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Love, Sex and Marriage BEHIND BARS: Women in love with KILLERS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: There are a lot of women in love with killers.
0:08
Speaker 1: They don't just fall for these guys very often, they
0:11
Speaker 1: go along with them in their crimes. They're they're brainwashed. Amazing.
0:16
Speaker 1: I don't understand how you pull that off. You look
0:19
Speaker 1: somebody in the eye and say something that's absolutely not true,
0:22
Speaker 1: and it's an extended light. And I'm not talking about
0:25
Speaker 1: just playing the field and dating other people, talking about
0:28
Speaker 1: being engaged in planning weddings. Wow, women are attracted to
0:35
Speaker 1: killers inmates. I don't get it. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,
0:50
Speaker 1: how did the relationship start? Wow? We went out and
0:53
Speaker 1: I was attracted to the plant. He had a very
0:56
Speaker 1: imploring mind and contemplated everything and ornett reading people, and
1:01
Speaker 1: I loved their conversation. She was very supportive of me
1:04
Speaker 1: in the beginning of my art and of my career.
1:07
Speaker 1: He was just wonderful, attentive, helpful, engaging. Did you see
1:11
Speaker 1: this long term that he could be the one? Yes?
1:15
Speaker 1: I did. This is bliss bliss. Well, I guess that's
1:18
Speaker 1: one way of putting it. That's NBC News Dateline reporter
1:21
Speaker 1: Andrea Canning. The so called killer fiance Patrick Frazy, who
1:27
Speaker 1: bludgeoned his fiance dead Kelsey Barrett with a baseball bat
1:33
Speaker 1: with their little baby girl in the next room. That's
1:36
Speaker 1: one of his many other women on the side. And
1:40
Speaker 1: that's not even the long time mistress Chrystal Lee Kenney. There,
1:44
Speaker 1: Rodeo Queen, you were hearing another girlfriend, Vanessa Curie, talk
1:48
Speaker 1: about her relationship with Patrick Frazy, the killer Fiance, that
1:54
Speaker 1: he cared about her art and her interest. But now
1:58
Speaker 1: take a listen to what she says thinks too. Attorney
2:01
Speaker 1: started playing head games with me. How did he make
2:04
Speaker 1: you feel about yourself with these so called head games. Well,
2:09
Speaker 1: he would took me out a pedestal and then he
2:11
Speaker 1: would tear me down. So he would listen to everything
2:14
Speaker 1: I said to him, and he would would be ruing
2:16
Speaker 1: kinds of and rual, helpful with advice, and then he
2:19
Speaker 1: would he would use everything I told him and just
2:21
Speaker 1: tear me down. But then he build me back up
2:25
Speaker 1: again and tell me that he wanted to marry me
2:28
Speaker 1: and that he saw me in a wedding dress and
2:30
Speaker 1: he wanted my ratinger to get measure till that we
2:33
Speaker 1: could get married. Why do you build me up just
2:35
Speaker 1: to let me down? Well, at least he didn't slug
2:38
Speaker 1: in the head with a baseball. Bet Vanessa, at least
2:41
Speaker 1: you've got that going for you. I'm Nancy Grace. This
2:44
Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You're
2:46
Speaker 1: hearing a little insight into why women are attracted to
2:52
Speaker 1: killers inmates. I don't get it, but they are with me.
2:57
Speaker 1: An all star panel. Daryl Cohen, renowned if It's attorney
3:00
Speaker 1: out of City of Atlanta, Steve Lampley, detective and author
3:05
Speaker 1: of Outside Your Door, Doctor Bethany Marshall, psycho alas joining
3:10
Speaker 1: me right now from Beverly Hills. Doctor Michelle Dupre, medical examiner,
3:15
Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, and Levi Paige Crime
3:20
Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter. First you, Levin. So, I've
3:24
Speaker 1: got a trail of tears left behind by Patrick Frazy
3:27
Speaker 1: Vanessa Curie. You just heard her talking about her love
3:30
Speaker 1: for him, how he was so into her and interested
3:33
Speaker 1: in her art. I don't think that's what he was
3:35
Speaker 1: interested in. But he was even talking about getting fitted
3:39
Speaker 1: for an engagement ring and a wedding dress. The duplicitest
3:43
Speaker 1: nature of Patrick Frazy is amazing. I don't understand how
3:47
Speaker 1: you pull that off. You look somebody in the eye
3:50
Speaker 1: and say something that's absolutely not true. And it's an
3:53
Speaker 1: extended light. And I'm not talking about just playing the
3:56
Speaker 1: field and dating other people, talking about being engaged in
4:00
Speaker 1: planning weddings. Wow, So what do we know about not
4:06
Speaker 1: only this woman Vanessa Curie, but also the Rodeo Queen,
4:10
Speaker 1: Crystal Lee Kenney. Well, Krista Lee Kenny. Nancy was a nurse.
4:15
Speaker 1: She had gotten into a relationship with Patrick Frazy while
4:19
Speaker 1: he was married to another woman in two thousand and six,
4:23
Speaker 1: and had a relationship with him off and on until
4:27
Speaker 1: the murder of Kelsey Barrett. Wait wait wait, wait, wait
4:29
Speaker 1: wait wait wait? Did you say he was married to
4:32
Speaker 1: another woman? You are correct, so he was married to
4:34
Speaker 1: another woman when he met the Rodeo Queen. See, I
4:37
Speaker 1: had my dates wrong. I thought he was with Kelsey
4:41
Speaker 1: at the time he met Krystal Lee Kenny. Okay, correct me.
4:44
Speaker 1: I want to hear all about it. Who's this woman
4:46
Speaker 1: he was married too. We don't know much about her, Nancy.
