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The WD-40 Story. How to Put People at the Heart of an Enterprise · Humanity Working

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we found successful is that we were able to show people why having a culture that um, you know, we we often said, imagine a place where you go to work every day, you make a contribution to something bigger than yourself, you learn something new, you're protected and set free by a compelling set of values, and you go home happy.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: I am thrilled to be joined today by a leader that I've been uh stalking for a while online, Gary Ridge.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you might know Gary from the book he co-authored with Ken Blanchard, helping people when at work.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: But you'll most certainly have a connection to Gary if you have a can of something specific in your house, this stuff.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh for those of you listening on audio, I was holding up a can at WD40.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Gary is the chairman, emeritus, and former CEO of the WD-40 company.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: And as we're going to discuss today, Gary's main focus as a leader was really to truly live and deploy a form of servant leadership throughout WD-40, which actually led to some pretty spectacular results for his company.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Gary's been named as one of the 10 most admired CEOs in the world by Inc.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: magazine.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, he's on Leadership Hum's power list for the biggest voices in leadership, and um, he's also one of Global Guru's top 30 for organizational culture.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: And today, Gary's also the founder of the Learning Moment, and he's got a new book coming out soon, uh, I think early part of next year, called Any Dumb Ass Can Do It.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great title.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the podcast, Gary.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: G'day, Paul.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a delight to be with you.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for inviting me.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're most welcome.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're very excited.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: All right, I've got so many things that I want to get into.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get started right away.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: I want to start with the subtitle of the book you wrote with Ken Blanchard.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the subtitle is a business philosophy called Don't Mark My Paper, Help Me Get an A.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, can you explain what that means and how you came across and adapted this philosophy when you're at WD 40?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, way back um back in the year 2000, just after I became CEO of WD-40 Company, I went back to school.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I met Ken.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I did a master's degree in leadership where I learned a lot about servant leadership.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And Ken was telling a story about when he used to be a professor at a university, and he would get in a lot of trouble from the academia and the administration because he would hand out the final paper at the beginning of the program.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they'd say, What the hell are you doing, Blanchard, giving them the final paper?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Well, what I'm going to do for the next X number of semesters is help them learn the answers.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of went, Oh duh.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the things that we don't do very well in organizations is have clarity around what we expect from each other.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then as a leader, taking the position of a coach whose job it is to help that person get that aid.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it was really about not that annual performance review where you rush to the form, fill it out, and you talk about something in the last X number of days.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: But if we are truly there to help our people, uh we need to have ongoing conversations around clearly defined A's and help them get to that A.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how uh how it was born.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's funny how you you mentioned that you kind of had this will duh moment because when I was reading this book, um, I had much the same realization myself.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there were parts of this where I was originally ripped thinking, well, hang on, why don't why why don't we all do this?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's very it's very odd.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because the goal of an organization, presumably, is to get the best out of its people, or at least that's part of its goal, whether it's explicitly stated or not, right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And do you get the best out of your people, for example, by um stating, putting together a bunch of goals, tucking them away in a drawer where neither the employee or the manager is looking at them for an entire year and then scrambling to figure out whether those goals were met or not?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm guessing probably not, right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, our job is to help people get there, which is really important.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, if you think about what is the real role of a leader in an organization, their role is not to be a manager.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you look up the definition of manager in the in the dictionary, it says to manipulate.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, our job is to be a coach.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about the attributes of a great coach, well, firstly, a coach, a great coach absolutely knows what it takes to win the game.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: They know the game.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Number two is a great coach never runs onto the playing field and kicks the ball.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: A great coach spends a lot of time on the sideline observing the play and then helping the player improve their game to play their best game.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, a great coach spends a lot of time in the stinky locker room because that's where you build trust and psychological safety.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, the bottom line is if if we are helping those we have the privilege to lead play their best game on a consistent basis, the team will win.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I know Gary, um part of the reason why this philosophy made so much sense to you is because it kind of connects with your view of leadership overall.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and I understand from the book that that's something that dates all the way back to your childhood, right?