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Faith, Reason & Culture Q&A with Abdu Murray · Karl and Crew

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S1: and crew Ask the Experts week.
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S6: This has been epic, and I'm not overstating it. I mean,
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S6: If you haven't heard the word, we've got three episodes
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S6: per day this whole week because of the experts that
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S6: we're bringing in. And wow, Ali, what else do you say, sister?
1:15
S4: You know, I am so grateful for those of you
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S4: who have asked questions. We obviously have not been able
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S4: hit a lot of different angles. So even if we
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S4: didn't get to your question exactly, get the show cast
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S4: show to 805, 55, 78, 98.
1:35
S6: Well, the beat goes on. Abdu Murray here new to me.
1:38
S6: Ali was keeping him all to herself for the longest time.
1:42
S6: And then when I.
1:44
S4: As in we had him on twice when Carl was out.
1:47
S6: Oh my goodness. Speaker author attorney who specializes in addressing
1:51
S6: issues where religious faith and emerging cultural trends intersect and collide.
1:58
S6: They're colliding everywhere, aren't they, Abdou?
2:00
S7: They are indeed. Thanks for having me on, guys. I
2:02
S7: really appreciate it.
2:03
S6: Really good to have you back. What are the big
2:05
S6: issues today?
2:06
S7: Well, the big issues today are almost daily changing. Um, uh,
2:10
S7: in terms of where faith and culture collide. I mean,
2:13
S7: the big pervasive issues right now, at least for the
2:15
S7: past two years, have been the advent of AI and
2:18
S7: where that's leading us in terms of understanding what it
2:21
S7: means to be human and what it means to be
2:23
S7: made in the image of God. And we're sort of
2:25
S7: sort of losing a sense of that, because if the
2:28
S7: machines can do what we do and they have no soul,
2:31
S7: what does that say about us? Uh, also, of course,
2:34
S7: the issues of identity. I mean, identity seems to be
2:36
S7: the word that everyone talks about all the time across
2:39
S7: the board. It's making news, it's making headlines. It made
2:42
S7: news and headlines yesterday because of a Supreme Court ruling
2:46
S7: on gender issues with regard to parents and what they
2:49
S7: know and can't know, uh, from school systems. And, of course,
2:53
S7: you know, world events. And what is the role of
2:56
S7: the Christian in praying for our enemies and those who
3:00
S7: persecute us in light of all that's going on around
3:03
S7: the world. So there's no shortage of, uh, cultural issues
3:06
S7: to have to talk about, and they seem to emerge daily.
3:08
S7: The good news is, is that we have an unchanging
3:10
S7: message that predicts all these things, even though the world
3:13
S7: seems to be changing.
3:15
S6: It seems to me like we got a tough recipe.
3:17
S6: We've got spiritual ambiguity on the rise in the West,
3:20
S6: and then you've got an AI platform that is, um,
3:24
S6: spiritually ambiguous on steroids. That's a bad combo, isn't it,
3:28
S6: my friend?
3:29
S7: It really is. Because what when we do have a
3:32
S7: sense in which people are returning to a sense of spirituality,
3:35
S7: but there's also this dominant feature and culture, which is
3:38
S7: the the culture of self making, uh, whether it's curating
3:42
S7: your online, uh, persona or it's becoming an influencer, especially
3:46
S7: for young people, when you ask them, what do you
3:47
S7: want to be when you grow up? They say influencer.
3:50
S7: And that leads to a sense of a curated and
3:53
S7: a manufactured identity. Then along comes, uh, artificial intelligence platform,
4:00
S7: which basically says, you don't really have one. You're just
4:02
S7: a machine like me. Um, and, um, but you can
4:06
S7: create it if you want to, but you have to
4:08
S7: do it not through a spiritual means, but through a
4:11
S7: completely sort of artificial means. It's a it's a dangerous combination.
4:15
S7: And we're seeing the effects of it. The more the
4:16
S7: research is coming out, the more we're seeing that overreliance
4:20
S7: on technology to tell you what the world is like
4:24
S7: and to do your thinking for you. Uh, it's not
4:26
S7: resulting in the machines becoming more human like. It's resulting
4:30
S7: in the humans becoming more machine like.
4:32
S4: Abdu Murray, our guest expert. Uh, now, he has tackled
4:35
S4: complex issues in some pretty tough forums. He does Q&A forums, debates,
4:41
S4: dialogues at leading universities like Yale, Berkeley, MIT, and others
4:46
S4: around the world. I am going to. One of the
4:48
S4: things I love about your website, Abdu, is that you
4:50
S4: have these videos of these 20 of the most commonly
4:55
S4: asked questions about the faith. So I'm going to pull
4:58
S4: one from those to get us started and to kind
5:00
S4: of help set the table for the kind of questions
5:03
S4: that our folks can ask you. 805 55 7898 855
5:09
S4: five 7898 let's start with this one. Is the Bible
5:13
S4: morally outdated?
5:16
S7: Yeah. And this is one of my favorite topics, actually,
5:18
S7: to talk about, because I wrote a book called More
5:20
S7: Than a White Man's Religion, where I pose the issue.
5:24
S7: The more I see on schools, I see that the
5:26
S7: university levels, they're not asking first, is the Bible true?
5:30
S7: They're asking first. Is the Bible moral because they accuse
5:33
S7: it of being sexist and racist and, uh, anything ending
5:37
S7: in the suffix phobia, you know, uh, transphobia, homophobia, that
5:42
S7: kind of thing. Um, and the answer is no. In fact,
5:44
S7: I would argue that the Bible is actually the cure
5:46
S7: for the very things that's being blamed for. When you
5:49
S7: look at the way, let's just take the racism and
5:51
S7: ethnicism issue, Um, when you look at the way the
5:54
S7: Bible actually describes the nation of Israel, oftentimes Israel is
5:58
S7: used as an instrument of judgment by God for the
6:01
S7: actions of the surrounding nations. In other words, God doesn't
6:04
S7: judge them based on their skin color or based on
6:07
S7: their location, or based on their accents or their food choices. Rather,
6:12
S7: God judges them based on their on what they do morally,
6:17
S7: which is child sacrifice and worshiping false gods, temple prostitution
6:21
S7: and these things. And we know it's not race based,
6:24
S7: because when Israel does the same things, God uses those
6:27
S7: other nations as instruments of judgment to correct Israel, uh, herself.
