Latest / B Shifter / Blue Card Weighs in on Two-In, Two-Out

Transcript

Blue Card Weighs in on Two-In, Two-Out · B Shifter

• 0:45
  Speaker 1: My favorite thing about the big box class is this gives people the opportunity to not only understand how tactically they're going to run a big box fire within their community, but also they get to simulate it.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: So we get best practices from Shane Ray how fire protection systems work, and then we also get to simulate it as part of the class.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I would say for me, the biggest takeaway was having the opportunity to sit for a full eight hour day and listen to Shane Ray Probably the most in-depth coverage I've ever heard on sprinkler systems and understanding the tactics and the strategy that we have to implement this workshop's actually been pretty informative.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of stuff, I think, as company officers and command staff, that we don't look at.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: We kind of look at the fire aspect of it but we don't really look and take into consideration the built-in fire protection.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: So I think this one, having the keynote speakers and being able to highlight those things as a command officer kind of gives me the ability to kind of forecast what's already going on in the buildings and then how to support them.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: Hello, I'm Shane Ray.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: I want to invite you to join me September 16th and 17th at the Allen V Brunicini Command Training Center in Phoenix, arizona, for another great big box program with Blue Card.
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: See you there.
• 2:20
  Speaker 6: Welcome to the B-Shifter Podcast, john Vance.
• 2:23
  Speaker 6: Here Today we also have Chris.
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: Stewart and Josh Bloom.
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: How are you guys doing today?
• 2:32
  Speaker 6: Hanging in there, happy to be here Doing well.
• 2:34
  Speaker 6: It's good to see you guys.
• 2:42
  Speaker 6: We are gearing up for our conference in Cincinnati, slash Sharonville, coming up September 30th through October 4th.
• 2:45
  Speaker 6: We'll throw up the website that you can get registered for that, but we have seats available now, although our workshops are just about full.
• 2:56
  Speaker 6: The one is full the May Day workshop and then our other cert labs are filling up, so get on it.
• 3:05
  Speaker 6: And then our other cert labs are filling up, so get on it.
• 3:07
  Speaker 6: If you plan on joining us, get registered, because that early bird pricing is going to run out next month, so we want you to be able to get a good deal on this and enjoy some training with us this fall in Cincinnati.
• 3:19
  Speaker 7: John, we are giving some consideration to go ahead and add in a second Mayday workshop.
• 3:23
  Speaker 7: We got like 20 people on the waiting list.
• 3:26
  Speaker 7: The first class of 40 is full and we cut it off at that so that we can have plenty of one-on-one time and answer questions and people have time to go through and get the best experience that they can get in the class.
• 3:39
  Speaker 7: But due to overwhelming response, we're looking logistically of how we do that.
• 3:46
  Speaker 7: So anybody who's signing up we had two people today sign up for the conference and well, we had more than that sign up for the conference but we had two people sign up for the conference, two people in the same and two of them wanted in the Mayday workshop.
• 4:00
  Speaker 7: We're putting them on a waiting list and we're just telling them you know, if spots open up and we might, we're looking at how we might be able to do that.
• 4:08
  Speaker 7: So I think it's important, it's very important, right.
• 4:12
  Speaker 7: I mean people want to hear about it, they want to know.
• 4:14
  Speaker 7: I mean they want to hear that message, they want to hear the whole thing about Mayday Management first, starting with prevention.
• 4:20
  Speaker 7: But yeah, so we're looking at possibly opening that up again.
• 4:26
  Speaker 6: Well, that would be great.
• 4:27
  Speaker 6: Well, stay tuned for that.
• 4:28
  Speaker 6: In the meantime, get registered.
• 4:30
  Speaker 6: We want you to get that early bird pricing so you can go to hazardzonebccom and get you and your folks signed up ASAP so you don't miss out on the conference and or that early bird pricing.
• 4:43
  Speaker 6: So it's been a week, man.
