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The Flyboy Podcast: Guest Cathryn "CJ" Yerage · The Flyboy Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Flyboy Podcast, where we bring you just one thing: cool flying stories.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, David Moore, and today I'll be talking with Catherine CJ Yurich.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: CJ has flown the C17, the T6, the T1, as well as the Diamond Series, the TA20s, and D A forties.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: She has more than 2500 flight hours.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: And when I asked CJ how she would like me to introduce her, she said, keep it simple.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Tell him I'm a pilot, I'm a wife, and I'm a mom.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: So three great qualities.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: So CJ, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, David.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I could talk about flying all day.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: So this is awesome.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: So CJ, when did you first know you wanted to become a pilot?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of a funny story because my dad flew almost all my entire life.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: He flew the F4 Phantom, the Strike Eagles.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: So airplanes were something that I was always around.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't until I was in college, and actually my senior year of college, that I decided it's something that I wanted to do.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it goes to the point of when you see somebody who looks like you doing something, you're much more kind of putting yourself in that position.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: So studying abroad in college, I was in Florence and went to have Thanksgiving with some friends that were stationed in England and had Thanksgiving with Brian and Jen Fujimoto, pilot and Wizzo and the strike eagle.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the day after Thanksgiving, Jen had to go to work.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Aren't you mad?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna sit here and eat all your leftover pumpkin pie.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, Absolutely not.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe anybody pays me to do my job.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I really can't wait to go in today.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd heard my dad saying that my entire life.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it was that moment having somebody else, and maybe it's a parental thing too.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you never listen to your parents saying how much she loved her job and she couldn't believe anybody paid her to do it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, I kind of want a career like that as well.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it started the whole ball rolling and looked into OTS, and that's all she wrote.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: TJ, what is your favorite flying memory?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I mentioned my dad blew for all those years, but he and I had never been able to fly together.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: But he has been uh flying locally.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: He's actually gotten really into RPA flying and uses that for science to help study marine life.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: He'll fly around our hometown of Beaufort, North Carolina.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so about a year and a half ago, I finally got to go and we jumped into a Cessna 172, flew around our hometown off the coast of North Carolina.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at sharks and different things to report back to the Duke Marine Lab.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: So finally, after 40 years, I got to fly with my dad, and it was just the best day, which is so funny because we've I've been to so many different places and flown, uh, but finally getting to fly with my dad, who was somebody who coached me through pilot training, and I always go and talk to you about just stories that are happening.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it was a really good momentous day for me.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of cool to see it as a family tradition.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got to get my girls up flying with me now, too.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So your mission time in the Air Force has been flying the C-17.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us about that airplane.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Put us in the cockpit.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's it like to fly?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really funny.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: In pilot training, when you go the heavy track, right?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: You go to T1s or used to, they actually just retired that part of the fleet.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: They will actually dumb down the ailerons.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the only way the jet turns is with spoilers, so it will fly more like a heavy.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: But then I got to C-17 track training and it doesn't fly like that at all.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: On the ground, she handles like a, she drives like a bus, and you have to worry about wingtip clearance and all of that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you get airborne and it's like flying um a Ferrari.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like it turns on a dime, it's fly by a wire.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: The crew construct is the Maze and Basic crew, is two pilots, one loadmaster.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we usually will fly augmented so you have an additional pilot, so then you can have up to an additional loadmaster, so then you have up to a 24-hour duty day, which is pretty long day.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the crews are amazing and it's a strategic airlift aircraft that can then go into a tactical level ingress to deliver humanitarian aid or some snake eaters that are really going to come up and put their boot on your throat.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's pretty cool to see it go from, hey, I'll go land on this super long runway or go land on a dirt strip or kick out a whole bunch of people or things out the back to do a combat airdrop.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um very versatile, beautiful aircraft.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm partial though.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Understandably so.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, CJ, tell us about some of the more complex sorties that you do in the C-17.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny because a lot of people will think about it's just moving cargo from here to there.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: But given some of that versatility in the discussion about, like especially combat airdrop, when you start to talk about large bull periods and large force packaging with the C-17, one of the things that it's meant to employ with is what's called joint forcible entry or JFE for short.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we bring an entire brigade for the army to go then do an airfield seizure and bringing that in.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then you've got all the rest of the combat air forces and other support entities making sure that we can clear that lane to get the mobility through to then deliver the army to get that foothold and where they're at.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the coolest ones I've gotten to do is the weapon school has this major sortie at the very end for each of their weapons officers.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're developing it.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you get all these airplanes out at Nellis in the airspace out there, and you've got hundreds of aircraft together.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the ones I got to do was like almost 30 C-17s and then over 50 C-130s doing a joint forcible entry uh into that airspace.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so then you had all the fighter aircraft, and it just was an amazing, complex thing that you see all this planning go into to then actually get to go through fruition and do execution.