4:50
Speaker 1: We just know that he was married and that's when
4:52
Speaker 1: she got into a relationship. I don't blame her. Doctor
4:56
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. That's certainly not anything you want to
4:59
Speaker 1: brag about at the grocery story. I'd hide under the
5:01
Speaker 1: bed too if I had been married to Patrick. Frazy really,
5:07
Speaker 1: But you know what it tells me, Nancy is the
5:09
Speaker 1: mindset of these women who fall in love with killers.
5:12
Speaker 1: There was a very famous prison study where women were
5:17
Speaker 1: interviewed about the nature of the crimes the men had committed,
5:21
Speaker 1: men that they had fallen in love with who were
5:23
Speaker 1: behind bars, and most of the women claimed to not
5:27
Speaker 1: know the men's rap sheet. They didn't know. They refused
5:31
Speaker 1: to put their thoughts together about it. So the fact
5:34
Speaker 1: that you fell in love with him while he's married
5:36
Speaker 1: does not surprise me. It's a part of the whole
5:39
Speaker 1: psychology of these women who are prison mate groupies. John
5:43
Speaker 1: is sokin what you just said, because it seems akin
5:46
Speaker 1: to me about when you know your husband is abusive
5:50
Speaker 1: but you don't really want to confront it. You know,
5:54
Speaker 1: you suspect he's cheating, but you don't want to know.
5:57
Speaker 1: You don't like it if he yells at the children,
6:00
Speaker 1: but you turn a blind eye to it. To drinking,
6:04
Speaker 1: to drugging, tohurring, blah blah. You don't want to know
6:07
Speaker 1: because it messes up your worldview and talk about tipping
6:11
Speaker 1: the apple car. You know, if you confront it head on,
6:14
Speaker 1: you got to break the whole relationship up. You've got
6:17
Speaker 1: to move, you've got to get out of the house.
6:19
Speaker 1: It's just a big, big catastrophe. So maybe it's easier
6:24
Speaker 1: for some people to just turn a blind eye. Let's
6:26
Speaker 1: take it one step further to Darrel Cohen, renowned defense
6:29
Speaker 1: attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Daryl Cohen, how many
6:35
Speaker 1: times have well, you were a prosecutor along with me
6:39
Speaker 1: in inner City Atlanta, then you went to the dark
6:42
Speaker 1: side defense. How many times and on either side of
6:46
Speaker 1: the fence, Darrel, have you seen and typically it's a
6:50
Speaker 1: man who is the ringleader and women follow blindly along.
6:54
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's the other way, you know, you remember Sante
6:57
Speaker 1: and Kenneth Kimes, the mother son conteam that turned into killers.
7:00
Speaker 1: The son followed along behind the mom. But usually I
7:05
Speaker 1: see women following along in criminal behavior with the man.
7:09
Speaker 1: How many times have you seen it's like they don't
7:11
Speaker 1: know what's going on, But there's no way they don't
7:13
Speaker 1: know what's going on, Daryl Cohen, Well, I've seen it
7:15
Speaker 1: numerous times, Nancy, But there's an old adage that men
7:19
Speaker 1: marry women because they like the way they are, and
7:22
Speaker 1: women marry men because they want to change them. So
7:26
Speaker 1: I think, hold on just one second, Cohen. I know
7:29
Speaker 1: you got your JD, but I don't think you have
7:32
Speaker 1: your MD and psychiatry. But thank you for the armchair psychotherapy.
7:39
Speaker 1: Just FYI. Okay, Actually you're right about my husband. I
7:44
Speaker 1: love to try to change them. So far it hasn't worked,
7:48
Speaker 1: but I'm still working on it. Go ahead, please. Well,
7:51
Speaker 1: I mean that's just sort of part of it. I
7:53
Speaker 1: think the other part of it is these women have
7:56
Speaker 1: a very low self esteem and born in heaven. How
8:01
Speaker 1: can you actually with a straight face, so when someone
8:05
Speaker 1: is a killer as a matter of bay, and you
8:08
Speaker 1: have low self esteem? Seriously, okay, take a listen to
8:12
Speaker 1: what we know about the so called rodeo queen. Because
8:16
Speaker 1: she was a rodeo queen. She actually won the title
8:20
Speaker 1: Levi Page. I'll let you look that up, the title
8:23
Speaker 1: at a rodeo. She's a nurse, a mom married at
8:28
Speaker 1: one time Crystal Lee Kenney. Talk about low self esteem? Boy,
8:33
Speaker 1: you really bet off more than you can chew Darryll Cohen. Listen,
8:35
Speaker 1: Patrick Frazy is charged with killing Kelsey Barrett, his fiance
8:39
Speaker 1: and mother of their child. The Woodland Park mom was
8:41
Speaker 1: last seen on this Seafoy surveillance video on Thanksgiving Day.
8:44
Speaker 1: Prosecutors say Frazy blindfolded Kelsey to smell candles and guess
8:48
Speaker 1: the scent, and then beat her to death with a
8:50
Speaker 1: baseball bat and burned her body. Prosecutors told the jury
8:54
Speaker 1: this is a case of a cold, calculated manipulator, and
8:57
Speaker 1: while showing a photo of Freezy, called him the face
8:59
Speaker 1: of killer. We learned the trial hinges on cell phone records,
9:02
Speaker 1: trace amounts of blood, evidence, and testimony from Idaho nurse
9:05
Speaker 1: Crystal Lee Kenny without a body. Crystal is the state's
9:08
Speaker 1: star witness. She told investigators she tried to kill Kelsey
9:12
Speaker 1: three times at Patrick's request, but couldn't go through with it.