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think that you know leadership is really about learning what you can from those who are kind enough and generous enough to help you lead, to help you learn.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I I used to jokingly introduce myself, Paul, when I was full-time.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say, G'day, I'm Gary Ridge.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the consciously incompetent, probably wrong and roughly right chairman and CEO of WD 40 company, and I need all the help I can get.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: And really that's what it's about.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um, I was given the opportunity way back when I was a young lad living in Australia, working for a at a sports store and at dry cleaners and a hardware store, where people actually took their time to help me learn.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I thought that was so important.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, Gary, help me understand how that translates to you becoming the CEO of a company where you don't even live in a in a country where the headquarters is located.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I started working for WD40 in 1987 down in Australia.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and at that time the brand was truly a US brand, but there was a lot of opportunities around the world, and it had sprinkles of business around the world.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the CEO at that time, you know, was looking for someone who would help them do that.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh uh I was reasonably successful in the Asia Pacific region.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And one day I had a phone call with the CEO, and he's basically said, Hey, uh, well, I said to him, is there anything else I can do?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can do some more work.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Funny you should ask, do you want to move to the US?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, To do what?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Come over here and help me take the blue and yellow cam with a little red top to the world.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we packed up our toys and we moved to San Diego.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I spent a lot of time then in Europe and then Latin America, and eventually, about three years later, uh, he retired.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and for some silly reason, the board of a U.S.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: public company thought that this Aussie bloke might be okay.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was given the opportunity.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a story behind that too, Paul.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I saw that we had to build a culture because micromanagement wasn't scalable.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're going to take this brand to the world, how do we set up a culture where people are empowered, they know they belong, they know they matter, and they're able to make choices without quacking up the hierarchy.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I didn't know how to do it.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um I was on an airplane flying down to Sydney and I was reading some stuff as you do when you're on an airplane, and I read two things.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: The first one was something from the Delai Lama.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Our purpose in life is to make people happy.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: If we can't make them happy, at least don't hurt them.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, that makes sense.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I read something from Aristotle, and Aristotle said, pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, that makes sense.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that was running around in my head.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And when I got back to San Diego, I read an article in the local paper about this master's degree in leadership at the University of San Diego, and I went to an information um session, and there Ken Blanchard was speaking.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And Ken said, the problem with most MBA programs is they get people in the head only.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to start getting people in the heart.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, That's it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So here I was, already CEO of a public company.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: I went back to school.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: I went and did a master's degree in leadership, and I learned from the you know, from the best in the world, uh, and started to implement those principles of servant leadership uh and you know, into into the organization.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you've had this personal realization.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um you're learning a lot, obviously.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you've still got a fairly interesting challenge at WD 40, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: So this is a company that's doing pretty well already, um, but um is also got a history of being pretty conservative, and you've decided that driving a culture based on servant leadership and situational leadership is the key.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um I would imagine you ran into some folks that were thinking this was pretty new age stuff.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how how how do you manage to overcome skepticism inside the organization that you yeah, you're right.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sure in the back room a few times they said, hey, Ridge is drinking too much of Ken Blanchard's Kool-Aid, you know, all this fluffy stuff.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: But truly, you know, if you are if you were to be able to share with those in the organization that what we're really wanting to do is empower them and to, you know, really make it clear to them that they matter and they belong, and give them a framework to make choices, then they're gonna be better learners.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And interestingly enough, I I had a friend of mine, a guy by the name of Charlie Malouf, he runs Broad River Retail, and he said he had a wonderful quote not long ago.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: He said, You cannot microwave culture.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a crock pot approach.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And this was so true.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to know the ingredients to go into the crock pot.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have to take care of those ingredients, and you have to be brave enough to um treat the toxins when they enter the petri dish.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you also have to make sure that you reward and applaud the great behavior that's building the strength of the culture in that petri dish.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, it was it's simple, it's not easy, and time is not your friend.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people think culture is about popcorn, pizza, and margarita parties.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that at all.