Latest / Skin Anarchy / Transforming the Future of Skin Peels and Formulations with Dr. Linder of Linder Health

Transcript

Transforming the Future of Skin Peels and Formulations with Dr. Linder of Linder Health · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Two Ander.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is your most episode, and I have such an amazing guest today.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I am a huge fan of her work.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: She is truly a genius.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: If any of you have heard of PCA Skin, she was the chief scientific officer and behind all of the amazing brilliant formulas that were developing her PCA skin.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And now she is starting her own or has started her own line.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the second time around.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, I'm gonna introduce you guys to Dr.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Linder, who is behind Linder Help.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, Dr.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Linder.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to interview you and to chat with you.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I really love the new line.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: This is such a pleasure.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love talking to another like-minded, nerdy, geeky, science-focused person.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I love the fact that your audience is into it as well.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: We love science here, and I think that's what, you know, really kind of gets us going.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, from what I hear from you guys listening in, that's what you guys chime in about.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm the same way.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: So and I think your line is truly a testament to great science.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've been really loving it, and that trust me, you're gonna hear me rave about that a lot during this episode because I think that, you know, it's very important to create truly meaningful solutions in this space.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you've done exactly that, you know, with the new line.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So before I dive into that though, Dr.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Linder, I would love to learn about your background and if you could tell us, you know, what got you into dermatology and obviously, you know, in the beauty space and the skin space and the aesthetic space as well.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for asking.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: I am one of those kids who always wanted to know more.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, totally curious, dove into everything.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't know if you remember the Richard Scary books are about how everything works in the background.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Those were my favorite.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I always, yes, and my both my dad and brother are engineers, my mom's a teacher.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I really knew I wanted to do something in the STEM field.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I was looking at engineering and medicine, and I wasn't even quite sure what it'd be.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so I went into engineering first.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually ended up graduating with a degree in bioengineering and in chemistry.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then I decided I really wanted to be more hands-on with the people piece.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd had an experience working in a hospital when I was young and sort of decided to go back into it and decided to go to med school, loved gross anatomy, which sort of was unexpected given I was one of those kids that didn't like to get dirty and stuff.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: I always said I have, and even still, I really need to be able to wear gloves to touch disgusting things.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: But when I can, I can, you know, have blood shooting on the ceiling and in my hair, and it doesn't matter to me.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I just wanted to know how things work.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I in the end, the human body to me was the thing that was truly almost the most magical, right?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I I think I kind of think of the human body as almost being another cosmos.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's as much to learn inside as we have to learn going outside into the greater ether.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it just fostered so much just beauty and how it all comes together.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think as I got into medicine, I am a painter as well and have always loved the arts.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I have this kind of left brain, right brain engineering and art side of myself.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I took a dermatology elective on the recommendation of a friend who was also an engineer and painter, it was like, this is it, this is magic.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I instantaneously knew that this was it because I could see what was going on and it's a lot of pattern recognition.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you layer on top of it the piece where you get deeply personally engaged with people, I mean, it is a field where people come to you with their absolute vulnerabilities that in many ways they hide even that sense of vulnerability sometimes from their own families.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And when we do studies in dermatology, we often talk about quality of life as like a big piece of it.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so that just it just was a place where I could feel a sense of purpose, both in taking care of people, the social emotional piece, the medical piece.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I discovered that you could really develop formulation, it, you know, then brought back in that problem solving and part of chemistry.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it was sort of like this amalgamation that was unexpected for me that that came together.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love what you said about the people aspect of this because that's something that no one ever really talks about.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like we understand that dermatology touches a lot of lives.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think all of us at one point we've had a bump or acne or something that's happened where we're like, oh my gosh, you know, what's going on?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's such an immediate thing, too, where it's like, you know, what shows on your skin, it immediately impacts you.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't talk about how much dermatology is a field in medicine that's very like, you know, people driven.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's about that very much, you know, and so it's really fascinating to me that you you say that.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I it's very cool that you have such a robust background, though.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, engineering is no joke.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: That must have been, you know, quite a transition for you.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, well, you know, I loved it.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: It was like because I actually like the physics and the chemistry and the biology.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so bioengineering sort of combined all that together.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then I went on after Durham and did a Mo's skin cancer fellowship and also did a laser fellowship.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: So sort of again, like layering on top all these things that I think over time, each one of them has benefited me in what I'm doing now.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I think that's the way it is in STEM, right?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Is that we just keep sort of gathering knowledge and sort of recognizing patterns that come together that then make us better at what we currently do so that we can actually be a benefit to society.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you just keep piling on the knowledge.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's that's really the difference.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think a long time ago, one of my mentors said that, you know, that's the difference between, you know, just a normal doctor and a great doctor is that they'll never stop learning.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they'll never want to stop.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that's so, so important.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I want to ask you, I mean, obviously, like, you know, you're brilliant when it comes to, you know, product formulation.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I am I've loved the products in the PCA lineup.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're behind all of them and you were behind the creation of such a beautiful line there, but now you've done it again here, you know, with with your new company.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: So why why did you want to come back and create a new line and a new skincare company?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great idea.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: So what basically happened was my partner and husband of, you know, we've been been friends for almost 30 years.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: We, after he finished Harvard Business School, I had the idea.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, what happened was I got my own melasma worse during my fellowship because I lasered it and made it worse.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then right there is like my own experience was I came the dermatologist and my skin was awful and I needed to solve it.