• 4:45
  Speaker 6: We've had a lot of social media chatter and articles and you know, blue Card has traditionally been the center of some of this and this week we've gotten it as well.
• 4:59
  Speaker 6: But it's a position that we know that our system bothers some people.
• 5:06
  Speaker 6: I mean, it makes some people uncomfortable and it certainly.
• 5:10
  Speaker 6: I think a lot of times people who don't know the system and they're not educated on what it is.
• 5:16
  Speaker 6: They've made some preconceived notions about what it is.
• 5:19
  Speaker 6: So that's been interesting.
• 5:21
  Speaker 6: But that aside, there's also been a lot of chatter both about two in, two out, upcoming OSHA regulation changes.
• 5:28
  Speaker 6: So we thought we'd spend some time today talking about two in, two out, what it means to blue card, how we make that work within our command system, or maybe sometimes we don't make it work because we are a critical factor-based system.
• 5:44
  Speaker 6: So let's talk about that.
• 5:46
  Speaker 6: But I think let's go to the origin right now, why did we end up with two-in, two-out?
• 5:51
  Speaker 6: Where did that come from and how did that get established in the fire service?
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: So I can say, if I think about my historical perspective of it, when it showed up in the Phoenix fire department in 1998, I was a firefighter and I'm studying for the company officers test and I remember the implementation of it and it really creating a lot of questions like how the heck are we going to really do this?
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: And and then, and you know, having people working in the Phoenix Fire Department that were directly involved, including Chief Bernasini, in this development connected to NFPA 1500, you know it really kind of shined some light on what the intent was.
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: And I don't, and I'm not certain, I guess, if they truly knew what this was going to look like and what we were going.
• 7:02
  Speaker 5: Part of the intention of it was to, number one, identify that four firefighters is a necessary, important minimum staffing level for the American Fire Service, and then the two in and two out was built on that four-person minimum, four-person staffing and then somehow connecting a safety net or a safety system or a perceived safety net and safety system to the operational work that should be happening inside on the fire ground with regards to fire control and search and rescue and those types of things.
• 7:36
  Speaker 5: So I think in principle it had some reasonable ideas and established some expectations.
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: I think that kind of based on the way the fire service operates, that we overcomplicated it and we probably made it way more difficult on ourselves both in our interpretation, our writing, or maybe in multiple ways, our interpretation, the writing of our policies and then the implementation actually on the fire ground.
• 8:04
  Speaker 5: And so I know in Metro fire departments because I came from one of those departments is to in and to out was not a big part of our conversation past 1998, because we have a lot of resources and a lot of resources show up very quickly and it gets satisfied the intent of that anyway gets satisfied very, very quickly with with companies showing up, going level one, staging and, and that, and we clearly interpreted that as soon as somebody is level one you essentially have at least two out based on the work that you're having there, and then it becomes uh, then it becomes a, a mute point.
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: But I do know and and and I know better now because I work here right is, the vast majority of the American Fire Service is showing up with three or less firefighters on a daily basis and then it severely complicates their ability to actually do work based on critical factors, based on conditions, based on capability and capacity of those initial arriving firefighters.
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: And there are departments that and maybe rightfully so for people inside these, because of time, right, and so the longer we wait to put the fire out, the longer we wait to engage victims, the worse it is for everybody and maybe most importantly, for the life safety of the community right life safety of the community right.
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: So the intent, I think, was legit way back when, but the reality now, 26 years later, I'm not so sure that it accomplished everything that they had hoped and that's not a criticism, right, I think they had the best intent of the fire service at the time.
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: But okay, now what right?
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: And with OSHA opening back up the fire brigade standard evaluation and then some of the change in language that they're proposing for the two in and two out component of the fire brigade standard, I think there's some stuff to talk about there.
• 10:19
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that you know having the opportunity to talk to Chief Bruncini about you know some of the two in, two out stuff and where that came from and trying to push it through to get 1710 and trying to build a foundation Right so that people got that staffing.
