Latest / The Remnant Radio's Podcast / Bethel Just Released a New Statement. Here's Our Take.

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Bethel Just Released a New Statement. Here's Our Take. · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Rumnite Radio.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: In this program, we're going to be reviewing a new statement released by Bethel Church in Reading.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be an exciting program.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, my name is Joshua Lewis.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: We are at the Rumnate Radio covering things like theology, spiritual gifts.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: We are continuationists.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: We believe in the gifts of the spirit.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that we do here on this channel, as rarely as we possibly can, is reviewing exposure content, which involves bringing some clarity and truth into the charismatic space where there has been confusion, uh distrust, where there has been abuse and manipulation.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So there have been, man, recent allegations surrounding a gentleman by the name of Sean Bowles quite quite a while ago.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And Bethel Church gave a response to some of those initial critiques and concerns, began to review some of their policies and procedures, and now have released this statement in response.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know, uh Sean Bowles is a gentleman who had been stealing prophetic words off of Facebook and then revealing them, releasing them over congregations, individuals, based not on the word of the Lord, but based upon information that he had gleaned and data mined.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: This was further compounded, and a little insult to injury was added when Danny Silk's book, Unpunishable, began to be reviewed.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the uh core individuals, such as Jonathan Welton, in that book, as hey, let's restore this guy into ministry, let's get him involved, is a self-proclaimed wolf.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he calls himself a wolf.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when you begin to look at his background, you can go to the Minor Prophets to check out an episode on that specific exposure.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you'll see that Danny Silk, who is pushing the culture of honor and unpunishable over at Bethel Church, well, their theology has actually created this problem.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Their ecclesiology and restoration process has actually created the problem that they're now living in.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: In addition, uh, there has been videos uh that have been released uh by Mike Winger about a Sean Bowles of Australia.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I can't recall his name off the top of my head.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Miller, can you can you recall this guy's name?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, there's a number of other people that are not that you haven't mentioned uh that we should also mention.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you've got allegations not just against Sean Bowles for uh attempting to garner sexual activity with other men that he was that were under him in ministry, uh, data mining for prophecy.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: But then you've got other guys uh like Bob Hartley, who also had done a number of really gross and grotesque things.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh several women have come forward on that.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Then you've got Ben Armstrong, who was on staff at Bethel.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: A girl came forward about uh his attempted grooming efforts, which Bethel called an affair rather than clergy sexual abuse.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then you've got others that they've platformed, like Brian Simmons and the Passion Translation and Sean Floyt, who's got a number of allegations in right now is being uh sued for um fraud.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think$250,000 was given by a man named Stephen Bray, who is now uh suing uh Sean Floyt for alleged fraud.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're just allegation after allegation after allegation.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what Bethel has demonstrated time and time again was a culture of cover-up, as Mike Winger has now uh aptly coined that phrase.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is a much needed response.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen responses initially that were really bad, and then the public response.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And not just the public, but like really it's the Bethel alumni.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta say, and I've said this in the past, but it's worth stating again.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: The real heroes uh of this story are the victims who've come forward and the Bethel alumni who've spoken up and said, this isn't okay.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh again, those who are who who just read this statement that Bethel put out, which we're gonna read for you, uh, we we want to address those who are easily uh persuaded by that.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and really just uh appeal to them again, because it's you're the ones making the changes here.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there are changes happening, and it's a good direction and good change that's happening.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, another thing that's on other names.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mentioned uh the guy that I mentioned from Australia, his name is Gary Morgan.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the reason I'm bringing him up is not because he is in you know close relationship with Bethel necessarily, but they knew about the information and did nothing with it.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, they're Brian Simmons from the Passion is one of his big endorsers.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: They they have another uh gentleman uh there at Bethel, oh Bill Johnson, who uh is the founding pastor there.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's no longer the pastor of Bethel Church, but still uh functions in a leadership capacity, even if it's more of a consulting fatherly, you know, kind of relationship there.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, Bill goes on to uh was it TBN broadcast with Sean Bowles and talks about, well, man, this is this guy, this book is great.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little slice of heaven, but then also when you know the character of the guy who wrote the book.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: So he knows all this stuff about Sean Bowles up at this point and does nothing with it.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there's conversations still about Chris Vallaton and Danny Silk and their involvement with investigating Sean Bowles and where that process went.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: We've done episodes on that.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to get caught up, you know, we'll link it so that you can go check those sorts of things out.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: But all that being said, that kind of catches you up to the current timeline.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: There is massive distrust with Bethel Church in Reading because of the Bob Hartley's, because of the um Jonathan Weltons, because of Danny Silk and his consistent empowerment of uh, man, really bad leaders.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um then you've got, you know, Bill's personal endorsement of guys he knows are frauds.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then you've got this, you know, situation over in Australia with Gary Morgan, and they know about this but do nothing about it.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Over and over and over again, uh, these issues continue to arise.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's a serious problem uh over at Bethel when it comes to ecclesiology and the structure of their church.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are other theological issues that we would quibble with, but uh first things first, I think that we have to handle some of this exposure stuff.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, in light of all of this, Bethel releases an apology.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we did a video reviewing Chris Valentin's response to the Mike Winger video and then Chris Valentin's repentance the week later, which seemed pretty sincere and genuine.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we want to celebrate.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Total 180.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was incredibly well, uh, I think his response was so much more meaty than Bill's response was.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I just want to stress we're not out to crucify these guys.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know for some people you could easily be led into thinking like, man, they guys, those guys about they just can't do enough, and remnant's always so harsh on them.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not really our heart here.