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a skincare rep from another company, actually, it was my skin pseudocal rep, recommended I tried the what was at the time called Physician's Choice of Arizona Peel.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was this tiny little company based in Arizona, and I tried them and I worked, and so I got curious.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: And my husband and I were on vacation in Scottsdale, and then we stopped by in the office after, you know, of course, giving heads up.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I so connected with the person who was doing RD, and then I had some ideas around some sunscreens and things and started working with her.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: And over time and relationship, Richard and I ended up purchasing that nugget of a company and then founding together what became PCA skin.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so in the process, my chemist, who is still my chemist, I actually hired her out of Canada to PCA skin.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we, together with our team, formulated that entire line and formulated or reformulated.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as time went on, you of course need to update.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really important with any skincare company is you don't rely and sit on your laurels, you keep updating, understanding the science.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we grew that in into 72 countries and 15,000 offices.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I really loved it.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: It kept my brain sparking in so many different areas.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: I really, you know, obviously got deep into product formulation and then also understanding the business side and how you can really make things better for practices.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I really loved working with skincare specialists and clinicians across the board because I have a belief that when you go and get a treatment, that hands-on component, that empathy of someone talking to you one-on-one and doing a treatment is part of the treatment, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody listening, caring, listening, and then most importantly, making great recommendations as to what products one should use at home because you're what you're doing at home matters as much as what you do in the office or with the treatment.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's like the dentist, right?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: If you just go to the dentist and get your teeth checked and cleaned two times a year, it's not going to do it.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: You got to brush your teeth every day too.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how you actually stay healthy and meaning you do both pieces.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I think taking care of your skin is is much the same.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: So back to your question of like, why do it again, right?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: So basically through that process, I, you know, we burned the candle at both ends, traveled all over the world.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then, like many physicians, I decided to have children later in life, and that was a struggle.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: And and I struggled with postpartum depression and fertility and these different things.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we decided we needed just kind of take a step back for our personal health.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then it was time for PCA skin to go on and grow and flourish in its own way.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like having a child go off to college.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: You have to watch them go off and have their own successes and their own failures.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it brings me great joy to see that line continue to be successful.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it is like a it is like my first baby.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so during COVID, you know, things really I got super curious again, as did some of my team, which had gone on and and created and become consultants and created some of their own different companies and things.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, one of my team members during COVID went through a difficult family situation.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: She actually came and lived with myself and my three daughters and my husband.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, naturally these people are part of my family.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we do honestly is we read PubMed.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we are truly geeky.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: We are geeky women.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: I love Bub.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and so during COVID, you know, I think all of us were trying to think and like what's going on.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And as a result, the idea of longevity and overall health and expanding, you know, the idea of health span rather than just lifespan, which is that quality of life being longer, really, really triggered us.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's actually where we started first was thinking about the whole body, even in the supplement space, inflammation, you know, what's going on in that realm.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where the ideas kind of started bubbling up.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then Danae Marklin, who's been with me since like 2005, she and I and and some of the other team members were working on an education platform that we wanted to expand education for anyone who's in the skincare space.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we started doing that.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was just, you know, great time for online learning.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so we were, you know, learning more about how to do that and expanding that.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: And subsequently, that was a that was a separate company, and now we've we've actually integrated that into what is now their Lender Health.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: There is an online educational portal that we actually have for the people on clinicians who partner with us.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's gotten interimped from that to a certain education company.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then as we were basically making and testing and playing with peels for ourselves and some home care ideas and products, they turned about to be so good that we decided we actually needed to do this again.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it didn't start out with like, okay, we need to do another company.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: It really was just like the ideas percolated up and we were all kind of doing different things, and it became, you know, a family business again and another sense, except now it's my greater family.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's these wonderful women that have been a part of my life for a really long time now.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we saw an opportunity that there's, you know, people, there was a space to bring what we understand about aging and longevity into the skincare and peel space.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that peels really had not truly been updated in 50 years.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so we saw the need for that.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: We saw a way that we could make it better.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And of a Dr.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Ivana Vakovich, who's my PhD in organic chemistry, is truly brilliant.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: She has, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of different products she's created and worked through.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it just worked out so beautifully.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then senesin cells just became my absolute obsession.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And some new data came out around how we can affect senes cells, both with peels as well as home care.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was sort of the impetus and the spark that opened the whole idea up.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you're like, I have to do this, like at this point I'm summoned.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was one of those things where I just have to do it.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, and then my my third daughter went off to kindergarten to last year.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: It is like, okay, now I really have the time to put into this.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: And and that, and so the timing worked out to be right, and and my team, you know, had finished different projects that they were working on, and we could come together and had this have this bubble up as something positive that came out of COVID.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think this is like so brilliant because first of all, like the line is it's absolutely brilliant.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the reason I feel that way as a consumer, like off the bat, you know, when I felt the products, I was like immediately like, this is great because I prefer lighter weight products that are still gonna do something great for my skin.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So immediately it felt great.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the peel part is what really got me because these peels are so interesting that you know, I've never seen this before where it's like you're not scared of a peel.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let me put it that way because I'm scared.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I remember the first time I went and got a facial peel done, and it was the most, for me at least, you know, in my own mind, the most scary thing because I didn't know what to expect.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like when I went through it for the first time, it wasn't like anything drastic, but like it was still something where I felt like, okay, I've taken a big step here, you know what I mean?