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's about you know creating this environment where truly people are appreciated around a very clear purpose, uh, and that we had a very clear purpose.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I want to draw attention to something you mentioned there, just in case folks missed it.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: You said it's simple, but it's not easy.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes folks, you know, folks conflate uh conflate those two things, but something can be simple, at least in theory, but difficult to uh to implement in practice, and it takes a lot of focus and it takes a lot of uh takes a lot of attention.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now, uh that actually gets me back to an aspect of leadership, and we're gonna get into uh into specific elements of leadership here in a moment.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: But um in general, when we've spoken to folks about leadership on uh on this podcast, I'd say there's kind of like two schools of thought.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: So one is that it is all about and only about the senior leadership inside the company.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, if the if you fix culture at the most senior parts of the uh of the organization, then because everybody is looking to leadership, um it automatically kind of like trickles down um the organization.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: And the second school of thought is what I like to call the middle management is where leadership is where culture goes to die.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of that idea whereby you get pockets of senior leaders that are um that are interested in driving change, that are interested in having a new culture inside the organization.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: But then middle management is the layer where things actually get done.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have too much in that area and you're unable to change that area, then nothing ends up happening.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious, where do you where do you fit in that uh uh on that spectrum, as it were?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't fit in either of them.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think culture is owned by everybody.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things that we found successful is that we were able to show people why having a culture that um, you know, we we often said, imagine a place where you go to work every day, you make a contribution to something bigger than yourself, you learn something new, you're protected and set free by a compelling set of values, and you go home happy.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Happy people create happy families, happy families create happy communities, happy communities create a happy world.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's very clear that you know, if you go back to the statements I uh Aristotle's statement of you know, pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: So this is all-encompassing right through the organization.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, though, in a lot of leaders, the video doesn't match the script because they they say a lot, but they don't act in the way to reflect what they say they stand for.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly when you get into hard times and you know, you get into situations where if you're a public company, you you start to get beat up a little bit by Wall Street.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they where do they go first?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's they go to the people.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, where you know the people are the the really the people in the organization are the ones that are going to really make the difference because without the people we're nothing.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, you're gonna have the best strategy in the world, Paul.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's write a strategic plan.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Let's take it over to some smart professor and say, mark this up.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, Congratulations, Paul, you've got a great strategic plan.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: There'll give you 60 out of 100.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Most of 50-50, you get 60.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if you take that strategic plan and only 20% of your people get up every day and are enthusiastic about executing against it because they know they matter, feel like they belong, and they can make choices and they're protected by a great set of values, 20 times 60 is 1200.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: But 80% of your people get up every day, 80 times 60 is 4,800.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Duh.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a key part of that, obviously a key part of that, um, is servant leadership.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so in the book, um, you talk about something called that you define as servant leadership with an edge.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: So talk to talk to us about what that means to you.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: It means you have a harder gold and a backbone of steel.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if you think about leadership, it's a balance between being tough-minded and tender-hearted.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And most leaders, and and the the sweet spot of that is in the middle.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Are you have you do you have a balance between being tough-minded and tender-hearted?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a leader that's too far to the tough-minded side or too far to the tender-hearted side, you don't create psychological safety in the business.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have a hierarchy and command and control or whatever.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a matter of getting into that sweet spot.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, again, around when we talk about the book, unfortunately, you in a lot of circumstances, people protect their own comfort zone at the expense of other people's development.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what do I mean by that?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if you're very clear about what we expect from each other, and we talk about in the book, what does an A look like?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're demonstrating behavior that as your coach, I am working with you to help you get that A, then having those redirection conversations don't become those horrible sessions where people think they're being reprimanded.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, hey, you know, we're not going in the direction we should go in.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, if those there's not clarity around what we expect from each other, when someone goes to redirect someone, it's really, really tough.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So they protect their own comfort zone because they don't want to get into the conversation because they have not been clear about what we're going to expect from each other, and therefore they don't do it, and nobody benefits.