Latest / Becker’s Healthcare - Clinical Leadership Podcast / Dr. Matthew Sullivan, Chief Medical Information Officer at Advocate Health - Southeast Region

Transcript

Dr. Matthew Sullivan, Chief Medical Information Officer at Advocate Health - Southeast Region · Becker’s Healthcare - Clinical Leadership Podcast

• 0:00
  Would you like to exchange best practices and ideas to improve care,
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  enhance operational efficiency,
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  and address financial challenges with your peers?
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  Becker's Healthcare is facilitating these conversations at their eighth annual
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  health, it digital health and R C M meeting.
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  You can check your eligibility for complimentary attendance at the link in the
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  description. We are excited to welcome you in October.
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  This is Laura Dedo with the Becker's Healthcare Podcast.
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  I'm thrilled today to be joined by Dr. Matt Sullivan,
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  chief Medical Information Officer of Advocate Health Southeast Region. Matt,
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  it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks.
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  For having me.
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  Now, I know we have a lot to talk about.
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  There are some really exciting things happening in technology and healthcare
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  right now, and especially what you're doing at Advocate Health, you know,
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  really being on the forefront of, of some of the big trends.
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  But before we dive into my questions,
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  can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background?
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  Uh, sure. I'm, I'm an emer an emergency physician originally by training and,
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  and then, uh, went back through sort of a super course like many and,
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  and became very interested in informatics. I'm, uh,
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  board certified in informatics and I've been working with our team here and in
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  the southeast for a long time. And, um, I'm really pleased that our,
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  our merger with our advocate, Aurora colleagues, has gone very well.
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  And now we have a larger team of great folks to work with.
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  So that's sort of the, the here and now.
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  Fantastic. Well, I, I'm glad that, um,
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  you're with us and I'm looking forward to our conversation.
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  From your perspective,
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  what do you really see as being some of the key opportunities that are ahead as
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  well as the headwinds you have your eye on right now?
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  Well, there's clearly always key opportunities in,
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  in smoothing over how our electronic interfaces, um, are,
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  are managed by both physicians and patients and our care teams that provide
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  care. So it's, um,
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  it's really part of our daily life to go in and think about how can we make
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  things smoother for our providers, smoother for our patients,
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  make sure their experience is excellent, and make sure that,
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  that we can weed out as much of the hassle factor, if you will, uh,
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  for everybody that touches, uh,
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  the electronic medical record or any of the systems, uh,
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  that we're responsible for. So that's, that's obviously always the undercurrent.
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  And then on top of that, what's coming in technology is,
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  obviously everyone's talking about, um,
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  large language models in AI and chat G P T and,
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  and how those things interface in the medical space is really, uh,
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  it's almost like you can't go to a conference without having a,
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  a brief period to talk through that.
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  There also are other technologies out there that we,
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  we've been looking at for years, but haven't quite put in play.
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  We haven't seen any really great uptake yet. And,
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  and we're always looking for what that next topic is.
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  Obviously with Covid, we went to a virtual, uh,
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  care model much faster than I think we ever intended.
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  And so there's a lot of new technology in that virtual care space.
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  There's a lot of technology where you can bring virtual inside the hospital and
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  use it, uh, remote, um, remote monitoring, remote consultation, uh,
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  remote nursing. There's,
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  there's lots of things that we're thinking about how to make, uh,
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  our business model work so that it's really seamless,
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  really easy,
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  that the work is a little bit more tolerable and that we can do more with less.
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  Cuz clearly we've been struggling here.
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  All of us in healthcare dealing with nursing shortages and physician shortages
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  will have been forecasted as well. So we,
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  we've gotta think about how to do things smarter and how to do things a little
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  bit faster with less people,
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  and that's where technology can fill some of those gaps. So that's,
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  that's where we're looking. Uh,
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  and then there's always sort of the one-off technologies where something really,
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  uh, innovative comes up that we're, we're constantly scanning for,
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  but for the most part, you, you know, the, you ask about, uh,
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  or what are the headwinds? Well,
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  part of that is that this is a financially difficult time for healthcare.
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  Uh, certainly ha that's not new news that's, that's been around for a while.
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  How do we do things where we're actually not, uh,
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  hemorrhaging money into solutions that don't return on investment?
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  And how do we partner with, uh,
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  other electronic vendors and companies to deliver things that have a return on
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  investment for both parties? Um, how do we, uh,
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  set up at risk contracts to really be mindful of what,
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  what are you actually achieving and how are you taking care of patients better?
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  What are the outcomes that we have to have in order to justify the expense for
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  our software and our,
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  and our solutions that we bring into the patient care arena?
