Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Tunde Adebimpe

Transcript

Tunde Adebimpe · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Tunday at Abimpe is a creative powerhouse. He's a cartoonist,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: a painter, a director, a Hollywood actor, and for the
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: past twenty years, he's been the lead singer of the
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: band TV on the Radio. His latest offering, another of
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: his many artistic pursuits, is a solo project called The
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Black Bolts. Tunday began writing these songs back in twenty nineteen,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: and after a stint composing music for the PBS kids
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: show City Island with producer Wilder Zobie, the two decided
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: to set their sights on Tunday's growing collection of solo songs.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Bul Chu, Leo Bunten and Joah Fittlandis of TV on
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: the Radio also contributed to the album, which sounds every
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: bit as fresh and thrilling as Tunday's past work. On
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: today's episode, Lea Rose talks to Tunday out A Bempe
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: about how stain steeped in creative projects keeps him sane.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: He also recalls his day's work and as a stop
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: motion artists on MTV Celebrity Deathmatch, and why he thinks
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: TV on the Radio isn't cool enough to be considered
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: INDI sleas this is broken record, real musicians, real conversations.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Here's Leah Rose's conversation with Tunday out of Bempe.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: So I have I have a theory about how you
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: came to record to finally put out this solo album.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: So I saw that in the not so distant past
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: you learned how to mix, how to master, how to produce,
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: and you started sort of like messing around in ableton
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: and you know, you had been in TV on the
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: radio for over twenty years, So was was you learning
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: how to technically use those tools? Was that what kind
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: of like pushed you to do your own project?
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Not exactly. I think I went into that.
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: I went to this, yeah, this place a friend taught
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: at this school dub Spot, which I think has gone now,
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: and did some you know, just just kind of getting
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: my head around able to end mixing and mastering.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: And I think it was more so.
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't have to wait for us all get together
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: while I was making something as a band, and I
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: could just be like send people stuff and be like
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: here's a stronger basis for this and you can fuck
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: around with it or do whatever. But I will also
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: say that one of the things that experience taught me of,
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: at least as far as the mixing and mastering end
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: of it, is that like, I absolutely am not the
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: person who should be doing that with any of my
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: own stuff. I can do it, but it's it would
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: take me. There are things that you know, I'm working
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: with Wilder right now.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Who is just.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: He is however he would put it, I'm telling you
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: that he's he's He's a person who's fluent, you know,
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: doing that. And I'm a person who, like, if I
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: am pushed to, I will sit there and do it myself.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: But it is not it's not that end of it
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: is not like I'm more a person who's making tons
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: and tons and tons of voice notes and then taking
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: those and making demos from them and right and then
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: kind of like sitting with someone and fleshing things out
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: and leading, you know.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Like I feel like the it's it's a skill to
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: to tag in the right people.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: Forever, yeah, and just be like you were great at that,
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: You're great at that, You're great at that, and I
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: want you to do that, you know, in conjunction with
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: this with.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: This p.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So how did you meet Wilder? What
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: have you known him for a while or how did
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: that relationship?
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and then Wilderford for a really really long time.
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: I think we probably met like nineteen ninety eight or something.
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: I just had a lot of mutual friends and just
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: bands playing around in New York like Brooklyn on the
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: Lower East Side, but have just been like, you know,
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: really been friends forever and it never worked together. And
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: he you know, he does a lot of work with
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: Run the Jewels and other projects, and actually got a
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: gig doing a soundtrack for a kids show on PBS
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: called City Island. One of my my degenerate animator friends
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: from MTV as we all grew up is now just
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: an incredibly h generous and peaceful and wonderful person who
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: wants to put good things into the end of the
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: world and made an awesome kids show to soundtrack it.
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: And so I kind of I called Wilder to kind
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: of like you know, the split the there's a lot
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: of a lot of music, and just said, would you
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: want to like work on this.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Thing with me?
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: And we started doing that just as as a gig,
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: and just kind of halfway through it, i'd been you know,
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: I put these demos that I've been working on for
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: my own thing of these songs that I thought could
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: turn into something else aside, and I started thinking about
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: them again and I just let him know. I was
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: just like, if you want to tribe something on some
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: of these, please be my guest, and you know, just
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: like another thing to do. And he worked on two
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: songs and sent them to me, just like even in
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: the most like skeletal form, and I basically was like,
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: if if we can do this entire record ourselves together
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: right here, because it was funny because we developed this
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: working relationship. This is kind of nine to five get
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: we gotta get these notes in, like we got to
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: do all this stuff for PBS kids. Yeah, so then
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: it was a pretty natural jump to just working on
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: these songs together kind of with the same attitude. The
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: funny thing of working for a show or SOUNDTRACKINGCAU someone's like,
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: you know, someone will call you about something you spend
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: two days working on. Just be like this is great,
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: except all of it's wrong and you have to have
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: to change everything, and you just realize very quickly that
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: you can't get attached to anything. You just have to
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: It's hard, but again, it's also kind of freeing in
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: a way because you're it's this thing of like as
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: long as it sounds right in the end. The there's
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: a lot of hold up I find, either recording with
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: the band or just other projects, there can be a
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: lot of pausing going like ah, I'm not sure about this,
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: Like you know, it's not even before something's done. There
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: can be a lot of hesitation and I feel.
