Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 410: Fighting for the Future of Hunting with Clay Newcomb

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Ep. 410: Fighting for the Future of Hunting with Clay Newcomb · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,
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  Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm
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  Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number four
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  Speaker 1: ten in. Today in the show, I'm joined by Clay
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  Speaker 1: Newcomb to discuss the murky future of hunting in America
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  Speaker 1: and actionable ways to ensure that this lifestyle and pursuit
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  Speaker 1: is around for many generations to come. All right, welcome
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  Speaker 1: to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by
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  Speaker 1: on X. Today in the show, I am joined by mediator, contributor,
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  Speaker 1: bow Hunter, mule Rider, Coon, dog runner, and general outdoors
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  Speaker 1: and extraordinaire Clay Newcomb, and we're here for a damn
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  Speaker 1: good chat. We're talking today about the future are of
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  Speaker 1: hunting and some very real risks to that future. You see,
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  Speaker 1: there are people out there and organizations and forces that
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  Speaker 1: would see, you know, they'd see our way of life
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  Speaker 1: and our hunting pursuits relegated to the past, something that
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  Speaker 1: used to happen but doesn't anymore. And there's a lot
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  Speaker 1: of reasons for this. There's a lot of motivations. But
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  Speaker 1: whether we like it or not, whether we want to
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  Speaker 1: think about it or not, it's a reality. And the
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  Speaker 1: thing is, if if we as a hunting community don't
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  Speaker 1: stay abreast of this and we don't do something about
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  Speaker 1: it when called upon, it's it's honestly not out of
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  Speaker 1: the question that the hunting privilege we enjoy today might
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  Speaker 1: not be around for our kids or our grandkids and
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  Speaker 1: so on. So Clay and I today are going to
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  Speaker 1: dive into some of these issues and some of these
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  Speaker 1: topics related to because the ways that we can help
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  Speaker 1: ensure the future of hunting they're not always clear cut.
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  Speaker 1: It's not like there's just one clear, one size fits
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  Speaker 1: all answers, not like, hey, if all hunters do X
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  Speaker 1: and we all do the exact same way, it's all
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  Speaker 1: gonna be just fine. It's it's a little bit more
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  Speaker 1: complicated than that. And that's why this, this whole topic
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  Speaker 1: is has been interesting. Really, it's been interesting for me personally,
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  Speaker 1: have wrestled with a lot of questions on it, and
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  Speaker 1: it's nice that in this case I was finally able
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  Speaker 1: to lay some of those questions out there and bounce
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  Speaker 1: them around with someone else who's been thinking about this too.
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  Speaker 1: Things like you know, how can we band together and
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  Speaker 1: support our fellow hunters, even if we do it in
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  Speaker 1: different ways. You know, this whole we're all in the
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  Speaker 1: same boat thing, But also how can we ensure that
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  Speaker 1: no one's punching holes in that boat and sinking the
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  Speaker 1: whole thing. We talk about ways to handle questions and
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  Speaker 1: controversies around things, maybe like predator hunting that maybe aren't
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  Speaker 1: things that we personally participated, but can still impact the
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  Speaker 1: future of deer hunting. They like, And that's just one example. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: what about stuff related to you know, the whole public
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  Speaker 1: relations of hunting, the whole pr battle. Why is that important?
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  Speaker 1: And the role that each one of us can play
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  Speaker 1: on that front. So that's the plan. I won't belabor
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  Speaker 1: it too much here on the front end, but this,
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  Speaker 1: this honestly was one of the more engaging and interesting
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  Speaker 1: conversations I've had in a while. I really enjoyed it,
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  Speaker 1: and I think you will too. So with that, thanks
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  Speaker 1: for listening, and let's get to the show all right
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  Speaker 1: with me? Now on the line is Clay Newcomb. Clay,
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  Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. Hey, Mark, great to be
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  Speaker 1: here on the Wire to Hunt podcast for sure. Hey,
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  Speaker 1: I'm glad to have you. It's uh, well, what I
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: guess since the last time you were on the show,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: things have changed quite substantially for you because since then,
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  Speaker 1: which I think was last spring sometime, uh, you've officially
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  Speaker 1: joined the media team, so publicly welcome to the crew,
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  Speaker 1: my friend. Yeah, thanks Mark. Yeah, you're right. Last time
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  Speaker 1: I was on the podcast, I was. I was not
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  Speaker 1: a Meat Eater team member. Now I am, and since
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  Speaker 1: that time, you and I have gotten to know each
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  Speaker 1: other better, and uh, yeah I was. I was hired
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  Speaker 1: with me that you're back in October early October, so
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  Speaker 1: you know, coming on I guess six months or so,
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  Speaker 1: and it's been incredible so far. Yeah. So for people
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  Speaker 1: that maybe don't know what what are you doing? What
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: do you do for us? Now? So? So, I'm a
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  Speaker 1: content creator for meat Eater, which would be similar Mark,
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  Speaker 1: really to what you do. I guess I'm not sure
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  Speaker 1: your exact title, but uh, I don't know what my
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  Speaker 1: title is either. Man, You're just Mark Kenyon. Um. So
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  Speaker 1: what I do currently is I, uh, you'll see content
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  Speaker 1: produced from me on a monthly basis, multiple times per month,
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  Speaker 1: where I'm making videos of writing articles for meat Eater
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  Speaker 1: number one, number two that This is no secret, but
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  Speaker 1: we've kind of held it back because we've we've we
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  Speaker 1: haven't launched it yet, but but I'm gonna be doing
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  Speaker 1: a a podcast four Meat Eater that will become a
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: podcast in Meat Eater suite of podcast which you know,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Wired to Hunt is one of those podcasts that's in
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: the Meat Eater family. So at some point this spring
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  Speaker 1: soon I will will be launching a totally new podcast,
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  Speaker 1: which I'm very excited about. And we can talk about
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  Speaker 1: that more later, Mark, But so I'm gonna be making
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  Speaker 1: a podcast, making content and just contributing to the whole
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  Speaker 1: Meat Eater mission. You know. Uh, I was able to
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  Speaker 1: hunt with Steve and the guys last spring in Montana,
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  Speaker 1: so you know there's some I'll be on some Meteor
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  Speaker 1: episodes and uh and uh just just like all the
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: team members at different times were on the Meteor podcast,
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  Speaker 1: but just in general doing whatever Metator needs and making
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  Speaker 1: some great content, trying to educate people, trying to have fun.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah we're doing uh so far, so good man. I've
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  Speaker 1: I've enjoyed everything you've put out there, and it's it's
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  Speaker 1: it's great to have you in the fold. And and
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  Speaker 1: obviously a lot of exciting stuff coming down the line.
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  Speaker 1: So um, I'm just glad to have you, Glad to
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  Speaker 1: have you here, buddy, and uh and what what I
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  Speaker 1: want to talk about today, I think is a big
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  Speaker 1: part of the reason why you're such a great fit
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  Speaker 1: for our team here, mediator, because you've done a better
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  Speaker 1: job than than most I think in and kind of
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to say preaching, because there's some maybe
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  Speaker 1: there's a negative connotation if in a certain way there.
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  Speaker 1: But but you've been you've been speaking the good word
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  Speaker 1: on an important issue that I think sometimes we hear
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  Speaker 1: in the white tail honey community can overlook It's it's
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  Speaker 1: easy for even myself personally. I'm so deep into the
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  Speaker 1: white tail thing. I eat, sleep, and breathe this thing.
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  Speaker 1: Almost every day I'm thinking about it. It's easy to
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  Speaker 1: get tunnel vision and to just think dear, dear, dear,
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  Speaker 1: um and not to pay attention to things that go
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  Speaker 1: outside of that. So I have to constantly remind myself,
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  Speaker 1: kind of knock myself on the side of the head
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  Speaker 1: and say, hey, make sure you're paying attention to this
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  Speaker 1: thing that's going on on the West coast or this
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  Speaker 1: thing that's happening with this critter or that fish or
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  Speaker 1: this type of land, because because I do think all
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  Speaker 1: of these things do come back and impact us as hunters,
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  Speaker 1: regardless of what species you hunt. And so that's that's
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  Speaker 1: what I want to get into here with you. And
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  Speaker 1: you've you've popular I don't I don't know if you
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  Speaker 1: coined this yourself, but I think you did this idea
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  Speaker 1: of guarding the gate. Can you can you tell me
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  Speaker 1: what that means? We we covered this a little bit
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  Speaker 1: a year ago when you refer to the show, but
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  Speaker 1: I want to really expand on it. What's this whole
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  Speaker 1: guarding the gate thing? So I think I think we'll
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  Speaker 1: take a step back from that phrase and we'll get
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  Speaker 1: to it. And and I kind of want to set
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  Speaker 1: the context for the question that we would all have.
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  Speaker 1: That I would have is that why would a why
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  Speaker 1: would a white tail hunter care about the broader issues
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  Speaker 1: of North American hunting? And I think we've all got
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  Speaker 1: to view because well, first of all, there are many
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  Speaker 1: parts of the North American hunting model that are insignificant jeopardy.
