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Fantasy and Family with S.L. Dooley · WriterCon

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This week on the writer Con podcast, I would say what has helped me,
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for sure to continually assess is know why you're writing. Welcome to writer
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Con, a gathering place for writers to share their knowledge about writing and the
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writing world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, award winning author of
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the want lnd Files book series. Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, and hey
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they're writers. Thanks for joining us. As this podcast is being released,
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we're just a few days away from embarking on the writer Con cruise. Of
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course, regular listeners may recall that Laura told us like a month and a
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half ago that she was already packing her bag. You got that bag ready
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yet, honey. Well, when I had that kind of impromptu a trip
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to York, it disrupted my cruise packing. But I have close to my
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outfits kind of picked up and hanging ready to go back into the bag.
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So I'm I'm I'm super close. Fabulous. And Jesse, you're coming on
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the cruise. You're gonna speak on audio books and podcasts and other related matters.
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And your wife Michelle is coming to the writer sessions, right, that's
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correct. Do you think you can handle another cruise so close to the heels
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of the Star Trek. This sounds weird because I'm there and I'm working and
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I'm talking to people about work I do. But it is so much more
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relaxing for me being on the writer con Cruise and the Star Trek Cruise because
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I'm not going to the Writer's panels, so i have a lot of time
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to kill. I learned a lot about ro Caribbean chips from watching their shows
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on the TV. I'm gonna try to get out of my room a little
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more this time, so that sounds reasonable. There's lots to do. There's
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lots of fun stuff to do. There is. I'm gonna do all the
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slides, hopefully it'll be as windy as last time. And oh and we're
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going to do an episode of the podcast. We are going to because I'm
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very excited because I learned how to use both this over the complicated but I
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have I have two sets of road wireless goes, and I've discovered I can
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plug both of the receivers into my computers, meaning I can have four wireless
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laugh mics going at the same time, which means for everybody. Yeah,
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for our audience, the watching now who have watched the Cruise one. You
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didn't see me because I edited out, but I was constantly taking microphones off
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people and putting it on. This will be a lot smoother. I'm very
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much looking forward to that. Well, I am too, now, Holy
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smokes. All right. Our guest today is Stephanie Dooley, who writes as
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sl Dooley. She's the award winning author of the Portal Slayer trilogy, and
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she has a new book out, not in the trilogy but still wonderful,
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called The Cold Moon Carnival. This is the exciting conclusion to her fantasy duology.
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That means two books, right, Jesse. The duology it started last
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year with the release of The Summertime Circus. These stories blend magic, adventure,
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and family in a race against time. We'll talk to her about all
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this and more, but first the news. Well, here's a headline you
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probably never expected to hear leading off our news section on the writer Con podcast,
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but here it is. The headline poetry had a great year. I
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should have mentioned this back when we were doing our year in wrap up,
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but I don't know. Maybe some of you might not have noticed, but
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in twenty twenty three, this is accurate, the poetry market had its biggest
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year since accurate records began. That was in part boosted by pop stars releasing
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poetry books and of course the Insta poets space with people like Rupie Carr.
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Plus there was a new and groundbreaking translation of Homer, you know, the
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Iliad and the Odyssey, which is also poetry, and so it was a
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terrific year for poetry. The past eight years it's been more spotty. We
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had the Insta poet craze, which of course was basically kickstarted by Rupee Carr.
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Her book Milk and Honey came out in twenty fifteen, and it's been
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selling well ever since. I mean, I've seen it at mall's at the
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store is Katie takes me to Franciscics and whatnot. And if it's at the
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mall, you know it's popular. She is Indian by birth but Canadian and
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has sold a lot of books. According to books book Scan, she is
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the fourth best selling poet I mean lifetime achievement totals since BookScan started keeping numbers.
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She is trailing only Ted Hughes, you know, former ex of Sylvia
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Plath, later British poet laureate Pam Ayres, and Seamus Haney, who's fairly
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recently passed, but when he was alive people said he was the greatest living
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poet. Milk and Honey has never been out of the top five of poetry
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books. It's done exceptionally well. And there are others. There are new
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people like Donna Ashworth, who's got a great book called History. We'll remember
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when the work stopped and I mentioned pop stars, I'm thinking of Lana del
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Rey, you know, music recording artists. I've got one of her records,
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although I don't think it's behind your head right at the moment, Lara,
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but it could because we've got it. Anyway. She published a book
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called Violet Bit Backwards over the Grass back in twenty twenty, and that's been
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a huge hit. Moly Wilson is the woman who did the Homer translations.
