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Female Firsts: Emma Nakuina · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and what good stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I never told you protection of iHeartRadio and today is
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: time for another edition of Female First, which means we
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: were once again joined by the wonderful, the worldly Eves.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Welcome Eves. Hi, we are so excited to have you.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: As always, you once again have been pretty busy. Can
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: you tell the listeners what you've been up to. I
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: have been moving around so yeah. Since the last time
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: we all spoke, I was leaving Cape Town to come
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: back to my hometown of Atlanta, and that was.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: The world win of a time. But I had a
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: really good time though I really did. It was just
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: like one thing back to back to back to back.
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  Speaker 2: My birth day was during that time as well, so
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: I'm anased to teach a yoga class on my birthday,
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  Speaker 2: which was really nice, and I got a lot of
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: the things that I like. I didn't have with me,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: but I want it so I don't know if I
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: mentioned this before, but I like to keep I'm liking
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: keeping things light when I'm here, I have. I like it.
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  Speaker 2: I like the fresh start and not having a lot
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: of things. But there were some things that I needed
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: because when I came I came directly from India, so
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: I had like only two suitcases, one big one, one
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: small one. So there were a lot of clothes that
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  Speaker 2: I didn't have, So I was kind of under equipped
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  Speaker 2: in some ways. And I'm trying. I don't really buy
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  Speaker 2: a lot of things, and I'm trying to buy the
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: fewest amount of things that I can. So, oh, I'm
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  Speaker 2: one of my first hike here since I honestly kind
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: of abominable. But I have been, like I think I
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: told you, I've been like was strangers like you would
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: want to hike because I didn't want to go alone,
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  Speaker 2: and then relating to people as weird. That's a whole
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  Speaker 2: other conversation. But h Yeah, So I went on a
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  Speaker 2: hike with a couple of people and it was gorgeous, stunning.
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  Speaker 2: I'll never get tired of the landscape. Yeah, it's just
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  Speaker 2: really it reminds me quickly how much of a privilege
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  Speaker 2: it is to be here. That's awesome, that's so cool.
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  Speaker 1: Glad that you had a good time coming back to
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: your hometown and your birthday was good and that you're
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: back in.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Cape Town safely. Thank you, yes, yes, and you got
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: the hike. Safety is important in these times all the time,
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  Speaker 2: but these times too.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, Well, this is an interesting question I have.
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  Speaker 1: I know the answer for Samantha. I don't know the
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  Speaker 1: answer for you, Eve. But were you ever involved in
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  Speaker 1: like a debate club type of thing or a model
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  Speaker 1: you in type of thing? Would you Are you good
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  Speaker 1: at like persuasive essays?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I am grinning from ear to ear for everyone
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: who can't see me, because I am really great at
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  Speaker 2: persuasive things in general. Like I attract things to me
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: through my writing, so that is one of my strong suits.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: So like if I I've won competitions, I get things
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: through my writing. So I will say that, yes, I
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: if somebody needs to do a petition for something, I'll
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: be like, okay, use me, like I'll help you. I
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  Speaker 2: can't guarantee you the win, but you know, like use
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: the power of my pen specifically to try to get
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: the thing that you want, like because I have I
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: do have that track record. However, debate team. No, I
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: was never on a debate team. I was an act
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: dmick team girl. But I don't think I would be
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  Speaker 2: good at debate team because I get I'm not an arguer.
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  Speaker 2: I don't really like confrontation and that will just be
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: a little too stressful for me. I think, I think
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  Speaker 2: some people. I also think of the things that you
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: have to be a good talker, and I know I'm
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: sitting here and everybody's like, you're talking on a frickin
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  Speaker 2: mic right now. I was not a talker as a child,
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  Speaker 2: So although I did perform and I did lots of things,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: but still it wasn't my favorite thing to do. So
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  Speaker 2: that was definitely something I would not choose. I do
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  Speaker 2: remember being in my gifted education class when I was
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: in elementary school and they were teaching us about debate,
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  Speaker 2: and back then I was like, oh, okay, maybe you know.