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: So that's definitive feedback.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, definitive feedback.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: And it's also sort of like I know that this
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: can go a million different ways and none of them
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: are wrong and none of them are right. It's just
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: kind of like, you know, do something, does it feel okay?
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: Not sure about it? Step away for a bit. But
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: also we had a while working on the record, we
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: had a code for going back in and working on
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: something or leaving it alone, and it was the code
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: was is this dry paint or is this wet paint?
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: And there were it's great to have someone to bounce
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: something off of where you're like, no, I really want
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: to go back and fix that, and they're sort of like,
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: I think it's dry paint. And then you got to
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: walk around for a second and just come back and
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: be like, actually you're right, I don't need to mess
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: with that. And it's fine that I feel a little
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: uncomfortable about it, because we'll see that's the whole part
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: of putting something out too, is like that's it's for
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: It's a circuit for someone else to complete in a
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: lot of ways. Yeah, right, Like this is this all
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: these spots on the record that I'm not sure about.
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: First off, no one's ever going.
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: To know, no one, Yeah no.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: And also, like when you're talking about engineering, like I
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: wonder if I'm sort of fascinated by engineering because I
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: don't think I have the tools to really distinguish, you know,
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: like if something you know, people listen to albums like
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: oh this is mixed so well, and I'm like, oh yeah,
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: Like I wonder if if you were to just mix
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: the album, like would it sound wildly different? But now
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: you know, because you sort of have you've seen the
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: back end.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, if I were first off, it was if
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: it was just going to be me mixing it, it
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: wouldn't be done by no, it would just be it
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: just would not and it wouldn't be good. I'm just
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: I'm safely I can safely say.
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: I'm not like it would be muddy, or.
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: It would be muddy, and it would be I would
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: scrap a lot of things out of frustration that someone
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: who just that wilder would be like, no, just do
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: this and this and this and keep working on it
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: and it's done.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So I think most of the stuff that I
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: was uncertain about on the record between the two of
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: us would be more kind of aesthetic choices. Yes's sort
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: of like, I don't know if this.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: With me.
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: Sometimes it would be lyrics and I would just say, like,
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: I like, I'm eighty percent on these lyrics, thinking like
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: this all lands really well for me and makes some
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: kind of sense because you know, you say with something
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: forever and you're sort of like, are these words anymore?
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: Oh totally.
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: But it's but again, it's like there's some things where
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: you're sort of I feel like with TV on the radio,
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: I would sit there for a very long time and
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: to obsess over certain things lyrically, just because it's there
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: was a there was something I don't know that was
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: that was a mode of being in all of that,
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: Whereas with this, I feel like I didn't obsess a
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: lot about things, and if I felt myself going in
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: to do that because ultimately it also doesn't really matter
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: that much at.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: The Yeah, exactly, it's me here. Yeah.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: And also I feel like with TV on the radio,
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: it was sort of after a point you realize you're
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: writing something that you're gonna have to sing literally hundreds
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: of times, and so kind of like which is a
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: bad way for me. I would say that's a bad
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: way to think about writing anything, you know, like anticipating
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: the torture of like saying this stuff that you thought
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: was stupid before you recorded it, and now you're like, now
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: it's stupid in public and it's great.
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: Well, is there anything any songs that now when you're
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: performing them hundreds of times that you're like, oh, I
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: wish that I would have changed that.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: There are two answers, and both of them are no.
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: The first first, the first part of it is I
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: think I've been and it's worked out.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I don't we don't play those songs.
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: Oh good call, you just don't.
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: Play and there but there are a couple of songs
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: where just on stage, if I had a lyric that
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: I thought was better that I never recorded, I'll just
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: sing that one.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Oh it doesn't matter.
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: Great, Yeah, feel those are two brilliant fixes.
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, don't do it or bend reality.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: Yes, I wanted to ask you about the title the
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: Black Bolts.
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: How did you come upon that?
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: I came upon it just it just came out of
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: a lot of free writing. I'll just write, like just
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: to shake the shake the garbage can or the brain
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: out in the morning, just free write whatever and look
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: at it a few weeks later and think, are these lyrics?
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Is this nothing? Am I crazy? Whatever?
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: And that was in there and the essentially it's the
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: idea of a point of illumination in some heavy darkness,
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: and the idea of lightning actually realized, like a lot
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: of the songs ended up having this this mentioned of
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: lightning or theme of lightning, and started to feel like
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: the Black Bolts are. There is a spark of inspiration
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: that can come in the middle of a very heavy
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: time or a depression or events that kind of seemed
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: to you know, obscure, obscure the good things from from
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: your sight, but you know the whole You know, thunderclouds
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: can generate bolt of electricity that illuminates the whole landscape
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: and for at least for a second, you can see,
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: like the beauty and it the tragedy in it, you know,
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: all aspects of it, and maybe maybe feel better about
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: the you know, and actually appreciate that that darkness of
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: it too.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it made me think it's very evocative, the title,
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: and it made me think that maybe you're making a
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: metal album.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I would. I mean, that's the other part of it.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: As I was kind of finishing it up, I was like,
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: this is a very good name for a metal band. Yeah,
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: and maybe I'm a metal band.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Now. Maybe that's fat to do, but yeah, now I
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: feel like it's.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: A it's a good It definitely works, and it stuck
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: as something that was like a good Like I think
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: I before I even started putting songs in order or
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: knew that I was making a record, I kind of
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: had that as the a guiding a guiding theme and
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: guiding set away.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's cool.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: What is the feeling in you when you realize like, oh, okay,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: I'm about to put out an album.