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And between all that and hold your breath for this, Rupee Carr has actually
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appeared on the Tonight Show. Poetry is more successful than it has ever been,
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certainly since the eighteenth century or nineteenth I'm going to say, Laura,
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is it possible one day writing poetry could actually be profitable. Well, it
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is right now for Ruby Carr. Yeah, I'm going to develop a reputation
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of being the Debbie Downer. But I think it always seems to me that
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there are people who do manage to break out and things do very well for
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them, and then anyone who comes behind and tries to following those footsteps or
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mimic that popularity never quite catch on quite as well. So it is for
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them, and I'm so happy that. I love that they have brought poetry
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to the forefront. We're big fans. You know that we wrote poetry to
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each other when we first started dating, and some of that's in one of
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my books. But yes, I still have mine. Yes I have three
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books of poetry, and none of them made the list. Oddly enough,
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during poetry's biggest year, I don't know what stuff. So the breaks out,
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the breakouts, the celebrities, people who who already have an audience seem
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to continue to find that success. Well, Jesse's put up a picture of
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one of Rupee Carr's works, because I think not everyone is completely familiar with
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what she's doing, which is a little bit different. I hope she doesn't
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mind us showing this. But you know, Instagram is typically visual. You
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know, it's people posting photographs. But what she has done is illustrated her
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poems, which are usually relatively short and not particularly mysterious. I'm not saying
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they very touching. Yeah, let me just say I am actually a huge
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fan of hers, and I do follow her on Instagram. I love what
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she writes, and it's very very women focused. Well, but it's not
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the sort of thing you're going to read and think I don't even understand what
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that was about. It's access. Yes, it's very relatable, Jesse.
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I see you more as somebody who's staying up late at night doom scrolling or
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maybe just sensitive scrolling poetry on your phone late at night. Am I right
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about this? I've always listened. I have an appreciation for poetry. I
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have an understanding of like what what makes a poem easy to read, what
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makes a poem difficult to read? What makes a poem worth reading? And
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I do think there is, especially in our very social media focused world,
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there is a talent to writing things in short, little bursts, and so
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I do think this is a talent that up until recently, people had that
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there was no, there was no make money off it, right, and
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now maybe there is. So I'm excited for this sort of new you know,
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a sort of new avenue for for poetry. I would love if poetry
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like came back, big Pope like. Poetry is awesome. It's just not
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like our society was designed to force us sort of to not enjoy or want
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to read poetry. Right, right, let's let's bring it back. So
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it's right, it'll be out of English class or Billy Collins once said,
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where you know, he just wants to talk about poetry, but the students
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want to tie it to a chair and beat it to death, Like what
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does this mean? Just enjoy it, listen, just let's let's let's all
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wait for Taylor Swift to release the poetry book and then poetry there we go.
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What I'm saying, she would definitely have success as a as a poet.
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Yep, yeah, it's just a matter of time, all right.
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News story number two this has to do with the author JD. Barker,
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who made a request of book talk influencers that some felt was what's the word
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creepy? He has apologized since to his credit. Let me explain what happened
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from the top. So author J. D. Barker Very Successful is apologizing
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for a January twenty six email pitch in which he invited a number of high
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profile influencers, most of them young women. But of course that's most of
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the book talk influencers, right. Anyway, he was trying to get his
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new book promoted and suggested some using his word racy sponsored content to promote it.
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It went on to ask influencers to create original content to promote this book.
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It's called behind a closed Door. He offered a fee. There's a
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tiered scale of how many followers they have translates into so much money. But
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in order to be approved, the posts had to include the book's cover image,
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some specific hashtags, and they were encouraged to again quote, let creativity
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rule, and embrace the fact that quote this book is spicy. He also
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offered a few video ideas, which the email purported to be quote currently in
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the works by other influencers. Some of these ideas included a video with quote,
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a camera pan up or down the body using only the book to cover
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up your naughty bits in quote, or a video about quote the most taboo
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place you've ever had sex in quote. A number of the TikTok influencers aired
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their grievances, and in the aftermath, Barker has been dropped by his agent.
