Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Rogan Young Spotify Spat || The Game || SLP393

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Rogan Young Spotify Spat || The Game || SLP393 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and thank you for downloading episode 393 of the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't know me, my name is Thomas Thorgood.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: You might remember me from episode 392.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to jump straight into today's conversation, and then Paul and I will join forces at the end for some exclusive podcast chat.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: See ya later.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, hello and welcome to the Speakeasy.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Paul Feasy, and as always, I'm joined by Nate Morgan Locke.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um Glenn's not joining us today.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: He hasn't just forgotten to turn up again.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's actually away.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: How many times are we gonna force him to relive?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's actually away, he's in Belfast at the moment.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: He's uh helping out uh with a mission week there called uh is it Human Belfast?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Human Belfast, yeah.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, as opposed to Animal Belfast.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Vegetable Belfast.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: That was a very strange mission week.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Vegetable Belfast.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Got a lot of stuff out of that Veggie Tales material though, which was good.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: So um good for that.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: But he's gonna be there a week.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: He's there with two of our interns.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: He's gonna be speaking at a number of events through the week.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: So um please do be praying for him and for the um the mission week as a whole.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: So today, as always, we're gonna be diving into um the mailbag, and then a little bit later on, Nate's gonna be talking to us about a film, and it's the 1997 film, The Game.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: The game.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: The game.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: Ah.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: What?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: I lost the game.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: You just lost the game.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: The game where the aim of the game is not to think about the game.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: No, see, well, people of a certain generation will know what we're talking about.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: All youth workers will get what we're talking about as well.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, others may not quite know what's going on.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um but before, actually, we're gonna start thinking about the COVID Spotify spat that has kicked off over the last few days.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: The spatify?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: Spatify, as we have called it.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Which I'm surprised no newspapers have jumped on that.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: Spotify spatial.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: Wasted it, speak like.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um so anyway, uh what we're talking about here is the Spotify hosted podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience, which has almost 200 million downloads a week, was criticized by musician Neil Young for helping to spread COVID misinformation.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: Young accused Spotify of, and I quote, spreading fake information about vaccines, potentially causing death to those who believe the disinformation being spread by them.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: In another statement, he called the music streaming giant the home of life-threatening COVID misinformation, adding, lies being sold for money.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: And following on from that, singer, songwriter, and friend of Young, Joni Mitchell also wading, saying, irresponsible people are spreading lies that are costing people their lives.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um although she didn't explicitly mention Rogan himself, but she did include a link to an open letter signed by a group of scientists and medical professionals which criticised Spotify for hosting the Joe Rogan experience.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: And as a result of that, both artists have um I I was gonna say they've requested to have their music pulled.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think it has been pulled from Spotify now.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: So if you want to listen to Neil Young or Joni Mitchell, you cannot go to Spotify for that anymore.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: No elsewhere.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so what do we think about all this then?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm just a bit sick of talking about vaccines, so I don't really want to talk about it, but it's in the news and it's a it raises other issues as well about cancel culture and just about um being on the same platform as someone and then deplatforming, and that's sort of part of the cancel culture thing.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose the the reason why it's such a big deal, or the reason why it came to a head, was not because Neil Young and Joni Mitchell made their decision quietly and just moved off, it's because Neil Young offered Spotify an ultimatum.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they said he said you can have Neil Young or Joe Rogan.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can't have both.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Decide.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Decide now who you want Neil, and I never thought I was gonna have to make that decision.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Choose this day.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought yeah, exactly.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that is quite a thing, isn't it?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite a decision to make.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: In one set at one level, I think Neil Young, fine, you don't want your music to be on Spotify for whatever reason, whatever, that's fine, but it feels like you've you've stepped into another territory when you're saying either he goes or I go because I cannot with good conscience have my music being listened to by people on this on this platform, and so I yeah, I I think there's nothing wrong with you choosing not to be at something or go to something and saying I'm not gonna do it.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's once you're saying, unless like you're trying to force the hand of Spotify, and let's be honest, Spotify just want to make money.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: So they're looking at the download numbers and just saying, Well, yeah, Joe Rogan gets how many I think so yeah, 200 million.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Nearly as many as the speakeasy.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's just you know um so it makes complete sense for Spotify to say, Well, we'll just stick with Joe Rogan.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's what they've done.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: They've said it wasn't just them, was it?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was Neil Young, who I like.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of I like lots of his music, you know, Harvest Moon and um all the others that I know about.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: After the Gold Rush, is that the album?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I've liked a lot of his music.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Joni Mitchell couldn't care less.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like any of her music.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I find it quite irritating.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Find it great.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, whatever.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not interesting.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm not really into Joni Mitchell, but I mean the kin she's got a couple of nice little tunes.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's not very patronizing, don't you?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: You do, you do.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: She's got a nice little tunes.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Who's lasted decades?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: But no, I I didn't really care about her.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not only them, it's that they have started a bit of a mass exodus, which and again I don't want to undermine uh Neil's Groffren, the guitarist for Bruce Springsteen.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: But he's the third one that's left Spotify.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that feels like it's a strange it's like Neil Young, oh wow, that's big.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Joni Mitchell, yeah, I heard of her too.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Bruce Springsteen.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh Bruce Springsteen's his guitarist.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, okay.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean who knows?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: It could be a trickle that turns into some kind of Well, that was some of the that's what people said, like Spotify probably aren't gonna care at this stage.