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And because I'm more of like an at-home topical kind of person, you know?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you when you're talking about the peels, I was, you know, I'm really intrigued because these are very like the downtime is like next to nothing on these, you know?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so how is this like what can you expand a little bit on some of the things you mentioned?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, can you talk about senescent cells and and all that good stuff?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to learn more about that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: So we we came at this from two things.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: One, the science base, which I'll touch on in just a second around the senescent.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then the other piece, so actually let me start with that because what happened was is this new data came out that alpha hydroxy acids, which are your things like, you know, lactic glycolic, those fruit-based acids, if you keep them in a pH between three and 3.5, they can actually reverse and kill off senescent cells.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And senescent cells are those zombie cells that worsen inflammation, are likely a major part of aging.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And also the fact that using the right percentages, the right kind, using something like lactic acid, it's actually been shown to reverse that.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was one thing we started working with.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then understanding that it's not just so traditionally peels are put in alcohol.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: People tend to traditionally do higher percentages because they think more is better, they'll get more of an effect, you know, they do, or they'll lower the pH.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And all this, of course, relates to inflammation, irritation, things being uncomfortable, stinging, etc.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And like many, you know, traditional American things, it's like more is better.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we now understand it's the exact opposite, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like all things in medicine, we now know controlling inflammation, being in the sweet spot where you harness the immune system to do just what you want it to do, but not let it get out of control.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so by actually choosing the right percentages, the right combinations, the right types of peel ingredients in the right vehicle, you can actually get the peel to penetrate deeper and therefore have more effect.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget, because of cell signaling, you don't have to have the peel go all the way to the dermis to have an effect in the dermis, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: By choosing the right ingredient, you can actually trigger cell signaling.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: So rather than it just being that the benefit of the peel is the cell turnover, we now are actually able to do things around incentives, triggering pigment, controlling pigment, all these different things, what we put into it.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we can think about the skin is, as you know, a lipid bilayer, right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it is both you need to have a part that loves the lipid and you need to have a part that loves the water.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if you design something well, you can get better penetration by taking those two things in effect.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's actually a part of the peel ingredients as well.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you get more of an effect.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: So this, I we really talk about this as being the next generation of chemical peels that they have not really been updated in 50 years.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: And the other big thing is traditionally people have done peels using ingredients like TCA, phenol, which are quite actually caustic, and they actually trigger necrosis, right?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: So rather than which then triggers more inflammation.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I no longer like to use those ingredients.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: I obviously use those ingredients for 20 years, but it's now knowing that there's something better that could be done.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's a reason why ingredients like resourcinol haven't been available in the EU for a long time for the same kind of reason.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then I really limit glycolic acid to only patients that really have oily acneic skin where I'm really going after acne.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because in that case, it's that the alpha hydroxy acid, glycolic acid is a very swallow molecule.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so it absorbs really quickly, moves through, and it actually dehydrates the skin.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's thinking about from a scientific level, rather than just let's keep doing the things that we've done all the time because they work.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: We now actually can understand how the chemistry works to choose ingredients in a better way.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so it really is as a result, an update of what's going on.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then the benefit you have is not only are they highly effective, but there's no downtime.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: That whole idea of that flaking, peeling, the reason why it's called a peel, because you used to peel like a snake, or you do bread like Samantha and Sex in the City, that doesn't have to happen.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: By using malic acid and salicylic acid as part of it, you can you chop off the carrot syndicates in tiny little pieces until they come off like dandruff.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like fine little flakes.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it, you know, if you're wearing black, you might see it.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: But that whole idea that you need to peel like a skin, like a snake.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like that's like yeah, like I think that's what scared.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, even for me, like when I before I even got a peel, that was the scary part was those horror stories of like, oh my god, your face is gonna look like a freaking tomato.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you're just gonna be, yeah, and that's scary, but like I there's literally no downtime.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I've noticed also, like, you guys have like high concentrations of like mandelic acid in a couple of them, you know.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I love Mendelic, it's one of my favorite things.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's where I it's so fascinating what you said about glycolic and how AHAs are like the really, really small, you know, the smaller acids, and they do go deeper because Mendelic to me has been such an interesting ingredient for so long because of the larger size.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I that that aromatic ring, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: That aromatic ring in many ways mirrors the the structure of salophylk acid.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it acts a little bit like a beta and an alpha alpha hydroxy acid at the same time.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so and it and the so the way it cuts, so the way it breaks up the skin as well as the way that it penetrates.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and I feel like it's the results are actually better, to be honest.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: The results are much better.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I just I feel like glycolic for me, and I don't know if anyone out there listening can relate to this, but whenever I use glycolic acid on my skin, like it really irritates it because I don't have very active acne lesions.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like if you're just somebody who's looking for like a maintenance thing when you're going into your the you know, aesthetic office or wherever you're, you know, you're going for your treatments, you're not looking for this extreme level of, you know, I need this extreme treatment.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're looking for maintenance level treatments, this is just logical, in my opinion.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because if you're if you're wanting an extreme beneficial outcome, it's also the logical thing because the way it comes together, you will get an effect like as effective or more so than what we used to see by doing high percentage glycolic acid, the phenol-based, like the you know, some like some of these peels that have small amounts of phenol, the TCA-based peels, you will get more than that because we're not letting the inflammation happen, you're not going down that road.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can actually get more of the benefits without the negative part.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not having to like go in the negative part of the wound healing process.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so you actually get a better result than you would like.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, the reason why we felt the need to launch the peels, we did just even one of them, and the results were so much better.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: They were equivalent to what we had seen from doing, you know, series of superficial chemical peels in the past.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: So when you do a series on this, it it does that much more.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people under, and what the other thing we did is we added TXA to them, transeczamic acid.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And by putting it in the right pH, you get a better absorber absorption of TXA.