Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1195 - Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About ASD, ADHD and Executive Function With Andrew Guastella

Transcript

#1195 - Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About ASD, ADHD and Executive Function With Andrew Guastella · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: What is autism? What is executive function? What is a disorder?
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Are we supposed to be talking about disorders when it
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: comes to conversations around neuro developmental challenges, neurodiversity, neurodivergence. I
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: am so excited for my conversation today because it is
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: going to answer so many questions that you have about autism,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: adhd neurodiversity more generally. Oh my goodness, let's get into it.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. My name
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Coulson. This is where we give you
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I wish Kylie could be with me today, Unfortunately she
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: has other things that are going on with our six daughders.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Therefore it's me, but I'm joined by somebody who has
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: taken the world by storm academically over the last couple
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: of months with a brand new paper that was published
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: all about autism and executive function. If neurodiversity and neurodivergence
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: are common discussion points in your home, this is one
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: you don't want to miss. Professor Adam Guastella is a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: leading clinical psychologist and researcher at the Brain and Mind
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Center at the very prestigious University of Sydney, one of
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: those Sandstone Universities, groundbreaking work for decades now in research.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: He's also featured as the expert on the ABCTV show
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Employable Me, which was about helping autistic people find gainful
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: and valuable and meaningful and purposeful employment. He's working on
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: providing support and tools for families with neurodevelopmental needs. He's
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: a dad to three boys and he joins me now
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: from his office at the University of Sydney. Adam, I'm
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: so excited that you're on the Happy Families podcast today.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with me.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Hi Justin, I'm so glad to be here. Adam.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Let's start with a conversation about you study autism.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I trained as a psychologist, and for
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: anyone that's trained as a psychologist, they'll know that they
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: barely got any training in this autism field. You know,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: I think my memory is I got two hours of
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: a lecture on fairly basic information about autism and other
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: neurodevelopmental conditions. And so what happened for me is I
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: actually started an anxiety doing a lot of different anxiety treatments,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: and we used to get people come into the anxiety
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: programs and they'd benefit from some things, but they really
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: weren't benefiting from a lot of parts of the program.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: What's going on here? I started realizing there was different
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: needs for this group of people that were coming in,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: and we started understanding that they were people that were
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: meeting the criteria for autism. Actually they weren't often undiagnosed.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: They might add so they're becoming in really significant problems
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: and so you know, from there, well, we've got to
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: support this group in a different way. And there was
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: nothing available. There was no evidence for what works. There
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: was no health service providing support, and so that's where
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: it really started. I went, well, actually, we've got to
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: develop the evidence for how to provide support, and that
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: started back in two thousand and eight and we've been
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: continuing ever since.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: What is autism?
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a good question. It's a controversial one on
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: mine ad there's a breadth in the way that we
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: define autism, but the crux of it is really a
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: difficulty in navigating social situations in terms of the core
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: criteria and then having a systematizing or really black and
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: white way of thinking about the world and getting stuck
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: in routines. That's sort of how the criteria is shaped
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: at the moment.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, so let me restate that I'm going to use
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: the term disorder. I know it's a provocative term, but
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: for just now, I use the term disorder. It's a
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: disordered way of engaging socially. It's a fixed and rigid
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: way of sticking with routines or demanding routine where it
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't exist. And sorry, there was a third element that
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I that's just escaped me. What was the third element?