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  Speaker 1: And Mark, I grew up with white tail hunting being
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  Speaker 1: my number one thing. I mean, like I was a
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  Speaker 1: white only a white tail hunter for a long time,
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  Speaker 1: and um and you just have this security and since
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  Speaker 1: I mean there's just no there just does not seem
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  Speaker 1: to be a a real and present threat to white
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  Speaker 1: tail hunting for many, many many reasons. Um So, as
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  Speaker 1: a white tail hunter, I entered into the bear world
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  Speaker 1: at when I you know, about two thousand nine or
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  Speaker 1: so and started getting on the Nash scene with the
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  Speaker 1: bear world, and I was pretty shocked by what I
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  Speaker 1: saw in that bear hunters were or bear hunting was
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  Speaker 1: significantly undertacked by anti hunting groups, I mean like very
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  Speaker 1: much so targeted on purpose by anti hunting groups. And
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  Speaker 1: number two, I was surprised at the general sentiment in
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  Speaker 1: different places of the hunting community even or in the
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  Speaker 1: non hunting community about their ideology around bear hunting. So
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  Speaker 1: these were these were these two worlds collided, and I
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  Speaker 1: didn't see a connection in these two worlds until I
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  Speaker 1: got deeper into it on the national scene, and I
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  Speaker 1: realized that if we if you value any piece of
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  Speaker 1: North American hunting, then every piece of North American hunting
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  Speaker 1: needs to be important to you. And first of all,
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  Speaker 1: like it's so significant that we understand that and it
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  Speaker 1: sounds like I'm preaching to the choir, but I'm not,
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  Speaker 1: because I'm talking to myself too. We live an incredible
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  Speaker 1: life as hunters and modern times, Mark, I mean, even
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  Speaker 1: you've been able to go out in your backyard in
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  Speaker 1: Michigan and hunt deer and have opportunity, and I mean
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  Speaker 1: no very few places in the world is is there
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  Speaker 1: anything even comparable? And so we live here. This is
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  Speaker 1: all we've known. I've grown up, this is my life.
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  Speaker 1: But man, the world is a small place. And with
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  Speaker 1: the changes that have happened with technology and social media
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  Speaker 1: and uh, I mean, for lack of a better term,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: and not to touch a political hot button, but globalization.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, like the world is now this like really
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  Speaker 1: small place, and so things that used to be not
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  Speaker 1: seen by the world are now seen by the world.
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  Speaker 1: Things that at one time would have only been um
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  Speaker 1: influenced by like a small community of people, is now
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  Speaker 1: being influenced by the ideologies and worldviews of people who
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  Speaker 1: have nothing to do with what we do. And that
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  Speaker 1: is a place we've never been before ever, And it's
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  Speaker 1: put all kinds of stuff, not just hunting, but hunting
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  Speaker 1: is one of these things that has come into the spotlight,
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  Speaker 1: and people don't understand the context. They don't understand the science,
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  Speaker 1: they don't understand the heritage, they don't understand the world
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  Speaker 1: view of the people that do it, they don't understand
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  Speaker 1: the motivations of the people that are doing these things.
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  Speaker 1: And anti hunting groups have very strategically and very much
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  Speaker 1: on purpose, they have marketed this to a broad group
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  Speaker 1: of people. It's a very very easy sell for anti
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: hunting groups to say hunting is bad. I mean like,
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  Speaker 1: it's a one step cell for someone who has no worldview,
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  Speaker 1: uh that that that involves wildlife as a renewable resource
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  Speaker 1: and habitat management and and why you know, managing these
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  Speaker 1: populations so that they'll thrive. Like so it's like a
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  Speaker 1: one step cell for that. And then it's like a
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  Speaker 1: five step ten steps cell to bring people to a
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  Speaker 1: place of zero understanding to an understanding where they go, wow,
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  Speaker 1: actually these guys are doing something good. Well yeah, anti
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  Speaker 1: hunting groups have picked up on that, and we've actually
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  Speaker 1: become the cash cow in many ways of these nonprofit
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  Speaker 1: anti hunting groups because they they're able to to sell this.
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  Speaker 1: So this topic is so broad Mark, I'm having a
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  Speaker 1: hard time narrowing it down. But but the idea of
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  Speaker 1: guard the gate is that the whole idea is that
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  Speaker 1: there are fringe and I'm gonna use that word, and
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  Speaker 1: I'm change that word one day, but I'm currently not
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  Speaker 1: offended by that word. Uh, there are fringe activities inside
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  Speaker 1: of hunting, and by fringe, I mean less um less
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  Speaker 1: people actually do it. More people do other things their
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  Speaker 1: fringe activities inside of hunting that are intricate, intricate parts
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  Speaker 1: of the North American model, like bear hunting, trapping, predator hunting,
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  Speaker 1: using dogs, using bait, like all these things. They might
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  Speaker 1: seem to someone that doesn't use those things. It's just, man,
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  Speaker 1: we could just give that away like it's not gonna
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  Speaker 1: hurt me if that stuff leaves, well, it actually does.
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  Speaker 1: If you want this thing to continue beyond your and
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  Speaker 1: I hate to even say this because it's so far
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  Speaker 1: humans have such a hard time thinking long term, but
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  Speaker 1: we we've absolutely got to We've absolutely got to think
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  Speaker 1: long term. Um. But if you want this lifestyle that
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  Speaker 1: we lead to continue on to future generations, then we
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  Speaker 1: have to care about the whole system. And we have
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: all kinds of examples of this mark inside of of history. Um,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: because it might seem like conspiracy theory. You might be like, oh,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Clay is just one of those dudes that you sound
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  Speaker 1: like one of those kok yeah yeah, And man, what's
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  Speaker 1: so like? From my personal experience, if you would have
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  Speaker 1: come to me in Arkansas and and said clay hunting
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  Speaker 1: is under threat, your children won't be able to hunt
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  Speaker 1: the same way you have, I would have laughed at you, like,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: you know, probably ten years ago, Mark, I would have
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  Speaker 1: just been like, everybody's got some conspiracy theory about how
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: they're coming after them and going to take away their stuff.
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  Speaker 1: That ain't gonna happen. Well, I am the level headed
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  Speaker 1: voice of reason that is coming to say, man, we
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: gotta be on our toes. We got to be thinking
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  Speaker 1: more than just next year. We got to be thinking
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: long term. And uh and and we can look back
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: in conservation history and say that the guys that did
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  Speaker 1: that are the guys that we make statues of and
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  Speaker 1: name conservation organizations after because we realize the insight they had,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and and I mean, and I'm not I'm
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: not trying to say that that is me, that Mark
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: that came off wrong. But you know, just like we've
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: got to think that way. Yeah, I know what you mean,
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  Speaker 1: So so help me help illustrate this, because I get
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  Speaker 1: I mean and get this concept to this idea that
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  Speaker 1: these these these outside of the center activities or the
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  Speaker 1: fringe activities that are they're less popular and that makes
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: them an easier target. I understand that those are more
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: easily attacked by those who who own support hunting. But
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  Speaker 1: help me understand, help folks listening understand how those edges
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  Speaker 1: being chipped away at could eventually lead to impacting what
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  Speaker 1: a white tail hunter is doing, because, like you said,
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of white tail hunters that do not
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: feel like what we're doing here is under clear and
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: present threat. Right. I mean, there's ten million million deer
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: hunters or something like that, and generally something a very
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: high percentage of folks out there across the country are
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: still supportive of deer hunting for food or hunting for food,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So you might be able to
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: sit back and say, yeah, it's not really going to
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  Speaker 1: impact me. Um paint me this scenario where that might
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  Speaker 1: not be true. Right. So the declared position and the
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  Speaker 1: the clear and the clear strategy of anti hunting groups
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  Speaker 1: is incrementalism. And that's the phrase that that people could
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: remember and key in on, which means that when when
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: they're trying to take the whole of something, you just
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: can't reach in and take the whole. They can't just
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: come in and say we're passing a bill in the
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: United in the Congress where all hunting is over, Like,
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  Speaker 1: that's not gonna work. They know that, so that they
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: chip off the edges. It's called incrementalism. And the thing
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: is is that, I mean, the Humane Society of America
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: made a statement the CEO back in the nineties that
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: they have a their goal is to end all hunting
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: what they call sport hunting. Like so that's that's their
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: end goal. And and again when you look at the
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: look at the way these organizations work, they're massively well funded.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: And these nonprofits, like these guys, if if they successfully
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: ended bear hunting, they still have massive financial interests and
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: in making money and in in so they're gonna just
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: go after the next thing and make the next thing
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  Speaker 1: the target. Like it's like a like a like an
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: animal that just has to continue to be fed. Um,
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  Speaker 1: So I'm not saying it's all money. I'm saying money
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  Speaker 1: is a big part of it. I am also saying
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  Speaker 1: that there are people that truly are passionate about ending
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: sport hunting, and they're not. They're not They're not gonna
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: come to a place where they're just like, Okay, that's enough.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: It looks like, now, you know, the hunting world in
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: North America is we're satisfied with where it's at. We're
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: gonna let these boys keep deer hunting and shooting squirrels. Uh,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: that's just not the way they think. Um. And we
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: see this in many places in the world. For instance, Mark,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: I've got a in my office right here, I have
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: a painting and old painting of an English uh in
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: English fox hunt. And on this painting there's a bunch
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: of dogs, a bunch of walker dogs, and there's a
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: bunch of men on horseback and they're in this beautiful
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: village and there's there's families around bringing food to the hunters.
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  Speaker 1: And Uh. I have that painting mounted on the ceiling
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  Speaker 1: of my office. Okay, And so when people walk in,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: they go, huh, why is it on the ceiling and
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: not on the wall, And it's it's symbolic. Uh, that
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: scene is no longer on the earth anymore. Like in
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: in most places in all of Europe it is illegal
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: fox with hounds. It's a few places it still is.
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  Speaker 1: But essentially this one thing that was so significant to
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: European culture, you know, a hundred fifty years ago, which
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: when you see that, I mean like even people that
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: aren't hunters, when they see that, they go, oh man,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: that's one of those fox hunts. I mean that that
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: that permeated the world. And uh, today they can't do it.
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  Speaker 1: And uh it's a to me. It's a reminder that
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: I don't want people to be making paintings about the
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: glory days of North American hunting and it not no
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: longer be here, you know, Mark, does that answer your question?