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it has the benefit to lifting pigmentation.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And pigmentation really is the first sign of aging for all skin types.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: We used to think about it really as, you know, especially for those with darker melanin, but it's actually true for Fitzpatrick ones and twos as well.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you just don't necessarily realize that someone might come in, you know, if they're coming into a clinician's office, they might say, Oh, I want these fine lines and wrinkles.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: But if you just make the skin more even, the skin looks more useful.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, these peels also trigger collagen, elastin, improve fine lines and wrinkles and hyperpigmentation and all these different things at the same time, it's looking great.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: And you can get it the same day you go into an office.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to stop any of your medication.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: You can do it the same, you don't have to take a break from your retinols and all those things that we used to always say you had to do with peels.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so you don't have to have that, you know, once I get excited and want to do something, I do the same thing when I get my hair cut or colored.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: I want to do it that day, right?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can actually make a concept these somebody the same day.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: You can do it year round.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter if you're in Arizona where it's 120 degrees, you can still get a feel.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: There is no longer this idea of peel season.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I spend a third of my time in Jacksonville, Wyoming, and there we have to worry about you know the dryness, it's extremes of different.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: sorts.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can do it in all these different environments, which as a clinician was always the hard part.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we really thought about, you know, what are the pain points for both the clinician and the esthetician and the dermatologist, whoever's treating the patient.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: So to make it so there's no downtime.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's, I mean, we're talking mild, mild tingling.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: This is not a painful thing in any way whatsoever.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I say people, you know, scale of zero to 10, what's it feel like?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like a one or two usually.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just, they're just lovely.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it all comes down to how the formula is put together.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's all about myself and my team do everything with great intention because it came out of a geekiness, right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: This didn't come out of marketing.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: This came out of just, you know, how do we try like this in this space that we've known forever with you know 60 years experience between us that an RD side that like how do we how do we improve things?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that's really the heart of like why I personally like as a consumer, I fell in love with skincare because of that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like exactly what you said.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think a lot of us did, you know, because when you think about skincare, I mean, I think about oh wow, there's a lot of science here.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of cool stuff and there's a lot of stuff I can do topically for my skin without putting you know injecting it with something or getting a you know facelift or something dramatic.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of like flexibility that's put into the consumer's hand when you just give them great products to work with, you know?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like it's a magical thing, you know, in a lot of ways because it gives people a level of confidence I think that we often overlook.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think that there's a lot to be said about you know topical products in that way.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think, you know, obviously you go to a dermatologist, you go to your esthetician and you get these great procedures done.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: But what about like you said, you know, when you come home and that maintenance part when you're having to follow certain like you know just healthy routines day in and day out, by doing that, you're you feel like I'm in control of my skin.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I can challenge or whatever comes up.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really important to me as a consumer.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like at some point a lot of the brands I see that are like the giant brands that go like, you know, they blow up and then they kind of like sell their souls because it's like where did the science go?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like where did all the innovation go?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think I I just fell in love with when I first saw your brand and I, you know, I tried the peels.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've tried the peels I've tried the line and I fell in love with the idea that you know what this is really something that it's not like you said it's not marketing.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's really digging deeper into what are the new things we've discovered on the research front and how can we apply that now, you know?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I think a lot of people are shying away from I hate to say it but like that I see it every day.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you're I mean you've seen this right there's so many brands out there, especially in skincare that have products that have been out there for a long time and they haven't changed them and they're still it's still like the you know major sellers you're like but but we know so much more.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like things have improved so much.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like you know it's I think companies should be bold and let us know like you know there's a better way to do this.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and I do think that's the special thing about you know we're a small nimble company that's really at the you know the beginning stages and so we can be super nimble.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: We can go into it but we have the experience and have the relationships where we know we you know we only use FDA approved labs.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: We know how to actually formulate we you know do all the repeat tests repeat patch tests and heavy metal and you know all those things where we test all of our ingredients so that they're clean.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: I like to think about it as like you know we meet all these trendy things without ever thinking about being trendy like yeah we were clean before like people talked about the idea of being clean.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah that's just good science and good yes exactly yeah you were literally I was about to complete your sentence that's just good science you know basically yeah like just formulate things from like the best place possible.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like you know make sure you go like I don't understand why that's such a hard concept for people to grasp nowadays.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's just like if you're gonna do something that is rooted in science you have to follow the protocols.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: You have to do things and the scientific method is there for a reason.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, forever like millennia.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it's how it's I love the fact that consumers are really educating themselves and understanding ingredients in a deeper way like they're educating themselves they're learning about things people are learning how to read inky lists on you know the back of ingredient list of on the bottle yeah yeah it's so important to know that it's not just a list of ingredients it's how the whole formula is put together where it's put together how it's mixed together where you source the ingredients I like to think about it.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I bake a lot that was my other COVID thing that I did and when you think about it flour sugar eggs all these things that are these basic ingredients form bed and bread and bakery items all over the world right but it's how you put them together that give them their individual flair texture mouthfeel taste right like a non-bread is very different than a croissant even if they have many of the same basic ingredients.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know ghee is different than butter.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's like how you how you refine something use it makes all the difference and so that's how I like to think about it that you have to have the right percentage the right source the right ingredient and how it's all put together and that's the beauty of chemistry.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how you make a better product and because my team's been doing this so long you know we think about everything from the packaging all the testing that happens we put our testing on the website so people can see it and dive into it and see all these different things that we do.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we started out with just in addition to the peels that are for the clinician and the stuff that goes for them on the back bar, just four ingredients to start with.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And those four ingredients are what we think of as being the sort of fundamental universal things that truly are good for all melanin types so from the palest to the darkest skin are for all skin types whether or not someone is acneic or dry and these are the things that fundamentally support the health of the skin.