Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BREAKING 2-PART SPECIAL: 'I SURVIVED BTK SERIAL KILLER' Part 2

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BREAKING 2-PART SPECIAL: 'I SURVIVED BTK SERIAL KILLER' Part 2 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greace bind torture kill, denistrator, the
0:17
Speaker 1: dogcatcher turned serial killer. We know he murdered ten people.
0:22
Speaker 1: He's confessed to that. How many more victims are out
0:27
Speaker 1: there still unaccounted for? How many families wonder what happened
0:32
Speaker 1: to mom? What happened to my sister, what happened to
0:34
Speaker 1: my daughter, my granddaughter? Maybe you can help us. Coming
0:40
Speaker 1: forward now, Gina Rodriguez to tell the story of her
0:46
Speaker 1: hook cup, her encounter with BTK. Can it dislodge memories
0:54
Speaker 1: from other women? Can they help us establish more of
0:59
Speaker 1: a motorc opera die method of operation and help us
1:03
Speaker 1: connect BTK Dennis Raider to other victims. I know they're
1:09
Speaker 1: out there. I've got no doubt in my mind. Right now,
1:13
Speaker 1: BTK Dennis Raider is undergoing a valiant attempt to avoid
1:19
Speaker 1: the death penalty, which so far he's managed to escape.
1:24
Speaker 1: In the days leading up to many of his murders,
1:27
Speaker 1: Dennis Raider would take special care to stalk the victim,
1:32
Speaker 1: figuring out their routine, even scoping out their workplace.
1:37
Speaker 2: Listen, if you've read.
1:38
Speaker 3: Much about serial killers, they go through what they call
1:40
Speaker 3: the different phases. That's one of the phases they go
1:44
Speaker 3: through as a trolling stage. Basically you're looking for a
1:47
Speaker 3: victim at that time, and that you could be trolling
1:49
Speaker 3: for months or years. But once you lock in on
1:53
Speaker 3: a certain person that you've become stocking, and that might
1:55
Speaker 3: be several of them, but do you really hol me
1:56
Speaker 3: in on that person, they basically become the that's that's
2:01
Speaker 3: the victim.
2:04
Speaker 1: Here we see the same thing happening Sheriff Vernon with.
2:10
Speaker 4: He has told me directly that he has stocked victims
2:13
Speaker 4: for years. Again, the bar is spot on because you know,
2:19
Speaker 4: he went over one project he called it the Blackout Bar,
2:24
Speaker 4: where where he was working on a victim from that location.
2:27
Speaker 4: Uh so, you know what what she's saying matches, you know,
2:32
Speaker 4: not just his patterns, but but it matches with what
2:36
Speaker 4: we already know and has confirmed through his own stuff
2:40
Speaker 4: that that that he used bars and found victims from bars,
2:44
Speaker 4: that that he stocked them for years. You know, we've
2:47
Speaker 4: got again what I shared about you about the news
2:50
Speaker 4: paper clipping to one of the drawings, you know where
2:54
Speaker 4: where nurse had a date with death. Uh it's it's
2:59
Speaker 4: you know, it's exactly what I would have expected. And
3:04
Speaker 4: again her coming forward. We know through his writings and
3:08
Speaker 4: timeline that he created, he's got markings of kidnappings where
3:15
Speaker 4: there wasn't a death involved with it.
3:17
Speaker 1: You know, Cheryl McCollum, when you and I worked together
3:21
Speaker 1: in the courts and the justice system, we weighed witness
3:27
Speaker 1: and victims credibility very carefully. I would go over a
3:31
Speaker 1: story over and over and over with a victim or
3:35
Speaker 1: a witness before I would put them on the stand
3:37
Speaker 1: to see if their story ever changed, or if they
3:41
Speaker 1: added to the story. Adding to the story wouldn't really
3:43
Speaker 1: bother me. That would just mean that they hadn't been
3:46
Speaker 1: asked the right question yet. Changing the story is a
3:49
Speaker 1: whole other thing. But you also look for detail in
3:53
Speaker 1: the story, for instance, in important times of your life.
3:57
Speaker 1: Sometimes you can remember detail, like I can remember what
4:03
Speaker 1: I wore to my fiance's funeral. It was the dress
4:08
Speaker 1: of my sister's. I never wore it again, but right
4:11
Speaker 1: now I can remember it. It's funny, Cheryl, funny odd
4:16
Speaker 1: that a lot of other facts are all a blur.
4:19
Speaker 5: To me.
4:19
Speaker 1: It's just a big blur. Did you hear Gina describe
4:26
Speaker 1: so perfectly what this guy had on a maroon suit
4:33
Speaker 1: and she remembers white shoes. But yet when she meets
4:37
Speaker 1: him for lunch, he has on a completely different outfit.
4:42
Speaker 1: He has a different affect. He looks like he works outside.
4:47
Speaker 1: Do you think that I had anything to do with
4:49
Speaker 1: his job as a dog catcher.
4:51
Speaker 6: I had the opportunity to speak with this Rodriguez twice
4:55
Speaker 6: before before today. What sticks out for me I believe
5:00
Speaker 6: that his whole persona was different because his motivation was different.
5:05
Speaker 6: This was no longer to meet somebody, to stalk somebody
5:08
Speaker 6: and select somebody. This was to get that person alan
5:12
Speaker 6: and harm them. He looked different, he acted different because
5:16
Speaker 6: what he was about that evening was completely different.
5:20
Speaker 1: Take a listen to the dogcatcher killer.
5:23
Speaker 3: What I called my hit clothes, and it closed up
5:29
Speaker 3: basically different. You know, things that I need to get
5:31
Speaker 3: rid of later. Not the same kind of clothes I
5:33
Speaker 3: had on. I don't want other better word us at
5:37
Speaker 3: the crime clothes or hit clothes.
5:39
Speaker 2: I just called him git clothes.
5:42
Speaker 1: Was his outfit is a dogcatcher at Sheriff Verdon.
5:44
Speaker 4: So at that time, Nancy, so you have the timeframe correct.