6:32
S7: So we see that God is no, no, no, no
6:35
S7: one who favors people based on their ethnicity. In fact,
6:38
S7: God judges people not based on their skin color, but
6:40
S7: on the content of their character. And of course, that
6:43
S7: sounds terribly familiar. That sounds like Martin Luther King who
6:46
S7: did not pull that phrase out of the sky. Well,
6:48
S7: I guess it came from the Bible. So he kind
6:50
S7: of did. But, um. Uh, but it's the sentiment of equality, uh,
6:54
S7: right there and then, you see, if the if the
6:56
S7: Bible were racist and sexist, what you wouldn't see is
7:00
S7: women who are non-Jews being the heroes of stories. Yet
7:05
S7: you see in John chapter four, when Jesus encounters a
7:07
S7: Samaritan woman who is rejected by not only her own people,
7:11
S7: but of course, by, um, the animosity that existed between
7:15
S7: two ethnicities of the Jews and the Samaritans. Jesus uses
7:19
S7: a woman to become the first cross-cultural missionary, and she's
7:21
S7: wildly successful. And that is an amazing thing. And that's
7:26
S7: one story of but dozens. So right now in our culture,
7:29
S7: we're facing the issues of racial equality and all these
7:32
S7: kind of things and, uh, gender equality. And the Bible
7:35
S7: has been talking about this for 2000 years. So rather
7:38
S7: than be this kind of thing where we think of
7:40
S7: it as an outdated book, it's actually our eternal contemporary.
7:44
S7: It's ancient, yet it constantly speaks to our current cultural issues.
7:48
S4: Abdu Murray, our guest. I'll give you the number 800
7:51
S4: 555 7898. If you have questions on faith, reason, culture,
7:57
S4: world religions 800 555 7898.
8:01
S6: Uh, do we live in a culture not just in
8:04
S6: the West? I think predominantly more so here. Uh, it
8:08
S6: seems that when I travel around the world and I
8:11
S6: see people that don't have the means we have in
8:14
S6: the West, I'm reminded that Jesus himself said, I've chosen
8:18
S6: those who are poor in this world to be rich
8:20
S6: in faith. It's it's a bizarre situation that we have.
8:24
S6: We've got blame game on steroids. And my my question is,
8:29
S6: I know that we need to look for justice, but
8:33
S6: how important? I'm sharing my conviction here. Here's my conviction.
8:38
S6: Rather than asking you to rubber stamp my conviction, you
8:42
S6: tell me where I'm wrong. My conviction is that the
8:46
S6: gospel has an innate nature of looking within oneself, not
8:52
S6: the world around us. And when we lose that, we
8:55
S6: lose a lot. Am I wrong? Abdou.
8:59
S7: When we look within ourselves and not to the world,
9:01
S7: we lose a lot. Or when we lose that idea.
9:04
S6: Yeah, when we lose the idea that the the the
9:07
S6: greatest problem in our life is staring us in the
9:09
S6: mirror in the morning and not someone else. We're better off,
9:13
S6: aren't we, Abdou?
9:14
S7: We we are. Um. And this is where I think
9:17
S7: the gospel has this universal applicability. You know, I came
9:19
S7: from a muslim background and a middle eastern, uh, ethnicity.
9:24
S7: And so I come from an honor and shame culture
9:26
S7: and an honor and shame culture is different than a Western, um, uh,
9:30
S7: innocence and guilt culture in the sense that an honor
9:33
S7: and shame culture is communal. Uh, we have the same morality.
9:36
S7: We just enforce it communally. In other words, if I
9:38
S7: do something wrong, I become someone shameful as opposed to
9:44
S7: I've done something wrong. In the in the West, we
9:46
S7: have an individualized culture, which is if I do something wrong,
9:50
S7: I can look inwardly and I don't need someone else
9:52
S7: to tell me. I look in the man in the mirror,
9:54
S7: as it were. Um, and both have their beauties. Um,
9:58
S7: because I do think there is this sense in which
10:00
S7: the sin condition is something that's intensely personal, and when
10:03
S7: we don't reckon with the sin condition, um, and see
10:06
S7: the truth of our, uh, the, the condition with which
10:10
S7: we are beset, then we can't affect the community in
10:13
S7: a positive way. Um, however, um, we have to recognize
10:18
S7: at the same time that our sin condition does have
10:21
S7: a communal effect. So while we're looking for justice and
10:24
S7: these kind of things, inequality all throughout society, it starts internally. Um,
10:29
S7: and so the beauty of the gospel is, is that
10:31
S7: it was presented to an honor and shame, Middle Eastern culture.
10:35
S7: So it was communal and it talked about the societal
10:39
S7: impacts of our sin, but it also presents itself in
10:43
S7: an individualized way because our individual sin is being called
10:47
S7: out when the rich young ruler says, what must I
10:49
S7: do to attain eternal life? Jesus individualizes the answer. He says,
10:54
S7: there's one thing you lack. Not everybody, just you. And
10:57
S7: you need to sell everything you have and come, come
11:00
S7: follow me. Not because rich people are inherently bad and
11:03
S7: they have this thing that other people don't have, but
11:05
S7: because this guy relied on himself a little too much
11:09
S7: and Jesus needed to call out that guy. So he
11:11
S7: held up a mirror to that individual guy, and he
11:14
S7: did it in a communal culture. And the whole idea
11:17
S7: here is that when we face the sin internally, we
11:21
S7: can begin to have positive effect externally. But if we
11:25
S7: don't deal with the person we're looking at, well, then
11:27
S7: how can we ever actually affect the world in a
11:31
S7: positive way? In fact, more than that, when we don't
11:34
S7: look internally, we start to judge hypocritically. And that's a
11:37
S7: violation of when Jesus says, do not judge hypocritically, but
11:40
S7: when you judge, use a correct judgment. So over and
11:43
S7: over again, when we look internally and we lose that sense.
11:46
S7: We start to judge other people as less than us.
11:48
S7: And therefore there is an inequality. We judge their prejudices
11:52
S7: and their inequalities, never dealing with the inequalities in our
11:55
S7: own life.
11:56
S4: Abdu Murray, our guest expert this hour taking your questions
11:59
S4: on faith, reason, culture, World Religions 855 five 7898 855
12:08
S4: five 7898.
12:10
S1: Get your info from a source you can trust. It's
12:13
S1: Ask the Experts week with Carl and crew.
