Transcript

Sharri | 19 June · Sharri

0:07
Speaker 1: Good evening.
0:07
Speaker 2: Well coming up on the show tonight, and it's a
0:09
Speaker 2: massive show. Tonight Peter Dutton goes all in on nuclear
0:13
Speaker 2: We'll have a look at whether the polls.
0:15
Speaker 1: Are on his side.
0:17
Speaker 2: Also tonight, he was one of the country's most powerful bureaucrats.
0:21
Speaker 2: Former Home Affairs Boss Mike Bozzullo would join Me Live
0:25
Speaker 2: for an exclusive interview to discuss China's bullying of cheng
0:29
Speaker 2: Lei Albanezi's approach to China and the threat of war
0:34
Speaker 2: that coming up, and in a special and emotional interview.
0:38
Speaker 2: Two survivors of the October seven massacre are on the show,
0:43
Speaker 2: a mother held at gunpoint and a local police officer
0:47
Speaker 2: who fought off terrorists and saved two hundred lives.
0:52
Speaker 1: You don't want to miss that.
0:54
Speaker 2: But first now to Peter Dutton's major nuclear energy plan,
0:58
Speaker 2: which has drawn fierce political battle lines.
1:02
Speaker 1: As you know by now.
1:03
Speaker 2: Peter Dutton today announced seven sites for nuclear reactors in Queensland,
1:09
Speaker 2: New South Wales, Victoria, WA and South Australia.
1:14
Speaker 1: Here he was making that announcement, what will.
1:18
Speaker 3: Happen in Osborne, where Premier Malanowski is signed up to
1:21
Speaker 3: the Orchest deal. There will be a reactor there where
1:24
Speaker 3: sub mariners in Australian uniforms will be sleeping in the
1:27
Speaker 3: submarine alongside the reactor in a safe way in Henderson
1:31
Speaker 3: in WA. Then Premier McGowan signed up to the Orchest Deal,
1:36
Speaker 3: where the nuclear reactors in the submarines will be there
1:40
Speaker 3: alongside residential and industrial areas. So those premiers have shown
1:45
Speaker 3: a level of pragmatism. Before we signed up to Orcust,
1:48
Speaker 3: nobody believed that it could happen. Everyone said that the
1:50
Speaker 3: premiers wouldn't agree to it. They did, so we'll work
1:53
Speaker 3: with the premiers because it's in our national interest.
1:57
Speaker 2: Well, the opposition to his policy today extensive, with every
2:02
Speaker 2: labor figure in the country opposing it in the strongest
2:05
Speaker 2: possible terms.
2:08
Speaker 4: We know that mister Dutton wants to slow down the
2:11
Speaker 4: role out of renewables and he wants to introduce the
2:14
Speaker 4: most expensive form of energy that's slow to build. But
2:17
Speaker 4: today we've seen no costs, we've seen no gigawatts, we've
2:21
Speaker 4: seen no detail. This is a joke.
2:24
Speaker 3: It is the worst combination of economic and ideological stupidity.
2:29
Speaker 5: We're not supporting nuclear power. I think our state laws
2:31
Speaker 5: are pretty clear when it comes to planning, but whether
2:33
Speaker 5: there's some overriding constitutional question that he can pursue.
2:38
Speaker 6: Nuclear energy is toxic, it's risky, it's more expensive.
2:45
Speaker 2: The announcement was always going to be controversial, and there
2:49
Speaker 2: will be a massive scare campaign from labor, no question.
2:54
Speaker 7: I'm sort of staggered that we haven't heard aim and
2:57
Speaker 7: talk about three headed Fish and the Simpsons and Springfield,
3:00
Speaker 7: all the other things that you had to see a
3:02
Speaker 7: lot of over the next.
3:03
Speaker 3: Of a while, because we're going to have the mother
3:05
Speaker 3: of all scare campaigns that has played out before us
3:08
Speaker 3: over the next in a while.
3:10
Speaker 1: And the scare campaign kicked off today.
3:13
Speaker 2: Just like with medi scare, this emotional fear campaign could
3:17
Speaker 2: well be very effective. But what are these labor politicians
3:22
Speaker 2: say about the thirty two countries internationally which already rely
3:26
Speaker 2: on nuclear energy. Nuclear is a successful part of the
3:30
Speaker 2: energy mix in Canada, Mexico, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Belgium, Finland, France, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland,
3:39
Speaker 2: the UK.
3:40
Speaker 1: The list goes on.
3:42
Speaker 2: Sky News reporter Annalie's Nielsen visited Canada's nuclear reactor sites
3:48
Speaker 2: to see their model, and it's said to be close
3:52
Speaker 2: to the one that Dutton is pursuing.
3:55
Speaker 8: Nuclear power has been operating safely in Canada since the
3:58
Speaker 8: nineteen sixties. The province of Ontario has three nuclear facilities
4:03
Speaker 8: that generates around sixty percent of the energy here and
4:07
Speaker 8: is often held up as the model to export to Australia.
4:12
Speaker 2: But Peter Dutton left himself open to attack today by
4:16
Speaker 2: refusing to detail the cost of this policy. At least
4:20
Speaker 2: of the moment, it unquestionably will be expensive, but then
4:25
Speaker 2: so is the renewable energy transition. There are also remaining
4:29
Speaker 2: questions about nuclear waste now. It was Anthony Albanesi himself,
4:35
Speaker 2: as part of Kevin Rudd's team in opposition, who campaigned against.
4:40
Speaker 1: Nuclear in two thousand and seven.
4:42
Speaker 2: At the time, Ziggi Switkowski recommended to John Howard, who
4:46
Speaker 2: is the PM, that Australia consider nuclear as part of
4:50
Speaker 2: its action to curb emissions or John Howard, facing a
4:55
Speaker 2: loss at the two thousand and seven election, dropped the policy.
5:00
Speaker 2: But before that there were TV ads campaign posters just
5:05
Speaker 2: like this advert from August two thousand and seven.
5:10
Speaker 9: John Howard says a nuclear industry is a solution to
5:13
Speaker 9: climate change, but he won't say where the reactor should go.
5:17
Speaker 9: He refuses to talk about a list of possible sites
5:20
Speaker 9: for reactors that includes Rockhampton, Bunderberg, Mackay, Townsville, the Sunshine Coast,
5:26
Speaker 9: even Brydie Island, Queensland. Beautiful one day, nuclear the next.
5:36
Speaker 2: And that was a very effective scare campaign back in
5:39
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. Well, Albinizi ran the campaign. He
5:43
Speaker 2: knows this area well and he won't hesitate to strike again.
5:49
Speaker 5: What's your number one reason? What's your number one message
5:52
Speaker 5: to people who live in and around loy Yang, which
5:54
Speaker 5: is the site of a potential nuclear reactor.
5:56
Speaker 1: What would you say to them.
5:59
Speaker 10: That a nuclear reactor is fifteen years away and will
6:04
Speaker 10: drive up power prices, lead to more energy and security,
6:09
Speaker 10: and lead to less jobs being created. Every economic analysis
6:13
Speaker 10: says it doesn't stack up, and that's why it's extraordinary
6:17
Speaker 10: that they continue to go down this track.
6:21
Speaker 2: Well, he doesn't mention that Labor has already signed up
6:24
Speaker 2: to nuclear powered submarines as part of the Orchest deal.