5:50
Speaker 4: So he came back from the military, he worked for
5:55
Speaker 4: Leaker's grocery store for a while, and then he got
5:58
Speaker 4: on with Coleman Camping Supplies and then moved to Cesna
6:05
Speaker 4: and he lost his job with Cessna in seventy three
6:10
Speaker 4: towards the fall, and that's when he started college on
6:13
Speaker 4: his GI bill. His wife was working and from the
6:17
Speaker 4: end of seventy three until he got hired in the
6:21
Speaker 4: later part of seventy four for ad T. He was
6:25
Speaker 4: unemployed during the time that she's described me, and then
6:28
Speaker 4: he worked for eighty T from seventy four until approximately
6:33
Speaker 4: eighty eight when he was laid off from ADT. Then
6:37
Speaker 4: he went to work for the Census through eighty nine
6:39
Speaker 4: and ninety and he started with Park City as a
6:43
Speaker 4: dog catcher in ninety one.
6:45
Speaker 1: Got you so that would not apply to this time period?
6:49
Speaker 1: You really? I tried to my interest on something you
6:53
Speaker 1: just said. You mentioned he had been in the military
6:57
Speaker 1: and he worked at SESNA, and he told Gina that
7:01
Speaker 1: he She said, why are you here? And he says, McConnell,
7:06
Speaker 1: McConnell Air Force Base. What do you make of that?
7:10
Speaker 5: Dale Carson, Well, I listened to this and I'm fascinated
7:14
Speaker 5: to hear these details. The ADT connection. Obviously allows him
7:19
Speaker 5: to understand pairs on phone lines, and the ability to
7:23
Speaker 5: cut phone lines for early alarm systems and to run
7:27
Speaker 5: pairs to other locations where you could listen to victims
7:30
Speaker 5: phone calls. Is really fascinating to me because the technology
7:35
Speaker 5: back then allows you to know a phone. If you
7:38
Speaker 5: knew a phone number, you could find a location. Now
7:41
Speaker 5: that's no longer as true as it used to be,
7:43
Speaker 5: but it certainly was true then. And of course his
7:47
Speaker 5: employment with these various agencies allowed him to have access
7:51
Speaker 5: to the tools and equipment, particularly adat, necessary to trap
7:55
Speaker 5: those lines and to use them to his own devices.
7:58
Speaker 5: So when I first heard Jenna to talk about the
8:01
Speaker 5: guy that she called and reported the bad phone calls
8:04
Speaker 5: to was the same voice, I thought, well, that can't
8:07
Speaker 5: possibly be right. But now that I understand that his
8:10
Speaker 5: knowledge and information, the eighty eight a et trap wine
8:14
Speaker 5: which used the telephone pairs, could have been easily used
8:17
Speaker 5: by him in order to maintain surveillance on his victims.
8:22
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dennis Rider in his own words.
8:25
Speaker 3: Uh, anyway, I walked from a car as a telephone repairman.
8:30
Speaker 3: As I walked there, don the telephone helmet, I had
8:33
Speaker 3: a briefcase, went to one other address just to kind of.
8:36
Speaker 2: Size up the house.
8:37
Speaker 3: I'd walked by it a couple of times, but I
8:38
Speaker 3: wanted to check it a little bit more. As I
8:41
Speaker 3: approached it, I could hear a panel sound and went
8:44
Speaker 3: to this other door knock that we were recently working
8:47
Speaker 3: on telephone.
8:48
Speaker 2: Repairs in area, and went.
8:51
Speaker 3: To her, went to her and knocking the door and
8:53
Speaker 3: ask her if I can check her telephone lines inside?
8:55
Speaker 1: Now, isn't it true that writer had joined the Air Force?
8:59
Speaker 1: When we say he was in the military, He was
9:01
Speaker 1: in the Air Force. He did his basic training at Lachland,
9:05
Speaker 1: and then he moved on to another air base. And
9:08
Speaker 1: then when she asks him, tell me again, Gina Rodriguez,
9:12
Speaker 1: how McConnell air Force Base came up when.
9:15
Speaker 7: I was asking him about himself and he had told
9:21
Speaker 7: me he was lived in California but was here on
9:25
Speaker 7: business in Wichita. And I said, what type of business
9:29
Speaker 7: there you on? And all he said to me was McConnell,
9:32
Speaker 7: which is the air Force base. He didn't voluntary anymore. McConnell.
9:39
Speaker 1: You know, it's another interesting fact with there's so much,
9:41
Speaker 1: she said, it's interesting. Taught to Joni Johnson when he
9:45
Speaker 1: was saying that while he was claiming to be from California,
9:49
Speaker 1: he said he was angry at the city of Wichita
9:52
Speaker 1: because of local politics, which means he's not living in California.
9:57
Speaker 1: But that said, and she Gina Rodriguez asked him, did
10:03
Speaker 1: you hear about that family that got killed? He knew
10:06
Speaker 1: about the track in the snow, and he let it
10:10
Speaker 1: slip that, Wow, Gop sure had a lot of a
10:13
Speaker 1: big mess to clean up.
10:14
Speaker 8: Yeah, there are several interesting things he says, and some
10:16
Speaker 8: of them are contradictory to each other. You know, you're right,
10:19
Speaker 8: if you're from California, you would't expect to know as
10:21
Speaker 8: much about local politics as he's claiming he does. And
10:24
Speaker 8: then the murder situation. The other thing that kind of
10:26
Speaker 8: jumped out to me was he talks about growing up
10:28
Speaker 8: in an orphanage or spending some time in an orphanage,
10:31
Speaker 8: and then he makes some comment about doing things in
10:33
Speaker 8: his parents' house. So I'm not sure what was going
10:36
Speaker 8: on with him in terms of not being able to
10:38
Speaker 8: keep his story straight, But there were several contradictions in
10:40
Speaker 8: some of the things he was saying.
10:55
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace Sure Vernon joining us who
11:02
Speaker 1: is now assembled the BTK Task Force. Sure, Vernon, what
11:05
Speaker 1: do we know about his upbringing?
11:07
Speaker 4: Well, you know, the real story is his father was
11:11
Speaker 4: in the military when he was born. They lived in Columbus, Kansas.
11:18
Speaker 4: His father came back from a service and returned to
11:24
Speaker 4: that area and then moved from Columbus to Wichita for employment.
