Latest / psychophobia* podcast / Episode 04: Alcohol and Agency - The Question of Informed Choice

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Episode 04: Alcohol and Agency - The Question of Informed Choice · psychophobia* podcast

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Psychophobia podcast.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dr.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Michael Montgomery and I am very,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: very excited to be talking to the illustrious Gary Allen.
• 0:50
  I'm not going to reveal too much about you as we start because
• 0:54
  the format is very simple.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I like to dive in and then maybe 15 minutes in,
• 1:01
  I'll get to who you are and why we should be talking to you in
• 1:05
  the first place.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: How are you feeling?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to see you.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm really looking forward.
• 1:13
  I'm excited actually about this conversation because as you
• 1:16
  said,
• 1:16
  you're not revealing much.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious as well as of where we're going to go.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there are different reasons for doing the podcast,
• 1:29
  none least of which to try and get this message out to do with
• 1:34
  psychophobia.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 1:36
  I have had many experiences with people where I'm in a dialogue
• 1:41
  and I just go,
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: oh God,
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to record that because something special seems to be happening.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Without getting into your bio,
• 1:50
  what I would say is you're probably in the top 10 people that I
• 1:54
  respect most in the
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: world.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just you as an individual,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: who you are,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: but also the incredible work that you do and what you've taught me,
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: particularly in two areas.
• 2:06
  One in the area of alcohol,
• 2:09
  not how to drink it,
• 2:09
  but how to change one's relationship to it.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing is groups.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:17
  people who have seen me do groups may not know that you had a
• 2:21
  huge influence on how
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: to do that.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: in a modern context and also on Zoom.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So perhaps we could get into that.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: But the statistics on alcohol use in the Western world are staggering.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: So in some circles,
• 2:45
  they seem to be coming down with some of the perhaps younger
• 2:48
  generation and some
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: demographics.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: But in others, it's actually going up.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me what your thoughts are on being alcohol free,
• 3:00
  because that's where we initially met in the sort of alcohol
• 3:04
  free community.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: First of all,
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: it's around this time of year,
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: it's a little bit of disbelief in that,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: in exactly a week's time,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: it'll be eight years.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't really believe that every time the date comes around.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Being alcohol-free has changed my life.
• 3:31
  utterly completely and it changed my career um and changed me
• 3:37
  physically and
• 3:39
  mentally emotionally and in every other way really um the I
• 3:48
  think it's probably the
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: The secret that nobody knows in this,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: being alcohol free,
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: even a little bit of it,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: it was impacting me.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing about,
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: the Western world,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: as you talked about there,
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: is that,
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: or maybe even worldwide,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: is that the
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where I started,
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: is that your relationship with alcohol was either black or it's white.
• 4:20
  It's either it was a healthy relationship with alcohol or
• 4:23
  everything was dangerous
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: and damaging,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: life-threatening and catastrophic.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I was neither of those.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so,
• 4:32
  but it didn't sit well with me that my alcohol intake from a
• 4:38
  reasonably early age,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: from...
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe my mid-twenties.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: And because I thought I was,
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: maybe even subconsciously at that stage,
• 4:51
  I was the guy that was speeding up as everybody else was kind
• 4:54
  of steady or slow.
• 4:56
  And I would only ever have gone out a couple of times in the
• 4:59
  weekends with my
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: brothers,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: who I'm very close to.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: But...
• 5:05
  So it was only then in 2017 that I really took hold of it and
• 5:13
  found another way and
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: found all these people,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: you included actually,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: who were kind of in a similar position of kind of
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: in the middle.
• 5:24
  Um,
• 5:26
  and that was within another organization that I joined called
• 5:32
  When You're No Beer.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the, where we met and where
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Their philosophy is of changing your relationship with alcohol.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: and through,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: which I did,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: first started,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: with a 90 day challenge or a 30 day,
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: I can't even remember.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that did a hundred days.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then I went.
• 6:02
  you know,
• 6:03
  I remember my wife telling me,
• 6:05
  saying to me,
• 6:05
  well,
• 6:05
  you might as well do a year now.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I did.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I did.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And kind of, I've never looked back since.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And genuinely, I think there's one, I look at alcohol now kind of,
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: as with a curious mindset,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: when I ask the question,
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: which I do consciously and subconsciously,
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: do I want to drink today?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if the answer is maybe,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: which very rarely is,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: then I actually go,
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: I ask myself,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: what's the point?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: what am I trying to,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with a curious mindset of actually,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: what am I trying to gain here?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it's a transaction.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, for the last eight years,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: the gain isn't even close to big enough for what it's going to cost me.
• 6:57
  Because one of the reasons that there is such an issue with
• 7:01
  alcohol in the world is
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: that it works.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: It does what it says in the tin.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: It will do what you want it to do,
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: but except the consequences then become,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: to my mind,
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: infinitely greater when it gets to a place that's unhealthy.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the decision I make every day,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: subconsciously now these days,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: because it's kind of automatic.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: But you're never going to hear me say I'm never drinking again.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about the conversation for me.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So how hard was that transition from,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: which many people are doing,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: you mentioned January,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: they're doing a dry January.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: How much of a transition was it for you from a month to a year?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because that for many people sounds like a leap.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, and it is a leap if you do it in that way.
• 8:01
  But one of the methodologies or one of the phrases that is used
• 8:08
  in other ways of
• 8:10
  stopping drinking or changing your relationship with alcohol is
• 8:12
  one day at a time.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm a real fan of that attitude.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: But it has to have the right energy around it.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what I mean by that is...
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: You can look at one day at a time,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: and it is looked at in some other,
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: areas of,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not capable of thinking more,
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing more than one day,
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: so let me just do today.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see it like that.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely believe that,
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm capable of doing two days and three days,
• 8:41
  and everyone else I speak to is capable of doing two days and
• 8:43
  three days and four
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: days,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: et cetera.
• 8:46
  um but we only have today to you know to state the obvious
• 8:51
  we're never going to
• 8:52
  have tomorrow and we're never going to have yesterday so uh so
• 8:56
  just doing it one
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: day at a time and knowing and accepting that
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Choose your heart because it's going to be difficult.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to have cravings in the early days.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: But when you employ the whole idea of habit,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: a consistent behavior that yields a consistent result,
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: which is my definition of a habit.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, it was that.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: if we want to use the A word of addiction,
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: it wasn't,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: if I kept going,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: maybe we would have gone to those places.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was something that I did,
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: and I just became a bit more habitual than I would have liked it to be.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 9:42
  If I changed my habits and went through the hard cravings and
• 9:47
  using things like
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: meditation,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: using things like journaling,
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: using things like,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: exercise or whatever,
• 9:53
  using kind of other stuff and just or maybe even just sitting
• 9:58
  with the pain or
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: sitting with the discomfort,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: then I found that an incredibly empowering thing.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And when you got that done on a Monday, then what do you need to do?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: You need to do it again on a Tuesday and again on a Wednesday.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then,
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:13
  you're seven days down the road and then maybe you're 10 days
• 10:16
  down the road.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: And also,
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:19
  what happens at that point is that when you get a good chunk of
• 10:22
  time under your
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: bed,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: that becomes a tool because that becomes,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not giving that away.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not giving those last 50 days away.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that became a real motivator to me because my past is in IT.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I've kind of got a more logical brain and numbers appeal to me.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I wasn't about to give that chunk of time away,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: which got me down the road of getting to 100 days and go,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to give this up.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to go back there.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now, does it mean that all the rest of it is going to be easy?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, it doesn't.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because nobody's promising easy.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just the gain.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: It is really, to use the cliche, it is the gift that keeps on giving.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you covered so much.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: So the first association I had was when we met, I came up with the glass.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I bought pebbles and
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So every day I decided to not drink,
• 11:27
  I would put a pebble in so you could see those days that you
• 11:30
  talk about fill up.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: There was like a visual reminder and also a ritual.
• 11:35
  But I wanted to go back and put this into context because I
• 11:38
  think it was a real
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: huge story because I felt when we met,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: we were part of a sort of emerging movement.
• 11:45
  And that movement had flipped the whole idea of alcohol on its
• 11:49
  head where it moved
• 11:52
  away from this idea of there was something wrong to actually to
• 11:56
  be something
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: gained,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: not something to be given up,
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: but something to be experienced.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 12:03
  Just to assure myself,
• 12:06
  I decided to stop alcohol altogether on the 1st of January
• 12:11
  2024.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm on my second year.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be the longest I went without drinking since I was 14.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: People might have picked up that I'm from Belfast and you're from Dublin.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we share a culture where it was just part of the fabric.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:29
  You know,
• 12:30
  it was like water,
• 12:31
  births,
• 12:31
  deaths,
• 12:32
  funerals,
• 12:33
  you know,
• 12:34
  workplaces.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was such an acceptable thing.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: But it was also this feeling that this was the norm, right?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And many of the things that we have shared, I've passed on to people.
• 12:48
  And one of the things that people often find liberating is when
• 12:52
  I say to them,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: alcohol use isn't the norm.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Sobriety is the norm.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that's very hard to do in heavy drinking cultures.
• 13:02
  I noticed in America,
• 13:04
  if I go to an event and I say I'm not drinking,
• 13:07
  it's not like a thing.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want a drink?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's it.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I remember in other sort of heavy drinking environments,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: the only drug that you have to make an excuse for not doing.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things that we learned was...
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: building the confidence to be able to say no.
• 13:28
  But in other contexts,
• 13:30
  you don't have to make an excuse because it's not the norm.
• 13:32
  And I think when people have that,
• 13:34
  start to find that self-confidence,
• 13:37
  it's very important.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the other thing that...