6:28
Speaker 2: He also doesn't mentioned that thirty two other countries around
6:31
Speaker 2: the world, as I said, rely on nuclear as part
6:34
Speaker 2: of their energy mix. And never mind that his solution
6:38
Speaker 2: renewable energy won't meet our energy needs alone. What Political
6:44
Speaker 2: editor Simon Benson notes today that the more hysterical the
6:48
Speaker 2: Prime Minister and his colleagues are inclined to become, the
6:52
Speaker 2: more he is lured into presenting as an opposition leader
6:55
Speaker 2: rather than a prime minister. And Simon Benson says that
6:59
Speaker 2: the nuclear plan is a platform for Peter Dutton's rebrand
7:03
Speaker 2: as a leader. He writes that it shifts the dynamic
7:06
Speaker 2: from a coalition opposition always opposed to things, as to
7:10
Speaker 2: one fighting for something. Well, this may be the case,
7:15
Speaker 2: but ultimately the nuclear debate presents the greatest political risk
7:20
Speaker 2: for Peter Dutton, who's in recent times been surging ahead
7:24
Speaker 2: of Albanezi in the polls. It's virtually unprecedented to have
7:29
Speaker 2: such a significant policy contest ahead of a federal election.
7:34
Speaker 2: Both leaders say that the next election will be a
7:37
Speaker 2: referendum on nuclear energy.
7:41
Speaker 3: I'm very happy for the election to be a referendum
7:43
Speaker 3: on energy, on nuclear on power prices, on lights going out.
7:47
Speaker 4: As we agree, the next election will be a referendum
7:49
Speaker 4: on energy policy. Mister Dutton says the next election will
7:52
Speaker 4: be a referendum on energy policy. We actually agree with that.
7:55
Speaker 4: But here's the news for mister Dutton, have a referendum,
7:57
Speaker 4: You've gotta have a policy.
7:59
Speaker 2: Well, without rob and Easy proving himself to be a
8:02
Speaker 2: failure of a leader who has destroyed Australian's social cohesion
8:06
Speaker 2: and is incapable of governing effectively, Well, if he executes
8:11
Speaker 2: this scare campaign properly, it just could be a lifeline
8:15
Speaker 2: for him in choosing to pursue this policy contest.
8:19
Speaker 1: The stakes for Peter Darton.
8:22
Speaker 2: Are as high as they can get.
8:28
Speaker 1: All Right, As I said, it's a big show.
8:29
Speaker 2: I've got an exclusive interview with Mike Bozzullo coming up.
8:32
Speaker 2: Also two survivors of the Nova Music Festival.
8:35
Speaker 1: But first let's discuss this nuclear debate.
8:38
Speaker 2: Let's bring it now Tonight's Political Panel, National Senate Leader
8:41
Speaker 2: Bridget McKenzie and the Menzies Research Center Executive director Dave Hughes.
8:46
Speaker 1: Welcome to you both.
8:48
Speaker 2: Bridget, Do you think this is a gamble worth taking
8:52
Speaker 2: for the Coalition?
8:55
Speaker 6: Absolutely, Sharion, I really loved your opening segment. We don't
9:01
Speaker 6: see it as a gamble. We see it as providing
9:03
Speaker 6: a credible vision for a safe and prosperous, sustainable future
9:08
Speaker 6: for our country. We're not just interested getting to net
9:10
Speaker 6: zero by twenty fifty. We still want to be a
9:13
Speaker 6: sovereign country that cannot just keep the lights on but
9:17
Speaker 6: have a fantastic economic growth story in the coming century,
9:22
Speaker 6: and that means having affordable, reliable baseload power generation. Now,
9:28
Speaker 6: with ninety percent of that reliable baseload going off in
9:33
Speaker 6: the next decade, we need something to replace it, and
9:36
Speaker 6: wind and solar aren't going to do it. We know that,
9:39
Speaker 6: and I'm very, very proud to be part of a
9:41
Speaker 6: team that is putting Australia where it should have been
9:45
Speaker 6: during Howard's years and actually harnessing the opportunity that nuclear
9:49
Speaker 6: power generation brings in a low emissions future.
9:54
Speaker 2: Dave, just how big a risk this is for the
9:56
Speaker 2: coalition ultimately comes down to the current view of a
10:00
Speaker 2: Australians and whether they are going to support this.
10:03
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit.
10:04
Speaker 2: About what some of the recent polls have shown about
10:07
Speaker 2: whether Australians do support a move towards.
10:10
Speaker 5: Nuclear A lot has changed since that Scare campaign that
10:14
Speaker 5: Anthony Alberanesi ran in two thousand and seven. Back then,
10:19
Speaker 5: sixty percent of Australians were opposed to nuclear energy. In
10:23
Speaker 5: twenty twenty four, sixty percent of Australians support nuclear energy.
10:27
Speaker 5: We know that because the Low Institute has been tracking
10:29
Speaker 5: this issue for a number of years. Labor voters as
10:33
Speaker 5: well support nuclear energy. There was a pole from Jim Reed.
10:39
Speaker 11: Some of them.
10:41
Speaker 5: There was a pole from Jim Reid who runs Resolved
10:43
Speaker 5: Strategic recently as well, it showed that only twenty percent
10:48
Speaker 5: of labor voters were opposed to nuclear energy. So the
10:51
Speaker 5: grounds for a scare campaign are significantly different than they
10:54
Speaker 5: were in two thousand and seven. So that's something that
10:56
Speaker 5: Anthony Alberanesi needs to factor in. He also needs to
10:59
Speaker 5: factor in that if he's running a scare campaign around
11:02
Speaker 5: nuclear safety, that scare campaign also undermines the orcut submarines
11:07
Speaker 5: that are going to be docked in Adelaide and in Perth,
11:10
Speaker 5: our nuclear reactor that's operated safely not too far from
11:14
Speaker 5: us in southwestern Sydney as well, So he's going to
11:17
Speaker 5: have to be conscious of that if he's looking to
11:18
Speaker 5: run another scare campaign.
11:19
Speaker 1: And do you think though, this is going to be
11:21
Speaker 1: a big political risk.
11:22
Speaker 2: I mean, you ran at least the media section of
11:25
Speaker 2: the Liberal Party's last federal election.
11:27
Speaker 1: Campaign or the past couple. Do you think this is
11:29
Speaker 1: a big gamble for the coalition.
11:31
Speaker 5: Well, it's going to dominate. It's going to be one
11:34
Speaker 5: of the issues that's going to dominate the next campaign,
11:36
Speaker 5: that's for sure. Peter Dutton's been open about this so
11:40
Speaker 5: for the last year, and in that same time his
11:43
Speaker 5: vote has strengthened and Anthony Alberonizi's vote's been declining. And
11:47
Speaker 5: I think younger Australians in particular, aren't you know, they
11:53
Speaker 5: place facts above fear as well. They're more open to
11:57
Speaker 5: nuclear as well. So I think they're going to be
11:58
Speaker 5: persuaded by the facts in this argument and not spooked
12:01
Speaker 5: by three eyed fish and everything else that Labor will
12:03
Speaker 5: roll out.