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: Are you excited? Are you nervous? Are you a little bit?
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: Do you get self conscious.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: With this? I feel like.
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: I was around it for so long because it just
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: kind of got done and kind of and fits and starts.
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: I've been working on it from the end of twenty
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: nineteen until last spring. Wow, I feel like just you know,
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: with a lot of interruptions, but I feel like that's
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: kind of the timeline of all of those songs being created.
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: So I right now, I just feel relieved that it's
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: actually going to, you know, get away from me and
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: out into the world. Can kind of see what that does.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: And I feel like again, another part of working on
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: it for such a long time is that I'm not
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: too attached or detached from any of the songs or
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: the record. I just feel like it's a really it
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: has the feeling of we made something that feels like
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: a really good gift, and now it's time to give
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: it away and it's up to.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Whoever gets it.
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: Whoever gets it physically or mentally or emotionally, it's for them. No.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: After quick break, we're back with more from Leo Rose's
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: conversation with Tundai out of Binbai.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of life that happens between twenty nineteen
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: and now. Oh totally was there like seasons in your life?
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Are things you were going through that are you know,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: whether it's like personally or professionally that showed up on
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: this album for you.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, definitely the I mean, the biggest thing was.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: Basically I started writing these demos in twenty nineteen when
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: TV on the Radio took a break, and then when
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: I started to really get into it and decide like, Okay,
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna maybe look around for some producers to collaborate
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: with or some folks that collaborate with the pandemic hit
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: and it was kind of like, I'm not looking around
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: to do anything with anybody because everybody's freaked out and
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: at home trying to figure things out. So that was
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: kind of a rocky beginning to that. But during that time,
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: you know, wrote a couple of songs and edging into
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: the end of twenty twenty, had shopped some things around.
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: Like nobody wanted to do anything because I think there
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: was a lot of uncertainty, But there were a lot
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: of labels who were kind of like, yeah, we're not
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: really trying to get anybody on our label right now.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: We don't know what's going to I think it was
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: the uncertainty about touring and how people would like make
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: a return on their investment. But that was definitely a
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: that was a humbling experience. It was like, oh right,
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: it's not two thousand and eight. Nobody cares nobody, nobody
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: cares about what I'm making and that's fine, which is fine,
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: but you know, kind of got it together, put some
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: more demos together, and thought about Subpop because they are
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: one of the labels that made me deeply interested in music,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: and also.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Just the really.
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: Foundational feeling of you can you don't have to be
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: of virtuo, so you can make whatever you want, just
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: finish it. You know, it's kind of the the mode
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: and you also you know, it's it's very expansive.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a lot of teenage teenage.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: Jet fuel from Subpop for me and Yeah, so we
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: finally called them and they essentially said, it'd be so
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: great to work with you. We wanted to work with
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: you and the band forever, which was not a piece
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: of information that made it to me until I was
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: talking to them. I was just like, if you if
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: I'd known that, like, you know, a long while ago,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: it probably would have happened. So they were really very
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: down for it, and two weeks after I signed with
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: them and they were, you know, into making the record.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: My sister, my younger sister passed away very very suddenly,
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: like out of nowhere, and this is the person who,
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: I will say, without any hesitation, was like easily the
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: most important person to me in my life, you know,
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: like sorry everyone, sorry, everybody else. Yeah, that's that's the
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: that's the the case. Sorry, yeah, thank you.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It was heavy, you know, really a bizarre thing.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: She was not you know, was not ill, was not
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: There was no lead up to it, so that, you know,
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: going from I've got this record to make, I just signed,
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: and like people are expecting something in a matter of
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: months going to I don't want to do anything like
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: at all. I have to actually stop doing almost anything
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: and just kind of you know, like regroup and take
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: some time, you know, to actually process a lot of that,
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: because that was one of those things, you know, and
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: during I think people had a lot of time to
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: think in the thicker pandemic.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Of just like what is my.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: Life still and think and have and they're they're also
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: I think during that time there were a couple of
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: other losses that I hadn't really processed that had happened
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: in the last ten years, and I realized I hadn't
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: really processed them because I was essentially in this band
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: that was putting out a record and going on tour
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: and putting out a record and going on tour, putting
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: out a record and going on tour, and then pandemic
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: hits and this big loss hits, and it's a lot
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: of just kind of not I don't know if not
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: running away is the right way to put it, but
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: just suddenly having time and in that, you know, in
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: the negative space of that time, all of this stuff
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: comes rushing in and you have there's no opportunity for
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: you to not think about it. So that was a
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: big My sister passing was a big thing. But the
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: other side of that is, you know, this person is
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: such a humongous inspiration to me. The thing that they
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: would want me to do, Yes, to keep going and
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: and writing and do yeah, do the thing that like,
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: you know, my sister also was a musician and and acted,
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: and just do the thing that bonded over and keep going.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: And she would be like, don't you can't. You cannot
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: fucking quit because then you would be a loser. She's like,
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: and we are not losers.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: We don't.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: Our family doesn't do that. So there's this There is
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: a song on the on the record that's dedicated to her.