• 10:35
  Speaker 7: I mean it was a great idea and it was a great way to try to push towards getting appropriate staffing on the apparatus.
• 10:46
  Speaker 7: But here we are, 26 years later and a large majority of the American fire service is losing people.
• 10:56
  Speaker 7: I mean I was on the phone with a large a chief from a large county fire department in Georgia and they're closing down fire companies and you know they're going to keep the staffing on the ones that are open.
• 11:09
  Speaker 7: But that's still going to have an impact on the timeliness of those people pulling up and their run volume continues to go up.
• 11:17
  Speaker 7: So I think there's probably a different look that we should have on the two-in, two-out and staffing and I'm just going to jump right to it.
• 11:31
  Speaker 7: The work we're able to do has to be tied back to the people that we have able to do the work.
• 11:36
  Speaker 7: We would love to be able to pull up and have five people on an engine and six people on a truck and the second engine's got five people, and all of that.
• 11:44
  Speaker 7: But for almost all of the American Fire Service but a few, that is not reality.
• 11:51
  Speaker 7: The reality is whether it's a county fire department or a bunch of suburban fire departments coming together, it's, chris, like you said, two or three person staffing and that's just the reality of it.
• 12:03
  Speaker 7: I'm not agreeing with it, I'm not saying that that's right, but that's the reality of what is happening.
• 12:07
  Speaker 7: And then they have to come together to try to put enough resource at an incident in a timely manner, as you addressed, with fire control and getting to victims, right.
• 12:20
  Speaker 7: And we know that that time frame for getting to victims is closing down.
• 12:24
  Speaker 7: It's getting smaller and smaller.
• 12:25
  Speaker 7: So we for 15 years teaching blue card, have been Not so that we didn't agree with two in, two out, but every time it came up in a class a lot of our Pacific Northwest folks would say you know, the two in, two out, police will show up in the state of Washington.
• 12:46
  Speaker 7: You know it was kind of a joke that they would say and we always said well, your second arriving piece is pulling up level one.
• 12:54
  Speaker 7: By the time you're, you know, probably getting your line to the front door in most cases and if they're not, then you know you probably have to reconsider, but that that that can be the answer to your two into out piece.
• 13:04
  Speaker 7: So, uh, I'm kind of I'm happy that this is coming up and I'm happy that it's being looked at and I'm happy that you know people are writing what they're writing about it and hopefully we can come out of all of this with some sort of a solution, not today but long-term, with everybody putting their minds together of what does the real staffing for the American Fire Service look like, what does it need to be and why are we really doing it?
• 13:28
  Speaker 6: And it needs to be for a reason, not just because Well, when you start talking about two and two out in the application of it, how does that work with our risk management model, depending on what we have and the critical factors?
• 13:44
  Speaker 6: What critical factors could we have that would maybe let us either know well, I'm not worried about the two in, two out right now or critical factors that say, you know which?
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: I think it's the world that most of us live in, that we have too much work here to do, that.
• 14:01
  Speaker 6: This incident is going to escalate exponentially unless we take care of these things right now.
• 14:06
  Speaker 6: But safety has got to be a factor in there somewhere.
• 14:10
  Speaker 6: So let's address that a little bit.
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: So I think that an interesting part of this is the way the two in and two out has existed up until this point.
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: There's victim, you've got somebody trapped right, and so then those were the caveats.
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: The way I'm interpreting the change to this is they're kind of taking away those caveats and really starting to hardline it, and you will wait regardless.
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: So that's one thing.
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: That number one, I think is concerning, because when we start to rigidly apply this stuff and over legislate fire ground tactics, it creates more problems.
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: Right, we'll be revisiting it again and I'll probably have less hair at that point about it just than I do now.
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: And then back to your original statement.
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: And so what does it actually mean?
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: That means that we actually have to have thinking firefighters, thinking company officers, thinking IC number one, and thinking IC number two is when they show up, because they have to be able to measure what's going on the fire ground.