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  Speaker 2: But then it got time for me to be able
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  Speaker 2: to actually join debate teams and I was like, nah,
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  Speaker 2: not for me. I'm gonna do. I'm doing a million
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  Speaker 2: other things anyway, So yeah, what about y'all.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I was I was in a class that had
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  Speaker 1: a debate element. I don't think I was on debate team,
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  Speaker 1: but you had to learn to debate. I was really
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  Speaker 1: good at it, but I didn't like it because the
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: teacher always assigned me specifically the topic the opposite argument
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  Speaker 1: I would like to make because I was the town
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: feminist back then. Some people would know like, oh, she
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: would hate argue this, and so they would always assign
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: me that. But I was also really competitive, so I
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  Speaker 1: would usually win and then'd be really.
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  Speaker 2: Mad about it.
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  Speaker 1: So I was on that. I don't know if I'm
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  Speaker 1: really good at persuasive writing. I'm good at writing like
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  Speaker 1: I won essay contest, but I don't think because I
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: remember once I had a teacher tell me I relied
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  Speaker 1: too hard on I can't even remember where it's called anymore,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: but the one where you're like trying to make people
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  Speaker 1: feel an emotion, like I relied too much on that,
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  Speaker 1: and so I'm not sure. Maybe I would. I would
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  Speaker 1: defer to you, Eve for except writing. I think we
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  Speaker 1: need a little bit more of that.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I was gonna say, that's really true, actually effective.
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  Speaker 3: Look at the Republican Party, that's what they used and
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  Speaker 3: have one. I don'tt to understand what she means. I
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: think it's because you were winning too much.
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  Speaker 2: I think it was.
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  Speaker 1: I think probably the point she was trying to make
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  Speaker 1: is that the Republican Party shouldn't be doing that, but
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  Speaker 1: they are winning.
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  Speaker 3: You're correct if you want to win that's what you do, apparently.
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  Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, say she was a tough teacher. She
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  Speaker 1: was notoriously really tough.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I came from a school that had very little extra extras,
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  Speaker 3: so I don't think we had any like debate teams.
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  Speaker 3: There were things that I was not involved in because
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  Speaker 3: I wasn't like top tier. I think I ended up
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: being top twenty, but not top ten, and anything extra
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  Speaker 3: extra would be top ten. So I didn't quite make
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  Speaker 3: the cut when we would have I'm sure because you
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: had I think this was my tenth grade. I'm assuming
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  Speaker 3: you'll probably remember when you had mock trial and it
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: would be based off some play. I think mine was
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: about Caesar. I think that was the typical Was it
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  Speaker 3: yours too? Like I see, oh, okay. I was Brutus's lawyer,
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  Speaker 3: and though because the kids already knew the play and
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  Speaker 3: they did not care about trial stuff, they already made
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  Speaker 3: up their mind way beforehand. My point was that he
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  Speaker 3: was innocent of intent and murder because what he was
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  Speaker 3: doing was for the good of the country. That he
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: admitted that he did kill them, but this was not
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  Speaker 3: what you think. And my teacher was like, I think
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  Speaker 3: you need to be a lawyer, like she was freaking,
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  Speaker 3: like she was freaked out by me because of the
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  Speaker 3: rationale that I came out on as the tenth grader.
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  Speaker 3: But I still lost because they were like, no, but
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  Speaker 3: he killed them.
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  Speaker 2: I was like, but that's not what I'm saying.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the closest I can remember of having something.
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  Speaker 2: Did you continue? You didn't continue after that, because it
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: sounds like you got some nice affirmation, and for me,
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  Speaker 2: it's saying I'm good at something. I'm like, okay, maybe
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  Speaker 2: all right with this for a second.
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  Speaker 3: It's one of those things where it kind of felt
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  Speaker 3: like an insult, you know what I mean when they
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: were like, yeah, you're too good at that.
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  Speaker 2: You need to check and see if you're okay with
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  Speaker 2: your soul type of thing.
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  Speaker 3: Because I came from a very country mountain town that
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  Speaker 3: had very black and white ideals, so in that sense
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  Speaker 3: of like, yeah, you're a reasoning murder and I'm like.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, but this is what I know.
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  Speaker 3: So essentially, obviously I'm not a lawyer.