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: for me that came out of that movement was really knowledge.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: So much of my relationship with alcohol,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't fully understand because I hadn't been fully informed.
• 13:56
  And I think,
• 13:57
  you know,
• 13:57
  I think you were very diplomatic there without naming the
• 14:01
  12-step groups.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the 12-step groups save lives,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: they have incredible history,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: but it doesn't work for everyone.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a certain paradigm,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: a certain dogma that it's necessary to sign up to,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: that if you don't connect with,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: means it's very difficult.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the movement towards alcohol-free is great.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you try it?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of turns that very much on the head.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: The two are very compatible, but they're quite different.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
• 14:39
  The thing that I would say about that,
• 14:41
  quite simply,
• 14:42
  is alcohol is not my enemy.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's about changing your relationship to alcohol.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: At the moment, I'm ambivalent towards it.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care about it.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I don't care if other people drink.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a thing, obviously.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: For me, the people around me, people around me every day still drink.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: And as you say,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: those other 12-step methods have worked for many,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: many people,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: many,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: many people that I know.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: when we start this,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: and this is,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: I work as a coach now and have done for the last number of years.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: And really when we're changing any behavior,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: any behavior from something that isn't serving us to something that is,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: to something better,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: we're doing it for two sets of,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: one of two sets of reasons.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: And the first set of reasons
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: are always the ones at the beginning.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that are your reasons of desperation.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I call them.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, what you don't want.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that's for your,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: you don't want the hangovers,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: you don't want the family issues,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: the work issues,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: or whatever it might be.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And when that happens,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: When you get away from the behavior that you want to change,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: then,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 16:19
  what you still have is you still have this primitive brain who
• 16:23
  doesn't care,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: doesn't give a crap about consequences,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: doesn't understand consequences,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: just understands survival,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: just understands safety,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: really.
• 16:34
  You're the expert in the room here,
• 16:36
  so jump in if I'm misrepresenting anything.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: But that is where,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: because we've trained it in these behaviors,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: alcohol being one of them,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: but not necessarily the only one,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: or not the only one,
• 16:53
  then these behaviors get locked in as kind of effective ways of
• 16:58
  doing whatever they
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: do,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: numbing or forgetting or relaxing or whatever it is.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we do that and it sees that we've got momentum here,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: the back brain,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: the primitive brain sees that we've got momentum here,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: it'll release...
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: But it still wants to go back.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: It still wants to go back to these old behaviors.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: It will take its opportunity and tell you things like, one won't hurt.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: There was never that bad anyway.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: You've done very well.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: You deserve it.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: You've had a hard day.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: All of those stories come back.
• 17:29
  And that's happened to me dozens and dozens and dozens of times
• 17:33
  before I changed.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: And the change was to move on to the second set of reasons.
• 17:40
  And the second set of reasons are what I call your reasons of
• 17:42
  inspiration.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, what do you want?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember the date,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: but I remember the experience of waking up with a bunch of days in,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: don't know how many it was,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: maybe it was 50 plus days.
• 17:57
  with energy and clarity,
• 17:58
  the like of which I'd never experienced in my adult life.
• 18:02
  And it was a profound experience because I said to myself,
• 18:09
  I'm not giving this away.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the thing is that, you know, let's get real.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: We live in a real busy world.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: We've all got busy lives.
• 18:16
  So my life didn't change profoundly and,
• 18:20
  you know,
• 18:21
  massively positively overnight.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I thought, well, I'm starting with a level playing field here.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was mornings where I was starting below zero.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Plenty of them.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: You could even say most of them.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I was starting those 11 playing fields here and I was saying,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not behind the eight ball when it waking up.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay, that's good.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's good enough for me.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not giving that away.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: So those reasons of inspiration, I just built on those a day at a time.
• 18:54
  And one of the things I always say to people I work with is the
• 18:58
  difference between
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: me eight years in and you beginning this process is zero.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: In capacity.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Zero.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's just a matter of giving yourself an opportunity.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Just give yourself a chance.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Giving ourselves a chance to see that energy and clarity.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: You can have that every day.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Now, will you have it every day?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, because we've got life.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: You might feel physically, mentally under pressure.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, you know,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: that's, that's, that's another thing to deal with.
• 19:37
  But,
• 19:38
  you know,
• 19:39
  I'm not,
• 19:39
  I haven't put myself behind the alcohol eight ball
• 19:44
  So what I've observed clinically is people have a relationship
• 19:51
  with alcohol and
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: often when things get difficult in their life,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: the relationship with alcohol can change.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, for example, you mentioned numbing.
• 20:06
  So things are really bad and I turn to alcohol because I can
• 20:10
  numb out alcohol.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: The major issue with that is it doesn't select,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: it numbs out across the board,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: which means if you decide to stop the numbing,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of emotion comes back,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: not just the very thing that you were trying to numb out,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: but
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the reason the drinking increased is often the cause,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: but what I observe is after a period of time,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: the alcohol becomes the primary problem.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't actually address the underlying things.
• 20:55
  What happens sometimes in 12-step is people go and then they
• 20:59
  focus on alcohol problem.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: They don't look at the underlying problem.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: All evidence shows that to treat these two things concurrently,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: to look at the whys,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: be it trauma,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: be it some sort of habitual thing you've got into,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: to look at them both and to expose them both at the same time is the most
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: effective.
• 21:24
  But what happens in services is people get directed from one
• 21:28
  service to the other.
• 21:30
  We can't look at your mental health because you've got an
• 21:31
  alcohol problem.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: We can't look at your alcohol problem because you've got mental health.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they get past.
• 21:37
  So what I learned very quickly is addressing both at the same
• 21:39
  time is very,
• 21:42
  very helpful.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: But what you allude to is when you stop...
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: drinking or changing alcohol use,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: you're still left with the existential challenges of everyday life.
• 21:55
  But what is very strong evidence is,
• 22:01
  you know,
• 22:02
  alcohol spikes people's depression and anxiety.
• 22:06
  So it's actually what they think is depression is often fueled
• 22:10
  by their alcohol use
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: and their alcohol come down.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: They don't realize that.
• 22:15
  So that's part of the education piece that I thought was very,
• 22:20
  very helpful.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have a different relationship with alcohol.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think alcohol after fentanyl is the worst drug on the planet.
• 22:27
  If alcohol was a guest on the show,
• 22:29
  I'd punch it in the face because of the carnage
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the 12-step puts so much emphasis on the individual.
• 22:41
  What I learned from my experience in the alcohol-free movement
• 22:46
  was actually alcohol
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: has serious properties.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a serious drug.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: All drugs that have a psychoactive component are serious drugs.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And my thing is we do not respect them.
• 23:00
  right so psychiatrists I'm speaking generally can prescribe or
• 23:05
  PCPs prescribe
• 23:09
  medication like it's M&Ms right without the respect so if you
• 23:13
  take an antipsychotic
• 23:15
  or take a benzo you know if you're experiencing acute anxiety
• 23:20
  in the short term a
• 23:21
  benzo can be wonderful to be on it every day for a year that is
• 23:26
  a whole different
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: thing so
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm jumping around a little bit, but, you know, you made a great point.
• 23:32
  The hardest thing talking to people about alcohol is the fact
• 23:35
  that it does do what
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: it says on the tin.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: You come in from work,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: you're stressed out,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: if I had to have that big glass of wine,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: instantly,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: However,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: there is a huge payoff for that glass of wine health-wise,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: blood pressure,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: stress,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: sleep,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 23:59
  What would be wonderful is if you could give people the
• 24:02
  alcohol-free pill to
• 24:05
  experience for a day what it would be like in terms of their
• 24:09
  life and their
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: experience of alcohol-free.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so relatable and understandable.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: If my life is going really, really badly, alcohol becomes a crutch.
• 24:22
  But we become blinded to the fact that that crutches
• 24:25
  potentially that becomes the problem.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: It starts to take.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned you're very humble, which is one of your qualities.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned you're a coach.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're actually one of the top coaches in Ireland, if not the world.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to introduce the question,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:43
  who do you think you are and why should we be listening to
• 24:47
  anything that you've got
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: to say in this area?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Give us a little bit about your, you know, your background.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: As I said, I, um,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: I spent 30 years in IT.
• 25:01
  I was born in the West of Ireland and I still live in the West
• 25:05
  of Ireland.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not from Dublin.
• 25:07
  So someone that is born in the West of Ireland can't actually
• 25:10
  ever let that go from earlier on.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just correct, just to throw that in.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: I live in Galway in the West of Ireland.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I spent 30 years in IT, but I suppose one of the...
• 25:22
  big maybe inconsequential things now but one of the things that
• 25:27
  was tricky about me
• 25:28
  growing up was that I was born with a disability so I don't
• 25:31
  walk and I never have
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: to you know to any great degree which
• 25:39
  I think gave me a really massive advantage in some ways in that
• 25:44
  knowledge and
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: reading and learning became very,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: very important to me very,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: very early on because we were brought up on a farm,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: two brothers,
• 25:54
  and they were farming with dad while I was more or less sitting
• 25:59
  inside reading with
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: my mother.
• 26:01
  And so that became reading and learning became really,
• 26:05
  really important really quickly.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason I say that
• 26:08
  And that's the reason why that's kind of relevant is that I
• 26:11
  became interested in
• 26:14
  what I didn't realize later on was personal development until
• 26:18
  very much later on
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: was personal development for the brain.
• 26:21
  And I think it comes from the fact that things were and are
• 26:23
  limited physically,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: but it works okay.