9:15
Speaker 1: She says that's when Frazie took matters into his own
9:17
Speaker 1: hands and she drove down from Idaho to clean up
9:19
Speaker 1: a bloody mess in Kelsey's apartment. The defense is doing
9:22
Speaker 1: everything it can to discredit Crystal and create reasonable doubts
9:26
Speaker 1: since much of the evidence is circumstantial. You're hearing ABC
9:28
Speaker 1: Denver seven reporter Jennifer Kovaleski, Daryl coh and low self
9:33
Speaker 1: esteem Bethanie Marshall, don't know his rap sheet? What he
9:39
Speaker 1: asked her to kill somebody three times? Cohen? What does
9:44
Speaker 1: that have to do with low self esteem? And then
9:47
Speaker 1: she comes back to the home, drives for four hours
9:52
Speaker 1: and cleans up a murder scene. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
10:17
Speaker 1: She was in love with them from a very young age.
10:20
Speaker 1: Patti and Joe Rockstall say one of their employees, who
10:23
Speaker 1: was Crystal Lee's best friend, told them that Lee and
10:26
Speaker 1: Patrick Frazie had a relationship that began just after high school.
10:31
Speaker 1: She was very vulnerable and I think she cared for
10:33
Speaker 1: him and he took advantage of that. He was her
10:36
Speaker 1: first love, I understand, and he had a hold on her.
10:38
Speaker 1: The Rockstalls say they were told Lee, a nurse from
10:41
Speaker 1: Idaho and mother, visited Frazie as recently as November, the
10:46
Speaker 1: month his fiance, Kelsey Barrett vanished. They claimed their employee
10:50
Speaker 1: says Frazy threatened Lee and she may have helped him
10:53
Speaker 1: dispose of evidence. Do you know what the threats were?
10:58
Speaker 1: Patrick told christ that little girls go missing off the
11:02
Speaker 1: playground all the time. Crystal was so scared. He was
11:06
Speaker 1: so angry that he said things that made Crystal think
11:09
Speaker 1: he had killed before. So of course she's going to
11:12
Speaker 1: be terrifying. Okay, so terrified she didn't go to police.
11:18
Speaker 1: You were hearing our friend Nikki Batista at CBS News
11:23
Speaker 1: she drove hours and hours to clean up a bloody,
11:27
Speaker 1: drenched crime scene, Daryl Cohen. And you're actually saying it's
11:32
Speaker 1: because of low self esteem. Did you say that? I'm
11:35
Speaker 1: also saying, Nancy, that she drakes him kool aid. Oh,
11:39
Speaker 1: now now you're changing your story the kool aid. I
11:42
Speaker 1: guess that would be that he claimed Kelsey had abused
11:46
Speaker 1: their baby. That is absolutely not true. Okay, Doctor Bethany Marshall,
11:50
Speaker 1: Psychoanas joining us out of Beverly Hills. What do you
11:53
Speaker 1: mean by low self esteem? And how can these women
11:55
Speaker 1: say their quote in love with killer? She had to
11:58
Speaker 1: know he's a killer. Well, these women also have a
12:02
Speaker 1: mixture of grandiosity. They feel that they are the only
12:05
Speaker 1: important one in the man's life. And one of the
12:08
Speaker 1: theories about why women fall in love with killers fits
12:13
Speaker 1: right in line with the rodeo queen's motivation is that
12:17
Speaker 1: these women fall in love with men who have brutal
12:21
Speaker 1: animosity towards other women. So they take pleasure in the
12:26
Speaker 1: fact that the man has raped a woman, tortured a woman,
12:29
Speaker 1: killed a woman. It's as if it's like a sick
12:32
Speaker 1: love triangle, and in loving the man who killed the
12:37
Speaker 1: other woman is like getting the love rival out of
12:39
Speaker 1: the way. So I think this was part of Crystal
12:43
Speaker 1: Lee's motivation, is that she grew to hate the other woman.
12:48
Speaker 1: She thought about killing the other woman, and when the
12:51
Speaker 1: other woman was finally blushed into death, she cleaned up
12:54
Speaker 1: the mess. She wanted that woman gone, She wanted her
12:57
Speaker 1: out of the way. Upset she got such a sweet
13:00
Speaker 1: deal to Stephen Lampley, detective author of Outside Your Door
13:05
Speaker 1: Steve Lampley, Crystal Lee Kenney, the rodeo queen slash mistress
13:10
Speaker 1: of killer fiance Patrick Fhrasey, says that she left clues
13:15
Speaker 1: behind for detectives to find. I find that very hard
13:19
Speaker 1: to believe. She wanted to detectives to figure it out
13:21
Speaker 1: as she sat there for weeks on end watching the
13:24
Speaker 1: six o'clock news. She could have just called him and
13:25
Speaker 1: told them. She claims she secretly left some blood for
13:30
Speaker 1: them to find, or a tooth of Kelsey's that was
13:34
Speaker 1: knocked out of her mouth when Frazy beat her in
13:36
Speaker 1: the head with a baseball bat with the baby next
13:39
Speaker 1: door by the way. So I find it really hard
13:42
Speaker 1: to believe her altruistic motives. Ye, Nancy, and I don't
13:45
Speaker 1: know that I do either. Is it possible, Yes, I
13:48
Speaker 1: don't know that. I didn't read that anywhere, and I
13:50
Speaker 1: didn't see that on any news broadcasts that they've found
13:52
Speaker 1: anything like that. But she wants to make herself look,
13:56
Speaker 1: as she said, altruistic. And I did leave this so
13:58
Speaker 1: they could find him, but I don't they ever found anything. Actually,
14:01
Speaker 1: they did find blood. The brother of Kelsey, Bareth, came
14:06
Speaker 1: over and he said, this must be what you're talking about, Steve.