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  Speaker 2: I don't I don't think it would make me cry
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  Speaker 2: being a lawyer.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, because I'm also very hyper competitive, So if I
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  Speaker 3: felt like I was representing it either way, Like, if
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: I was representing someone who did something wrong, I would
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  Speaker 3: feel guilty. If I was convicting someone who did something
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  Speaker 3: who should be like like had reasons were like all
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  Speaker 3: these things, I would feel like guilty. So I don't
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  Speaker 3: think I could do it anyway back to.
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  Speaker 2: That's your answer.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of considerations to take in, of course,
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  Speaker 1: but let's just loosely relate to who we're talking about today.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm very excited to talk about this person. Who
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  Speaker 1: did you ring for us today, Eves.
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  Speaker 2: I am excited to So today we're talking about Emma
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  Speaker 2: kailik Metcalf Beckley Nakuina. So she is considered the first
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  Speaker 2: female judge in Hawaii. Now there is some discrepancy over
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: that title, but we'll get into that a little later
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  Speaker 2: in her chronology when we get to that point. But
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  Speaker 2: I also want to give a big shout out to
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  Speaker 2: Uhuwayhi Hopkins, who I pulled a lot of this info from.
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  Speaker 2: She did research on Emma and like has talked about Emma.
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  Speaker 2: There's a thesis that she did about Emma and it's
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  Speaker 2: called hanw Makalolo for the Benefit of Her Race. A
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  Speaker 2: portrait of Emma Kaili Capulo Metcalf Beckley Nakowina, and apparently
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  Speaker 2: she started this research because Frank Metcalf, who was Emma's brother,
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  Speaker 2: is her great great great grandfather, so there is a
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: family relation there. Essentially, why is why she how she
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  Speaker 2: got into that research. The thesis was done in twenty twelve,
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  Speaker 2: and there was a talk that she gave in twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty where she mentioned that she needs to update the thesis.
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  Speaker 2: I haven't seen an updated thesis, so I know that
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: there are some things in that thesis that she said
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: herself because of the descendant, said you need to correct
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: that that need to be updated. But it is still
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  Speaker 2: a very comprehensive thesis and like a foremost place you
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  Speaker 2: can go to for a very full, full body chronology
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  Speaker 2: of Emma's life, and it is really cool. And also
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: I'll say that she has been on my list, my
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  Speaker 2: collection of people I wanted to talk about for so
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: so long, and in the mystery of why it is
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: why it feels like the right time to talk about
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  Speaker 2: her right now? That is now? But yeah, I'm excited
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  Speaker 2: to get into her story. Shall we get into the history? Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: So Emma was born on March fifth, eighteen forty seven.
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  Speaker 2: She grew up in Manoah, Oahu and her mother was
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  Speaker 2: a chiefist named Kailaku, and through her mother's line she
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: was coco Alie or basically a class of chiefs of
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  Speaker 2: nobility that cared for the ali e, which were the
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  Speaker 2: high nobility, and the Coco would uplift their ability to
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: control a district or an island, so they were in
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  Speaker 2: service to the alee. So Hopkins does talk about this
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  Speaker 2: more in her thesis because there's a lot more that
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: goes around how nobility worked, how the classes changed because
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: of the overthrows and the new constitutions and the disenfranchisement
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  Speaker 2: and the colonization and the white supremacy of it all
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: that was happening at the time, So a lot of
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: those structures changed the way that Hopkins described it, and
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: that affected what Goco Elee meant by the time Emma
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: was around and was growing up. But just know that
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: it was because of her lineage. She was hanging around
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: the nobles. She was in the noble circles related to
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: the Lee, and that was like part of what she
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: was born into and how she moved through society and
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: how she worked to when she was younger. But Hopkins
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  Speaker 2: also said that she believes that one of the knowledge
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  Speaker 2: systems that did come down through Emma's mother's side is
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: the management of water, and that is part of what
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: she what she studied, what she was a scholar on
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: how she worked later in her life, and that water
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  Speaker 2: management may have also had something to do with her father,
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  Speaker 2: who was Theophilist Metcalf. She might have also gained knowledge
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: in that as a child because of her father. So
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: her father, Theophilist Metcalf, was a descendant of Puritan immigrants.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: He was He had this de Guero type shop. Apparently
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: it was short lived, but that kind of gave him.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: He's been known as a first photographer in Hawaii. He
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: was a land surveyor for the Mahele, which was the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: land redistribution process as proposed by Kamehameha the third and
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: as soon as foreigners could buy land, he bought some land. Uh.