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: The record is dedicated to her and and to other
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: family members.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: That which song is that I can see the track
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: list on Spotify.
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: It's all great out. We can't hear it, but we
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: can see it.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: It's the song it's just called It's called il y
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: just I love you.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, very very simple note to her and
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: to thank you to her.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: So how has the grief evolved now that it's you've
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: had a little bit of time, You know.
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: If you've experienced it pretty significant loss, you know that
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: it doesn't it just it gets better in some ways.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: But more than that, I think it just changes and
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: it it sinks. It sinks into a place where it's
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: on the level as on the same level as the
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: positive memories of this person or the positive aspects of
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: of your life. But I will say that making something
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: that feels like you're you know, that's a tribute to
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: these people that you love, or an offering to these people,
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: to the spirits of these people that you that you
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: love and lost, is it really? At least for me,
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: is was very therapeutic. And I don't I don't think.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: I don't think art always has to be that at all,
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: but in this case, for me, it definitely, it definitely was,
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: you know, and it was something to do besides the
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: any number of horrible things that you could be doing
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: to yourself totally to avoid pain or grief.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, No, being constructive and continuing to work seems like
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: it could have a big benefit.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: And it seems like you have like a really healthy
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: work ethic, And it sounds like your sister did as well.
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: She definitely more than me. But yeah, when I get
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: around to it, I've got I've got a.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Pretty health Yeah.
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: Where do you think the drive comes from?
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: I feel like it's kind of like what else am
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: I gonna do? There's a lot of it. And I
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: think if you conditioned yourself to put your whether you
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: know you're doing it or not.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: To put your.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: Messy feelings or bombastic feelings or basically any way, that
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: you kind of can't be in this Like you can't
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: run around screaming your head off about you know, how
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: wronged you've been, you know, by someone, or how excited
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: you are, or how you can revel in the nonsense
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: of this world and events and people and feelings. But
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: I think if you just through making art, if you
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: kind of if that's your way of processing the world
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: or making yes, that's your anchor in the world, is
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: to be like at least I can write it down,
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: or at least I can draw it, or at least
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: I can get a few friends together and make a
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: short film about it. Then all of it kind of
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: makes sense. All of the shit that doesn't make sense,
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: this is a place for it to make its own.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Kind of sense.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: When you guys, So, when TV on the Radio first
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: started making music together, how long did it take for
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: you to sound like TV on the Radio?
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: I feel like it's debatable because I I feel like
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: there's so many different ways to sound like TV on
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: the Radio and it kind.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Of kept evolving.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: It did.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll keep evolving.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: But you know, the first thing that came out under
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: the name TV on the Radio is pretty like probably
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: a few months after Dave and I met Dave Sidek.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: When I met, we both had all these four track
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: tapes just weirdo stuff that we'd made, and when that
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: was kind of our point of like, you know, meeting
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: and friendship is that we were both painters and both
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: like made silly four track stuff or not so silly
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: four track stuff. And that was a compilation of that
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: four track stuff, which was all over the place and
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: some songs that were a little more I guess, like
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: quote unquote produced that we made together. And to me
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: that sounded like TV on the radio. It's like, this
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: can be recorded in a basement with like one mic,
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: or it can be recorded in like a super cheap
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: studio with you know, equipment present. And then and then
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: with the Young Liar's EP, it got more real bandy yeah,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: and that to me is also like you know, that's
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: to me, I guess would be the a solid a
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: solid version of the first iteration of a TV on
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: the radio sign and then desperate youth. Like we didn't
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: know what we were doing, so it was kind of like, is.
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: That why there's like two titles for the album?
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, yeah, it's that, And just like I feel
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: like in a lot of ways, it was a step
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: backwards because we didn't know what we were doing. Not
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: in a bad way really, but just like kind of
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: in a way of like, well what are we doing?
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: Because we went from working occasionally on this thing that
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: turned into an EP that might have been a longer record,
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: except that someone heard it and wanted to put it
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: out and then yeah, they're like, we're giving you a
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: record deal, so let's make the next thing right now,
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: and we're sort of like, I don't know what that is.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know how to you know, Like.
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: At least my my observation from it was there was
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: a certain amount of new panic about what needed to
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: happen and ideas about what it should be, and all.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: Of that was that like inner band conversations or from
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: the outside.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I think from both.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: Just what should this be now instead of just making
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: it and saying that's what it is, you know, because
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: what should this be? As a real waste of time, yeah,
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: you don't know.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: But then after that.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Cookie Mountain became that's when you know, we we we
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: locked in. We locked ourselves in and we locked in,
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: and then that turned into a new iteration of the sound.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: But I, you know, I guess I would I would
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: probably say, like the first EP was pretty pretty locked
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: down at least on on the recordings.