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  So those are kind of the hard parts about the daily job,
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  and I think those are not unique to me, but certainly, uh, probably, uh,
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  struggles with every one of our healthcare systems.
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  Absolutely. I think you're right. I know a lot of organizations are,
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  are really in the similar place as you were mentioning in terms of, um,
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  trying to make sure that, you know, you're covering, uh, um,
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  for any staffing shortages, um,
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  tackling some financial challenges and maybe fewer resources than you've had in
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  the past, but really, um, you know,
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  still needing to invest in the core technologies that are making it possible,
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  um,
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  to deliver great care and really look to the future for what healthcare is gonna
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  look like. I really appreciate you bringing up, um,
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  especially the virtual care aspect of it. I know that during the pandemic, um,
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  that accelerator really quickly and,
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  and definitely the technologies continue to evolve. Do you see that, um,
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  you're in a relatively good spot at the moment in terms of some of the virtual
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  care or, or are, is the technology and, um,
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  capabilities around that still changing pretty quickly and advancing and moving
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  forward, um, at, at a rapid pace?
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  Well, I think we have what we need from a technology perspective. You know,
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  that's, that's been proven that the technology works well.
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  I think many of us are dealing with virtual ICUs and virtual care pretty
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  consistently across the board. The question is, is how do we make it easy?
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  How do we make it easy for patients? How do we make it easy for, um,
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  the physicians?
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  How do we reach out to different audiences that we otherwise wouldn't have
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  touched?
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  And really sort of expand and grow that model while still maintaining some
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  degree of reimbursement for that,
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  because the technology and the people who staff it and the positions and all
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  the, all of that, all the, the necessary parts are expensive.
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  And, um, so I think a lot of people were,
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  were really happy when we extended some of the,
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  the billing and coding, uh, I don't know what to call,
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  sort of changes that were brought about via covid and that we've been able to
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  persist there in some way to continue to make this an opportunity or
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  an option for patients.
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  And it's about giving our patients better options that makes it really
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  appealing. Not everybody has time to go to a brick and mortar visit,
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  and in fact, many of the times you may not need to, uh,
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  particularly for simple things.
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  And that then allows us to frameshift what we can use our,
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  our physical spaces for,
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  and how do we then frameshift into more higher acuity coming out of the
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  hospital to places like hospital at home where we could use virtual
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  technology as well,
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  remote patient monitoring and a whole bunch of other tools that will allow us to
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  take great care of patients, uh,
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  in a place that's perhaps maybe not as expensive and show that the outcomes
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  that they have are as good or better. And that's, I think,
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  a really fun place to be, uh, in this time.
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  Absolutely. I love that. I, I think that's great to hear and, and definitely,
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  um, a lot of exciting things ahead. Um, from your perspective,
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  how do you think about growth and adding value to the organization overall,
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  especially in your unique place as C Mio?
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  Well, that's a very broad question. Um, I'll try my best to answer it. .
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  I think that the value of the C M I O role for the organization is in trying to
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  help people understand where technology plays a role to help their business line
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  grow or help their business line become more efficient,
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  and also help them understand where technology doesn't
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  need to be at play. It's an interesting sort of concept to think about,
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  but technology can help and hurt,
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  and with the wrong workflows or with the wrong arrangement,
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  it can really be really disadvantageous to certain people.
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  And I think if you talk to any C M I O,
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  I think most of us understand that in those conversations,
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  it becomes very clear that sometimes adding more stuff to the computer
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  isn't helpful and making it more simplistic is helpful or making
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  it more mobile depending on the circumstance and trying to make sure that
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  people aren't having to do duplicative work or work that was already done,
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  but just can't be seen in the right way.
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  And so I think all of those small steps add up to a
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  tremendous value as it relates to physician efficiency,
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  nursing efficiency, and all of the care team.
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  And I think, I think people understand that concept. Um,
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  but as particularly in our,
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  in our space where we have a large footprint and large healthcare system,
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  that's a lot of work. And so there's a lot of, um,
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  a lot of folks on our team that are doing great work, and we,
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  and we have to let them do their, their thing without,
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  there can't be one , it's not one cmi.
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  There's a bunch of people that are required because those conversations happen
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  all the time. And sometimes you, uh,
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  are very intentional about those conversations,
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  and sometimes you just stumble across them in the midst of other work rounding
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  and talking to people and seeing problems. And so I think that,
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  you know, it's very hard to quantify the value,
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  but it's very easy to talk about what the value is.