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  Speaker 2: He was also Marshal of the Kingdom for a short second.
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  Speaker 2: Hopkins told this story of how there were no walls
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: in the prison because that was one of the things
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: he was over as a Marshal of the Kingdom. But
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: like he was like, we need to get some walls,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: like can't we figure something out? And essentially he was
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: only this marshal for a short time because he didn't
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: really care for the position. He was also Superintendent of
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: public Works, member of the House of Representatives, and he
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: became a sugar planter. So there's this very involved and
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: very full it's full of tension. This story in Emma's
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: in her father's life that had to do with land.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: So he bought some land. He bought a plantation for
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: one thousand and forty eight dollars that was put in
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Emma's name when she was a child, and that was
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: supposed to be her land. So after he died, he
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: left the land and his will to Emma, but the
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: trustees of that will wouldn't let her manage it. She
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: wasn't like, she wasn't able to get her land back,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: and she couldn't take the issue to court, And thinking
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: about her role in litigation, it is very ironic to
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: think about how much trouble she went through with this.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: But she couldn't take the issue to court because she
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: was married and the rule of law at the time
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  Speaker 2: was that she had to have permission from her husband.
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  Speaker 2: Her husband at the time, who were going to call
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: him out by name in a second? Okay, so you're
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: about to find out his name. Her husband at the
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: time wouldn't let her go up against the sale because
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: because y'all, this is about to get even shadier, the
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: person who was buying the plantation was his cousin's husband.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Isn't that wild? Take a moment. The probate for her
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: father's will ended up taking like nine years. She tried
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: to go to court after he died, the case was
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: dropped because the person who purchased it had already owned
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: it for many years. So yeah, a little glimpse into
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: that drama. But her father was also a member of
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: the Royal Hawaiian Agricultural Society and he went on to
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: have three more children, Frank, Helen, and Julia, but they
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: didn't share a mother with Emma, and they didn't move
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: through society at the same way, like the same way
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  Speaker 2: that Emma did. So it it seems like they were
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: kind of as strange like they were. They didn't really
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: get along, well, they weren't on the same page. Yeah,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: it didn't seem like it was the closest relationship for sure.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: But when Emma was a child. Kameyh May how the
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: fourth chose her to be trained in traditional water use
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: and writes it was a thing to kind of see
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: what children were drawn to and kind of what they
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: had access to through their parents, and what their parents
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: were well versed in and knowledgeable in, and they could
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: be you could you would nurture that and help a
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: child move forward and whether whatever that direction is. And
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: this was the case with Emma. She got trained in
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: traditional water use of rights and kameha May how the
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: fourth also made her custodian of the laws of the
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Kamehamehas and she was made an authority on the workings
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: of all ancient laws. So she these are really high,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: very noble things that she was assigned to do. She
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: went to a Wahu college later called Punaho and she
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: was the first Kanakamui or native Hawaiian student to go
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: to Punaho school. She almost attended Mills Seminary in California,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: but her father died in August of eighteen sixty six
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: in Oakland, which is where the school was, and she
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: instead went back home and took care of family. So
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: speaking of that man, his name was Frederick Beckley, her
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: first husband and they got married in eighteen sixty seven.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: The Beckleys or they also are named family okay, so
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Sam Beckley you name dropping because they were of a
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: high chiefly ranking as well. The two of them had
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: seven children together, although unfortunately a lot of them died young,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: and her first husband died in eighteen eighty one and
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: she ended up remarrying in eighteen eighty seven. Tsei and
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: cousin Moses Nakauina. He was also of Coco a lie
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: status and Emma she was as Coco a lie like
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: we talked about earlier, how that class was. They were
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: in service with a lie. She was a sort of
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: lady in waiting to Queen Kapiolani and Queen Liliukolani, and
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: when the queens would travel or start organizations, Emma was
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: there and she would help out. And as an example
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: of some of the things that she was involved in
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: because of her status, she was secretary of the Lilo
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Ko Lanni Savings Bank, which was a bank for women.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: She was a first division member of the Lilo Ko
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Lani Educational Society. And as an example of the travel
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: she did, she went on a trip to Bird Island
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: with Lily Okalani as I said earlier, the researcher who
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: gathered all this information, did all the research and recorded