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we just want to be, we want to do as best as we can to honestly evaluate it, largely because me, Michael, Josh, we are charismatics.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we we love this stuff.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: We really want to see this stuff progress, the gifts of the spirit being used in the church all the way around the world, people being properly equipped.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: We also just want to see purity in all of it so that Christ is rightly represented.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think we should probably uh dive into the letter.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I I will put my teeth in that situation as well.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: I we we celebrate the things that we see coming out of Bethel that are good and godly and appear to be repentant.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then on the back end, you know, we are gonna criticize things that we think are out of step with the gospel that might encourage and continue the kind of abuse that we've been seeing in the church.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so one of the calls, one of the things that we say here on the program is that we try to call balls and strikes.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's one of the things that we're gonna consistently attempt to do.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we'll attempt to do that with our friends, we'll attempt to do those with people we disagree with on minor issues.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then people who are enemies of the cause of Christ, uh, we will we will call that strike every time.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that that's our hope and aim.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Miller, do you want to walk us through this statement and uh and we'll dive in?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, dear Bethel Online Family, in the past few months, we have listened to feedback from our congregation, staff, board of elders, BSSM alumni, online community, and leaders from across the body of Christ.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: This feedback was moving and important.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: It has shown us areas in our leadership and culture that need attention and reform.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Since February, we have been working hard to make positive changes to our culture and structure.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Strengthening our church community, we believe healthy ministry begins with a strong community, active leadership, and steady pastoral care.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: This season has shown us how important it is to strengthen those foundations.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: In the past several months, we have made intentional changes to our local church and staff first.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: That work includes in March 2026, reshaping Wonder Conference to focus on serving and ministering to the women of our church community.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: April 2026, canceling the healing conference to redirect time, focus, and resources towards this priority.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: April, beginning to gathering staff feedback about areas in our culture that need to be improved.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: April, began developing a volunteer focus group made up of team members across our organization to help strengthen accountability, connection, and mission.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: May reshaped our men's conference into a more locally focused event centered on discipleship, community, and connection.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: We are committed to showing real change through our actions, lasting cultural shift, and renewed commitment to live according to standards that scripture calls us to.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Josh, you want to stop there and respond some?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you have anything you want to say on that?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think that this means something to people who are internal, who have seen what's going on in March and April and May, uh, to an outsider.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know what any of this means.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know how focusing on connection or a women's community event uh is caring for their folks.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that it is for people who are local, um, who are like, hey, that's we're we're just addressing these issues.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: They're getting feedback from us.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again, I want to have the uh rose-colored glasses and hope the best when it comes to responses like this.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I don't know what any of that means personally.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all of it seems extremely vague up into this point that we've uh been reviewing things with leadership.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what's been reviewing, what's been reviewed.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know um how if there's any uh intent to change some structural things uh up into this point.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Not seeing a whole lot I can respond to.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: You got anything?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just think it's important.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: I know that uh in uh charismatic Christianity, we are kind of groomed to uh hope for the best out of people, and that's a good thing.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: We, you know, love believes all things.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think the area where we tend to lack discernment is uh while love believes all things and we are to be innocent as a doves, we also fail to be shrewd as a serpent.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is that component where we actually do need to use some critical thinking skills to assess and evaluate what's happening around us.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that said, uh, I don't want to be overly critical.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that is also an area of temptation for all of us.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so right now I'm with Josh.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a whole lot said here.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think what they're trying to communicate is instead of focusing on their global reach, they're actually trying to hone in and take care of the family they have there within the Bethel community.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's actually a beautiful and good thing.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And probably considering how many people on the inside that they're directly responsible for were hurting based on the failures to expose guys like Sean Bowles.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that failure to expose him meant more people got hurt.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: The failure to expose Bob Hartley meant more people got hurt.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: The failure to expose a number of these leaders means more people got hurt.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're on the inside of that church and you're watching this happen and you're saying, my leaders failed me.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: How can I trust them?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if I can come here.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, yeah, they need to double down on their efforts to take care of in-house things.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I can see that, especially when it comes to the women's conference, especially because it was women by and large who were hurt by these people.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um it makes sense that they do that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: So let's continue though.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let me let me jump right in there because that was one of the critiques.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now that you brought it up, it does jog a memory of mine when the first Mike Winger video released, Chris Fallatin kept appealing to the fact that he had this big international public global audience that he was pastoring and he didn't know how to do that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that we critiqued was like, Dog, you have a local community you're supposed to protect, and you're not protecting them.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if to your point, if that is what is being communicated here on, hey, we're focusing on our local assembly, uh, we're caring for those people.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's a that's a huge change that I want to celebrate.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big deal.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again, I'm not necessarily getting that from this, but after you mentioned it, I'm like, hey, that's a really great way of reading it.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: I really hope that's what's taking place.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we'd want to celebrate that.