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that is really at the heart of one of the duh moments for me, which is um, as you're pointing out, um as soon as you kind of reframe this as a partnership between um the manager and the employee, let's say, for example, um and whereby both parties are motivated and excited to in quotes get the employee and a um and both parties are measured on that as well, then all of a sudden all of the fishes are swimming in the same direction, to borrow a metaphor that is everused.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: But it's a it's really interesting to think about, you know, as somebody who's you know, coached in corporate America and lived in corporate America for a long period of time.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: I can I can count on probably two fingers of situations where I've truly seen partnerships between managers and employees and different leaders inside organizations.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess one of the one of the follow-up questions I'd have for you is why do you think that something is that is so obvious is also pretty rare?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's the thing that I scratch my bald head about all the time.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, maybe it's ego, you know, maybe the the leaders' ego gets in the way.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, again, you know, some people would say, well, what's the ROI on us really, you know, focusing on our people?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, it is such an old dar thing.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if you you know, you can sit down with someone, I can say, Paul, you mean a lot to me.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm gonna spend half an hour, an hour with you, and we're all we're gonna talk about is how I can help you.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's interesting, you know, we've done employee opinion surveys at WD 40 for many years.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And one that's really interesting is 97% of the people in the company say they respect their coach.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now, remember, their coach is their boss.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Most people leave companies because they hate their boss.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when you ask them why do they respect their boss, the answer you clearly get is because they want me to win.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they're helping me win all the time.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: They want me to improve, they're helping me learn.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I often used to say to my leadership group, be under no misunderstanding, the only reason we're all gathered here together is to help those we have the privilege to lead step into their best version of their personal self.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's the only reason we're here.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can do that, and they all play their best game, the team's gonna win.
• 20:14
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• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Particularly in a lot of tech companies, right, there is this classic thing whereby the most able individual contributor is the one that becomes the manager.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then unfairly unsurprisingly, the thing that they're really good at is being an individual.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Contributor and often they struggle when it comes when they come into management.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm really curious as to whether when you were evaluating people that would be promoted into a management position, how how were you evaluating them?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then when they were in a management position, particularly a first-time manager, how were you helping them to make sure that they could do their job effectively?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the reality was we never promoted anybody into a leadership role without giving them leadership training.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because that was so important.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and and you know, we had a and that came to leave the leadership uh training contest.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: We we had a thing called Leadership Academy, and it was open to everybody in the company, it doesn't matter where you worked at what level.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we would do a 12-month course around the principles of leadership, and we talk about things like situational leadership, conflict resolution, you know, that was I basically took the core elements of the master's program that I did, and we put it into teachable units that we could teach within the organization.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the other thing that was really important is I thought that master's program was so powerful that over my period of time at WD 40, I sent, I think, 35 people to get master's degrees in leadership at the University of San Diego.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the conditions was, and we this was a fully, totally fully funded program.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: One of the conditions was they had to agree to be faculty of leadership when they came back from the program.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So now we had we were creating our own internal faculty who were all teaching from the same hymn book, if you will.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, this took time to develop over time.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: But we were very focused on, and still the company is very focused on leadership training and leadership education.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we used to we had coaching, we had coaches, coaching coaches.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: We we we were teaching people how to be great coaches based on the principles of you don't run on the field, you step on the sideline, you don't take the prize, and you spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I think we did, Paul, which was which in on reflection now, I think was more powerful than I thought at the time, we made it really easy for people to understand.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it we didn't, we didn't come, we didn't camouflage leadership training with confusion to make out how smart we are.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: We had permission statements in the company that gave permission.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we had a hierarchical set of values that were clearly described, that helped people make choices uh anytime they could.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that we did, which was so important, is we removed fear as much as we could.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we took the word failure out and we said, we don't make mistakes, we have learning moments.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And a learning moment was a positive or negative outcome of any situation that needs to be openly and freely shared to benefit all people.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we made it simple for people to understand.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: We created something called the Maniac Pledge, you may have seen that, which was a permission statement.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was again giving people permission to be what we wanted them to be and supporting them with those sorts of um tools.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was very interesting to me that in amongst all this, because you've used some terms already which are which are very interesting, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Learning moments and set of mistakes, right?