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His publisher is being quiet. They're apparently on the fence or something.
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But anyway, one book talk user said, this is a quote. I
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just got such a predatory email from an author wanting me to promote their book.
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This is creepy as f behavior, and I'm honestly so grossed out.
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To his credit, Barker has insisted that the initial email was not issued by
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him or approved by him, but quote sent by one of the many PR
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firms I hired to promote to promote my latest title end quote. The problem
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with that is that it doesn't mention that Barker is a co founder of that
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PR firm, But he has, I think, understood that maybe this wasn't
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the best way to do things and has apologized. So, Laura, are
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you inclined to attribute this to cluelessness or poor oversight, or a book marketing
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gun very wrong, or what all of the above? I see all of
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that, Like, I completely understand the urge to want to get picked up
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by sure influence who sure, But I also kind of hate that, just
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like we don't want to pay for reviews or pay, but we do pay
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for advertising, and you could see that this is kind of a means of
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paying for advertising. I don't know, it's it's it's a tough market and
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I understand the idea, and well do I mean, explain it to me?
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Because as I mentioned both, most book talk influencers are young women,
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but their audience is mostly young women too, right, So who's going to
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want to see this video where the book is covering up their quote naughty bits?
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Right? Who's the target for that? So? I think that's your
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book marketing gone very wrong, prong of the three prong issue with this whole
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idea. You're exactly right, how's this gonna This just isn't how you sell
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romance to young women? Right? Okayjesse? So if just say anyone,
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we won't name any names, but if someone offered you money to hold up
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their book in a suggestive way, maybe somebody who writes legal thrillers or a
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woman who writes ghost stories, would you be willing to do it? I
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mean, would I do it? I mean you should ask about the pay
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scale, but yeah, oh yes, I should ask yes, how much
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I get paid? First? No, I mean like this definitely sounds like
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I mean, yes, he probably should have made more clear that he was
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involved, like a co owner of the PR company, But this really does
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seem like a PR thing just gone haywire, where like they were just so
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desperate to get on book talk they were like, all right, these are
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all the things that we think will work, and they really should have like
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been more in commonversation with these book talk influencers and less like do these things
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yeah and right. But it does feel, especially if I imagine the people
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writing these messages were men writing to these young women, like this is why
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you want like a diverse group of people to work with, because someone probably
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would have flagged this and be like, hey, maybe this is gonna come
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off creepy. Like everyone everyone has a digital voice, right, And it
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took me a couple of years working in offices to discover that, Like when
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I was frustrated or rushed, I had what I what I called asshole email
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voice where I was just trying to be concise, but it came off sounding
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very mean. And I think a lot of times it's just like having someone
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else look these things over and like think about it before saying this is excellent
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point. Yes, very good point. If it's true it got sent out
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before it was done, that's precisely what happened here. Yeah. Yeah,
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probably someone who's not in a PR firm that you partly founded and own.
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I think it would be the best place to go. Yeah, I better
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put even more pressure on them to get you know, yeah, I mean,
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like, you know, like the sort of the non spoken pressure that
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you would have if the co owner of your company who pays you money is
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like, we want this on book talk. You're like, all right,
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I'll do it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I apologize for
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that question, Jessee. I was just trying to come up with a question
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as creepy as this PR request. I'm a grown up white man, like
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I have different responses to creepiness than you know, the the very Fantastic Women
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book talk. I'll just go ahead and tell you I'm not an influencer by
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any means. But if someone sent me an email asking me if I would
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take a video of myself basically naked with just their book covering up my naughty
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bits, yeah, yes, he Bail's not fair. You lost your question,
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Yeah, because like, uh, you're one of my client British things.
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Yeah, it does sound yeah, yeah, the guy British. Yeah,
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I do anything for my life, so you asking me to do that,
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I'm make sure there's a power balance here and that's the way of the
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publishing world. This week, Jesse, let's talk to sl Dooley. Steph,
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Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Hey,
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traditional first question on this podcast. You probably know it already. If
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you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be. There
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is so much out there, probably too much, but I would say what
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has helped me, for sure to continually assess is know why you're writing.