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: You've got to actually understand what's going on, based on the conditions, the building integrity and that idea and the ability to actually forecast.
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: Okay, where's this going to be in a minute?
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: Where's this going to be in two or three minutes?
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: Where's it going to be if I don't act right now, how are the problems for me and the victims going to increase here in the early on and once we know and understand that, we tie that together in our system with critical factors and being able to identify those, and life safety is one of those critical factors.
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: And there's things, regardless of what anybody will say, that you know, you can, I guess you can take this idea of there everything's occupied, no matter what, until we say it isn't, and you could take that position.
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: Well, but if you're taking that position and you're not regarding the conditions and you're not regarding our actual ability to do something about it and survive that and survive part's kind of an important part, and we'll talk about that in a second right If we can't measure that, then we are going to put ourselves in some serious situations that we can't get ourselves out of.
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: And when we do that, we make the incident about us.
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: We do not make it about Mrs Smith, right?
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: We totally man, we are for them in the community and we'll do anything for them, right up until somebody hears mayday, mayday, mayday, and then it becomes the ultimate selfish endeavor on the fire ground.
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: We've seen it, we've experienced it, we know that that's the case, right.
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: So we've got to be able to do a good job at size up in the beginning and assessing what's going on and recognizing when life safety and things like that are actually critical.
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: And right now, and I can do something about it I can either grab the victim and remove them from the fire.
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: I can remove the fire from them one of the two but ultimately you need to get to the victim and get them out right one of the two but ultimately you need to get to the victim and get them out right.
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: If we don't do that and we don't assess that, then we have no ability to actually say we have a risk management plan or risk management process.
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: Because if we say if they're disconnected, if our critical factors and our risk management are disconnected, we are likely going to make bad strategy decisions and we're likely going to make bad decisions about what we should do about the problem on the fire ground.
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: So they have to be connected and we have to be realistic about asking honest questions about the life safety problem and simply not just assume it's there.
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: They're there no matter what, no matter the conditions, no matter any information, and somebody even said it in one of our classes lately.
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: We're really good at discounting certain information because of our biases and we're really good at taking certain other information as the gospel, based on our biases.
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: So I'm trying to avoid all that and just make a good decision in the moment, based on the conditions, based on the critical factor and applying what level of risk, how much risk are we willing to tolerate on the fire ground to get some work done right now?
• 18:46
  Speaker 6: And we hear a lot from people who have very robust staffing and they're arriving with four and five engines and a couple of trucks and they're loaded.
• 18:56
  Speaker 6: But the fact of the matter is, like Josh was alluding to, that most of the American Fire Service isn't that, and these scenes are so dynamic to have an always and a never and these hardline rules, because things change constantly.
• 19:11
  Speaker 6: Our staffing at my department right now is different at this moment than it will be at 5 o'clock this evening and we might go to places that are more rural where that second wave of help isn't going to be there for 10 or 15 minutes.
• 19:26
  Speaker 6: And I know as an IC it's very easy to make a decision like, yeah, we're going to go in when I can see on the MDT that I've got three units that are just a couple of minutes out, because by the time they get there we're going to be making entry and I know if there's a problem we're going to be able to address it.
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: I think about when this standard first came out.
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: Probably one of the worst ran fires that I ever personally ran was when we were trying to apply it literally and we had a bathroom fan fire and I had a captain who was like nope, we got to stay out until we get two more people here, cause we were running two person companies at my first chief's job, and I finally said it's a very small fire right now.
• 20:07
  Speaker 6: It's going to get bigger.
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: We need to get in there and we, after a little bit of conflict, we did.
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: But that was where we were 20 some years ago with literally applying the standard, versus what I think we're at right now is an interpretation that is kind of loose and based on critical factors a lot of times, at least in the blue card system, because in the blue card system we don't really tell people hey, you got to wait outside if you've got victims, or you got to wait outside if you've got an immediate fire problem.