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: You talk about um WT40 itself having the attributes of a tr of a tribe as well.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there was clearly kind of a conscious effort to choose language that had meaning inside the company.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that was part of the work you did with culture right up front, right?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we we wanted to make it easy for people to understand and simple for them to be able to talk about it and act within it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, as you know, in in our in the process of um don't mark my paper, help me get an A, you know, the values were so important.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we only had two measurements of values, you either lived them or you visited them.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we used to have people on a 90-day basis every 90 days share with us how they'd lived our values in the last 90 days.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: So now it became sort of normal behavior as it embedded in the behavior in the organization.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked about it all the time.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and if you're gonna build a great culture, the number one thing is you have to have a people-first mindset.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: You want coaches, not managers.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have brave accountability and behavior, you have to have a clearly defined authentic purpose, a hierarchical set of values, transparency and a simple vision, learning moments that reduce fear, and those that whole thing sets on four pillars of care.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: You care about your people, you're candid with your people, no lying, no faking, no hiding.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I believe most people don't lie.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: They fake and hide in organizations because of fear.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have clear accountability.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: What do you expect from me and what do I expect from you?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to have a a statement of responsibility.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are we going to hold ourselves responsible for?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you've got to have a lot of fun doing it.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's simple.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I hope it's I I hope it's coming across to people that this is in no way, because the point about it being in quotes new age or something like that, this is not this is no in no way a permission slip to uh to dial it in at work or not be held accountable.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, in many ways, it's the exact opposite, right?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's very clear if you and and actually within uh one of the things I like within the book is you is at the at the back of the book, you actually include um specific artifacts that show how you how you set your company goals, that show how you're how you're measuring people's values.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is a um is something that is is really interesting to people because in a lot of the companies that that we work with today, we see a lot of struggle with what I would what I refer to as being unstructured and ambiguous work.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: So um work itself has shifted in many cases, and this has to a certain extent been exacerbated by things like hybrid and remote and flexible work and stuff like that.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Work is is shifting away from the idea of you will move these three widgets from here to here over the course of this you know period of time during a day.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do that, you've done a good job, and if you don't do that, you've done a bad job.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it's shifted it's shifting from that to something that in many organizations is much more uh is much more tenuous.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: And when we speak to employees, we speak to managers, we speak to leaders, but particularly when we speak to employees, I would say something like 90% of the employees that we speak, uh, that we speak to cannot answer in the affirmative that they clearly understand what success looks like in their role.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now you almost flip that on your head, on its head inside WD-40.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: So could you just talk just a little bit more about that?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: When work itself feels a lot more unstructured and ambiguous, how do you get to a point where the employees are really clear on what they're supposed to be doing and how they're supposed to be doing it and the values that they're supposed to be living?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'll go back to um having a clearly defined purpose, having transparency and a simple vision, and then brave accountability and behavior.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are we going to hold each other accountable for?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you act on that all the time.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the measures, another measure we had is 96% of the people uh at the company uh were able to say, I know how my contribution uh impacts the success of the organization.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: So as you get this in play over time, you know, let's not make it that let's not overcomplicate it.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what what is it?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: How do you link what you do to the outcome of the organization?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty simple, right?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And funnily enough, you know, we one of our values was we we we value creating positive lasting memories in all of our relationships.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're in the memories business.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was so powerful because we could use that as a as a point of conversation to help me understand how what you said or did created a positive lasting memory with someone alongside your peer you work with.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that didn't mean that we were just you know singing kumbayar every Friday afternoon.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it meant it was it was very positive.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's simple, it's not easy, and time is not your friend.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, my my algorithm for a great culture culture equals values plus behavior times consistency.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's that consistency side that's so important.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to do it day after day after day after day after day after day after day.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: I might steal that.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I I often define culture as being the way an organization behaves when nobody's looking.