• 26:26
  So I was kind of,
• 26:29
  I know now,
• 26:29
  subconsciously determined to make the most of that.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: I went into computers and went to be a software engineer,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: but I kind of went to become a software engineer for a few decades.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: But the interest in human potential, the power of the human,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 26:54
  never really left me and it just became stronger and stronger
• 26:57
  and stronger and
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: stronger as did the,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: thoughts,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: two thoughts,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: one that I was kind,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not really sure I'm in the right job.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: And secondly, um, this alcohol thing is kind of getting in my way now.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, um,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: as I said,
• 27:15
  I quit the alcohol in 2018 and pretty much immediately decided
• 27:20
  that I was going to
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: train to be a coach and,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: which I did.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I started working,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: within the,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: the One Year No Beer,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: ecosystem in 2018,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: 2019.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where we met.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: But when I did start coaching,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: when I did start coaching people,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I found,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: I suppose,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: I had a...
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was natural for me.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: It felt easy.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: It felt normal.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it felt like where I should be.
• 27:50
  And I suppose the two things that I will say about myself is
• 27:57
  that I have a natural
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: ability and a strong ability to hold space.
• 28:03
  for people but I also have a very very strong ability to sit
• 28:07
  with pain without
• 28:09
  having to change it without having to kind of advice give or
• 28:13
  trying to fix people
• 28:15
  because you know there is nothing that I am better at than
• 28:22
  believing in people
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: before they can believe in themselves.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, going a long journey with them.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, they will take that belief off me when they're ready.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: They won't even know they're doing it.
• 28:36
  But I will be the person to believe in them before they believe
• 28:38
  in themselves.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really, really powerful.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we share that.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's nearly like a trick, isn't it?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's like...
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: People who don't believe in themselves,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: if you can get them to believe you enough,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: the second they believe in you,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: you can reflect that back to get them to believe in themselves.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: you use the term holding space,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: which I'm not a huge fan of because it's become a bit of a buzzword.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Fair enough.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is what I observed.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the first time I was in a group with you,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: this guy,
• 29:07
  how he holds such a diverse group of vulnerable often or at
• 29:16
  least curious people
• 29:17
  who don't know each other from all around the world and gives
• 29:21
  them time to speak
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: and can hold the whole thing.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was extraordinary to me and I'd never seen anything like it.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'd been trained in the traditional culture
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: sort of group process,
• 29:33
  psychotherapy groups and you were able to hold what I would
• 29:37
  call quite a high
• 29:38
  intensity group in ways that I'd never seen before and it's
• 29:43
  hugely influenced how I
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: work and how I run a group.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: How did you know how to do that or how did that
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Was that just a natural thing or talk to that a little bit?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I knew.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, maybe I don't wish I knew.
• 29:57
  I just,
• 29:58
  and I suppose,
• 30:03
  well,
• 30:03
  I mentioned my disability back there,
• 30:07
  back a little bit.
• 30:08
  And I suppose one of the things that comes with that is you
• 30:15
  have to do things differently.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you had to live a bit differently.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was a pile of times,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: months in hospitals when I was younger and just things that were my life,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: but were,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: difficult for other people.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Other people would see them as just really difficult.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 30:37
  I spent a good chunk of until I was 14 or 15 in hospitals with
• 30:41
  operations and stuff
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: like that.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: So you could, these days you might call it resilience.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what you would call it,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: but,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: ability to,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: get through difficult situations.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what you would call it, but I came out the other end of it.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that gave me, I think it gave me an inherent sense
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: belief in everybody to be able to kind of overcome.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't, as I said, this was my life.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's very much like,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:20
  that old story of two fish swimming in the water and an old
• 31:26
  fish passes them by and
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: says,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: morning guys,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: how's the water?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: And they look at each other and go, what's water?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: This was just my water.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think
• 31:38
  And my interest in humans and my interest in human potential
• 31:42
  and what I could see
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: from everybody that was in that room,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: in those rooms,
• 31:48
  is potential and the potential to get to because remember when
• 31:52
  I started this I was
• 31:53
  a good chunk of time alcohol free and I really mean it when I
• 31:56
  said there's nothing
• 31:57
  special about me absolutely nothing so it was an inherent
• 32:03
  belief that everybody
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: could get to that place and
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if they sat with me,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: whether there was a lot of emotion,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: and you were in those rooms where there was plenty of emotion,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: but for some reason that I can't put my finger on,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: I have no interest in analyzing it.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Emotion doesn't freak me out,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: really strong emotions doesn't really,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: it's natural,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: it's normal.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I had just an ability to see past all of that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: into the potential behind it.
• 32:44
  I think that is what came across without you actually having to
• 32:47
  be explicit about it.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like here's a space where somebody has the confidence,
• 32:54
  experience and presence to reflect back to people that actually
• 33:01
  it's all okay and
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: you can do this if this is the way you want to go.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: I also felt you were incredibly non-judgmental.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So whether people drank,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: didn't drink,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: drank too much,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it was,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: you were there,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: you'd be there,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: you'd be the same.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: There was no walk of shame, which I think is very important.
• 33:28
  But also I think you're under a certain amount of time pressure
• 33:32
  because I can't
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: remember the numbers,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: but they could fill up,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: couldn't they?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: What was the sort of... Maybe we'd have up on 20 people for an hour.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:42
  So if there were insurance companies watching this,
• 33:47
  they'd be rapping on your door.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hang on a second.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're telling me this guy can hold a group with 20 people and at work?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going, yeah, because I've been there.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't go personally when I'm working clinically.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would rarely want to go over six people in a group.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it was the same.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: It had all the qualities.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: I hope it had the qualities and principles that you demonstrated,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: but it was just on a smaller scale,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: and it would go much more intensely into things like serious trauma.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: None of the groups I ran were alcohol-focused.
• 34:25
  They were all extreme trauma-focused,
• 34:28
  but people in the group also had substance use problems.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I never really talked about the substance use.
• 34:36
  It was more the focus on the trauma and the substance use sort
• 34:41
  of took care of
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: itself,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: which is quite fascinating in a way.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, what was offered were places where people could scream.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been in group six people and five,
• 34:59
  I think four or five of the people had been involuntary
• 35:02
  admitted to hospital
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: because they screamed.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because the professional didn't like what they were saying.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: They couldn't hold the scream.
• 35:13
  So they thought the only way they could hold the scream was to
• 35:16
  have someone
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: involuntary hospitalized or at least,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: phone an ambulance type situation.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: I never saw you get that nervous.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: when faced with people who might be in quite vulnerable states.
• 35:37
  And I heard you say that,
• 35:38
  you know,
• 35:38
  that comes from a lot of your personal background.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you're quite modest.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know whether you were going to mention disability or not.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to leave that open to you.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you live a life.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: You've done the, I can't remember how to pronounce it.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the Camino?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Camino, yeah, I've done it twice.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I've done parts of it twice with my brothers.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you've been in a chair?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm 53 now and I went into the chair permanently.
• 36:08
  I was using it all my life,
• 36:10
  but I went into it permanently when I was 13,
• 36:12
  so 40 years actually.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: So when I think of you, that's not what comes to mind, right?
• 36:18
  What comes to mind is all your qualities and then that is like
• 36:22
  a,
• 36:22
  wow,
• 36:23
  and there's that,
• 36:25
  right?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is that how you see your, I mean, have you moved away?
• 36:30
  Because were you quite active in this sort of activism space or
• 36:35
  the advocacy space?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Would that be?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Not,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: not,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: not,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: not initially,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: but laterally I was,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: I was,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: I was,
• 36:42
  I did some work with the Irish Human Rights and Quality
• 36:44
  Commission on their,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: on one of their disability,
• 36:46
  on a disability advisory committee for six years and that ended
• 36:49
  last year.
• 36:50
  And,
• 36:52
  but you know,
• 36:52
  that hadn't ever been really a focus for me growing,
• 36:57
  growing up.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the, um, it was,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: my brothers,
• 37:06
  I think I was very fortunate in that I was born in the early
• 37:10
  70s in rural Ireland,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: rural west of Ireland.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: And both my brothers don't have disabilities.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so the special schools and things,
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: maybe they were there,
• 37:24
  but it was never really a question because I just went to the
• 37:26
  school down the road.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: with my brothers and with everybody else.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: We just got on with it.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: my parents are instrumental in the whole thing,
• 37:38
  even because there was never a question of me being treated any
• 37:42
  different.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was just,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: we'll just,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: we'll see,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: see how it's,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: it's a question of if,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: it's not a question of,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: or can we make it work?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's how do we make it work?
• 37:51
  And that's been,
• 37:52
  it's been the way my whole family really work really forever,
• 37:57
  still do.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: I find it incredibly inspiring.
• 38:01
  It's like the positive cherry on the cake,
• 38:04
  right,
• 38:04
  in terms of all that you offer.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Your family saw you as Gary.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And there was additional challenges.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And there was additional challenges that we just got on with.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: And because I,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: as I said,
• 38:16
  I spent a chunk of time in hospital when I was younger and I
• 38:19
  was Gary from
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Roskamma,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: the guy in the wheelchair from at the road.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: That was,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: and you know,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: when I was in secondary school,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: I was in a normal Christian brother school.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: for four of those six years I was there,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: I was in the bottom floor of the school,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: in classrooms in the bottom floor.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: But in the last two years,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I was upstairs.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so what did that mean?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that meant we just got on with it.
• 38:44
  There'd be four guys,
• 38:46
  um,
• 38:47
  uh,
• 38:48
  downstairs,
• 38:48
  four of my classmates downstairs every morning.
• 38:50
  We'd carry me upstairs and then down again at lunchtime and
• 38:53
  then back up again.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's just what we did.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that didn't seem unusual.