• 20:37
  Speaker 6: We want to address and get water on that as aggressively and sensibly as possible.
• 20:43
  Speaker 7: Well, john, there's clearly a reason why in our system that we want to set up that first new company officer and give them all the tools to make decisions of what they're going to do plus what they're going to do with the next couple of companies, right?
• 20:56
  Speaker 7: So you know, we talk about that size up plus three.
• 20:59
  Speaker 7: So what does that really look like?
• 21:00
  Speaker 7: And so what am I going to do?
• 21:03
  Speaker 7: What am I going to do with the next two or three companies to solve this problem?
• 21:07
  Speaker 7: And you know, we know that we're running up against time, and whether it's the lays and dispatch that we see every single day, whether it's traffic, whether it's I can't do as much because I don't have as many people fire protection systems not alerting, not having fire, whatever, it is right, that's a time piece.
• 21:28
  Speaker 7: So you know, we have to be in a position where we're thinking, we're going through a process.
• 21:34
  Speaker 7: What are we going to do to solve the problem?
• 21:36
  Speaker 7: What is the biggest problem?
• 21:38
  Speaker 7: And then what am I going to do to take away the biggest problem for the biggest benefit?
• 21:44
  Speaker 7: And life safety is obviously a big deal and none of us can survive if we're not putting the fire out.
• 21:51
  Speaker 7: So that is a piece of it and we can coordinate that and work together.
• 21:55
  Speaker 7: That is a piece of it and we can coordinate that and work together.
• 21:57
  Speaker 7: And I think when you look at our past uh, audio from many podcasts that we've done, from victim rescues uh, you know, the first company gets there and they end up pulling somebody out of a window doing BES and they were.
• 22:11
  Speaker 7: And they told the second company hey, you're going to take first due duties, you're our lines already on the ground, just stretch it through the opposite side, right.
• 22:17
  Speaker 7: So it's that process of thinking and in that case, to the whole the whole writ rat fast all across the country.
• 22:40
  Speaker 7: You know some people took it, you know to heart, and if you were third due, you were writ, that's what you were going to do.
• 22:45
  Speaker 7: But as I've traveled for the last 15 to 20 years across this country, I hear over and over and over again oh, we were RIT until they needed us, and then it was we needed to go solve this problem.
• 22:59
  Speaker 7: And, chris, knowing what we know now about two in, two out, some of the stuff that Don Abbott wrote, some of the stuff that we know about RIT, we're solving the problem from the inside out most of the time anyway.
• 23:10
  Speaker 7: And then I think, when we circle it back around to the critical thinking and decision-making and truly evaluating factors and solving the problem, you know, I think it all lines back up to we have to be smart thinking firemen.
• 23:26
  Speaker 7: I mean, that's what it all comes down to.
• 23:28
  Speaker 7: We can't survive unsurvivable conditions, but we can also evaluate and understand what unsurvivable conditions are.
• 23:37
  Speaker 7: I think part of the problem becomes that bias.
• 23:40
  Speaker 7: What you said, chris, that sometimes it's that always and we're just going to do this no matter what.
• 23:45
  Speaker 7: And in my part of the country, when you crawl through the door and through the floor, it's over and because if it was a decision, it don't matter whether it's two people outside or not, it was over right then, right now.
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'm a little bit excited the fact that this discussion has brought to light Don Abbott's work in that discussion are now actually reading that because of the material that's being presented right now and I think that's a really, really good thing and it supports the conclusions that you know, we I don't want to say we lucked into but we didn't have any validation in 2002 to 2004 when we were doing them in the Phoenix fire department.
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: Now Don's stuff actually validates it with, you know, independently, without that.
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: You know that direct connection.
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: So it's it's pretty fantastic to know and understand Um, and it having this argument about getting rid of two and two out.
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: Um, uh, also, then there needs to be a continued conversation about RIC and rapid intervention, because I know in 2002 we said rapid intervention is not rapid and this our data, the Phoenix Fire Department data.