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: It's the black and white. It's it's not what we
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: call concrete thinking. It's sort of like the seeing things
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: in quite rigid ways.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, you didn't mention anything about intellect cognitive capacity, and
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: this is another area that can be quite provocative. My
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: understanding is that there is no correlation between autism and
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: intellectual capacity. That it's very much about rigidity and thinking
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: and struggling in social situations.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: You said disordered ways of interacting social I know you're
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: being provocative, but that's where the debate is right, because
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: the debate is is it about they've got a disordered
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: way of interacting or that there's just a different way
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: of interacting that, if we can support or match, is
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: not really disordered, but just different. So that's an active
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: debate in the field right now. But to go back
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: to your actual question, think about it as a condition
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: that's associated with changes in learning and behavior, that affects
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: socialization and the way we interpret information in their world.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: The Oxford University Press describes a disorder as an illness
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: or condition that disrupts normal physical or mental functions. You've
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: highlighted this is a provocative thing to anyone who is
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: dealing with autism. And I say dealing with because there
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: is disruption socially, and there is disruption around that rigidity
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: of thinking. The affirmative approach, the affirmation approach is very
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: much where the conversation is right now. Why is this
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: so provocative? It seems to me. And granted I'm not
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: somebody who's been trained in it, and I also have
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: all the compassion and sympathy in the world here, so
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to I'm really not trying to steal
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: the pot. I know anyone who's dealing with autism in
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: their families right now hating me, But I'm asking the
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: question because Grandpa Joe or Artie Cynthia at Christmas, they're
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: not thinking the way the mum who's grappling with this
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: is thinking. They're not thinking the way the person who's
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: leading the autism organization is thinking. They're saying, but you've
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: got a nine year old who has a condition that's
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: disrupting their normal physical or mental functions. They're saying, this
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: is a disorder.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: So, as provocative as it is, I'm taking that side
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: because I want you to be able to explain why
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: this has turned into this big debate. Why is this
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: such a big debate.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: So I think it's important to acknowledge the history, and
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: the history is that we need funding mechanisms to provide
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: support in different you know, different governments rely on a
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: medical model to provide funding to a family for needs, right,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: and so that is often under the label of a disorder.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: And that's where private health insurance and like all comes
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: into it. And so the term disorder is actually very
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: very important for accessing health care. The history in this
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: space really is that it's not all about changing the child,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: which the term disorder sort of insinuates that it's something
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: we have to fix in a child to get optimal
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: health outcomes. And the answer is certainly not that right.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: It's about actually going what in the environment needs to
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: change to make the environment easier to learn from, What
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: in the environment needs to change to encourage more cohesive
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: and more supportive interactions with people and better friendships, and
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: also what in the environment needs to change so that
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: people can succeed in achieving the goals they want to achieve.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: And so the focus is very much on helping the individual,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: but also recognizing that the environment can change in a
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: huge way as well. And related to that, when people
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: have done studies and change environments to be more what
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: we term inclusive to support children and adults with autism
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: and other neurodevelopmental needs, those environments are really good for everyone,
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: you know, all of a sudden, we start seeing improvements
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: in learning outcomes for all the kids in the class,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: not just the kids that have a neurodevelopmental condition. So
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: then the question becomes, are we dealing with poor environments
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: that are unnecessarily difficult to learn from mixed with differences
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: in learning that make things result in problems? And I'll
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: give you I'll give you some really practical examples in
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: our clinic, we regularly deal with young adults that come
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: to us they unable to find work, that they might
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: be failing at university, that they might be really unhappy
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: in their jobs, and we'll explore what's going on for
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: them in the university system. We know that it can
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: be really sporadic in terms of the amount of work
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: that's required and self driven, and a lot of the
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: assessments can be really hard to navigate for people, and
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: so it's not hard for an assessment to get missed
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: here or there. You know, that's a minute they start
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: failing at one thing that it starts piling up, but
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: it's before they know it, they're starting to fail at
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: all their subjects.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Busy anxiety that you were talking about before.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: And anxiety starts kicking in, depresion starts kicking in. And
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: so the system and the way that say learning about
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: how to complete a course at university doesn't suit or
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: it doesn't promote often successful outcomes for people. And so
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: we've taken some of these people that have reported really
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: poor outcomes and then put them or not they've won
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: jobs themselves, but put them into roles where supports exist
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: and where their needs are being met and that maybe