• 38:58
  And,
• 38:58
  uh,
• 38:59
  and you know,
• 39:00
  nowadays it's,
• 39:01
  it's,
• 39:01
  it's different and,
• 39:03
  and,
• 39:03
  um,
• 39:04
  thankfully it is,
• 39:05
  um,
• 39:07
  but the thing that I think one of my brothers said to me you
• 39:12
  know I think if you
• 39:14
  talk to very most people that were disabled and you mentioned
• 39:19
  inspiring they'll all
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: roll their eyes and but
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: It took me a long time to really come to terms with that.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I probably still haven't to a degree.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: But my brother said to me once,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: he said,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: if someone finds you inspiring,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: it's none of your business.
• 39:40
  And which I found that quite a profound step into kind of it
• 39:45
  kind of unlock something for me.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of let it go then.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as long as you don't find it some sort of insult, right?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: because I know it's said,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: and I know it's said from a good place.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: And when it is kind of in the inspiring,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: when it's said in that kind of maybe slightly condescending,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: slightly,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: patronizing way,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: The I just said that that's fine.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's coming from a good place.
• 40:19
  But when it's saying it said like you're saying is from a kind
• 40:22
  of a from a capacity
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: point of view and from a professional point of view,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: then it's a massive compliment.
• 40:29
  When I review this,
• 40:30
  and if it sounds condescending,
• 40:32
  I'm going to cut it out.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't, take it from me.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: But it comes down then to this idea of agency.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we are,
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: thrown into the world,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: I believe,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: into a set of conditions that we don't,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Buddhists might say you choose,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: you choose,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: the,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: the life,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: but in theory,
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: you're,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: we are thrown into a set of conditions.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you've,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: already made the demarcation with West Ireland.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: You might want to quantify what that difference is.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got that.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: We've got embodiment, the physical.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: We've got our developmental history,
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: trauma,
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: social embeddedness,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: unconscious conflict,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: structural constraints.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I put all that under...
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: the term radical agency.
• 41:35
  So a lot of people talk about agency and I refer to it as a
• 41:39
  sartarian bypass.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, why aren't you making the choice?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you just choose to give up alcohol?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's a sartarian bypass which leaves out all those things.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: that sometimes aren't quite in view.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take the link with trauma,
• 42:00
  someone feels overwhelmed and they have this pattern where they
• 42:04
  just turn to
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: alcohol.
• 42:05
  To me,
• 42:06
  that's not true agency because they're not fully aware of the
• 42:10
  connection.
• 42:12
  right once they've made the connection once those two things
• 42:14
  come into awareness
• 42:15
  then they can make an informed choice so I could be wrongly
• 42:22
  convicted and sent to
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: prison right I am within a set of conditions my freedom is limited
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: by those conditions, but I can choose what to do within it.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: I could choose to do drugs and join a gang,
• 42:36
  or I could choose to go to the prison library and exercise and
• 42:39
  read up on law.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts when it comes down to agency and alcohol?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think this is where the 12-step group...
• 42:55
  an alcohol free group diverge and also the model of the disease
• 43:01
  model relates very
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: much to the mental health world.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 43:06
  is this a disease that I'm with for life or is there much more
• 43:12
  agency in here than
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: we've been told?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: I have really,
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: really strong views on this and probably makes me,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: if I'm good at my job,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: it probably makes me as good at my job because of this views that I have.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: which aren't unique to me,
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: but I really hold them strongly,
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: is that you mentioned earlier on,
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: you mentioned two things earlier on.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned this walk of shame idea,
• 43:40
  but you also mentioned when you're in a group with me or when
• 43:44
  I'm in a group,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: there's no judgment.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: one of the real,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: one of the things that,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: you're two years off of free now,
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm a bunch of time,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: but before you're into your second year,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm coming up on my bunch of time,
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: and
• 44:03
  One of the things that is true for both of us is that this
• 44:07
  isn't our first rodeo.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that I went from,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: as I said,
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: it was in the mid-90s when I potentially thought this isn't,
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: this is just not sitting well with me.
• 44:18
  But I didn't think there was,
• 44:19
  you know,
• 44:20
  this is what you're supposed to do.
• 44:21
  Now,
• 44:22
  so I suppose it's a long way of saying when it doesn't go right
• 44:27
  for someone,
• 44:28
  I'm inviting,
• 44:30
  always inviting and always pushing and always challenging
• 44:32
  curiosity.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: And curiosity is kind of one of those words,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: it's a bit of a buzzword these days,
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: but that's the key.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so when somebody can get curious and not judgmental on themselves,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: and that's the thing that I will hold dearly and I will push on is that,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: let's just...
• 44:51
  just stop being judgmental for a second and we can we can we
• 44:55
  put that aside for a
• 44:56
  second and go okay what could we do differently and actually
• 45:01
  and and the power i
• 45:03
  think in in the work that i that where we met is in this other
• 45:08
  person maybe maybe
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: seeing hold on a sec this isn't catastrophic
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't, you know, I can go again.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: I can go again.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then when they go again,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: and I actually get a little bit further down the road,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: and then maybe it goes sideways again.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, all right, we've got a bit more learning.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: Go again.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: So to be fair,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: what you're referring to is if people decide,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be alcohol-free,
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: and then for whatever happens,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: they drink again.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying that's not catastrophic.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's approached from the point of view of,
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, you've achieved something here and now you're going to keep going.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: and it links directly into agency because eventually,
• 45:53
  if we keep holding that space or keep being with them and keep
• 45:57
  believing them,
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: unconditionally believing that they can get to where they want to get to,
• 46:02
  unconditionally regardless of what they think then if there
• 46:07
  comes a time with
• 46:08
  persistence that they actually and they will not have in their
• 46:12
  way they will have
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: that same experience of waking up and going hold on a sec
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: I can actually do this.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where agency to me kicks up several notches because,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: and this is something that came up for me earlier on as you were talking,
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: is that quite often,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: and maybe you find this,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: maybe you don't,
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: is that the alcohol is the easy bit.
• 46:40
  Like when we get that and you put that back there and now
• 46:44
  you're moving on to your work.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: You've got a week or two on your belt.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: You actually got the momentum.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: You've got the, you're waking up and every morning you've got energy.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: You've got clarity.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now what we're focusing on.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: And okay, well, maybe it's going to go sideways again.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's come back.
• 47:02
  And it's just that unconditional belief,
• 47:05
  which I see missing in other ways of doing things.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:19
  I came to this conclusion that the term recovery and hope had
• 47:23
  become conspiracy
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: theories.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: My understanding of the original 12-step model was it was about recovery.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't indefinitely.
• 47:34
  You know,
• 47:34
  the original wording in the big blue book was about being able
• 47:38
  to recover.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: But people get into this idea that potentially it isn't possible.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: But in your mind, if somebody goes, right, I want to be alcohol free.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then for some reason, say six weeks in, they drink again.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: How would you relate to the concept of agency in that situation?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, just asking them questions like, okay, what was that about?
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think that was about rather than,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: rather than,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: and it's really critical to just...
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm almost going to say not make a big deal of it.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 48:19
  I'm not really,
• 48:20
  I don't really care about the alcohol bit,
• 48:22
  that bit over there.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know what's going to be different.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think we could do differently here?
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't really want to know about the event.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, it's not relevant to me.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to know about, okay.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: and that's,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: someone I find,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: I have found quite a bit that people won't,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: that will disarm a lot was that people,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: you don't want to know how much I drank.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know how, you don't want to know what happened.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, not really.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: What's the learning here?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think you might have caused?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: What was the trigger?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: And there's always, not always,
• 49:13
  a lot of the time there's what I will call the canary in the
• 49:16
  coal mine is that you
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: have the,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:19
  maybe they were meditating for a couple of weeks and maybe they
• 49:22
  were journaling
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: every morning or maybe they were,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: doing something and it slipped for a few days.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's the canary in the coal mine.
• 49:31
  that's the thing that we have to watch they stop doing the
• 49:34
  things that sustain them
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: so when I followed this thread where I came to was ambivalence
• 49:46
  So what I discovered with other people and certainly myself is
• 49:51
  if I say I'm going
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: to do one thing and do another,
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: there was obviously ambivalence,
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: So what I mean by that is basically I want to lose weight.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: but I want the slice of pizza.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: I had this Tibetan teacher once,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: and he said,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: that was the example he gave,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: and he said,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: remain curious.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a sort of teaching method.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I did, and then I discovered, wow, it's all about omnivalence.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take, the difference I would say is, I can go into a bar,
• 50:33
  And I could sit in a bar,
• 50:34
  still at the bar,
• 50:35
  and I can drink any drink in that bar.
• 50:38
  In fact,
• 50:39
  I can drink as much as I want in that bar at any time I want,
• 50:43
  but I choose not to.
• 50:44
  I don't,
• 50:46
  I can choose to drink or I can choose not to,
• 50:48
  but I simply,
• 50:49
  I choose not to.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: There are other people who'll come and sit at the bar still.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't be in the bar.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's triggering me.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: I want a drink, but I can't really have a drink because I have a problem.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, the ambivalence isn't resolved.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens is on a daily basis, they're having that struggle.
• 51:13
  They're fighting their mind with willpower or trying to do the
• 51:19
  checks and balances.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully each day one wins.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a hell of a lot of energy expended in the ambivalence.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: The other example I would give is...
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking about going to London or Paris for my vacation.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the energy is, you know, Paris is great.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of things, croissants, you know, London is great.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can go to Big Bend.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this energy.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason that the energy is there is because when I am ambivalent,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: I do not have to decide.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can hold Paris and London both.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the minute I decide on Paris and go all in, I can let go of London.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: So all the energy goes in to Paris.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, that kind of metaphor is the same as the alcohol-free.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Once I decide alcohol-free is amazing...
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: Once I've realized I have choice, right?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if I drink again, it's because I choose.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not because of trauma.