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: But there's if a if a uh well earlier on I said if a Beyonce turned round and I was actually one of the Beyoncés turned around.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: If a Beyonce Beyonce the many Beyoncés, um I was reprimanded because I was told that apparently Beyonce is like twenty years ago, you know, is not the thing.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, I said, well maybe Ed Sheeran.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: And again I was told that Noah But then I looked it up and Ed Sheeran is the top streamed artist.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, I felt vindicated.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um but anyway, the point was what if a big artist like that said they go?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: But the difference I think between um so some people say th th this whole kind of thing about what kind of things you have on your site.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's been a thing of Facebook and Twitter and social media.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: The difference, I suppose, between Facebook and Twitter and those things is that they will say, Well, we're not publishers, right?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so we don't necessarily have control over what these people say or do or whatever.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Which is a bit of a cop-out.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it is a cop out.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely a cop-out.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: The difference here with Spotify between a Joe Rogan and a Neil Young is that Neil Young just puts his stuff on Spotify and but you know, it's there, it's fine.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: He sends his cassettes in, sends the cassette tape in a wax cylinder, they do it all.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um But the Joe Rogan experience is actually exclusive to Spotify.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: They paid him a hundred million dollars to be on their platform and their platform only and to make his show.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: So they are publishers of that.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a slightly different thing that they are putting this forward.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So Because it's as though Joe Rogan because it's his guests.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's the guests that Joe Rogan has on.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, two but two in particular that have caused the thing.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: There were two particular episodes that came up where he had on guests uh a doctor Peter McCulloch and Robert Malone.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um Peter McCulloch's cardiologist.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: So this is from this is uh from Rogan's response uh in a video he put on Instagram.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he said Peter McCulloch is a cardiologist and the most published physician uh physician in his field in history.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Robert Malone owns nine patents on the creation of the mRNA vaccine technology and is at least partially responsible for the creation of the technology that led to those vaccines.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um he goes on to say that both are very highly credentialed, um, and but they have an opinion that differs from the mainstream narrative, and he wanted to hear their opinions.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um he said it's those episodes that ended up being labelled as dangerous misinformation.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: And he said this the problem I have with dangerous misinformation, especially today, is that many of the things we thought of as misinformation just a short while ago are now accepted as fact.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like eight months ago, if you said you can get vaccinated but can still contract and spread COVID, you would have been removed from social media and banned from certain platforms.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: Now that's accepted as fact.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: And he says similar thing about cloth masks, you know, said they didn't work.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Actually now people do kind of some people are saying that at least.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um or if you said COVID nineteen came from a lab, initially people said, Oh, that's just a very racist thing to say, but actually tables have turned and people are like, that sounds like a more plausible explanation.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: So he said all of those theories at one point in time were banned uh that were banned, were openly discussed by these two men that I had on my podcast who'd been who've been accused of dangerous misinformation.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: I do not know if they're right because I'm not a doctor or a scientist.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just a person who sits down with people and has conversations with them.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: Have I got things wrong before?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I try to correct things if I have done, because I'm interested in telling the truth and finding out what it is.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm interested in having interesting conversations with people who have different opinions.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not interested sorry, I'm not interested in only talking to people that have one perspective.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's quite a remarkable guy, Joe Rogan, really.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he invented podcasts, right, for the first start.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: There weren't you know that might not be strongly.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: He is the most successful podcaster.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And could be dangerous misinformation.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um but he is clearly the most successful podcaster in a reasonably competitive market, let's say.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And part of the reason why he I think gets people upset is because he's not only a podcaster, he's also a colour commentator for the Ultimate Fighting Championship.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yep.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he looks like the kind of guy who should be the colour commentator for the Ultimate Fighting Championship because he's very sort of broad and stocky and got shaven head, and he looks like he's not really one for the books.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's not really one for the library, and he looks more like this guy's just gonna not know anything.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm all I've been impressed whenever I've watched his podcast, which I don't do or listen to his podcast, which I don't do too regularly, but where he is interviewing people who are incredibly bookish and you know professors and you know, people like Jordan Peterson and um people who who clearly are not going to be colour commentators for the United Ultimate Fighting Championship.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: He sticks with them for four hours of conversation.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: He has he is able to ask significantly insightful questions that allow those people to feel like they are in a place where they can go as deep as they need to go.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that is quite that's he's a remarkable man just from that perspective, because I'm not sure most of us could sit and have a conversation with someone for four hours and draw out everything or useful things that other people would want to listen to.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that in that sense he's quite remarkable.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's also amazing, isn't it, in in today's context where we can barely watch a video that's beyond five minutes, yeah, you know, that people will s want to listen to four hours of material.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's quite something.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's too certainly to his credit that he can engage on a variety of topics for that length of time, and has built up an audience doing that because it's it's not like he's doing a lot of the talking, let's be honest.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like he it's a back and forth to a degree, but he lets people talk on his show, and that's part of the reason why I think people enjoy listening to it.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he's an intriguing kind of character in that regard, and I suppose for Spotify to say, Well, we're gonna pay him because he's gonna bring in this great audience, and he's saying, Well, I'm just bringing on the guest I want to listen to, so there's sort of two steps removed from well, what was actually said on the podcast, and I think again, Neil Young's position on it, the Neil Young ultimatum, I he basically ended up trashing Spotify's uh quality of of sound output at some stage, so said, Oh, 95% of the sound is lost, is all rubbish.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: You sort of think, well, which is it?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Are you upset because you're taking a principled stand against COVID misinformation, or is it that Spotify is actually rubbish and we should all use different streaming platforms because you can't listen to your music properly on it?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And once you start adding extra things, your argument is actually you're losing power in your argument.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So from that point of view, I I think I think Neil Young is gonna come well, it well never he's come out well from this, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about Neil Young.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: And no one was talking about Neil Young last week.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: No one was or Jolie Mitchell.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or Jenny Mitchell in particular.