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I love your uh I love your equation there, because that kind of um speaks realistically to how you go about shifting a culture and moving a culture, um, which is a challenge that organizations have all across the board.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: I want to shift to um something that I alluded to earlier that we would that we would mention.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: So um situational leadership.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: So um you talked very specifically about um something called situational leadership too, which some people will be aware of, but some people will not.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can you talk a little bit uh more about that and then uh how that was implemented in W40?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: SL2 is a is a common language, and in any situation, people have on a scale a level of confidence and a level of competence.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if you've got an enthusiastic beginner going into a role, um they will be extremely confident in what they have to do.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but their competence may not be to the level to deliver.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, as a leader, you've got to be more directive with your um leadership style.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And this happens every day.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, let's say right now we're pretty comfortable using this um computer.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And overnight, someone updates the computer and the program changes, and all the things aren't where they were before.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: So now you're still confident, but your competence level goes up.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you run through situational leadership to the other side where you've got a very competent and a very uh confident person executing against their goals.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what you don't want to do then is be all over them as directing them because you you're you're checking in with them, you're encouraging them, you're making sure they continue to get it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a great language.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we used to be, we we sat down and we said, Well, where do you think you are on this?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, this is the leadership style that I will now deliver to you.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be reasonably directive and supportive in this style, or over here, I'm gonna be just supportive because you know you know how to do it.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And again, remember it says SL situational, because it in an or in a in a role, there could be areas of the role where someone either is in one box or they're in the other.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really important to have that conversation with the person you're leading and say, where do you think you are here?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now this is how I'm gonna support you.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a beautiful language.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it really is, and there's a there's a nuance to that that I want to make sure that people don't miss because um I think that you know if we if we really simplify it, right?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: What we've what we've observed is that there are there are managers who just manage how they manage.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't matter who is in front of them, you're getting exactly the same, uh, exactly the same version.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't really matter who the uh who the employee is or what the needs are of the employees.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Then there's the then there's the managers that you know kind of understand that they might need to to manage Joe differently than they manage Bob, right?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: But then this goes a level further than that correctly, which is to understand that people are complex human beings and based on the things that they are doing, they're gonna have different levels of competency, and so they're gonna need different styles of management associated with that.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And when the when this is done as a partnership, when both sides are aware of what that level of competency is and they share the language, then the ability to be able to adjust and adapt can be really, really, really useful for both parties.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, as you point out in the book, this is not always complete.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: You might be you might be a level four, but then something might happen, something might change, and you might slip to a level three, and then the style of management needs to change accordingly.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and just that when both parties understand that, then it can make the world a difference.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I one of my big learning moments when I was um doing my leadership degree was to be in a to be effective in leading, you really can't change the other person.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: You have to change the way you are.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a lovely example of that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Initially, you know, we had the disc profile, and I in my early time, I was a type a turbo D.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Be brief, be bright, be gone.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now put me with a turbo eye who is you know late for meetings because they're building relationships along the way, um, there's a conflict.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a really dear person in the organization that I respected a lot, and a great leader.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to go into their office, and this person was a turbo eye, and I'd take my coffee cup and I would say to myself, until I get to the bottom of this coffee cup, I cannot go into my D style.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And in that time, that person was able to be their I person.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, over time, I actually I switched and I became an I D.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: I went back the other way.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if I did disprofile, now I'd be, you know, I and then D.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I for me to get the best out of that person, I had to change.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's whether it's in the way you behave or like SL2, you know, with a situation, and it's it's okay as long as you're having the conversation.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, then the person knows, hey, I'm gonna, you know, you uh I I'm style one with you, Paul, and be be aware that I'm gonna be checking in with you regularly.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's not because I don't trust you, it's just because we both agreed you need a little more help than, you know, but when when you pass that, then I'll be out of your way.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay, I wanna I want to just be a little bit challenging here.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we're we're big fans of this type of approach.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we work with um with individuals and organizations on this.