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: that research on the life of Emma was clearly after
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: these is still finding out more about Emma and her life.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: So she found out that she was a godmother to
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Princess kai U Lani. So I don't know how much
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: in the last few years more that she's found out
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: about Emma, but I'm sure there's a lot more. If
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: I'm probably a lot more to be discovered too. But
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Emma herself didn't have a lot of she didn't have
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: any really formal training in western law. But her dad
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: apparently had a lot of family members who were trained
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: in the legal field, which sounds about right. I mean,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: you know, considering his lineage, he had that Puritan family
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: from Massachusetts also, you know, of high ranking and all
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: these things. Yeah, so she still had access to that
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: information essentially. And from eighteen eighty two to eighteen eighty
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: seven she was working as a cure trix. And we've
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: come across that suffix a lot in our previous episodes.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Ava trix was one of my favorite ones to say.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: But as it sounds, it means curator. She would call
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: herself a cure trix, and she was a curator at
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: the Hawaiian National Museum and Library. That museum was commissioned
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: in eighteen seventy two, and the first curator of that
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: museum was Harvey Rexford Hitchcock Junior. He was appointed in
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: eighteen seventy four, and in eighteen eighty two, the Minister
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: of Foreign Affairs, who's was Walter Murray Gibson, had the
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: museum moved from the Department of Education to the Department
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: of Foreign Affairs. Museums were becoming this hugely important and
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: influential place and became more desirable as a vehicle for
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: attracting tourism and money and all the things. And he
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Administer of Foreign Affairs, appointed in the curator of the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: museum in eighteen eighty two, and under her she apparently
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: uplifted this museum a lot. The museum's collection was considered prized.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: But in eighteen eighty seven, just five years after she
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: became curator, the museum was affected by the Bayonet Constitution,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: which is a part of the whole lead up to
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: the annexation of Hawaii, the overthrow of Native Hawaiians. A
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: lot of Native Whyans were disenfranchised in this process, and
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: so the museum fell prey to that whole insidious situation.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: In eighteen ninety one, most of the museum's collection was
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: moved to the Bishop Museum. Also, I just always, you know,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: saying things like that out loud, it always feels so
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: it always feels so icky, like it feels so dark,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: because it's just yet another example of the negative effects
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: that cultural institutions have to face when there are things
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: that are happening that are mated down through government, especially
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: especially white supremacist actions of government that touch cultural institutions
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: and the work that they're doing. But yeah, most of
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: the museum's collection in eighteen ninety one was moved to
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: the Bishop Museum. She did not become the curator at
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: the Bishop Museum, and we'll come back to that in
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: a bit of a second. But to move through this chronology,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: we'll move on, but just put a pin in that
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: that name Bishop Museum. So she also publishes a lot
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: of writing while she was curator. In eighteen eighty three,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: she wrote a pamphlet that went with pieces that were
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: going to an exhibition in England, and that was called
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Hawaiian Fisheries and methods of fishing, and that kind of
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: kicked off her start in becoming the prolific writer that
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: she was. She began writing serials for newspapers. One of
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: the first ones was Hiyaka and then and in eighteen
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: eighty four to eighteen eighty six she published Moleilo or
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Hawaiian Stories that were passed down through generations, and this
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: publication called Thrums Annual. She also wrote reports, and she
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: advocated for things like she wrote a letter in a
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: newspaper advocating for creating and naming a park, and a
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: lot of the other stuff she did revolved around those
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: legends and stories that had been passed down. She published
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: some of those too, and in eighteen ninety four she
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: published this treatise called Ancient Hawaiian Water Rights and Some
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Customs pertaining to Them. And Hopkins has said that historians
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: and scholars still use that treatise as a source for
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: how water was managed and pre contact Hawaii. So coming
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: back to the Bishop Museum, William Tuffs Brigham became the
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: first curator of the Bishop Museum in eighteen ninety two.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Later on he became the first director of the museum.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: He was there for quite a while, so there was
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of back of worth in his position at
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: the museum. But there was a point where in eighteen
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: ninety seven, Emma and some of her friends were on
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: the lawne watching the Kamehameha School for Boys some of
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: the students who were there watching them do military training,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: which is a pretty normal thing for people to do.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: But Brigham had a problem with it because he had
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: a problem with her. He had beef with Emma, and
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: he had a janitor come out and tell Emma and