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really awesome thing to think about and how much planning goes into even just the contingencies.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like if it's at night and this thing occurs, how do we make sure we deconflict and we safely get all the aircraft through and where we need to and deliver the effect that we're looking for?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: One of my favorite parts is they have what's called the shot ball afterwards, the major debrief of that sortie.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a discussion because um one of the fighters that was providing protection for the uh the MAF as they're coming across the drop zone.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the mobility air force is the MAF, right?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sorry, yes, the mobility air force basically did um was was out of munitions and and ways to protect, but then essentially put his aircraft between the thing that was coming inbound for the mobility aircraft, knowing that he had an ejection suit and could get out.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, this is all pretend.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I guess had done some Hayaka maneuver to make sure the mobility was protected, and it was really kind of cool to see everybody lotting this guy to make sure that we could get the army to where they needed to be uh and deliver the entire effect for the sorties.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just kind of cool to see everybody come together to get the mission done.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, what you're describing is when you say the fires, you're talking about fighter aircraft.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, in this exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, the fighter interposing itself between your C-17 and the threat on the ground that could have struck it down, is that right?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, I think it was an air-to-air threat.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So this the funny thing about the C-17 is we've got flares, we've got a laser infrared countermeasures on the aircraft, but we have very little protection against radar or even air-to-air aircraft.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to have these fighters to come in and escort to get us through.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the best part is that, like, unless somebody tells us they're out there, we also don't know that they're there.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we rely so much on our combat Air Force brethren to make sure that we can be protected to get in to deliver the things that we need to.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I it's always just really cool to me when we get to do that integration with other assets and see it all come together fully.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, where do you do all that planning to put all of those pieces of the puzzle together?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Red flags are typically like a tactical level exercise, right?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: But what I think has been really cool is that as I've gone on in my career, I'm focusing more on working within the air operations center.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I've gotten to work at the NATO Air Operations Center.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then most recently I'm out in the Pacific at their air operations center.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So they do the operational planning, which we then hand off to the tactical level to go and do this execution.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been really neat to see how much goes into the background where you take strategic guidance from the general officers and then put that into the operational level planning and then give it to the tactical level SMEs to really fine-tune uh and get through all of that.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been neat the older I've gotten and the more I've progressed to see all of this come together and how much intention goes into these operations that we go out and execute.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, with all that flying that you've done all over the world, what's the worst weather you've flown through to land an airplane?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's worst weather I've flown through, and then there's a there's a whole other story for landing in one, but both times were actually me giving an evaluation.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the hardest evaluation you're gonna have in the C-17 is an overseas mission evaluation, and it's a multiple-day evaluation.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: We've all been through it, but these these poor um potential aircraft commanders have to go through, and you don't sleep for days and you're so stressed.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I was on a mission where we were in Kandahar and we were supposed to fly back through Germany, over the pole, into Japan.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we show up to the jet that day and the poor guy's been recut.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So instead, we're flying south.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna fuel stop Diego Garcia, go through the Straits of Malacca without any diplomatic clearances, and then get over to Japan.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there, he will crew rest and then come back and go to Singapore.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And anyhow, the South China Sea in the summer is always fun in and of itself with the weather that it provides.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So um he had been having a tougher time, but really showed up that day with a lot of changes.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: But we're flying across the South China Sea, and I've in my sad little sleeping bag in the back because I'm I'm an evaluator, so I consider myself self and moving luggage, so I'm not gonna take a crew bunk.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I feel this like the shaking, and it feels like not normal turbulence.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think most pilots can tell when it's like, oh, these are just normal little bumpies.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then they sent the youngest co-pilot to come and get me, and he's just whispers, he's like, CJ, we've got turbulence.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it was like the fear in his voice, or we've got weather, excuse me.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the fear in his voice that just kind of made me do this like Superman up out of the sleeping bag.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I walk onto the flight deck, I put my headset on, and I just kind of look over at the weather radar, and it's nighttime, so you can't see much out there.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I just like look, and there's just this wall of like on the weather radar, it goes green to yellow to the centermost is red, and there's 270 degrees of thunderstorms around us.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're about 120 miles off track of our magenta planned line, pointing at these thunderstorms.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, Boys, I don't want to armchair quarterback this, but how the heck did we get here?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: They just were trying to pick their way through weather, and we found ourselves pointed at the Philippines with a wall of thunderstorms.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a lot of discussion with Manila trying to, they weren't gonna let us change altitude because after manipulating weather radar and everything, we realized we if we could climb up about 4,000 feet, we could get over a lot of this stuff and we had a way through.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Manila was denying us any climbing because there was another aircraft about 100 miles away that was at the altitude we were trying to get to.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: The co-pilot was arguing with me and said, we don't have the clearance to do this.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very annoyed, reached over, spun the wheel up, and was like, We're we're going, man.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, get there.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: My name's on the orders this time.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, we talked about it afterwards, and I was like, I this I don't care about somebody sitting in Manila telling me what's the most deadly thing to me is another aircraft that's tiny and about a hundred miles away.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not flying through that thunderstorm.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then we had a discussion about uh I still remember a sim instructor years ago when I was in pilot training telling me, don't ever forget about ATCCJ.