12:16
S6: It's Carl and crew. Ask the experts. One of our
12:20
S6: favorites here, Abdu Murray. Uh, here's why this is so important.
12:25
S6: When we're talking to world religion, we're talking ethics. We're
12:28
S6: talking almost any topic where you've got this collision of
12:32
S6: philosophies in our world today. If you've been aching to
12:36
S6: have an answer to those kind of questions, tee them
12:38
S6: up right now. 800 800 0555 7898 800 555 7898. Abdu,
12:52
S6: a question I'm asking for a friend ala me. Here
12:57
S6: we go. Um, Abdu, I had a friend when I
13:01
S6: lived in South Africa for a year, had a ministry
13:03
S6: to Muslims and he had an interesting approach. I don't
13:08
S6: have a dog in this hunt at all. So I
13:10
S6: want your honest opinion. You being raised in a muslim context.
13:14
S6: He appealed that this God that these folks were praying
13:18
S6: to in their naivety, or maybe in their Muslim in
13:23
S6: name only, was really the one true and living God.
13:26
S6: And he used that as an attempt of an evangelistic tool.
13:30
S6: I've heard a lot of debate on this. So coming
13:34
S6: from your you've got a perfect platform to speak to this.
13:38
S6: Who is the God of the Muslim of Islam versus
13:42
S6: the God of the scriptures.
13:44
S7: Yeah. And this great question. And, uh, oftentimes I want
13:48
S7: to make sure I approach this with a level of
13:51
S7: tactical wisdom and not only, um, uh, biblical insight, but
13:56
S7: of course, they feed each other, don't they? Um, and that's, uh,
13:59
S7: when Paul says in Colossians chapter four, verse five, walk
14:02
S7: in wisdom toward outsiders. So when we were talking to
14:04
S7: a muslim, if you start talking about different gods, well,
14:08
S7: because they fundamentally believe, because the Quran, their holy book,
14:12
S7: says that Allah, which is just a name for God,
14:15
S7: which means the God. In fact, most, uh, most Arab
14:19
S7: Christians refer to God as Allah, uh, as well, not
14:23
S7: just Muslims, because it means the God. They would say
14:26
S7: that their god from the Bible. From the Quran, I
14:28
S7: should say, um, uh, is uh, the only uncreated being
14:33
S7: there is. Everything else is created. He's perfect. He's all knowing,
14:36
S7: all powerful, all these things. He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael.
14:40
S7: And on it goes. So they would say it's the
14:42
S7: same line of, uh, the profits come from the same God. Um, now,
14:48
S7: the issue, though, is that that God is described in
14:52
S7: the Quran is very different in terms of his nature.
14:57
S7: For example, God is not triune. It is a blasphemous
15:00
S7: thing to say in Islam that God is one in
15:02
S7: his nature and three in his persons, that he is incarnational.
15:05
S7: He would never incarnate and limit himself in their words
15:09
S7: to Jesus's body, and that would be blasphemous itself. And then,
15:13
S7: my goodness, he would never die on a cross, because
15:17
S7: to die at the hands of the very sinners you
15:18
S7: created is an utterly shameful and weak thing. And God
15:22
S7: is too great for that, because they say the phrase
15:24
S7: Allahu Akbar. Um, so they would say that those things
15:27
S7: are fundamentally different. So what we're doing is we're talking
15:30
S7: about God, but we're having very different conceptions of who
15:35
S7: and what that God is and what he's like. So
15:38
S7: it's very different, the very things that I thought when
15:42
S7: I was a muslim insulted God's greatness like the Trinity,
15:46
S7: the incarnation and the cross. As I began to look
15:49
S7: into these things over a nine year search of the philosophical, historical,
15:53
S7: and scientific and other underpinnings of the various faiths, these
15:57
S7: ideas of Trinity, incarnation, and cross, I thought they insulted
16:00
S7: God's greatness. I've come to realize they actually demonstrate God's greatness. Wow.
16:05
S7: So for so for example, the cross. If God is
16:08
S7: truly the greatest possible being, and Muslims believe that, by
16:11
S7: the way, they would say Allahu Akbar, God is greater.
16:15
S7: He's the greatest possible being. But if God is the
16:17
S7: greatest possible being, then he would express the greatest possible virtue,
16:22
S7: which is love, in the greatest possible way. That just
16:25
S7: stands to reason. And what is the greatest possible way
16:29
S7: to express the greatest possible virtue with the greatest possible
16:32
S7: way to express love is self-sacrifice. And Islam knows nothing
16:36
S7: of that from the terms of God himself exhibiting that
16:41
S7: greatest virtue. But we do it. And so God has
16:43
S7: to do it better than we do, and we do
16:45
S7: it for those who love us, but God does it
16:47
S7: for those who hate him. Romans chapter five, verse eight.
16:50
S7: And when I realized that, and then I saw that
16:53
S7: whole philosophical argument encapsulated in just one verse, Romans chapter five,
16:58
S7: verse eight. I thought, oh my goodness, this truly is
17:01
S7: the Lord of language, the Lord of philosophy, the Lord
17:04
S7: of love, and the Lord of sacrifice. And I gave
17:07
S7: my life to him.
17:08
S6: Oh, you know what, Abdou? That is the greatest witnessing
17:13
S6: tool I've ever heard and I have. I have some
17:16
S6: dear friends, neighbors that, uh, go winter in Pakistan and, uh,
17:22
S6: they're restaurateurs, and they might even be listening right now. Um,
17:26
S6: and I love them so much. And what a that
17:29
S6: almost brings me to tears, bro. That's a powerful tool,
17:33
S6: isn't it?
17:34
S7: Well, it brought me to tears when I first realized it.
17:36
S7: You know, I looked for nine years and I think
17:39
S7: this is an important thing we have to recognize. Is
17:41
S7: that what we're talking about, cultural issues or different religious
17:44
S7: issues or whatever it is, the way the Apostle Paul
17:47
S7: talks in Colossians chapter four is he says, make the
17:50
S7: best use of the time. Let your speech be gracious,
17:52
S7: seasoned with salt, so you may know how you ought
17:54
S7: to answer each person. Not each worldview, not each issue,
17:57
S7: not each controversy, but each person. So when Christians were
18:02
S7: engaging with me, they were asking essentially the effective ones
18:06
S7: were asking, what does Abdou care about? What are the
18:08
S7: things that he deeply longs for that are legitimate? And
18:12
S7: how does the gospel speak to it and answer it?