• 13:49
  unknown: Cool.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I'll keep reading.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, where we are, we want to update you about our ongoing progress in leadership, governance, church culture, platforming, and community support.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Looking back, we recognize specific challenges which could have been handled more consistently with our biblical principles.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: The engagement of outside professionals early or earlier may have been helpful, and we could have provided more open communication and offered clearer, timelier responses.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: At times, our emphasis on internal discussions and confidential processes may have appeared to limit accountability, resulting in unintentional harm to individuals both within and beyond our church community.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, regarding governance and leadership, some of what uh some of that work has included the following.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: We have engaged external leadership consultant Martin West in XGAP to review our governance, an organizational structure, leadership culture, and operational health.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Martin XGAP has worked with many organizations and churches around the world helping build healthier leadership teams and culture.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Our day-to-day operational, financial, and leadership is now being carried by an executive team.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: This team is led by Steve Moore and Richard Gordon.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Pastors Bill Johnson, Chris, and Kathy Ballatin, and Dan Fairley will continue in their roles as founders and senior spiritual leaders as part of strengthening healthy governance practices.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Decisions regarding organizational structure, cultural view, and accountability processes are being guided by appropriate oversight structures, independent input, and executive leadership.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: We have increased involvement and oversight from our board of elders.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Pastor Bill is on sabbatical, originally planned with the members of the Board of Elders in summer of 2025.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so next would be the reporting on accountability and safety.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just talk about the where they're at and the governance and leadership, some of the updates they have there.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Josh, we go first.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll I'll I'll take a stab at one statement that is representative, I think, of a lot of what I read in this letter and picked up on.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um the engagement of outside professionals earlier may have been helpful.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Our emphasis on uh intentional discussion and confidential process may have appeared to limit accountability, resulting in unintentional harm.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this language of may um appear unintentional, um, uses language that instead of like plainly stating, guys, we were wrong about this, we really screwed this up, we're sorry.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it it repackages everything as perception rather than uprooting things in truth.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is what happened.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: This was bad.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: We did this wrong.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: To be fair, this letter was likely crafted with a bunch of lawyers present um and or went through some kind of screening process to make sure PR does what PR does.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that victims know that there was real harm done.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when someone is reading this, you have to keep them in mind as well.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And when you use language like uh may have been helpful, may have appeared to limit accountability, resulting in unintentional harm, um, that that boils everything down to perception instead of, hey guys, we're sorry if this really betrayed your trust by doing this.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is why we did it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Explain it, not justify it.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then go, okay, maybe we can do this better moving forward.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which it seems like they're trying with bringing someone else in.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know this guy, I don't know this guy's credentials.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I would be careful with uh some of this language.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's not my favorite if I'm gonna be honest.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, great.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're bringing external help.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh organizations need to do this, especially when there's serious failures that the main leaders have committed.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's like what you've just done has shown that you leaders are actually not capable of evaluating the situation.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Your tendency is to protect the perpetrator and not the victim, to restore the perpetrator and not the victim.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been time to time what's gonna happen that happened here.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I think there was a clip that I uh something I said that you guys clipped that went kind of viral because I called out Chris Ballaton for rushing to restore Mike Bickle and yet saying nothing about what it looks like for him to put efforts into restoring the victims.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh it's good they recognize, hey, we've failed, we need outside help, and they're going to get that help.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is, is I don't know what this help is.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what's not stated uh is actually kind of important.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it doesn't tell us, you know, what prompted the review.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm assuming uh what prompted it was their failures, but you should state that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whether there was any kind of um misconduct on their part that that actually so owning that misconduct and saying, here's why we're doing this, because here's where we failed.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I get that they kind of did that in their former statement, but it needs to also be in this statement as well.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then when it comes to the those who are doing the investigation, a little bit about them.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um like, okay, are the the findings of their investigation, this outside consult consulting team, is it gonna be made public?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, who hired the consultants?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, who pays them?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm assuming Bethel pays them.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that kind of goes without saying, but it doesn't state that.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then that that's kind of important because it reminds you that if this investigation is being paid for by Bethel, then who gets the results of those findings?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Does it automatically go public or does it just come to an internal channel where then lawyers pre-package what's said so that it can be stated publicly without any potential uh backlash or PR nightmares?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then can people who are interviewed, can they be interviewed confidentially with the results of the investigation, leaving those people who are interviewed still confidential?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it just again, external doesn't necessarily mean independent.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a big problem.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't know what to do with that.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: So uh there needs to be more information, there needs to be more transparency.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that reform, I mean, the the transparency they talk about here, where they sort of acknowledge, like, hey, our lack of transparency has actually harmed people, but you're still kind of not being transparent.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we want.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we need.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because trust has been broken.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that uh trust has been broken.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, people are going, well, remnant radio, it's not like you guys need to have their trust.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, to be fair, we all do.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: They put themselves out there as a public, trustworthy uh resource to source other churches, to bring in the kingdom and usher in all that heaven has for earth.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I think I don't know about you, Josh.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I used to look to Bethel.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I stopped a long time ago because I was seeing major failures.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they were the example church and they put themselves out there to be the example church.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So again, um that public response and that public transparency, it actually does matter.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the whole mouthful.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's good.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing another thing in here uh as part of strengthening healthy healthy governing practices.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: After saying Bill Johnson, Chris Vallaton, um Danny, Dan Varley, all of these guys are still in their executive leadership roles as spiritual leaders and founders of their space.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: They go on to say a part of strengthening healthy governing practices, practice decisions regarding organizational structure, cultural review, and accountability processes are being guided by operative oversight structures, independent input, and executive leadership.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean I don't know what that even means.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um it says, hey, our leaders are still leading, but we're gonna have we're gonna have structures put in place for healthy governance practice.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Your leaders who are the ones who put those governance practices in place, the ones that you already had.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that you're it looks like you're looking to those leaders to do the same thing.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: To be fair, they suggest that there's oversight structures.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: They say their board of elders is gonna be more involved.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's coming from their internal board.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um accountability processes uh be uh being guided for oversight structures.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I don't know what that means.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh independent input.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, does that mean that you're having like Todd Bentley give input?