• 52:30
  It's not because of the pull of the alcohol because there's
• 52:33
  none in my system.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's because I choose.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 52:38
  when I have worked with people and perhaps said that maybe the
• 52:42
  reason you're
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: drinking is because you're choosing to drink,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: I find it's liberating.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: because then they can look at any residual ambivalence.
• 52:53
  Now,
• 52:54
  to get to that point,
• 52:56
  you have to,
• 52:57
  as you rightly say,
• 52:58
  form a new habit.
• 53:00
  You have to get away from actually having that glass of wine
• 53:03
  when you come in
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: because it's a good thing to do.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: In the short term,
• 53:07
  what I don't think people realize is a huge part of the reason
• 53:10
  that you want to
• 53:11
  have the glass of wine or the beer at 7 o'clock is because the
• 53:14
  alcohol wants you to
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: have the beer.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: or the wine at seven o'clock, you're actually detoxing.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: So people think,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 53:22
  it's only an alcoholic or somebody who has serious problems
• 53:24
  with alcohol has the
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: experience of detox.
• 53:28
  But actually what I learned was actually that craving isn't
• 53:32
  necessarily some sort of habit.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's a habit there, yes, but there's also a physical component.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I jumped around there, but there's this connection between
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Getting away and forming new habits and getting,
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: if you like,
• 53:49
  detoxed from a bad habit and then really resolving the
• 53:54
  ambivalence so that we can
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: see that we have real choice.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: The ambivalence is, I think it's the thing that unlocks...
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Once you're aware of it and,
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: everyone that,
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: that has ever worked with me and mentioned ambivalence and said,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to become ambivalent.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to become complacent.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: they're there because you're aware of it.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: And once you're aware of it, it's not going to catch you.
• 54:33
  The thing that also comes up for me as you were talking there
• 54:36
  was this whole
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: transactional nature of alcohol.
• 54:40
  And what I mean by transactional nature is that we all talk
• 54:45
  about all the time,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: relatively speaking,
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: about the cost of drinking,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: the cost of drinking alcohol.
• 54:52
  But what we don't talk about really that much is the cost of
• 54:54
  not drinking alcohol.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's got a cost too.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's absolutely the opposite because,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: I might come in from,
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: work with my seven o'clock thing and feel my pull towards alcohol,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: my craving,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: whatever,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: for whatever reason,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: whether that be physical,
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: whether that be habitual or whatever it might be.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's my cost.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm paying my cost.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so then I get my benefit.
• 55:24
  and the following day with my energy,
• 55:27
  with my clarity,
• 55:28
  whatever it might be.
• 55:29
  And I think the important part for the work that I do and I
• 55:35
  have done is to
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: challenge people to collect that cost or collect that benefit,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: collect it.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's my benefit,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: there's my energy,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: there's my clarity,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: the grass is a bit greener this morning or whatever it might be.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: And if we can dial into that,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: then I think we kind of, and appreciate that.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a big fan of gratitude lists,
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: but at the same time,
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: we use all of those concepts to pick out these wins,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: then we're,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think we kind of kill ambivalence.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: We can kill ambivalence.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: Quick sidebar, why are you not a fan of gratitude lists?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: I...
• 56:24
  I just think it becomes a little bit,
• 56:26
  it's become a little bit like manifestation these days.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, write three things down that you're... Controversial.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: Write three things down that you're grateful for and it'll all be okay.
• 56:38
  But if it's,
• 56:41
  you know,
• 56:41
  I just wish it wasn't put out there with numbers on it.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like write 10 things down you're grateful for.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: Write all of them down.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just if you're going to do it, write them all down.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm pinning that because that's too important and exciting.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: I want to dive into that a little bit.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: So going back to,
• 57:03
  you bring up something brilliant that I learned and I think you
• 57:07
  concur with on
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: agency.
• 57:09
  I realized that some of the great gurus in motivation and
• 57:14
  change got it wrong.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: So what I learned very early on was if you associate enough pain with
• 57:21
  with doing the old behavior and enough pleasure with the new
• 57:25
  behavior,
• 57:26
  you can change.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what you highlighted was what was missing in that.
• 57:32
  There are positives for stopping alcohol and there are
• 57:36
  negatives for stopping alcohol.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: There are positives for drinking and there are negatives for drinking.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: There are four quadrants.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if you miss any of the four, it's like denying that
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: alcohol can de-stress in the short term.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't acknowledge that, then it's kind of not truthful.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's really like this idea with substances, just say no, K-N-O-W.
• 58:06
  You don't go into a bunch of kids and say drugs are all bad
• 58:10
  because it's not true.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why would people be doing them?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: You have to balance the danger and the positives.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: So in the same way,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think bringing that into awareness that there's this four quadrants,
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: there's actually going to be a negative of giving up.
• 58:27
  You know,
• 58:28
  yeah,
• 58:28
  I put on weight when I eat the pizza,
• 58:30
  but God,
• 58:30
  it tastes good in the short term.
• 58:34
  I also think that that's almost by a kind of a corollary of
• 58:39
  that is that it
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: respects people's intelligence as well.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because if we're going to say that alcohol is bad,
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: then that just makes everybody stupid for doing it.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not the case.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 58:57
  there are billions and billions and billions of people who
• 58:59
  drink alcohol that are
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: perfectly rational in terms of people,
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: and probably most of them actually.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you can hold that.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm holding that.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's bad.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing on the tin?
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know what it's incredible for, I think?
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: Taking the edge off socially.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a bunch of people in a room and they're not quite gelling,
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: throw in a couple of drinks and you can really warm it up really quickly.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not that I am all bad, but there's a lot of bad.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: I will get that.
• 59:40
  And I suppose the point being is that when it gets to a place
• 59:48
  that is unhealthy,
• 59:49
  then...
• 59:56
  And it doesn't mean that it doesn't work for you in those
• 1:00:01
  initial half an hour or
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_02: whatever it is.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: It still does the job.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_02: So you're doing it for a reason.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: Now, it's not a logical reason because logic goes out the window.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's more of a habitual kind of...
• 1:00:15
  survival brain reason but so yeah it's just it works I suppose
• 1:00:24
  is the point to a
• 1:00:25
  point to a very limited point I guess my whole thing is there's
• 1:00:31
  one thing I wanted
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: to try and get out of all this work in the podcast is informed choice
• 1:00:38
  So I would say I was drinking alcohol and I wasn't informed of
• 1:00:43
  all the data.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a bit like licking honey off the razor's edge.
• 1:00:50
  Yeah,
• 1:00:50
  there can be great fun and things with alcohol,
• 1:00:53
  but you also need to know the risks.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: When I started drinking...
• 1:01:00
  You know,
• 1:01:00
  I knew a little bit,
• 1:01:01
  but I didn't know this is a seriously addictive drug.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: It creeps up on you in ways that,
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:08
  Samuel Johnson said the chains of habit are too weak to be felt
• 1:01:12
  until they're too
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: strong to be broken.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, nobody sets out to have a problem with alcohol.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's on them before kind of they realize.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is,
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: I remember being in a forensic clinic,
• 1:01:27
  both very fancy pants in London and they're doing this clinical
• 1:01:31
  meeting and they
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: put up all these complex cases,
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: murder,
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: literally murder and all this sort of stuff.
• 1:01:37
  And I put my hand up and said,
• 1:01:39
  you know,
• 1:01:39
  there's a common denominator in all these cases.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: And, oh yeah, what is that?
• 1:01:43
  And I said,
• 1:01:43
  they were all intoxicated when they committed the key index
• 1:01:46
  offence.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a bit of a murmur and then they moved on.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they moved on because it wasn't interesting enough, but it was true.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying they committed the offense because they were on alcohol,
• 1:01:59
  but I'm questioning whether they would have committed the
• 1:02:01
  offense if they hadn't
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: have been.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a bit like the drink driving.
• 1:02:07
  I think there are very few people who would drink and drive if
• 1:02:12
  they were sober.
• 1:02:17
  It's unlike many other drugs in the terms of what people will
• 1:02:21
  do under their
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: influence that they regret,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: that they wake up the next morning and go,
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: oh my God,
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe I said that.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not aware of the same thing happening on a lot of other drugs.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I'm pricing one over the other,
• 1:02:35
  but I'm just saying it has certain properties that seem to be
• 1:02:39
  unique to it.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I recognize that.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_01: I remember Timothy Leary saying,
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: the psychedelic guy,
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: he said,
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:49
  every major mistake he made in his life was under the influence
• 1:02:52
  of liquor.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: Which is interesting.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: Very interesting.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: Coming from him.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: Coming from him.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: All the different.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of concur.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a really important subject because
• 1:03:09
  if people are liberated to see that they have agency and they
• 1:03:13
  have choice,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: they are empowered and potentially self liberated.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: If I say to you,
• 1:03:18
  you have no choice because you're an alcoholic or you're an
• 1:03:22
  addict or you've
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: experienced trauma,
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: I closed down the horizon for change.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not that, that,
• 1:03:36
  It's not to reduce or negate suffering that people experience
• 1:03:40
  and the challenge
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: they experience.
• 1:03:42
  It's more to bring into view that perhaps there's more choice
• 1:03:46
  here than you
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: initially first realized.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it takes a while to get there.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: But it does...
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not the first thing that arises either.