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's bacon and eggs.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Remember the chickens involved, but the pigs who's committed?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we had a real bacon and egg moment and just had to really get through some tough thunderstorms around the South China Sea.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: But um, that was a very tense, I think, 30 minutes, and I've I've never felt the jet rock the way that it did as we were trying to get through all of that.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of debriefing occurred.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: But we had a um another moment.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: We were landing at Fort Campbell.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was giving another evaluation, and the gentleman had had another tough day or a previous couple of days that were tough, and he really needed to show up that day.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Flying into Fort Campbell, some weather rolled through, and he was about a thousand feet up on the ILS, just shat and was gonna land the jet, no problem.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly the tailwinds kicked up and we were out of tailwind limits.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So he calls for the go-around, starts to fly the procedures, talking to Fort Campbell, and they're like, Yep, you know, this is the weather, it's below minimums for the precision approach.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, the winds are out of limits for that approach, but we can switch to the other runway.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy goes, Yep, weather's below minimums for the non-precision.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: We do have a precision though.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: We have a PAR if you'd like to fly that.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this poor, this poor guy is just like, Because we don't who who really flies the PARs to minimums, but he he went through, he absolutely shacked it, shot the approach.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the gentleman that gave the guidance on the PAR was wonderful and and beautifully at 200 feet, we break out on center line, no problems, land.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: It brought a tear to my eye, and we taxi in.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until he parked the jet and he like turned the jet off, looked around at the rest of the crew, was like, Well, I've never done that before.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, information that would have been useful to know about five minutes ago because I would have kicked you out of the scene.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: The first time ever flying a PAR, he shot it to minimums and shacked it.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So good on him.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, and a PAR, a precision approach, uh radar approach.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for those, I I don't think a lot of the newer pilots have flown them that much, but they were certainly when I flew in England, they were the typical type that you would fly in really bad weather.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the one they they dramatized them in movies many times where they have a controller saying, You're you're on course, you're on glide path, you know, come left, come right, you know, climb a little, descend a little.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they are talking you down to keep you on exactly the right glide path to land, to arrive at the end of the runway, hopefully as you break out of the bad weather and you see the runway and you can lay it.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, exactly.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's um it's one of those things where I always think about flying.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's when you know, when you first learn to to draw or write as a kid, you're using the giant crayons, and then you get to a point where you can write cursive with that fine mil uh millimeter lead, and you have to fly a PAR like you're writing cursive with a very fine millimeter lead.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you've got to have it shacked.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So CJ, a minute ago, you mentioned that there are a number of missions that the C17 can do.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Can you give us a sense of what are the range of different types of missions you guys do?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so we we've kind of already discussed like the joint forcible entry, which I think is like the the Hayaka combat into the spectrum when you've got uh at least a minimum three ship, you honestly it's far more than that, probably 12 to 15, and you've got all the plans for the combat uh to all the way over to the other in the spectrum, which is just normal channel resupplies.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Or oftentimes in um when the president moves, there is a lot of C-17s that will go in advance and following him.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, my what's called a dollar ride, my very first mission in a C-17.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: We had it's a really tough one.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: We had to go into Ireland and Paris because we were moving President Obama's limousine.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've also done ones where I was tough duty.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's it was really just a hard time.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Although we did have to get a waiver to be able to fly through the threat of volcanic ash, which I was like, everything I've ever heard is volcanic ash, and airplane engines don't work well, but by golly, we had to move that limo on time.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we've also moved Marine One, and I you know what I can tell you that load team for Marine One moving his helicopter is one of the most impressive teams I think I've ever seen.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: They've got that fine-tune, they use whistles.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: The load masters like basically just stand back and let these guys put this helicopter on the back of the jet.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very little clearance and it's incredibly cool.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we there was a time where I was stationed in Alaska and we flew Marine One from Kaneowe Bay after President Obama's there back to Quantico.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was a really cool mission to get to do that and had a really uh kick-ass crew.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: But we get there and they say, and I'm excited because I'm getting gonna go back to Alaska.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's I think it was salmon fishing season at that point in time, so we needed to get back.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I also had a small child, so you know, single parent ops for my husband.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: But they we walk in and they're like, Yeah, you've been recut.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, standard, of course we have.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Where are we going now?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, You're going to Guantanamo.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I can't.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's a special certification airfield for instructors because of the procedures required to get into.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually a very difficult deal to get into that you don't violate any Cuban airspace, trying to make sure you can approach inappropriately.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was like, But you know, I am an instructor pilot, but I am not certified on that.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna have to find yourself another person.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, standard um air operations center, like, we have a waiver for that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry, we'll send you there.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we crew rested and then wake up the next day.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I spent like hours of my crew rest just doing all the studying I could do.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like, Yeah, we'll email you the brief, it'll be fine.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, cool, thanks, man.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: We'll figure this out.