12:04
Speaker 2: All right, let's have a look at Labor and p
12:06
Speaker 2: Josh Burns And as you know by now, his federal
12:09
Speaker 2: office was vandalized overnight by pro Palestinian activists. It was
12:14
Speaker 2: what the Jewish MP called a politically motivated attack.
12:17
Speaker 1: Have a look. No amount of aggression and violence.
12:22
Speaker 7: Here in Australia is going to change what's happening in
12:25
Speaker 7: the Middle East. This sort of vandalism, this sort of
12:27
Speaker 7: political aggression, has no place in Australia.
12:30
Speaker 2: It's enough, bridget you know, what I found so moving
12:35
Speaker 2: about Josh's comments when he held that press conference earlier today
12:39
Speaker 2: is that he made the point that if action isn't taken,
12:43
Speaker 2: there is going to be an attack, that this is escalating,
12:47
Speaker 2: something worse is going to happen. And we are seeing
12:50
Speaker 2: lawlessness in part because our political leaders and the police
12:55
Speaker 2: aren't doing anything.
12:56
Speaker 1: They're not arresting anyone.
13:00
Speaker 6: No, Shari, you know we've talked about this a lot.
13:03
Speaker 6: You're exactly right. The permissiveness, if I can use that word,
13:10
Speaker 6: of state governments, state police forces, and indeed the language
13:16
Speaker 6: being used by the federal government has allowed given tacit approval,
13:23
Speaker 6: shall we say, in people expressing their views in this
13:27
Speaker 6: conflict at home here domestically in ways that I think
13:32
Speaker 6: a reminiscent of the nineteen thirties in Germany. I've been appalled,
13:35
Speaker 6: as you have been, as you've highlighted over many, many months,
13:40
Speaker 6: what's happening on our suburban streets, in our schools, at
13:44
Speaker 6: our universities, in businesses that you would have been appalled
13:49
Speaker 6: and shocked about in previous decades that today are being
13:54
Speaker 6: almost tacitly approved or sort of waved way, as if
13:58
Speaker 6: we're all helpless in the face of this sort of behavior.
14:01
Speaker 6: We're not we have laws, stop keeping the peace and
14:05
Speaker 6: start up holding the law.
14:07
Speaker 2: Well said, absolutely agree. And what worries me as well, Dave,
14:11
Speaker 2: is that it's not it's a targeting of Jewish people.
14:15
Speaker 2: And we saw it just yet again overnight with Jerry Seinfeld.
14:19
Speaker 2: You know he's not a representative of Israel. He's just
14:22
Speaker 2: a Jewish comedian. And well, let's have a look at
14:24
Speaker 2: what happened again at his show last night.
14:28
Speaker 10: You're getting them on your side, can you hear it?
14:31
Speaker 5: Good?
14:33
Speaker 1: There's the police say you have.
14:35
Speaker 11: Shown political feelings, but you don't know where.
14:40
Speaker 2: You say that.
14:42
Speaker 9: Do you think that ruining the name?
14:45
Speaker 12: It doesn't affect me? All these people.
14:47
Speaker 9: You're ruining their name.
14:49
Speaker 11: Thank you for Tommy. Did you like the horse bit
14:51
Speaker 11: before you leave?
14:54
Speaker 1: Did you get so good? Did you like the whole
15:00
Speaker 1: bit before you left?
15:00
Speaker 2: I wish we could also see his show, But Dave,
15:03
Speaker 2: you know it strikes me and I made this point
15:05
Speaker 2: the other night that Jerry Seinfeld has a better grasp
15:08
Speaker 2: of security than our Australian federal police. He manages to
15:12
Speaker 2: move the pro Palestinians out.
15:13
Speaker 1: Why can't our police do the same.
15:16
Speaker 5: He got them out there quicker than Sydney University. Yes,
15:19
Speaker 5: that's for sure. As you said before, Shari, he's not
15:23
Speaker 5: out here as a representative of the Israeli government or
15:25
Speaker 5: the Israeli Defense Force. He's not a commentator, a prolific
15:29
Speaker 5: commentator on foreign policy issues. He's out here as a
15:33
Speaker 5: comedian to entertain. And the reason he was targeted by
15:37
Speaker 5: activists is because he's a Jew, and that's something we
15:40
Speaker 5: can't tolerate. And yeah, I'll be making the same point
15:43
Speaker 5: that that's equally concerning if it was a Muslim comedian
15:46
Speaker 5: targeted solely on the basis of their religion as well,
15:49
Speaker 5: that is something that we cannot tolerate in Australia.
15:51
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, Absolutely absolutely, Bridget, I couldn't believe
15:55
Speaker 2: this story in the City Morning Herald. Former Prime Minister
15:58
Speaker 2: Scott Morrison has been denied entry at least at the moment,
16:02
Speaker 2: but currently he has been denied entry from the Elite
16:05
Speaker 2: Australian Club. Now this is a controversial club, but the
16:09
Speaker 2: club secretary, Michael Solomon, said that they have a policy
16:13
Speaker 2: of not commenting on membership nominations.
16:16
Speaker 1: Ridget, this is outrageous. He's a former prime minister.
16:21
Speaker 2: You might not agree with his politics, but his service.
16:24
Speaker 1: To our country has been enormous.
16:29
Speaker 6: This is true, Shari. But you and I can't join
16:31
Speaker 6: the Australia Club either. Let's remember that if I was
16:34
Speaker 6: the Prime minister. If I was the Prime Minister, I
16:37
Speaker 6: wouldn't be able to join the Australia clubs. So and
16:41
Speaker 6: we do have a former premier here in Victoria that's
16:45
Speaker 6: been unable to join a golf club down south of
16:50
Speaker 6: our place. So I do think at the end of
16:53
Speaker 6: the day, these are private entities, for good or for
16:57
Speaker 6: ill that make these sort of decisions. And you know,
17:01
Speaker 6: I think former PM's, former servants of our country, no
17:06
Speaker 6: matter what side of politics, should be able to join
17:10
Speaker 6: these type of establishments. But I'd be arguing that I
17:13
Speaker 6: would hope that a future female Prime minister would also
17:16
Speaker 6: be able to join the Australia Club one day.
17:19
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, that those are well made points.
17:22
Speaker 1: I have been for lunch there once or twice, and
17:25
Speaker 1: I don't know why everyone to join as well. It's
17:28
Speaker 1: a bit stiff, it's a bit boring.
17:30
Speaker 2: I don't remember there being any atmosphere or music or
17:33
Speaker 2: great food.
17:34
Speaker 1: So there are other clubs I'd love to join.
17:36
Speaker 5: Come on, Dad, I share that view and I'm not
17:38
Speaker 5: a member of the class.
17:40
Speaker 11: I'm not a member, but I.
17:41
Speaker 5: Don't really think it's Scott.
17:42
Speaker 1: I don't think it's.
17:42
Speaker 5: Scott Morrison's style either. He's happy in shorts watching the footy,
17:47
Speaker 5: so I'm not sure it's really his style anyway.
17:49
Speaker 1: Look, he applied, did he apply? Did he apply?
17:52
Speaker 2: Well, the reporting says he did apply, So if he applied,
17:56
Speaker 2: the fact that they rejected him but not the likes
17:58
Speaker 2: of Malcolm Turnbull says a lot. All right, Bridget Mackenzie,
18:01
Speaker 2: Dave Hughes, it's very Sydney.