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: Did you do you like it? The first EP?
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: I really liked it?
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, which was no, it was and it's a real
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: you know it marks a certain spot in time, just
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: like emotionally and yeah, just feeling feeling wise, it's I
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: actually haven't listened to I haven't listened to anything that
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: we've done in its entirety, Like I'll listen to it
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: when it's done being mixed and mastered probably I'll listen
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: to everything the whole way through, but I haven't looked,
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: so I haven't listened to Young Liars like since in
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: its entirety since it came out, But.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: So why not just like throw it on one day?
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Like it's what's the why not listen to it?
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Because I feel like that you know that the touch
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: was that.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: There's a Christopher Walking Home movie is it the Dead
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: Zone where touches people and suddenly like flood of emotions
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: and like you can see everything that's happened to them
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: and will happen to them. It's kind of like that
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: where it's like, oh, something like oh this is good,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: and then I'll like hear one thing and just be like, oh,
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: what a terrible time that was where I did this
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: and did that and all that.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: But it's less and less. But if I hear it
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: when it's on, if it's on somewhere.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I'm never like, I'm very rarely am I
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: cringing about it?
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: Oh that's good.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, But I like I like the fact that we,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: you know, we got it together and made this thing
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: that didn't I know that people just like, you know,
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: it's like, well, doesn't sound like anything else. And I
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: was like, but that's the point, Like, no one should
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: sound like anything else.
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: It's so good.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: But it's it was also so good be able to make,
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: you know, get it together with your friends and make
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: something that sounded like good and fresh and new to
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: and honest, you know.
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: To you and you knew it was fresh and new
• 30:05
  Speaker 5: when you were making it. Did you have perspective?
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Will? The perspective was kind of.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: And it was weird because it was I think the
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: perspective was it was very shortly after September eleventh that
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: we started making that would ended up being that EP,
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: And I think the deal was this is the this
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: is the most important thing to us right now, is
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: that we can we can create this reality that we
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: can swim in and live in and like energize ourselves with.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: So it was a you know, for as much of
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: a whatever that whatever mood that that EP puts people in.
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: It was definitely it was an odd kind of pick
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: me up for all of us to work This is
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: you know, this is something something we have control over
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: and it's also something that like we can do anything with.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: So that was a real that's that's that feeling was
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: inspiring working on.
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: Oh, totally. Yeah, empowering.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a similar to what you were saying about
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: the grief with your new album is having sort of
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: some you know, like a creative life raft at the time,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: something to focus on and something to pour you know,
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: pour yourself into and.
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: Process emotion through.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's awesome. That's a great thing, great thing to have.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: I saw when I was just like getting ready for
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: this interview, I saw that Spotify, you know, Spotify makes
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: different playlists and they have a cover image for the playlists,
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: and I saw that TV on the Radio is the
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: cover image for the Indie Sleeves playlist. Really, yes, right now?
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: What does that make sure it's your new it's a
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: new promo picture.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Is it a black and white picture?
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: Might be.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: That's where the we're the delegates from Indie Sleeves.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: Yes, So I'm wondering now that, like, you know, I
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: don't know if you saw that yacht.
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: Rock documentary, No, I want to.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: It's really great, but it turns out a lot of
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: people who were considered yacht rock, which is a term
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: that was made up by like a online comedy group,
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: a lot of the people who are in that category,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: that that genre, you know, don't like that, don't like
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: that classification. So I'm wondering for you now, sitting where
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: you're sitting, like, how does how does Indi Sleis sit
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five?
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: And was it even real? Is it a thing?
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't Yeah, I don't know.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: I uh, It's really it's interesting to me because I
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: think when you're in something, it's also very odd because
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: you like, I'll never have the bird's eye view of
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: someone who, like, twenty years later can look at whatever
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: set of images, whatever set of songs or records or
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: you know, the first person accounts or rock critic reviews, like,
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: I'll never have that overview. It kind of just my
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: overview is I started making stuff with my friends, and
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: we went to see other friends who made stuff with
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: their friends.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we all.
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: And no one had a cell phone there wasn't any internet.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: We got to we got to kind of we had
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: really cheap rent and got to make things. Yeah, but
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: I personally don't feel like our band was cool enough
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: to be part of the indie sleeves.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: See. I just don't. I don't. I didn't see it.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: But there's also one of those things where people talk
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: about Electroclash, and I feel like the Electroclash movement was
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: like five weekends at this bar called Luxe and then
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: it was that was it.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: It was over, you know, but it was.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: This holding just like Electroclash, like you know, blew through
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: Blue through New York.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: It was this huge movement.
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: I was like, at least Williamsburgers.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: So I don't know, it is it's it's funny, it is.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: It's funny to me to see that that's a thing
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: because it makes me think about it makes me think
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: about Seattle and Grudge and or.