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And again talking about trendy things each one of these things supports the microbiome and they were designed that way before the idea of talking about the microbiome and the skin became sort of something that a hot talking point.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: But again it's the good science because healthy products support the microbiome and that's why they work well because we're controlling inflammation.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And by thinking about that that piece of it.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: No I I didn't mean to interrupt you but no I I wanted to say like I I really like that you are this you know thinking about the microbiome and again you know it's that's just good science because at the end of the day I've always found it to be so interesting how now all of a sudden we've had this you know emergence of these brands that are just now talking about the microbiome.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: The microbiome has been around as soon as you're born you have a microbiome on your skin exactly as you out of the mood yep yeah it's crazy and also like I wanted to mention like the the products for people like just for everybody right so if you guys aren't gonna do the peels like the actual products you've created for you know like the the cleansing and the the serum and the moisturizer they're phenomenal because I find them to be not only really great for if you have like you have a pro-inflammatory kind of skin type, you know, where you're always red or you're always experiencing that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: But even for my skin type I always say you know it's I guess it's combination or in the middle you know some some days I'm like red and some days I'm I'm totally fine you know so I feel like they're just really balancing is that's the experience I've had using them.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And even starting from the cleanser and I never talk about the cleansing step ever because I just it's just not something I focus on as a consumer but your cleanser is phenomenal.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like your fit is amazing.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have it in my shower and I use it every day because it takes everything off and your skin is not stripped.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't feel dry it doesn't feel like it's stretched out you don't feel like you have to go through 15 serum steps to put back what you took off.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: That even something like that, it speaks volumes because now I feel like we've created a culture of just tricking consumers into thinking oh no because you did this now you got to go buy 10 other things because you got to like put it all back in now.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know that stuff like I hate that.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to say like even from the cleansing step, you know, it's really obvious that what you've created is it's beautiful you know it's really really well balanced the whole line.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: That is the highest compliment because it is I do believe the cleanser is as important as everything else.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: You shouldn't have to be doing a double cleanse.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: I know it can be fun but I'm a mom of three kids and a practitioner all these different things like most of us don't have time to do all that.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so the cleanser should be perfect as it is right and so even the the the amount like we thought about even the amount of foam it produces the how it goes on the texture of it the smell of it even and that's the reason why we named it gut cellar and I'll be honest I believe in the we have to take care of our mental health as much as all the other components of health and so I actually take a moment when I wash my face in the morning and take in the scent and I use that as a moment to think about what my intentions of the day are and at the end of the day washing everything off I also think about what I'm grateful for.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: And just talk thinking about intentions and gratitude have actually been shown to what they do for once sense, contentment, happiness and joy is completely supported in the data and what that then does for overall health.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I encourage everybody for your health you know it comes through when we're mentally healthy it shows.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know you've seen somebody where the stress is like just it shows on the skin, right?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: It is the window to our physical self as well as our soul it is the largest organ of the body and we need to take care of it because it is there is the brain skin connection just as we have the gut skin connection and so you know we do have to think about these things.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so the the cleanser is gorgeous it it it takes the smallest amount to actually have an effect the the sunscreen was designed to like just melt into the skin and it's yet a combination where it shows that formulation is everything because it's how it's put together that leaves that that feeling that it melts in I find men like it who are always the hardest only second to children basically in terms of getting the way that they feel sunscreen and the fact that my own daughter when I was testing it was like oh this is my favorite ever my eight year old yeah just with the highest compliment so we chose one that even on ebony skin leaves no ashy color blends in it goes into a man's beard without catching it is not a water resistant sunscreen or sweat resistant because it was designed for every day.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a big believer you approach sunscreen like you do clothing.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: You have one thing that you wear every day you have something else when you're going to the pool you have something else when you're going swimming I grew up in Honolulu and so for me scuba diving and snorkeling and the reef is super important to me.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: We use different sunscreens in those situations based on what they're for and there's no reason to put something on that you don't need.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the biggest tricks I always share with people is do not wear a sweat or water resistant sunscreen every day if you don't need it because those are designed to repel water obviously and so they almost have like a saran wrap kind of feel on the skin and they feel terrible.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Most people don't like the way they feel so save that for when you need it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: On your I want people to wear sunscreen on a daily basis whatever their natural pigment type is because we do know that you know the sun does not only skin cancer but it definitely does aging it goes through window glass and so you need to have that UVA UVB filters to protect yourself.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I always say put your sunscreen next to your toothpaste put it on in the morning when you put it on in the morning when you're brushing your teeth it's great.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: For many people our sunscreen is enough as their daily moisturizer.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know they can just do it's really light.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say like the the consistency and the way it goes on it's like a serum.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not even like a sunscreen.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't feel like you've put like this like like you were saying with a saran wrap I feel like that with like a lot of sunscreens though like the daily ones like I even feel like that with them and it's so heavy and greasy feeling this one none of that like none of it it's just like it's it feels like a really light water cream almost or like a serum that's the best way I can describe it.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you that you just that's exactly the goal.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: That was exactly what we were aiming for is that serum like feel we're like wow this is actually pleasurable to put on.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is and it feels like it just so light and it's it is very like you know all in one where I can see why you say people use it almost like a moisturizer because it's like a water cream.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's honestly what it reminds me of.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like if you're somebody who especially in the summertime months like if you're not looking for that four or five step routine, you know what I mean?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is it's enough.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, wash your face put on your sunscreen you're good to go and then reapply it throughout the day.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's really really nice.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like then I feel like this all comes back to like what you were saying earlier, right?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you really put the science first, you create solutions.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I really see that in every single product in this line like I was gonna actually rave about the the moisturizer in the line it's called luster and it's really I love it.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's one of my favorite moisturizers at this point because again it's lightweight and it doesn't pill and it doesn't make my makeup stick to it and it doesn't do all those annoying things that I feel like a lot of moisturizers do.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know about you Dr.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Linder but I don't really use like heavy moisturizers like in the day because I can't put anything on top of that.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can I find I can even this one the luster which I like to say if it was so all of our packaging has what we call no secondary cartons.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have boxes around them.