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: In some ways? There? Could I be more specific? No,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: it does. It does answer my question, and and it
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: also brings to mind you mentioned incrementalism. I think another
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: kind of cousin, uh to incrementalism is something known as
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: shifting baseline syndrome, which is this idea that each one
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: of us um has kind of an internal baseline when
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: we when we think about a concept or a or
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: quality of life or whatever. And usually for many of us,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: we we established some kind of baseline in our early adulthood. Um,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: and this can apply to a lot different realms. But
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: let's just think about in the case of hunting. We
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: come into the world and we established kind of what's okay,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: and so we see what's around us, and we see like,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, people hunt for deer, people hunt for bears,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: people hunt for all these different ers, and they they
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: have this lifestyle and there's all these things. But if
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: we fast forward twenty years from now and then all
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, you start seeing this this incremental impact
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: of well, now you can't bait for bears, or now
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: you can't use hounds for bears. All these things happen
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: in ah this state or that state, or this thing
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: gets outlawed in this state, and you start seeing all
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: these tiny shifts being made, these tiny chips away at
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: the larger statue. All of a sudden, for much of
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: the world or much of the country, that baseline starts shifting.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: And once that baseline shifts, the next thing becomes that
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: much less of a change. So if you were to
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: compare what was okay quote unquote twenty years ago to
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: what might be deemed as okay quote unquote, you know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: in two thousand forty, all of a sudden, that baseline
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: could be shifted significantly, so much so that then when
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: they think, well, should you really be able to bow
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: hunt for deer anymore? I don't know. You can't use
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: bait to hunt bears, you can't use dogs hunt bearris,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: you can't use this, you can't hunt predators at all.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: You can't do this and this and this, yeah, and
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: why can't you do that? Well, it's because we've all
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: this is this, this uh you know, hypothetical person in
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: the future who's saying this, Well, we decided that this
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: thing is not ethical, and this thing is not ethical,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: and this thing is not ethical. So yeah, I don't
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: think that using a bow is ethical anymore because it's etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: And if this baseline keeps moving, it leads to those
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: things becoming an easy next step to be to be
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: crossed off the list. Um. And so that's something I
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: think that is tied into this whole conversation too, because
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: it's it's kind of like a damn, We've got this
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: damned up reservoir, and every time a little hole is
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: poked in that damn some water shooting out of it,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: and we might be a hold most of that reservoir back,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: but every additional hole poked in it, it becomes easier
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: and easier and easier to lose the water until one
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: day that damn is gonna burst open and the whole
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: damn thing is gonna go flushing down the river system.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: We gotta keep the holes plugged, We gotta keep the
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: damn in place. If the thing that the damn is
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: holding up is your lifestyle, your passion, this thing that
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: we that both of us and probably everybody listening, this
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: thing we all believe is is an important thing, not
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: just for us personally, but also in the big picture,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: an important an important part of North American culture and
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: management and conservation of wildlife resources. All those things are
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: dependent on having an active and engaged hunting population. Um,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: if that damn breaks, all that changes. Yeah, that's a
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: great point. Mark the shifting baseline really is. And here's
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: you know, if we started back in the deep history
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: of modern North American hunting, we would be talking about
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: like the market hunting era that turned into in the
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: early twentieth century, the the these first and fresh ideas
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: of wildlife management, conservation, wildlife management and regulated harvest and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: all these things. There were times when parts of our
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: hunting culture needed to be shaved off. If you're with me,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: like they're they're you know, like the market hunting world,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Like that wasn't cool. We didn't know it at the time,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: but like it wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't last. And then
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: then we came into this whole idea, you know, with
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Roosevelt and Aldo Leopold and in all these great conservation
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: organizations coming of age, and then we have this like incredible,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, the most one of the most well the
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: most unique story in modern human history of while of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: bringing back wildlife is the story of the North American
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: wildlife recovery. You know, that's taken place in the last
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years in this country. So there were
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: things that needed to be shaved off by society, like, yeah,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: we probably shouldn't be like, uh, market hunting for ducks,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: you know, killing a thousand ducks on the water at
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: the same time. Yeah, we shouldn't be you know, doing
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: buffalo jumps. Uh, you know that's a bad example. But
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: you know, Margaret hunt for buffaloes. Everybody knows that. Here's
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: the point we have fine tuned the North American mile
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: of wildlife conservation to the point that we have nothing
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: left to give. And I'm not saying that it's perfect mark,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: but what i am saying is we've got nothing left
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: to give the anti hunting community. And we have We've
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: proven that by our track record of the success of
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: the twenty nine big game species in North America and
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: the and we know that most of these animals are
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: indicator species in these habitats. So you know, if you've
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: got Arkansas black bears in Arkansas, that means that a
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: whole lot of non game species are doing good too,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: because if that bear is there, that means that this whole,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: this whole order of habitat is in order, all the
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: way down to the micro crustaceans, you know. And so
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: like point being, our our track record speaks for us
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: that this has worked. So we've we've found this like
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: beautiful place in history where we can say what we're
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: doing is working. What we're doing will last another five
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: hundred years, you know, if this place is still here
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: that long. So we've found this like great spot to
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: just say what we're doing is working, Let's keep doing
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: this and that's where and and and what I like
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: to say is we've got nothing left to give the
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: anti hunting community. Um, because we've shaped, we've the chaff
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: has gone away, we've shaved off, we've honed, we've changed,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: and so anything that's lost at this point is it's
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: going to be negative for hunting. And uh, you know,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: and we go back to all the way and this
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: goes back to educating people. You know, like somebody might say, well,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I don't like baiting bears. Well, anywhere that you bait
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: bears in North America. It's a management decision for wildlife
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: game agencies to be able to harvest the number of
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: bears that need to harvest. Well, I don't like hunting
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: with hounds. Well, anywhere that you can hunt with hounds.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: It's been a it is it is designed as a
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: wildlife management tool by the agencies that love wildlife want
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: to see them thrive. They've chosen to use hound hunting.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: There's a method to selectively harvest animals out of the population.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Well I don't like, um, you know, being able. You know,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: you just go down the list and it's like we've
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: got an answer for everything. There's not there's not just
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: some fluff um that needs to be shaved off. And
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I think that's the point, and that's the declaration that
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: we've kind of make, got to make as a community.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: And so that's where like I want to give my
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: support two things that I may never even be that
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: interested in. I've never killed a bear over hounds. Mark.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: That might surprise some people because I'm so outspokenly for hounds.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: And uh, I've never killed a barrel of hounds. I'm
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: sure I will someday, but like, I don't even and
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: it's this is a long story, but I'm just trying
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: to describe a point that I try to live is
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: that I don't own bear dogs. We can't hunt bear
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: here in Arkansas with dogs. I do own coon hounds
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: that come from bare lines. But man, I just feel
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: like it would be a massive loss for us to
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: lose bear hunting with hounds. Um it go ahead, Mark, Yes, So,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: so I want to bring up a tough question around
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: this issue, not hunting with dogs in particular. But but
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: this is the thing I strug with thinking about. There's
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: there's two there's two different angles on this that I've
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: heard taken. And I'm not saying I endorse this. I'm
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I'm acting a little bit as a devil's advocate here
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: to try to help you and I and anyone listening
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: to better to better formulate how we can think about
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: this and speak about this. There's one idea which is
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: kind of the stone wall strategy, which is essentially what
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: I think you're advocating for here, which is, there's no
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: more to give. If we give any more, we're poking
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: more more holes in the damn, the dam will come
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: down if we give anymore. UM. There's another angle that
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: some people would promote, which would be to protect the
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: greater whole, sacrifice, sacrificial lambs are necessary. Let me let
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: me expand on that a little bit. Let's let's let's
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: say that there's there's a case that some people might make,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: which is that hunting for food is a sustainable, supported,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: approved thing today and likely in the future. Polling has
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: shown that etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. UM, And whether we like
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: it or not, a tremendous amount of what we do
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: as hunters is a privilege that is only granted to
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: us as long as the general public supports of it.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Because we've seen that very quickly, I public support swings
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: the other way, legislation can get it rammed through and
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: can change that fast. So one might say, the most
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: important thing we can do to preserve the larger whole
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: of hunting is to make sure that we don't lose
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: the PR battle. If we lose the PR battle, we
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: can lose hunting in a day. Stick with me here.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: So with this line of thinking, and again I want
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: to make it clear, this is not what I'm personally advocating.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I'm simply trying to help. What could be said is
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: that if we want to protect the future of hunting
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: in general and hunting for food in general, we cannot
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: stand up for something that is far outside of that
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: because it is antithetical to the larger things. So an
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: example I saw on social media recently was that someone
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: posted this is a hunter posted about uh, some film
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: that was coming out recently that was examining predator hunting
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: competitions and how you know, hundreds and hundreds or thousands
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: of thousands of coyotes and predators and different things like
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: that were being killed for sport competition, thrown into dumpsters, etcetera, etcetera,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: And there was a lot of negative optics around this,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: and there was a lot of people saying, man, that
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: does not look good for hunting. That is a bad look.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And if the general public sees something like this, they're
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: really quickly going to say, Man, if that's what hunting
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: is about, I can't support that. And if that's the case,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: it leads to bigger and big your chunks of the
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: hunting world being crossed off the list for that reason.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: So this this kind of goes back to something that
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: our mutual friends Steve has talked about, which is, Hey,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: we're all on the same boat. Let's be supportive of
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: each other. But hey, if you're blowing holes in the boat,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: then we've got an issue. If you're gonna sink the boat,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: then we've got an issue. So how do we reconcile
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: those things? Clay, Like, what do you think about that?