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: Even like the Summer of Love.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: You know, that was also a pretty short period that
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: is like, oh my gosh, we're still talking about it.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: And we're still talking about it, and I don't.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, and I'm sure like if you talk to
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: someone from when that was happening. They can give you
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: a list of you know, you felt like something was
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: going on, but it's also the I feel like with
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: us and our and I'm you know, I guess like
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: speaking from myself, but the feeling that all of that
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: stuff was active and alive and fleet and not something
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: that like like we're making the stuff that we're gonna
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: preserve in a glass case and it's gonna stand the
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: test of time. Like I feel like it was very
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: much this is immediate moment to moment.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: After one last quick break, we're back with the rest
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: of Leo Rose's conversation with Tunday out of Bemba.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: I'm sure you you are aware of this, but Wolf,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: like me, was playing at the Super Bowl.
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, now, I heard a friend told me that too,
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: which is was it in a It's It's weird. It's
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: one of those things where you'll get an email like
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: like three or four years ago or something saying just
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: like we're going to use this for a commercial for
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: fifteen seconds or whatever, and you're like, okay, that's that,
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: and then you'd have no idea where it shows up.
• 36:06
  Speaker 5: Is that like a nice check though? Like is that
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: a good thing?
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how many times they played it.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: I think I saw so I looked it up on
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Reddit and apparently, I guess Fox NFL plays it in
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: their broadcasts.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, I mean, is it a nice check? I don't know.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I guess we'll see, but I it's a check.
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's nice.
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: It's a check. It's also like, I don't know, I
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: got laundry lists, I got subscriptions and issues with all
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: of that stuff. But I'm glad people are hearing the song.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: The vessel isn't always awesome.
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, but.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: I'm glad people are hearing the song. Yeah.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: Did you have an expectation, because I know, growing up
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: you've always been into art, You've always drawn. Did you
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: have an expectation at any point to make money or
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: was it like a total surprise.
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: I think I've always well, I was in an expectation
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: to have a job. Yeah, to turn it like where
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: I knew. It's like, this isn't a It's not a
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: hobby for me, like for better or or worse, because
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: I'm incapable of doing anything else, you know, like well
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: or just this is what I've been doing and what
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: I want to do. But you know, you have examples
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: that like when I the first thing I thought I
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: was going to do was make comics, like make underground
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: comics or you know, at first I think it was
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: much younger. I was like, I'm going to do a
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: comic strip like Helvin Hobbs.
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: Of course, like telling my dad that, who's like an
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: immigrant from Nigeria who grew up in a village and
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: worked his way up to being like, you know, a
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: medical director and a hospital somewhere. He's like, well, how
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: are you going to make money? Yeah, And I said,
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't know. Do people make money
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: doing that? He said, of course, And then he would,
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: you know, actually be like here's the just there's actually
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: a book in the library that shows what commercial artists make,
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: and here's what a comic strip artist makes, poor strip.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: Here's who you write to to get all this stuff.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: And so there was always this idea of just like,
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: there's a way to make Yeah, this thing I want
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: to do, like I would, I will have to hustle
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: and make money doing it. But I also never like
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: and I Bill, you know, was never There's never any
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: part of me that was like I'm going to do
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: this thing and I'm going to make.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: So much money.
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so much money. And that's exactly why I'm going
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: to do it, because I'm going to make so much
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: you know, it's like never it's there's people that I
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: looked up to who you know, like I said, these
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: underground comic artists or even like superhero comic artists where
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: it's just like I make a hundred bucks a page
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: and I turn in thirty pages and I'm like that,
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: you know, and you're like fifteen, and you're like that
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: sounds great.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: You'll realize it's.
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: Like literally backbreaking work to sit there like a table
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: for like forever to do that. But you know, there's
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: always some idea of like I have to turn this
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: into a job however I can, like I have to
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: support myself doing this thing. And the idea that like
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: you also don't like thinking like about make any kind
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: of being an artist is there's no you don't really retire. Yeah,
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: Like I don't think there's not a point where I'm
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: going to be like, Okay, that's it. I did enough
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: and now I'm going to, like ye sit on the
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: dock of the bay wasting.
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: Time, go to Margaritaville.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: To watch a million a million sunsets. Yeah no, but
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: but it's.
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: The there's there's definitely always a part where it's sort
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: of like, I want to be doing this creative work.
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: I want to have this mode of processing, you know,
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: being alive in events and feelings, and I'd like to
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: be able to support myself doing that. And if I'm
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: not able to directly support myself doing this creative work,
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: I'm going to hustle and find something else to support
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: that creative work.
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: Yep. How did you get a job at Celebrity Deathmatch?
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: How did that happen? And what were you doing there?
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: I was animating. I was making puppets beat the shit
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: out of each other for a few years. Yeah, making,
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: That's what I was doing at Deathmatch. And I got
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: the job because I was at the school in New
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: York as at NYU, and I went there for live
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: action directing, and within two years realized that I was
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: really not it was not a good director because I
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: didn't feel comfortable telling people what to do.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: I would just be like, here's a scenario, just just
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: like do what you want? Yeah, do you want?