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know what that means.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm not saying that Beltville Church is looking to Todd Bentley, right?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying like it's certainly not Todd Bentley, but I know it's certainly not, right?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: But but that's I'm asking the question, kind of tongue in cheek, to say um, is it a Patricia King?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is it some someone else that everyone is right now looking to going, Yikes, you have been caught in scandal after scandal too.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: You knew about a lot of a lot of this stuff and haven't done anything about it, you participated in cover-up.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what kind of leaders are they bringing in to give independent input?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: That I think for me, if but and Bethel's not trying to win me, right?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like necessarily, but if I'm going to Bethel Church and I'm saying, hey, uh, I want to know what's going on.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for you know giving me direction of our future, I'm gonna have this question, which is who are these leaders?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Who are these external inputs that you're getting?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then how much executive leadership team has a say?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: How much does the board have a say?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I those are those are questions because it if someone says, you know, hey, uh I'm so sorry this thing happened in our church recently, you know, this horrible abuse took place.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're getting involved in in in restructuring things.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're keeping all the leadership exactly where they are, and but we're just gonna we're gonna look at restructuring.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think you you do you owe it to the member of your church to give some details on what that looks like.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Unless, of course, you're just saying we haven't yet put up a structure.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're waiting to do that, which I think is what they said in their last letter.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm not quite seeing how this is informative of actually what's happening in their assembly as of yet.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I uh it was kind of fun because I get to put to practice my my degree in college.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: My degree was rhetoric and communication.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what what I see here is there's everything about this statement, it projects and uh communicates action.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Look, we did this in March, we did this in March, and then we did this in April and April and April and May.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: So here's all the actions we're taking, here's how we're taking responsibility.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it it projects that that that uh persona of we're the kinds of people that take responsibility, we're the kinds of people who take you clean up our mess.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: But then when it doesn't give you any details, there's really no admission of anything.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the really tough part.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the thing is, I actually believe they're taking steps.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that part of it.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I believe they're taking actions, they're consulting the outside.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but the thing is, public trust is right now what you need.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can't state the sins and the failures explicitly, then it's really hard to know that repentance and change has truly happened.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so we need specifics.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I I get why they do this.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's this is a PR nightmare for them.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I wouldn't be surprised if Bethel's financials are suffering.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is me purely speculating here, but I I have got to wonder with a PR nightmare like this, what would drive up when suddenly parents go, I'm not sending my kids there.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm not paying for you to go to that ministry school.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was a major avenue of finances and that's suddenly gone.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And people, they plan budgets on those things.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I I just I I know how it's what it's like running an organization.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I and so I I get it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we we need details.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that those details, yeah, they might cost you.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And but that that's actually what's needed because of how trust has been broken.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So let's continue, Josh.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Please.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, where do we leave off?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Recording accountability and safety.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: That work includes February 2026, an independent organization with expertise in complex investigations, is leading the inquiry into allegations involving a specific leader and our response.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that seems like one leader.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we will not comment further while the investigation is ongoing because the process is independent.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: We do not oversee its timeline.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: February 2026, we continued third-party safe church reporting pathways through MiraTech, formerly known as Centrio.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: In March 2026, we expanded review, escalation, and follow-up processes related to safe church reports, including clarified reporting and escalation pathways, strengthened follow-up expectations, and additional review measures for concerns involving misconduct, coercion, misuse of spiritual authority, and leadership dynamics.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: In March and April, we began our consultation with the outside professionals in clergy accountability, misuse of authority, and leadership dynamics in preparation for the increased training this summer.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: In April, we strengthen our review processes for allegations involving misconduct or misuse of spiritual authority.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: More than just building stronger systems, we believe God is calling us to create a healthier culture.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: We want our church family to be known for God's presence, purity, power, humility, wisdom, integrity, healthy leadership, accountability, safety, and real pastoral care.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to pause there, Josh, because I don't want to go to the next.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: The next one will be wider culture and ministry review.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the February 2026 independent organization with experience in complex investigation is leading the inquiry into allegations involving a specific leader and our response.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned, hey, that looks like it's only one leader.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think our assumption is that's Bob Hartley.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's my assumption, is because there's allegations.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: My assumption, my assumption is it's internal.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: It has to do with uh uh Ben Armstrong.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I mean if it's an investigation that's ongoing, he's yeah, that's probably what it is.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: That that's what that's that's the person I meant.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I apologize.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'll maybe I'll cut that.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, the the idea is I I think that's likely Ben Armstrong.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: I got the wrong name just a second ago.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but here's the thing.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think people who need to be investigated, and I say this like I know this is gonna upset some people, but like I I think Chris Fallaton and Danny Silk need to be investigated as to how much they need what they did, what they didn't do, and Bill.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because really we know these guys are bad dudes.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's been made plain to the public eye.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you release a statement, say these guys, you mean you mean the predators, not Bill Johnson?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: The offenders, not those three that I mentioned.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not the three that I mentioned.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you, Michael.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Sean Bowles and um these these various individuals who come out, I don't want to get their names wrong, Ben Armstrong, these individuals who are at Bethel.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think in the public eye, we already we distrust, we think these guys are are wolves, they're they're not healthy dudes.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I think what we actually need an investigation on is the discernment of the people in charge.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if I was a member of Bethel, uh it would be easy for me to say these the the wolves are wolves, but like my shepherds, are are they just like wholly uninformed and unable to make discernment, you know, function appropriately?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because that would determine whether they needed to step down or not.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I've said it, not in our major Bethel videos, but like I really think that the right response for these guys is to step down and let another group of leaders come in to try and restore confidence in the leadership of Bethel and steer them into a different direction.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I mean, those are those are my two cents on some of this.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm glad that they're you know making more robust their reporting process.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm glad they have some kind of independent investigation.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to know who that was with.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because again, that makes a world of difference on who's doing the investigation, what organization are they trained to do that.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a lawyer group um or is it a truly independent investigation of people who have practice looking for these sorts of things?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I mean that those are those are my initial thoughts on the reporting accountability and safety.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a lot of like corporate jargon.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's good actually.