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or Bruce Springsteen's guitarist.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Neil Neil Neil.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: But they're all being talked about now.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it may be in six months' time talking about them is no longer allowed.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So do it now.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: But whatever you say now, you can't say it with emphasis or real conviction because it might not be true in six months' time.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think is what Joe Rogan's argument is.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Which is a good argument.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good argument to say if you say these things, if you said these things then it would have been classified as misinformation because COVID's unfolding, right?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: The things that people are saying you know, we're going to go with this, it would be nice if they were prefaced with at the moment we thinking we think this is the situation.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of just this desperate, like, it's definitely this.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's like and once you once you know if you start to censor that other side as well, then immediately and just say no, you can't have that, yeah, immediately it just makes people kind of fortify their positions, doesn't it?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make anyone open to hearing oh maybe, oh maybe that is and that and that again that's part of the thing of the the the major challenge in public health in something like a pandemic has see obviously been the messaging.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: How do you convey the message in a clear way but also in a way that doesn't alienate anyone who doesn't already want to believe that that's true?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you continue to move that forward and have messaging that allows you to look after the health of the public, which is obviously what's involved?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um and once you've got to a situation where where Neil Young, you know, who was rocking in the free world, man, and he has to say me or Joe Rogan, you must decide.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just wonder if other artists had done that, what would have happened, you know.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like the Venga Boys, if they'd said you must choose Spotify, it's us or Rogan.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can't have both.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder what Spotify would have done then, Paul Feasy.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: What would they do?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: We still may see those days.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: Dark days.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: Dark days ahead, very dark days ahead.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Something happened this week.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: Something absolutely.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Something happened this week in the world of sports.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's uh a momentous occasion that we want to um draw your attention to.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you're not familiar with what's been going on this week, here's what happened this week in the world of sport.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: So there is uh what is his name again?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: I've forgotten his name.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Rafael.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Rafa.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Rafael.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: At the summit, as they said.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: Standing at the summit alone.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone else now you yeah.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Now you might wonder why we bring this up.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: Why we go to this?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, a few weeks ago we had a discussion about Novak Djokovic, and Nate here made some comments that I think it's worth revisiting.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Which I don't think needed any qualification.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've been vindicated, I think.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: We we shall see something.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: Here we are.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And for all the argument about, oh well, who was really the greatest?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Federer won all these, you know, at Wimbledon and Nadal won the French Open every single year.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: For all those, he's outshone them and out lasted them.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: He is the anvil, and they are the hammers that have been spent and and there's a we I think it's a conspiracy.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think Rapha Nadal and have worked together to to sabotage Djokovic.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's going on.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is the the truth will out.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, you'll see.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: You'll see what's going on here.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: And now we have seen the truth has will out.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I said what would happen.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why was why was Djokovic not going to be allowed to play?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because Nadal and his his his evil henchmen have been working in an international cabal to stop it happening.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you and did you see the message from Federa as well?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: He sent him a really nice message that said, I'm so proud of you, you're really good, you're good at that tennis, and well done.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: You you're a great competitor.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, yeah, Roger, that's it, isn't it?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Roger.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: We know we know what this all is.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: But when you said it, you know, some people were like, people move crazy, didn't they?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, some people said he's crazy.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: Others said we'll hear more on this.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: But here we are.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, down two sets as well in the final, and then he comes back against Daniel Medvedev, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: You've just won the US Open, having beaten Djokovic.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Ridiculous.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Twenty-one grand slams, and he's won multiple at each one of them.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them at the French Open, granted.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: But now two Australian Open titles for Underdale.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Can't argue with the facts in front of your eyes, can you?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, but I did also say that I thought at match point Djokovic is going to break into the Arthur Ash arena or whatever it is and with a steel chair.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But that didn't happen.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't get everything right for sure.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Speakeasy audience, but do my best.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well let us know, let us know what you think about all that down there in the comments.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, uh there we go.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: So actually Samuel Tunnycliffe has just said nah.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: But the uh the Nadarka Ball is still real though.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is like he won't be convinced.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: But he's also thinks it's real.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Convinced.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I like.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: So confusing all of this, isn't it?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's gonna come up later on as we go deeper into the truth and ask what is real and what is not.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: But wait for that in the final bit when we do the movie.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Don't jump in too soon, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um one thing we flagged up last week um was another video of ours that actually was, I think, released on Friday.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: And we showed you a little clip last week where it was Glenn interviewing Andrew Satch uh when they discussed his new book um called Agnostics, are you sure?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and Or did they?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm being very annoying.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: See what you did there very just in a slightly rascal mode.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: So that video is that video is out now.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: And you can watch it on our YouTube channel.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna pop a link down in the uh in the comments there for you to go and find that because it is worth looking at.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: And uh Andrew Sash is a great guy.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um he's written I think he's written a couple of books, hasn't he?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: He's done a couple of great books on uh understanding the Bible, digging deeper, some good And digging even deeper.