11:30
Speaker 4: And they moved which I believe somewhere when Dennis was
11:34
Speaker 4: four or five years old, and they were there. But
11:39
Speaker 4: one thing, unfortunately, from the last eleven months, I've learned
11:43
Speaker 4: a lot about Denis Raider, some things that really stick
11:48
Speaker 4: out to me from what she said, Dennis had went
11:52
Speaker 4: to California on his return back from overseas to military,
11:58
Speaker 4: so he had been in California when he returned in
12:02
Speaker 4: seventy Additionally, mister O'taro's watch was taken. She she mentioned
12:11
Speaker 4: he had a nice watch on that was a military
12:15
Speaker 4: type watch that was taken from mister Oto. And we
12:20
Speaker 4: know Dennis said he kept that watch for years. Addition
12:24
Speaker 4: to that, mister o'to had also been in the Air
12:29
Speaker 4: Force and had had some relationships with people still there.
12:35
Speaker 4: So you know, when when the timeframe is that she's
12:39
Speaker 4: given us would have been shortly after that O'to murder,
12:44
Speaker 4: So you know, of course that that would be on
12:47
Speaker 4: my mind as well, that he had just retired from
12:52
Speaker 4: from the Air Force. He's missing a watch, you know,
12:55
Speaker 4: and Dennis's describing from what it sounds, you know, how
13:00
Speaker 4: how gruesome the scene was at the Otaro Mergers. So
13:04
Speaker 4: there there is just so much with what she's brought forth. Uh,
13:08
Speaker 4: you know, I hope to to be able to meet
13:11
Speaker 4: with her soon go over a lot of details.
13:14
Speaker 9: Uh.
13:15
Speaker 4: You know, I know from from going through a lot
13:18
Speaker 4: of the things that we've researched, he did have a
13:22
Speaker 4: lot of men's watches. Uh. There there was a tremendous
13:26
Speaker 4: amount of jewelry recovered. So again it's it's good possibility.
13:31
Speaker 4: So you know, the her her story to me is
13:35
Speaker 4: is very spot on matches what what I've learned, and
13:40
Speaker 4: and again I think there's possibilities that that we might
13:44
Speaker 4: be able to uh confirm her being being with him
13:50
Speaker 4: through number one, the bag maybe that he had he
13:54
Speaker 4: retained those things for a long time. Uh, We've got
13:58
Speaker 4: pictures and descriptions of watches. So I'm looking forward to
14:02
Speaker 4: to looking harder into what happened to her. And again
14:06
Speaker 4: the phone calls, there's there's other victims out there that
14:11
Speaker 4: we've learned had received different phone calls. Raider itself told
14:16
Speaker 4: me that, like the Otaro's, he had called them at
14:21
Speaker 4: one point, you know, basically confirming they were home and
14:24
Speaker 4: seeing if a metal answered, stuff like that. So, uh,
14:29
Speaker 4: there's a lot here that that that is really huge
14:32
Speaker 4: to me.
14:32
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dennis Raider the time.
14:37
Speaker 3: I approached him and told him I was wanted in California,
14:42
Speaker 3: needed some car, basically the same thing that I told
14:45
Speaker 3: you tarrells Uh. We went through the house, kind of
14:48
Speaker 3: cleaned it up. It's called the right hand earl. You
14:51
Speaker 3: go from rover room, picked everything's up. That guy took
14:55
Speaker 3: mister Tarrell's watch. I guess I took a radio. I
15:00
Speaker 3: I forgot about that, but apparently I took a radio.
15:02
Speaker 9: Why did you take these things?
15:04
Speaker 2: I don't know. I have no idea. So you went
15:08
Speaker 2: through Were you looking for something? What's a personal lands? Yes?
15:12
Speaker 2: I take some personal ambs from there.
15:13
Speaker 9: Did you take personal lives in every one of these incidents?
15:17
Speaker 3: Uh? I did on the hedge. Uh, I don't remember
15:22
Speaker 3: anything of Vicky's place the Cheryl's we got to watch
15:27
Speaker 3: in the radio. I don't think I did any of rights. Uh,
15:33
Speaker 3: Ryan's No, I don't think so.
15:35
Speaker 9: Fox.
15:35
Speaker 2: Yes, I picked some things from Fox because hit.
15:37
Speaker 1: And miss speaking of that signature in my mind. And
15:42
Speaker 1: I'd like to hear Cheryl and Dale jump in on this.
15:45
Speaker 1: And Gina, did you ever find that driver's license or
15:49
Speaker 1: that missing necklace or those missing clothes?
15:51
Speaker 7: No?
15:52
Speaker 1: What clothing specifically went missing?
15:54
Speaker 7: It was a and I had received as a Christmas gift.
15:58
Speaker 1: It was a good brawl, a red bra.
16:00
Speaker 7: Uh, it was a Christmas prison of mine.
16:03
Speaker 1: And the necklace do you remember the necklace? What was
16:06
Speaker 1: that like?
16:07
Speaker 7: Yes? It was It was on a long gold chain
16:12
Speaker 7: and it was a circular that had several different rhinestones
16:19
Speaker 7: in it, like the like kind of like a mother's
16:23
Speaker 7: ring or something that was multicolored like ruby, emerald, diamond.
16:28
Speaker 7: And it was in a cluster on a round circle.
16:33
Speaker 1: And uh, you mentioned the red bra, the necklace and
16:38
Speaker 1: the driver's license. Did you ever find your driver's license?
16:41
Speaker 7: Never?
16:42
Speaker 1: You know, it's very well known, Cheryl McCollum that driver's
16:47
Speaker 1: licenses and jewelry and lingerie are prime souvenirs. Taken by
16:55
Speaker 1: serial killers, and we know BTK took all of these
17:00
Speaker 1: things from his victims.
17:02
Speaker 5: Well, Jenna, you know we never left her purse without
17:06
Speaker 5: some place where anyone could have access to it. So
17:09
Speaker 5: what that argues is that she's correct, someone was in
17:13
Speaker 5: the house and may even have been in the house
17:15
Speaker 5: when she was there asleep, and the pocket book fully unattended.
17:18
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. We also know, speaking of the souvenirs, that
17:23
Speaker 1: he would toy with his victims, he would stalk them
17:26
Speaker 1: for a long time, call them, tamper with their phones.
17:31
Speaker 1: Everything that Gina is saying, and I have no reason
17:35
Speaker 1: to doubt her because her story is very rich in detail.