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: the structures are clearer, maybe the goals are more obvious,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: maybe the tasks are more suited to what their skills are,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: and what do we find. What we find frequently that
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: when you do that, people succeed, and succeed outrageously well.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: So we've had people that have failed at university to
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: being in the top ten of early graduates in a
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: multinational company for the year and getting to meet the CEO.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Or people that were absolutely miserable because they got the
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: diagnosis of autism in the workplace, put them in the
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: back office and felt like that and they felt like
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: they were being mistreated, and they were to then becoming
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: the head of diversity inclusion in a major company or
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: getting a job in government representing the needs of people
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: in the NDIS. And the point is that it's not
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: necessarily that these people have a disorder that stops them
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: from being able to learn or being able to succeed.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: But it's also about being able to match up what
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: their goals are with the environment so that they can
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: flourish and succeed in the future. And that's partly why
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: there's been a shift in narrative.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Adam my sense is that what you've said is going
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: to give so many parents so much hope. I'm getting
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: goosebumps on my arms. Listen to what you're describing him.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: One of my sons has ADHD and when he was
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: in year two, the strategy the teacher applied for him
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: when he wasn't able to sit still and listen in
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: the class was to face a blank wall at the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: back of the room while she taught. Right, So her
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: strategy was to get him out of the class, and
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: so he was being if you look less intruptive to
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: face a brick wall. The idea there is his being
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: disruptive and if he wants to learn, he needs to
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: sit in the class appropriately and face me appropriately. And
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: if he doesn't do that, he's face in the brick wall. Right,
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: how much does he learn when when he does that?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: What does he learn about his role in the classroom
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: when that happens to him, What does it will he
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: learn about his worth as a child? Because he's got
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: the problem And so you know what we quickly did
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: when that started to unfold was to get him into
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: an environment where the right supports were put in place
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: that you know, he was the distractions in the classroom
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: were reduced. That perhaps he was given you know, appropriate
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: support and learning support on a regular basis to be
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: able to take in the information and the anxiety in
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: the classroom reduced. So I guess what I'm just that's
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: sort of the point of why we don't necessarily just
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: talk about disorders.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: As you describe that. It sits really neatly with the
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: psychological theory that underpins most of my research, most of
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: my work, which is that when children's basic psychological needs
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: are supported, they thrive. That is, when they feel competent
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: and capable, when they have good relationships and they have
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: a sense of control. And your son's experience much like
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: my youngest daughter similar kinds of challenges. We homeschool her
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: now because we just found that the school environment was
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: not working and where fortunately in the position where that
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: was an option for us, there was just too much
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: disruption in her life, relationship with the teacher, relationship with
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: other students, explosive, not working, not feeling competent because I always
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: getting in trouble, and also being controlled so much. I
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: love the way that you've mapped that out and the
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: hope that's there for parents. Last provocation before we step
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: into what I think parents are really going to what
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I know about as it applies to their own children.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I hear this with some consistency, and it's certainly something
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: that I've thought of as well. I went to school
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, graduated in the early nineteen nineties.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: My experience with school was that I don't I don't
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: ever remember ever coming across kids with autism. Maybe ADHD
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: because we just didn't talk about it back then, but
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: I don't remember ever coming across kids with these neurodevelopmental
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: needs conditions, disorders, whatever word people feel most comfortable or
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable with. I try to be sensitive here. I just
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: don't remember anyone with autism in the eighties and nineties.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Has something changed? And if so, what because because a
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: lot of a lot of the arties and uncles and
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: grandparents are looking at parents today and saying, well, it's
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: dodgy parenting, it's faulty, you're the issue here.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that is back to this idea
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: that there's a problem that needs to be fixed and
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: someone's caused that problem. And I think that's really unhelpful
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: because you know, we know that development of delays and conditions,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: it's not about parenting in general. And so you know,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: there's a very clear reason why. When I started training
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: as a psychologist in the late nineties early two thousands,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: the rate of autism was about one in one hundred
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: and something one hundred and fifty. So that means in
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: the average year level there might be one person that
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: was being diagnosed. Those kids back then would never have
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: been diagnosed because the criteria didn't meet that criteria. A
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: lot of the kids back then needed to have intellectual disability,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: quite severe intelectrivisibility to be diagnosed. And secondly, a lot
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: of those kids I've reflected on that myself and I
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: can think about a lot of the kids in my
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: year level that probably would have met criteria for autism
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: but never received an assessment, never received any support. And
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: it's fine to go, well, okay, well, if they didn't
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: receive support back then, why should we give them support now?