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  And I think when you talk to people about how we bring value to an organization,
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  I think they understand it. And, um, and that's nice. I mean,
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  from my perspective, that's, it's a, it's a great job. It's a fun thing to do,
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  and I really enjoy talking to all sorts of folks. Uh,
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  and that's one of the reasons that I,
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  I chose to do this is instead of just doing one thing or one type of medicine,
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  I now get to talk to lots of physicians and lots of nurses that do lots of
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  different things. And I'm just reflecting on my own day.
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  I'm like halfway through the day and I've already touched four or five different
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  groups of people and,
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  and hopefully made a difference in helping them solve some of their problems to
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  make their lives easier and get rid of some of the, the rough edges,
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  if you will, to make healthcare, uh, smooth,
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  more efficient and more cost effective.
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  Absolutely. I love that. I, I think that's such a great description of how, um,
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  you know,
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  you really play such an important role within the whole healthcare system and
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  our, our, um, bridge between so many different departments that are crucial to,
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  to making things run well and making sure patients get the care they need. Now,
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  I know we've talked a little bit about some of the challenges that healthcare
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  organizations are facing right now, and, um, you know,
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  with limited resources to boots, so, uh, um,
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  for hospitals and health systems who are looking to still, um, you know,
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  invest their, their healthcare resources wisely, where do you see,
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  is it still important to make investments both financial or, or, um,
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  manpower, resources, et cetera? Um, so that, you know, as time goes on,
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  uh,
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  you're prepared to continue to provide great care to the community and really,
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  um, be in the best position possible to take advantage of the technology and
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  capabilities as they evolve? Well.
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  That's also a very broad question, so I'll, I'll take a stab at portions of it.
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  I think part of it is, um, I think there's an acknowledgement,
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  although everyone hates talking about it,
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  but there's an acknowledgement that security is a major issue in healthcare.
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  And so I think any investment in cybersecurity is, is just required. Um,
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  it's unfortunate, um, and I think all of us hate it,
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  but the reality of today's environment is that being held at ransom without
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  the right electronic tools to take the care of patients that frankly
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  we've been taking care of now in this manner for over a decade or more,
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  it's really puts a strain on healthcare and the healthcare systems.
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  And so I think cybersecurity,
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  even though maybe not the sexiest of topics for some,
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  it's really, it's, it's quintessential to survival. And so,
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  you know, putting those kind of things in play are costly,
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  and I think that's, that's difficult, but is, um,
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  one of the challenges that we have in healthcare. And once,
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  once you cover that base and you feel like you've got some degree of security,
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  then I think you can really start looking at where can we make a difference
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  in? And the first thing I think about is not wasting a bunch of money.
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  And so trying to rely on some of your core,
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  core value systems that you've implemented your EMR as a primary driver PAC
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  system, et cetera,
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  and use those in every place that you can and maximize the tools that you have,
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  is really critical to not wasting a bunch of money
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  and hopefully if, if you're a good steward in that way,
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  there's a little bit left over to explore
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  new things or improved ways to care for patients using electronic tools.
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  And that's why I have a hard time with, um,
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  going to any sort of conference because there's a,
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  there's a thousand things to look at and it's incredibly difficult to figure out
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  if any of them are gonna make a huge difference in the care of patients.
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  And so it becomes a game of whack-a-mole who's got the shiniest object is really
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  not the way to do business. And so we're trying, you know, to,
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  to change that mi mindset into, uh, don't come with a solution,
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  come to us with a problem so that we can start,
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  really start to think about what is the problem to solve.
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  And once you know what the problem to solve is,
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  then you can break that down and understand how to apply the tools that you
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  already own, um, how to change the tools that you already own,
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  how to use things in combination that might give the outcome you're looking for,
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  um,
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  or whether you have to go out and look for a different solution altogether and
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  what that will cost. And those are the hard questions. Really, really, the hard,
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  hard part is not wasting a bunch of money to try to solve something
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  that either doesn't need to be solved or is, you know,
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  superfluous in some way as it relates to the core mission of caring for
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  patients. That's hard, hard to say.
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  It makes you makes my job often the person that that says,
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  no, we can't do that, or No, we really,
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  the answer is we really shouldn't do that.
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  We really need to take those resources and put them somewhere else because there
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  are lots of problems to be solved in healthcare and there are a lot of solutions
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  there. And so I I think that's a,
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  that's a fairly generic answer and I apologize,
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  but that's just sort of the mindset of, of how you have to go about the day.
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  Absolutely. And I, I think those are really great points in terms of, um,
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  you know,
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  making sure that any kind of in investment really is gonna have that return as
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  much as possible in patient care or, or for the health system overall,
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  I think is so crucial and critical, um,
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  to be so mindful about that now more than ever.