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Because because I well a lot of like questions around
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: this too. Yeah, yeah, well and I do too. And
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: I love that you brought this up, because this is
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: a real thing that we've got to deal with and
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: think about. And first of all, if if if we
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: could just make a deal, like if we could just
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: sit down with the top level leaders that would govern
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: all of the anti hunting movement for the next fifty years.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: And we can say, tell you what, We'll give you
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: some of this fringe stuff, you just leave us alone
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: on the other stuff. I just don't think you could
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: do it. Uh. Number one, that's never gonna happen. Remember
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: what kind of the scenario described about these these big
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: groups being massively influenced by money, Like if they get
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: rid of one thing, they're going after another. So that's
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: just like an untrue premise that if we chopped this off,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: then the rest of it would be safe. So there's
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: and somebody might disagree with me, Like there might be
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: somebody that would say, well, but that's not true. And
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I would just say, show me where that's not been true.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Show me where there is an anti hunting group that says,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: tell you what, boys, we like you guys, we want
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: to play fair. You give us that and it will
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: just leave you alone. That just doesn't happen. So I
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: agree with that, and and starm to jump in here.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I just want to insert one more thought because I
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: want to challenge these ideas. And I'm not challenging the person,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: but I want challenges ideas just because like I need
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: to solidify my thinking, and I think we all needed
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: to make sure we've got a good way to think
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: and talk about this stuff. So that's why I want
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: to present these kind of conflicting these conflicts a little
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: bit so we can all kind of understand it and
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: think about it. Um. So, so let me throw another
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Devil's advocate thing in there, which is maybe like, we
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: could never as you're saying, we could never satisfy the
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: anti hunting groups, will never be able to satisfy that
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: extreme fringe of this movement who is anti hunting. And
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: I think most research shows that the actual anti hunting
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: groups are really just, you know, a relatively small portion
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: of the greater population, like people who are actively anti
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: hunting five percent of the population or something like that.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: So the you might say that the bigger piece of
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: the puzzle is not the anti hunting fringe, but it
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: is the se in the middle or whatever that number is,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: this big chunk in the middle who are kind of
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: like indifferent. It usually doesn't enter their sphere of influence.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: They never think about it. Uh. They're generally like if
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: someone said, hey, are you okay with someone doing this?
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Depending on the situation, they'll say, oh, yeah, okay, or
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: maybe they'll hear it like no, not so much. So
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: it's more so like we we've kind of represent the
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: fringe too. We represent five percent of the population that
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: does hunt, and then there's this five percent of the
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: populations like super anti hunting. And so one might say
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: that rather than caring so much about that fringe five,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: really we should be thinking about how do we win
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: over the middle seventy or the middle you know, ninety
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: or whatever it is um And so in that case,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: you might say, we can never satisfy these other folks.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Let's just try to satisfy that middle. Now, as I'm
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: saying this, I could also see the argument to what
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I just said could be that because of the influence
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: of the fringe anti hunters, they will keep fifting the
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: baseline for the center. And if the baseline for that
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: keep shifting because of the actions of the radical few,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: that then could lead to you know, issues. Uh. I
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: don't know, Clay, Maybe I'm going too far down this
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: rabbit hole, but it's I understand what you're saying, and
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: you're very much so right, and that it's the people
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: that don't care that will be the ones that decide.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: So really in many ways, it's a marketing battle. It's
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: a marketing battle. Like they're telling their story, we're telling
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: our story, and it's that interpret the story and make
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: the decision. And your numbers are are the numbers that
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I have in my head to mark. I mean, like
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to pay I don't want
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: to give too much credit to the anti hunting groups,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: but I don't want to minimize them either, because you know,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: some people are like, it's not real, not anti hunting groups.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: You know, they're not really doing much, but they are
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: in that they're influencing massive segments of people who didn't care.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: And you don't even have to radicalize people to win.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Do you understand what I'm saying. I mean, like, so
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: like there's these people that are like dedicating their lives
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: to the anti hung Yeah, you're right, that's like five percent,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: like small, small numbers, but them just tipping over somebody
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: who doesn't care in the direction of them is a
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: massive win for them and a loss for us, you know,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: And I think easier, I think way easier. So I
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: would say, like, if we're gonna if we're gonna say,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: there's their five percent versus our five percent, and then
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: there's that in the middle whatever. Um, it's absolutely easier
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: for the scales to be tipped in their favor because
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: I think the story they're telling does resonate with more
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: people that are divorced from hunting in the outside world. Um. Yeah,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: and this is not news. It's a one it's a
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: one step sell. Yeah, yeah, you made that point. It's
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: a one step sell for them, it's a ten steps
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: sell for us because we've got to bring them on
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: board with Well, actually, we aren't indiscriminately killing animals. Actually
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: we use these animals in many different ways. Actually they're
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: carefully managed. Actually we really care and support these things.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Actually we pay for conservation. Actually we we we give
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: back and bring family members and children into this thing,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: and we steward the landscape, and we steward that. That's
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: a long complicated story to tell. They can simply be
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: They could simply put a picture on Facebook and say,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: look at this murderer and what they did to ABC
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: D f G, or look at this comment that was
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: written here. These guys are bloodthirsty, nasty killers that are
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: killing Simba or they're killing Beluga the bear or whatever
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: it is, and very quickly you can switch people to
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: the other camp at least for that day or that week,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: or that petition um or that ballot measure um so.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: And it's tough. It's very tough. It's very tough. And
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: and I want to say something that I heard Shane
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Mahoney say, and I want to give him credit for this,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: because he changed the way that I perceived this. You
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: might have heard me talking and in in like the
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: trend of the age and in anything as division is
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: like them and us, you know, the bad guys the
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: good guys, this worldview versus that worldview. And unfortunately in
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: this scenario in there's some places where that's just unavoidable.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Like we there are two worldviews that are colliding here,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: and that is just the nuts and bolts of the situation.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: But what what I've heard Shane Mahoney say is that like,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: we're not we're not adversarial against the people that don't understand,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: because those are the people that we're trying to give
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: a good picture of what we do and an understand
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: of what we do. And I said it many times,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: it's like I want to have empathy towards people that
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: just don't understand their lifestyle. Like, I mean, there's plenty
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: of people that live in urban places or not even
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: an urban place. There's people that live in my town
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: here in Arkansas that don't understand modern hunting. And like,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: I'm not I can't be like mad at that person
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: for that, you know, um, and and uh and and
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: so like, I don't want people to interpret what I'm
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: saying as like a point of a point of division
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: us in them. Like, really, the way we need to
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: look at it is, Hey, we have a lifestyle that
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: we believe is is noble, is valuable, is worth sustaining. Uh,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: it's misunderstood, and it's in and we've made mistakes in
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: the past. But it's our job to represent our lifestyle
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: in modern times in the most noble, honorable way that
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: we can with the intent of showing the world a
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: true picture of who we are. And um, that does
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: involve some direct confrontation at times. And we'll talk about
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: like later some specific things that that we can do
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: that are going to help that part of it. Um.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: But you know, that's just the thought I had, Mark,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: because I I don't I don't really I don't like confrontation. Man,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, like I didn't like just wake up one
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: day and decided to start saying this stuff. I don't
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: know what I mean. I don't believe you because I
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: saw you. You posted a video on Instagram the other
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: day where you were directly challenging Steve Ronnella on how
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: shitty his crow call sounded. So you, my friend, are
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: glutton for conflict. If you're willing to debate on crow calls.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: If that is true, then I maybe it's true, Mark,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: maybe it's true. But I would rather just get along
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: with everybody. I would rather step or now that just
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: listen to me and blow the crow call the right way,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: and then all this would have been over. You know
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying, But it doesn't matter to get him
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: to gobble. I digress, digress, But no, I know what
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: you mean, and I'm I'm right there with you in
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: the same boat. But it's it's this, it's it's a
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: weird situation that I find us in because you're right,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: like we we we want to bridge gaps. We want
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: to build a coalition of support, we want to support
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: others within this community of hunting. At the same time,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: we have to win the pr battle and that's where
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I feel like the real challenges lie at least one
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: of what that's ee, the two sets of challenges. One
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: set of challenges is simply guarding the gate. The other
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: challenges winning the pr fight, and we gotta fair out
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: of way to do both at the same time. And
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: that is the rub well, and that brings up a
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: great point. I'm glad you brought up this this wildlife
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: killing contest thing, because boy, that's a hard one. Uh.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: I don't like wildlife killing contests. I'm mean honestly, like
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I I there's and and I
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: don't want to I don't know all the details, but
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: I can tell you that's not a great representation of
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: the whole model of North American hunting. At the same time,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: what those guys are doing, I mean they're they're not
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: there's not much harm. There's a lot of good being
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: done inside of sending out predators. And I know the
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: science that it doesn't always help you know, the game,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: animals and all the different things. Um So in some ways,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, while life killing contest is different than
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about, But at the same time, if
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: you give them that, they're gonna just come after something else.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: So I'm torn on that Mark, and I'm openly it's
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: because when I saw that stuff coming from a hunter,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: I thought, man, this is not good. I mean like
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: like I don't I I can't get behind that film.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: And I'm I'm kind of making myself vulnerable here, but like,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: you're not gonna see me promoting that film at the
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: same time, I see what they're saying. I mean, uh,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: and that is one little caveat that is very it's
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: its own little animal, you know, contest. Uh and uh,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: it's very different than predator hunting. Like the problem with
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: supporting that is that then you kind of fall into
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: this camp of this idea that you support. You know,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: you don't support predator hunting, which is tough. Here. Here's
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: something about um these things, Mark, is that well, you
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: you talked about people, there's wide support, wide public support
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: for hunting as a as a as a food source.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: You know, if we're hunting because we're gonna eat the food,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: then it's totally okay. That's where a lot of these things.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: There's very few animals that we kill that we can't
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: eat in the meat isn't great. And if we're talking
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: about the two big predators that most people are talking about,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: mountain lions and bears. I mean, this is just totally
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: a pr thing. I mean, like mountain lion and bear
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: meat is incredible. And that's what I've said as publisher
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: of Bear Hunting magazine, and I said it publicly recently.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: A big part of the future of bear hunting will
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: be determined by how well that we number one utilize
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: our bear meat as hunters and number two tell people
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: about that. Like, I mean, the bear meat is incredible meat. Um.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: And like the idea that killing a deer it's more
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: noble than killing a bear because you don't use the
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: meat is just not It's just not true. Um. There
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: was a there was a gap in our history when
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: just public perception of bear meat went down, you know,
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: just like all kinds of things kind of ebb and flow.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: And now we're bringing it back and we're saying, hey,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: bear meat is actually an incredible food source, incredible meat. Um.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: We're killing bears to eat them, too, uise their fat,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: to utilize their their hides. We actually use more of
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: a bear than any other game animal in North America.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: And I would I really believe that's true. I mean,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: I would say of bears that are killed, their hides
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: are tanned. And I could ask you Mark, and and
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to set you up. I'm a white
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: tail hunter too. I mean, how many tan deer hides
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: do you have in your house? I mean, you know,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: probably not very many. Yeah, And and that's not you
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: see my point? We could use a lot of a bear. Um.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: And that food thing is important, it's important, and I
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: think the well we we've got to have people that
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: have a robust understanding of the North American model that
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: predator hunting is important for its own reasons. And some
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: of those reasons aren't food. Like if we're talking about coyotes,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: if we're talking about raccoons, um, if we're talking about
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: and in all these things you could eat, but we're
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: more hunting these animals for management purposes. Um. But food
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: is a big part of it. It's a big part
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: of it, and we've got to do a better job.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: And that's what meat Eater has done so good at,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: been so good at is telling the story of the
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: food aspect of of hunting. So this story side of
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: things is critical, I mean, it is It is a
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: big part of the PR battle, who's who's sharing their
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: story more clearly and effectively, because that's what life is.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: It's it's a bunch of people all over the place.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: We're all telling our own stories about what we do
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: or what we want, or what we think the world
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: should be like. And usually the way the world goes
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: is in the direction of whichever story is more compelling,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: more clear, uh is truer about what it actually represents
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: than the other than the other side. And so if
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: we want my my hypothesis here is that if we
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: want to be able to guard the gate, so keep
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: up this, keep the damn up while also winning the
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: PR fight. I think we we need to fine tune
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: on our storytelling around this. And I don't mean fictional stories.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: I mean like talking about and showcasing and representing ourselves
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: and what we're doing. Um in particular, maybe as you
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: describe like there is a gap I think for some
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: folks to understand what's the story for predator hunting. If
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: you're not going to eat a wolf or a coyote,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: You're not gonna eat a coon your your shot out
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: of the tree, or a beaver that you trapped or
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: something like that. You're someone who has had to think
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: about this and talk about this. Can you tell can you?