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It's different for everyone, but I think it's important to keep that kind of
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front of mind just throughout your career. Mm hmmm. Well, then the
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obvious follow up would be why are you writing? Yeah, so we went
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there. No, it's a fair question and certainly has changed over the seasons.
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Uh, you know, early on I was writing just to process you
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know, my own you know, mental health and and writing for kids,
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and you know it's evolved over time, and but you know, for the
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most part, I would say that it is always foremost I write for God
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and so that has maintained a constant. But I would say, right now,
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I'm writing for kind of the disillusioned millennials, and I keep that reader,
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that particular reader right out front. That's a big target audience, So
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that you should I think that should work. Yes, am I right?
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And thinking? Your most recent book is The Cold Moon Carnival, right,
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Yes, that came out on Leap Day. Yeah, fantastic. Well tell
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us about that. Oh wow, So that is the follow up for the
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Summertime Circus. So it's a duology. The series or the duologies complete now
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and so it finished up that story. But I just really wanted to do
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my main bread and butter is portal fantasy, but I wanted to do something
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completely different, high fantasy, elves, dragons, you know, the whole
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thing. So that was kind of I just had fun with it. It
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was like being in a playground. It was a lot of fun. You've
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got a big surprise in this book, which apparently or I have read,
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comes from your RPG gaming. And I love games, not necessarily role playing
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games, but I love games. So I have to ask, what is
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this? Without giving away this surprise, can you get a part way there.
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Absolutely, So it's already up on YouTube. Twisted Tabletop produced the It's
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a three campaign or a three series campaign that we did based in the story
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world, so it brings in the history, so it goes way back.
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But yeah, and that's kind of all I can say without you know,
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giving away some of the surprise in the story, particularly for those who were
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you know, did the campaign with me. I'm excited to see their reaction
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to what they'll find and some of those crossovers. But I love I love
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dabbling in different media, especially when you're in the story and bringing those different
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elements in. So you're saying these were like role playing manuals so people could
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play in your world. Am I understanding this right? Well, this was
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a campaign that we actually recorded. Uh so, I'm actually one of the
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players, and then there were three other three other players. We're it is.
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It is literally like Dungeons and Dragons role playing and you have someone who
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is leading, and it was intimidating. It was the first time I'd been
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I'd ever done role playing and it's recorded, and so there was I felt
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like a lot of pressure, you know, to be on all the time.
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Oh, I bet you were great, it was fun. You mentioned
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dragons, and I understand that you have dragon wars in your book. Are
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dragons just mandatory and fantasy fiction? Now you know it? Definitely, I
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wouldn't say mandatory, but and not all fantasy have them, but you can
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see the reader's perk up when you find out there's dragons in the story.
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I kind of feel like it's become a genre expectation, honestly. I mean,
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Lord of the Ring is kind of it's held up as like the premium
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fantasy novel, and of course we have smog in that, so I feel
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like it is kind of an expectation. Yeah, yeah, for sure,
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for sure, And that was even in my portal fantasies, you know,
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if we have some nods toward uh, dragon lore and things like that.
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So yeah, yeah, it's fun. Yeah. Maybe since there might be
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other people my age, maybe you should explain what portal fantasy is, right,
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So portal fantasy, of course, there's so many you don't even think
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of being portal fantasy, like, for example, Harry Potter is technically a
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portal fantasy. Uhs exactly. You're you're going through nine and three quarters,
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you're entering into a whole different world. There's some layering in some of that
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which brings in some urban fantasy elements as well. So with my portal fantasy,
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we're literally dealing the trilogy that my very first books that came out are
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called Portal Slayers, So it's very you know, it's not just a suggestion.
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It is an actual portal, uh that you know have to be closed.
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So it's it's taking people from our world and things that are familiar to
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us and then dropping them into whatever different world it is. So you're it
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could be an actual portal, it could be something different. Okay. I
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love portal fantasy. I think it's so fun to think about. It's almost
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like an alternate universe. It's there, but just out of sight. I
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love it. Yes, exactly. Your author bio says you collect old books
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and new journals. Can you tell us about that hobby? Well, yeah,
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so, any we love to travel, my husband and I and when
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the kids were at home, we traveled as family, and that was kind
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of a criteria that we always found the local antique or vintage booked store,
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used bookstore, and we would literally go in and scatter for who could find
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the oldest book in the store fun. It was a blast, and so
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we always had to leave room in our suitcases for whatever books we came home
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with. So that's the old book and I still do. I love going
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to old vintage bookstores just because the stories themselves, and I do read a
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lot of them, not all of them, but just the books are just
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beautiful. They represent so much history, so I just love owning them.