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have all the extra paper and everything else because I believe the other part about science is you got to take care of the planet which means the packaging is designed to be good for the planet.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you know if it was like in a you know La Mer or something it would be in this big heavyweight jar that kind of cream but instead it comes in this very simple tube so that there's not all that extra stuff.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I can even put this on top of my makeup if I'm feeling dry and I feel like I need a little bit more hydration and it's just like a whipped melt-in kind of feel and it's got this super sexy ingredient in it called the Rose of Jericho, which is one of the resurrection plants those are the plants that when they are don't have access to sunlight, water, they dry up and look dead and basically go into a you know a state where they're no longer yeah they it's like a yeah hibernation state.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then when they have access to those things they bloom to life.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's one of these active ingredients that's actually in this that actually then has these gorgeous regenerative effects.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's I mean it's amazing though like it's a really good moisturizer for everybody too.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's another thing like it's not one of those because you're right like those big jars I mean it's almost for me as a consumer gotten to a point where I really do wait till the nighttime for my moisturizer stuff.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's so bad to say that I do moisturize my face don't get me wrong but like it's not with a conventional moisturizer for the most part because of that reason because it feels like I'm just a ball of grease you know what I mean walking around eating and yeah it doesn't feel good.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like also like through the day like I'm always like self-conscious like do I need to blot my face like and I'm not even an oily skin type and it doesn't it's not that I'm using like heavy moisturizer I just feel like that moisturizing step that we have in conventional skincare routines I feel like it's overkill on top of like a lot of the serums that we use.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I just between dewy and just just grease like exactly those are different on my face.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and so again it's like it goes in that same as we were talking about controlling information.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's got something called in it called redilis which actually calms down the redness it calms things down.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's also a great anti anything you know after any sort of treatment it calms that down.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about just getting that skin at a healthier place and supporting the microbiome and just all these different components.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: I really love it.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's just you know it's a really well thought out line it really shows I mean I feel like for anybody out there who's looking for if you're kind of sick of your routine or all the products where if you can't figure out what's going on with you know if you're breaking out and you don't know which product is caught like causing it, sometimes it's good to just get rid of whatever you're doing and try something new.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like this is a really great option if you are in the market for a new line, if you're looking for one step in your routine that you just can't seem to find anywhere else.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean all the products hit very hard in the sense of they're really great.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said even the cleanser is like an amazing freaking cleanser.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just like that for every single product.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I really recommend like you know in in the sense of yeah it is it's a simple thing where you can you can try just one step you can yeah if you want to just like start over you do that and then you can bring in you know the the fun sexy things that you like to do that that bring you pleasure.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: I talk about you know skin health it doesn't work if you're not compliant.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: So so products should feel great when they go on your skin.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's like a baseline for us they should be highly effective they should be highly safe you know clean all these different things but then as you have other things that you want to individualize you bring them into your routine.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: You can do something for a while and and play with it.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: The one thing that we talked about the microbiome the one thing I really wanted to do is like a first serum like step was what we call a pep because it's a hyaluronic acid that melts in no stickiness and the what makes it special it's super hydrating and both a humectic as well as an occlusive so it really protects the microbiome that's there.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's an adaptive which I don't know any other product on the market that currently does this where if it is hot and humid it has an open structure to allow the skin to breathe and just takes in the amount of water that it needs.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then if it's cold and dry the structure of the molecules close up and it actually adds as more of an occlusive.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you as you're moving in and out of air conditioning, getting on a plane whatever it may be, the product adjusts to what you need in the moment.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: In addition it has small molecule hyaluronic acid that actually triggers your body to think that it needs to produce because it's absorbed to produce new hyaluronic acid.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you're actually producing some of your own hyaluronic acid so you're plumping the skin that way and then it has the peptide our gyroline which is the one that's been the most like Botox right it works on the same receptor as Botox and all the different neurotoxins so when and studies show that when you use it twice a day it actually reduces the fine lines and wrinkles as a result of contraction.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think of this as my like injectable in a bottle in addition to being my adaptogen and my greatest microbiome support.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: So again so it's like the perfect little thing for healthy skin to help with that you know both good for the young as well as as somebody my age I'm over 50 that sort of wants to work on keeping my skin youthful and and fine lines like the fine lines like under the eyes especially like I don't use like I don't use really a lot of eye cream so like this is a really great option for any of you who are starting to see like little fine lines like your mouth you could do it just in that part of your face if you wanted to you could use this as your eye cream.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly it's better than you'll find out there as an eye as an eye cream for those fine because it's actually working on that contraction piece.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: The science is there like the science comes first and you have to make sure everything's bioavailable it's stable you know there's no just sprinkling things in to make it sound interesting.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know we we call that fairy dusting right in the industry.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: And there's no extra stuff.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of you know sometimes I've I've had somebody talk about you know some they're a clean line you know they created the line because it's clean line and I looked at the ingredient list I'm like there is so much extra stuff in this like that's not that's not what clean is and it's so I kind of find that it's again a cheap yeah it's a orthodoxy moron I feel like I feel like a moron in the industry now because everyone's talking about clean beauty and everyone's like I need clean products I'm like really why is your ingredient list like 50 things then that's not clean at all.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care if you have five thickeners in there and whatever there's it's still stuff you have in there that shouldn't be in you know what I mean you don't need it like and then choose better.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah you can choose better exactly like at the end of the day get what you need figure out what your skin like what are your real you know concerns and I always say this like and I'm sure you can see the logic in this Dr.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Linda because I think in medicine we're trained to look for the chief complaint right I mean that's the like the fundamentals of medicine is like the first thing you learn.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like if consumers just did that where you you guys you sit down look at your face or your skin and say what if my what is my chief complaint?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like what am I really worried about?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Let's target that one thing.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you figure that out and you go find the products that have the science that can fix that that will immediately eliminate the clutter in on your vanity and in your bathroom and you know what I mean you will save thousands of dollars by doing that.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where I I really really fell in love with your products immediately because the science shows you know what I mean it's really geared for solutions.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not geared for just here's another serum here's another moisturizer.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean it's not like let's let's add one more thing to your routine because imagine that's the other thing is We're not one of these large corporations that's trying to get you to buy one more thing, right?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's about okay, what because I'm a consumer first, I'm a physician first, and I'm having those direct relationships with people.