17:39
Speaker 6: It's very rich in detail. And like I said, I've
17:41
Speaker 6: had a chance to read her emails, to talk to
17:44
Speaker 6: her twice. Now hear her again today. Her story has
17:47
Speaker 6: never changed. And one thing about Dennis Rader, I'd like
17:52
Speaker 6: to always point out, he gave himself a nickname in anything,
17:58
Speaker 6: but he picked BTK for bind, torture, kill. Those are
18:04
Speaker 6: action words, that's the order and what he did to
18:08
Speaker 6: his victims.
18:09
Speaker 1: It's a confession, okay, So what does that have to
18:12
Speaker 1: do with what I just asked you about taking the
18:16
Speaker 1: souvenirs and how her story fits exactly in with other
18:21
Speaker 1: cases that he's already confessed to.
18:23
Speaker 6: Because if you listen to the confessions, he tells you
18:27
Speaker 6: exactly what he did, what he took, what he kept.
18:30
Speaker 6: That's all public, that's all we know about the watch.
18:33
Speaker 1: So when he.
18:33
Speaker 6: Tells you what he's about, and then missus Rodriguez comes
18:37
Speaker 6: on and says, this is what he told me, this
18:40
Speaker 6: is the order that he wanted me to do something,
18:42
Speaker 6: it finds he's telling her, I've got a bag and
18:46
Speaker 6: if nobody can see it, nobody can hear it. We
18:49
Speaker 6: need to be alone. I've got tools in here that
18:51
Speaker 6: I'm going to use on you that goes right to
18:54
Speaker 6: bind and torture. He distly saved her life.
18:58
Speaker 3: Listen, I had a brief case whatever I have laid
19:02
Speaker 3: around ropes, tape forwards, and threw that in their mind.
19:05
Speaker 2: You know whatever you know that I had that I
19:07
Speaker 2: brought in the house.
19:08
Speaker 9: That you brought that to the bride roses.
19:11
Speaker 2: Also, now there are some there.
19:15
Speaker 3: I think it was the basic stuff that I don't
19:16
Speaker 3: remember bringing total stuff like I did to some.
19:18
Speaker 2: Of the others. Was this a skit that you had prepared, Yeah,
19:23
Speaker 2: I can, Yes, I called him my good kid.
19:27
Speaker 1: Another interesting point, and I want to circle back to
19:30
Speaker 1: him musing about should his moniker be the poetic Strangler
19:34
Speaker 1: because he wrote and recited a poem to Gina on
19:41
Speaker 1: her last known conversation with him over the phone, where
19:46
Speaker 1: he mentioned something about roses or red panties or pink
19:50
Speaker 1: missing third line and without you, I'll be blue something
19:55
Speaker 1: to that effect. Is that normal from b t K?
20:01
Speaker 1: Sheriff Verdon? Is it true that he wanted to be
20:04
Speaker 1: called considered being called the poetic Strangler?
20:07
Speaker 4: He came up with many different options for yourself and
20:11
Speaker 4: then settled on on BTK. Again, we know his relations
20:17
Speaker 4: with with threes triangles. Uh, you know BTK is a three,
20:22
Speaker 4: and that's that's the one he chose, and we believe
20:26
Speaker 4: it's it's because of this fascination with the eternal triangle
20:30
Speaker 4: and kind of the the whole basis of how he
20:35
Speaker 4: lived his life. You know, to this day, when when
20:39
Speaker 4: three comes up, he gets excited. So I think he
20:42
Speaker 4: settled with BTK simply because of the threes. But he
20:48
Speaker 4: considered many things, trying to trying to figure out what
20:51
Speaker 4: would best suit him.
20:52
Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Down to Joni Johnson
20:54
Speaker 1: that he wished to be known as the quote poetic strangler.
20:58
Speaker 1: That's quite the dichota.
21:00
Speaker 8: Me, it really is. I mean I think that just
21:04
Speaker 8: hearing the conversation he had with law enforcement or this
21:08
Speaker 8: idea of what am I going to call myself? I
21:10
Speaker 8: think it just speaks to an incredible amount of narcissism,
21:14
Speaker 8: you know, in terms of just and also you know,
21:17
Speaker 8: unfortunately the level of enjoyment. I think he's experiencing around this,
21:21
Speaker 8: and I think this really did consume his life, even
21:24
Speaker 8: though he led his life in somewhat of a dichotomy.
21:27
Speaker 8: I think he really was thinking about this all the time.
21:30
Speaker 1: To DL Carson, the dichotomy of wanting to be known
21:33
Speaker 1: as the poetic strangler. This guy's a brutal killer. He'll
21:36
Speaker 1: wipe out a whole family and then dress himself up
21:40
Speaker 1: in their clothes and bind himself with the ropes. I
21:44
Speaker 1: don't know how he did it. One he was practically
21:46
Speaker 1: hanging upside down and then took polary photos of himself.
21:50
Speaker 1: I mean, why would he want to be known as
21:53
Speaker 1: anything connected to poetry?
21:55
Speaker 5: Well, in many cases that I've handled, dealing with sex
21:59
Speaker 5: offenders reflects that they have a fairly broad range of
22:03
Speaker 5: interests and they're willing to try most anything. They're very
22:07
Speaker 5: curious people from my perspective, and it's fascinating that when
22:13
Speaker 5: they engage in this activity they want to memorialize it,
22:16
Speaker 5: and hence the use of photographs so that they can
22:19
Speaker 5: look at themselves looking at themselves. I've actually seen photographs
22:23
Speaker 5: of individuals looking at themselves three times in the same
22:28
Speaker 5: different photograph with mirrors. So there's a lot of pleasure
22:32
Speaker 5: derived from that, revisiting the pleasure that they receive from
22:37
Speaker 5: their behavior, even if it's just to themselves. So his
22:41
Speaker 5: behavior doesn't surprise me at all.
22:44
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Danni's rater speaking with no emotion,
22:51
Speaker 1: speaking in open court under oath.
22:53
Speaker 9: Took some photographs or a kind of cameras to use fullard.
22:58
Speaker 9: Did you keep those photographs? Yes?
23:01
Speaker 2: The police probably go.
23:03
Speaker 9: All right, what happened?
23:04
Speaker 10: Then?
23:05
Speaker 4: That was it?
23:06
Speaker 3: That went took she went through, I tied it. She
23:10
Speaker 3: was already dead, so I took good pictures of her
23:12
Speaker 3: in different forms of bondage. And that's probably one got
23:17
Speaker 3: me in trouble with the bonders and things.