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: And digging even deeper.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not the title.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: I've just made that up.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: No, it is dig even deeper.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: It is dig deeper, dig even deeper.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Wait for the third.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: What's that gonna be?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um Digging the Deepest.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Down, down, deeper and down right there.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um but we've someone already commented, someone's commented on that video uh from Friday, Dave GJ.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he said, Andrew is in the top five nicest people I've ever met.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: And with his brain, I'm so glad he's written this book.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's really easy read that makes lots of good points.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: So there you go, that's a great endorsement of the book.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've met Andrew as well, actually.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: I went skiing with him um a long time ago.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: But we're not like buddies or anything.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: Skiing skiing.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: It was like an Oak Hill.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Not Oak Hill, Oak Hall.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: I always get confused.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oak Hall skiing trip.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: And they always have a speaker, and he was the speaker back in like 2007.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we went to Switzerland on a coach for like took like a day.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, he was the speaker.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: He was very good.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: So nice guy.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: Is he a good skier?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: No well, he's not a good skier because he I think he did a day and decided it wasn't really for him.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh and so he he stayed with uh because unfortunately on the first day there was a lady uh kind of We're getting right into the heart of the Andrew Satch's skiing ability.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Satch's skiing ability.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but this lady on the first day, she fell over on the nursery slopes and broke her hip.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I think Andrew spent a bit of time with her.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um as well as just with those who were less inclined.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, one of my friends was there and she was pregnant, so she didn't want to ski, so she did a lot of walking.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there was a group who walked as well.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you did more of that.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I want to know more about this.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Ask more than that.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've got some videos and photos I can share.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: More about your skiing ability.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Are you a skier or a s or a snowboarder?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: I've never snowboarded as a skier.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: I've only been twice, and the last time I went was like 2007, so it's been a while.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: But um But when we went into that place in Switzerland, you know, you know, uh there's the uh in On Her Majesty's Secret Service, they filmed at this big revolving restaurant at the top of a mountain that you can only get to by cable car.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's in Switzerland, and we went there, skied down the old black run there.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you ski down a black run?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're not bad then.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I might have fallen down some.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: I went on a rival ski, Christian ski holiday week.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: Other other ski holidays are available.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I was I was speaking at one and I snow I did snowboarding.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I thought, oh, what'd be cooler for snowboarders?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a very good friend who helped me down the slopes, was very patient, and I was terrible.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was absolutely rubbish, far too tall.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that's my excuse, but yeah.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: But it is quite hard, I think, for snowboarding from what I hear.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should have a skiing competition for the speakeasy.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: That'd be good, wouldn't it?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Next week in here.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: Next week.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because the Winter Olympics is coming up.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have to, yeah, we've gonna we'll talk about the greats, like Sean White, the snowboard half pipe guy.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's like on his and the other one.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Eddie the Eagle, Edwards, and the curling will be on.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be it's gonna be interesting.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, actually, the um the secondary school in my town has a quite a a big curling team.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: They're like uh curling champions or something for Sussex, I don't know.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: Good.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we're speaking far too easily.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: We're getting right into it now, into the deep stuff.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, last week when uh Glenn and I here, we were talking talked about vaccine mandates.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh vaccine mandates, Christian love, Christian freedom, and with Glenn off the back of Glenn's tweet about being anti-vex.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: And uh a few people commented on that.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um Glenn kind of said, I think at one point, I think this is what prompted this uh comment.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Glenn had said, you know, sometimes it's good to get outside of our echo chamber.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think perhaps some people took it as it was pointed more at the side who are perhaps vaccine hesitant or against it.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um so we did have a comment.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: Someone said to us, you know, if you guys are as young and healthy as you look and got three vaccines, then you might want to look at your own echo chamber.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Just saying.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um sorry, you guys are as healthy as you look.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you had three three vaccines.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Three jabs, whatever it is.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: You might want to look at your own echo chamber.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I think what they're insinuating is like you guys have just fallen hook line and sink.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Look, you're young and you're healthy.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's nice to be considered young and healthy.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Good for you, man.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, quite pleased with it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um But so why surely looking at the your own echo chamber is the problem with an echo chamber.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Go on.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because is it's an echo chamber, so it's sort of looking in.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need to look outside the echo chamber.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's probably I'm sure that's what they meant.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe so, maybe so.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: But uh yeah, you know, so it was uh it was obviously uh there were some other comments as well.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think one obviously the whole thing was about our position should be anti-vex, vexatious.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think some people instantly decided what side they were on and got quite vexed in the comment section.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, maybe watch it again and I don't think we can ask Anna to do that again, can we?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um but we did have a comment on last week's video, which was actually I think this might be the nicest comment we've ever had on anything.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: This from Pia.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm intrigued.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: And she said she addressed it to me, but really it's to all of us.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: She said, Paul, you've been asking for feedback on the podcast.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a longtime listener, if a few years is a long time.