18:14
S7: And so I, as a muslim, wanted to, uh, follow
18:19
S7: a religion or follow a belief system that extolled God
18:22
S7: as the greatest possible being, uh, that's the center or
18:25
S7: center of Islam. And so various ways I saw that
18:29
S7: the gospel over time, despite my resistance to it, started
18:33
S7: to answer the things I needed to know were true.
18:37
S7: It was Blaise Pascal who beautifully said that men despise
18:41
S7: religion and they fear that it may be true. The
18:43
S7: trick is to show them that religion is not contrary
18:45
S7: to reason, but worthy of reverence and respect. And then
18:48
S7: he says, make good people wish it were true, and
18:52
S7: then show them that it is true. And for me,
18:55
S7: that's the big, the big, the big mesh. You mesh
18:58
S7: someone's legitimate desire with the rational belief. And the Bible
19:02
S7: does exactly that.
19:04
S6: Dude, this is. You have hit on the most salient
19:07
S6: point of witness to almost any worldview other than a christocentric,
19:13
S6: self-sacrificing Jesus, because they all aim at something like this,
19:18
S6: don't they?
19:19
S7: They do. You know, people often say things like, all
19:22
S7: religions are essentially the same. They're only superficially different. But
19:26
S7: the reality is they're exactly the opposite. They're superficially the same, but, um,
19:31
S7: but but deeply, profoundly different. Except in this one way,
19:35
S7: Every system of belief in some form or fashion has
19:39
S7: a sense in which your. You strive to please God
19:43
S7: or to attain enlightenment, or even if you're an atheist.
19:47
S7: If we have enough education and resource distribution and these
19:51
S7: kind of things will manufacture a Star Trek like existence
19:54
S7: where we'll speak to machines and food will pop out.
19:56
S7: You know, there's always this sense in which we are
19:58
S7: our own savior. Um, in Islam, for example, if you
20:02
S7: do enough good works, your cosmic scale is weighed to
20:04
S7: the balance where your good outweighs your bad and you
20:07
S7: go to heaven. You still need God's mercy. Of course,
20:09
S7: the Quran says that over and over again, but even
20:11
S7: that mercy is earned. In one sense, it is only
20:14
S7: the Christian gospel in sharp distinction to every other worldview
20:18
S7: that says, you cannot be good enough, we cannot be
20:21
S7: the solution because we are in fact the problem, and
20:25
S7: therefore we need someone who's not us to save us
20:27
S7: from us. And even the Quran itself. The book of
20:31
S7: the Muslims says if God were to judge humanity according
20:34
S7: to what it deserves, he would not leave on the
20:36
S7: back of the earth even one living thing. That's how
20:39
S7: deep and pervasive and destructive our sin is. So if
20:43
S7: that's how bad we are, how can we fix it?
20:45
S7: We need God's mercy. Of course. But we need God's solution.
20:49
S7: And the cross is the solution that satisfies God's justice
20:52
S7: and his mercy at the same time.
20:54
S6: Mohammed had a moment of clarity there.
20:57
S7: Yeah. No, absolutely. And because he was influenced by by
21:00
S7: Christians around him, and there were Christians who who were
21:04
S7: in Arabia at the time of Muhammad's advent. So he
21:07
S7: did have some level of influence there. And so I
21:10
S7: think here's the thing. I think, uh, is that every
21:14
S7: system of belief at some point or other recognizes and
21:18
S7: this comes from a secular source, Stephen Prothero. He says
21:20
S7: every system of belief recognizes that something is wrong with
21:23
S7: the world and something wrong with humanity. But we all
21:26
S7: get to different. We get to different finish lines. We
21:28
S7: have the same starting line, different finish lines. It is
21:31
S7: the Christian faith that says the starting line dictates how
21:34
S7: we get to the finish line. Because if something's wrong
21:37
S7: with us, then we need someone outside of us. Other
21:40
S7: systems of belief pay lip service to this. They do,
21:43
S7: but they don't get you all the way there because
21:45
S7: there's ultimately a humanistic central to those views. Um, and
21:50
S7: it's the Christian faith in its irony which says that
21:53
S7: human beings are sinful, yet we are beautifully and wonderfully
21:57
S7: made in God's image. And so the cross reconciles and
22:02
S7: bridges those two seemingly contradictory, but only paradoxical truths that
22:07
S7: we are made in God's image. And because we're infinitely valuable,
22:10
S7: made in his image, an infinite price needs to be
22:12
S7: paid to redeem us, and that's why God Himself pays
22:15
S7: it if we are infinitely valuable, but we try in
22:18
S7: our finitude to pay the price, the price will never
22:21
S7: be sufficient, because it's not infinite to satisfy our infinite
22:24
S7: value in God's infinite justice and mercy. But the cross
22:27
S7: is infinite because God Himself pays.
22:30
S5: Wow.
22:31
S4: Abdu Murray, our guest. And you're going. How can I
22:34
S4: find out more about this guy? Text. Embrace. He is
22:37
S4: the president of Embrace the truth. Just text embrace to
22:41
S4: 800 555 7898. Embrace to 800 555 7898. Coming up,
22:49
S4: we'll tackle this one. It's now common for people to
22:52
S4: push back against the suggestion that there's a your truth.
22:56
S4: My truth? That debate's been going on for a while.
22:59
S4: But as we as you've been talking about in the
23:01
S4: same vein, what's the most kind, loving, winsome way to
23:06
S4: approach that question? Where it's not angry, it's not fist stomping,
23:09
S4: but why can't we all have our own truth? Coming up.
23:15
S1: You've got questions. They've got answers. It's Ask the Experts
23:19
S1: week with curl and crew.
23:21
S4: Well, right back to our Ask the Expert this hour,
23:24
S4: Abdu Murray from Embrace the Truth. He is a speaker, author, attorney.
23:28
S4: We're taking questions on faith, reason, culture, religion 800 555 7898.
23:35
S4: You know, it can be tempting to be triggered or
23:38
S4: get angry when somebody uses a version of your truth.
23:41
S4: My truth? But what's the loving way to respond to
23:46
S4: somebody who suggests that that's great, that what you believe
23:49
S4: works for you? I believe something different that works for me.
23:53
S4: Can't we all just get along?