23:18
Speaker 1: You know sure, Iff Eddie Vernon joining us, the elected
23:22
Speaker 1: sheriff in this jurisdiction who has now assembled a national
23:26
Speaker 1: BTK Task Force, Sheriff Verdon. He told Gina he had
23:33
Speaker 1: taken the bus. I find that significant because that changes
23:39
Speaker 1: his hunting ground. The fact that he could have been
23:43
Speaker 1: using a bus as transport, in my mind, changes a lot.
23:48
Speaker 1: He's not just working in his little neighborhood as many
23:52
Speaker 1: people thought that he was.
23:53
Speaker 4: Oh, we know that's for a fact. We know that
23:56
Speaker 4: he took a cab ride. You know, he left the
24:00
Speaker 4: boy scout camp on at least two murders, using that
24:04
Speaker 4: for an alibi or cover in one of those. And
24:08
Speaker 4: again we know he did that because in almost every case,
24:13
Speaker 4: he took the victim's vehicle. So, you know, taking the
24:17
Speaker 4: bus there at that location would keep his vehicle or
24:21
Speaker 4: keep his you know, possibility being caught in that area.
24:25
Speaker 4: And I'm sure his plan with match just what we've
24:28
Speaker 4: seen in all the other ones where he planned on
24:31
Speaker 4: using her vehicle to carry out the rest of what
24:36
Speaker 4: he plotted to do.
24:37
Speaker 5: Well, clearly that's exactly what he would say to her
24:41
Speaker 5: when they got ready to leave. I took a bus.
24:44
Speaker 9: Can we use your car.
24:46
Speaker 5: I mean, it's pretty incredibly structured his conversation with Jenna.
24:51
Speaker 5: And one thing I did want to mention is that
24:53
Speaker 5: the use of orphanage in order to elicit symptomzy from
24:57
Speaker 5: a potential victim seems rather obvious.
25:01
Speaker 1: Shere verdon have you ever considered that when he was
25:04
Speaker 1: stationed in not one but two locations in Japan, he
25:08
Speaker 1: may have committed murders there?
25:10
Speaker 4: Absolutely. In fact, we've talked about that he makes notation
25:15
Speaker 4: of taking a thirty two caliber smuggling it overseas with him,
25:21
Speaker 4: and that at the time that he left to come
25:25
Speaker 4: back to the States, he destroyed the gun to the
25:29
Speaker 4: best of his ability and dropped that gun down an
25:32
Speaker 4: AIRBN into military base. And we've got notations of him
25:37
Speaker 4: prowling Japan bar girls, and one has an X behind it,
25:44
Speaker 4: and we all know what X means when he does it.
25:48
Speaker 4: That's factor X and normally, in fact, I don't think
25:52
Speaker 4: I've ever found an X in anything that he had
25:56
Speaker 4: written that does not relate back to an actual murder.
26:01
Speaker 4: So you know, my belief is is something happened overseas
26:07
Speaker 4: And when you have bar girl with an axe and Dennis,
26:14
Speaker 4: who is is very approval with money. Destroying a gun
26:19
Speaker 4: when he could have sold it. I'm quite certain to
26:23
Speaker 4: any other military member, to probably any any thug on
26:28
Speaker 4: the street over there, why would he destroy that gup
26:33
Speaker 4: unless it had been connected to a crime.
26:35
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what Genis said about what he was
26:38
Speaker 1: wearing those khaki pants, because I believe doctor Joni Johnston
26:43
Speaker 1: that he had. Of course, you're the shrink. I'm just
26:48
Speaker 1: a trial lawyer. Some sort of a fixation with uniforms.
26:54
Speaker 1: He had an ADT uniform, he had an Air Force uniform,
27:00
Speaker 1: he had a dogcatcher's uniform, he had a Boy Scout
27:03
Speaker 1: leader uniform. I mean it goes on. I mean, I've
27:07
Speaker 1: got a whole list of uniforms that I believe that
27:10
Speaker 1: he wore. And there he is with Gina Rodriguez in
27:15
Speaker 1: his khaki pants that very likely went with a uniform. What,
27:20
Speaker 1: if anything, does that mean to you?
27:22
Speaker 8: Well, when we think about you know, many sexually motivated
27:25
Speaker 8: serial killers being a pretty obsessed with nomination in control,
27:29
Speaker 8: particularly Dennis Rader, who's we've talked about monitors BTK. You know,
27:34
Speaker 8: uniforms are symbol of authority, and it would make complete
27:37
Speaker 8: sense to me that he will uniforms because that gives
27:40
Speaker 8: him this persona of authority that he can then portray
27:43
Speaker 8: to the world, because he thinks of himself in that
27:45
Speaker 8: way anyway.
27:45
Speaker 1: Last, I want to speak to you about his desire
27:49
Speaker 1: for notoriety. Take a listen to our cut one from
27:54
Speaker 1: crime Online.
27:55
Speaker 10: On the outside, Dennis Raider was a cub Scout leader
27:58
Speaker 10: and the president of his church, count Christ Lutheran Church
28:01
Speaker 10: in Wichita, Kansas. In reality, he was Dennis Raider, the
28:04
Speaker 10: man who named himself BTK that stood for Buying Torture Kill.
28:09
Speaker 10: BTK gained national attention during his murder spree that began
28:11
Speaker 10: in nineteen seventy four with the killing of the Otero
28:14
Speaker 10: family and seemingly ended in nineteen ninety one when he
28:16
Speaker 10: murdered sixty two year old de Davis by strangling her
28:19
Speaker 10: with pantyhose. The BTK case was cold in March of
28:22
Speaker 10: two thousand and four, when he started communicating with local media.
28:26
Speaker 10: Raider ended up sending a disc to KSASTV containing traceable
28:29
Speaker 10: metadata that led investigators to his church and eventually to
28:33
Speaker 10: his jeep and his house. Pleading not guilty at first,
28:36
Speaker 10: he changed his pleading guilty and confessed to ten murders.
28:38
Speaker 10: He was sentenced to ten life sentences at maximum security
28:41
Speaker 10: prison in Kansas, But now there's new evidence connecting him
28:44
Speaker 10: to additional murders, as well as an odd connection to
28:47
Speaker 10: Brian Coberger, the suspect in the Idaho college murders.