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Why not just let them be whatever they be? And
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: the answer to that is pretty simple. It's that when
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: you don't provide the right support, when you don't give
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: people the needs that they have, then you get poor outcomes.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: We know that autistic people and people with ADHD have
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: enormously high rates of bullying and schools enormously high rates.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: They are victims over and over and over again, and
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: it's a consistent story of trauma and dislike of schools
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: in regards to their peers for a lot of young people.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: And so we also know that under achievement, particularly in
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: those later years, is very very common in comparison to
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: their cognitive ability. When you do an IQ test or
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: the related things to IQ, you may say this is
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the time of HSC score or whatever school you know
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: you would predict, and we know that people on the
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: spectrum will often get much lower scores than that. And
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: it's not about their learning capacity of their intelligence. It's
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: about what supports they had at school to be able
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: to learn and the types of things I said earlier.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: And so if we're happy for people not to succeed
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: and fulfill their potential, if we're happy for people to
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: be excluded and to be bullied in our schools, and
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: we're happy for people to underperform and then to have
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: what is often lifelong self esteem issues and difficulties then
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: moving on into other fields, then yes we should leave
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: things the way they are. But if we want a
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: different system with greater awareness, a greater knowledge of what
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: differences people have, what needs they have. We should develop
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: schools and learning opportunities that give people the best chance
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: at succeeding in life. And I think when granddad's talking
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: about it, Granddad's talking about a medical model that goes,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: there's something wrong with your child, you've got to fix it.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: We're talking about a model now which is all about
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: we just want the best doubt coomes for your children.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: You know, we want to make sure they've got the
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: right supports in place. And if we do it for
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: the kids that really need it, I bet you the
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: other kids are also going to benefit. And that's the
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: model that we're talking about.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Professor Gustela is at the University of Sydney and joins
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: me on the Happy Families podcast today. My sense a
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: metaphor has sprung to mind as you've been describing this.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I could listen to your talk all day, and that
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: is that if you get a seed and put it
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: in the soil and the seed doesn't grow, do you
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: blame the seed? And most gardeners would say, well, no,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: you don't blame the seed. You look at the environment.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: How much sunlight's there, what's the temperature, what's the nutritional
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: quality of the soil, how much water has been put
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: into the soil. In other words, you adapt the environment
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: to help the seed to grow. Would that metaphor suit
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: where you're going here?
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: That metaphor absolutely does. And I think it's even more
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: charged if you say, would you blame a three year
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: old for anything? Would you blame a five year old
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: for all the things? You know, we sometimes do blame
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: them for I mean, these are children that need support.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Adam. A few months ago, you published a paper that
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: blew up. It caught my attention. It's pretty academic, it's
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: pretty full on, but as simply as we can, I
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: want to dissect a couple of things from it and
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: talk specifically about this thing called executive function. My very
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: brief summary of the paper is that you've identified that
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: across neuro developmental needs, across the great neurodiversity that exists
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: on the planet with young people, one of the factors
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: that brings them together is an issue with executive function.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: That is, executive function for orartistic kids, children with ADHD diagnosis,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: people who meet the criteria in the DSM for these
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: neurodevelopmental challenges and needs. Executive function seems to be right
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: at the core of it.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: I know that that's a massive oversimplification of your research,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: but assuming that that's sufficient for us to move forward,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: can we just talk a bit about what executive function
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: is and why parents should care about it in their kids.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Families will spend a long time seeking a diagnosis sake
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: so they can get the right care. Well that's the point.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to get the care, want to get
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the funding, want to know what's going on because the
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: environment's not working for that's that's right.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: However, to get a diagnosis in Australia right now, it's
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: probably going to cost you at least three thousand dollars
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: or it's.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Probably going to and take two years and take.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: More than two years, right and then if you get
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: the autism diagnosis, you'll get a list of recommendations based
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: on the autism strategy and based on blah blah blah blah,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: and and you'll get autism specific services. If your child
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: gets a Turet's diagnosis, they're not going to get anything
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: like the sorts of services you get for autism, and
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: they're going to get a much smaller set of recommendations.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: And they get nothing for ADHD.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: You've got these silos that have been generated. Now the
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: big problem we have in this field is why have
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: we generated these silos? Why? I mean, we look at
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: autism and at least eighty percent of kids with autism
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: have another neurodevelopmental condition like ADHD. We know the overlaps
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: about sixty percent, right, so we can just say most
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: kids with autism have ADHD. A lot of kids with autism,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: We'll also have turets, a lot of kids with autism.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: We'll also have language and learning disorders like dyslexia. So
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: like there's a lot of overlap, but we don't talk
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: about the overlap. We just talk about an individual diagnosis
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: and families spend a lot of money getting that one diagnosis.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: So that's the background, and what we wanted to do
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: was go, well, hang on, let's just take something like
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: executive function. Is there actually anything really unique about executive
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: function delays it's specific to autism versus other developmental conditions,
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: And what do we mean by executive function? Well, it's
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: executive function skills are some of the most important skills
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: for development. So it's about planning. It's about manipulating something
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: in your mind and then trying to come up with
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: a solution. It's about inhibiting your impulsive responses so that
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: you know, you don't just do what your emotions tell
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: you to do. You do things that are actually good
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: for yourself and for your family. So it's these sort
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: of higher level skills that regulate both problem solving and
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: impulse control and what we call cognitive flexibility, those sorts
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: of things. And so what we did is we looked
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: at every single study that compared two or more developmental
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: conditions since nineteen eighty, since autism first came into the manual,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: and other disorders have come in and been around as well.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: And what we found, in a nutshell was the differences
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: were so miniscule that it just wasn't worth considering as
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: a you know, the differences were largely there were no differences,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: and so we should be thinking about executive function, delays
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: and needs in a trends diagnostic wade a way which
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: affects all kids with your own developmental conditions. Doesn't matter
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: what the diagnosis is. Now, why is that important? Let
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: me go back to the first bit, which is parents
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: are spending at least two years waiting for a diagnoses
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: of autism. Forget about that, I mean, don't forget about it.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: We need we still need to do that, right, But
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: how about when you first got concerned, you start doing
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: some executive function assessments and other things that we think
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: you can do, and start putting supports in place straight away,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: and the things that might actually help schools to manage,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: you know, rather than you know, trying to split things
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: up with all the different diagnoses. What are the fundamental
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: things that we need to do to support kids and families?