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: Now this data is demonstrating and has been demonstrating it actually for quite a while.
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: That conversation needs to be had right and continued on and and and totally separate from two in and two out.
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: Uh, the staffing question has to.
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: We can't just uh, uh, have a letter writing campaign to OSHA about our opinions about two in and two out, and then we go on our merry way uh, uh, thinking uh or accepting two and three person staffing across the American fire service is okay and it's a and it and it's an effective way to do work because it, because it isn't, and um and then and then having continued conversations about actual decision-making on the fire ground based on what is happening there, knowledge and experience connected to it and the real work that actually has to happen, and so it's not.
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: I love people think they know what it is, but they don't know what it is, and that actually creates some pretty extreme positions and pretty extreme biases, and that's just what we're experiencing these days.
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: Right, I don't think it's anything new and we just keep marching on and keep beating the drum, but I will tell you this the blue card system has supported best actions, best thinking on the fire ground, with the two in and two out standard or without the two in and two out standard, and so I really like the opportunity.
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: If not that, then what?
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: Well, I can talk about what in this system.
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: What would that be With a change?
• 26:55
  Speaker 6: Yes, If this was Stuart's world, where would we go with it, do you think Well?
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: first and foremost, I'm thoroughly aware that it is not Stuart's world.
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: My wife lets me know that regularly.
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: And then what do I think it should be?
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: I think it should be tied to decision-making and a decision-making process that's standardized for everybody, that can be demonstrated, trained and exercised and you can measure the performance on the fire ground.
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: And strategic decision-making right now is the only process I know that we have where you can actually do that, that it's consistent for everybody At least it's consistent for everybody in the blue card system 40,000 firefighters and 4,000 fire departments and that's in spite of what the knitting circles on the social media want to say, right.
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: So that's the thinking part of that.
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: That's what I would like OSHA to do.
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: I'm not so sure how OSHA writes that into a standard other than to say you have to have a decision-making process that meets these critical criteria in order to do that, and if you don't, then you have to follow a rigid do this, or else I don't know really of any other way to do it and I don't know of a common sense, logical approach to it outside of that.
• 28:22
  Speaker 7: We want all these rules.
• 28:24
  Speaker 7: Some people want all these rules.
• 28:26
  Speaker 7: Some people want all the rules when it's convenient for them or when they can make a big deal about it, and I know that this is a sensitive thing for places and people and I can't look any one day and not see it.
• 28:40
  Speaker 7: And I get it, it's a big deal.
• 28:42
  Speaker 7: But the whole PFAS thing right we are, it is everywhere, every day A post about it.
• 28:52
  Speaker 7: Now, just here locally in Cincinnati, they just posted something about PFAS and the drinking water systems and what does that mean?
• 28:58
  Speaker 7: Right, and I mean I get it, it's important, it's critical, it's a big deal.
• 29:02
  Speaker 7: And what we're talking about with two in, two out is a is a staffing thing.
• 29:07
  Speaker 7: Right, and there's so many things been written about staffing and I don't know why, but for one reason or another we will not push the staffing piece as hard as we do anything else, and I mean it should be a big deal for us, right, and I think it's written out.
• 29:30
  Speaker 7: You know, the staffing that we need for a 1500 square foot house fire isn't the staffing that I need for a three-story wood frame apartment building on fire, isn't the staffing that I need when I got a strip mall on fire, isn't the staffing for a nursing home on fire?
• 29:43
  Speaker 7: And the list goes on and on and on.
• 29:45
  Speaker 7: And you know the two in two out really is.
• 29:48
  Speaker 7: It doesn't address any of that.
• 29:50
  Speaker 7: It just, you know, is the two in two out piece, not why, how, what.
• 29:57
  Speaker 7: You know none of that.
• 29:59
  Speaker 7: But if we were going to do something and have something that was in place, then the American Fire Service would never go for it, because we all want rules and we want it our way, until somebody tells us what we're going to do and then we're like, oh hell, no, you're not going to, we're not doing that, Definitely not, right.