14:10
Speaker 1: He said, he walked in. Everything looked fine and perfectly
14:13
Speaker 1: in order, just like Kelsey would have left it. And
14:15
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to get with you after
14:17
Speaker 1: our program, doctor Bethany, because I can't leave the house
14:20
Speaker 1: unless the kitchen is clean. There's nothing in the sink,
14:24
Speaker 1: the beds are made up. I'm sure there's something really
14:26
Speaker 1: wrong with that. But Kelsey left everything and needs a pen.
14:31
Speaker 1: Except there were some cinnamon rolls she had just made
14:35
Speaker 1: and they were sitting out on the kitchen counter uncovered,
14:40
Speaker 1: and everybody knows that a bread will dry up if
14:43
Speaker 1: you leave it out just sitting there in the air.
14:46
Speaker 1: That doesn't sound like her. But he sat down on
14:49
Speaker 1: the commode and he saw on the lip of the commode,
14:54
Speaker 1: is my understanding, some blood. He saw that. He immediately
14:57
Speaker 1: called police and they did find one of Kelsey's teeth.
15:04
Speaker 1: But at the very beginning, Steve, nobody could see anything.
15:07
Speaker 1: I mean, Chrystal Lee Kenney did a pretty good job
15:11
Speaker 1: to doctor Michelle Dupree joining me, medical examiner and author
15:15
Speaker 1: of an incredible piece of work, Homicide Investigation Field Guide.
15:21
Speaker 1: I think every single practicing criminal lawyer, what kind of
15:25
Speaker 1: force would it take to knock somebody's tooth out of
15:30
Speaker 1: their head with a baseball bat? And what would that
15:34
Speaker 1: do to the person's skull. I'm talking about the mom
15:38
Speaker 1: Kelsey barrat, and so that could be a devastating injury.
15:41
Speaker 1: The force that's needed to do that with the baseball
15:45
Speaker 1: bat is really significant. The damage to the skull could
15:50
Speaker 1: be devastating it, I mean it could be fatal. Actually,
15:53
Speaker 1: it could be such a skull fracture that it would
15:55
Speaker 1: actually be fatal. You know, I'm trying to figure out
15:57
Speaker 1: how much force that would require because people get hit
16:00
Speaker 1: in the head all the time. It happens in sports,
16:04
Speaker 1: it happens at work. But I'm trying to figure out
16:08
Speaker 1: the amount of force, how hard he had to swing,
16:11
Speaker 1: like he was sitting at home run on Kelsey said,
16:14
Speaker 1: take a listen to Denver CBS four reporter Rick Salinger.
16:17
Speaker 1: It was in her Woodland Park condominium that the mother,
16:20
Speaker 1: who worked as a pilot and flooded instructor, was believed murdered.
16:25
Speaker 1: Crystal Lee, the other party to this love triangle, testified
16:29
Speaker 1: this week that Patrick Frasey admitted killing Barrett with a
16:33
Speaker 1: baseball bat. Law enforcement agents searched Phrase's florescent ran several
16:38
Speaker 1: times and found three wooden baseball bats. They also located
16:43
Speaker 1: part of a tooth. It was beneath some plastic put
16:46
Speaker 1: over a spot where Crystallie said she believed Barrett's body
16:51
Speaker 1: was burned. Lee's father testified that his daughter was at
16:55
Speaker 1: her own home in Idaho on that day, where they
16:58
Speaker 1: had dinner. He said he is familiar with Phrasie's name
17:01
Speaker 1: from many years ago, saying I told her I didn't
17:05
Speaker 1: think that I liked him based on what she told
17:07
Speaker 1: me about him. Convincing the jurors that Crystallie told the
17:11
Speaker 1: truth is critical for prosecutors. Late this afternoon, a long
17:15
Speaker 1: time older friend of Phrasie testified that Phrasie was asking
17:20
Speaker 1: questions and dropping hints that Kelsey Bareth could disappear. Oh,
17:25
Speaker 1: dropping hints that Kelsey Bareth could disappear. And it makes
17:28
Speaker 1: me wonder to doctor Bethany Marshall, psycho Allen's joining me
17:32
Speaker 1: out of LA did he want her dad? Because, as
17:36
Speaker 1: you just heard, she was independent. She bought that town
17:39
Speaker 1: home all on her own with no help from him.
17:43
Speaker 1: She had learned and studied and gone to school to
17:45
Speaker 1: be a pilot. She was raising her child on her own.
17:50
Speaker 1: I doubt he paid a whole lot of child support.
17:52
Speaker 1: I mean, Kimani's living with his mom for Pete's sake.
17:54
Speaker 1: So reality, did he not want her alive because he
18:00
Speaker 1: didn't want her any more because she was independent, didn't
18:02
Speaker 1: Nadium Or You've got all these other women kind of
18:04
Speaker 1: hanging on his every word. Well, Nancy, you just put
18:07
Speaker 1: your finger on it, the two words child support. What
18:11
Speaker 1: is an independent woman going to do even if she
18:14
Speaker 1: had her own money, she had her pilot's license, she
18:17
Speaker 1: had a condo. But she is also smart and smart
18:22
Speaker 1: enough to get him to step up, pay child support
18:26
Speaker 1: and be a dad. None of these other women are
18:29
Speaker 1: requiring anything of him. They're hanging on him, They're doing
18:32
Speaker 1: whatever he wants them to do. The Rodeo Queen is
18:36
Speaker 1: even flirting with the idea of killing her love rival.