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would rather have somebody invest in a couple of products that really work for them, you know, put everything to the side for a bit, get their skin healthy.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we even do that around acne.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: You want to heal the barrier and get the skin healthy first before you actually start using many of the acne treatments.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually the reason why I love peel so much is you know, I just came back from the American Academy of Dermatology and we're really pushing to limit antibiotic use.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: It just needs to happen.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank God.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so and as we all know, like the reason why antibiotics are beneficial in acne is more so for their anti-inflammatory components rather than the antibacterial components.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: So if you actually, that's why they work quickly.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you start, if you use, you can use great skincare to control the inflammation and get the patient going that way.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's also the reason why I adore chemical peels in that situation.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: If I could get every person with acne getting a little peel every two weeks, their skin would clear up so quickly and it just what it does for people's self-confidence is a game changer.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so peels are that is the way to jumpstart taking care of acne.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that was also part of the reason why it was so important that the peels be comfortable is because I know a teenager is not going to do something painful.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: It needs to be not scary, it needs to be a good experience.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then they actually ask their parents to bring them back because they see the benefit and it feels better, they look better, they know it's not a scary proposition.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so we need to be mindful of, as you said earlier, it's not just, you know, the kids that are afraid, it's adults that are afraid too.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: So we need to think about that is an important point.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's so fascinating what you said though about the antibiotics as well.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that could be like a whole different episode.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: But like I'm I've been a huge, and and please don't hate me for it, but I've been a huge advocate, especially recently, about how I think a lot of the drugs and dermatology are a little outdated at this point.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like for sure.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really believe that, you know, because I just think that there's better options, you know, and I think it really is just about the great minds out there like yourself.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you need to like like people need to trust that there are other options and then start finding those solutions and let you know people lead the way to that.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, as consumers, we're so brainwashed into thinking that, for example, like you brought up antibiotics, we're so brainwashed and thinking, no, this is I need this.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have to kill all those bacteria that are causing my acne.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, you don't.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's seven different things of C acne, you know, like that's yeah.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: So and as we know now, this is the story of the microbiome, right?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's that some part has grown out of control.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: We need to get that back in control.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: You need to have bacteria and viruses and all, you know, all these different things on our skin.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's the healthy jungle that is our skin.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's about helping to use things that bring that back into a good place.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: Another cool thing that got presented at the AAD was the idea that for a healthy microbiome of the skin, you need not only to really have the skin well moisturized, you need to have ceramides in place and having an acidic environment applied every so often brings it back into check.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: So chemical appeals are one of the best things that people can possibly do to keep their microbiome of their skin healthy.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, how long does that last?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like the effect of appeal, like in terms of the acidity and like the pH and balancing and all that.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: How long does that really last?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: I am curious about that too.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: Again, this was pretty fresh data.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't see the results of it.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we know that we want to keep the pH in the skin in a certain place, but it's when it's when you're wanting to sort of trigger an effect, I think is when it makes the most sense to acidify the skin.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: Makes sense.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, that's really fascinating.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's really fascinating.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've I mean, I love I love what you've created with Linder Health, Dr.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Linder.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm I'm a huge fan.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know what you're doing, obviously.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, PCA skin was the first line I think that was like a pro line where I was like, oh my God, like my skin is like actually changing for the better, you know.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, knowing that you've been behind that, and then you know, now you're creating a brand new line that is just so efficacious.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm so thankful that you're doing this.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so thankful there like you out here that are really leading the way because we need you.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, because I'm also a MOS surgeon and I really believe in protecting the skin from the sun, one of the things we've done is for a very brief time, anybody who goes to the linderhealth.com site and buys a full-size product will get a full-size castaway, which is the SPF 30 that's broad spectrum.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: Full three out size, it's like a$59 value.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's for anybody.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then one of the things that I just absolutely adore about your podcast is you talk about wellness as a whole.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then one of the things we haven't talked about yet is about how you've got to also take care of sleep, proper food and nutrition, controlling stress.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so those are things that I really value as well.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so one of the things we added to the line was a product we call Calm, which is that magnesium product.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so excited that people are actually starting to talk about it within the consumer space because I've been a big believer in magnesium.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: For any time, it keeps this can help it keeps the whole body healthy, but it actually can help calm down the body as well.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so we added that to the line as well recently.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so, because you guys are such a holistic, wellness, full concept idea around skin is for your listeners.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: If they go to linderhelp.com slash anarchy or just type in anarchy.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: If they buy a full-size product as a separate portion, they will get a full-size column for free.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: So they could try.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I just love how science focused you guys are.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's so good.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Give you guys some gifts.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is so kind.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you guys really avail that, please.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is like I cannot rave enough about your line.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love that you have a supplement in there.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you are, you know, like advocating for use of magnesium in people's everyday.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I couldn't agree with you more.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, it is a whole health kind of approach.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: We do have to have that holistic approach to our our skin, you know, and and I really, really love it.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: The whole line is beautiful.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for everyone listening, I really suggest you guys re-examine, you know, what you're using.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you your skincare is not working for you, there's nothing wrong with you.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably just those products aren't right for you.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a great choice.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: This whole brand, you can pick anything from the brand.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: You will love it.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've tested the product for quite some time now.