23:55
S7: Yeah. Well, the first thing I think in that kind
23:58
S7: of objection is that, um, we don't believe things because
24:01
S7: they work. Um, things aren't true because they work. But
24:04
S7: oftentimes things that are true do, in fact, work. In
24:07
S7: other words, it doesn't work because it doesn't. It's not
24:10
S7: true because it works. It works because it's true. Um, now,
24:13
S7: sometimes we have to realize that things that, uh, things
24:17
S7: that are inconvenient are also true as well. So when
24:20
S7: someone says my truth, you have your truth. I have
24:23
S7: my truth. And let's settle it at that. Um, the
24:26
S7: problem with that is that it sounds incredibly respectful. And
24:29
S7: so what I want to say is the way to
24:30
S7: lovingly approach this is to say, okay, I hear what
24:32
S7: you're trying to say. You're trying to be respectful of
24:35
S7: all points of view and give each point of view
24:37
S7: an equal weight. But the reality is, truth by definition,
24:40
S7: excludes that which is false. By definition, it's exclusive. So
24:44
S7: it can't actually be a cosmic vacuum where everything can
24:47
S7: be allowed. Because what if I say it's my truth
24:51
S7: that your truth is false? Now what? Because if my
24:53
S7: truth is that your truth is false, and your truth
24:55
S7: is that all truths are true. Mm. Now we're at
24:57
S7: an impasse. And so if you're going to respect my beliefs,
25:00
S7: then you have to respect my belief that your belief
25:02
S7: is wrong. Well, now, what do we do? Um. And
25:05
S7: so that can't be the way it goes. That is
25:07
S7: simply a recipe for chaos. Rather, I do what I
25:11
S7: call giving people the dignity of difference. I take someone
25:15
S7: else's point of view seriously enough to say I will
25:18
S7: agree or disagree based on what you say. So for example, um,
25:22
S7: it Christianity, we talked about this before Christianity. In Islam, um,
25:25
S7: there's many things that are similar in their belief systems,
25:29
S7: but there's enough things that are fundamentally different that we
25:32
S7: would say this. If Islam and Christianity were similar and
25:36
S7: were equally true, then what was the point of the
25:39
S7: advent of Islam in the first place? Because why would
25:43
S7: you need a new a system of belief to correct?
25:46
S7: You know, in their view, Christian belief, if the Christian
25:50
S7: belief in the in the Muslim belief were essentially the same,
25:52
S7: what was the point of Muhammad in the first place?
25:54
S7: What was the point of the Quran in the first place?
25:56
S7: So I would say that I take a muslim seriously
25:59
S7: when I disagree with them. I'm taking 1400 years of
26:03
S7: tradition and saying, I looked at your views. They're different
26:07
S7: than my views. Now let's talk lovingly and caringly about
26:11
S7: why they're different. Because to say they're all equally true
26:13
S7: and I have my truth and you have your truth,
26:15
S7: is to invalidate the claims of the various founders of
26:21
S7: the most influential belief systems in the world. Hinduism and
26:24
S7: Buddhism are a good example. They sound so similar because
26:27
S7: they both believe in reincarnation and karma. But Buddha actually
26:31
S7: started Buddhism as a Hindu in rejection of the fundamental
26:35
S7: idea that the Hindu believes, which is that the self
26:38
S7: is God. Buddha said there is no self. Well, you
26:41
S7: can't get more different than that. And to say that
26:44
S7: Buddhists and Hindus believe essentially the same thing is to
26:47
S7: disrespect thousands of years of both Hindu and Buddhist traditions.
26:51
S7: So rather than disrespect them, why don't we lovingly come
26:54
S7: to a common to to a statement that we can
26:56
S7: disagree agreeably and say, what is the truth? Not what
27:00
S7: is my truth? Because what is my truth? Insults other
27:04
S7: other faiths? It doesn't compliment them.
27:06
S4: Abdu Murray, our guest expert this morning taking your questions
27:09
S4: 805 55 7898. Alma. First time caller from Chicago. Thanks
27:15
S4: for calling in. Give us your question for Abdu Murray.
27:20
S8: Hi. Good morning. Um, yes, this question is for Abdu. Um,
27:24
S8: you mentioned the culture, um, a little earlier, especially in
27:28
S8: the biblical era. Um, as you, having been raised in
27:32
S8: that same culture, did that in any way shape your
27:35
S8: view of the Bible or the way you interpret it?
27:38
S7: Oh, I'm so glad you asked, alma, because absolutely it did.
27:41
S7: Let me give you an example of how the Bible
27:43
S7: can really bake your noodle. If you really look at
27:46
S7: the the belief systems that it's addressing at the same time.
27:50
S7: So we have this parable in Matthew chapter 20, we
27:53
S7: have this parable of the generous employer where Jesus says,
27:56
S7: this is how God's sovereign grace works, is that there's
27:59
S7: these guys who are out there who are day laborers.
28:01
S7: They're looking for work that day. And then, uh, the, the, the,
28:04
S7: the master of a vineyard who is the proxy for
28:07
S7: God in this parable, goes out and says, hey, I'll
28:10
S7: take you, you and you. They negotiate for a, um,
28:13
S7: a denarius, uh, worth of work for that day. And
28:17
S7: they say that's a fair wage. And they go and
28:18
S7: they work in the vineyard for the whole day. Then
28:21
S7: the master goes out a second time and a third time,
28:24
S7: and a fourth time, and a fifth time to hire
28:26
S7: these laborers. Now in back then, just as today, if
28:30
S7: you don't get hired in the morning, you're not going
28:31
S7: to get hired at all. So they go home in shame,
28:35
S7: in an honor and shame culture that they couldn't get
28:38
S7: their get a day's wage to provide for their families.
28:43
S7: But these guys stayed there. In fact, the master of
28:45
S7: the vineyard says, what are you still doing here? Why
28:47
S7: are you still here? And they said we had held
28:50
S7: out hope that someone would give us a day's work.
28:52
S7: So the master of the vineyard said, go work in
28:54
S7: my in my, in my vineyard for even an hour,
28:56
S7: and I'll give you a denarius. So the same amount
28:59
S7: of money he paid the guys who worked all day
29:01
S7: at the end of the parable, of course, the first guy,
29:04
S7: the last guys get paid first, so the last. So
29:06
S7: the first guy see it and they're outraged and they say,
29:09
S7: wait a minute, we worked all day. These guys worked
29:10
S7: one hour. You gave us the same amount of money.
29:12
S7: That's not fair. And what does the master of the
29:14
S7: vineyard say? The master of the vineyard. Who is God?