18:39
Speaker 1: These are all passive, passive women under his control. But
18:44
Speaker 1: the victim here actually was autonomous, and I wouldn't be
18:47
Speaker 1: surprised if she was either asking for child support, asking
18:51
Speaker 1: for him to visit the baby, asking for him to
18:54
Speaker 1: step up and be a man in some way, and
18:57
Speaker 1: if he wasn't used to doing that. Matt, he look
18:59
Speaker 1: with his mother, This is an overgrown baby. This is
19:02
Speaker 1: not a man who really wanted any kind of responsibility
19:05
Speaker 1: in his life. And speaking of his mother, not to
19:09
Speaker 1: blame her, but according to report, she stood by and
19:12
Speaker 1: watched while Kelsey Barris's body was burned. Of course she
19:16
Speaker 1: wasn't on trial. Don't know the truth of that, but hey,
19:18
Speaker 1: it's not just Christa Lee Kenny, the Rodeo Queen. There
19:21
Speaker 1: are a lot of women in love with killers. Crime
19:38
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace, I never had that before. You realize,
19:48
Speaker 1: with all due respect, that a lot of people think
19:50
Speaker 1: you're much Oh. Yes, I've heard it before many times.
19:53
Speaker 1: If I just say to you, why, what do you say?
19:56
Speaker 1: My answer to that is, I fell in love with him,
19:59
Speaker 1: and it's actively and it's quite a long journey that
20:04
Speaker 1: led me to there, and now I'm very happy. Have
20:08
Speaker 1: you ever had sex with Eric? No, your marriage has
20:11
Speaker 1: never been consummate. Now when you see Eric that you
20:15
Speaker 1: allowed to kission, we can hog and kiss on the
20:17
Speaker 1: way out and hold hands during the visit, and the
20:22
Speaker 1: holding of the hands during the visit is everything. I
20:26
Speaker 1: can't offer her most of the things that another husband
20:30
Speaker 1: can in terms of being with her physically and being
20:35
Speaker 1: able to to hold her in that sense. What I
20:38
Speaker 1: can offer her is unconditional and complete devotion and love.
20:43
Speaker 1: She is everything. Oh you're hearing our friends at ABC
20:47
Speaker 1: speaking to the wife of Eric Menandez, the killer who
20:53
Speaker 1: killed his own parents. That's Tammy Menendez, who says she's
20:57
Speaker 1: happy with Hanna holding Okay, well, take a listen to this.
21:03
Speaker 1: What's the problem? Twelve shots in the middle of Beverly
21:11
Speaker 1: Hills on a Sunday night, and no one calls. The
21:13
Speaker 1: police were waiting at the house, no one shows him,
21:17
Speaker 1: and I still can't believe it. I'm sitting on the
21:21
Speaker 1: stairs afterwards, thinking the police are going to be there
21:23
Speaker 1: in seconds. I think that rolling patroling, and people, many
21:26
Speaker 1: many people didn't hear the shots. Many neighbors came in
21:28
Speaker 1: and said they heard all these shots, but nobody called
21:31
Speaker 1: because I just figured this is Beverly Hills. This doesn't
21:34
Speaker 1: happen in Beverly Hills. Oh well it did. The Menendez
21:37
Speaker 1: brothers gunned down their parents. You're hearing not only the
21:40
Speaker 1: nim on one call, but a neighbor. Now to take
21:43
Speaker 1: a listen to what Tammy Menendez says about her relationship
21:49
Speaker 1: with Eric Menendez, how it began with a letter and
21:53
Speaker 1: developed from there. During the visit, there's no just holding
21:57
Speaker 1: hands and you can kiss when you come into the
21:58
Speaker 1: visiting room and and you leave. You know, is she crazy?
22:02
Speaker 1: Is she nuts? You know? I get all that, and
22:05
Speaker 1: so it has been a very emotional experience. The only
22:08
Speaker 1: one that supports me as my mother and his family
22:12
Speaker 1: is supportive. But other than that, it is very difficult.
22:16
Speaker 1: I guess it is very very difficult. You're hearing Timmy
22:19
Speaker 1: Menendez speaking to her friends at NBC Dateline. So okay,
22:22
Speaker 1: here's my next question, do you, doctor Bethany Marshall, because
22:25
Speaker 1: I really need to shrink on this one. He's convicted
22:28
Speaker 1: both both brothers are convicted of murdering their parents. Of course,
22:35
Speaker 1: they claimed the dad had molested him, although that was
22:38
Speaker 1: never proven. I don't know what their theory is about
22:42
Speaker 1: why they killed their mother, kitty, but I mean brutally
22:46
Speaker 1: gunned them down. I think the mom was trying to
22:48
Speaker 1: crawl away and they kept shooting her. How can you
22:52
Speaker 1: not know this? It was on every TV screen and
22:55
Speaker 1: on every newspaper, doctor Bethany Marshall, How can you turn
22:58
Speaker 1: away from that? It's called disavowal. It's when you see
23:02
Speaker 1: something but you choose to not put your thoughts together
23:05
Speaker 1: about it. A lot of these women who fall in
23:07
Speaker 1: love with these killers behind bars have a history of
23:11
Speaker 1: violence in their own family. I don't know if this
23:13
Speaker 1: woman did, but for some reason, because the parents love
23:17
Speaker 1: them and were violent with them. The idea of power, sex, love,
23:22
Speaker 1: and violence are all fused and confused. They're all melded
23:27
Speaker 1: together in some way. Now. I once interviewed a woman
23:29
Speaker 1: who was a part of a group of women who
23:31
Speaker 1: were prison groupies, and they would wait for the men
23:35
Speaker 1: to come out of prison and do something that they
23:37
Speaker 1: called touching down. And I said, so she with this woman,
23:42
Speaker 1: Missy said, well, when my boyfriend comes out, he's going
23:44
Speaker 1: to touch down. And I'm like, what's touching down? Well,
23:47
Speaker 1: it's the first time he has had sex since all
23:51
Speaker 1: the years he's been behind bars, as if he's not
23:54
Speaker 1: having sex behind bars, right, So there's this fantasy of
23:58
Speaker 1: the man being completely sexually faithful and not ever with
24:02
Speaker 1: anybody else because they're behind bars. So to Daryl Cohen's
24:06
Speaker 1: low self esteem part, some of these women feel important
24:10
Speaker 1: because they know where the man is all the time,
24:12
Speaker 1: and they have the fantasy of the man being pure,
24:15
Speaker 1: chaste and only available to them and a killer. But
24:19
Speaker 1: it goes beyond that. Daryl Cohen a former prosecutor now
24:22
Speaker 1: defense attorney throughout America based in Atlanta. Daryl Cohen, they
24:27
Speaker 1: don't just fall for these guys very often, they go
24:30
Speaker 1: along with them in their crimes. They're they're brain washed.