• 1:04:02
  You know,
• 1:04:03
  it's kind of,
• 1:04:03
  you know,
• 1:04:04
  now we need to pull ourselves out of the orbit of us first.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then,
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: the habitual nature,
• 1:04:09
  the detox nature of things needs to fade and we need to create
• 1:04:13
  new patterns.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what I find is before choice and agency,
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: arises or almost at the same time,
• 1:04:28
  the whole idea of disinterest in alcohol kind of begins to
• 1:04:36
  emerge where you
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: actually go,
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not a thing.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_02: Now that takes a chunk of time.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so then the question,
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: or then the statement can arise that people can say,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: actually I can drink as much as I want whenever I want.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: And as I've heard before, and I just choose not to.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's really fundamental what you're saying.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's back to this idea of it's not a bypass, right?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we are acknowledging that it's not a binary.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you just choose.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no.
• 1:05:12
  There's a really,
• 1:05:15
  I'm putting words in your mouth,
• 1:05:16
  but there's a challenging process
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: to get to the point where agency becomes clear,
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: and I've alluded to resolving the ambivalence,
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: also the other factors that could be involved,
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: environment,
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: embodiment,
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: trauma,
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: Could you put a figure on it?
• 1:05:37
  Could you give a rough estimation of how long you think it
• 1:05:39
  takes the average person
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: to move from a position of
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: struggling,
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: learning,
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: willpower,
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: detoxing,
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: to the point where it becomes a much clearer choice.
• 1:05:56
  When I'm asked that question,
• 1:05:59
  I'm always pulled to say somewhere between six months and a
• 1:06:05
  year.
• 1:06:05
  And the only reason I'm saying that is because it sounds
• 1:06:10
  reasonably doable.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: What I really want to say is it takes a year.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's because when you're actually out of the orbit,
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_02: now most people will get there much sooner than that.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not so much about the time, really.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's about, you know, it's about the attitude towards.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's going,
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: when you take alcohol off its pedestal,
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_02: if you take alcohol off its pedestal,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_02: because in dry January,
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: it's not been taken off its pedestal.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_02: The 1st of February...
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_02: will be 2nd of February, will be what it is.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: It'll be lots of hangovers and the rest of it.
• 1:06:57
  But if you do the work and experience and pick up the wins and
• 1:07:02
  pick up what you're
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: going towards consistently over that period of time,
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_02: you can do it much faster.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've come across several instances where people have done a year.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: but they're celebrated by drinking on day three, six, six.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_02: And, and, and it is.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I'll celebrate with the drink.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:07:25
  And,
• 1:07:25
  and so that's,
• 1:07:25
  so,
• 1:07:26
  so,
• 1:07:26
  you know,
• 1:07:28
  and,
• 1:07:28
  and that's,
• 1:07:29
  that's a difficult place to be.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's not really about the number of days,
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_02: but it is in some sense in that you have to create the pattern and,
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: embed the pattern.
• 1:07:43
  And,
• 1:07:43
  you know,
• 1:07:43
  it doesn't take 21 days or six days or anything like that to
• 1:07:47
  create a habit.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_02: It takes as long as it takes.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, who was it?
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: Huberman came up with this idea of limbic friction,
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_02: of,
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: some habits are stickier than others.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, alcohol is one of the stickier ones.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: And at least that's where I heard it.
• 1:08:13
  And so it just,
• 1:08:15
  but if you do the work of actually picking up the winds and,
• 1:08:18
  you know,
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: not denying that alcohol is still kind of annoying at you,
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: but then you're kind of going,
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: When you get to a place where you're actually going towards something,
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_02: you move alcohol from a place of I can't or I shouldn't,
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_02: so I don't want to.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're in that place, it doesn't matter what the day is.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: You're there.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's strong.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think,
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_01: one of the things I learned was,
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm giving words to what I think you said,
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: there is a neurobiological component.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I came to neurobiology late.
• 1:08:51
  So in a way,
• 1:08:54
  I put the science on top of what I kind of experienced
• 1:08:58
  intuitively clinically.
• 1:08:59
  But I think it's incredibly important when you think of things
• 1:09:02
  like complex trauma.
• 1:09:04
  And when you think of a thing,
• 1:09:05
  I'm going to use the word addiction,
• 1:09:06
  right?
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or habitual use, right?
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_01: The mind is wired.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's clucking to repeat.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's wired.
• 1:09:14
  It's got these associations,
• 1:09:17
  you know,
• 1:09:17
  pain,
• 1:09:17
  pleasure,
• 1:09:18
  et cetera,
• 1:09:19
  and wired to it.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is a,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: if you could fast forward people to a year,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: they would experience that that has settled down.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: But there is a job of work to do to work to transform that,
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: to work with the neuroplasticity where the old habit is replaced by new.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: In my own work with people, I don't even think of a year, right?
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I would completely concur.
• 1:09:48
  I think something around the year mark changes of its own
• 1:09:53
  volition in terms of agency.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: Prior to that,
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_01: I break it down into three days.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: This would apply to anything, right?
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Chocolate or cigarettes, right?
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the three days is a real intense detox.
• 1:10:09
  No matter whether it's like a glass of wine every few days or a
• 1:10:12
  bar of chocolate,
• 1:10:13
  right?
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you've put your foot on the accelerator and take it off,
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: there's an adjustment,
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if you change any sort of chemical makeup,
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: After that, my target is the 14 days.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: I call the kick, right?
• 1:10:30
  So it's like,
• 1:10:32
  I think something happens after 14 days where you could say
• 1:10:36
  that there's a detox.
• 1:10:37
  If you think of cannabis,
• 1:10:39
  cannabis is often still active in the system for the two-week
• 1:10:43
  mark.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then after that, I worked in like the 30 days, the 60 days, 90 days.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the numbers can be good milestones.
• 1:10:53
  But I think that the system takes time to readjust to any
• 1:11:02
  abstinence if something
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: has been done on a regular,
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: even exercise,
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Creating the habit of exercise or losing the habit of exercise,
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: it takes a little while before you feel the full force of that.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you could say that radical agency,
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_01: it's a process of unfolding to get to the point where,
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'll repeat that.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: If I drink alcohol, it's because I choose.
• 1:11:30
  If I was at the beginning of the journey and I was three days
• 1:11:34
  in or a week,
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I have that same binary choice.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm working against habit,
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: neurobiology,
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: conditioning,
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: social context,
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And my own personal data for that is I used to do six-month chunks.
• 1:11:55
  So I used to give up alcohol for six months at a time,
• 1:11:59
  mainly to lose weight.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I should have said that was really my motivation.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I actually enjoyed alcohol a lot, probably too much.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, I realized I couldn't lose weight and drink.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: I had to make a choice.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So in a way, it was a resolving of the ambivalence in that regard.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, I want to keep the weight off more than I want to drink.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's easier.
• 1:12:21
  But when I was in the early stages,
• 1:12:23
  I was competing against all those things that I mentioned.
• 1:12:28
  And also,
• 1:12:29
  whether we haven't touched on,
• 1:12:30
  there was a self-medication,
• 1:12:32
  right?
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize when I stopped drinking alcohol,
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, my energy was so intense.
• 1:12:40
  I actually said to a friend,
• 1:12:41
  I think somebody might be putting something in my food.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had this intensity of energy,
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: but I realized that there was a slight neurodivergent component to that,
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: I had a mind...
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_01: that organized things in a particular way that had a particular energy.
• 1:12:59
  And I think now on reflection that there was a component of
• 1:13:03
  self-medication where
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: the alcohol allowed me to kind of switch off.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I would never have known that.
• 1:13:09
  I would never have discovered that until I had a long enough
• 1:13:12
  period of absence to
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_01: really sort out what was what.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So again, I think there are a lot of people may not even know
• 1:13:24
  some of the underlying reasons for the motivation to turn to
• 1:13:29
  substances in a particular way.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_02: The only way to kind of get that knowledge or get that, um,
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's time is, is just to, is to just give yourself the chance.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to bring it back to this belief thing is that,
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_02: when,
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_02: the unconditional,
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_02: and that's why things have worked out,
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_02: the way they have for me is that just come back,
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_02: just come back,
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_02: just come back.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And, uh, because, you know,
• 1:14:08
  the coaching books say and it's I think it's the fundamental
• 1:14:11
  that I believed before
• 1:14:14
  I read it or I intuitively believed before I read it or before
• 1:14:18
  I found it is that
• 1:14:19
  everybody that I work with is creative resourceful and whole
• 1:14:24
  and I believe creative
• 1:14:27
  resourceful and whole I really like that it's one of the
• 1:14:32
  cornerstones of coaching
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_02: and
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the thing that really
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_02: made me, because what I do now doesn't feel like a job.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a full-time coach and it just doesn't feel like a job.
• 1:14:50
  And I'm really fortunate to be in that position because what I
• 1:14:55
  did before was great.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was brilliant.
• 1:14:56
  I wouldn't necessarily have changed out those 30 years in the
• 1:15:00
  industry that I was
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: in,
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: but it felt like a job every day.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_02: But this doesn't.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so...
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that allows me,
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_02: if to go into every conversation,
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_02: whether it be about alcohol or anything else,
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_02: anything else,
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_02: with that same mindset every time.
• 1:15:23
  If it hasn't worked out,
• 1:15:24
  okay,
• 1:15:25
  go again,
• 1:15:26
  go again,
• 1:15:27
  go again,
• 1:15:27
  however long it takes.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_01: The trick is not to give up.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:33
  I saw this interview once with Oprah and she was asked what
• 1:15:39
  makes somebody successful.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_01: You've seen all these people.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_01: You've had the privilege of interviewing everyone, right?
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_01: From time began.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_01: What makes, what's the key component?
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And she didn't even breathe.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't even like have to think.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_01: She just said, knowing what you want.