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the next day we show up, and it's um, you know, C17 can carry 18 pallet positions um or 102 people if we don't put in centerline or um sorry at palletized seating.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I mean, it can carry a lot of stuff.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we show up and there's like a couple of pallets and like 30 people, and you just think, at the operating cost of like, you know, at the time I think it was$15,000 an hour, why are we using a C17 to do this?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not a whole lot of discussions about who we were moving, why.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we get down to Guantanamo, the sun's setting, it was really kind of cool, and we had to stay the night there, which was also confusing, and nobody ever explains to the crew the whys behind some of these things.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we could have had enough duty day to get back, but they wanted us to stay.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess there were some people and things we were moving the next day.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we get to the jet, we get everything set up, we have people on, and we take off, and it's just a gorgeous day flying over the Caribbean.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um the load master comes on headset and says, Hey, we've got some of the folks down here, they want to come up and see the cockpit.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is that okay?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, sure, absolutely.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Come to find out, it was people who had been down to Guantanamo to witness um the conditions and the trials for the folks that are being kept down there.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what was a surprise to me, and I didn't know, is that the US government has a program for people that are survivors of 9-11 or um have family members that were lost during 9-11 to be able to like put their names in to potentially go to Guantanamo and witness everything so they can understand and see for themselves what's occurring down there and what the kind of accountability is being held for some of the folks that the US government has.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it was incredibly cool to get to talk to some of these people.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have firefighters that were there and they were, it was, it was interesting because they were so excited to see us and to talk to us and check out the cockpit of the jet and ask us questions.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And all of us were just like feeling privileged and honored to be able to speak with these folks.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because this was, oh gosh, 14 years after September 11th.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is in 2015, 2016 type time frame.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it was um, it was just a really cool moment.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And at one point there was a girl who was on on the back of the or upstairs and she was 16, 17 years old, and she'd lost her mother in the first aircraft that hit the World Trade Center.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so she was down there with her dad and was just so excited to be talking about the airplane.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And all I could think about was my less than two-year-old at home that I just kind of wanted to get home and hug because I couldn't possibly think about what that that girl, that little, that young lady had missed out on.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: But she was so neat in sharing her stories of what she had learned and seen down there.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you just never know what's gonna what's gonna occur.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like a real jerk being like, oh, got recut.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so mad about this.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it was one of the coolest things to see, and something that I guess is not just widely known that the the US government has done that to make sure that these families can have that type of closure, which is so cool.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So CJ, tell me about combat airdrops in the C-70.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was really an amazing thing to be able to do in Afghanistan and planning some for Syria.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: They were mostly single ship.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in 2012, we got to do so many with the squadron when we were out there because we were trying to keep convoys off the road.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're doing these combat airdrops, you're saving lives by preventing like the ground folks having to uh caravan through and worry about Iedes and and really just the threat from the enemy.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we would be what's a lot of uh called CDS bundles, so containerized uh delivery system, and they have these low-cost, high-velocity parachutes that go around them, just think like giant trash bags, and you'd have 40 or so coming out the back of the jet, um, depending on the size of the drop zone.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it was fuel, sometimes food, and just getting to resupply a lot of these fobs that afford operating bases that are out there in the middle of nowhere.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the really cool thing is you've got this mission planning cell that's back there, and it's just this group of folks that are um unfortunately pulled off the flying line because they're planning experts, um, usually led by either a lead airdropper or a weapons officer planning all the airdrops that are coming through and making sure we can deliver things and do it safely.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So they've run all the numbers for you.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: You go in, you're gonna get briefed up really quickly on all the things that you're about to go out and do.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: You've got your tactics binder and um you go out there, but there's times where you're like really trusting your buddy and the numbers they crunch because you're you're low, you're slow, you're trying to make sure you can get across the drop zone and you're pointed directly at a giant mountain and you're like, man, I really hope Bob rammed these numbers correctly because when I make my escape, I need to have the climb out rate to clear that big old sucker in front of me.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be really compressed in timeline as well.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So some of these outs um airdrops in Afghanistan were high altitude.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd have to get down below 10,000 feet, or otherwise you're airdropping on oxygen.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you're um depressurized so you can get everything open and ready to go.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so it can be a very stressful like five to 10 minutes um getting through there, seeing if you even have time for a reattack.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there is one more second drop that you've reattacked on because the drop zone's not big enough to get everything out at once.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely high stress timelines, radios are really difficult.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so with the mountains out there.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the army's having a hard time making sure they're clearing for the wind.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a great story I'm flying with an instructor, and he um they keep calling the winds slightly out of limits.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like 270 at you know, 14 knots or whatever, and we needed 13 or less.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're coming in.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: We have to do, we have one re-attack option to go around, come back.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the the guy calls again, he's like, Oh yeah, winds are 270 at 15 knots.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the instructor just kind of gets really frustrated and comes on the radio and is like, Do you want your stuff or not?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't say stuff, he said a different word, and there's you hear this long pause on the radio, and then the army goes, Windsor 270, 12 knots.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: It clicked for them and figured it out.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: So he's coming through.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: They got all their things and everything was intact.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it was just a really funny and great comical story.