29:17
S7: In the parable he says, friend, can't I do with
29:20
S7: my money what I want? I've done you no wrong.
29:22
S7: And didn't you agree for a denarius? It's about God's
29:24
S7: sovereign grace. The last shall be first, and the first
29:26
S7: shall be last. But here's the cool part. One. It
29:29
S7: answers the question of God's sovereignty and human free will
29:32
S7: that God can be sovereign. He can say, I will
29:35
S7: give somebody a dollar or a denarius based on my
29:38
S7: own sovereignty. But he says to those guys, and didn't
29:42
S7: you agree for a denarius that's human free will? They
29:46
S7: negotiated and they agreed of their own free will. So
29:49
S7: God's sovereignty and human free will at the same time.
29:52
S7: That's an that's an that's a sort of a thing
29:55
S7: I get in the West a question I get in
29:57
S7: the West. But what's cool is this I remember reading
30:01
S7: this parable and someone shared it with me when I
30:02
S7: was a muslim, and I thought, this is a terrible story,
30:04
S7: it's so unfair. But then I saw my honor and
30:07
S7: shame culture reflected in it. The guys who waited all
30:10
S7: day for a job didn't want to go home in
30:14
S7: shame and God, because of their faith, rewarded them with
30:20
S7: a denarius the same day, same wage as a full
30:23
S7: day's work, because their faith that God would redeem them
30:27
S7: and save them from shame was credited as if it
30:30
S7: was work. And that goes all the way back to Genesis,
30:34
S7: where Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness, as if it
30:38
S7: was work, for God's sake. And so you see the
30:40
S7: Bible woven together. And when I saw that, I was
30:44
S7: amazed that this Bible, which I thought was a white,
30:46
S7: Western sort of individualistic book, actually speaks to my culture.
30:51
S7: And that started so many questions for me about, oh
30:54
S7: my goodness, maybe this Bible actually speaks to my people
30:58
S7: as well as the West. And I often put it
31:00
S7: this way Jesus has a passport with many stamps.
31:04
S6: Oh, this is beautiful. Abdu Murray, our guests Ask the
31:08
S6: Experts week. This is epic. If you've got questions, he's
31:12
S6: got answers. 800, 555, 78, 98. Give us a call
31:16
S6: or text right now. 800 Five. Five. Five. 78. 98. Abdou.
31:23
S6: How many Muslims are like many Western Christians? I use
31:27
S6: that in air quotes that are Muslim in name only
31:30
S6: and really don't know theology. And they're just guided by
31:33
S6: the cultural norms.
31:36
S7: Oh, it's uh, it's just like every other faith system
31:39
S7: and every other culture as well as that, you have
31:40
S7: plenty of people who are Muslim in name only because, um, there's, uh, again,
31:45
S7: that honor and shame culture dictates that they, um, identify
31:50
S7: culturally or um, in terms of, uh, their society as Muslim, which,
31:55
S7: which but they don't really know a deep sense of
31:58
S7: their theology. There's a lot of them, I'd say even
32:00
S7: probably the majority of most Muslims don't know their Quran.
32:04
S7: They know a couple of verses, just like Christians know
32:06
S7: a couple of verses that are that are pet verses
32:09
S7: for them. The opening chapter of the Quran, the chapter 114,
32:13
S7: which is a very short chapter of the Quran. They
32:15
S7: know those by heart because they're required to. but, um. Uh,
32:19
S7: the deep theologies and some of the deep history, they
32:21
S7: don't really know. Um, and, uh, but they hear what
32:25
S7: they get, what they hear. So but they adhere to
32:27
S7: it because there's a cultural mandate to do so. Sam Solomon,
32:31
S7: himself a former Muslim, once put it this way. In
32:34
S7: the West, if you drew a square with a dot
32:36
S7: in the middle, the dot is religious identity and the
32:40
S7: square is you. In other words, your sense of individual
32:42
S7: identity dominates. But in the East and in the Middle East,
32:46
S7: it's exactly the opposite. The square that surrounds the dot
32:49
S7: is religious identity, and the dot is you. You're a
32:53
S7: small part of the full religious identity, which explains why
32:57
S7: Muslims who are nominal, who might, you know, be Muslim
33:00
S7: in name only, will engage with you in a sort
33:03
S7: of verbal death match over whether or not Christianity or
33:06
S7: Islam is true, even though they don't practice it, they
33:09
S7: don't pray the five daily prayers. They might fast Ramadan,
33:12
S7: which we're in the middle of, but, um, might not, uh,
33:15
S7: you know, fully understand or live out their faith. The
33:19
S7: other 11 months of the year. But they would still
33:22
S7: engage in this, in this, in this debate with you
33:24
S7: because it's part of their identity. They have an obligation
33:28
S7: to maintain it in an honor and shame culture. And
33:31
S7: that's that's what the barriers can be so big no
33:33
S7: matter what they know or don't know.
33:35
S6: Is it harder to reach the dot or the square?
33:38
S7: Wow. Uh, um, it really does depend, because sometimes I
33:43
S7: have to convince people who claim to be Christians that
33:46
S7: they're not, um, in order to, like, tell them this
33:49
S7: is who Christ really is. And they.
33:50
S6: Think men.
33:51
S7: You know, and so sometimes the dot is really hard
33:54
S7: to convert because the dot thinks they're the square. Um, uh,
33:58
S7: but I think oftentimes it's hard to convince. It's hard
34:01
S7: to convince the square, um, because there's not a rational
34:06
S7: reason to attend to that religious system. It's a personal reason.
34:10
S7: There's intense consequences. There are identity issues. If I stop
34:14
S7: being a muslim, then who am I? And when you
34:17
S7: change your religious system in an eastern Middle Eastern culture, um,
34:21
S7: it is one of the greatest sins you can you
34:23
S7: can commit for the culture. You might as well drop
34:26
S7: a grenade into someone's living room. That's how much damage
34:28
S7: is done. Oftentimes when they convert to a different system
34:31
S7: of belief, including Christianity. So it isn't the intellectual issues,
34:35
S7: it's the consequences of what people hold on to, uh,
34:40
S7: that are often the real barriers. So my job as
34:42
S7: an apologist is to remove the intellectual barriers so people
34:46
S7: can see the real thing that's keeping them from becoming
34:48
S7: a Christ follower.
34:50
S4: Abdu Murray, our guest expert taking questions on faith, reason, culture, religion.