18:03
Speaker 1: Yes, great to have you both on tonight.
18:05
Speaker 2: Now just before we got a break in a major development,
18:08
Speaker 2: Lisa Wilkinson is seeking to challenge a finding made against
18:12
Speaker 2: her in the Bruce Lehman defamation case. The Projects former
18:16
Speaker 2: star has filed to appeal against Justice Michael Lee's finding
18:21
Speaker 2: that she and ten acted unreasonably and unfairly when pursuing
18:25
Speaker 2: the Brittney Higgins story, and she claims the judge made
18:28
Speaker 2: more than fifty errors in the Bruce Lehman failed defamation
18:33
Speaker 2: case against her and Network ten. The Australian reports today
18:37
Speaker 2: that Justice Lee made a number of errors in its
18:39
Speaker 2: findings of her conduct and about the rape of Britney
18:42
Speaker 2: Higgins by mister Lherman.
18:45
Speaker 1: So yet again, that story never seems to end.
18:48
Speaker 2: Now, coming up, Mike Puzzullo will join me live in
18:51
Speaker 2: an exclusive interview. I'll ask him about China's bullying of
18:54
Speaker 2: Cheng Lai. Plus later in the show, i'll speak to
18:57
Speaker 2: two survivors of the October seven attack.
19:00
Speaker 1: By Hamask you don't want to miss that interview. Welcome back.
19:09
Speaker 2: Well, we saw this week that Chinese officials tried to
19:12
Speaker 2: bodyblock Australian journalist Chang Lay at a press briefing, and
19:17
Speaker 2: then we learned today that Cheng Lay was actually barred
19:20
Speaker 2: completely from attending another press event with the Chinese premier.
19:25
Speaker 2: This time it was his meeting with Peter Dutton. Cheng
19:29
Speaker 2: l wrote on Sky News that Australia is appeasing China
19:33
Speaker 2: and she's not surprised by it. She said, for a moment,
19:36
Speaker 2: it reminded me of being in residential surveillance, where shifts
19:40
Speaker 2: of two guards were glued to me every minute of
19:43
Speaker 2: the day. Anthony Alberdezi wanted to make this visit by
19:47
Speaker 2: the Chinese premier all about pandas and penfolds. But when
19:51
Speaker 2: the Chinese officials felt emboldened on our soil to bully
19:56
Speaker 2: Cheng lay Well, the Prime Minister failed to f fiercely
20:00
Speaker 2: protect his Australian citizen or our values of freedom of
20:05
Speaker 2: the press. It seems like China may have already bought
20:08
Speaker 2: Australia's silence despite its foreign interference, it's espionage, its extensive
20:15
Speaker 2: malicious cyber attacks, and its appalling human rights abuses where
20:20
Speaker 2: whistleblowers and journalists regularly disappear, and Muslim wigas are subject
20:25
Speaker 2: to terrible treatment in slave labor camps. As I said
20:29
Speaker 2: on Monday night, Albinizi condemns our democratic ally in Israel
20:35
Speaker 2: more than he does the greatest aggressor in our region, China.
20:40
Speaker 2: To discuss this in more, former Home Affair Secretary and
20:44
Speaker 2: longtime powerful diplomat Mike Buzzulo joins me now for an
20:48
Speaker 2: exclusive interview.
20:49
Speaker 1: Mike, thank you.
20:50
Speaker 2: Very much and welcome to the program. Look, I want
20:53
Speaker 2: to start with this incident, this treatment of Cheng Lei
20:57
Speaker 2: this week by the Chinese officials.
20:59
Speaker 1: What's reaction to what happened.
21:04
Speaker 12: Well.
21:04
Speaker 7: Like most Australians, if not all Australians, I was appalled,
21:07
Speaker 7: particularly in the case of the first incident. That main
21:10
Speaker 7: Committee room, which is in the center of Parliament House,
21:13
Speaker 7: for those of your viewers who've never been there, is
21:16
Speaker 7: where parliamentary inquiries are held, estimates, hearings and the like.
21:19
Speaker 7: It's actually the citadel of our democratic scrutiny, our parliamentary
21:23
Speaker 7: scrutiny of the executive and to have in that room
21:26
Speaker 7: that body blocking occurring, I thought it was disgraceful. It
21:29
Speaker 7: was appalling. I do want to applaud the quick witted
21:32
Speaker 7: actions by the officers. I believe that they're from the
21:35
Speaker 7: Prime Minister's Department who were trying as best as they
21:38
Speaker 7: could with grace, dignity, and I think very good judgment
21:41
Speaker 7: to try, without making a big scene, to try to
21:43
Speaker 7: move the particularly the tall blue suited gentlemen on and
21:47
Speaker 7: those officers should be I think praised for their charm,
21:51
Speaker 7: their grace, their dignity, but also their result. It shouldn't
21:55
Speaker 7: come to that in that room. I've sat in that
21:57
Speaker 7: room many many times, been quizzed by senators. Perhaps it's
22:00
Speaker 7: an alien practice for officials from communist China to comprehend
22:06
Speaker 7: the idea of officials being the subject of scrutiny, particularly
22:09
Speaker 7: in that room. I was appalled.
22:12
Speaker 2: Indeed, well, what about how the Prime Minister reacted to this?
22:15
Speaker 1: He was asked about it in a couple of media interviews.
22:18
Speaker 1: What did you make of his response?
22:22
Speaker 7: Ohl Shari, You have to excuse me these days, I'm
22:24
Speaker 7: a retired Canbra pensioner. I don't sort of follow the
22:27
Speaker 7: day the day to day media monitoring in the way
22:31
Speaker 7: that I used to. I have read some discussion and
22:33
Speaker 7: some commentary that suggests that initially there was a degree
22:37
Speaker 7: of dismissal, and then there was a hardening of the
22:38
Speaker 7: position where the government seems to have got to, which
22:42
Speaker 7: is to register a strong complaint, is where we should
22:45
Speaker 7: have started. The only thing I noticed in the commentary
22:48
Speaker 7: that I do want to make a point of and
22:51
Speaker 7: take some exception to, is any suggestion that we should
22:53
Speaker 7: be putting that this is somehow comprehensible or indeed excusable
22:59
Speaker 7: on the base of different political values or different political systems. No,
23:03
Speaker 7: our house, our rules. They need to understand, coming into
23:07
Speaker 7: our territory, our terrain, that they behave according to our
23:10
Speaker 7: principles and rules. I've got no doubt that if the
23:14
Speaker 7: government has said that complaints have been lodged, that that's
23:17
Speaker 7: been done and done hopefully candidly. I'm sure it's been
23:20
Speaker 7: done candidly, but we shouldn't dismiss it through some sort
23:23
Speaker 7: of political or cultural relativism.
23:27
Speaker 2: I think we're seeing it, and you've noted this a
23:29
Speaker 2: tendency by the Albanezi government to deal with all of
23:32
Speaker 2: these different incidences in isolation. So whether it's Chang Lai's
23:36
Speaker 2: bullying or the sonar attack on our navy divers or
23:40
Speaker 2: Chinese aggression towards Filipino fishing vessels, all dealt with in isolation.
