where do they get this 10%?
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: So so I'm telling you, Joel, so I dig uh I dug deeper into that.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, by the way, in wondering why this data was buried, the Minnesota study, and this is total speculation on my part.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_02: Guess who co-authored the Minnesota study?
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_02: Can you guess?
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Tim Walls.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, Ansel Keys.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: Ansel Keys, yeah.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: So no surprise it got buried.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so so here's my last piece, and I know we're going over it, but here's my last piece that I really want to um get across.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so this was known at the time.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, Ansel Keys knew he was co-author of that study, right?
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, data was buried, but other studies were published that showed that this dietary guideline was not supported.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then why did they keep the cap?
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: There was the whole dietary guidelines came out of the McGovern report.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this was uh 1977, the U.S.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_02: Senate Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs published the dietary goals for the United States.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_02: That was widely known as the McGovern Report.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: That eventually became in 1980 the dietary guidelines.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, the first dietary guidelines.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: In this McGovern Senate Select Committee hearing, this is where they have these debates about what we should do about cholesterol and saturated fat.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: So here's a quote from these debates.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: The NIH director, this is this is pertaining to cholesterol first.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: The NIH director at the time was Dr.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: Robert Levy.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: He admitted on record that nobody knew if lowering cholesterol would actually decrease your risk of heart attack.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, they didn't know.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: This is what he said.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: This is still presumptive.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_02: It is unproven.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: There is no doubt that cholesterol can be lowered by diet.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: The problem with all these trials is that none of them have shown a difference in heart attack or death rate in the treated group.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so they already knew it.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: Now, pertaining to saturated fat, the same guy, Dr.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_02: Levy, who was the NIH director, he said where doubt exists as a scientific question is whether specific lowering of cholesterol, changing the amount of saturated fat in the diet of the average American will prevent heart attack.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: The National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute is committed to getting That final piece of evidence, so we can go out with a massive health campaign.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so he's saying we don't, we don't know, we don't have the evidence.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_02: Then another doctor chimes in, Dr.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: Pete Ahrens, he was a clinical nutrition researcher specialized in lipids.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_02: He said the proof is not there yet.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_02: Then the last doctor chimes in, Dr.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_02: Robert Olson of St.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_02: Louis University.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_02: He says, um, he says, I pleaded in my report and will plead again orally here for more research on the problem before we make announcements to the American public.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_02: And do you know what Senator George McGovern said?
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the one who was leading this committee?
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: This was his response.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_02: Senators don't have the luxury that the research scientist does of waiting until every last shred of evidence is in.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they all knew, they all knew that they didn't, they didn't have the evidence, and they knew of these studies, and they're saying we don't know, and they pushed it through anyways.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the politics and that became the the whole uh whatever paradigm of the land, if you will.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so from what I can tell, and this is speculative on my part, but um, you know, he a staffer, a staffer was the one from this this report that actually came up with these guidelines, you know, taking everybody's input and came up with them.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: From the what I can tell, and of course I got to look into this more.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's because I was like, where did this 10% thing come from?
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds like you know, they had decided 30% fat.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like they just divide he just divided it into thirds.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna have 30% from saturated, 30% from monos, and 30% from PUFA.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, 10% from 10% from each one, 10% PUFA, 10% from monos, right?
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so it will, it's not even a scientific thing to begin with, you know.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: And again, um, they they never tested it at this point, except those those few that I mentioned that one of them did test actually doing it at 10% and showed a negative outcome, right?
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_02: And they didn't and and it wasn't tested on women at this point.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, it's crazy.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh I'll I'll end on this and let and then let you have the final say.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's many reviews that have been conducted about all of the studies that we have to date, and then all of the studies that they had at the time that these dietary guidelines came about.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_02: One of the studies that did examine the data they had available said um this was the this was the conclusion.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: The present review concludes that dietary advice not merely needs review, it should not have been introduced.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's pretty bold.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that tells you how bad it is, you know.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: But so somehow, somehow, even though these studies, these studies that we have, the largest studies available, people were consuming saturated fat up to 18% of their calories, and they showed no increased risk of heart disease, no, no increased risk of death from heart disease, and yet we're still back at that 10% cap.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, so Joel, I I mean, I'm thinking this is another political move.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what do you think?
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh you know, these things you you can only uh well, it's it's back to uh you can only be so weird.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so they they have to take their weirdness in steps.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um and if they if they took it all at once it it's just I mean, I I would like to say my my question for the week is are you still going to get checked for cholesterol?
• 1:09:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, after I mean it it it it's um it doesn't really mean much, and yet people religiously go in and get checked, get their cholesterol checked and go on statins and all these things, and it it it's completely inconclusive.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, my my first response is oh well this has to be the first time the government has ever done anything uh arbitrary and capricious.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just has to be.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you know we're we're out of time, but um, but you know, I um I think it's a fair question.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: How important is checking your cholesterol to you?
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how is that a is that still a you know an important part of your you know your health uh your health story?
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um because this has been going on a long time, but it's all it is kind of a fabrication and it's not real.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: So well, thanks for uncovering it for us, Cena, and thanks for your insight into these into these uh new guidelines.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a fascinating thing, and and um it will be very interesting to see how they get uh how they get implemented in as much as virtually everyone in diet i in the dietary circles, dietitians, you know, credentialed registered dietitians that have their whatever their you know their uh alphabet soup is behind their names, um dietitians, are steeped in the previous guidelines.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you just don't change from you know from Methodist to Presbyterian in a day.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or or goodness, certainly not from Methodist to Moslem uh in a day.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or or you know, um I mean you can, but it's not it's pretty rare.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it'll be interesting to see the the the the kind of just you know internal uh what practical outcomes that this generates, you know, throughout the throughout the food world.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um and if I could just real quick um on this topic of saturated fat.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's it's an interesting kind of um juxtaposition because they've outlined and I read to you some of it, this case against why you shouldn't even have this cap.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_02: But then there is the cap.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt like the case was stronger to get rid of that cap than the case to get rid of the seed oils.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, although I like to get rid of both, right?
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: But you know what I'm saying?
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_02: So um, I'm thinking maybe they're trying to avoid like lawsuits or something because this is a big paradigm shift in the medical establishment.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that might be it, but at least they laid the groundwork by providing that supportive document of evidence.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: So now there's a record of it, you know, and they've brought that to light.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a positive.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_02: I do think they should have gone all the way with that, but you know, again, I'm not behind the closed doors knowing, but they had they had good grounds to do that.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that would have not only helped our food supply, but that would have helped uh us push through with the medical freedoms that we're longing for.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and it would have uh it would have made menu compliance much, much simpler.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh right right now, it's as you said, it's they're almost contradictory, you know, contradictory uh um numbers.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and um that that will that will become apparent as menus start to get you know created and uh those kind of things will become apparent.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll have you know uh organizations like moms across America and stuff, uh you know, they're gonna they're they're gonna uh watch those kind of things.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you know, that's a good point too, because they did get rid of the cholesterol, like they quietly got rid of that.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe that was in 2015.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_02: I can't recall the year off the top of my head, but they quietly got rid of that cholesterol cap.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Remember that they had for a while?
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_02: And people just didn't really talk about it, but they realized it wasn't a big deal.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so now why didn't they just do the same thing with this one?
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just quietly get rid of that, you know, make a lot of noise over here so you don't see we just got rid of that cap, you know.
• 1:14:27
  unknown: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you all again.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thank you, Cena, for uh for bringing this out.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we thank everybody for joining us on another Beyond Labels podcast.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we look forward to visiting with you again next week.