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Can you share with us the story you would share
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: with someone about that. And I'm asking this because there
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: might be a new hunter listening right now, someone who's
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: gotten into deer hunting, and they say, Hey, I'm willing
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: to give this thing a shot. I'm willing to feed
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: my family with a deer. That sounds like something to
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: get behind. But they see someone talking about shooting a wolf,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: where they see somebody talking about trapping a beaver or
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: something like ah, that just feels like if you're not gonnating,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: I don't get it. Um, can you can you tell
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: that story for folks? Well, the first piece in this right,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: this phrase right here mark ought to be on the
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: lips of every North American hunter, all eleven point five
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: million of us, is that one of the pillars in
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: the North American Wildlife Conservation is non frivolous use of wildlife. Okay,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: so everything we do fits into everything we do that's legal,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: fits into this idea that we do not kill wildlife
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: just for fun. So okay, if we took that pillar,
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: we would say nine seven of that pillar is fulfilled
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: by us eating the meat of the animal that we harvest,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: whether it's an elk, whether it's a deer, whether it's
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: a bear, whether it's a turkey, whether it's a squirrel,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: whether it's a rabbit, pheasant. Like non frivolous use means
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna harvest this animal, and we're gonna
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: eat it. But there are other reasons to kill an
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: animal that have very productive outcomes for everything involved that
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: do not prioritize the eating of the meat of that animal.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: And these would be fur baring animals in particular. Um,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: you know, we're just not and I'm trying to you know, Well,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: here's the thing about meat too. There's no meat of
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: any animal in North America that you can't eat. I mean,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: there might be a poisonous frog or something. I mean like,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: but like, you can eat a coon, you can need
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: a coyote, you can eat a wolf, you can eat this,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: you could eat that. Like, it's not you're not gonna
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: be poisoned by it. But the the reason for the
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: killing that animal, that may not be the number one
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: reason you do it. Like, for instance, let's talk about raccoons,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: which i'm i'm I love to coon hunt, love it. Um.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Coons are considered messo predators, mid sized predators. At one
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: time on the landscape here in Arkansas and all over
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: the country. Um, there were there were gray wolves here,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: there were mountain lions here, you know, pre European settlement
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: and through some of European settlement, and those animals were removed,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: not not necessarily even by hunters, but by society and
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: by civilization, encroachment of civilization, taken away of habitat, and
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: by people just saying we don't want them here. So
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: that's not can't be all on hunters. That's a lot
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: of habitat related issues and whatnot. But regardless, they're no
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: longer here for the most part. Well, the mid sized predators,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: the meso predators have significantly increased. And this isn't anecdotal,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: this is like research based. There are I think three
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: hundred million raccoons in this country, which is far more
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: than there were or your pre European settlement, and so
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: raccoons need to be managed. And if the only reason,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, we we are doing nothing but good things
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: for the environment by taking raccoons out of that population.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: For many reasons I could go into, which is another
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: rabbit hole. And number one, those animals are gonna die
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: from distemper when they get overpopulated, which constantly happens research
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: based coon populations get overinflated. Uh, Distemper runs through the herd,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: knocks some way down, coons get hit on the road. Coons,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: you know this. These animals are gonna die. They don't
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: live forever. So a hunter going out harvesting a coon,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: taking his hide, eating some of the meat occasionally, to me,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: it's like massive wind non in it. And it fits
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: into that three percent you know I said of the
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: non frivolous use is fulfilled by eating the meat. There's
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: just three non frivolous use of that coon means you're
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: taking its hide, and it means that you're doing it
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: with management goals in mind. Um So, Mark, is that
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: does that satisfy you? Or I could go I could
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: probably continue. No, it's it's a great it's a great example.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: And I think you said something there that I think
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: is is really important, which is which actually just slipped
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: my mind, which is I literally just had a very
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: strange brain deletion of what I wanted to say. But
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: but oh, maybe you were mesmerized about the coon stories
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: down there with clay go coon hunting. What I think
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is that is that an important
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: thing to note is that it's it's non frivolous. And then, oh,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: I know, I know what I'm trying to stay here.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: It's a simple fact, but it's it's it changes the
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: whole paradigm when you simply state these things are going
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: to die. Everything dies. There's no life that extends in perpetuity.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: There's no raccoon that's gonna live forever except for that
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: bloodthirsty hunter. No, these animals, they they live and die
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: just like we do, and they are going to have
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: deaths that are much shorter. Some we much longer lived lives,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: some we much shorter. That's than the nature of nature
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: and the fact that we can go in there on
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: occasion with non frivolous intentions and and and take some
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: of that in a managed fashion. I think that that
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: is there's just some simple beauty in the fact that
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: in many cases it's food related. If not, it is
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: still being done for some kind of use. And oh,
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: by the way, it's gonna happen regardless of whether we're
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: involved in or not. If the hunter doesn't do it,
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: it's still going to happen. Why not be participatory and
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: also use something of this too. I think in that
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: way there's there's a simple defense there, you know. And
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: that's a great point. And and you know, some people
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: could get hung up on well, you know, what about
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: the what about the coon that you shot? Like, did
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: it go through trauma? Did it? Man? All animals are
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: gonna die in being killed at the hands of a
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: hunter nine percent of the time is gonna be much quicker, faster, ethical,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: more humane than the way that nature is going to
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: take that animal out. I mean, it's just true. And
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: it's kind of like one of those blunt facts that
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: like a big fish, cold dead fish slapping somebody in
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: the face. You don't you don't like to pull it
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: out very often because it's kind of crap. It's almost
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: crashed to say it. Like, but man, you see a bear,
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: that bear will is guaranteed to die a pretty non ceremonial,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: brutal death. And that's in that cold, wet fish of
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: a fact is increasingly hidden under the covers by society,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: especially for folks that that live far away from this stuff.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: The folks that live in a city that aren't engaged
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: in the natural world as many of us are and
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: see it. I think that's one of the best things
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: about hunting is it opens your eyes to the reality
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: of life and death, and I think it it makes
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: us understand and appreciate and respect so many things more
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: because of that. UM. I don't blame people who don't
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: have that insight. I don't I don't look at them
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: in disgust because they don't understand. I'm not even gonna
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: be mad at them for not understanding it, because maybe
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: they just haven't had the opportunity to see these things
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: think about these things other than something they saw on
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: TV or whatever. So it's it's really easy for someone
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: who's never been exposed to the stuff to think that
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: every animal out there is Simba and Mufasa and Raffiki
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: and all these critters that my son's watching on the
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: Lion King, and it is heartbreaking when Mufasa dies and
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: I get that, and my son cries, and I probably
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: cried when I was eight years old, and I can
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: see why. When we've personified an anthropomorphized animals so much
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: in media that it would feel like an individual is
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: being tragically removed from Earth. But this stuff is the
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: reality of the natural world, and that story is something
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: that we got to be really good at telling. Yeah, yeah, well,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean the whole the story of mankind
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: acquiring wild protein for sustenance for their families is his
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: old It's it's the oldest story. I mean, it really is.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: And in man has found ways to memorialize the hunt forever.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, going all the way back to the first
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: art that was created by humans was typically was created
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: around hunting. And you know, and this is kind of
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: getting romantic, and I'm okay with that mark because I'm
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: a romantic. But like, man, I go out here with
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: my plot hounds and we tree a coon out in
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: the mountains and kill it. Take it. Man. Ah, I'll
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: rub my hands on the on that hide and and
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: and thank god. I mean, and I'm not showboating here.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: I'm serious. If I'm when I'm by myself, I just
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: even do that. I'm just like, man, this is an
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: incredible thing. And I think about the nobility. And again,
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: this is romantic, but I'm okay with it. You know,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: I believe that's a more noble death than that animal
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: dying of distemper in a hole in a tree. Um,
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: I I just do. And you know what about point
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: oh o? One per cent of the coon population is
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: going to be harvested by a coon hunter. I mean,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: like most of them are gonna die in another way.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: And uh so for somebody to come and say that
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: that's not okay for me to do that, it's just
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: there's just no there's just really no baseline other than
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: like a false, hyper emotional, anthropomorphic argument that just doesn't
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: fall in line with the last gazillion years of human history.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, because you know, this argument, we can take
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: it way back. But but the further we go back
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: that we're complicated, it gets, but even the more clear
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: it gets, you know. And I think what we've the
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: message that we've got to show people is that we're
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: the good guys that love wildlife. Man. I mean, if
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: you would, and I see it in you, I see
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: it in massively throughout the hunting community, is that we
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: love these animals. And I'm careful to the way I
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: use the word love there, you know, but like truly
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: we value deeply, you deeply respect these animals. And it
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: is our goal to utilize the while the commodities of
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: these animals in the most honorable way possible. And uh
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: oh man, we could just go round and round. But really,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: good guy, you know, I agree, But I will I
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: will throw another thing out there, which might sound a
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: little radical. I love it, can't wait, Mark, But in
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: some ways, and this is this is not there might