24:34
Speaker 1: It's beyond belief. They do what they want to do,
24:38
Speaker 1: they do what they think they should do because he
24:41
Speaker 1: has them and there's power. I mentioned kool aid before.
24:44
Speaker 1: This has happened before, it will continue to happen. There
24:47
Speaker 1: are certain women and certain men that have those characteristics
24:50
Speaker 1: and traits. I'm not a psychologist. I'm just a realist,
24:54
Speaker 1: and I see what happens. It makes no logical sense,
24:59
Speaker 1: but it is what it is, and we have to
25:01
Speaker 1: deal with it. And they deal with it. They not
25:03
Speaker 1: only go along with it, they're part of it. They're
25:06
Speaker 1: a meshed in the DNA. If you will, Levi Pays.
25:09
Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Emmy Memindez actually wrote
25:14
Speaker 1: a book and she claimed that she regretted marrying him,
25:19
Speaker 1: that it was hard the distance between her and her
25:22
Speaker 1: husband behind bars, and she played the victim. But as
25:26
Speaker 1: you said, Nancy, she had to know all of what
25:29
Speaker 1: he was accused of doing, he was convicted of doing.
25:32
Speaker 1: Why would she do this in the first place. There's
25:34
Speaker 1: actually a syndrome called Bonnie and Clyde syndrome where they
25:37
Speaker 1: actually get a thrill out of dating inmates because these
25:41
Speaker 1: people live such lonely lives. And I have read dozens
25:44
Speaker 1: of letters of people contacting various high profile inmates and
25:49
Speaker 1: a lot of them they do say in these letters
25:51
Speaker 1: that they write to these inmates, I'm lonely, I'm bored,
25:55
Speaker 1: and I'm writing you and I hope that you write back.
25:58
Speaker 1: And many of them say I've written you many times
26:00
Speaker 1: and you haven't written me back yet. And the common
26:03
Speaker 1: theme is they're lonely and they do this to get
26:06
Speaker 1: a thrill from dating behind bars or writing someone behind bars.
26:11
Speaker 1: It's accused of evil crimes. You know. That really leads
26:14
Speaker 1: me to another issue. Why these women are dating killers
26:17
Speaker 1: or inmates. I guess you can call it dating. To me,
26:19
Speaker 1: it's more of a glorified pinpal. But they choose to
26:23
Speaker 1: say that they're dating. You know, doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst
26:27
Speaker 1: joining us out of LA People do that all the time.
26:32
Speaker 1: Pretend they have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. They go, oh, no,
26:36
Speaker 1: that's not a Google image. Well that's my girlfriend in Canada,
26:39
Speaker 1: but there's not one. It's like these women really think
26:43
Speaker 1: they're having a relationship. You know, Nancy, that's a fascinating point.
26:47
Speaker 1: Out of all of the articles I've read, that is
26:50
Speaker 1: the one point no one has made. You're absolutely correct.
26:53
Speaker 1: They impet the relationship with more meaning than is really.
26:57
Speaker 1: They are just like stalkers, you know, the stalker. Imagine
27:00
Speaker 1: there's a real relationship with a victim, and there's no
27:03
Speaker 1: real relationship with a victim. I have this high level
27:06
Speaker 1: executive that came into therapy a few months ago. She
27:09
Speaker 1: makes four hundred thousand dollars a year, she's a single mom,
27:12
Speaker 1: she's successful. She came in ashamed and told me that
27:17
Speaker 1: she had just given ten thousand dollars to somebody online.
27:20
Speaker 1: She'd only known him for a month, a month, and
27:22
Speaker 1: she gave him ten thousand dollars within a month. She
27:26
Speaker 1: became convinced that she loved this man and that he
27:29
Speaker 1: loved her. And it's like I had to deprogram her
27:32
Speaker 1: from the relationship and this was just probably some person
27:35
Speaker 1: in Nigeria or Alaska somewhere, but she thought it was
27:38
Speaker 1: a real relationship. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Why would
27:55
Speaker 1: anyone marry America's most notorious serial killer. That's the intriguing
28:00
Speaker 1: question being raised by the new movie, in which zac
28:03
Speaker 1: Efron plays the monster Ted Bundy. The movie features scenes
28:06
Speaker 1: involving Bundy's wife, Carol Anne Boone, media is convicted his
28:11
Speaker 1: Dame Court. The real life. Bundy and Boone first became
28:14
Speaker 1: friends when they worked together in Washington State in nineteen
28:17
Speaker 1: seventy four. Bundy actually proposed to Carol Anne while she
28:20
Speaker 1: was testifying on his behalf at the penalty phase of
28:23
Speaker 1: his murder trial in Florida. That was all that was
28:30
Speaker 1: required for them to be officially married in the state
28:34
Speaker 1: of Florida. Author Stephen Mishow visited Bundy numerous times on
28:37
Speaker 1: death row. He says he helped arrange the surprising courtroom proposal,
28:41
Speaker 1: even procuring rings from Tiffany and a wedding outfit for Bundy.