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: But there's all this prep that you do, and uh going in when you're when you're essentially fencing in for your sorty um into the combat environment, you've got a combat entry checklist that you do.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and step one is there's a step one alpha that the crew culture has just automatically added because there's this energy drink called a rippet, uh, which has been labeled the energy drink of war for the uh US military.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they used to have these mini cans that were just everywhere that you could get.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the crew as a whole would shotgun a rippet um on their way into combat uh and have to spike them on the ground of the cockpit.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then if you were doing a combat airdrop that day, if you could have a uh victory rippet on your way out, and then you would take a twistler and turn it into a straw and just sip your rippet through a twizzly straw like a gentleman as you exited the combat environment and just sat back on your laurels for having done a good job that day.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, but it was always the compressed timeline and really funny you.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Get back to base, and you the whole crew would go and get a beer and they'd look at each other across the table and be like, We didn't do anything to Q3, right?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: We're good.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: We've but they got all their stuff.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're fine, everything's fine.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a really cool environment, and I think that's something that really breeds that closeness amongst crews.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So in your description there, it occurred to me I've never thought about depressurizing a plane intentionally.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because all of the planes I've been in, you know, if there was a depressurization, that's bad.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so in order to open up the ramp and and let uh things out, you've either got to be down below 10,000 you said, or if you're up at higher altitude, I assume you have to be on oxygen in the cockpit and uh loadmaster as well.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you do.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: You and depending on the altitude, you have to do a certain amount of pre-breathing.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: There was a really great sortie where I was flying with a guy up in Alaska and I was getting ready to move back to Charleston, but he'd never done a high altitude airdrop and we didn't have anybody on to any um personnel to drop that day.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: But we just went out to one of the MOAs and we had planned it where we were gonna practice a high altitude airdrop.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the challenge is the airspeed you have to be at to open the doors, right?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's 250 knots and or less based on the limitations on the doors.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you're high altitude, you're slow.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he had planned the whole drop.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: We were getting him ready for um for lead upgrade, and he had planned a turning escape.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, we're just gonna see how this goes, right?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh we we we're just level, we're right on that margin.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then as we're trying to exit, he's trying to power up, but also turn at the same time and close up the doors.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, So how's this working out, man?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is standard instructor question.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes you see some of those things going, and you know, as long as it's not going to be unsafe, you just let it happen so they can like learn and you have those significant emotional events to learn from.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I guarantee you he probably does not plan turning escapes at those airspeeds anymore.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: So now, can you tell us if it's not classified, how how high can you drop or or what's a typical high altitude drop?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, high altitude is considered like 18,000 feet or or higher.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I mean, we do have high altitude containerized system that we could do, but typically if you're gonna drop that high, it's personnel.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: There, there's different reasons you would drop that high, right?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's um really high mountains or if you're trying to avoid systems.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of what we did in Afghanistan, though, I mean, there's a huge advantage to dropping low, right?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's mostly the spread of equipment.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: The army is incredible with how much planning they've done with this and where they know, like in the lineup of where you're you where you are as an aircraft, the load you're carrying is because the army knows what the scatter plan is going to look like.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then they know which personnel are going to be on which aircraft.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll have the equipment go first, and then the personnel, and the army knows which people will be closest to the equipment, you know, as they drop.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they're trying to make sure the driver of that Humvee lands near his Humvee so he can get over there and help you rigget and go.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all done so intentionally and so smartly.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say, like that that work with the army that I've gotten to do is always some of my favorite things.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Cause you're, I mean, especially when you before you do a parachute um drum, you have to go before you take off and you do a safety brief with everybody and that the safety is at the back of the jet.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just always really funny.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And as I'm like, you know, trying to push through all these army dudes, like loaded up with their parachute saying, excuse me, excuse me, coming through.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: I got to come brief you guys and having those discussions with them.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's just this, you've never met this person before, but here you are having a quick, succinct brief with them to get everybody on the same page, and you just create this team for a couple of hours, and then they jump, they like like crazy people, jump out of the back of your airplane, and you may never see them again.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, but I mean, you obviously get the reports making sure that everybody landed okay.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's that's probably one of the more nerve-wracking things, too, is that I have two cousins.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: My grandfather did 33 years in the Army Special Forces.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: I have two cousins, one that was special forces, the other one that was 82nd Airborne.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I really wanted to fly airdrop in C17s because I wanted to be the person that was driving the bus that got them out to make sure that they could get there.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And there is like this anxiety that you have after you get people out of the back of the jet, just hoping that they all make it there okay, that the shoots were fine, that there were no injuries.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And as somebody who has been the on-call tactician to come and investigate airdrop incidents, the first question everybody always has is, is everybody okay?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like what happened?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like we'll figure out and de um digest and go through and figure out like where something, you know, was it an army equipment issue?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Was it us in the wrong space and time?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: But just making sure everybody's all right is is the most important thing.