23:45
Speaker 2: But when you put it together, Mike Bozulo, what's the
23:48
Speaker 2: nature of the China that we currently face.
23:53
Speaker 7: Well, the character of the regime matters, and what I'm
23:56
Speaker 7: going to say or what I'm about to say Shari
23:58
Speaker 7: is not a reflection on Chinese culture. The Chinese people,
24:02
Speaker 7: who like us, go about their lives seeking the best
24:06
Speaker 7: for their families, drawing on their rich historical traditions and
24:11
Speaker 7: doing the best they can to build a better future.
24:13
Speaker 7: That this is not about the Chinese people, but the
24:15
Speaker 7: regime is a Leninist communist regime that believes in the
24:19
Speaker 7: absolute authority of the party, the absolute authority of the
24:23
Speaker 7: party to control all organs, not just of the States,
24:25
Speaker 7: but also the economy, the culture, and indeed politics. And
24:30
Speaker 7: therefore it's such a dissimilar regime that if we don't
24:35
Speaker 7: put at the center of our analysis the character of
24:37
Speaker 7: that regime, we're going to get it wrong every time,
24:40
Speaker 7: and we're going to be surprised by these individual events,
24:42
Speaker 7: Whereas what we should be doing is aggregating a view
24:45
Speaker 7: of the regime, particularly in three dimensions. One strategic its
24:50
Speaker 7: strategic goal is to push the United States out of
24:53
Speaker 7: the Indo Pacific and to start to dictate terms to
24:57
Speaker 7: the countries that are in the Indo Pacific, including Australia.
25:00
Speaker 7: But whether it's Japan, whether it's the Philippines, whether it's
25:03
Speaker 7: countries in Asia and Australia, and we can get to
25:05
Speaker 7: those strategic issues in the moment if you wish. Secondly,
25:09
Speaker 7: their interference in their own economy, and they're weaponizing of
25:12
Speaker 7: their economy such that they're distorting supply chains, whether it's
25:16
Speaker 7: pharmaceuticals or other components that are critical, or they're introducing
25:20
Speaker 7: risk into technology such as five G that basically a
25:23
Speaker 7: lot of their products and services become untrustworthy. That is
25:26
Speaker 7: a function of the character of the regime. And thirdly,
25:30
Speaker 7: that political and cultural relativism that I spoke of earlier.
25:33
Speaker 7: There's a paradox here, Shari. That is at one level
25:36
Speaker 7: mind blowing for Marxists who believe in objective forces of
25:40
Speaker 7: history and that there's only one objective truth for them
25:42
Speaker 7: to say. But actually civilizations are different and we can
25:46
Speaker 7: all have our own politics, and these so called Western
25:49
Speaker 7: norms are culturally specific to the West, what like parliamentary
25:53
Speaker 7: scrutiny of the executive courts, the rule of law, the
25:56
Speaker 7: prevention of arbitrary detention, etc. The ability of people to
26:00
Speaker 7: go to courts and have decisions taken by officials overturned.
26:04
Speaker 7: I think we should be standing up for the universality
26:06
Speaker 7: of those principles and not accepting that relativism. So it's
26:10
Speaker 7: the character of the regime that I'm drawing attention to. Shari.
26:14
Speaker 2: You've just said that if we don't realize the threat
26:17
Speaker 2: the reality of China, we risk getting it wrong.
26:20
Speaker 1: Do you think we're getting it wrong at the moment?
26:22
Speaker 1: And you know.
26:23
Speaker 2: I'll just draw your attention to the current government's approach
26:27
Speaker 2: to China. I mean, we see the Prime Minister often
26:29
Speaker 2: use catch phrases like that we need to disagree where
26:33
Speaker 2: we must and that we've stabilized relations. But are we
26:36
Speaker 2: actually disagreeing where we must or do you think China
26:40
Speaker 2: has effectively bought our silence?
26:45
Speaker 7: I think it's I think there's some nuance here that
26:47
Speaker 7: we just quickly need to tease out. I think if
26:50
Speaker 7: we fall into the trap of making the relationship purely bilateral,
26:54
Speaker 7: that is to say, not engaging in building coalitions and
26:58
Speaker 7: in building and banding together without other like mindeds, we
27:02
Speaker 7: will fall into a trap where, for the sake of
27:05
Speaker 7: improvements in trade which are not to be sneezed that
27:08
Speaker 7: although it does pass range that we're applauding the lifting
27:13
Speaker 7: of restrictions that never should have been put in place
27:15
Speaker 7: in the first place, if they are truly trade restrictions,
27:18
Speaker 7: as opposed to weaponizing, for instance, the trading lobsters or
27:22
Speaker 7: the trade in wine. But let's leave that to one side.
27:25
Speaker 7: Those barriers being lifted are good. The exporters here who
27:30
Speaker 7: supply high quality produce, it's great that they're going to
27:33
Speaker 7: get back into those markets. But we shouldn't accept that
27:37
Speaker 7: that's normal behavior. We're turning those trade linkages into political weapons,
27:42
Speaker 7: and then having those barriers lifted is something for us
27:45
Speaker 7: to applaud and congratulate. The Chinese approach is to divide
27:49
Speaker 7: and conquer. What they want is a bilateral relationship with
27:52
Speaker 7: everyone other than the Americans, because they realize that the
27:55
Speaker 7: Americans are a great power.
27:56
Speaker 2: Such apologies for interrupting, But just to bring you back
28:01
Speaker 2: to the point, do you think in the Australian government,
28:04
Speaker 2: the Albanezy government seeking to get China to lift those
28:09
Speaker 2: trade sanctions, which, as you say, should never have been
28:11
Speaker 2: in place in the first instance, in getting them to
28:14
Speaker 2: do that, have they effectively bought our silence, our subjugation.
28:20
Speaker 13: No.
28:20
Speaker 7: And this is the point I was just about to
28:21
Speaker 7: get to, and I apologize for meandering a little bit
28:24
Speaker 7: along the way. Getting those bilateral winds is important. The
28:29
Speaker 7: thing is what do you do after that? Having stabilized
28:32
Speaker 7: the relationship, having normalized it, which is the other word
28:35
Speaker 7: that's used for those who propose or propound this approach,
28:39
Speaker 7: you then can't retract from the banding together that was
28:43
Speaker 7: in evidence in the recent past, such as through the Quad,
28:47
Speaker 7: the work we've been doing with Japan and the Philippines
28:50
Speaker 7: calling them out on the origins of COVID, for instance.
28:53
Speaker 7: In other words, if we trade away those multilateral or
28:57
Speaker 7: regional groupings and the bandings in order to gain these
29:02
Speaker 7: bilateral benefits which really aren't benefits because they shouldn't have
29:05
Speaker 7: been punishments in the first place anyway, that's where I
29:08
Speaker 7: think we're at risk of policy failure. In other words, yes,
29:13
Speaker 7: the bilateral engagement is fine. Having the visit here is fine,
29:16
Speaker 7: notwithstanding the atrocity in our parliament in relation to chang
29:20
Speaker 7: Lay having those trade having that trade engagement is fine.
29:25
Speaker 7: It's what you do next that I'm concerned about.
29:29
Speaker 1: What are you concerned about?