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Just trying to score the importance of this research that
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: you've done at them. It was published in Nature Human Behavior,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: which is one of the most prestigious clinical journals globally
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: and for people who are not familiar with the term,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: this was a meta analysis. So you've reviewed, as you said,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: all of the papers that have been written. In the end,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: you've synthesized more than one hundred and eighty studies in
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: this area into one condensed package. The overall picture says this,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: and again my far too short summary is the overall
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: situation is that these neuro developmental conditions are very much
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: about executive function, the ability to inhibit, the ability to plan,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: the ability to hold onto one thing in your mind
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: while working on another thing, the ability to switch tasks.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, you think about ADHD and the monotasking it
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: kin gets hyper fixated and then the teacher says, no,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I want you to stop. It's time to do that
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: over there, and the child just goes berserk because like, no, no, no, no,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: it took me an hour to get here, and now
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: I'm here and I'm in this and you want me
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: to change, like it's so hard for them. And your
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: research essentially found that executive function challenges appearance seems somewhat
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: consistent across, well almost entirely consistent across the different near
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: developmental conditions. So here's my question for you. Does that mean?
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, I can imagine a parent who's sitting there going, well,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: I got the autism diagnosis and I also got the
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: ADHD diagnosis. But does this essentially mean that ADHD and
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: autism are in some ways the same thing? Like, what
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: does this mean for a parent who's trying to understand
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: the child's diagnosis.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: We're getting a better understanding that there are many common
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: factors underpind All neurodevelopmental conditions. Say yes, that there's going
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: to be lot If your child has autism, not only
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: are they greater risk of getting a much greater, much,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: much greater risk of getting of being diagnosed with ADHD,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: but they're also going to have needs that are very
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: similar to those with ad HD, even if they don't
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: meet the diagnostic criteria. The fundamental thing is there are
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: going to be lots of fundamental needs and cut across
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: all neurodevelopmental conditions that we need to start to support
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: in a more integrated way. But at a high level,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that autism and ADHD are the same thing.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: There are things that differentiate, and there are important things
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: that separate them out. But I don't think our science
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: is sophisticated enough right now to be able to say
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: this is what's common, and these are the really unique things,
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: and this is what really matters. That's you know, what
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: really matters for what we need to do to those
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: kids in terms of providing support to give them the
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: best opportunity. And I think it's going to be largely
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff we do at an intervention
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: level is like trans diagnostic sort of stuff. It's all
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: about getting structures and supports in place, and you know,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: learning environments in the right way, getting them potentially the
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: right medications. It's stuff that doesn't need necessarily need to
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: be silent for a specific diagnosis.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Professor Gustela is at the University of Sydney and joins
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: me on the Happy Families podcast today. You've brought up
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: medication provocative question in my social media reels lately, a
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: couple of things have come up. I think it has
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: a lot to do with the fact that RFK Jr.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: May be coming into the United States to look after
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: health and so on. And I've had a few reels
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: come up that have been really pushing hard at the
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: idea that autism and this has been around for such
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: a long time. Autism is called cause by vaccines, and
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: specifically those reels where somebody will say, I've got twins.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: They were vaccinated. One of them started to change their
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: behavior a short time later, the other one didn't. One
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: of them has an autism diagnosis, the other one doesn't.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: The question is twofold. Therefore, what can we say about
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: vaccines and other environmental factors and neurodevelopmental conditions like autism
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: and Secondly, where does autism come from?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, So the first question is pretty easy to answer,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: and it's easy to answer because there's been a lot
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: of scientific studies conducted on the role of vaccines and
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: potentially causing autism, and even to the point where studies
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: have looked at the specific properties of the contents of
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: the vaccines, such as mercury, to try and understand if
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: there's any link associated with the specific properties of vaccines
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: and the development of autism. Okay, now there's one thing
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: we can't get away from. The one thing we can't
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: get away from is autism is often first identified at
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: the age of two, and vaccines that we're talking about
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: are often given to children at the age of two
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: because that's what that's the timeline that they're given. Right.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: So there is this incidental, if you like, interaction where
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: parents will often report their child receiving a vaccine and
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: at some point in time after that noticing autism symptoms,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: and that's sort of that relationship between the two is
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: what's partly generated a lot of the worry for parents.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: But all these scientific studies have shown very very clearly
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: that none of the ingredients are associated with the development
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: of autism, and like there's been such an so many
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: different ways, whether you look at countries that didn't have
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: vaccines and then introduced vaccines and they've looked at the
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: autism rate, or you've had laboratory studies where they've massively