34:55
S4: Oh boy, this is good grace. If you want more,
34:59
S4: embrace to 800 555 7898 embrace to 800 555 7898.
35:07
S4: Coming up, I'm going to tell you a couple of
35:08
S4: text messages that come in. We'll get to both of
35:11
S4: them if we have time. How do we reconcile? God
35:15
S4: is omnipresent, but hell is separation from God. We'll tackle
35:18
S4: that one. Plus, who are the descendants of Ishmael? More
35:22
S4: coming up here on Karl and crew.
35:24
S1: Get in the know with life's biggest questions. It's Ask
35:27
S1: the Experts week with Karl and crew.
35:29
S4: Our guest expert this morning, Abdul Murray, has been tackling
35:33
S4: questions on faith, reason, culture, religion. How about this one?
35:36
S4: Who are the descendants of Ishmael?
35:40
S7: Yeah. So, um, this kind of depends on who is
35:42
S7: responding to the question. Um, Muslims will say that they
35:45
S7: are that Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael, and it
35:48
S7: goes through, um, Hagar or Hagar, um, and her line, um,
35:53
S7: because she's Egyptian and, uh, they go through, uh, so
35:58
S7: a muslim would say that, um, because Ishmael is the
36:00
S7: father of the Arabs, as even is prophesied in Genesis 16,
36:04
S7: and all these things, a great nation comes from him.
36:07
S7: And so, because she's Egyptian, uh, Hagar is the Arabs
36:11
S7: come from that line, and therefore Muhammad as a prophet,
36:15
S7: essentially is a prophet in the line of the great prophets,
36:19
S7: including Ishmael's father Abraham. And so that is a sense
36:22
S7: to legitimize Muhammad's office as prophet, even though he's an
36:27
S7: Arab and outside the family of the Jews. Um, or
36:30
S7: the Hebrews at that point. Uh, so that would be
36:33
S7: that would be the claim. Now, whether or not this
36:35
S7: is actually genetically proven or not is it's a matter
36:39
S7: of great dispute. It really is. But here's the thing
36:41
S7: that's interesting, just for our purposes and really quickly, is
36:45
S7: that let's assume for a moment the Arabs are the
36:47
S7: descendants of Ishmael, and that Islam in some way has
36:52
S7: some kind of a root ethnically, let's say, because Islam
36:55
S7: is an originally Arab religion. Um, let's assume that's true.
37:00
S7: The the thing that's beautiful about this is that at
37:03
S7: some point, Genesis actually describes the Ishmael and his progeny
37:08
S7: as being free people who are at odds, it seems,
37:12
S7: with the surrounding people around them, but really are free
37:15
S7: because the because Hagar, their their mother, essentially as an Egyptian,
37:19
S7: was bound as a slave or a servant to Sarah
37:24
S7: before she had children and even after. So the promise
37:27
S7: to Ishmael and his descendants is that you will be free,
37:30
S7: not that you will be constantly in opposition, but opposition
37:33
S7: happens because of freedom in distinction to your mother, who
37:35
S7: was a servant. So there's a blessing actually being given there,
37:39
S7: so that those same people will have the freedom to
37:43
S7: actually see that a descendancy from Abraham, whether it's ethnic
37:47
S7: or not, is actually a blessing, because they are being
37:51
S7: pointed towards the Messiah, who is the whole point of
37:56
S7: Abraham's blessing to be the father of many nations. And
38:00
S7: so instead of seeing them as our enemy, we should
38:02
S7: see the descendants of Ishmael as people who are promised
38:06
S7: that the Messiah will be for them as well.
38:09
S4: Abdu Murray, our guest this morning. You can text the
38:12
S4: word embrace to 800 555, 7898 for more details. 800
38:18
S4: 555 7898 just text embrace back to the text message. Question.
38:24
S4: How do we reconcile that God is omnipresent, but hell
38:27
S4: is separation from God.
38:29
S7: Yeah, and this comes down to how we have to
38:32
S7: clarify our terms sometimes. And this is very important, is
38:35
S7: that presence. We have to understand there are two forms
38:38
S7: of presence. One form of presence is what theologians have
38:42
S7: called in classical Christianity God's essential presence. And there's also
38:46
S7: his relational or gracious presence. God's presence is that he is,
38:51
S7: in fact, omnipresent because he is the source of all creation.
38:55
S7: He is not a being among beings. He is the
38:57
S7: source of all being, and therefore as the source of
39:01
S7: all being, he is essentially present everywhere. Everything is sustained
39:05
S7: by him. And since we do believe that God sustains
39:09
S7: all things that exist, and people who are in hell
39:12
S7: in fact, exist. He is therefore sustaining even their existence.
39:16
S7: In that sense. So he is essentially present even in
39:19
S7: a state of hell. But his relational presence, the presence
39:23
S7: where we can feel him and understand him and have
39:26
S7: communion with him that is absent. He withholds that because
39:30
S7: we have rejected it. And so in hell we don't
39:33
S7: feel his relational or gracious presence. We simply we just
39:37
S7: don't feel it. And in that sense, it also masks
39:40
S7: our ability to feel his essential presence. He is there.
39:44
S7: He's just not there in relationship with those who have
39:47
S7: chosen rejection of relationship with God. So, as C.S. Lewis
39:52
S7: famously put it in a summarization, hell is sort of
39:54
S7: locked from the inside. And it's not that God puts
39:57
S7: people there at the end of the end of the world,
40:00
S7: when we are judged God, there will be two people.
40:03
S7: So those who will say to God, thy will be done.
40:06
S7: And there will be those to whom God said, thy
40:08
S7: will be done, and they will get what they want.
40:10
S7: And if they wanted separation from his relational presence, they'll
40:14
S7: get that. But God is essentially everywhere, so he's omnipresent
40:18
S7: in his essentialness. He is absent in hell in terms
40:21
S7: of his relationship or his graciousness to those people because
40:24
S7: they've rejected it.
40:26
S6: Abdu Murray, our guest. This is epic. Guys. If you're
40:29
S6: getting this going, where can I get more? Text the
40:32
S6: word embrace to 800 555, 7898. I'm talking videos that
40:38
S6: highlight top 20 questions he's answered on university campuses in
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S6: adversarial situations. Epic content. Text embrace to 800 555 7898.
40:51
S6: Abdu I don't know if your covenant or dispensational and frankly,
40:54
S6: those brackets are too constricting in my view. Uh, but
40:58
S6: where do you see modern Israel versus ancient Israel today?