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: her friends to leave, which is like, you couldn't do
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: your own dirty work. But whatever, Brigham is soon fired,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: but then he's brought back, and then he was later
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: fired fully. But yeah, there was there was some beef
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: and back and forth there. But in eighteen nineties she
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: kept writing. In eighteen ninety seven she co wrote an
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: article where she interviewed the oldest living inhabitant of Hawaii.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: And it was the year after that, eighteen ninety eight,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: when Hawaii was annexed by the US. Just to kind
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: of position us in time here. So a few years later,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: nineteen oh four, the Hawaiian Promotion Committee, which was this
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: precursor to the tourism board there hired her to write
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: a pamphlet to promote tourism. She is the only Hawaiian
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: they hire, which is kind of okay, not kind of.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: It is really wild to think about, but not surprising.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: It's one of those things where it's like, okay, of
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: course it's the tourism board, you know, but she's the
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: only Hawaiian they hire. And it was the only pamphlet
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: that they never reprinted. It was called Hawaii It's People
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: in their Legends, and in it she uplifted how industrious, organized, humble,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: and not eligible Hawaiians are, so she said in it,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: like how on par Hawaiians were with Europeans and Asians.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: But then she'd also mentioned how there were ways Hawaiians
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: were superior. So it definitely seems like one of those
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: things where she knew she had to She knew she
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: had to navigate how she was saying what she was
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: going to say in there, because it's this way of
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: like she knew her audience, right, so she knew who
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: was going to be reading these pamphlets, So they're going
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: to be thinking Hawaiians are inferior to everyone else, especially
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: the Europeans, Europeans and Asians who are coming here. The
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Hawaiians are going to be less civilized than these people.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: They're going to be less knowledgeable than these people. So
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: it kind of makes sense that she was putting Hawaiians
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: on par with Europeans and Asians. She would say, I
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: can't remember exactly what the quote was, but something like
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: we do this just as well as Europeans and Asians do.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: And I just had to sit with that for a
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: second because it's like, it's like you only have to
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: do that. You know, you're used to being part of
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: a marginalized group where it used to be inferior. It's
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: kind of like you have to prove to these other
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: people by directly saying we're on par with them. All right,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: let's start there as a baseline, and then you can
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: kind of get into the Okay, these are the ways
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: of which we think what y'all are doing is actually
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: not up two hour standard. And so she went on
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: after saying that to say that like Hawaiians, we care
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: for the land. Unlike and this is a quote, the
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: white man, with his alleged superior knowledge, prevailed on chief
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: and commoner to throw down their wholesome restrictions as saving
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: of superstition, with the result that fishes are very scarce
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: in Hawaiian waters and getting more and more so every year.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: So basically, she was saying, we know how to take
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: care of the land. We've been doing this for a
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: long time. We have a lot of great, sustainable and
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: precedented systems that work well. And you come over here
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: and you are supposed supposed to have this like highly
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: civilized knowledge, this highly superior knowledge, and you're not keeping
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: the fishes alive. They're scarce because of this so called
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: knowledge that you have. So I just appreciate it. It
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: seemed like a kind of like you're stepping into the
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: water slowly. You're starting on the shallow end and then
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: you're kind of tipteeling your way into the deep end
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: on the other side. However, we hear the language that
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I just used. It wasn't. She wasn't. They didn't love that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: The promotion committee didn't love it. So it makes sense
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: that they didn't. They didn't reprint that pamphlet and didn't
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: care for that. So a few years later, in nineteen
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: oh seven, she retired from her position as water commissioner,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: but she kept writing and It's notable that all of
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: her publications were in English, and I can't speak Hawaiian.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: I don't understand Hawaiian.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: So what I'm saying is we've talked a lot before
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: about like how fewer things are accessible to me and
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: to us as other English speakers, especially for English only
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: speakers like a lot of and readers like a lot
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: of us are in the United States. That means that
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: this work is accessible to me and to other people
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: who are just English speakers who want to read it.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: But of course I was curious about why that was,
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: because Emma could speak Hawaiian and she did give her
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: lectures in Hawaiian. So the way that Hopkins, the researcher,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: just talks about it, she says that she was still
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: even though she was writing in English, he was still
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: addressing the native Hawaiian audience through like subtexts and meanings
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: that native Hawaiians would know but other people might not