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when I think about people jumping out of airplanes, the images I've seen in movies and that sort of thing are always out the side of the airplane.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: But your jumpers are actually going out the back down the ramp, is that right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: So in C-130s, yes, for both static line and free fall.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: In C-17s for free fall, they go out the back on the ramp.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: For static line, we keep the door closed and we have paratroop doors on the left and right of the aircraft, and it's all static line.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So they have this, they clip onto the line and they don't even have to worry about releasing their parachute.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, as they go out, it pulls the line for them.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a really cool and effective system.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there's also winches on the jets.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it heaven forbid, if there's ever a toad parachutist and they're stuck for some reason, there's a way to clip a winch onto them and pull them back into the jet, which there was a time I was the on-call tactician in Alaska.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a large red flag, Alaska, that was occurring.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: A big way they were doing another joint joint forcible entry, and we were using um foreign partner C-130s as well.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a toad parachutist stuck out of the back of one of those, and the winch broke.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this poor um parachutist stuck for over, like I think it was over 10 minutes out the backside of the jet.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the the army safeties that were on board managed to pull him in by hand, and it was an incredibly cool story.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I got the phone call and I'm standing in Anchorage, and they're like, Yep, we've got this going on.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking to the army dude, and I'm like, Okay, well, what happened?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Did you guys recover him?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is he okay?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy, the army dude on the phone goes, No, ma'am, you don't understand.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: He's still stuck behind the jet.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm standing in my house and Anchorage going, like, I don't know what to do with my hands.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: I can absolutely I can do absolutely nothing as this is ongoing.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the the teams work together, the coalition partners were amazing and they they managed to get everything.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: But even when you have that contingency plan, sometimes you have to move to the tertiary.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the fact that they were able to get this guy back in and he was fine and standard army, the army had him back out in the field the next day.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I was like, I hope he gets a medal for this or something.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, CJ, if you could re-fly any sorta you've ever flown, uh because it was just so perfect you wanted to enjoy it again, or because there was something you wanted to change, what would it be and why?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: I got to fly, and it's so funny because there's so many great.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've gotten to go to like Morocco with the jet or in Kiev um after the Crimea.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, but for me, there was a per, you know, there's the the that perfect weather day, and then everything goes right on the jet.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: So got to fly an airdrop sortie to ship, but my husband was instruct instructing Razi at the Citadel.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we had worked it to where the Citadel cadets could come and fly along.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we set it all up to where we were simulating combat sortie as well.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we had them sitting in on the briefs and trying to replicate everything so these cadets could understand what it would be like.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was a really great day, but we also had enough pilots on board that I didn't have to be the one flying when we had doors open.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we went, did the airdrops, um, dropped some heavy equipment, and then we had a low-level planned off the coast of the Carolinas at 300 feet, and we were gonna fly it with the doors open.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And every single time I had been on the jet with well, um, with the doors open, I was always the one in the seat flying.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this was the time that I could actually go and sit on the ramp in the back of the jet with the doors open and kick my feet off the back of the jet while we're flying along the coast of South Carolina.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the best part is that my husband was on board, so he got to watch me do airy fueling, airdrop.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've got some really great pictures, but he also had to sit against the sidewall seats and it bothered him to no end that he couldn't sit on the back of the jet as somebody who's jumped out of the jet before as well.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was just that, you know, sometimes there's just that perfect weather day and everything goes right.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I finally got to sit on the back of the jet with the doors open and just I'm from the Carolinas, so look at my Carolina coastline, and it was just gorgeous.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I would do that again in a heartbeat.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now you are attached to the airplane in some way.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: You have a like a rope or something, so you don't accidentally trip and fall out the back, I assume.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: My mother would kill me.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, we've got um, so before you plan, you put a harness on and then you've got it attached lanyarded to the floor.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And before you even open the doors or all that, you've already walked to the back of the jet to make sure that the line is not too long for you to fall out of the back of the jet either.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um so when we do airdrops, though, our our loadmasters either wear parachutes or they wear the harness to make sure that they're they can't accidentally end up out of the jet, or if they do, they have a parachute on.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but it was really cool day.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, CJ, I want to take just a moment to thank you for being one of the people who read and gave me feedback on the manuscript for my novel, Have the Blue Sky, which will be coming out about two weeks from now on Veterans Day.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to say thanks.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been quite a journey, six years in the making.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel so privileged that I even got to see some of those early copies of it.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: One, I don't I don't know if I was even qualified to be able to provide feedback on that, but I'm grateful that you let me.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I uh I'm just so impressed by it.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think as an aviator, the way that you made the aircraft essentially a care a linking character throughout the book is just something that made my heart sing because I think um so many of us have that connection and the feeling that when you fly somebody or find somebody else that's flown the same airframe as you and you have those discussions about it and the things that you experience and what they experience, there's it's just something that is this underpinning string that connects so many of us.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interestingly, because the novel covers a span of about 25 years, the only linking character could really be the airplane itself because of you know, the way we move through different assignments in the Air Force, you might be very intensely involved with a group of people flying a particular set of missions for three or four years, maybe, but then you move on to another assignment, another assignment.