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  And certainly it seems like a lot of organizations are trying to find that
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  right, uh, mix or secret sauce. And in definitely, you know,
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  when you're talking about, um, having so many different options in front of you,
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  it, it, there's a lot out there. It's a very noisy space. And so, um,
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  as much as possible simplifying it, it sounds like, um,
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  I appreciate you talking through your method and process for getting to that
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  space.
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  Yeah, I like that term. It's a noisy space. I think that's absolutely true.
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  And trying to get the signal to noise ratio to be good is, uh,
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  is really the secret sauce.
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  Absolutely. Absolutely. And it'll be fascinating to see how the field evolves.
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  Um, from your perspective, if you were looking ahead maybe one to two years, um,
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  how do you see things evolving?
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  I know you mentioned AI and artificial intelligence, um,
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  and some of the other ways that technology has been evolved quickly, um,
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  in the past even few months to, to really make a difference in healthcare.
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  Is that something that you still have your eye on or,
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  or how do you see the tech technology in healthcare, uh,
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  space and intersection changing over the next few years?
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  Well, I think it,
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  it would be remiss to say that you ha you could ignore artificial intelligence
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  in some way. I don't think it's something that you can ignore.
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  You have to not necessarily embrace it,
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  but you have to be a aware of it and you have to build the right, uh,
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  guardrails around it to be used successfully. And again,
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  as we've talked a little bit about here today, you know,
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  at what cost and for what function,
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  if there's really a problem to solve and AI helps solve that problem
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  in a very efficient way, well that's something that that's,
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  that's something you'd wanna look closely at. And we haven't seen, you know,
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  a ton of that.
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  There's been obviously some things in the imaging space that are quite good. Um,
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  and then, then you've gotta then ask the hard question of,
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  I recognize that this is capable of doing this task.
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  Why do we need to replace it with the task that we're doing now? And that's,
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  that's where it gets challenging, right? I mean, it's,
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  it's not easy for us to think about replacing components
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  of what, what nurses and physicians have done in the past, um,
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  because that's our job. We, we don't wanna see it as a replacement,
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  but at the same time, sort of steal from another, you know, technology leader,
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  uh, steal their quote,
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  this is not gonna replace a is not AI is not gonna replace positions,
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  but physicians that use AI will definitely replace physicians who don't. Uh,
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  but then to what end, you know, are we gonna be using AI to write notes?
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  I don't know. Probably it's very likely that that technology in,
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  in combination with other technologies will allow us to be much more efficient
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  in our note taking in the future.
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  And unburdening clinicians with documentation would be a
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  huge win for healthcare and it would make the job fun.
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  Uh, and, and I, I believe the job still is fun,
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  but I think it would make it more fun for those people who are, uh,
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  burdened by documentation. In addition, um,
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  you know, we, we have lots of behind the scenes processes,
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  whether it has to do with prior authorization,
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  whether it has to do with just simple notes, uh, to patients or,
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  or authorizations for care or anything that we can do to use AI
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  to unburden that, that documentation they'll use,
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  that sits in the background. That's hugely valuable because we,
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  we have lots of people that spend tons of time doing that kind of work.
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  And that's where I think, you know,
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  remote process automation where we just keep, you know,
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  repetitively doing the same thing over and over and,
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  and automating some of that work is probably where I see us really
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  being successful here in the next four to five years.
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  I know that that some of the,
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  the chat G P T stuff is really good and getting much better and
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  has certainly taken the headlines,
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  but I'm still not exactly sure if we can quantify
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  what the value is very easily. I think there are places where we can and,
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  and we'll have to go roll our sleeves up and figure that out. But,
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  you know, using process automation to get through some of the behind the scenes
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  stuff that, that people are doing now, I think it's gonna be cost effective.
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  We'll, we'll have to see how it plays out, but.
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  Absolutely. That's such a great point and definitely, you know,
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  a lot of experimentation happening with AI and in generative AI for sure.
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  And certainly, um, you know,
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  exciting to see the spaces where it's being helpful. And then too, I know,
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  you know, making sure that, as you mentioned, um, moving forward, um,
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  responsibly with within and ethically, I know, um,
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  it's such a big concern. And we talked about cybersecurity as well earlier,
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  just being top of mind for so many healthcare organizations as things evolve.
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  So it'll be fascinating to see this and, you know, continue the conversation,
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  um, in October during the Health IT Digital Health and Revenue Cycle event. Um,
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  I'm excited you'll be able to be there and speaking,
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  and I'm looking forward to meeting you in person.
• 21:13
  Well, thanks for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate it.
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