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I will say that when we speak to managers and leaders about this, we often get a response that I'm sure you've probably heard too, which is something along the lines of this is all very well but.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so let me give you one of these this is all very well but lines.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: So even in the best meaning companies, you'll wind up at some point hiring toxic employees every so often.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um they're wide a little bit differently, they're looking to kind of game the system, they're potentially looking to advance themselves at the uh expense of others.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, we know this to be true because almost everybody over 40 has got at least one horror story about working with one of those people.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you apply this?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, for those who are not watching on video, Gary's holding up a uh a doll of uh of this exact human.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but how do you go about dealing with that type of in uh of individual in this type of approach?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a process to go through, but at the end of the day, you know, the end result is you share them with a competitor because they their impact in the competitor will benefit you.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: However, there's a process to go through.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm gonna say that that person isn't very happy in the role.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: If they're in a culture that is working against them, and as long as you've gone through the process and and you know, of having that setting the goals of talking about values and you're being consistent, you get to have that conversation that goes a bit like, Paul, you know, you may be getting these results, but you're not living our values, you're not creating positive lasting memories, and you know that.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: You must be very uncomfortable and you deserve to be happy.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I obviously you're not happy here because you could be happier somewhere else in an environment where you felt natural.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do I help you go to your next happy place?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there is an end to this.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've had situations at the company where you know we've had to help people go to their next opportunity, but we did it with respect and dignity.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: We did it, and that there's the interesting part is it wasn't like that surprise, you know, I call it the Goma pile, surprise, surprise conversation.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: We took time over a period of time to work through this.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, it was like, you know, it's not working.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it was quite funny.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one instance that I remember very clearly, and we'd we'd let someone help someone move on, and as part of the support exit package, um, we gave them some um counseling and or sent them to a counseling organization, and the head of the organization called me up and said, I just want to share something with you.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Yeah, what's that?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: He said, I overheard fill in the blank talking to someone in the in the meeting room or the the break room, and uh they were telling uh this person that if you want to go and work for a great company, you should go and work for WD 40 Company.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in reality, we if you want to use a harsh word, we separated that person.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: But they we did it with respect and dignity.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: They knew it wasn't the right fit in the end.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: It you know, it wasn't the surprise where you're fired, and next thing they go searching for all the reasons why you know you you really treated them wrongly.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: So again, you've you've got to go through the process.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Gary, I want to I want to finish up with something that you alluded to earlier and uh we chatted about in our last discussion.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: So you've mentioned that you think that well-run companies make a difference not just to their employees and to their customers, but also to the broader community.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love you to A, just elaborate on that a little bit more, and then also what you think personally your role is in that.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's pretty obvious that we're in a world right now that's not very happy.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if if people are leaving organizations frustrated, you know, if they're if they're resentful about where they are every day, if they're going home, imagine you you're around the dinner table with your son, daughter, or someone else, and you were bitching about how bad your job is.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you think your son, daughter, or whoever else is going to want to be in that industry?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all because we we create these toxic cultures.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I wrote an article some time back called The Great Escape.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: People weren't leaving, you know, it wasn't the great resignation, it was the great escape because they didn't like these toxic cultures.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, from where I sit, I help build cultures of belonging where love, forgiveness, and learning inspire a happier, more connected world.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: And happy people create happy families, happy families create happy communities, happy communities create a happy world.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And businesses touch more people every day than anything else.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a not only an opportunity as, but we have a responsibility to be to create these environments where people are know they, and I get back to the I repeat myself all the time.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: People know they belong, they know they matter, they're able to make choices, and they know that failure is about learning.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Gary, thanks so much for joining us today.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Really appreciate it.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Humanity Working is produced and edited for Billion Minds by Matt Neal.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Our interviewer is Paul Slater.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Music is by Dolo Records.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you like this podcast, please subscribe, like, and recommend us to others.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us reach more people.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to learn more about how Billion Minds gets companies ready for the future of work by building adaptable, resilient employees, look for them on LinkedIn or visit their website at billionminds.com.