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: I absolutely love the show.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's my number one favourite podcast, even beating out my favourite author's podcast, Tim Keller.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: In your face, Keller.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Is Tim Keller got a podcast?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: He does a bit of twit tweeting, doesn't he?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't know about anyway.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, he says, I like uh this uh uh Pia says, I honestly feel like I'm sitting down with three friends, Paul, Glenn, and now Nate as well.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Here are all the things I love about the podcast.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: This sounds very like, aren't we great?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like that, but yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: I love your camera.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: I love that you talk about current events, even ones involving um England.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um Prescott, Arizona.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: You help me think about current events from a Christian mindset, which is challenging me.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: You make me laugh, good medicine indeed.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not much of a movie buff, but I still enjoy the movie segment as it models critical thinking for me and again makes me laugh.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: I honestly think you all could spend a podcast talking about cooking spaghetti and I would enjoy it.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: So watch out for that one next week.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: Spaghetti coming next.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: One difficulty I sometimes have is with the accents of guests with British and Australian accents other than your own.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: So we're okay, it's everyone else that's a problem, basically.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've always thought that.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: On another note, yeah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: I've thought about applying to the foundry, but I don't suppose you would have much use for a 62-year-old woman who doesn't have any creative art skills.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: But perhaps you could use a mum around the place for a while to keep it clean, make sure you eat healthy food and get your rest.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: God bless.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: What a lovely comment.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: It is nice.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and actually, it doesn't matter if you're 62.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: There's no age limit on the foundry, there's no age limit.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you've not got any creative skills, that maybe I don't know that I believe uh that she's maybe creative.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think she's everyone's creative in some way, aren't they?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at some level they have to be, because we're made in the image of the creator.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you go.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Pia, if you are ever here, if you are ever over, you leave Prescott, Arizona and come to the UK, make it down to Eastbourne, and we'll you can come down, we'll make you a cup of tea, give you some nice healthy food.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to do it for us, but uh yeah, we'd love to see you.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: So great.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um let's dive into the chat.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see, um has anyone been saying anything about what we've talked about today?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, actually.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: Going back to um Neil Young, so Wendy Lomart chipping um Wendy, yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: Good old Wendy says it's always baffling to see an artist champion censorship.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then she did went on to say none of these artists protested R.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: Kelly on Spotify, who was found guilty of sex trafficking and sex with minors.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: And that's interesting, isn't it?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think I mean it it it is an odd one, isn't it?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you choose the battles you choose?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I mean, I I know everyone still says, Oh, this is what a battery, as soon as you bring up any other sort of topic.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um there is the challenge if your aim is is the preservation of your own purity and integrity, then you kind of set yourself up for but hold on, didn't you also do this?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Which doesn't mean you're wrong on the thing you're talking about, but it just means you know you've you've stepped into a conversation, stepped into the firing line, and yeah, as as as Wendy says, what level I suppose like as you were saying, Spotify have paid Joe Rogan, inventor of the podcast.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um they've paid him a hundred million for the exclusive rights, whereas R.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Kelly's music and other artists with outrageous, you know, personal lives are presumably just being hosted at some point.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: But again, you know, it's not exactly the you know a problem, is it?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean this could come up in the you know Winter Olympics thing, isn't it?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: How many people are kicking up a fuss about the Winter Olympics being held in China based upon you know the treatment of Uyghur Muslims and who's ready to go with that and and the issues around the Australian Open.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there's a Chinese tennis player who there were major concerns about her well-being and whereabouts towards the end of last year.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure that those things have been entirely resolved.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think still big questions around that.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate claims that people can make about of what about her, but um if it's integrity, it's integrity.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a big thing.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: This conversation went out live on our YouTube channel.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can watch it and all our other conversations at youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're on the other social media platforms, just search for Speak Life UK.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: That will keep you posted.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: And why not join us when we next go live?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: You can also email comments and questions to info at speaklife.org.uk.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: SpeakLife is supported entirely by the generosity of people like you, especially through your prayers.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: If you'd like to contribute financially, regular or one-off donations are much appreciated, and you can do that at speaklife.org.uk forward slash give.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: If you make any donation, whether big or small, you'll also get exclusive access to our Discord server.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get back to the podcast.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, keep those thoughts coming, keep putting them down in the chat, and if you're watching this afterwards, do uh comment down below as well.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh each week we've been running a segment at the tail end of the show where we've been looking at a film and thinking about what we can take from it and kind of having a bit of a discussion.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it seems people have been enjoying this conversation.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Sam James on email, he said, I wanted to ask a question about Nate.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: When did he start analysing films?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: All of your insights have been really helpful, but Nate seems to talk about films like their siblings or something.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: Never heard someone pick apart stories and characters so fluently.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: So when did you start?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think also kind of what you want us to know is a little bit about kind of how on earth do you do this like I was orphaned as a child and raised by a blockbuster video store, and that's what happened.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh none of us can uh choose the handwritten dealt, but for me, uh it was certainly being raised.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not true.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose I have no idea I ne I don't know how to answer this question because I'm not sure that I can say, Oh, here's three questions I ask of every film, yeah, because I don't.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or here's like the technique I use to kind of try to work out what's going on in a film because I I kind of want the film to show itself rather than coming with some kind of set of categories I'm going to impose upon it.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I suppose that's a conviction that allows each film to be understood on its own merits, each story to kind of be understood on its own terms.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then the conviction that you know um the Bible is true and we live within the truth of the Bible, and therefore everything can be understood in regard to what God has revealed of Himself in Scripture and obviously in coming to worth in Christ.