• 1:15:57
  right so I think part of the resolving ambivalence it's like
• 1:16:01
  knowing what you want
• 1:16:03
  and then not giving up on it because her point was once you
• 1:16:05
  know what you want
• 1:16:06
  you'll do everything that you can to get it but if you're
• 1:16:09
  ambivalent so again
• 1:16:11
  that's an underline you know you have to want it I often talk
• 1:16:13
  to people about
• 1:16:14
  change and kind of rocky three right it's like the eye of the
• 1:16:20
  tiger you have to
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: have the same eye of the tiger to want
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_01: to make the change as you did to do the other habit.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes that's not made explicit.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to say to people it's possible, but I'm not saying it's easy.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_01: It might be a good moment to ask you,
• 1:16:42
  what's the difference between a coach in your mind and a depth
• 1:16:45
  psychotherapist?
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_02: with my limited knowledge of what a death psychotherapist is,
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm probably going to say something here that might annoy lots of
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_02: psychotherapists,
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_02: but,
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_02: the easy answer is that the psychotherapy is,
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_02: is focused on the past and the coaches is,
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_02: is focused on the future.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And, um,
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Which is an easy answer, but it is quite a bland answer.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think the difference,
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's much of a difference,
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_02: to be honest with you,
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_02: in terms of what the outcome is,
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_02: what's the attitude here.
• 1:17:37
  And any good coach,
• 1:17:40
  any good psychotherapist,
• 1:17:43
  I don't believe,
• 1:17:44
  or I do believe will...
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_02: believe and want their client,
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_02: whoever's sitting in front of them,
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_02: to be,
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_02: let's use the cliche because I believe in it,
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_02: the best version of themselves.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever way you do that,
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_02: whatever conversation you have to have,
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_02: whatever methodologies,
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_02: tools,
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_02: frameworks you have to use or you do use to support that person,
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: because they really have a problem with the word help for some reason,
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_02: is to support that person.
• 1:18:19
  I think it's about agency as well,
• 1:18:20
  actually,
• 1:18:21
  to get to where they want to get to.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Psychotherapy.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Coaching.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:18:31
  I think the modality is just a different way of getting to the
• 1:18:39
  better or best
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_02: version of themselves.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's a fudgy answer,
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_02: but I think,
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_02: for a good one of either of those things,
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_02: there's probably very little difference.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was fair.
• 1:18:54
  I would say that the past isn't of interest to me as much as
• 1:19:02
  the presenting past.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_01: The past is none of my business, but if a pattern is showing up,
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: consistently,
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: if people are repeating the same things,
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_01: often there can be some sort of genesis of that in the past.
• 1:19:21
  And as you say,
• 1:19:22
  the old school would have been maybe to perhaps investigate
• 1:19:25
  that.
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of a bonus.
• 1:19:27
  What's more of interest to me is what is this pattern that we
• 1:19:31
  can identify and can we change it?
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_01: We converge on gratitude.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think gratitude is incredible for many,
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_01: many reasons,
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_01: not least of which it can cut through anxiety.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_01: if your life's going well and you start getting anxious,
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_01: they could lose it all,
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_01: for instance,
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_01: or your life isn't going that well.
• 1:19:58
  Both those things,
• 1:19:59
  I think,
• 1:20:00
  if you drop into gratitude,
• 1:20:03
  it can have a huge impact on the mind.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell people to start with their underwear,
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_01: which you usually get to laugh,
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_01: but I actually mean it.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So when I talk about gratitude, I literally will go...
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wearing clean underwear.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Not everyone in the world is sitting wearing clean, clean clothes.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sitting, I'm relatively safe.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm warm.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fed.
• 1:20:28
  You know,
• 1:20:28
  I find I don't need to get very far before suddenly I get
• 1:20:31
  perspective on my life.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So many problems come from when we lose a perspective.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think gratitude brings us back.
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_01: But you're saying something about when it becomes sort of quantifiable,
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_01: we have to do a list of gratitude and it becomes a bit of a,
• 1:20:47
  and you know the depth is not there and that's what annoys me
• 1:20:52
  is that why are we
• 1:20:54
  doing it why are we doing it and the reason why we're doing it
• 1:20:56
  and you mentioned
• 1:20:57
  the word and I think it is the word is perspective is that you
• 1:21:02
  know my coach always
• 1:21:03
  talks about you know being in the basement and in the basement
• 1:21:06
  there's no windows
• 1:21:07
  and it's all dark you can't see anything get yourself up to the
• 1:21:10
  penthouse and how
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_02: do you do that and you know
• 1:21:15
  try and try to get a bit of perspective now how do you do that
• 1:21:19
  um well think about
• 1:21:21
  the things that you're grateful for that the things that you
• 1:21:25
  know um which is great
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_02: but leave it there don't say 10 things don't say five things just
• 1:21:32
  any of them just as much as it takes and but the other problem
• 1:21:40
  I have and it's the
• 1:21:41
  same problem I have with manifestation is the implicit message
• 1:21:50
  that that's it
• 1:21:52
  You just write a gratitude list and write what you want to
• 1:21:56
  manifest it,
• 1:21:56
  and there you go.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Put it back.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Put it away, and you're there.
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of,
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_02: and it's part of going back to the same,
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_02: part of process,
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_02: part of a journey,
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_02: part of the hard work.
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_02: When things are difficult,
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_02: when,
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_02: you really want to drink or whatever it might be,
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_02: is that,
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_02: let's bring ourselves back.
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Let's bring ourselves out a bit.
• 1:22:20
  If you call it perspective,
• 1:22:21
  you can call it grass or you can call it whatever you want.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_02: And bring yourself out a bit.
• 1:22:26
  SPEAKER_02: See where you are, who you are.
• 1:22:28
  And going back again to that creative,
• 1:22:31
  resourceful whole piece,
• 1:22:35
  which every good coach knows.
• 1:22:37
  And bringing yourself back to at least considering the idea
• 1:22:48
  that you're as good as
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_02: everybody else.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think is something that,
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_02: I struggled with for,
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_02: and still did for a long,
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_02: long time.
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:23:01
  it's fascinating how many people are caring and loving and
• 1:23:03
  giving to others,
• 1:23:05
  but they can't quite give that same love and care and
• 1:23:08
  especially forgiveness.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I see that a lot.
• 1:23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So people can forgive so many other people in their life,
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_01: but perhaps they can't forgive themselves.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of the presenting past.
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_01: They're still trying to reconcile perhaps something that they have done.
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Manifestation is a bit of a buzzword and I
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely didn't want to get into the woo-woo on the show,
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_01: but it's worth talking about because I have two different takes on this.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's manifestation where I'm thinking of...
• 1:23:43
  SPEAKER_01: leaving my job to be a coach, right?
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then I decide I'm going to do it.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to leave and I'm going to be a coach.
• 1:23:48
  And then suddenly somebody offers me an office space really
• 1:23:53
  cheap that I didn't
• 1:23:54
  SPEAKER_01: know was there,
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_01: nearly like out of the blue,
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you can say it kind of manifested.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_01: My view on that is it's always there, right?
• 1:24:05
  But we're never going to come across it until we move out or we
• 1:24:09
  move towards what we want to do.
• 1:24:11
  I think that's different from this idea of,
• 1:24:14
  I want to be a coach,
• 1:24:15
  so I'm just going to wish it.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it happens.
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I feel it's somewhere in between.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know whether you've ever tried that,
• 1:24:24
  writing down 10 things that you'd like and putting it in an
• 1:24:27
  envelope and putting it
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_01: away.
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_01: I do it nearly every year.
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm on a vacation and I'm in a hotel that's got stationary,
• 1:24:34
  I always write a letter to myself about the things that I would
• 1:24:37
  like to change.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I did it in a year's time.
• 1:24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And nearly always that I achieved the things that I wanted.
• 1:24:46
  Now,
• 1:24:47
  some people might say,
• 1:24:49
  you're manifesting that because you just wrote it down.
• 1:24:51
  I think I'm bringing it into consciousness and awareness and
• 1:24:58
  manifesting it in a physical form.
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_01: I am writing it down.
• 1:25:01
  But do you come across this a lot with people and do you think
• 1:25:04
  that affects their agency?
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_02: I come across it a lot on my own, and I was lucky.
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'll answer it by saying,
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_02: when I got into personal development properly first,
• 1:25:18
  SPEAKER_02: really started digging into it,
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_02: was probably in the early 90s.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_02: And the first set of tapes,
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_02: if we remember those things,
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_02: that I listened to was a guy called Lou Tice.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_02: from Seattle and he's,
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_02: he's dead now,
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_02: but,
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_02: but,
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_02: and he taught me this idea,
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_02: and listen to it,
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_02: this part of the brain called the reticular activating system.
• 1:25:43
  And where is,
• 1:25:44
  if you're looking for a parking space,
• 1:25:46
  you're going to see it.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you're looking for red car, you're going to see it.
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're looking for an office space, you're going to find it.
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_02: And, um, it's, and
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically that if you're switched on to what you want.
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to go back to Oprah and I think she's dead right.
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_02: You have to know what you want.
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_02: And nowhere there is the word manifestation, but it's the same thing.
• 1:26:11
  Is that,
• 1:26:12
  is that,
• 1:26:12
  that if it works for you to write it down,
• 1:26:14
  absolutely go for it.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_02: and I wanted to,
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_02: and I could say now that in some ways I've done it in that I have,
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to learn for a living.
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of what I do now.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to support people for a living.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't know I wanted to do that, but that's what I do now.
• 1:26:41
  SPEAKER_02: How did I do it?
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_02: I maybe manifested it, but I kind of was open.
• 1:26:44
  SPEAKER_02: I saw the opportunities.
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Open.
• 1:26:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's important.
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Open to the possibilities.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm not answering the question you asked.
• 1:26:52
  SPEAKER_02: Does it impact people's agency?
• 1:26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it kind of does.