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean, I don't like corporate jargon.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I like value and what they're and that they're bringing in outside help to help them accomplish pursuing those values.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: So like healthy governance practices, um, organizational structure, uh, anything that involves sort of reform.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I like that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that there's independent input being given uh to the organization.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: What are you there are still things that are lacking?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want to see words like repentance and confession and specifics around areas where they've failed in the past.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there is something sort of alluded to though.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the fact that the elders were previously what says that they're gonna be more involved, okay.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: That means they might have been previously not super involved, which is a good thing.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I think also the the language of Bill being on sabbatical, that's intentional, right?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to make sure that we know uh that everybody knows this isn't a forced sabbatical for Bill, or Bill's not getting a paid vacation because he he failed.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like this was already in the works and planned.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I I get that.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that does happen coincidentally.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's probably gonna get the most scrutiny uh as the founder, and that's how that works.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's always if it's you have a top-down organization, then the blame ends up going back to the top, and and rightly so, especially in this situation.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh, yeah, the they're being very intentional in the language here.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm not saying that's bad.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think that's that's good.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: You want to make sure you're looking at all of these things and making sure that things can't be miscommunicated.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh I see overall a positive shift here.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um again, uh time will tell.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where is the repentance and confession here?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I and I know that they've done that in the past, but that's still specific statements, specific failures.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the reason you need this reform is because there was a problem here in the past where we as leaders failed.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so the area where we leaders failed is also an area that needs to be investigated.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: All of us need our own psyche kind of checked out.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And quite frankly, I'd love that.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: If I was gonna uh if there was a sudden had the funds to do an internal investigation because of allegations, I'm like, cool, this is great.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's investigate us as leaders because whatever they find is only gonna help us become more like Christ at the end of the day.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so they should welcome that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe they are.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not explicitly stated.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the only person that we know of that's probably being investigated is Ben Armstrong.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I wish that the leadership had been investigated on some level to understand how it is that we got where we are.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think what they're doing is mostly looking at systems and overall uh health and pictures.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: So Josh, you have any more to comment on that?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, you said like in this one, there's not a whole lot of apology and taking ownership of what's happened.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um is that appropriate in this letter?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I I was asking myself the same question when I read it, going, hey, this isn't much of an apology.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then I go, they released a public video.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: They released a public letter.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't necessarily want to scrutinize them for saying, hey guys, here's an update on our apology.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, remember how repentance needs to be followed by actions.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we we can't just be a Zacchaeus and be like, I'm sorry for stealing everybody's money.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be Zacchaeus who says, I'm sorry for stealing everybody's money, and here's it back, right?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Some kind of restitution.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it looks like they're taking.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see anything about restitution in this letter yet, right?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what we see is I see actions and evaluations.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Actions and evaluations trying to not rectify the past as much as it is to create safeguards moving forward so this kind of thing doesn't happen again.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I still, and that's good.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's part of repentance.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's really changing, that's probably changing your direction.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: I still need restitution, I'm not seeing it yet, but uh looking forward to it still.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh the the reason I think it's actually important is because in the past what they've done is restored predators rather than restoring victims.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so the emphasis on victims, it needs to be higher and higher in the language that they communicate publicly and actions that they take.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that restoration part of it to the victims.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Again, victims, we didn't do enough for you.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh like I'm still wondering if Jubilee has ever been contacted by Bethel.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh at this point, I doubt she even wants to hear from him.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like almost too little, too late, but still acknowledgement of what she's gone through.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I don't know.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: You you might be right, maybe I'm being overcritical there, but uh considering how things have functioned in the past, it's like I want that.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's move on.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go uh wider culture and ministry review.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: We've also begun broader cultural and ministry review with input from internal stakeholders and external experts to provide greater objectivity, accountability, and independent perspective.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Areas currently under review include leadership, culture, and accountability, prophetic ministry oversight and training, pastoral standards and conduct, reporting and escalation processes, platforming practices, restoration processes, and leadership reinstatement, uh, reviewing biblical theology and cultural framework that helped shape our community and culture, including teachings related to honor, accountability, restoration, reconciliation, authority structures, examining how these frameworks are understood, communicated, and applied by Bethel leadership and throughout the Bethel community.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I this part I love.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, these are the things that led to everything you're into.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're reviewing these policies, these values that are the, and that's just your values, they are the undergirding of everything that fleshes out in your community.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sorry, I'm a little excited about that.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's the end of that section, though.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to quickly make mention.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Josh, do you have something to add to that?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's great.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh specifically language around honor.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Danny Silk's book, Culture of Honor, has really kind of repackaged um this idea where, you know, back in the day, we there was language of don't touch the Lord's anointed.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to see that language explicitly used uh inside of Danny Silk's book, but what you will see language of we have apostles and prophets at the top.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: We have to honor their anointing and honor their gift in order to have that flow downward.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: And teachers, you know, they're hypercritical and they want to discern and man, they're just really not that useful in the body of Christ if they're not submitted to an apostle or a prophet, which essentially creates a closed loop system where people in the church that have discernment who want to challenge, who want to, well, I don't see that in the Bible.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're kind of pushed down to say, like, if you, as an individual with this discernment, like really critical thinking skills, you're probably a teacher.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're going to criticize anything the apostle does, you're not going to receive that anointing downstream.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really training people to shelf their discernment.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm really thankful that they're really looking at this because I do think that this is a recipe for disaster when you begin to see things that are a little bit out of step, out of line, uh, things that that look off.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, like the the Sean Bowl sort of situation.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what if there are people in the church who, man, they suspected some stuff going on, but they didn't want to get outside of that flow.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted to honor that gift in order to receive his anointing.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's a dangerous thing.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm thankful that they're looking at this.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thankful that they're um reevaluating it.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that there are some statements about passion translation, physics of heaven, culture of honor.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now that would be, I think, uh probably too much to ask for.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the lady.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's not too much to ask for.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think it's it needs to be it's an unrealistic expectation, is what I mean.