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I just really, really suggest you guys check it out.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: So anyone who's curious, you can go to linderhealth, so l-in d-e-r health.com and check out the lineup.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also a pro site where you can really read more about the peels if you guys want to learn more about them and you know, just understand like the different acids that are in them.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn more about them as well.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll link everything in the notes for this podcast.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: But Dr.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Linder, thank you so much.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: This has been such an honor to hold you.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: Please, please, I'm so glad.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: As I love finding somebody else who's super like-minded in the geekiness, as you said on the pro site, there's all sorts of education on cellular aging, longevity, mmpi, anything geeky.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, whole sections on senescent cells and how it affects the skin and just anything you could geek out on, you know, niacinamide and NAD and you know, anything you can imagine that are these kind of cutting-edge thought processes, that's what we're interested in too.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where we're going in terms of controlling senescence and pigmentation.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we have so many new interesting things coming down the line that I don't think there's anything else like there out there.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: So the things that I yeah.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I I love that.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you've put the knowledge out there as well.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's so important.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that actually really speaks to what you're creating here.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not there's no marketing here, guys.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is the real deal, you know.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is science.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I really encourage you, go read, you know, read up on your science and read up on all the cool stuff.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everybody's talking about longevity research right now, but no one's really disclosing any information.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to learn about the zombie cells, you know, that are buzzwords now, I think you can go read up on them.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I that's really cool, Dr.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Landriza.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: You have that.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: The education we have, yep.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: And we in the summer we'll be having a product come out that actually works on a home care basis for senesin cells as well as hyperpigmentation and just cellular aging overall, and that's going to be called luminary.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: And well, and the whole idea is that it's multifactorial, it does multiple things, so you're not having to have nine different, you know, bottles on the side of your table because at some point you start laying all it on there and it just it doesn't feel good, right?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't work.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're not designed and they're not designed to go together, and then the peas don't interact with each other and no, it doesn't work, and it does it's not it's it's basically like what is it?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it this is a rule or not in dermatology, but isn't it like after the first or second layer max, like stuff stops working, like nothing's gonna get through.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're piling just stuff on at that point, you know, and it's never gonna touch your skin.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: I I feel like a lot of that is is also I have a huge issue with brands that have like 80 products, you know what I mean, for like one thing, but no, that's really well the one.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, I was gonna say the one takeaway people can take from that is always apply in general your rule, your product thinnest to thickest, right?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that will increase your chance of things absorbing.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess, yeah, because i I think people do always wonder about like serums and like the heavier moisturizers, like where do I, you know, put this?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: But that makes sense.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess the whole goal is just expose yourselves to this stuff, you know, expose it to the actual the formula.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you want.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then just choose the right products for your skin.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just because something works for your friend doesn't mean it should work for you.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: Just because it's like the thing that's trending on TikTok doesn't mean it's the right thing either.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just like science, it's not a your skin is not a trend, guys.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I couldn't agree more.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's like, you know, we talk about the microbiome, we talked about it here.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's not your microbiome is not the same as your like siblings.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's a it's like a fingerprint, you know what I mean?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like your fingerprint.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is your microbiome.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if anybody tells you otherwise, they're lying to you.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, don't don't do more.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget, yeah.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: Eat more fiber, it's the best thing you can do for your gut microbiome.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: And there is that gut skin health coordination.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: So eat more fiber.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's like another good little takeaway.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: Eat fiber, wear your sunscreen, and drink lots of water.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget and sleep.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: And sleep.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: I like the last one.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sleep.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you sleep.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, there's a lot of studies now coming out about that too.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm happy to see that.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people probably that's the reason we did.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, that's why we made calm.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: Vakovich and I did may basically made it for ourselves during COVID because she and I both struggled with sleep, and this was what we made for our own personal use.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then I had enough people sort of like ask me about it.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_02: They were like, well, like, why not add a supplement to a skincare line?
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like if you're controlling stress and you're helping with sleep, it's really great for the skin.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how it happened.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad you put it in there.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: We need that.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's I think people are coming around though.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think people are coming around to understanding it is holistic and you have to really think about what is what's missing in my life.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you're always stressed out, don't ask why you're getting acne.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're stressed out, your cortisol level goes through the roof.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: You have a bunch of stuff going on.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it is about holistic, you know, it can't be just target pimples and that's it, you know, we're done.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not how it works.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to take kind of take care of your mind, body, and then it, and then it, you know, our skin is the window.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: So exactly.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Dr.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Linder.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: This has been such an honor.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, I really have enjoyed speaking with you today.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Likewise.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for inviting me and for taking the time.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a lot of fun.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 56:04
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• 56:09
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• 56:12
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• 56:15
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• 56:27
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• 56:34
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• 56:44
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• 56:47
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• 56:52
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• 56:58
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• 57:04
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• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.