• 1:26:56
  I see it because when people get that chunk of time under their
• 1:26:59
  belt of abstinence,
• 1:27:02
  SPEAKER_02: whatever it might be,
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_02: then they can see that they,
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_02: almost automatically become more open.
• 1:27:12
  to things happening conversations happening people being drawn
• 1:27:17
  towards them that
• 1:27:18
  previously they might have been a bit closed off to and
• 1:27:21
  conversations happening and
• 1:27:23
  then suddenly things start to happen it seems like suddenly but
• 1:27:28
  it isn't really
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_02: like it's just the you know and it also slightly plays into this
• 1:27:36
  whole idea um which is getting worse and worse and worse in the
• 1:27:40
  world we live in
• 1:27:40
  and being rushed to being i mean i didn't change my
• 1:27:43
  relationship with alcohol until
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_02: i was 45.
• 1:27:46
  i'm 53 now and i didn't change my career entirely from coaching
• 1:27:49
  from part-time
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_02: coaching into full-time coaching until i was 50.
• 1:27:53
  And so the work I do mostly now is working with people in that
• 1:27:58
  middle spot of life
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_02: who are kind of going,
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_02: is this it?
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I am,
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_02: I am absolutely,
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_02: I hate the word passionate,
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm going to use it anyway,
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_02: passionate about,
• 1:28:10
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_02: we're getting going,
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_02: you and me.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_02: We're just getting started.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so once people see that,
• 1:28:21
  And once they,
• 1:28:25
  you know,
• 1:28:25
  get the belief in themselves,
• 1:28:27
  then that they can change.
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter what age they are.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_02: It really doesn't.
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_02: I do very well.
• 1:28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Never too late.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Never, never.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I work with,
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_02: I work with very,
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_02: very few,
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_02: relatively speaking,
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_02: I work with very few younger people.
• 1:28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, people would be around my demographic, 40s and 50s.
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thankfully,
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_02: now there's a much larger and growing movement about,
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_02: if you want to call it a midlife crisis,
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_02: go ahead,
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_02: but bring it on.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of these things become a cliche, but it's a very, very real thing.
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_01: So a bugbear I have is we don't talk about life stages enough.
• 1:29:13
  We don't talk about the difference in energy between a
• 1:29:16
  30-year-old and a 40-year-old.
• 1:29:19
  We don't talk about what it's like to be young and very
• 1:29:22
  attractive and then
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_01: suddenly be middle-aged and not attractive,
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_01: an identity change.
• 1:29:27
  SPEAKER_01: We don't talk about what it's like if we have kids...
• 1:29:30
  when they move from little gorgeous cuddly toddlers to honking
• 1:29:35
  teenagers,
• 1:29:36
  right?
• 1:29:37
  There's a loss and there's a transition and we don't seem to
• 1:29:40
  have the time or space
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_01: to talk about it and embrace it enough,
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_01: which is fascinating.
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Earlier, did you say Oprah was dead on?
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you said Oprah's dead.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_01: She's spot on.
• 1:30:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's spot on, yeah.
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Dead on.
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's an Irish expression, isn't it?
• 1:30:05
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:30:08
  I'm sure there were things that slipped by me that were really
• 1:30:11
  important that you
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_01: said,
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_01: but...
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody was listening, right?
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we're both saying, you drink, enjoy it, right?
• 1:30:21
  SPEAKER_01: But if you wanted to experience alcohol-free,
• 1:30:23
  there's definitely things to learn about how to do that and how
• 1:30:28
  to do it well.
• 1:30:29
  And there's certainly huge,
• 1:30:31
  exciting,
• 1:30:32
  wonderful benefits from experiencing that.
• 1:30:35
  If somebody was kind of listening,
• 1:30:37
  where would you say is a good place to start?
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I would say...
• 1:30:46
  SPEAKER_02: start with a chunk of time and give yourself,
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_02: whatever your,
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:30:52
  if work backwards from something that scares you to something
• 1:30:58
  that is slightly
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_02: uncomfortable.
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:31:02
  SPEAKER_02: like it might be 28 days scares the life out of you about,
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_02: well 14,
• 1:31:05
  SPEAKER_02: how does that sound?
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's too scary.
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay, seven, start with that.
• 1:31:10
  SPEAKER_02: And during that time, get a journal.
• 1:31:14
  and write down how you're feeling and and pick out what's
• 1:31:21
  better every morning
• 1:31:22
  every day what's better what's better today than it was the
• 1:31:26
  morning you woke up
• 1:31:27
  SPEAKER_02: when you were drinking and and
• 1:31:32
  SPEAKER_02: And write down, what do you want?
• 1:31:35
  SPEAKER_02: What do you want?
• 1:31:35
  Because what you'll get away from is all those things that
• 1:31:38
  alcohol was causing.
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or all those, you know, work, family, all that stuff.
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_02: You'll get away from that.
• 1:31:49
  SPEAKER_02: But as quickly as possible, what are you going to go towards?
• 1:31:52
  SPEAKER_02: And also,
• 1:31:53
  SPEAKER_02: recognizing the transaction nature,
• 1:31:56
  SPEAKER_02: those four quadrants you talked about,
• 1:31:58
  SPEAKER_02: there will be a downside to maltrinking.
• 1:32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let's accept that.
• 1:32:02
  And,
• 1:32:03
  you know,
• 1:32:03
  let's accept as well that,
• 1:32:05
  you know,
• 1:32:05
  life's not going to change overnight.
• 1:32:07
  It's,
• 1:32:07
  you know,
• 1:32:07
  we've got a life to live and,
• 1:32:09
  you know,
• 1:32:10
  you're a whole person.
• 1:32:11
  So just because maybe alcohol goes in the backseat or maybe
• 1:32:16
  eliminated entirely,
• 1:32:18
  SPEAKER_02: then it doesn't mean life's going to be brilliant.
• 1:32:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's more work to do, but that's the way to sustainability.
• 1:32:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when you're talking about a break, I think the real
• 1:32:32
  SPEAKER_02: important word here is sustainability,
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_02: is that we want a sustainable change in our relationship with alcohol.
• 1:32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Not a month,
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_02: which isn't,
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:32:42
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 1:32:42
  SPEAKER_02: a month,
• 1:32:42
  SPEAKER_02: but not a dry January month where it's kind of like close your eyes,
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_02: hold your nose and you're at the end of January.
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_02: So just concentrating on, okay, what could be better?
• 1:32:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not going to be huge tomorrow.
• 1:32:57
  but it'll be something and it won't be big the day after that,
• 1:33:02
  but it'll be something more.
• 1:33:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so, but, and if it doesn't go right, it's maybe it won't.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:33:11
  What could you do differently and do it again and do it again
• 1:33:14
  and do it again and do it again.
• 1:33:17
  SPEAKER_02: And, um,
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_02: because I'll say it again,
• 1:33:23
  SPEAKER_02: that anyone,
• 1:33:24
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:33:24
  SPEAKER_02: there's no difference between me and anyone I've ever worked with in,
• 1:33:28
  in terms of their capacity or their ability to get where they
• 1:33:31
  want to get to.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_02: None.
• 1:33:34
  SPEAKER_01: So your book's not out yet.
• 1:33:40
  SPEAKER_01: In the absence of that,
• 1:33:41
  SPEAKER_01: what book,
• 1:33:42
  SPEAKER_01: is there one book you'd go,
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_01: this is a great book to start with.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_01: What would you recommend?
• 1:33:48
  SPEAKER_02: In the alcohol space, is it?
• 1:33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:33:54
  SPEAKER_02: I like, the one that comes to mind is This Naked Mind from Annie Grace.
• 1:34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's correct.
• 1:34:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
• 1:34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:34:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's a game changer, I think.
• 1:34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:34:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I find the, what is it?
• 1:34:13
  SPEAKER_01: This Naked Mind.
• 1:34:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 1:34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Quitlet.
• 1:34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Quitlet, yeah.
• 1:34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Quitlet, right?
• 1:34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I find some of that really helpful.
• 1:34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it's like, ugh.
• 1:34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it's like, wow.
• 1:34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the Naked Mind book, I thought was really well written and inspiring.
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should get her on the show.
• 1:34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:34:33
  SPEAKER_01: So listen, you've been very, very generous with your time.
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_01: We obviously will edit it down a little bit.
• 1:34:40
  Is there anything that I should have asked you or anything that
• 1:34:43
  we have talked
• 1:34:44
  SPEAKER_01: about in the past that you think I've really missed?
• 1:34:47
  SPEAKER_02: That'll come to me in 10 minutes time, not now though.
• 1:34:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, but it's been a great conversation.
• 1:34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so good to see you.
• 1:35:00
  If people wanted to get in touch with you to reach out to you
• 1:35:05
  in your capacity as a
• 1:35:06
  SPEAKER_01: coach,
• 1:35:06
  SPEAKER_01: how would they do that?
• 1:35:08
  SPEAKER_01: GaryAllen.ie GaryAllen.ie That's easy.
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_01: In the show notes, I'll put in your contact email.
• 1:35:16
  My email address is hello at GaryAllen.ie Oh,
• 1:35:18
  never get that out on there.
• 1:35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Ha ha ha
• 1:35:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm only joking.
• 1:35:26
  So in the show notes,
• 1:35:27
  I'll put the link and I'll put the name of that book.
• 1:35:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's been an absolute pleasure, as it always is, to see you.
• 1:35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you very much for the rest of the year.
• 1:35:41
  and I'm sure we'll touch base again in the not too distant
• 1:35:45
  future and we'll cross
• 1:35:46
  paths so it's a great conversation and it's always nice to see
• 1:35:53
  you thank you for
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_02: having me thanks Gary absolutely pleasure bye bye