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it too much to ask for?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, should we get that?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: But um there I think that's like biting off more than we can chew in some sense.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Not not us as as people on the outside, I love it, but they they have drama after drama, and by doing those things, they'll probably create more drama.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: So like I understand why they would like, hey, we're handling this issue.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: I hope they address those other issues, but I hope that they happen internally at least, like at minimum.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the Physics of Heaven book was produced by um, I think it's Judy Franklin is Bill Johnson's assistant, and I believe reasonably, uh, yes, I believe reasonably this book was published.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: There was endorsement slapped on the book without careful thought or attention.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: But this book is syncretism.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's teaching people to practice new age practices and reclaim them for Christ in the church, practices that church have left or uh, you know, uh have found unusable.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: We should reclaim the new age and you know, see if they've discovered something the church has not yet discovered.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's pretty wild stuff.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um Passion Translation, there's gonna be a video, I think, uh soon exposing some of the problems there.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we've already done tons of videos on it.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's a ton of problems, but uh it's worse than you think.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh then we go ahead.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm just gonna say I again my empathy here kicks in because I'm like, you've you've these people have put into writing a lot of your values, and it turns out that what they wrote and what you guys valued harmed people.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: It harmed a lot of people.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Culture of honor has harmed people, it is devalued the most critical thinkers in your church that understand the scriptures, the teachers.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: It has platformed uh unpunishable, has has caused you to default to restoring predators rather than restoring victims.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this this stuff harmed people.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I can only imagine what that's gotta be like.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like to have to go to Danny Silk and say, hey, this book that you spent all this time writing, and I understand this is my take, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think Danny just put into writing what they all believed.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was just able to uh uh capitalize on it, and good for him.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's smart.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um but when you're capitalizing something bad, that's not smart, that's bad.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you're if you're putting something out there and you're able to monetize it and it's actually a good thing that everybody wins on, I'm like, great, but that's not what happened here.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so now they're having to go back and probably pull books off shelves and have really hard conversations internally.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't happen overnight.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so they the amount of time that's probably required to do this and the amount of hard conversations and having to explain to people like, hey, we can't sell your book anymore.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, our values that you wrote down, it's on all of us here.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know what it looks like to to make it right to all these people.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because in some way it was the leadership that said yes to those books that's also responsible.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's man, it's just that's that's just gotta be tough.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I I it's unfortunately work they have to do.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: They don't get to to take a they get out of jail free year on this.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: But man, I that's just painful.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I think that's where I said I find it unrealistic, not because I don't think they should do it.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think they should.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that Bethel historically has prior prioritized the feelings of people that they're in community with uh over public statements that protect larger groups.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it may be the case that internally they have some dialogue, they stop promoting, stop publishing culture of honor, not that they're publishing it, but selling it in their bookstores, same thing with physics of heaven, same thing with passion translation.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like it may be the case that uh those things begin to take place internally.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that'd be great if it happened internally.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it would be better if there were some public statements that said, hey, I think that these are unintended consequences of things that were said in this book, and we want to avoid those sorts of things.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Miller, I know you've got to wrap up soon, so I'm gonna pump it over to you and you can um you know keep finish out.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, public ministry accountability, BSSM as a formation environment, including leadership, culture, power dynamics, spiritual authority, student experience, and the systems and structures that shape community life and development, platforming.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: One of the biggest things we want to acknowledge is that our platform carries real weight and responsibility to be used consistently with our other biblical principles.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: We also understand that restoration and reinstatement are not the same thing.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I was talking to Ron Cantor about this.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: I love that language.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Ron is the one who's first mentioned that.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: He said restoration is about, or the statement says restoration is about healing, repentance, redemption, and helping someone be made whole with again in Christ.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Reinstatement is about returning someone to his previous position of leadership, influence, and responsibility, which requires rebuilding trust with those impacted, those they led, and those responsible for oversight and accountability, along with demonstrating the fruit of repentance, which reflects godly character, wisdom, and accountability.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: We should always pursue restoration, but reinstatement must be approached with wisdom because grace offers forgiveness, but it does not remove the need for stewardship, consequence, and rebuilding trust.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: As we review platforming, we want to follow our clear biblical standards for public ministry leadership.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: Scripture calls leadership to live above approach and to show self-control, faithfulness, humility, integrity, and care for those they lead.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Public ministry influence is responsibility, not a right.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And 1 Peter 5, 2 through 3 reminds leaders to shepherd God's flock, not lord over those entrusted to them, but to be examples to the flock.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: We will not make decisions about platforming based solely on rumors, pressure, or unverified claims.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, credible concerns may lead to further review, discernment through appropriate reporting and accountability processes.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: If there are proven patterns of behavior that do not align with biblical standards, we cannot continue to platform, endorse, or support that person for ministry leadership here.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: During this time, we also want to be clear about our relationship with some outside ministry leaders we have worked with or platformed in the past.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: We believe clarity is an important part of accountability, and we want our church, family, and community to understand our current relationship, level of support, and status regarding these individuals.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Following internal review and discussion, we've made the decision to confirm publicly that we no longer platform the following individuals: Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, Sean Bowles, Bob Hartley.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically regarding Bob Hartley, Bethel took action after concerns were raised in previous years.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: We restricted his ministry involvement, informed our church community, and later limited his access to Bethel's campus.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: As part of our current review, we want to clearly state that Bob Hartley is not endorsed, platformed, or permitted to serve in ministry influence at Bethel.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: The last little section is personal matters.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: We'll come back to that.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is probably the area that I'm this is going to get me a little fired up here.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, Josh, I'll let you go first and I'll try to tone my my voice here.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it sounds to me like this first paragraph is a great paragraph.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe I should have let you give your two cents before I said, hey, this is good because you're passionate about this.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but this language of uh reinstatement versus restoration is a really, really good statement.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's the first time we're hearing them admit first time I'm hearing them admit uh that there's a difference between this culture of honor and unpunishable sort of approach, where man, it's it's God's heart.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: To get everyone back in the pulpit, back into leadership.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great move.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that they're pointing people back to trust and accountability and fruits of repentance.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's extremely important.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of wish there was more being communicated here.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is the first time Sean is being brought up in this letter.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: They've made public statements about him.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Those are some of my initial thoughts.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Jump in.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I also have differentiation.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: I really do like that differentiation between restoration and reinstatement.