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: there's I'm sure there are exceptions to this. But I
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: can empathize with I imagine a number of the people
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: on the other side of this issue, because I think they,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: in their own way, they love animals, they care about wildlife,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: they care about wild places, and I empathize with them
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: on that. I do too. I care about animals. I
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: love animals and wildlife and wild places. They're come going
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: at it from a just totally different perspective and from
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: a different set of experiences, so they understand it in
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: a different way. And so I say that in that
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: it's kind of on me in each one of us
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: two Maybe that's not what I want to try to
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: say here. I think it's not productive to look at
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: these other people who might challenge us on hunting as
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: the bad guys, as advert as adversaries. Now of course,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: like in some cases that they are. But at the
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: same time, sometimes these are people that really like wildlife,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: they really like animals, and they want to make sure
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: wildlife's out there, and they want to make sure that
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: there's thriving populations, all the same things I want. So
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: it might be part of me wants to say, these
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: guys are assholes and they're driving me nuts, and I'm
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: sick and tired of these crazy emotional appeals they're making
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: and the stuff they put out there that's you know,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: they're they're misrepresenting us, or they're twisting what we're doing,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: or yeada, YadA, YadA. It would be really easy to
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: get angry and look at these people as they're the
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: bad guys. They're the bad guys. But is that productive
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: or would the more productive thing be to say, you
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: know what, the majority of you folks out there actually
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: see a lot of the same things the same way
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: as I do. I want more, I want healthy populations
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: of animals, I want healthy ecosystems. I want a B
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: C D. Maybe rather than calling you an asshole, maybe
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: I could just call you to the table and say, hey,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: let's talk about this. Maybe maybe you're not a jackass.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not a jackass. Maybe we both have more
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: in common than we realize. Let's talk. I think that if, if,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: if we can do that more often, maybe they can
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: do that more often. Now, again, there's exceptions to all
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: of this. I'm not saying there's not some real turds
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: out there floating in the punch bowl? Is my friend
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Steven until it would say, but but maybe maybe if
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: we look at it that way a little bit more
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: often will have more positive direction too. I don't know.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: These are all the things that pop in my head
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: when I think about this stuff, But I think that's
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: one piece of the puzzle too well. And I think
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: that's what I was trying to communicate when I was
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: talking about Shane Mahoney's comment about these most of these
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: people aren't our enemies. Um. You know, there's there's some
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: radicalized people that would directly be you know, would directly be,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: but there's a lot that aren't. There's a lot that
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: I have the same ideas as us. And what you
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: just said is a can of worms, Mark because the
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: climate of is deep polarization and a deepenability to give
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: any compromise because we're fearful that any compromise will lead
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: to a snowball effect of something really negative happening. And
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: like you, you might hear me talking about guard at
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: the Gate and you say, well, Clay, you're you're saying
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: no compromise, And in many ways I am. But I'm
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: also saying that you know that we need to do
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: what you just said, which is which is build alliances
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: with like minded people that want to have our goals
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: and try to tell our story to them, not to
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: convince them to become us, but just to convince them
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: that we're on the same side as them. Um. And
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: that's that's what some of these conservation groups are doing.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: And there's there's just like in a battle, and and
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: not to use a violent example, but you know, there's
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: different strategies for for winning, you know. And sometimes we
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: have to be real direct and put our foot in
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: the sand. Other times there is a place to. There
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: is a place to. And I guess I'm not saying compromise.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying tell our story and say, hey, we're
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: after the same things. We're really after the same things.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: I think that that there's those two pieces of puzzle.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: There's this this story this pr and that's where maybe
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: not compromises the right word, but it's it's it's just
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: being open to talking about stuff. It's just sitting down
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: at the same table. We might we might still disagree,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: but let's not be disagreeable. How about that. Let's at
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: least sit down the table and talk about this stuff
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: and make sure you clearly understand what I'm talking about.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: And hey, I'll listen to you. I might disagree with
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: you on it, I might still say nope, this is
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: the line the sand, but I'll hear you out. And
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: then hopefully, if you know, if we take the initiative
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: there and are willing to put a hand across the
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: aisland and say hey, let's talk, let's listen, you know,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: you're more apt to get similar treatment coming back. So
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: so I see that as part of the pie. And
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: then the second pieces though exactly what you're talking about,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: which is stand strong at the gate though, and and
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: I want to We've spent a lot of time about this,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: like weird soupy muddy mixture of how we talk about this,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: how we think about this, how do we defend what
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: we do in certain ways? How do we tell that story?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: And like you said, sometimes that gets from antics. Sometimes
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: this gets like deep. Um, maybe no one's listening anymore, Clay,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It might just be just you and
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: me money. But if there's anyone else still listening, I
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: do want to get in some brass tacks, some actual
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: actionable things we can do to guard the gate to
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: make sure that there isn't the shifting baseline, to make
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: sure that they can't keep chipping away at things. Um
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: and and so I want to ask you to two things.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: Number one, i'd love if you think this is relevant
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: to your action items. I'd love to explore the example
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: of what just happened in California. And Then number two,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your key takeaways for how we
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: can guard the gate better. What kind of action we
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: can take to make sure this thing isn't eroded slowly
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: at Bye Bay by day by day. Um, yeah, I think, uh,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: I think maybe a good way to do it, Mark
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: is I've got five action points here that maybe we
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: could just run through pretty quick, and then we could
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: end on the California thing because it was a good
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: example of one part of the act the engagement points.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Does that sound good to you? Okay. So a core
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: idea inside of Guard the Gate is is unity inside
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: the hunting community. So one of the action points is
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: that as hunters, I think it's very important that we
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: don't talk negatively about other types of legal hunting. It's
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: just that simple. If it's true that we've got nothing
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: left to give, then the bow hunter in Wisconsin or
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: Arkansas doesn't need to he he. I mean you can disagree,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: but like publicly talking about negatively about other forms of
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: legal hunting, I just think degradates the whole system. Like,
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: just have empathy towards other people and realize that yeah, trapping, uh,
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: bare hunt with hounds, squirrel hunting with dogs, uh, pheasant
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: hunting like that other thing is somebody's passion that it
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: has a whole lot of things that are similar to you,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: slightly different, but a whole lot that is similar. And
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: so just take one for the team. Just take one
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: for the team. And like, I'm not gonna talk negatively
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: about crossbow whitetail hunters. You know, I don't want to
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: shoot to deal with the crossbow. Um. I mean whatever,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: I am going to promote that, I'm gonna love it
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: when somebody does it. I'm not secretly gonna tell my
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: kids that it's less of a thing to kill a
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: deer with a crossbow than it's like, because that happens
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: all the time. Can I I'm gonna go ahead. I
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: am just being uh the challenger today. I'm sorry, but
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: I but I I feel like you're someone who I
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: can have this conversation with and you can we can
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: like hash out the things that I have to hash
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: out with myself when I'm going on my runs in
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: the morning. It's so much more fun to actually have
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: a real us and talked about this. Is there any
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: line over which you would change your opinion on that? So,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: is there anything that you would could be Is there
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: any way you could be convinced otherwise or is there
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: some lyne in the sand that if someone crossed, is
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: it simply is it legal versus illegal? Or is there
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: anything else that would change your stance on that? I
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: think I think from a high level statement, I would
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: say that the chaff has been blown away from the
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: North American hunting. We found a model that works, and
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: so in anything that is illegal, I would stand behind.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: Like that's my general statement. Um, does that mean that
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: we're not going to continue to fine tune things a
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: little bit probably, but those things are gonna be the outliers.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: I would say, Mark, Um, and I grew up. Man,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm talking. You're talking to somebody that was deeply
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: indoctrinated as a white tail bow hunter. I mean, my
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: dad didn't even own a deer rifle. Uh my dad,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: God love him, and so do I. He talked very
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: negatively about crossbows, and he would today if he were here. Uh,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: you know, Like so I just see that as like, man,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: we can't do that anymore. It's like, it's okay if
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: we got used the crossbow and I I and we
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: could get into all the arguments of you know, management
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: and liberalizing seasons and stuff. And I think we're just
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: in a new place where we gotta think about it different.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying crossbows are archery equipment, you know,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: like maybe we need different seasons. Like that's that's the
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: can of worms. I'm not trying to get into. But
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: is that clear Mark what I just said? Yeah, Yeah,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: it is. Um. I mean it goes back to one
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: of the things we talked about earlier, which is the
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: all in the same boat versus punching holes in the boat.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: So I think there's an argument that some people might make,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: not with crossbows, but there might be something else where
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: they could say, well, this thing is technically legal, but
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: it's uh. Some might argue this thing is punching holes
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: in the boat. So we've already kind of explored that
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: we don't need to dive back into it. But but
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: I agree with what you're saying is that we really
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: need to in general, be together on this stuff, band
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: together on this stuff, and and make sure that we