28:51
Speaker 1: You know, his desire for notoriety, Cheryl McCollum is overwhelming.
28:56
Speaker 1: The bizarre puzzles and contacts he would have media, even
29:01
Speaker 1: asking them to give him a moniker, I mean just bizarre.
29:07
Speaker 6: Well, in nineteen seventy seven, he wrote a letter and
29:10
Speaker 6: basically told the TV station, how many people do I
29:13
Speaker 6: have to kill before I get national attention?
29:16
Speaker 1: You know, I'm also curious about his use of uniforms,
29:21
Speaker 1: how I could use that fascination he had to connect
29:26
Speaker 1: him to other crimes. I'm curious about the equipment that
29:30
Speaker 1: he had in that bag, as is Sheriff Verdon. So
29:35
Speaker 1: many of the aspects of what she is saying that
29:39
Speaker 1: happened to her tie back to BTK tampering with her
29:44
Speaker 1: phone line. The bizarre phone calls someone trying to get
29:48
Speaker 1: in the home when he knows a woman is there
29:51
Speaker 1: with children, just as he did with the A Taro family.
29:55
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dennis Raider.
29:59
Speaker 3: I thought, and the two kids, the two younger kids
30:03
Speaker 3: were in the house. I didn't realize mister Karrell was
30:05
Speaker 3: going to be there.
30:06
Speaker 9: All right, How did you get into the house?
30:09
Speaker 3: And I came to the back door, kept the phone lines,
30:12
Speaker 3: waited the fact door had reservations about even going or
30:16
Speaker 3: just walking away, but pre seeing the door open, and
30:18
Speaker 3: I was in, all right.
30:20
Speaker 9: So the door opened. Was it open for you?
30:24
Speaker 3: I think one of the kids. I think the ju
30:28
Speaker 3: or junior. Yes, the young girl, Joseph's opened the door.
30:34
Speaker 3: He's probably let the dog out, as a dog is
30:37
Speaker 3: in the house at that time.
30:38
Speaker 1: So many of the aspects of what Gina is saying
30:43
Speaker 1: that happened to her missing her driver's license that she
30:47
Speaker 1: always kept in her purse. I mean, I can tell
30:49
Speaker 1: you where my license is right now, Losing an expensive
30:54
Speaker 1: bejeweled necklace, I don't know where, having laingerie take this
31:00
Speaker 1: is exactly what bt K would be doing as he
31:05
Speaker 1: led up to I'm murder Cheryl.
31:07
Speaker 6: Well, Nancy. I want to make a correlation between the
31:10
Speaker 6: uniforms and having basically the equipment to do what he
31:13
Speaker 6: wanted to do. If he's in his ADT uniform, then
31:17
Speaker 6: he can fool with a foone line and nobody's going
31:20
Speaker 6: to question him. He's going to say he got called
31:23
Speaker 6: out there. The van fits, the uniform fits, nobody's gonna
31:26
Speaker 6: question it. If he's doing his code enforcement job, he
31:29
Speaker 6: could have a shovel or a dead animal that he's
31:32
Speaker 6: just killed, or all these things. It's immediately explained. If
31:37
Speaker 6: he's in the boy Scout uniform, he could have a shovel,
31:39
Speaker 6: a knife, a tarp, easily explained just based on the uniform.
31:44
Speaker 6: There's no follow up place to need it.
32:00
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, I did Gina Ronriguez, who actually
32:05
Speaker 1: hooked up met up with BTK buying torture killed Dennis
32:09
Speaker 1: Raider in Wichita. She remembers the date distinctly because it
32:15
Speaker 1: would be her first Valentine's since she and her husband
32:18
Speaker 1: had split up. She felt instinctively she had to get away. Now,
32:24
Speaker 1: this was in a restaurant inside of them all. Do
32:28
Speaker 1: you remember the restaurant, Gina, No, it was just.
32:31
Speaker 7: A small restaurant and they served things like coffee and
32:36
Speaker 7: frozen yogurt, and my classify it as an ice cream restaurant.
32:43
Speaker 1: It was very casual, so you had the instinct to
32:47
Speaker 1: get up and leave. Yeah, And there's no doubt in
32:51
Speaker 1: my mind. Not only did he mention he hates Wichita politics,
32:55
Speaker 1: he also says, Hey, I have a friend that works
32:57
Speaker 1: sever at Hellsburg's and them all there in Wichita. I mean,
33:03
Speaker 1: long story short, he's not from California. This guy's lying
33:06
Speaker 1: to you clearly described for me that instinct that you
33:11
Speaker 1: felt when you knew you had to get away from
33:13
Speaker 1: this guy, and you actually feared he would follow you
33:16
Speaker 1: to your car, and he did. He cried.
33:19
Speaker 7: I just put my hand up, like stop right there.
33:22
Speaker 7: I'm going to be late for work. And he just
33:27
Speaker 7: said like, okay, well, I'm going to go back in
33:30
Speaker 7: them all now to see my friend, but I'll call
33:32
Speaker 7: you on Thursday.
33:33
Speaker 1: When you look back on those two meetings and all
33:38
Speaker 1: of the other strange incidents that occurred to you after
33:42
Speaker 1: mating Bob White, what goes through your mind that I.
33:47
Speaker 7: Was extremely fortunate that I didn't become one of those victims,
33:55
Speaker 7: and that I had made a grave mistake by giving
34:00
Speaker 7: someone my phone number and then agreeing to meet them.
34:04
Speaker 7: And I regret that I didn't call the police. I
34:08
Speaker 7: thought about it after a few days after the last
34:12
Speaker 7: phone call where he cited the poems to me. But
34:15
Speaker 7: I really thought they would laugh at me because what
34:18
Speaker 7: had he really done to me? But be weird, weird
34:23
Speaker 7: enough that I would not want to see him or
34:25
Speaker 7: even take that chance of seeing him again. And today
34:28
Speaker 7: I am the extreme opposite. Back then, I was a
34:32
Speaker 7: young twenty seven year old that had married right out
34:35
Speaker 7: of high school. I went to nurses training. I was
34:38
Speaker 7: extremely sheltered. I didn't even know what he was referring to. Today,
34:43
Speaker 7: I'm very smart in street wise, and I lived my
34:47
Speaker 7: life just the opposite. Every window in my house is locked.