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: increased the ingredients of those specific ingredients to see how
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: it affects development in animals. For those studies, we know
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: that there's just no relationship there. And we can say
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: that with a really strong belief because the science around this.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Everyone's been so worried about it and there's been so
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: much hys theory about it for so long, the science
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: around is really quite robust. The most likely reason that
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: we have these constant conversations is because of a the
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: association and then B because there is a lot of
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: vaccines and we saw it with the COVID vaccines. They
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: often get caught up into narratives around government control or
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: big farmer and so there's a lot of suspicion around
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: this idea of control and vaccine. So I think it's
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: just going to be an internal conversation that goes on
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: while people remain suspicious about these things.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: So where do you think that it does come from.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: The heritability of it is the most significant factor, so
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: that means largely genetics. We know also, just going back
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: to my trends diagnostic pedal, is that the genetics may
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: not necessarily be specific to autism, but if you are
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: autistic or your parents are autistic, that makes you more
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: susceptible to a range of neurodevelopmental conditions. But it's certainly
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: genetics play the biggest factor. The rest of it is associational,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: and we think that, you know, the best science at
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: the moment is suggesting, well, maybe there are things that
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: can say you've got vulnerabilities there. Maybe there are things
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: that can push you over the edge of that vulnerability
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: to then lead you into develop the diagnosis. But you
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: have to have that significant vulnerability there, and then there's
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of debate around what those things could be.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Whether nutrition plays a part, whether living and being around
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: pollution might play a part. You know, stress might play
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: a role. There's a whole range of factors which we
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: can't they're really hard to pull apart causily, but we
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: think if they do play a role, it is about
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: pushing development over a threshold where there was that genetic
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: vulnerability to begin with, and I don't think there's any
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: evidence that autism would develop without that genetic vulnerability in
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: the first place.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Following through on this executive function theme, what specific strategies
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: can parents use to support a child with executive function
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: challenges at home?
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Life is busy for many many families, and it can
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: get chaotic very very quickly. And so for people without
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: executive function delays, they might be able to navigate all
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: the shifting needs, the different demands you know, reading and
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: just give an example, reading one thing and listening to another,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: remembering and recalling information, need to make the bed, need
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: to pack my lunch, so many different things going on once.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Some people can navigate all that and get through. But
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: if you want to make life simple, structure, structure, structure, Yeah,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: so kids, particularly with executive days, really really better effort
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: from lots of structure, So be really directive, have reminders,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: lots of tip sheets, and along with that, as hard
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: as it can be, the more emotional people get, the
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: more anxious people get, the more executive function becomes even harder.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: So you've just got it's a calm environment, lots of structure,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: and then what the evidence shows is then supports around learning,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: So they might need not so much because they're not
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: non intelligent, because often it's not about intelligence. Maybe it's
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: about making sense of the information and structuring it. How
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: do I go, I have a lot of kids, how
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: do I even start an assignment? You know, Like I know,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I can almost envisage what the assignment's got to look like,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: but I just don't know what I need to do
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: to start it and put it together. So it's often
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: having a tutor or one or a parent to really
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: sit down and assist them just to put the things
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: together and develop the habits and skills that enable them
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: to get things together. Tutors often help, and the literature
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: shows that they could often make a huge difference around
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: again not about knowledge, but around organization and structuring things
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and providing reminders. And if you find your kids are
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: like leaving everything at the last minute, then you know,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: having someone that can help them start earlier and also
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: to identify what's going on anxiety wise. When they do
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: start early, there's probably a whole range of things going
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: on there.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: When you say structure, I start smiling to myself because
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: given the hereditary nature of many of the near development
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: or conditions we've discussed today.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: Now, if you've got a parent who's got ADHD, absolutely
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: they're going I want to help my kid to have structure,
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: but I don't know what that is myself, Like, it
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: can be extremely challenging for them.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's step into the school text for a sec. Yeah,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: what should parents tell teachers about executive function challenges? Like
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: how does a parent effectively advocate for their child to
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: get the support that they need at school, especially when
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: there is no diagnosis yet or there's funding challenges or
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, in our case, we just withdrew our child
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: from school because we found it was it was just
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: too hard in spite of our best efforts to advocate
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: for our child.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, there's never a right way here,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: and this is an incredibly charged environment, and we know
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: that teachers and schools are, you know, particularly the public
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: systems are under enormous pressure to deliver. So we recognize