• 30:17
  Speaker 7: But anything else out there that involves any kind of risk, like we do, has some sort of a staffing piece.
• 30:26
  Speaker 7: And you know we can always take it back to the airline industry, right?
• 30:29
  Speaker 7: They don't decide today that the person who's the lead on a crew that's going to push the plane back, that we're just going to go ahead and push the plane back with the guy who fills the water tank today because the other guy didn't show up.
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: It don't happen.
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: And the American Fire Service has accepted that.
• 30:48
  Speaker 7: We just figure out and make it work.
• 30:49
  Speaker 7: And I think that's just who we are, and we're there for Mrs Smith and we're going to make it work right, but if we're going to talk about two in, two out and we're going to talk about all these other things you know in my world then why don't we start talking about real staffing and right-sizing all of our organizations to provide the service that we're being asked to provide?
• 31:09
  Speaker 7: Instead, we just keep on taking it on our backs.
• 31:15
  Speaker 7: Right, we just do it, we just make it work, and I think that we're seeing the impact now of us doing that over the last 20 or 25 years, of we just make it work, so they just keep on giving us more, or we just keep agreeing and taking on more and then we just pick what we want to fight about, and it's usually not the things that matter the most.
• 31:44
  Speaker 7: Well said.
• 31:48
  Speaker 6: You guys have anything else on this topic two in, two out.
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: Where are we going?
• 31:51
  Speaker 6: I mean, where, where do you think we'll be sitting after the socia standard comes out?
• 31:55
  Speaker 6: Because the the way that I read it is really four in, four out right.
• 31:59
  Speaker 6: Is that?
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: Am I taking that the right way?
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: Or, if that standard goes through, or?
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: that's my interpretation, but again, it doesn't.
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: So if you have eight in, do you have eight out, like it doesn't.
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: It doesn't uh connect very well in a logical formula?
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: For that, you know it doesn't.
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: You know I, I'll uh, I'll go with uh a nick and a garrison thing.
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: The silverback thing is it's got to be connected to the work.
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: So if we're going to start talking about what it actually takes for effective fire control, effective search and rescue, effective loss control and then integrating some type of system that keeps us safe, from decision making to roles and responsibilities on the fire ground, then then let's have a real conversation about it and then let's not say we don't have a standard, but you have to show up and have this many people in.
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: If you have this many people inside, you have to have this many people outside, because it doesn't mean shit really when it comes down to it.
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: It doesn't actually make us safer or more reasonable.
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: So I think, I think there's got to be a conversation.
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: I was thinking, as Josh was talking, american Airlines doesn't get to decide because of staffing or financial issues or whatever challenges they may have as an organization.
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: That you know what I know.
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: The FAA says there needs to be a pilot and a co-pilot, but we don't have it today, so we're just going to run with a co-pilot man, the fire service.
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: We'll do that in a second right, and so Bruno did.
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: Well, bruno taught me a hundred things that I use regularly, but one of them was if we don't effectively manage it, somebody will.
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: And I see OSHA getting irritated at firefighter fatalities.
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: I think they're getting irritated at the accountability, and I don't mean accountability like fines and criminal and all that other stuff.
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: I mean accountability, for we just keep doing the same thing over and over.
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: You know, niosh is not writing new ways.
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: We're dying, and so they're trying to legislate it, and if we don't take them seriously, they're going to legislate it for us and it's going to make it harder for us and it's going to likely could make us less effective, because we didn't manage it and we let folks in and around Washington DC manage it for the rest of us.
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: And that's not a I don't know, that's a world that includes real solutions.
• 34:43
  Speaker 6: All right, let's do a timeless tactical truth Now Bernasini's timeless tactical truth.
• 34:57
  Speaker 6: You must be consistent.
• 34:59
  Speaker 6: You cannot select in out based on safety, convenience or difficulty.
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: You can't run when it gets ugly.