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And then new journals. I have probably hundreds of them, and most of
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them only half written in because I'm ready for the next new one before I
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can ever complete them. If a journal is too nice, I won't write
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in it. And it makes Bill crazy. She's like, it's meant to
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be written in. I'm like, but it's so beautiful. I want to
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just preserve it. And honestly, I have a very old copy of Alice
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in Wonderland that I got exact same way. I just happened to be in
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an old vintage bookstore and there there it was, and it called to me.
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I still have it. Oh, that's awesie. That's the kind of
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like little nuggets of gold that I'm looking for is something that a lot of
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it you don't recognize, but when you find the ones that the Mark Twain.
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You know, it's just yes, yes, yeah, I've heard you
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talk about a lot of story ideas, not just dragons, but all kinds.
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What do you do Where do you get ideas or how do you spark
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ideas when you're trying to write? Wow, I wish maybe you don't need
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to do they just come or I know that you know, it seems like
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authors either never have this problem or struggle with it. There's not like a
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happy medium where it's like, you know, when the time comes, I
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tend to happen upon the I just I have so many ideas written down and
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so many stories that I am. I just wonder sometimes if I'll be able
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to write them all in my lifetime. Just I just they just I don't
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know, spaw, I'm out of nowhere if I think we're writing soul sisters.
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Honestly, because I'm the same way. I often get asked, well,
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what do you do when you have writer's block? And like you,
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I'm like, I know people talk about having this problem, but I I'm
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usually just I'm usually just fighting for time to write. So I kind of
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get that. Have you have you ever encountered a time when you had trouble,
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you felt stuck? Did you have to do something to move forward?
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The only time I ever feel really stuck is during the editing process. That
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is not that is not my Yeah, that's where I really struggle to like
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sit down, work through it. I want to start with the new ideas,
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the fresh and shiny you know. But I don't know about you,
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But I don't know. I usually I am juggling a couple of different projects
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at one time. I haven't. Yes, I have done that, and
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I am doing it right now. Yes, yes, yes, so I
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could. Yeah, so I can. Usually if I do I'm like stuck
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a little bit, then I'll just go to the other short story that I'm
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writing, or you know, I've got a couple of anthologies that i'm writing
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some short stories for. So yeah, I always have something to keep me
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busy. I just need to take a bath. The second I get into
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the water and sit back and relax, it's like there it is now,
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I know, now I know what I need to do. Ah, that's
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a good idea. Okay, I'll have to I'll have to check that one
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away. I like that. How did you get started writing? You know?
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It was kind of maybe a two stage. First, I always have,
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I've always even since I as soon as I was able to understand story,
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I was writing stories. But as you get older, some of that
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magic dwindles a bit. And so when I started college, I started as
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pre med. So yeah, and I didn't do real well, and I
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think it's because I was trying to be something that I wasn't. And so
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once I found, you know, the English department, and found my kindred
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souls, it was off to the races. Fantastic, all right. This
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is another traditional question that we ask our guests. Are you a panser or
28:08
a planner? So do you work from an outline or do you write from
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the seat of your pants? So I wish I don't have like an easy
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answer to that. I would love to just say, oh, I'm a
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I'm a pants and I just the story just comes. I do usually start
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with a very loose outline. I don't do a real hard, firm one.
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And I know there are people who like, once their outline's done,
28:32
most of the book is written right, and that's nothing like what I do.
28:36
But I look at it as more kind of a sedimentary writing where I
28:41
go through from beginning to end usually pantsing along the way that I start with
28:48
the plot, so not a lot of characterizations. Some of the other elements
28:51
are very rudimentary, and then I build on that. So then the characters
28:56
and the characterization starts, and then setting, you know, get some of
29:00
its window dressing. So I kind of come at it from you know,
29:03
I take so many different layers to get the story written. Oh that makes
29:10
that makes total sense to me. I do. I work from that outline,
29:12
but there's going to always be development as I start writing it and the
29:18
themes become clear to me and yeah, it's got the recurring motifs and whatnot.