28:45
Speaker 1: I went to the men's store and bought ted a
28:48
Speaker 1: pair of khakis and a bow tie and some argyle
28:51
Speaker 1: socks so he could look spiffy for the for the occasion.
28:54
Speaker 1: Bundy and Boone even had a daughter, the result of
28:57
Speaker 1: a moment of cloak and dagger intimacy. In Carol told
29:00
Speaker 1: me that there were two ways to have sex. One
29:05
Speaker 1: was to sneak into the bathroom and the other one
29:07
Speaker 1: was behind the water cooler. A recent Netflix documentary featured
29:11
Speaker 1: audio of her speaking about how the baby was conceived.
29:22
Speaker 1: Carol Anne Boone believed Bundy's claims of innocence for many years.
29:25
Speaker 1: That's our friend Jim Murray at Inside Edition talking about
29:29
Speaker 1: Carol and Boone marrying Ted Bundy. He proposed in his
29:33
Speaker 1: death penalty phase the serial killer. I mean, she was
29:38
Speaker 1: sitting in court, she heard all the evidence leave I page,
29:43
Speaker 1: and she still accepted the proposal. So, Nancy, this was
29:47
Speaker 1: the murder of kimberly Lay, a seventh grader that he
29:51
Speaker 1: was on trial for murdering. This was the penalty phase
29:55
Speaker 1: where he was going to be sentenced to death, and
29:58
Speaker 1: he called Carol to the stand and asked her to
30:02
Speaker 1: marry him. She said yes, and there was a public
30:04
Speaker 1: notary there and that's all that's needed in the state
30:08
Speaker 1: of Florida, and they were married. Coincidentally, it's the same
30:12
Speaker 1: day that the jury recommended that he get the death
30:14
Speaker 1: penalty for murdering that twelve year old girl. Okay, let
30:18
Speaker 1: me understand something. In front of the jury when he
30:20
Speaker 1: called she was called to the stand, he proposed, yes,
30:23
Speaker 1: you are correct. Oh, well apparently that didn't work. But
30:26
Speaker 1: I don't understand too, Doctor Bethany Marshall, what can a
30:29
Speaker 1: woman who pursues a relationship with an inmate or a
30:32
Speaker 1: killer behind bars really expect. What do they get out
30:35
Speaker 1: of it? Well, you know, if you're married to somebody
30:37
Speaker 1: behind bars, you know where they are all the time.
30:41
Speaker 1: You don't have to keep calling and texting and being
30:43
Speaker 1: afraid that they're out with another woman. You don't have
30:46
Speaker 1: to feel that they're dating behind your back. You don't
30:49
Speaker 1: have to wonder if they're on a business trip and
30:51
Speaker 1: they'll never come home. These women have the fantasy of
30:55
Speaker 1: the man being endlessly available to them. That's one part
30:58
Speaker 1: of it. As we keep saying, they refused to put
31:01
Speaker 1: their thoughts together about the nature of the crime. But
31:03
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy's wife, what it sounds like to me is
31:07
Speaker 1: that she kind of injected herself into the notoriety of
31:10
Speaker 1: the crime, like she thought this was exciting. She had
31:14
Speaker 1: her fifteen minutes of fame. He was in front of
31:18
Speaker 1: a courtroom, and maybe to her that was like being
31:21
Speaker 1: a star on stage, and that this was very emotionally
31:25
Speaker 1: gratifying because she felt he was famous, therefore she would
31:29
Speaker 1: be famous too too. Doctor Michelle de Pre, medical examiner,
31:32
Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. I guess that the
31:36
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy cases, you know, textbook for medical examiners in
31:41
Speaker 1: these cases women were strangled, they were raped, but not
31:45
Speaker 1: only that, they were abused post mornum. He would bathe
31:50
Speaker 1: their bodies in the bathtub, fix their hair and their makeup,
31:54
Speaker 1: dismember them, have sex with their body parts. Doctor Michelle,
32:01
Speaker 1: how often do you see abuse of a corpse financer?
32:05
Speaker 1: You sadly more often than you would think. I think
32:07
Speaker 1: I've probably had five or six cases, and that's really
32:11
Speaker 1: probably the average for most people who have been in
32:13
Speaker 1: the business for twenty or so years. Let me just
32:16
Speaker 1: guess where all of the victims of abuse of a
32:19
Speaker 1: corpse and that's typically would you agree, doctor Michelle dupree
32:23
Speaker 1: having sex with a dead body. Yes, usually it is,
32:26
Speaker 1: but it can also be other things. That can be
32:28
Speaker 1: inserting objects, it can be biding, it can be all
32:31
Speaker 1: sorts of other things. So that is typically what we
32:33
Speaker 1: think of, and we see a mixture. Well, you know,
32:37
Speaker 1: if you ask doctor Bethany Marshall, I can guarantee you
32:40
Speaker 1: she will say that biding a corpse and inserting things
32:43
Speaker 1: is you euphemistically put it. That's certainly putting perfume on
32:46
Speaker 1: the pig is sex related. Okay, But doctor Michelle dupre
32:49
Speaker 1: let me guess, Well, remember statism, missus sex drive. What
32:53
Speaker 1: statism is a perversion and it is related to the
32:56
Speaker 1: sex drive. So yes, it's a perverse sexual pleasure in
33:00
Speaker 1: biting a dead body, it's sexual. I always wait to
33:03
Speaker 1: see how many minutes you make it before you say
33:05
Speaker 1: sato mascissistic sex. But okay, this time, you know you
33:09
Speaker 1: almost made it through the whole hour to dodgor Michelle Duprie.