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: where I think we can challenge each other. How about this,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: Let's all be unified and stick up for each other
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: and and not talk negatively about each other. But I
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: would argue there's room for us to challenge each other
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: on how we tell our stories. So in that there's
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: certain things like hey, maybe it's maybe you don't call
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: someone up publicly about this thing, but hey, buddy, uh,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: did you think about how this might look to so
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: and so or what this might impact to so and
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: so so. So maybe there's room for those conversations. So still,
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: we've got to police ourselves, Mark, and I've I've said
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: that before in the bear hunting community. I've preached it
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: to the Bear Hunting magazine people, is that the only
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: way to really bring about social change is to is
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: to talk to people like and particularly about social media
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: stuff around uh bear hunting and stuff like, Yeah, you
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: got to build a culture that like, it's not okay
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: to do that, and that culture it's built by people
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: confronting people. But I think if it's done in the
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: right way, if the culture is right, then we all
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: realize we're kind of on the same team, you know.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: And and so the general point number one is unity.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: And and absolutely it means that you're gonna have to
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: kind of take one for the team. And that is
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: a hard thing for humans to do. But I'm just
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, if we want this incredible lifestyle that
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: we all live to persist, we're gonna have to take
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: one for the team. It means that if I don't
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: like Antler point restrictions, I can't call the guys that
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: do want a p R s assholes, or I can't
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: technicalities of that kind of law mark. And that's a
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: good example. I mean, I'm talking about the more general,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: high level like is it okay to unt deer? Is
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: it okay to use bait. Is it okay to you know,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: like getting into like management stuff like yeah, I mean
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: we could challenge each other, but but I'm totally kidding.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: I'm a bar with you and that and that. Yes,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: like there's all these like there's so many different little
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: things that people like to yell at each other about
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: and complain on Facebook about and bash people about and
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: all of it. You know, let's let's let's remember on
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: the same team here. You might like to wear a
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: different color shirt than I do on certain days, you
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: might like do just a little bit differently, but come on,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: and the way I like what you said, We do
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: have the right to to talk to people about the
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: way they tell their story because everybody knows somebody that
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: just does not portray the way we hunt in a
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: good way. And and we do have to find ways
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: to minimize that. But the main thing is that we
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: we we replicate the good things, so you know, and
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: some of these other points deal with these things, mark um.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: The the second point that I had here was engaged
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: political activism at times when it's appropriate, and uh and
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: and boy it's a tough one, but there will be
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: times when you'll be called upond to sign a petition
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: or do something that kind of got to go out
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: of your way to to make your voice heard inside
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: of this democratic society we live in that you may
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: you just decide, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: take a stance on this, even if it doesn't affect me.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: And that's where we'll get into the California thing later,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: is that it was a bunch of people not from
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: California that helped influence a potential bill in California. UM, So,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: at the right time and in the right way, engage
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: political activism. But I don't even think that's the main thing.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: Mark um number three. And I'm gonna get to what
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: I believe is the main thing. But so number three
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: would be put your money where your mouth is and
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: become lifelong members of organizations that are dedicated to truly
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: engaging in these struggles in very productive ways. And there's
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: a ton of them, and and and I have no
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: affiliation with this group, but I I've vowed to say
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: I think every hunter in North America ought to be
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: a life member of the Sportsman's Alliance. Uh. They are
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: an incredible group, UM and they are actively involved in
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: fighting legislation. So like Clay nucom, we could get on
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: social media and say, hey, that's bad, I don't like that.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: How much good that does? I don't know. These guys
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: are dedicated. They know how political systems work, they know
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: where to push the buttons, they know when to do
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: things when not to do things. I mean, these guys
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: are pros, and they work behind the scenes, and they're
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: an incredible group. And there's a ton of them. I mean,
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: you know, join a National Wild Turkey Federation, Rocky Mountaine
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: Elk Foundation, National Deer Alliance, I mean, like all these groups.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: Like So, my point is every single one of us
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: ought to be enrolled and active paining members of at
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: least two or three sportsmen's groups and not just joining
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: for a year and forgetting about it, but just saying like, hey,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna dedicate. I'm just gonna this is just something
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: I do. I just stay a member of this organization,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: support them financially. We gotta put our money where our
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: mouth is. You ever thought about starting a bear hunting organization? Um,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: It's been brought up many many times, Mark, and I
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: just don't I don't know that I'm the man for it. Uh,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: it would. Uh. I mean, yes, I have, but it's
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: a it's a tough one and I and I'm not.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: I wonder why there isn't one yet there's not enough
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: hunter Well, there there is, there is, there's Uh. The
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: Western Bear Foundation is a great organization and they would
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: be one that would be on my list of great
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: organizations to be members of. UM. They're a little bit
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: more Western focused, so it's not a national bear organizations. Man.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: There's some great state bear organizations. Michigan Bear Hunters. Man,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: if you're not even if you're not in Michigan, you
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: should be a member of those guys. I like that group,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: Michigan Bear Hunters, Wisconsin Bear Hunters. UM. A lot to
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: be learned from the way they run their organizations and
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: what they do. Really smart guys, really unified organized UM.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: And that's a whole another podcast. But but joined sportsman's groups.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the simple thing. So Number one market
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: is unity. Unity inside the hunting community. Don't talk bad
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: about somebody just because you don't like the way they
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: do something. Just take one for the team. Be a
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: big boy, pull your pants up and just like be like, hey,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: this guy, I probably have a ton in common with
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: this guy except for this one little disagreement. Unity Number two.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: Engage political activism when called upon. Number three. Join sportsman's
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: groups that represent what you want, and man, shameless plug
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: for Sportsman's Alliance. Everybody ought to be a member of
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: sports Sportsman's Alliance. And then, man, here here's the biggest one. Mark,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: here's the biggest one. And it's it's one that people
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: might go, what, But man, we got to have a
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: massive dose of self introspection. Like if I am proclaiming
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: that we need to, you know, clean up the hunting
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: community and and clarify our narrative and you know, improve
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: our public perception, those are external things that reflect something internal.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: And I have to make sure that Clay Nukem is
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: living the values behind closed doors that I'm proclaiming, because
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: there's one thing that human nature will never refute, and
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: that is authenticity. Man, everybody and their brother can tell
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: when somebody is a fake, when somebody is a liar,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: when somebody is not representing what they say they are.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: And we have to clean the inside of the cup
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: first to make the outside clean. So I I challenge everybody,
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: and I challenge myself that if Clay Newcomb talks about
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: the utilization of bear meat and how we've got to
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: do better at telling the world that we use our
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: bear meat. Man, I got to use my bear meat.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: I've got to. I've got to really value it. I've
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: got to, you know. And I've not done everything perfect
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: at all. Like if I talk about adherence to game
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: laws and how game laws are the salvation of North
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: American wildlife, and by god, I better obey the game
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: lass and I better make sure that anybody that's around
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: me is obeying the game laws. Um, you know, clean
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: the inside of the cup. If we want hunters to
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: be if we're saying that this lifestyle is worth preserving
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, then we better be walking the walk.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: And man, I don't say that from like a preachy place.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: I say that truly from a place of I want
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: to look at my life and find the places where
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: my proclamation does not line up with my my actual activity,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: and there are places. And clean the inside of the cup,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: because if hunters, if we're saying we're the good guys,
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: we've really got to be the good guys. Amen. Amen
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: to that. Yeah, So that's that's important. And then the
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: fifth thing I have down here, Mark, is to become
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: a herald. A herald would be you know, like a
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: like a mouthpiece. And uh yeah, and and and I
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: think a lot of these ideas of what we've talked about,
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: like like like the science behind the North American wild
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: of wild life conservation, uh, talking about using the commodities
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: of wildlife. Talking about the way that we you know,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: healthy organic meat that's way more environmentally sustainable than going
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: to the grocery store and buying a beefsteak. Like some
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: of these things just we just need to practice. Like
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: some people hear us talk, they hear you talk about
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: white tail hunting, and they go, man, how does the
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: guy's brilliant? He can that? I bet they are. I
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: know they are. It's because you you talk about it
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: every day. Mark. I mean like it didn't just come naturally.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: I mean there was some natural but you see what
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like I know, my the narratives that I
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: now very clearly can express ten years ago I couldn't.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: And it's come by practice, It's come by thinking about it.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: And and and and this is true in every sector
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: of our lives, is that there was a time for
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: like white tail hunting. There was a time when nobody
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: knew anything about white to hunting in the early eighties,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: Like actual scientific knowledge of how to hunt why til
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: deer was like relatively small. Today, my son who's fifteen
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: years old and one probably knows more about white tail
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: biology than like a pretty good bow hunter did in
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. I'm not saying how to kill one,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: but just like if you were to take a test
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: and say, when is the peak of the white tail rut?
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: What does white tail gestation? What do antlers need to grow?