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the people are constantly moving in and out of the scene.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that was one of the big challenges in writing it to make sure there was continuity.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it's been wonderful, it was wonderful to watch your characters grow with the aircraft as well, right?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because the aircraft had it went from its testing phase to them, its actual employment and then the different operations that you line out with use.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: But then you've you've also got your young characters that start from lieutenant and work their way to colonel and then uh start and grow their own families.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I find it so it's it's as somebody who has a family that we flow we've flung within the family.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just really cool um to kind of see that reflected in the storyline and also the fact that you provide the different perspectives, right?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: From from people with different backgrounds.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I've I really loved that because they also see the aircraft and the experience through different lenses.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hopefully Samantha and Marlo are going to be following in your footsteps one of these days.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll see.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Marlo uh for sure.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Samantha, I think, has still got her eye on being president, so we'll see.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of which, where are you joining us from today?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: We are um, we have taken ourselves on a Disney cruise uh to get some time away.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you that if I can't fly, then I definitely would prefer a cruise ship just because one, my cell phone usually doesn't work while I'm out here, so it's a great way to disconnect from work.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if you hear some fun lounge music in the background, it's because I'm in the Cadillac Lounge, which I think is most suiting for aviators anyway, because they have a wonderful stock of bourbon here.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: What is that off over your left shoulder right there?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, uh so I've got a portal.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: We are pulling up to Ensenada, Mexico here shortly.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I get to get see the uh the sea go by for sure.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, can you give us a quick uh view of the ocean there?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: How how sweet is that?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not too bad.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, CJ, one last question for you today.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about one of the most memorable things that you've ever done in a C-17.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, there's so many wonderful ones.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think I think all aviators can appreciate like when you first get into an aircraft, there's certain things that are just incredibly hard to do, right?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then the more you do them, you're gonna keep challenging yourself until you get really good.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because so many of us are type A and we're like, there's no way I'm gonna be allowed to suck at this.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna work on this until I can be awesome at it.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of folks, it's it's air refueling in the C-17.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's it's gotten easier because they've done something new with throttle augmentation.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: But when you think about the size of this airplane, it's 170 feet across, 169, you know, nose to tail, and um can be up to 585,000 pounds.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a big airplane and it's bigger often than the tankers that you're flying with.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we go up and we push the poor KC-135 around.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: We often knock off its autopilot because we've just got these big air bubbles coming together.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then because it's fly by wire, it's so sensitive to the point where they actually had to create an air-refueling mode.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because when it first came off the line, it didn't have this air refueling mode.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the jet was so sensitive that you would just go up and push the other aircraft around.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they basically dumbed down the flight controls so you don't move too much when you're trying to do um the rendezvous with the tanker.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: So hang on a second.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'd never heard about this.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there are you've got and I know what it's like to have a little airplane we're fueling with a big tanker, but when you've got two big airplanes, tell us a little bit more.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: You you said you big air bubbles, tell us a little bit more about what's going on in flight when you're refueling a big airplane at altitude.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's, I mean, you're just moving a lot of air, right?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's there's there's that effect of when you're trying to come together, but then you also have a lot of momentum.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not exactly like, especially the higher altitudes, you can't stop on a dime.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you do have this like you would put in power and you would count to three to let it take just to see what you would get.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then you could either wiggle some more in or you take a little bit out.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but trying to fine-tune those throttles for that to match the tanker's airspeed is just such a challenging thing.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then some people with because the C-17 is a stick, it's not a yoke.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you would like try and hold the stick like this so you're not like over-controlling.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: You'd have your hands on top and just touch it with your fingertips.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's kind of those finite cursive movements all over again.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you're not trying to over-control the aircraft.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotten easier, but it used to be a super challenging thing to do.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they've even dumbed down the flight controls a little bit so you're not over-controlling it.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you've really got to make sure that you fine-tune the throttles and you match that airspeed and everything is on point.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I struggled with it when I first learned, and you don't learn how to air refuel until you go to aircraft commander school for your upgrade.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: You do that, you do assault landing, which is landing your C17 into a 500 by 90 foot box, um, making sure that you touch down exactly where you're supposed to be touching down and dissipating that energy appropriately so you can make that 3,500-foot landing zone.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for me, air refueling was always a bit more challenging just for some reason.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I worked really hard at it and I started to get, I got pretty good at it.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then you get to Alaska, and Alaska has these wonderful things that everybody wants to go up and see in the wintertime, which is the northern lights.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're they're amazing on night vision goggles.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was like probably one of the cooler things when I first started flying up there.