34:52
Speaker 7: I had those sticks in all the windows. We have
34:58
Speaker 7: security around here, security like every door is locked.
35:03
Speaker 1: What is your message to other women right now that
35:10
Speaker 1: may have met or encountered Dennis Writer.
35:14
Speaker 7: I would encourage them to come forward to report it,
35:19
Speaker 7: that this is a very serious matter, and that they
35:26
Speaker 7: can help others, maybe discover other victims or would be victims.
35:34
Speaker 7: That I believe. I honestly believe that he did things
35:41
Speaker 7: before nineteen seventy four, and I think he did things
35:45
Speaker 7: after nineteen ninety ninety. For one thing, that Otaro's they
35:51
Speaker 7: had black belts. Now here he had a gun, but
35:56
Speaker 7: you know they had black belts. They were well trained.
36:03
Speaker 7: And you know, I'm thinking he killed between the years
36:08
Speaker 7: where Kansas had no death penalty. I find that out.
36:12
Speaker 7: I think there was victims before. I think there were
36:16
Speaker 7: victims after. But if he were to confess to those,
36:20
Speaker 7: it might make him eligible.
36:22
Speaker 1: Exactly. I've often wondered, Sheriff Verden, why didn't this guy
36:27
Speaker 1: get the death penalty?
36:28
Speaker 4: Well, again, he kept the only confessions to the ten
36:32
Speaker 4: during the non death family time in Kansas. And you know,
36:37
Speaker 4: we know that after thirty hours of cooperation, he lawyered
36:45
Speaker 4: up and he never talked again. I mean, Nancy, you
36:48
Speaker 4: know why anyone quits talking. If he confessed to all
36:52
Speaker 4: the crimes that he had done, and the way he
36:55
Speaker 4: likes to talk, why would he stop talking and cooperating
36:59
Speaker 4: with the police. Why would he quit telling his story?
37:02
Speaker 4: You know? Another another thing is we were told that
37:05
Speaker 4: he had applied for law enforcement and had gotten turned down,
37:09
Speaker 4: but he had he had tried to get into law enforcement.
37:12
Speaker 4: We know he studied, or we were told he was
37:14
Speaker 4: studied criminal law there while he was attending college in Wichita.
37:20
Speaker 4: So you know, one thing that we know for sure
37:24
Speaker 4: is he wanted to terrorize Wichita, just like she reported
37:28
Speaker 4: that that he was mad at politics in Wichita. He
37:31
Speaker 4: didn't hide any of the victims in Wichita. In fact,
37:35
Speaker 4: he called and told the police where where to find him.
37:39
Speaker 4: He was tormenting the police, which you know to me
37:41
Speaker 4: as an indicator he was mad at the police. And
37:45
Speaker 4: you know, if he had tried to get on and
37:48
Speaker 4: wasn't hired, this would be a way that he could
37:51
Speaker 4: he could get even with the police by doing all
37:54
Speaker 4: these crimes and giving them all the tips and the
37:56
Speaker 4: clues and they couldn't even figure out how to catch him.
37:59
Speaker 4: You know that that had to be in his mind.
38:02
Speaker 4: You know, that's why we know that. You know, with
38:06
Speaker 4: the royds of burying itself, he didn't want law enforcement
38:10
Speaker 4: knowing he was working outside of Wichita, but he wanted
38:13
Speaker 4: to terrorize them. So all of his victims in Wichita,
38:17
Speaker 4: he either turned him in or put them in a
38:19
Speaker 4: location where they would definitely be found and where it
38:22
Speaker 4: would terrorize, just like she described his anger with politics
38:27
Speaker 4: in Wichita.
38:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just gonna come to you, Cheryl, because
38:32
Speaker 1: this is how you create a case. Dennis raider has
38:38
Speaker 1: escaped the death penalty. He's killed at least ten people.
38:45
Speaker 1: In fact, I just want you to hear Cheryl, and
38:49
Speaker 1: I'll circle back. I just want you to hear what
38:52
Speaker 1: he said about murdering the Otero family. And these are
38:58
Speaker 1: just a few his victims.
39:00
Speaker 9: Listen, did he in fact suffocate and dies or on?
39:05
Speaker 2: Not right away? No, sir, he didn't. What happened well
39:10
Speaker 2: after that? I did miss this onto.
39:13
Speaker 3: I had never strangled anyone before, so I really don't
39:17
Speaker 3: know how much pressure you had to put on a
39:18
Speaker 3: person or how long it would take.
39:20
Speaker 9: But was she also tied up there?
39:23
Speaker 2: And yes, both her hands and their feet were tied up.
39:25
Speaker 2: She was on the bed.
39:26
Speaker 3: Where were the children, Well, Josephine was on the bed
39:31
Speaker 3: and Junior was on the floor this time.
39:35
Speaker 9: So we're talking first of all about Joseph Otero. So
39:39
Speaker 9: you'd put the bag over his head and tied it
39:42
Speaker 9: and he did not die right away? Can you tell
39:45
Speaker 9: me what happened in regards to Joseph?
39:46
Speaker 3: And he moved over real quickly, and I think tore
39:48
Speaker 3: a hole in the bag, and I could tell that
39:50
Speaker 3: he was having some problems there that at that time
39:53
Speaker 3: the whole family just went. They went panicked on me.
39:56
Speaker 3: So I worked pretty quick. I wouldn't you worked pretty quick?
40:02
Speaker 7: Well?
40:02
Speaker 3: I mean I I strangled missus o'taro and she went
40:06
Speaker 3: out or passed out.
40:08
Speaker 2: I thought she was dead. She passed out.
40:10
Speaker 3: Then I strangled uh Josephine.
40:13
Speaker 2: She passed out or I thought she was dead and uh,
40:17
Speaker 2: and then I went over and put it and then
40:20
Speaker 2: put a bag on.
40:22
Speaker 1: Juniors said, there are other instances where he just learned that.
40:26
Speaker 1: The victims started vomiting out of fear, and I.
40:30
Speaker 3: Proceeded to tie her up. She got sick, threw up,
40:36
Speaker 3: got our glass of water, covered her a little bit,
40:39
Speaker 3: and then went had and tied her up, and then
40:41
Speaker 3: put a bag bag overhead and strangled her.