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so because I have those two convictions that stories are valuable and meaningful and ought to be taken seriously, and that the real truth is that you know, from Genesis to Revelation, and we we sit inside that, I'm always looking for parallels because I'm expecting to find them.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm expecting to find a correspondence between the two things.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um But yeah, I mean that's probably the only way I can sort of but there's I don't some people do have, you know, like we sit down with our I I mean I the other thing to say is I do the popcorn parenting podcast with uh sitcom writer James Carey, friend of the Speakeasy.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we've done that for a couple of years where we need to do some more episodes on it.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I don't lots of people have got in touch and said, When I sit with my kids, I have this worksheet and it's got these four questions for the kids to ask of the of the pat of the film, and that I use that as the basis for a conversation.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that works for you and great and good for you, but that's not how I'm thinking about it when I'm watching a film.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um I know like someone like Ted Turno, yeah.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: Turnow, who apologetics engaging kind of with populture stuff.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think he has a kind of I'm not sure the details, but I I think he he has a kind of rough framework of something like, you know, what's the thing as I watch this?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: Where's the good stuff?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what's the good kind of thing that correlates with the gospel stuff, what's the distortion of that, you know?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I and I think sometimes stuff just leaps out at you, doesn't it?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you're not really sitting there particularly thinking about analysing what you're watching.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but sometimes something is just very obvious, you watch it and you go, Well, that's complete antithesis or what idea or whatever.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Other times, you know, maybe it's a bit more of a concerted and I think if you take the the film seriously or the story seriously, and you take storytelling and filmmaking seriously, then you're not only thinking what is the basic story here, but also how is it being told and why is it being told in the way that it's being told, and just thinking about it, reflecting on it, talking to other people about it.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um sometimes I'll write sort of notes up on something because I want to kind of try to navigate it.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: So all that to say, no idea.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: You can't teach this.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I probably who knows if it will continue.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: There is no needs to be seen.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh last week uh Bianca Hopcraft, we we talked about the tante Mr.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: Ripley.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: Bianca Hopcraft commented, she said she'd also seen the film and she said she found the whole thing agonizing.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um but she said it reminded her of a quote uh by Tim Keller, which I think I've got a um screenshot of here.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she said uh to be uh Keller says to be loved but not known is comforting but superficial.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: To be known and not loved is our greatest fear.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: But to be fully known and truly loved is well, a lot like being loved by God.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's what we need more than anything.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: It liberates us from pretense, humbles us out of our self-righteousness, and fortifies us for any difficulty life can throw at us.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I thought that was a a really good quote that kind of tied in well with the stuff we talked about last week um about the tangent, Mr.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: Ripley.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good line.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um so worth yeah, worth going if you've not seen it, worth going and having a look at it.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: It is it's a bit of a hard watch, but um it is worth a look.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um so we're talking about another film today.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think we've already said it is a film called The Game.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: The Game from 1997.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: Tell us a bit about this film.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: I've not seen the film.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: You've not?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you refuse to tell me.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: I won't tell you the ending and I've been intrigued.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I I'm not gonna give the ending away.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it does involve a few kind of plot points that uh will be a bit redundant if you um have seen the film.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sorry, if you haven't seen the film, they will sort of spoil that storytelling experience for you.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if you do not want to know the results, look away now.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Go and watch the film, find it somewhere, and then return to the Speakeasy video or the podcast when you're uh suitably prepared to hear um some analysis of it.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, it is a film directed by David Fincher, who is well known for other things like Gone Girl or uh Fight Club.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's thrillers that he's really good at and um really drawing out a story and pulling you in as an audience and shaking you about and leaving you sort of feeling a bit kind of exhausted by the end of it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um like these discussions much like every episode of The Speakeasy.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I should say the connection between the film.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: So the rules for this are that there has to be a connection, whether it's cast or crew, between the previous film discussed and the next film discussed.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so m my connection between Talented Mr.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Ripley and the game is an actor named James Rebhorn who plays uh Jude Law's dad in the Talented Mr.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Ripley.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: What's the family called?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Green something Greenleaf.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: Greenleaf, so he plays the Greenleaf to Dickie Greenleaf.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he uh plays a character called Jim Feingold in the uh the game, and so that's the connection.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: The other point for picking these films is they all have to be over ten years old.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the film is about uh a character named Nicholas Van Orten, played by Michael Douglas, brilliant thriller, actor, and he um is a very, very wealthy man.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: He's an investment banker, he lives in a great big mansion in just outside San Francisco, he drives a great car, um wears the best suits, he's got this penthouse sort of office in the centre of town, and it is his forty-eighth birthday, and he goes to meet his brother, uh who is called Conrad Van Elton, goes to meet him for lunch and um at this posh restaurant, and the question is asked by Conrad Um, what do you get for the man who has everything?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And given that he is a man who not only has everything but is in control of everything he is involved with because he's so wealthy and powerful, what can you give that man which will genuinely be a gift?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Something that he wouldn't otherwise have.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so he gives him this birthday card with a little uh business card in it says C R S and it's something recreation services and it's an invitation to play a game, and so but the the key thing with this is that no one reveals any of the information about what the kind of game it is at any point.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the the the film begins with uh with Nicholas Van Alten wondering what is this thing, and he's like, Will you just explain what's going on?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually he overhears some friend some guys at the country club um uh talking about it and sits down, like, what is this thing?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: What is like you've talked about it, just tell me what it is.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Ah.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: John 9, 25.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And Nicholas Van Alt is like, What what do you mean?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have not been to the Sunday school for a long time.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Says, once I was blind, but now I see.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: He stands up and walks off.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, Well, go on, what does that mean?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: What what is and and so there's this very strange situation at the start of the film where nothing's really being revealed, but it's enough to make Nicholas Van Alten really intrigued and want to know more.