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Finally.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is you didn't tell me what reinstatement is going to look like.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Will you reinstate people who have sexually abused?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: They've misused their power to sexually groom and sexually abuse people.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't tell me enough about reinstatement and what you believe about that.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to know that because that's going to help me make a decision on whether or not my kid gets to come to your ministry school or whether I can endorse people going to your church.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: That right there is such a huge thing.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: It also, you you haven't told me anything about your theology of punishment.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: From what I understand, Bethel has an underlying belief that God's justice is not retributive, it's restorative, it's not punitive.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big problem.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's a huge problem.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it undergirds the reason why you believe people are unpunishable.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um I just don't, I don't, it doesn't tell me enough.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I really get hung up.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: That theology has done so much damage.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it continues to, and it's it's been exported everywhere where people think it's totally fine.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: They should be reinstated.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me more.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: What do you actually believe about reinstatement?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that forgiveness is available for everybody.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you you use words there that are helpful, but I still don't know actually how it flushes out, and that is key.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so now you've told us who you're not going to publicly endorse.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also some names mentioned, uh not mentioned.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: One big one, uh, Sean Foyt.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Why is he not in there?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: How is it that you cannot publicly make a statement about someone like him who is clearly grifting?
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, there's a lawsuit that's gonna come for it.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna wait for that lawsuit to pan out to make that decision?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: While in the meantime, I mean, the fact is uh the relationship there, everybody knows.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Behind the scenes, his burns have burned more bridges uh than any war.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's just so much to that.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's other people I'm going, well, there's gotta be more names than that.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, I think it's important.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, can I push back a little bit?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just the idea of like who you're gonna restore and how you're gonna do it, they're not at the point in that process where they even know.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they've been under this impression for the longest time that honor culture, you know, unpunishable culture is we always get that leader back in the saddle.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, for the first time, they're admitting, like, look, yeah, I don't know if that's the case.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if uh that that's always uh the requirement that people need to be reinstated.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, hey, we're we're gonna commit to look for fruit before we make those decisions.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we're gonna approach it with wisdom.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that might be as best as they can offer at this moment.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think they have to really critically think who they're going to reinstate and how they're gonna go about that process.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if this letter it's appropriate to give all of those details because they might then commit to something that they don't quite have formed yet.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they might wait for this guy to find out, yep, this is a bad situation in this investigation.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now we've got to figure out what we're gonna do with it.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um is that fair?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't know.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: You tell me, uh if you don't know, that's a problem, right?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I that means I I don't yet feel safe.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't know if I can endorse you yet because you don't know.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're saying, hey, Michael, let's just state it differently.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just say, hey, you guys need time to draw conclusions on this.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and when you have that time to draw conclusions, you'll make those conclusions known.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: I can get that.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can get behind that.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna take that time to figure that out.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I still I need to know that you know at some point.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's it.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm saying that because for the person who's easily persuaded by this statement, they go, look, look at all they did.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: And look that they're they're they're they're they're throwing out the unpunishable.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, they haven't quite done that yet.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're just evaluating it.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're just acknowledging that maybe there is a difference between restoration and reinstatement.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they haven't told us how it flashes out yet.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh that matters uh for the person because I want the person who is easily persuaded.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: I want the person that is a Bethless supporter and is rooting for them as I am.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: I want them to think through that.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's probably, I mean, it's fair to say they don't know and let's give them some time, but it's also fair to say they need to know.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you do know, just promise at least you're going to let us know exactly what that means and how that fleshes out.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is it appropriate in this letter to be like, you know, we're not going to reinstate predators of children?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to reinstate, you know, because again, if you if you say things like, I won't reinstate people of clergy sexual abuse.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: Someone fell into adultery when they were a youth pastor in their 20s, and they fell in adultery, you know, with someone who was a year older than them but was a youth leader.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going to go clergy sexual abuse?
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then this guy, you know, 15, 20 years later.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think it's still on the table.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe, maybe they shouldn't be in ministry.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm just saying, what if they're afraid of saying we're not going to reinstate anyone with clergy sexual abuse?
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if anyone commits sex in church, it's like clergy sexual abuse.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like maybe they're trying to prevent themselves from being painted in a corner.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm just asking like the question, like, why mention all the people you won't won't reinstate?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because that'll be used against you later.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh maybe, maybe uh instead of specifics uh uh regarding like in this case we won't.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: In this case, I mean it's not like we have those public statements.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, some of them we do.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but just simply acknowledging some people will never be reinstated.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: There are some cases that just can't be reinstated.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's fair.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: The reason I'm saying that is because the underlying theology of unpunishable is that we're unpunishable.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's never going to be anything retributive.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I go, no, no, absolutely not.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's actually retribution for the unrepentant.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's where I'm When you see this line about restoration versus restitution, uh, yeah, uh reinstatement versus restoration, you're going, uh the I needed to hear something that say there are people who cannot be reinstated.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like that would that would give you confidence.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I I in the same way in the same way our culture doesn't reinstate a person who's committed financial fraud who was a financial planner or an accountant, uh, you know, that they lose that right.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or a person who's a uh you know, licensed professional counselor loses when they break HIPAA and break confidentiality, they lose their their counseling license.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um like we need to know that that is also true in in when in cases of certain cases.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't necessarily have to name every case where it's true that they can't be reinstated or they're gonna lose their credentials.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um we need to at least know that you will do that at some point.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: And right now you're saying I we cannot endorse these ministries.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um good.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's man, that's is I just only one time in all of Bethel's history did I see that prior to Bethel getting exposed for failing to do that.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um which which was uh was it Jeremy Westfield or or yeah, something Westfield.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: Jason Westerfield, that's what it is.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first time I heard that, only time I heard that until the last couple years.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's helpful, Michael.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for clarifying that.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do you want to read the rest of the statement and we'll close out?