29:32
Speaker 7: Well, are we going to pause, be reticent and pull
29:36
Speaker 7: back on things like building the capacity for American forces
29:41
Speaker 7: and Australian forces to operate out of Australia in wartime conditions,
29:46
Speaker 7: which is at the heart of our forced posture initiatives
29:49
Speaker 7: B fifty two bombers going into Tindal, the submarines, the
29:52
Speaker 7: rotational force going into Sterling. These are very good initiatives.
29:56
Speaker 2: You think as a risk, you think China would be
29:59
Speaker 2: pushing for us pull back on those things.
30:02
Speaker 7: I've got no doubt. I've got no evidence at all
30:04
Speaker 7: that we are pausing. We're probably not going as fast
30:07
Speaker 7: on those things as we should. We need to probably
30:09
Speaker 7: up the tempo. China, in their dream state of Australia,
30:13
Speaker 7: would have Australia absolutely renouncing all of those initiatives. They
30:17
Speaker 7: would prefer that we would close down the joint facilities.
30:19
Speaker 7: They would prefer that we didn't have any of those
30:22
Speaker 7: forced posture initiatives with the Americans.
30:24
Speaker 2: I just want to get to a couple of other areas,
30:26
Speaker 2: and we don't have too much time left. You are
30:29
Speaker 2: the principal author of the two thousand and nine Defense
30:31
Speaker 2: White Paper, and in it you pointed out the future
30:35
Speaker 2: military threat posed by China.
30:38
Speaker 1: Are we prepared for war now?
30:42
Speaker 7: Well, regrettably, that was fifteen years ago. We should have
30:45
Speaker 7: upped the tempo of both our defense spenders, as well
30:48
Speaker 7: as the bringing into commission and service of large the
30:52
Speaker 7: large platforms, things like the twelve large submarines, the general
30:55
Speaker 7: purpose frigates that were announced in that white paper. That
30:58
Speaker 7: opportunity was lost fifteen years ago, and indeed since so
31:02
Speaker 7: it's on both sides of politics. It's now too late
31:05
Speaker 7: to bring those platforms into the time frames that we need.
31:08
Speaker 7: So we need to rethink with a larger fleet of
31:12
Speaker 7: perhaps more basic capabilities, such as drones, to act as substitutes,
31:17
Speaker 7: because we don't have ten to fifteen years to build
31:19
Speaker 7: up that kind of force. So it does concern me.
31:22
Speaker 7: And given that we've got a policy of defense self
31:24
Speaker 7: reliance where we don't want to rely on the combat
31:26
Speaker 7: assistance of the United States or indeed anyone else, it
31:29
Speaker 7: troubles me that there's some glaring gaps now, as I've
31:32
Speaker 7: written about for aspe in relation to things like missile defense.
31:35
Speaker 7: In other words, if we had to deploy missile defense batteries,
31:38
Speaker 7: we could only deploy American ones into Australia to defend
31:43
Speaker 7: our own territory against ballistic missile and other forms of
31:46
Speaker 7: missile strike. That is concerning.
31:49
Speaker 2: Well, just before you go, Mike bizillo Are reported a
31:53
Speaker 2: few months ago that there's a push to strip you
31:57
Speaker 2: of your Order of Australia award and that they've written
32:01
Speaker 2: a show calls letter to you, a formal letter.
32:04
Speaker 1: Does this disappoint you.
32:09
Speaker 7: Well before it potentially disappoints me? If that action is
32:12
Speaker 7: going to be taken. It slightly puzzled me. I've gone
32:14
Speaker 7: back and sought reasons. They weren't really very particular about
32:19
Speaker 7: the reason. So I've left it there and I've probably
32:23
Speaker 7: given that a subject of a confidential process. I would
32:26
Speaker 7: prefer to say not much more than that. But before
32:28
Speaker 7: I get disappointed about it at the moment, choose to
32:30
Speaker 7: be puzzled about it.
32:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, puzzled it, And it does sound like perhaps engaging
32:35
Speaker 2: in that formal confidential process. Mike Bizula, really appreciate you
32:40
Speaker 2: coming on the show to talk about this very important
32:43
Speaker 2: issue of the threat of China and how we deal
32:46
Speaker 2: with it as a nation. Really appreciate your time this evening. Well,
32:51
Speaker 2: after the break, we've got a lot coming up to
32:54
Speaker 2: Survivors of the October seven attacks by Hamas will join
32:57
Speaker 2: me live in the studio. They are incredible stories of resilience,
33:02
Speaker 2: an overcoming unthinkable fear at the hands of terrorists. You
33:06
Speaker 2: don't want to miss it. Stay tuned, welcome back. Well,
33:14
Speaker 2: it was the brutal, barbaric massacre that shook us all
33:18
Speaker 2: around the world and started Israel's war against her muss
33:22
Speaker 2: that's now been raging for eight months. At the Nova
33:25
Speaker 2: Music Festival on October seven, two hundred and sixty innocent
33:30
Speaker 2: people were murdered. Among the partygoers was thirty four year
33:34
Speaker 2: old mother Mozale Tazazo. She'd arrived at the festival with
33:39
Speaker 2: friends on the Friday night. By the next morning, she
33:43
Speaker 2: was left unconscious, her life only spared because terrorists thought
33:49
Speaker 2: she was already dead.
33:51
Speaker 1: And it's no surprise.
33:52
Speaker 2: Why if you have a look at this distressing photo
33:55
Speaker 2: of how these barbarians left Muzzle bloody and bruised after
34:02
Speaker 2: being knocked unconscious and left for hours just meet us away.
34:08
Speaker 2: On the same shocking morning was Muslim Israeli police officer
34:13
Speaker 2: Ramo al Jozael, who fought off Hamasa's automated weapons with
34:18
Speaker 2: only a pistol in his hand. A true hero, Ramo
34:24
Speaker 2: saved over two hundred lives. Both Mazal and Rama I
34:29
Speaker 2: hear in Australia and they joined me to speak.
34:32
Speaker 1: About what happened that day just a bit earlier.
34:36
Speaker 2: Muzzle, Ramo, thank you both so much for joining me today. Muzzle,
34:41
Speaker 2: you were there with two friends at the Nova Music
34:44
Speaker 2: Festival on October seven. Can you tell us when you
34:47
Speaker 2: first knew that something was seriously wrong.
34:53
Speaker 12: When we tried to get to the main world, the
34:56
Speaker 12: hell world, you know, and it was very big traffic.
35:01
Speaker 11: Jam that don't move.
35:03
Speaker 12: And this moment we start to hear the gunshots and
35:06
Speaker 12: we tried to pass on the land and drive between
35:09
Speaker 12: the trees, but we stuck because it was big and
35:12
Speaker 12: deep pits and we saw policemen that's shooting, and we
35:16
Speaker 12: get it that they don't shooting to the air. They
35:18
Speaker 12: shooting because they see something that I don't see. But
35:21
Speaker 12: in the time you hear the gunshots come and be louder,
35:25
Speaker 12: the voice of the Arabic coming be coming closer. So
35:28
Speaker 12: we are bended our car and run to the road
35:32
Speaker 12: to the road, but the terrorists come from the side too,
35:35
Speaker 12: so they like closing us.
35:37
Speaker 1: So you were running.