29:22
So yeah, what does a typical writing day look like for you?
29:30
Your process? Do you if you have special time that you're able to set
29:33
aside or are you right? So, oh gosh, and that that is
29:40
one thing I think I'm still learning or I feel like I had a season
29:45
for it, and it's kind of exploded a bit. I don't I'm not
29:48
a morning person, so it has to be in the afternoon, and so
29:52
that time has to be guarded so just so carefully because by the time I'm
29:57
ready to write and I feel primed, everything else in the whole world is
30:02
happening, you know. Yeah, so I do have to protect that time
30:07
really really carefully. But there have been times where, you know, three
30:10
o'clock in the morning, I wake up and I'm I have the luxury of
30:14
just being able to get up and just I don't even have a notepad.
30:15
I just get up and I go and write it or I'll forget it.
30:18
Yeah smart. Wow. Well, we've talked about Cold Moon Carnival, which
30:25
is just out. What's next from you? So I am back to the
30:30
Portal Slayer story world. So getting back to my original it's a it's a
30:37
different land that we're entering, but it's still got We'll see a few of
30:44
the same characters, which has been wonderful. I loved when you finish,
30:48
especially a trilogy you're so tired of. I mean, I like just want
30:52
to get away from all of those characters. I'm so tired of dealing with
30:53
them. But it's been nice to see them again. You know. It's
30:57
like old friends coming back and saying, Okay, we're going to do this
31:00
story again. So Haunted is the name of the trilogy that's coming up into
31:07
the Abyss is the first one, and that'll be coming out gosh in about
31:11
sixty days, so wow, yeah, I've lid on you. Yeah,
31:15
it's coming up quick, coming up, way quick. Well, we really
31:22
will have to get you back then in sixty days or sometime. That'd be
31:26
lovely. Yeah, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank
31:30
you very much for having me. Parting words last time. I of course
31:41
mentioned the fall Ryder Con conference over Labor Day weekend because I want you to
31:47
sign up now and take advantage of the early bird prices, which will not
31:51
be around much longer. But we also have a small group retreat coming up
31:55
in Branson, Laura tell everybody about that. I love our small group retreats.
32:00
We keep it small and intimate so that you can get one on one
32:05
feedback from Bill and myself on your work in progress. But it's a big
32:10
enough group that you're also going to be getting feedback from the other people in
32:15
the retreat, so you've got kind of a built in support network there.
32:21
We also will do craft sessions in the morning, and you're going to dictate
32:30
what we talk about, what those teachings focus on to most help you advance
32:36
your writer's career. So I hope you'll come and join us in Branson and
32:38
take advantage of this excellent well said. Let me also remind you that I
32:45
am, in addition to being a podcast co host, I am technically a
32:50
writer. My last book was Partners in Crime, but my next will be
32:54
out in May, the next Daniel Pike book. That'll be the eighth in
32:59
the series. Of course, he's a lawyer and these are legal thrillers,
33:02
and the new one will be titled Justice for All. Will Ben can K
33:07
be back like he was in the previous book, Yes, briefly. But
33:12
another one of my series characters is this book's primary guest star, and it's
33:17
not a team up. It's more like a cage match. And at that
33:22
point, I'm just going to let you guess. Please, Will you please
33:27
in the commercial for that book, use something from Metallica's Justice for All album?
33:31
I think that'd be for you. I will. That'll be the background
33:35
of the book trailer. Absolutely. Uh so that's the title, But I'm
33:39
going to make you wait for the guest star and what it's about. But
33:45
watch for Justice for All? All right? Am I also going to be
33:49
in the video holding your book up in front of my naughty bits. Would
33:53
you that's not creepy because we're married. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's
34:00
an acceptable way to promote your book, right, and I'll do the same
34:02
when your next book comes out, honey, Oh yes, that'll sell a
34:07
lot of the Oscar. Yeah, let's all pull of Johnson at the Oscar.
34:13
Well, not exactly the same, but okay, all right everybody,
34:17
until next time, keep writing, and remember you cannot fail if you refuse
34:23
to quit. See you next time.