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: the complexity of the question you're about You've asked, right,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: but at the end of the day, the kids should
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: be at the center of it, and the kids whose
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: needs really matter, we want them to succeed the most.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: And so to answer the question specifically, I think parents
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: may be the best advocate, but also getting a system
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: of support around the child world is really important. So
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: you know, I think having a pediatrician or a psychologist
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: or a depending on the needs that an I T
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: or speech you that can advocate alongside you is really
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: really useful because not only do you bring a huge
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: uh you know, detailed knowledge of your child, but you
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: also bring a degree that where you need someone who's
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: independent to communicate. So I think getting getting that team
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: of support around you is really important. Secondly, teachers, you know,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: are they the best place to start? There's often learning
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: support teams, and you know they may be the best
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: if you're like educated in the space, yes, and then
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: then may be the teacher in combination with them. And
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: then also I guess really practical stuff that if you
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: find stuff works at home for your child, advocating really
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: practical stuff to the teacher is useful. As you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: teachers have a big job to do, so you know,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: being aware of what their capacity is is important as well.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: And then you know, this is a moving space. So
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: one thing I've often said to parents, if the school
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: is one that doesn't meet the needs of your child,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: don't be afraid to shift schools. And it may not
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: necessarily be about the school. It may be about the
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: teacher at that school that is just not the right fit.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Don't be afraid to go to different places to get
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: the support that your child needs because and of course
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: it could be about the peer groups. So you know,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: if it really isn't working and you're finding yourself hitting
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: up your head up against the brick wall, you don
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: can get a lot of gain by getting into different schools.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: One more question on executive function. How does a parent
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: explain to a child in a way that builds their
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: confidence rather than creating shame and a feeling that they're
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: not enough. What's going on? Like, how do you sit
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: down with a child and say, we've done these tests
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: and euutistic or we've done these tests and we think
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: ADHD is the reason that these challenges exist you have
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: in your developmental condition.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, So I think that what parents need to do
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: really is the first thing is we're not talking about
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of deep stuff when it comes to executive function.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: It's kids needing to structure and support and you know,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: make their bed and get dressed, and if they're really
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: struggling with it, they'll know they're struggling with it, and
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: just being supportive and providing the steps and the structure
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: that's needed for them to do it, but being open
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: that maybe they actually need that structure and support because
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: it teaches them not that they have a deficit, but
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: actually if they're struggling with something, maybe there's supports they
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: can reach out for, or maybe things that they can
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: do to structure their own activities to do to help themselves.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: So I think that the first step is really to
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: make sure that you're doing it in a supportive way,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: but you are providing different steps to help kids complete
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: the tasks. The second thing is, you know, whenever you
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: give information, always give it in a really positive way.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: And you can remember also all the strengths that you
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: recognize in your child. And we know that caregivers. We've
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: done lots of studies that have shown caregivers know lots
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: of strengths about their child and they talk about them,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: but when they come to sort of the problem, they'll
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: often not only talk about the problem. So just make
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: sure you bring in some of that strength based stuff
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: and make sure that they feel valued and heard when
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: you're talking about it. But don't be afraid to highlight
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: that maybe kids that they need to do certain things
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: to succeed, and that'll teach them how to navigate things
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: in the future.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: A technical question for you that is getting back into
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: some cutting edge research. There's been some fascinating studies done
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: using rat models that have caught my attention that suggest
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: that the cerebellum. So for people who are not familiar
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: with the cerebellum, it's kind of top of the brain
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: stem back of your brain, right at the very back
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: at the bottom of your brain, the back of your head.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: And what it does is it helps It's attached to
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: about eighty percent of the neurons in our brain, so
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: it helps us with breathing and digestion and all of
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: the automatic processes that keep us alive. But it's also
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: associated with automating behaviors like understanding social cues and remembering
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: physical actions like how to pick something up like a
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: pen or a pencil and hold it correctly. So this
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: research that's caught my attention suggests that since the cerebellum
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: is so involved in automating certain behaviors properly, it potentially
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: also explains challenges in ADHD autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia with ADHD.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Automating in terms of long term planning with autism, nothing
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: automating in terms of reading social cues with dyslexia. Nothing
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: automating in terms of remembering what that letter is symbolic
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: of or represents in terms of dyspraxia, not remembering how
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: to hold the pencil. Are you familiar with the research
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: and what do you think it might mean?