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: And I'll just you know, we'll film it and we'll
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: edit it, and it'll be what it's it'll be what
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: it's going to be. You know, everyone's like in their
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: like teens and early twenties and like no one's listening
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: to each other. And I was kind of like, I
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: don't want it's just it was it wasn't for me.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: And since I you know, like drawing and animating, I
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: ended up going into stop motion like yeah, my junior,
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: and uh really like loving it, you know, like I
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: think I saw the Nightment before Christmas.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: It was kind of just like, oh, yeah, like that,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: that's what I want to do. That's that that looks great.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: And so like I ended up, like my my short
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: film ended up winning an award at the end of
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: the year, and everyone else was, you know, at that time,
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: doing really kind of early computer animation as they were graduating,
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: and they're.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Like, why are you Why are you using puppets.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: You're gonna be broke, You're gonna have to live in
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: like a basement and Czechoslovakia to like nake, you know,
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: sort of noone cares about that shit here. And I
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: was like, yeah, but I care about it, and I
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: can learn computers later if I know how to do this,
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: then that'll be fine. And then we all got out
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: of school. I was I was asked to leave school
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: because to do my senior project, I stopped going to classes.
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: It was a whole whole issue, the whole stupid thing.
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: But it got done. I got out.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: MTV was doing they.
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: Were just looking for animators for this new new show
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: that was based on this short that one of the
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: directors and artists over at MTV Animation made, this guy,
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: Eric Fogel. So yeah, I sent my tape in and
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: like went in and you know, they said, can you
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: come in and talk? And I remember I went in
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: and we didn't talk about animation at all. He just
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: said all these weird ass toys in his office. And
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh, you look, are you like this?
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: And and I left and I got a call, like,
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: you know, like two days later that I was hired.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: So it was one of the first eighteen animators on
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: that show.
• 43:18
  Speaker 5: Wow, that's so cool.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: It was good.
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: It was like a good boot camp for stop motion
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: and because you know, you're doing it five days a
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: week for like, you know, eight hours a day, and
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: you're sort of like, oh, I'm now I'm making stuff
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: that people are going to be watching on TV. And
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: if you you know me even saying that, if you
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: go back and look at those early episodes, like they're.
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: Not good, they're not no like technically or.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: They're yeah, technically now they're Punces in the mill are good.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: And that was the thing.
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: It was like the sliding scale of people who had
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: like just got out of school and people doing stop
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: motion for you know, twenty years.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: It's so specialized.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, were you in TV on the radio then? Like
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: was were you just starting to play then? Or was
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: that did those overlap at all?
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: No? I started making four track stuff kind of more
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: in earnest around, like while I was working at Deathmatch,
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: pretty much as an antidote to the how tedious that Yeah,
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: that was yeah to be you know, like the whole
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: thing of like I mean, you know, like animation person
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: will tell your stop motion, especially where it's like you
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: work it eight hours a day for four days in
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: a row and at the end of it you've got
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: the three seconds of animation, you know, or something like that.
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: So having a four track at home was just a
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: good way to you know, and withdrawing and painting too,
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: it's just like you're taking it's just taking a while.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: So having a four track at home and a little
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: like piano and loop pedals to mess around with. At
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: the end of your two hours, you have a bunch
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: of stuff on a tape that you can play back
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: and you can mess with. So that was I would
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: say that music was like it was a way to
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: get a quicker result than animation.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm curious if the way that you work out
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: musical ideas has that changed from when you first started
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: working with four tracks to now? Is do you sort
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: of approach it in the same way or has your
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: process changed now that you have more experience.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: It's totally the same. It's completely the same. I'll either
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: here here a melody, I'll beatbox something into a voice
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: note sor sing into a voice note and then if
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: I'm going to, you know, at the time, take it
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: to a four track. It's kind of just it's it's
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: really the same of making a just a vocal sketch
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: of something and then layer fleshing it out with you know,
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: just instrumentation or you know, any kind of sound. I
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: would say, actually, yeah, it's come back around to being
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: closer to what it was when I started making four
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: track stuff. I feel like just over the years making
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: stuff with the band, my thinking about writing started to
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: include and leave space for you know, like I would
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: have a part of a song where I'd be like,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: I don't I don't really know what to do over there,
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: but I know that Kip is going to have twelve
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: ideas for that and that's going to be a great
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: I want to hear what he wants to do there
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: and or Jaliel can do something here, or I know
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: Dave is going to have a billion ideas for this.
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: So I think the like, now it's gone just for
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: this stretch of you know, my record and just how
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: I'm writing now without without the guys, It's gone back to,
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: you know, the way it was before, or where I
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: was like I at least have to make I got
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: to make a more detailed sketch, you know, and it's
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: all me, you know, it's all yeah, for better or
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: for worse, Like the good and bad decisions are all
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: are all mine?
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: Are there any decisions that made it to this album
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: that you presented to TV on the radio that got
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: shot down? And now you're like, Okay, I finally get
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: to do that idea.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: There were songs that just didn't get not not shut down.