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh eventually spots assigned for this organization in this office building, goes up to the 14th floor to find out about them, and that's where he meets James Rebhorn, who is the connection between this and and talented Mr.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ripley.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, uh he then has to do a full day of psychometric tests and questionnaires and medical things and all this sort of stuff, so they get masses and masses of information about him, and therefore they're going to be able to give him a very a tailored experience, which is a game purposefully worked out just for him, given who he is and his situation.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now bear in mind he's a control freak.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: He's sovereign over all he surveys.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: He is wealthy, can pay for anything he needs, it's all under his control.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this game basically puts him in a complete point of vulnerability.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't know what's going on, he doesn't want to know what's going to happen next, he doesn't know what he can trust, he doesn't know anything.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so the wonderful thing about the the film and I think the reason why it it it's such a Compelling story is that you are watching him try to find out something else.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: What's what can I trust?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: What can I rely on?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it got me thinking, why is that so compelling to not be told the answer to your question?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it felt like a kind of Gnostic evangelism where rather than starting out with, you know, Jesus is Lord, repent and believe the good news.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not like here's as much as we can tell you.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like here's a tiny little bit that will make you intrigued and want to know more.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it it it is interesting, particularly for people who are used to having everything laid out before them.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: They are masters of all that they survey.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not knowing things becomes really interesting like hold on.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on there?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and the intentional withholding of information from him is the very thing that draws him in more than ever, and then ultimately breaks him.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the film's about breaking this person and turning him into something else.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's it's a great film.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think it raises massive questions about the nature of sovereignty and what you can control and what you can trust and how you can draw someone in with a little bit of information.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think we should do a Gnostic evangelism okay.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: But storytelling-wise, that's what you have to do.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you're telling a story, you don't give everyone all the information at the beginning of the story and then say, and here's the story.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you can, but that feels like a it's more like a fable than like I'm going to tell you a story that teaches you this.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: You sometimes get a story that says this is a story, you know, at the beginning, this is a story of how I died, or something like that.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is that or like the the f the f freeze flat frame and they're like, You're probably wondering how I got here.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the whole thing told in flashback.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you can you can do that, it's a it's a plot it's a storytelling device and it can be really helpful.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: But there is something that about the telling of a story that demands that you want to know what happens next, and that you're more interested and more invested in the story by not knowing certain things until a certain point.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what will keep you going.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because if it's told well, you will care what happens next.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: You will want a certain result to be what happens rather than something else.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think from from that point of view, um I don't think it's David Fincher's best film, um, but it was one I could get to from Times of Mr.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Ripley, so I thought I'd take the chance to do it.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, uh we we said earlier, didn't we, that um we maybe don't think that's a great idea for evangelism.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, let's just we keep we've got the secret knowledge, yes, and we'll tease it out to you.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: But one day you might know.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, that is very similar to how something like a a Scientologist might yeah, Scientology might work, isn't it?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: That there is this knowledge, there is the next station up and you have to do something until you get there.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: And um so you can see how it it does entice people in in that way.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: But uh yeah.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well I'm hopefully I'll get a chance to check it out because uh when you were telling me about the uh telling about me about the film earlier, I was like, oh it does sound quite good.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it I think it really is good.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the end, I mean, you know, I watched it with Pete Um and just he was in like physically uncomfortable at the end of the film because he was like, What did that just do to me?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it was yeah, I think it's yeah, in terms of a great sort of ending.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just yeah, really good.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well maybe check it out.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think Wendy Lomont, I she said a great movie.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: I presume she was talking about this one and not Fancy Mr.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: Ripley.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um so clearly I think Wendy's seen it.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if anyone else has, but um yeah, do go and check it out.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um hopefully we'll do another film next week.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um but we kind of said earlier, as we think about this, that we've we've been round one, so they're glar uh names are the next year.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and we wondered whether next week maybe you guys could choose the film.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Now, what we haven't thought about is does it still have to follow the rules we set?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it has to be.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: We did get some people saying I've had two people this week say, Why are they all boys' films?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a very strange comment.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they suggested these were both females, they said legally blonde and dirty dancing.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: Which and to be fair, if I was watching like my wife wanted to come and watch uh the game, I said, No, you're not it's a boys' film.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: No girls allowed to watch this film.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Boys only.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's the rules.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: So we need we want something that's gonna even it out, do we?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: So No, we don't but we do want the rule.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: The rules of the game are that it has to have a link with this film.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: This film somehow.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be James.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be James Rebhorn.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've just done him, because I'm gonna go.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: It could be another Michael Douglas film, could be another David Finch film, or anyone you can find in the cast list.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: Sean Penn.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: Sean Penn.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: Has to be over ten years old, though.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's got to be over ten years old.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then we'll we'll have a look at it.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_03: So if you want legally blonde and dirty dancing, you've got to find a link now to get you what's the shortest possible in the comments.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a game in itself.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_03: How many steps to get from the game to dirty dancing or legally blonde?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: Either or I'm happy to go with either.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: So people on IMDB right now trying to solve that.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: Get it done.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: Let us know some of your thoughts on um Joe Rogan, Neil Young.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: You can email us into infospeaklife.org.uk.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but now we've got a bit of bonus content for you here on the podcast.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's the final musings.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is bonus content exclusive here to the podcast, where Thomas and I uh discuss sometimes we may just discuss in more depth something that's come up in the show, or we may just discuss something that has come up um we've talked about during the week um that we hope might be of interest.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: So um today we're talking about time travel.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: We were talking about films, then we got onto Harry Potter from the the line that Dumbledore says in the fourth one Did you put your name in the goblet of fire?