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that general idea is pervades
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of the science around autism and neurodevelopmental conditions
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: in general. And you're talking about cerebellum focused research, but
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: you can also put that into a front alone example
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: where you've got goal development and set shifting and switching attention.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: And if kids aren't paying attention enough, or they aren't
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: able to coordinate the information enough, or they're feeling overwhelmed,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: then they cannot consolidate that information for learning and they
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: won't be able to recall that information when they need it.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: And so that general idea or model is, you know,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: how we consider a lot of neurodevelopmental conditions to I
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: guess change the way that kids learn and where the
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: supports are needed in terms of providing that structure and
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: support to be able to sort of help with consolidation
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: and retrieval.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: I love that. So essentially, the executive function the work
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: that you've been focused on. That's the top front of
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: the brain, right, the prefront of course, that's right. This
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: is this is down the other end of the brain.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: But you're suggesting that if one of them is no online,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: the other one can't function well, and so that works.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: That's right. So I think we in the nineties we
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: thought about, you know, brain systems as different discrete components, right,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: so that we had this part of the brain is
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: only responsible for.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Memory left brain or on right brain.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the big shift over the last
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: twenty years has been acknowledging that different brain systems, well,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: they all interact, and you know, if there's usually around coordination,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: this is why executive function is so important. If there
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: are issues around the coordination of brain systems, it has
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: a broad effect across It's a connectivity issue rather than
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: just one specific thing not doing it what it should do.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Adam, you're a mountain of knowledge. The conversation has been fascinating,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: it's been practical, but it's also been wonderfully insightful, and
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: my sense is that for parents who are grappling with
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: the challenges that come with raising children who experience neurodevelopmental conditions,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: my sense is that you've been a ray of hope
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: and like I said, just just a mountain of knowledge
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: and information. So grateful for your time. You've been extremely
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: generous in what you've shared. Thank you for your input today.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Is there anything at all that you think that we've
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: either missed or that you'd just like to grab a
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: highlighter and scribble as hard as you can so that
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: parents really grab that one thing and hold on to it.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: The one thing that I would want parents to do
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: is to get this like to battle, to battle to
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: get the support they need. It's not we don't. Unfortunately,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: our system is not easy to navigate. It's not like
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: getting your teeth cleaned. It's it's it's excuse my friendships
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: bloody hard and for parents, it's going to be a
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: long term battle at the moment until our system is better.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: To get the support that your child and your family needs,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: and to know that there are many many other families
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: in the same position as yourself, and to persist that that.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: You know, I think it's it's about persistence and and
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: you know, for those parents that are doing that to
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: my hat's off to you because you're advocating for your
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: child and that's it's a really important thing. Adam.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Really appreciate your time. Just hearing you say that, I'm
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: thinking of all all the emails and all the social
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: media messages that I see where parents are saying I'm
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: dying here. I'm just tearing my hair up. This is
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: so so hard. Really appreciate your compassion and the wonderful
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: work that you do and again your generosity.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Today.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time talking about this today.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: You have so many people and so many things that
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: are pressuring you for your time. So thank you for
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: helping us to get this message out today.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Thanks Justin, It's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed it.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Professor Adam Guastella is at the University of Sydney and
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: doing incredible work advocating for the needs of children with
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: neurodevelopmental conditions, and he's joined me today on the Happy
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Families podcast. The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Roland from Bridge Media. If you would like more information
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: and resources that can make your family happier. Please visit
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: us at happy families dot com dot a you, and
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: we'll link to as many things as we can that
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Adam's done in our show notes to give you that
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: extra support