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: What you know? Yauda, YadA ya. The narrative got stronger
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: as people were educated. That's what we need, Like, we
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: just need people that understand bear hunting. They understand why
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: we baited bears, They understand why we run hounds, they
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: understand why we need predator management, they understand meso predators.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: They understand, Um, you know just that of course we
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: eat bear. We actually ulize that more than almost any
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: other big game animal we take. So the narrative has
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: got to get stronger. And the more people here people talk,
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: the more it's gonna be readily on people's tongues. Man,
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: all the time, I mean and you and I being
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: an outdoor media we probably get it more. But like
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: you know, very often, very often people inside of our
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: circle of friends who are not hunters. And there's lots
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: of them that, you know, parents of kids that my
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: kids go to school with. You know, I just have
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: these little I talked to them, you know, Um, and
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty intentional about the way that I portray what
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: we do because I want them to understand and uh
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: so to become a herald. Um, we we've got to
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: We've got to tell our story, you know. And and
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: that goes that's not just outdoor media people. That's the
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: guy that will never be on outdoor media, but just
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: his circle of friends, his influence. He is portraying a
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: positive light. You know, there was a time Mark and boy,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: I'm getting romantic deep romanticism here, but there was a time.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: There was a time when hunters were known, there were
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: men of renown in their communities. I mean, like I
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: talked with the lead historian of the Ozarks named Brooks
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: Blevin's I love the guy, and um, you know, bear
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: hunters were the rock stars of the eight hundreds. They
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: truly were like they were the sports stars. They were
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: like the they were the celebrities because you know, there
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: were no there were no sports teams, there was no
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: social media. These guys were known as leaders in their
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: communities because of their hunting prowess. And there's no real
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: direct correlation here, but I'm just saying sometimes I think
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: when people think of hunters, they just think of these
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: you know, they think of a really negative thing. I
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: think we could change that, and I think that's what
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: what we're on track to do with just I mean,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of sectors of society that
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: are really well educated. Like what if you could just
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: pick a guy out of the crowd that had a
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: hunting license and he was just full of information, just
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: full of just like man North American modle of wildlife
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: conservator and doubt a douta dout it, you know, just
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: like like like like we just permeated because we're so
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: passionate about this, because this this lifestyle that we lead
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: is so essential to the human existence, which it is,
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: like I believe that hunting is. I mean, it's just
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: it's just so it's such a primitive thing. It's not
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: like playing tennis. I'm sorry, it's not. Uh, it's it's
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: such a primitive human thing that is affected so much
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: of our deep human history. Man, I want to fight
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: for this thing. When I say fight, I mean I
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: want to be educated. I want to see this last
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: I want to see this persist. I want people to
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: be spokesman and representatives of hunting in an honorable way.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: That's like, deeply, deeply valuable to me. And I think
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: we can do it. I think we can do it.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of people that would have a
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: pretty grim look at hunting man, not I think we're
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: I think we're on the an upward trajectory and we
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: gotta be we gotta be smarter, we gotta be wiser,
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: we gotta be more unified, and we can do it.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: I think we can do it. Mark, I'm right there
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: with you, and I think if we can follow this, uh,
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: this roadmap you you spelled out for us, I think
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: that's the way to do it. I Uh, I'm glad
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: we're able to have this conversation. This is it's one
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: of those things that at the surface seems simple, but
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: if you dig down, it becomes much more complicated. As
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: I think we've seen throughout this conversation, as we dove
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: into these different things and conflicting opinions and different ways
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: to look at stuff, and and all that's to say
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: that we have to be educated, and we have to
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: practice both thinking and talking about these things and walking
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: the walk. And Uh, if if we do that, and
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: if we can spread that this game play in, I think,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: like you just said, the future is bright. So Uh,
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: I wanted to to spend a lot of time exploring
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: the California example. We're running not time, so we can't.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: But I'm not I'm not upset about that because we've
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: we've we've covered plenty of really good stuff. Can you
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: give me, like the the two minute rundown of California
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: because I think I think it ends us in a
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: place of of positivity. It shows us an example of
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: how we can do these things and have a positive outcomes. Um,
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: give me this victory story to wrap us up. So
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: there was a senator in California that proposed an all
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: out ban on California bear hunting, which is a fairly
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: unprecedented thing. Uh. Most of the time these groups go
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: after go after different parts of hunting, you know, like
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: like for example, in Colorado, they outlawed hunting over bait
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: and hunting with hounds, but you can still hunt. Ar's
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: there this California, and California has done the same thing.
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: At one time you could hunt hat with hounds. At
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: one time you could bait. Now you can't. They that
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: this was an all out band. It was portrayed as
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: that's in trophy hunting in California. I can't believe in
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: one that this still, this barbaric practice still exists. That
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: was the way it was portrayed. The bill was proposed,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: it was called SP two five two, and because it
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: was it was just proposed, so it wasn't actually in action,
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: and and you know it wasn't like in front of
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: the the legislators, but it was proclaimed that it would be. Well,
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: the senator put up this put up this little picture
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: on Instagram, and this guy I saw where he had
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: like most of his posts marked that he would make
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: on his Instagram might get between fifty and a hundred comments,
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: like if you just looked back at his stuff. I
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: think after about a twenty four hour period, he had
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: twelve hundred comments on that one post, and about of
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: them were hunters coming in and saying this bill is
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: not based upon science. This is not a good bill
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: for the state. This is not a good bill for
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: bear hunting. And man, it was awesome. Like a few
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: outdoor people that had influence came in and were the
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: first to start making comments and then the world just
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: flocked to that really did. And uh, within two days
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: the guy withdrew the bill and I I speculate on
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: what happened in that he had no idea that people
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: outside of his jurisdiction, which in his jurisdiction, which was
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: I think in the San Francisco area. Um, he felt
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: like this was just gonna be a lob pitch, you know,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: to his base and they would be, oh yeah, Well
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: he was met with stiff opposition and they dropped the
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: bill and it you know, it was a small victory
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: if we're being honest in some ways. In other ways,
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: it was a big victory because we saw what would
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: happen if the if the whole, if the whole of
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: the hunting community united, which was great. There were guys
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: on there saying, I'm not a bear hunter, but this
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: is bad for bears. You know, people that never hunted
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: California never will. So it was a great example of
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: unification and uh, man, there's so many other things. That's
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: the hard part. Since that time, mark my inboxes of
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: of of other bad stuff happening across the country. And uh,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: this one. And he dropped the bill drop. I think
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: you missed one thing in your would map or in
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: your action plan, and I think that is and maybe
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: maybe you had this stuck inside of one of your
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: five rules, but it was it could probably be talented
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: into the being engaged. But it's staying informed. It's it's
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: it's it's really easy for these things too, to just
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: happen without most people knowing about it, unless you know
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: someone who had a great, big following, you know, share
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: that oh this is out there, and then all of
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: a sudden it got attention and we're able to do
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: something about it. But it is a little bit on
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: each one of us individually too, as best as possible
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: stay up on things going on. And maybe that's achieved
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: by joining these different conservation organizations. Maybe that's achieved by
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: just you know, reading through what's happening in your state
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: every once in a while, or checking in with someone
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: who does this for a living or whatever. It is.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the solution is there, but but
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: it is a little bit on each of us to
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: to try to stay educated on this too so you
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: can become engaged when needed. Um. But yeah, man, this
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: is this was a great example of the hunting community
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: as a whole railing around something that maybe wouldn't impact
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of those people directly immediately, but but we
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: rallied around it and and we're able to squash it
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: before balloons into something that all of a sudden had
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: a momentum of its own in the other direction. So
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: I think it's a I think it's a great example
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: of what we can do when we when we do
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: those things you talked about, and um, I just want
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: to make sure we make a trend of that and
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: not the opposite. So this has been great, Clay. I've
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed this. Um. It makes me. It makes
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: me just want to have you on the podcast every
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: week to talk through the tough questions I have in
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: my own mind and you can be my my sounding
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: board as as I examined all the other questions. Um.
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: But for people that want to stay up to date
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: on the new stuff you've got coming down the line
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: the podcast, all your other content, where should people be
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: looking for that? Yeah, so you know, all my content
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: right now is going to be on the metator dot
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: com and stay tuned for very soon. I mean, I'm
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: just gonna I've been saying very soon for a long time, Mark,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: but sometime, let's just say in the next two months.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: I think that's fair. You're gonna see a new podcast
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: coming out from me either that I'm going to be uh,
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: the host of. And it's gonna be really innovative podcast. Mark. Um,
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be a ton of fun. It's gonna be different.
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: I really think a broad base of people is gonna
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: enjoy it. It's not about bear hunting, it's not about
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: guarding the gate necessarily. I mean, there'll be components of
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: it that will be but I think it's the kind
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: of podcast that you'd want to kick on just even
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: with your non hunting friends. Um. But it's it's and
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: I just can't give too much away about it, but
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be a documentary style podcast, kind of an
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: efficient listen um and uh gonna really dive deep into
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: some cool topics with cool people. And I'm very, very
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: excited about it. Um. And then so my my other business,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: uh is Bear Hunting Magazine. So we we publish a
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: print magazine, bi monthly magazine. Um. That is a good
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: place to stay up with with with the bear hunting
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: world tips and tactics. I mean, you know, we've been
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: a print for twenty years and it's the only print
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: bear hunting magazine in the world. And uh so that's
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: that is another thing that I do aside from meat Eater.
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: That's working with meat Eater. Um. But yeah, that's where
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: they can find me. Mark, all right, perfect, Well h Clay,
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: I just want to thank you for taking the time
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: to uh indulge my questions and wanderings and ramblings, and
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: uh this is a lot of fun my pleasure. Mark,
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: thank you all right, that is a rap. Thank you
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: for tuning in, Thanks for hearing us out, Thanks for
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: thinking about and considering some of these issues and questions. Uh,
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: let's all try to remember plays five steps towards a
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: better future for hunting. I think he's on some great
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: things here, and there's certainly more that we can all
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: think about. Me too, as I try to figure out
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: how I personally can you know, make a meaningful impact
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: on this issue, and I think as a group together
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: we can all do it. So that said, thank you
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: for listening, Thanks for your attention. If you're out there
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: scouting or shed hunting or working on habitat, I hope
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: you're having a blast. Enjoy the great outdoors, enjoy your
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: deer hunting pursuit. This is a day and good thing
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: we've got. So with that said, thanks and stay wired
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: to hunt.