35:38
Speaker 2: Initially you thought it was a traffic jam. You then
35:41
Speaker 2: realized it was a better class and you were running
35:45
Speaker 2: trying to escape with your two choirs friends. We sted
35:48
Speaker 2: the music festival to celebrate and have a good time.
35:52
Speaker 12: What happened next, so my friends and me try to
35:56
Speaker 12: cover ourselves with plants, but they and found us. I
36:01
Speaker 12: was with my face on the ground like put my
36:03
Speaker 12: hand like this, and the terrorists come found us, and
36:10
Speaker 12: he said in English, get up, get up, get up,
36:13
Speaker 12: yo yo yo, and I get the back of the
36:15
Speaker 12: weapon to my head and this hand like blow up.
36:19
Speaker 12: She saved me because they from the heat also my
36:22
Speaker 12: head open and they started tied my legs and start
36:29
Speaker 12: to talk with each other in Arabica. I wasn't conscious,
36:31
Speaker 12: don't get at what's happening. I know that I need
36:34
Speaker 12: to play dead, that's it. And he come to check me.
36:38
Speaker 1: Look at me.
36:39
Speaker 12: I hold my breath and they pick up my fast
36:42
Speaker 12: look at me, I guess and they go. And after
36:45
Speaker 12: they go, I lose my conscious two hours and when
36:48
Speaker 12: I woke up, I saw my friends die next to me.
36:51
Speaker 2: I want to go back to that moment when the
36:53
Speaker 2: terrorists came to see if you were alive, when I
36:56
Speaker 2: started tying your legs together, and you made the decision
36:59
Speaker 2: to pretend to be dead, and that ultimately has saved
37:03
Speaker 2: your life.
37:04
Speaker 12: I don't know anything, like I don't get it what
37:07
Speaker 12: he's doing, don't get it the things that touching me
37:11
Speaker 12: in this moment. But I know that I need to
37:15
Speaker 12: play dead. I don't know how to explain because the
37:18
Speaker 12: brand don't think is don't do things with conscience. Only
37:22
Speaker 12: this And even when he come to me, I was
37:25
Speaker 12: with the white short because all my hands blow up,
37:29
Speaker 12: so my bag was blad and when she he come
37:34
Speaker 12: close to me to check me, I was thinking only
37:37
Speaker 12: about that stomach moving. After that, they burn all the
37:41
Speaker 12: buges and I wait until the fire come close to me,
37:45
Speaker 12: and I need to choose or burn alive or run
37:48
Speaker 12: to the road or get inside to the car I saw.
37:52
Speaker 12: So I run like a crazy and I was in
37:55
Speaker 12: this car. The terrors don't see me and don't shut
37:57
Speaker 12: on the car at lack two hour entail. Some angel
38:02
Speaker 12: come and take me.
38:03
Speaker 1: So Keller and rescued you.
38:05
Speaker 12: Yeah, chance three afternoon.
38:07
Speaker 2: Such an remarkable story of survival, and for you to
38:10
Speaker 2: be here now in Australia sharing it with all of us,
38:13
Speaker 2: it's just incredible. Now, Maza, while you were hiding, you
38:16
Speaker 2: took six minutes of footage.
38:19
Speaker 1: Just two days ago you realized that.
38:22
Speaker 2: Ramo over here, an Israeli police officer, was in that footage.
38:28
Speaker 1: Ramo, tell us what you were doing on October seven.
38:32
Speaker 11: On October seven, I arrived to the Pestival Nova six
38:37
Speaker 11: twenty two, eight minutes before it all started. Six thirty
38:44
Speaker 11: thousands of rockets. It's the first time I'm doing a
38:49
Speaker 11: shift in Festival Nova. You know, in the police Israel
38:52
Speaker 11: police force, you can get extra money if you go
38:54
Speaker 11: to guard a football game, a festival game. So it
38:59
Speaker 11: was my first time in the five years that time
39:01
Speaker 11: in the police force as an investigator. And from there
39:06
Speaker 11: fifteen hours of fighting and the rescuing and rescuing.
39:14
Speaker 6: It was a.
39:16
Speaker 11: Hell of a day.
39:18
Speaker 1: How many terrorists did you come up against? It in
39:21
Speaker 1: those hours.
39:24
Speaker 11: In the Pestival Nova It was thirty six cups with
39:28
Speaker 11: olive pistols against three hundred and fifty terrorists. They were
39:33
Speaker 11: heavily armed. In the Nova party, there were four thousand
39:39
Speaker 11: teenage innocent young people that only wanted to have fun,
39:45
Speaker 11: to party together, and.
39:55
Speaker 2: You spent your time trying to fight the terrorists and
39:58
Speaker 2: rescue as many people as you could. Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
40:02
Speaker 2: And what sort of brutality did you come up against?
40:05
Speaker 2: I mean, you've said, this is nothing like anything else
40:10
Speaker 2: you've ever come across in your life.
40:11
Speaker 1: Can you share with.
40:13
Speaker 2: Australians who are hearing international aid organizations trying to deny
40:19
Speaker 2: the violence against women, the brutality by her mask? Can
40:22
Speaker 2: you tell us some of what made this so different,
40:26
Speaker 2: so unlike anything else you'd ever fought against.
40:30
Speaker 11: In the party, you had the Jews, Muslims, christian drews
40:34
Speaker 11: from all over the world having fun put together, and
40:39
Speaker 11: the trees didn't care if your Muslim Christian drews. All
40:45
Speaker 11: they wanted to do is to kill as much as
40:48
Speaker 11: they can, kidnap as much as they can, and make
40:51
Speaker 11: a lot of destruction on that day. For example, the
40:55
Speaker 11: first citizen victim was a Bedoing. She was pregnant with
41:01
Speaker 11: hejab and they shot her multi times. They didn't care.
41:05
Speaker 11: Is that she is a pregnant Yeah. Also from my
41:10
Speaker 11: biggest beding city in Israel. Many came to say to help. Unfortunately,
41:15
Speaker 11: some of them killed on the road and some of
41:17
Speaker 11: them kidnapped until today I will not say the family name,
41:22
Speaker 11: but some of them until kidnam So there are still.
41:26
Speaker 2: Muslim hostages right now being held by Harmas and Gaza.
41:30
Speaker 2: This isn't just a war against Jews. This is all Israelis.
41:33
Speaker 2: And I think that's something that many people forget, that
41:35
Speaker 2: about twenty percent is that right of the Israeli population is.
41:39
Speaker 11: Muslim neighbors living together. I study in a Jew school.
41:46
Speaker 1: You are Muslim, yourself name of Muslim, myself.
41:49
Speaker 11: I'm bedoing Swiss Muslim.
41:51
Speaker 1: But proudly Israeli exactly.
41:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, Marsil, can you tell me about the moment a
41:57
Speaker 2: couple of days ago when you realized that you had
42:00
Speaker 2: this extraordinary connection with Rama.
42:05
Speaker 12: Wow, he not saved only two hundred, two hundred, they say,
42:10
Speaker 12: my time, two hundred people from the party He and
42:14
Speaker 12: their Inha friends save many more like me that hiding
42:19
Speaker 12: that don't know what's happening. And only because we saw
42:23
Speaker 12: a policeman that's shotting we get it that, Wow, something
42:27
Speaker 12: is very big happening here. And another thing I live
42:38
Speaker 12: two years in Jerusalem, the fact that I am a
42:42
Speaker 12: black woman and my parents come from Ethiopia, like and
42:46
Speaker 12: they immigrant. I'm burn in Israel and rest in Israel
42:49
Speaker 12: all my life in school and all my friends from
42:52
Speaker 12: all the colors and sewers in Israel and Jerusalem with
42:55
Speaker 12: Arab life, our friends. And after the other festival, I
43:00
Speaker 12: have really afraid. I'm scared because it's triggered for me.