• 35:09
  Speaker 7: Chris, I think the whole decision-making thing, that's every bit of this.
• 35:13
  Speaker 7: But the whole thing starts with us having to be professionals and make decisions and we claim this is a profession and I think we need to get back to that and we have to focus on that.
• 35:24
  Speaker 7: And there's more to this job than one little piece.
• 35:28
  Speaker 7: And as you get promoted higher, you know you have to train for those positions and part of that training helps us with the decision making piece and we tie that with, you know, with with experience.
• 35:42
  Speaker 7: So how do we, how do we get consistent?
• 35:51
  Speaker 7: And then how do we put ourselves in a position so we don't have to run from something Cause it got ugly?
• 35:54
  Speaker 7: And I think it comes back to, uh, you know, the training and experience piece and giving people the tools.
• 36:00
  Speaker 7: And uh, I just saw it again this morning, I seen the last few days.
• 36:04
  Speaker 7: I think it's from fire rescue one that 70% of the people surveyed had less than 24 hours of size up or incident command training ongoing size up or incident command training.
• 36:18
  Speaker 7: This may be an extreme example, but I just heard this week two people just went to a car seat installation refresher class and it was 24 hours and I get it's a liability, but, uh, I get it that we've taken that on.
• 36:39
  Speaker 7: But you know, incident command is more than the white hat guy who used to stand in the front yard who now hopefully sits in the car.
• 36:47
  Speaker 7: You know it's all these other levels and it starts with that first due company officer.
• 36:50
  Speaker 7: And we're only consistent when we all train in the same way and are all held to the same expectations and we have a standard way that we do things.
• 37:00
  Speaker 7: And, chris, I think you're the program, that we're, that we're doing the critical thinking decision making class, I think ties all of those things here together.
• 37:12
  Speaker 7: That's my two cents on it.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: I'm tracking completely.
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: When I read this, the standard conditions, standard action, standard outcome slide popped in my head right.
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: And so the connection point to the standard conditions and the standard actions are we're not going to make stuff up on the fire ground.
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: We're going to have a standard, consistent process in evaluating the fire ground, determining what matters right now, what doesn't matter, and then we're going to engage in a standard set of actions right that are based in our fundamentals and our training.
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: Now, does that mean that we can we're not going to show up and see stuff that we've never seen before and maybe have to do something that we never have actually had to do previously?
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: But the fundamentals of doing all that stuff is tied to the way we normally do things.
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: We're going to connect it together in maybe a different way or a different sequence or a different order, but it's built in all in the same fundamentals.
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: So that consistency in evaluation and measuring the problem, the consistency in standardization and how we attack the problem, that gives us that standard outcome.
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: And that standard outcome we're looking for is doing the absolute best we can for Mrs Smith in managing her fire, managing her and managing her stuff to the best of our ability and and we've got to survive doing it.
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: When we don't survive doing it, there is a huge cost.
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: There's a cost at the incident, there's a cost long term to the community and there's a cost long term to the fire department and the fire service.
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: So we've got to minimize that and we've got to be ready to go to work to the next one.
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: If we're busy screwing around with maydays and firefighters injured and all that, that decreases our response capacity in the moment to our community.
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: So we've got to be able to survive that.
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: So that consistency thing and you can't run when it gets ugly that's what I'm thinking about when that shows up.
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: All right, gentlemen, great discussion today.
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: I appreciate you being here.
• 39:31
  Speaker 6: I think we're going to continue to watch this two in, two out.
• 39:35
  Speaker 6: It's going to continue to be some discussion, I'm sure, in some of our workshops and classes here on the podcast and in the B-Shifter Buck Slip, as we go forward and continue to monitor it and really trying to do what's best all the time for Mrs Smith.
• 39:48
  Speaker 6: Guys, have a good day.
• 39:50
  Speaker 6: Thank you so much for being here today.
• 39:53
  Speaker 7: Thanks, john, we'll see you soon, thank you.