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I keep talking about Alaska, but if you haven't flown in Alaska, hands down, one of my favorite places to fly, because you've got the beautiful terrain and then um really challenging conditions, especially in the wintertime.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: But going and trying to refuel with a tanker with northern lights is the ultimate experience because um they talk about spatial disorientation, but you've got these lights coming down your windscreen on this on one side of the aircraft, and then you're trying to rejoin, and you'll suddenly feel like you're in like a 30-degree turn, just the way they're moving and the way they come across the windscreen.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think people will talk about trying to do night refueling over the Black Sea with no moon illumination, and that's incredibly hard because you've just got this black hole effect.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I think refueling with the northern lights is also in and of itself just this incredibly beautiful or challenging thing.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I I never get disappointed that um just when I think I'm pretty badass at something, um, the jet will find a new way to make sure that it reminds me and keeps me humble that sometimes you just some days are not you're gonna be your best days.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, we got the gas.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that was a a really interesting and fun time to uh to try and do that with the northern lights, just having a party outside.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: So wow.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it hadn't occurred to me uh that the northern lights would show up on NVGs, but of course they would.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: So what is it what does it look like on night vision goggles to see the northern lights?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: How's that different from like just looking at it with the naked eye?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's just I don't know, it's it's like an amplifier, right?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where you you can see a little bit with the naked eye, but then when you put the night vision goggles on, it just lights up.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got some, I'll have to show you, David, I've got some really good photos that I took through the MVGs of the northern lights.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's just really cool.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really funny because uh we live down in Anchorage.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: My husband was always complaining because there was so much ground lighting that he didn't get to see them very much.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll come back from a night sortie and we'll be talking about things and I'll be like, Oh god, the northern lights made tonight so difficult.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Those darn northern lights I could barely see.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they were washing out my knogs, and um but it was yeah, it was definitely quite the experience, especially the further north you go, right?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: That the um the more that they would just be having their own party.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: So very, very neat flying experience up in Alaska, but and worth it, right?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: In the wintertime, you get those northern lights, you'd get some um some really beautiful effects, but you had to work for it because you'd show up to the jet.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's negative 20.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: The poor maintenance has got like heaters against each engine.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like your airplane's on life support, and then you've got the DICE truck running around trying to get all the stuff off the jet just so you can go fly that day.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: But we would go do cool things like um the 425 Brigades up who is who up is is then up in Alaska, and they do a lot of Arctic practice.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we would go airdrop them, you know, north of the Arctic Circle, and they'd go do their exercises out there and they'd say, Hey, will you make sure you don't put the heat on in the jet?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, dude, I'm freezing.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're up there trying to wear like three pairs of gloves to keep your fingers warm, but you can't turn the heat on because they're wearing gear rated for like negative 40 degrees.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't want to make them sit in there sweat and then jump out of the airplane and freezing.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it was always just a really cool integration with them and get to do some some very unique things in that Alaska flying.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you one more question.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: How important is being a pilot to your sense of identity?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting one because I think what's the joke?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like pilots crossfit and vegans, don't worry, you don't have to ask them, we'll tell you.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the longer I've gone on, and I remember a mentor of mine, Carrie Fleming, telling me, because I was applying for the White House fellowship, and she was looking at my application, giving me feedback, and she said, CJ, you've got to remember you're not a pilot anymore.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're an officer, you're all these other things.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can't use that as a single identifying thing.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: But if if I were to be honest and to reflect upon it, I don't know if that's the first thing I would always identify or introduce myself with, but my God, that's probably a foundational thing of how I handle myself, who I am, how I um approach problem sets.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much training and so many experiences that come with it.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a defining piece of who you are, even if it's not the leading descriptor of what you say about yourself.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you can always find another pilot because you know with how they approach things or something weird happens, they take that deep breath, they get centered, they look around to see if there's a checklist.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: If not, they're gonna just gonna wing it and they'll figure it out and they rely on their skills that they have.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's truly a defining characteristic, but maybe not the descriptor I would lead with.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's a damn fine answer.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: CJ, I just gotta say thanks so much for being on the podcast today.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, David, thanks for having me.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to get to see the final copy of the book.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you showed me the cover art and everything.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: I won.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: You have promised that I would get a signed copy from the author, so I'm hoping that can occur at some point.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I will be the first in line for the queue to make sure I can gift it to everybody who has Christmas gifts.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: My mom's been waiting and asking if she can read it, and I told her she has to wait for the actual release.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's I I don't know if I've read a novel that has resonated so strongly with what it feels like to be an aviator.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't wait to have an actual hard copy that I can have and add it to my library.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: You've been listening to the Flyboy Podcast.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is brought to you by our parent organization, the Flyboy Lab.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: The mission of the Flyboy Lab is to elevate awareness and appreciation of aviators, their service, sacrifices, and contributions, and hopefully we've fulfilled that mission today.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: New episodes of the podcast drop every Thursday morning, and you can find previous episodes on our website, theflyboypodcast.com.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Until our next sorting, push the mock, use the vertical, and fly safe.