33:11
Speaker 1: All of the victims of abuse of corpse, who are they? Women?
33:15
Speaker 1: Not all of them, Nancy, the vast majority are, but
33:18
Speaker 1: men are also raped and are often abuse sexually. Afterwards, Well,
33:22
Speaker 1: what you're telling me that one of the five victims
33:25
Speaker 1: that you examined and there had been abuse of a course,
33:29
Speaker 1: one was a man. Yes, I am saying that. Okay,
33:31
Speaker 1: Well you just certainly taught me something I did not know,
33:34
Speaker 1: and I kind of wish I didn't know. So I
33:37
Speaker 1: can think about that tonight as I drift off to sleep.
33:39
Speaker 1: So you were hearing this woman who access a proposal
33:44
Speaker 1: on the witness stand, but she's not the only one.
33:48
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. For many who would look
33:51
Speaker 1: at Richard Ramier's in the eye and say he's the
33:55
Speaker 1: face of evil and yet you look at him and
33:59
Speaker 1: you see man of your dreams. Yes, who needs glasses here?
34:05
Speaker 1: I can't help the way the world looks at him.
34:08
Speaker 1: They don't know him the way I do. And the
34:11
Speaker 1: next day, Dorene walked down the aisle, albeit at a
34:14
Speaker 1: prison aisle, with her groom. Here's the couple and her
34:17
Speaker 1: response at being the new missus Richard Ramirez. It's feel wonderful.
34:22
Speaker 1: I'm so happy. I'm I'm so thrilled, very proud, and
34:28
Speaker 1: a little belief that that the bulk of the day
34:31
Speaker 1: is over and just hopefully I can enjoy the rest
34:34
Speaker 1: of my day in peace with Richard's family and think
34:39
Speaker 1: about the importance of what happened today. Okay, she sounds
34:43
Speaker 1: like she's highly sedated, but sadly she's not. That's k
34:47
Speaker 1: r O and TV four reporter Vicky Levicus talking to
34:52
Speaker 1: Dorene Leoi, who married the night stalker Richard Ramirez. Stephen Lampley,
34:58
Speaker 1: detective author of Outside Your Door. He's Richard Ramirez. He's
35:02
Speaker 1: one of America's most painless serial killers. He had a
35:05
Speaker 1: relatively long killing spree. And by the way, this was,
35:08
Speaker 1: as my understanding, this was not his first wife in prison.
35:11
Speaker 1: By the way, Oh dear Lord in heaven, they attract
35:15
Speaker 1: more than one woman behind bars, you know, doctor Bethany Marshall,
35:20
Speaker 1: I really need a shrink right now now. According to reports,
35:24
Speaker 1: killer dad Chris Watts gets letters and even risque photos
35:27
Speaker 1: behind bars from women. What do you make of these
35:30
Speaker 1: women sending love letters? And do you think inmates should
35:33
Speaker 1: be allowed to receive them? Nancy, I do not think
35:36
Speaker 1: inmates should be allowed to receive them because to me,
35:39
Speaker 1: it's like the men are still preying on society from
35:42
Speaker 1: behind bars. But we keep thinking about why where a
35:46
Speaker 1: woman's fall in love with a killer behind bars? And
35:50
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, they confuse power, sex and love.
35:55
Speaker 1: The fact that the guy is aggressive actually feels like
35:58
Speaker 1: a form of love. Sometimes. In the case of Richard Ramirez,
36:02
Speaker 1: one of the wives had a great deal of animosity
36:05
Speaker 1: and aggression towards women, so in this case she took
36:09
Speaker 1: secret pleasure in the crimes. There's the fantasy that you
36:13
Speaker 1: always know where the man is, that he's available, And
36:15
Speaker 1: there's also this common thread amongst all women who fall
36:19
Speaker 1: in love with inmates that the man is going to
36:21
Speaker 1: be sexually faithful, that just because of the man's behind
36:25
Speaker 1: bars means he's not masturbating, he's not having sex with
36:29
Speaker 1: other men, he's not engaging in sexual activity. He's just
36:33
Speaker 1: being chased and available to the woman. And it is
36:36
Speaker 1: a very very disturbing missappraisal of the situation. But that's
36:40
Speaker 1: how most of these prison groupies feel. Dude, Darrell Cohen,
36:45
Speaker 1: you and I have been in so many jails in
36:47
Speaker 1: and out. How do they manage to get conjugal visits?
36:51
Speaker 1: They're illegal in mess jails, Nancy, as soon as that
36:55
Speaker 1: was being spoken about, I was thinking myself behind the
36:58
Speaker 1: watercooler in the bathroom. I don't know. I have never
37:02
Speaker 1: been able to figure that out because normally the prison
37:06
Speaker 1: guards are much more attentive, especially towards someone who has
37:10
Speaker 1: been convicted of murder. So I don't know, but I
37:13
Speaker 1: guess where there's a will, there's a way. And on
37:16
Speaker 1: that highly scholarly comment, since there's really no explanation, I
37:23
Speaker 1: will take my leave because I am a JD, not
37:27
Speaker 1: an MD with a degree in psychiatry. Okay, so the
37:31
Speaker 1: beat goes out. And remember it's not just men. You
37:34
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe all the love letters in marriage proposals that
37:36
Speaker 1: Jody Airis gets behind bars, okay, Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye, Frank,