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: pick up on. So foreigners who would be reading this
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: wouldn't understand those underlying meanings, but the Hawaiians would get
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: that subtext. Hopkins also says that she Emma might have
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: wanted to educate people who only spoke English, so it
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: was a matter of like, yes, it was still kind
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: of how we talked about with that quote, like Okay,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: we just have to tell you a little bit. Okay,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: we are on par with y'all, like we do do
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: this too. So those are a couple of points about it.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: There's another point that I'll get to in a second,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: but I wanted to pause to just say that I
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: just loved hearing Hopkins say that about how there was
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: subtext there because of course I'm not I'm not Hawaiians,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: so I wouldn't know that subtext. However, I can relate
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: to it so much because this is how knowledge was
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: shared through black people in so many ways, through black
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: communities throughout history, because we weren't able to say things
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: in front of white people. So it was like we
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: had to figure out how to code. It was a
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: lot of enigma, and it was a enigma that we
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: understood amongst each other in ways of sharing secrets and
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: information that we didn't want to go outside of our
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: circle that we knew we had to say it in
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: a different way, but it was still in public. So
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: it's like, how do we do that in a pamphlet?
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: How in her case, you know, she was addressing both audiences.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: So despite the fact that she was using English, which
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: was this colonizer's language, she still was able to speak
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: to her own people. And so I just really I
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: appreciate that point, and I think just as us who
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: for all the non historians listening and non scholars listening,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: you know, it's something that we are able to relate
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: to and understand more deeply, even if we don't fully
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: know about Hawaiian history and what it means to be Hawaiian.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: But the other point that Hopkins brought up, which was
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: also something I loved, and this is speaking to my
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: WU side, is that Hopkins thinks that Emma might have
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: had some layer of foresight here, of predictive ability, because
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: she was like, well, maybe Emma had this inkling that
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Hawaiians might not speak as much Hawaiian in the future,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: so this language but will be lost to a lot
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: of native Hawaiians, and so if I write this in English,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: then it will be accessible to Hawaiians later on, who
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: should absolutely have this knowledge. So it's cool to think
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: about that as well. I know that speculation, speculation based
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: on her deep research and understanding of Emma though, and
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: also whether that was the case or not, that is
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: a very real benefit of what happened, because now we're
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: sitting here talking about her, and now a lot of
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Hawaiians who may not have been able to understand the
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Hawaiian language have access to this information. And also, Emma,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: there were articles that were written about her in her time,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: but her her presence has only gotten larger and more
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: brilliant because of all of these publications she did, and
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: because a lot of them are in English. But yeah, oh,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: there is one story I forgot to tell about Brigham
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: related to his related to his beef with Emma. So
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: in nineteen seventeen, she brought a group of visitors to
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: the met and he told her off. I'm not sure
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: exactly what he said, but one of the museum trustees
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: was witnessed to this whole brigamorole, and Brigham was fired
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: because of that. So she kind of got him fired.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I think that's kind of an important thing to say,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: where it's like, in a way, she got him fired.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so she did a lot of other things too.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: She was a notary public, a grantor of marriage licenses,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: She was a translator, she was a cultural advisor. She
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: was a translator because she would take American curriculum and
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: she translated it into Hawaiian for Hawaiian schools. And in
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: eighteen ninety two, she became Commissioner of Private Ways and
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Water Rights for Kona Oahu. And this is where we're
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: getting to her first, she was the only woman to
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: hold this position, so once Lili o'kilani isn't queen anymore,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: that made Emma the highest ranking woman in government. So
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: she held that position until nineteen oh seven, so quite
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: a while. And Emma herself said that she held that
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: position longer than anyone before her. So one of the
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: cases that she was on during this time in nineteen
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: oh four was called the Lehai Naluna water Rights case,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: and she was co counsel on that case with Assistant
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Attorney General Noah Aluli. So, like we said before, she
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: had no training in law, she wasn't a lawyer, but
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: she was considered to have the knowledge to be able
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: to do the work that lawyers and judges did. And
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Hopkins maintains that even though there's been like debate over
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: whether she is an actual judge, because we started this
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: episode talking about how she was the first female judge