43:06
Speaker 12: And when I know Remo and this story and the
43:09
Speaker 12: person he is, the fear that I have is less
43:15
Speaker 12: because I know and Israel. I have Muslim that fight
43:18
Speaker 12: that know the true and maybe is what you know
43:23
Speaker 12: save us all of this.
43:26
Speaker 11: It's crazy.
43:26
Speaker 1: The world have to.
43:27
Speaker 12: Know that we deal with monsters. Is not about the land,
43:31
Speaker 12: is not about like people screen free Palestine because they
43:35
Speaker 12: care about the Palestine. And I really understand that. But
43:39
Speaker 12: the Drahmas use them, you know, they use them the Palestine.
43:43
Speaker 12: It's not us, like we have to understand that. If
43:46
Speaker 12: you want to help us, help us to done with
43:50
Speaker 12: the Hamas.
43:52
Speaker 1: What's your message on.
43:54
Speaker 11: That day on seventh October, that Black day? You saw
43:56
Speaker 11: that everyone needs well Jews, Muslims, Christian Jews, everyone's tend
44:04
Speaker 11: together defend the home together against that pilateau. It was
44:10
Speaker 11: like everyone walked like one unit, team, one book, one
44:14
Speaker 11: family against family. Yeah exactly.
44:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I have to say that's how I
44:19
Speaker 2: and all of my viewers feel as well, that we
44:22
Speaker 2: are one family with both of you. Thank you both
44:24
Speaker 2: for having the courage to be here and to share
44:27
Speaker 2: your stories publicly.
44:28
Speaker 1: So extraordinary.
44:33
Speaker 2: And it must be so hard for them to relive
44:35
Speaker 2: the most traumatic moment in their lives over and over
44:39
Speaker 2: again because they are telling their story to raise awareness
44:42
Speaker 2: about what happened on October seven, because the rest of
44:45
Speaker 2: the world just wants to forget about it and move on,
44:48
Speaker 2: including our own government.
44:51
Speaker 1: Well after the.
44:51
Speaker 2: Break, former chief executive of Australia's National Nuclear Organization will
44:56
Speaker 2: join me to speak about today's big policy and now statute. Well,
45:06
Speaker 2: let's return to today's top story. Now Opposition leader Peter
45:09
Speaker 2: Dutton confirming the location for seven nuclear reactor sites if
45:14
Speaker 2: he wins the next election. Anthony Albanezi was quick to
45:18
Speaker 2: slam the policy, but to take the politics out of
45:21
Speaker 2: the equation, let's bring in now the former Chief Executive
45:24
Speaker 2: of the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organization, Adie Patterson.
45:29
Speaker 1: Adie, welcome to the show.
45:31
Speaker 2: Look, Australia actually has the world's largest deposits of uranium,
45:37
Speaker 2: almost one third of the global total as I understand it,
45:41
Speaker 2: Yet all of that valuable resource is currently exported. Do
45:45
Speaker 2: you think this is a reason why it might make
45:47
Speaker 2: sense to have a nuclear energy industry of our own here?
45:54
Speaker 13: It does make sense. I mean we could develop the
45:57
Speaker 13: ability to make nuclear fuel that adds a huge amount
46:00
Speaker 13: of value, about a thousand times to the uranium ore
46:03
Speaker 13: that we send out in the form of yellow cake
46:05
Speaker 13: at the moment, I think it's really important to recognize
46:08
Speaker 13: that uranium is powering all of the lowest carbon reliable
46:13
Speaker 13: energy in the world, apart from hydropower which is about
46:18
Speaker 13: the same size, and some geothermal in a place like
46:22
Speaker 13: the North of New Zealand. But the lowest reliable always
46:27
Speaker 13: on power comes from uranium, and a chunk of that
46:33
Speaker 13: is dug out of the ground and processed into yellow
46:36
Speaker 13: cake and shipped out of the country.
46:38
Speaker 2: Look, are there still concerns about nuclear waste and what
46:42
Speaker 2: to do with it? Should we develop seven nuclear reactors
46:46
Speaker 2: here in Australia.
46:50
Speaker 13: Well, I think I'll talk first about the reactor technology
46:53
Speaker 13: and its safety, because if you can't have the reactors,
46:56
Speaker 13: you can't have the wasst And I think it's really
46:59
Speaker 13: important to recognize eyes that the gen cost report of CSIRO,
47:05
Speaker 13: the premiers on on SBS tonight, work with something called
47:12
Speaker 13: the levelized cost of electricity, that's the cost of electricity
47:15
Speaker 13: at the fence before you put it into the grid. Okay,
47:18
Speaker 13: there's published engineering data for re search. It's been done
47:23
Speaker 13: in Germany and in Texas. The academic is a guy
47:27
Speaker 13: called Robert Idell. I have spent a number of hours
47:31
Speaker 13: with other colleagues talking to him. He has written a
47:33
Speaker 13: paper that doesn't look at the levelized cost of electricity,
47:37
Speaker 13: which is what the gen Cost report does by CSIRO,
47:40
Speaker 13: but what is called the levelized full system cost of electricity.
47:45
Speaker 13: It includes things, so the levelized cost of electricity for
47:49
Speaker 13: you don't need to know bring.
47:50
Speaker 1: Our viewers into this.
47:51
Speaker 2: Just to bring our viewers into this, the CSIRO, I think,
47:54
Speaker 2: has said that it would cost about eight point five
47:56
Speaker 2: billion dollars per nuclear reactor.
47:59
Speaker 1: That's what you're told about.
48:00
Speaker 2: But you're saying that's not an accurate picture of the
48:03
Speaker 2: full cost.
48:07
Speaker 13: Well, that cost is irrelevant once you understand that the
48:12
Speaker 13: levelized cost, the cost that is the one that puts
48:16
Speaker 13: the electrons on the grid, and more importantly, the levelized
48:20
Speaker 13: full system cost. So the levelized cost which CSIRO uses
48:26
Speaker 13: is not the same as the cost of the consumer
48:28
Speaker 13: that we experience. To put it in real terms, in
48:32
Speaker 13: published work based on real grids in Germany and in Texas,
48:37
Speaker 13: the levelized full cost of electricity in Texas for solar panels,
48:45
Speaker 13: for example, is one hundred and twenty two US dollars
48:49
Speaker 13: per mega.
48:49
Speaker 2: What our ady Patterson, I apologize. We are out of time. Look,
48:53
Speaker 2: I think our viewers that might have sounded very complicated,
48:56
Speaker 2: But I tell you what, we're going to learn a
48:57
Speaker 2: lot more about nuclear technology in the next ten months
49:00
Speaker 2: before the next election. You never know, we'll all end
49:03
Speaker 2: up sounding like eighty Patterson. I see you tomorrow at eight.
49:06
Speaker 2: Here's poor Murray