41:04
S7: Well, um, a couple of things. Is that the first
41:06
S7: thing I want to make sure I understand? I push
41:08
S7: all this from a biblical anthropology, and that anthropology tells
41:11
S7: me that all human beings are sinners. Uh, ancient Israel
41:15
S7: was full of people who were sinners, but also people
41:17
S7: who did wonderful things. So when those people sinned, they
41:20
S7: were judged. And we also have. And they repented. Um,
41:24
S7: and when they did the right thing, God rewarded them
41:26
S7: and applauded them. And so we ought to do the
41:28
S7: same thing. So modern Israel is a country run by
41:32
S7: people who are essentially or beset with sinful condition. So
41:37
S7: when they sin, we should criticize. When they do right,
41:40
S7: we should applaud, just like I do with myself and
41:43
S7: any other country. Having said that, how I look at
41:46
S7: this is that if Israel exists by God's, by by
41:50
S7: God's providence, it exists for a purpose, and that is
41:52
S7: to point people to the Messiah. Um, ultimately, the God
41:57
S7: of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of Israel,
42:00
S7: and that Israel definitely needs to understand who their Messiah is,
42:04
S7: and it's Jesus who is from their line. And Israel
42:08
S7: should exist to be a beacon and a light to
42:11
S7: the world about who the Messiah is. And so that's
42:15
S7: the ultimate fulfillment, and that's how the church should act,
42:18
S7: as well as a beacon to who the Messiah is.
42:20
S7: So that's kind of how I see it.
42:21
S6: I love it. Yeah, I'm my conviction, growing conviction is
42:25
S6: that Israel is Abraham, the father of all who believe
42:29
S6: Abraham is. It's it's a portal into saving connection with
42:35
S6: a loving God. And that's the greatest message that they carry.
42:40
S6: They carried. And that goes on today. Couple of questions
42:43
S6: here that are similar that are call ins here. Uh,
42:46
S6: so I'm going to give Ellie the floor from Aurora, Illinois. Ellie. Uh,
42:50
S6: what's your question?
42:53
S9: Hi. Good morning. Um, I have a son who's a
42:56
S9: senior in high school who has been evangelizing his friends
43:00
S9: and really just stepping out. He's at public high school.
43:03
S9: There's several Muslims at our high school because we're in
43:06
S9: a big Indian area, and one of his friends kind
43:10
S9: of jokingly expressed interest coming to church. But then use
43:14
S9: the caveat, well, you're not going to convert me. I'm
43:17
S9: just going to come for fun. What would you suggest
43:20
S9: for my son as a way to reach his Muslim friends,
43:23
S9: given the fact that, as you were talking earlier about
43:26
S9: the square and the Dot, you know that cultural fear
43:29
S9: of going against it? What would you how would you
43:32
S9: encourage him to reach his his friend?
43:35
S7: I am absolutely thrilled that he's doing this. And I'll
43:39
S7: and I'll tell you his his friend who jokingly said
43:42
S7: he'll come to church. And if he does say, you're
43:43
S7: not going to convert me. I got to tell you,
43:45
S7: that sounds not vaguely, but strangely familiar. I said the
43:49
S7: same things. I did the exact same stuff, and a
43:53
S7: muslim coming to church at all is actually kind of
43:55
S7: a big deal. So don't don't, um, discount that his
43:59
S7: attitude about sort of a resistance to these things is, um,
44:03
S7: a shield in some way that can't be penetrated. The
44:06
S7: fact that he's willing to come at all is kind
44:07
S7: of a big deal. So your son's doing the right thing.
44:10
S7: He's becoming aromatic. He's becoming the effervescence of Christ such
44:14
S7: that someone could say, I'll go to church. You won't
44:16
S7: convert me, but I'll go to church. Well, it took
44:18
S7: me nine years to become a Christian, and it didn't
44:21
S7: take me nine years because the answers were hard to find.
44:24
S7: It took me nine years because the answers were hard
44:26
S7: to accept. Um, and it was a bunch of Christians
44:30
S7: over time who witnessed to me, who gave me great
44:34
S7: reasons not only to believe what the Bible was saying
44:37
S7: was true, but that they were living it out. So
44:39
S7: your son may be one link in a long chain
44:42
S7: that essentially connects Muslims to Christ, including this guy. So
44:46
S7: ten years from now, he might come to faith and
44:49
S7: he'll have your son to thank for introducing him to
44:52
S7: the church life in the first place. So it's not
44:54
S7: that conversion will happen immediately, but it's just keep it up.
44:58
S7: Because if he is doing this and they think I'll
45:00
S7: go to church. Don't worry about the seeming resistance. Oftentimes
45:03
S7: I'll tell you this real quick. The more times people
45:06
S7: seem resistant, the more you're getting to them. That's what
45:08
S7: I did. I got more resistant the more they were
45:11
S7: actually getting to me. So take heart and keep it up.
45:14
S6: That's Agrippa esque. You know, we don't know if he's
45:17
S6: going to turn, but boy, you got to Pauline theology
45:20
S6: would say, put it out there. You don't know what
45:22
S6: God's going to do. Okay, uh, quick question. Um, we
45:26
S6: got this thing called share coming up. We got a
45:29
S6: whopper goal next week, and I do. I want to
45:32
S6: hear from your heart. Why would you say to those
45:35
S6: that are in the boom crew listening to all this
45:37
S6: content all week long, why get behind Christian radio? And
45:41
S6: you might say, yeah, don't do it.
45:43
S7: No, I'll say definitely do do it. Um, and, and
45:46
S7: here's why. And I'll make it very personal for me.
45:49
S7: When I was not a Christian, when I was a muslim,
45:52
S7: and I started hearing some things about the gospel, I
45:56
S7: tuned in to Christian radio. I hit the scan button
45:58
S7: back before there was iPods, I actually used my radio
46:01
S7: and hit the scan button.
46:01
S6: We got 40s subdued heads up.
46:04
S7: I heard Chris. I heard a Christian message that was
46:07
S7: so credible and so compelling on Christian radio as a non-Christian,
46:11
S7: that it started me thinking, this is actually not as
46:14
S7: dumb as I thought it was. And it started a
46:16
S7: part of that journey. So Christian radio reaches non-Christians. You
46:19
S7: might not think it does, but it does. So keep
46:21
S7: up the good work.
46:22
S6: Oh, okay. That's a banner ad right there. Ali.
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