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Personal matters.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: We also want to address partnerships and employment matters.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, California Constitutional Privacy Protections Limits, what employers can share about their employees.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, we are unable to publicly discuss or disclose personal matters involving current or reformer employees.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: We recognize that for some, these limitations can contribute to concerns around transparency.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: However, this restriction does not mean we are indifferent and active or unwilling to address serious concerns when allegations involve staff.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: We handle them thoroughly or through appropriate reporting, review, investigation, and accountability processes.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: We also recognize that past issues may have impacted members of our church family and understand that previous experiences may have affected trust in both leadership and reporting system.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: In response, we have continued to strengthen our reporting pathways, oversight, accountability processes to deliver clearer, safer, and more consistent responses.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Please keep praying for us as we continue God's presence, purity, power, integrity, humility, godly character, righteousness, and helping the church family with humility and love.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: Bethel Church Senior Leadership and Team of Board and Board of Elders.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: We obey the laws as Christians until those laws prohibit us from doing the moral right thing to do.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or those laws require us to do immoral wrong things.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: And in the case of publicly making known uh in order to warn the church about former employees who also happen to be predators, I go, if California law prohibits that, I break the law because scripture demands that I expose.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I understand why you're doing it.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Again, there are times where it's appropriate to break the law.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's where it requires obedience to God first.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Who's your primary authority?
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it scripture in Christ, or is it United States government, local government, um California government?
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I can see a place where I break that law if it means protecting other people from predators.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's I think that's fair.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I'm I think that there's a way to do both.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: So like um in our membership paperwork, um, it would be something that I would encourage people to get into their bylaws of an organization.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: It would be something that you would want to people to sign like an employment contract and talk about those sorts of things so that if and when public correction needs to take place.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, like in our membership paperwork of our church, we have you know statements that they're going to submit to Matthew 18, church discipline kind of thing.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the requirements to be a member if and when something egregious takes place.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: We've never had to do that publicly.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: We've been a church for three years.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're not eager to do it.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're not like, woo-hoo, let's exercise church discipline, kick people out, and you know, uh get people on a a track of exposure.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: We we've not we've not needed to come publicly before the church as commanded in Matthew 18 or in 1 Corinthians 5.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, rebuke an elder before all uh so the rest in fear from 1 Timothy.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: We've not had to do that.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um so and thankful, thankful to the Lord that we haven't had to do that yet.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh however, I think that you can have bylaws in place as a religious organization that keep you exempt from other sorts of laws, that people have consented to the fact that if they're caught in uh a certain sin uh and or uh are placed under discipline or excommunicated from the church, that it gets publicly shared with the church.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um if they can disclose that, I think that you're actually safe and protected.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think it allows you to do both.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: It allows you to maintain your religious freedom as an organization to be consistent with what is commanded in scripture.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think that would protect you.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a church in California and you're afraid of this, but you want to obey scripture, you don't have to just fall on your sword and defy the government and get penalized, fined, and sued.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can lightly rework your bylaws right now, have people sign an employment contract that consents to certain kinds of disclosures when necessary.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh if that's a person who doesn't want to work there because they have to sign that kind of disclosure, it's not the kind of person you want working there anyway.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it would likely help you in your hiring process.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: So those are those are my two cents on that.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing I still would like to hear, somebody needs to make a statement about what Jen Johnson said publicly that has now been sort of expunged from the internet that people grab clips of.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was that statement about how we'll we're gonna let the courts handle that.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um we we need to know.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: Bethel, do you agree with that?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because that's not in your statement.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: It sort of implied that some of the people that are like Mike Winger, who's publicly exposing these things, um, is gonna be sued.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you didn't mean to imply that, or if she spoke out of turn and she was wrong, please state that.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh also, why haven't you talked to him?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe there maybe there is conversations, but that I know of, I don't think Chris Valentin has ever had a conversation or Danny Silk has ever had a conversation.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Look, you needed a Mike Winger to point out your failures.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think you owe him a debt of gratitude and maybe a conversation.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so those just the last things uh that are still kind of sticking points that aren't.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure to give John Mark Baker his due, too.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh I don't think anybody would have known about Sean had it not been for uh John Mark.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean there's just guys out there.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: And Jeff Simons and John Mark Baker.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, again, I don't think they have to talk to every critic on the planet.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying, look, uh I think there needs to be conversations.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they did at great cost to themselves what you guys should have done.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep, yep.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Remnant Radio.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, you don't got nothing else to say, right?
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: Guys, thank you so much for tuning in this episode of Remnant Radio.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hope you enjoyed this video.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hope it helps you think uh critically uh about the these sorts of public statements.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we hope this episode has been edifying and encouraging to you.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you in the next time, uh, the next episode of the Remnant Radio.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: We typically air programs on Mondays and Wednesdays from 4 to 5 p.m.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: Central Standard Time.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you guys then.
• 59:31
  unknown: Bye.