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: He said calmly.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: In the books he says it calmly, in the film Nud So Calmly.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then we talked about The Cursed Child, which was the book set after uh The Deathly Hallows uh with you know Harry's kids.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um we talked about how we struggled with that because it kind of It breaks the rules.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: It breaks the w rules of time travel that are set up in the Harry Potter universe in the third book.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: Which got us onto a conversation, here we are, about I think Max said something like Um It's to do with that kind of free will idea of whether we have free will or things are set out.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: And that kind of got into a conversation, therefore, about um predestination.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and and a part of my my question around the my my concerns around when we talk about free will is that we often use it in the sense of you are free to choose whatever.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think the Bible actually teaches that.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think it teaches that we have an agency and obviously we have a responsibility, and there is this there is this tension between God's election and our sort of responsibility for what we do.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I don't think we have an absolute free will because the Bible seems to talk about us more as being people who are bound um, you know, and and by kind of sin and constrained by it.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: So we we are free to choose in the sense that uh you know an alcoholic is free to choose wine or beer or spirits.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: But actually, there's still an enslavement there to something.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: There's still, you know, there is a kind of choice there, but there's also it's not a free thing.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: That question about whether do you, you know, do you choose to become a Christian or whatnot, uh an illustration people used to use a lot and probably still gets used is the idea of you know you're out in the middle of the sea and you're gonna drown, and then the boat comes along and it throws you the life ring, and you need to, you know, they've done the work, but you need to take hold of the life ring and cling on to be saved.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: And people and people would say that's what it's like with Jesus, Jesus has done the work for you, and you need to make a decision and stuff.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um and there's a truth in that, there's some elements of truth in that, but uh I wondered later on I I started using the illustration more where um the boat's in the water um and it finds you, but you're face down, you're not breathing, you're dead and you're bloated, and your body's already on the way out, quite frankly, you know.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um and they pull you out of the water and they give you CPR and put life into you.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: Now, at no point in that thing are you, you know, when you start breathing again and you receive that life into you, it's not because you decided to receive CPR from someone or you decided to start taking breaths again or come back to life.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I've always and I think for me that it's that side for me which is the slightly stronger picture of what's happening in salvation, um, that it's coming from outside us.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: But yet I I can see as well in scripture that it at least it feels to us like we are making a decision to follow Jesus.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think there's a tension there, and I'm not sure quite how to reconcile those two things.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, sorry, you were gonna say something.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's really helpful.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: So our propensity to sin, we can't help.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: We are we are born in Adam, it's our fallen nature.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: We are still responsible for our individual sins, God won't give us, uh won't allow us to experience more temptation than we can bear.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that that tension I'm kind of comfortable with.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: And as you say, I think scripture does seem to support the the perhaps what you'd label as a Calvinist idea that God has, you know, we are dead, there's nothing we can do, and God has decided to save us.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: I would say if you are sitting there thinking, I want to be a Christian, and I I'm looking at Jesus and I'm reading about Jesus, and I'm like, I love this Jesus and I think he's the saviour, you would not be thinking that unless God had moved your heart to, you know, the Spirit had moved your heart to open your eyes to see who Jesus is and therefore accept him.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that is a sign of it.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um I mean, one of the things you mentioned as well that people struggle with is the idea of if people are elect, then by either just simply by the fact that some are elect, others are, therefore not.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um and there's debate, you know, there has been debate by certain people about, you know, is it that God chooses some people and therefore just by default other people are not saved, or does God choose who is saved and choose who is not saved?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it kind of works out the same in the end anyway, but um and I think there are difficulties around that.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think we talked a bit earlier about Romans 9 and vessels, you know, made for destruction and stuff, objects of wrath.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and th those are really hard passages.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know, just in all of this, it's it's just helpful for us to remember, isn't it, that like whatever the answer is, we know uh to how this works.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_03: We know that the one who makes these decisions and orders these things, we know God's character.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so that actually God will work things together for good.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: God is not going to be doing things which are cruel or unkind or unjust, and on that final day as well, no one will be able to say, no one will be able to point at the Lord and say, Well, that's not fair.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and we'll see that as it is.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I think even though we can't understand the ins and outs of it, and it may we may find bits troubling, I think what's helpful for us is to go back to just the character of Jesus and you know, who's our window on God.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this has been uh a bit of a mind-bender, but a fun discussion.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's our second serious conversation every well, that's what we want to do with this final section.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: We want to have a conversation that's you know pretty uh pretty kind of I was gonna say lighthearted.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't particularly light-hearted, but um we want to give you something that's a little bit different to what was in the podcast, um and uh is a bit of sort of bonus content, but we hope you can chip in as well.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, as you're sending in your thoughts on the speakeasy, why not send in some thoughts on this as well?
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: You've maybe got thoughts on um predestination.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: You may think we've got it all wrong.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um and we've made some terrible things.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: Wouldn't be the first time.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_03: It wouldn't be the first time.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: We do get things wrong.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um and thanks for sending in emails.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: We actually had so many that we can't read them all out on this show, but some great encouragements and really helpful feedback.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: So as you've noticed from next episode, the intro and middle bit that we do is now much more concise because you want to get straight in with the conversation.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then if you are willing to stick around at the end for some final musings, if you do enjoy me and Paul having a bit of a waffle, yeah, then you can.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um so hopefully you like this new format and uh more feedback, welcome.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Paul, uh, I think it's time for lunch.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely yes, I definitely think it's time for lunch.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening, guys.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: Goodbye.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: Take care, bye-bye.