40:44
Speaker 9: All right, it was this a plastic bag?
40:46
Speaker 3: Also, Yes, sir, I think it was, but I could
40:49
Speaker 3: be wrong in that it was something. I'm sure it
40:52
Speaker 3: was plastic bag.
40:53
Speaker 9: Yeah, you say you put a bag overhead and strangled her.
40:56
Speaker 9: What did you strangle her with?
40:58
Speaker 2: I actually had think on that.
40:59
Speaker 3: I had tied tight her legs to the bedpost and
41:02
Speaker 3: worked up with the rope all the way up, and
41:04
Speaker 3: then what I had left over, I looked.
41:06
Speaker 9: Over her name, So you used this rope to.
41:09
Speaker 2: Strangle Yes, I would think of the same one that I.
41:11
Speaker 1: Tied her body with and putting children in a bathroom
41:15
Speaker 1: with toys and blankets to calm them down as he
41:18
Speaker 1: killed the mother, and I proceeded.
41:20
Speaker 3: To tie the kids up, and they started crying and
41:22
Speaker 3: got real upset. So I said, oh, this is not
41:25
Speaker 3: going to work, so we moved them to the bathroom.
41:27
Speaker 3: She helped me, and then I tied the door shut.
41:30
Speaker 3: We put some toys and blankets and odds and ins
41:33
Speaker 3: and there for the kids, making the most comfortables that could.
41:36
Speaker 3: Tied the we tied one of the bathroom door shuts
41:39
Speaker 3: so they couldn't open it, and then we shoved She
41:41
Speaker 3: went back and helped me shove the bed up against
41:43
Speaker 3: the other bathroom door.
41:45
Speaker 1: That's who we're talking about, and so far he has
41:49
Speaker 1: escaped the death penalty. One more case ryl one more
41:58
Speaker 1: murder that we can to him may make the difference.
42:03
Speaker 6: And that is why this show today is so critical
42:06
Speaker 6: to ask other witnesses to come forward, because if you
42:10
Speaker 6: listen to that, the way he speaks just so matter
42:12
Speaker 6: of fact, void of emotion. We know those similar things
42:16
Speaker 6: from Delphi.
42:17
Speaker 8: When we can hear him say down the hill.
42:20
Speaker 6: He's not angry, he's not enraged, he's not out of
42:23
Speaker 6: his mind. It's just almost autopilot. This is what we're doing.
42:27
Speaker 6: And when you hear that he tried to become a
42:29
Speaker 6: police officer, you know, just like the Golden State Killer
42:33
Speaker 6: and other people, Ky Berger, Coburger, because what do you do.
42:36
Speaker 6: As soon as you arrest somebody, you bind them, You
42:39
Speaker 6: put him in handcuffs. You have a way to again
42:42
Speaker 6: stalk people in uniform.
42:44
Speaker 1: You know what's very freaky, Cheryl. If you look at
42:48
Speaker 1: his sketches of young women, some of them look like
42:53
Speaker 1: they may be even pre pubescent. They are bound, they
42:59
Speaker 1: have gags or scarfs over their mouths, and the look
43:04
Speaker 1: of fear in their eyes that he draws. He's drawing
43:11
Speaker 1: victims that were like these victims he talks about vomiting.
43:16
Speaker 1: They're so afraid they know they're going to die, and
43:19
Speaker 1: he captures that in his sketches. There are other victims.
43:25
Speaker 1: And what's amazing to me, Sheriff I recently spoke who
43:29
Speaker 1: will remain nameless with a journalist who is in regular
43:34
Speaker 1: contact with BTK, and she has swallowed his bull hook
43:38
Speaker 1: line and sinker. When I asked you, well, obviously he's
43:42
Speaker 1: connected to Marrow, she says, oh, no, no, no, just
43:44
Speaker 1: the ten. And I said why and she says, well,
43:47
Speaker 1: because that's what he told me. People believe him. You
43:51
Speaker 1: believe him, Sherifford, and you believe that's all he killed.
43:56
Speaker 4: You know, I have got him lying so many times.
44:01
Speaker 4: You know, you don't even have to look any further
44:03
Speaker 4: than you know some of the communication they did with
44:06
Speaker 4: Wichita where he plays out kind of what she said
44:11
Speaker 4: in his story he sent to them his father was
44:15
Speaker 4: killed in war, and he goes through basically what you
44:20
Speaker 4: would be looking for, what the profile, what he should
44:23
Speaker 4: have been versus what he was. So you know, again
44:28
Speaker 4: believe in what he says is impossible. He is, you know,
44:34
Speaker 4: he is correcting a lot of things, and he's misleading
44:37
Speaker 4: in a lot of ways.
44:38
Speaker 1: Well to all defendits, do that, don't you think, Sheriff
44:40
Speaker 1: heard they weave in a little of the truth and
44:42
Speaker 1: their story, probably so they can keep their story straightening
44:45
Speaker 1: the rest of his total bs. Sheriff Eddie Vernon joining
44:48
Speaker 1: us with Cheryl McCollum, doctor Jonie Johnson, Deal Carson and
44:52
Speaker 1: our special guest Gina Rodriguez, who narrowly escaped the hands
44:58
Speaker 1: of BTK buying torture ca old Ennis Rader Sheriff Verdin.
45:02
Speaker 1: What do you believe is the best tip line for
45:05
Speaker 1: people to call in if they believe they have encountered BTK.
45:09
Speaker 4: Again, They can go to the Osage County Sheriff website
45:14
Speaker 4: and leave us a message on That would be the
45:18
Speaker 4: best because that way we can keep track of them
45:21
Speaker 4: and return those calls and follow up on those leads.
45:26
Speaker 4: There's also a line. I'll let Cheryl give that information
45:32
Speaker 4: through the task Force.
45:33
Speaker 6: National Cold Case task Force at gmail dot com.
45:37
Speaker 4: Just make sure you get us that information.
45:39
Speaker 1: How many victims are out there that we don't know
45:43
Speaker 1: about yet? Victims at the hands of the dogcatch a
45:47
Speaker 1: turnkiller Dennis Raider. We wait as justice unfolds about right now,
45:54
Speaker 1: he's having his morning coffee, probably reading the paper on
45:57
Speaker 1: the internet. I hope you listen to this. Goodbye friend,
46:07
Speaker 1: m