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: in Hawaii. Hopkins maintains that she was a judge, and
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: I'm going to trust the people who have done the
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: research and understand the legacy and the actual work that
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: people did, because there can be also a lot of
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: semantics at play as these with these first like we've
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: talked about before, but the practicals of it were that
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Emma was presiding over cases. In those cases, there were plaintiffs,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: there were defendants. Those people who were there were represented
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: by lawyers. These cases happened in a courtroom, and people
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: there were sworn in, there were witnesses. I mean, the
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: list goes on, and when Emma made a decision, she
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: recorded it and those decisions were legally binding. And for
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: these reasons that is that's why Hopkins maintains that she
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: was a judge. And Emma was called a judge in newspapers.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: So there was a nineteen ten article about her called
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: American woman a judge in Hawaii. Yeah, an American woman,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: missus Nakuwema has made herself a power in Hawaii. She
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: holds a unique position in the territorial government. She is
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: a water rights commissioner and sits as a judge to
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: decide cases where the rights are in litigation, and is
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: considered an able and most just official, her decisions seldom,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: if ever being set aside. So yes, newspapers are not
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: the final say on what someone's official title was. However,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: even then they recognize that the work she was doing
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: was essentially the work of a judge, So that is
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: her first. We're given it to her today. We're the
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: official We are the official judges of who gets to
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: be a judge. That's right correct. She was one of
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: the first women inducted into the Hawaiian Historical Society that
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: happened in eighteen ninety four. She was also a member
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: of the Daughters of Hawaii and she taught Hawaiian studies
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: at the Territory Royal School McKinley. And she ended up
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: dying on April twenty seventh, nineteen twenty nine, when she
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: was eighty two years old. And like I said earlier,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: she has living descendants, so there are still people who
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: carry her legacy forward and it is rich. So I'm
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: glad we've got to talk about her today.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Me as well, and what she did so much. I
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: love that we didn't get to her first until like
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: the ag. Yeah, Now I kept thinking, like, did I
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: miss it? She was just up to so much and
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: it's a really fascinating story. And she also saw a
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: lot of change in her lifetime and had to adapt
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: to those changes. So it is a story that I
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: feel does invite more questions. It is sort of like, oh,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: I should go research that, or I should look into
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: that more. I'm really happy that people like Hopkins have
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: done this research, are still doing this research, and we
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: might find out something new that's really cool.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: It is really cool to think about. And that just
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: made me think, Annie, about how you're talking about how
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: she was in this transitional period. That has been kind
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: of a running thing for our last Like the last
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: few people that we've talked about, they've been at these
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: like transitional periods from eras of colonization to eras of independence.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's the other way around, but yeah, these people
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: have lived on these precipices. So I didn't even think
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: about that until just now because I remember mentioning that
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: in our last episode too. I don't know if that
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: says something about where we where we are in America today.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: That's why these stories are like the ones that I
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: want to share at this moment that could go a
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: lot of ways. So I don't know what to wish for,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: but maybe we're in a precipice and I can only
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: hope fingers crossed that it's in the right direction.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, let us hope us Oheeves, Well, once again, thank
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: you so much for bringing this story to us.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: We always love having you. Where can the good listeners
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: find you? Thank you? Y'all can find me? Go first
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: to Eves Jeffcote dot com. That is spelled y V
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: E S J E F F c O A T
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: dot com. Y'all can get to everything from there, sign
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: up for my email list, keep up with what I'm doing,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: read some of are writing all of the things. You
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: can also go to Instagram I'm at not Apologizing, and
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: you can also listen to many other episodes of Stuff
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Mom Never Told You, where we're talking about female first,
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: our pioneering accomplishments of women in history.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, and go do that if you have not already listeners.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can or
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: email us hello a Stuff I Never Told You dot com,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: also on Blue Sky a Mom Stuff podcast, or on
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok at Stuff We've Never told You. We're
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: also on YouTube. We have some merchandise accompon Bureau, and
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: we have a book you can get wherever you get
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: your books. Thanks as always to our superroduce Christina or
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: executive producer My and your contributor Joey. Thank you and
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening stuff Never told You. Projection
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: you can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.