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: But there's sometimes where you know, like when we did
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: get together record, there would be a lot of songs,
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: like a lot of a lot of starts. I feel
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: like the I feel like seeds and nine types of Light.
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: You know, we after a few rounds of eliminating what
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: people liked and what we thought was going to make
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: it on to the record, Like, there would just be
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: points where we everyone would make their choices and we'd
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: have thirty songs left and just like we got to
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: like get that to ten, you know, and get rid
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: of that.
• 48:03
  Speaker 5: So there are of that seems like a great problem
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: to have, though kind of yeah, like how do you know?
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: Well, it's I think it becomes obvious because people just
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: start gravitating to the ten or twelve songs that are
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: going to make it onto the record, or you know,
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: we'll have a meeting and just say I actually want
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: to finish this, So can we put more time into
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: this than if it's a lost cause? It's a lost cause,
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: but like you know what, when you give it, give
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: it a second.
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: Very nice. Okay, one last question, I'm curious.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: I saw Twisters the other night, And I'm curious how
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: your character very much surprised me because I had seen pictures,
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: I'd seen still shots of you, and like the I
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: thought you were going to be like an archaeologist, but
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: you are sort of like the YouTube hill Billy and
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: the YouTube Hillbilly Crew.
• 48:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah exactly, the slash burning Man, Yeah.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: Exactly, the gigantic weather nerd.
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: Yes. Yes, I love that.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: I guess now, like, how have the roles that are
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: coming to you chain and how has your ambition with
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: acting change now that you've been doing it for so long,
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: And I guess as you get older, you must like
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: the roles must be different.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. I mean it's it's weird with me because I've
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: done it. It's funny when things come up or you know,
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: something will come out and someone will very just like,
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: oh is this the first thing you've done. It's like,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: did you do a lot of acting? And I looked
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: at it just recently and I was just like, yeah,
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: I'm doing it for like, oh twenty years.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, in.
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: Kind of fits and starts because of bandwork and you know,
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: and things.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: But I love, I love doing it, and I think
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: generally I like anybody.
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: I like the opportunity to kind of get into the
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: head of somebody who's a little bit off kilter for me,
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: like when something comes up and I don't know if
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: the expression of that comes through in these characters, but
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: it's it's always, it's never I feel like I'm thinking
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: about it now. It's like, I don't really feel like
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: I've been given like a lot of leeway to give
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: my input.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: To these characters.
• 50:31
  Speaker 5: And that's nice.
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been really nice. No, I feel really lucky
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: to have worked with the people I've worked with. Yeah,
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: like with Twisters, like Isaac Chung who you know, who's
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: the director? The character was like it was really there's
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: no description of this character in the script.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: They're just like this is this person.
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: So if we got to Oklahoma and I said town,
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: I was just like, so what do you who do
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: you think this guy is?
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: And like what are you looking for? You know essentially,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: And he said.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: Was there anything that you've really, like ever just wanted
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: to do in a you know, like in a role
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: or a movie. And I was like, yeah, but also
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: what do you want me to do? Yes, because that
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: would be a good place to start. But he really
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: was just like just you know, like take a second
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: with it and like write down here you think this
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: guy is. And I was like, he's a weather nerd,
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: he's a metal head. He loves Lenny, that's why he cut.
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: He has these lamb chops. He's got this weird mutton
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: chop thing going on. He draws fantasy barbarian art for commissions.
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: It must be interesting too as an actor to go
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: from playing like a love interest to now your cast
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: as a father in this skeleton career doesn't know you know,
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: it's like the world now sees you different totally.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: That is pretty interesting. There's definitely, uh, it's it's funny.
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: I've definitely had a few moments with these, Like last
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: couple of projects.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was in I was in the first.
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: Version of a show that got entirely scrapped and and
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: remade and put out. I was not in the final version,
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: but it was definitely a moment where I looked around
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: and I was just like, oh.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: I'm like the second oldest person in the cast. Yeah,
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: and it wasn't you know.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: And it was also like in Twisters a little bit,
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: but Skeleton Crew.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Like obviously because it's kids.
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: But yeah, my daughter loves the show too's she finally
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: respects me.
• 52:30
  Speaker 5: Do you get recognized by kids?
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're kids at are schoold or yeah? Who are now?
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Who? I seen the show and like this show?
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: Which is that show was engineered? I feel Adam by
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: Adam for kids their age. Yeah, every kid that age
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: I know who's seen is just like which is great,
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: which is so great, so fun to do.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: Awesome, Thank you so much, Tuned. I'm sorry for I
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: know I took up a lot of your time, but
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: it's so great.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: It's awesome talking to you, so.
• 53:07
  Speaker 5: Great to connect with you. And yeah, have fun with
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: the new album.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Thanks Litely, is awesome to talk to you.
• 53:13
  Speaker 5: Finally, you too.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: Thanks again to Tunday out of MPE for talking about
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: his creative life and the making of his new solo project,
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: The Black Bolts.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: You can hear a favorite.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: Tunda and TV on the radio songs on your playlist
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: at Broken Record podcast dot com, and be sure to
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record Broken Record
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliday.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety nine
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: and review us on your podcast app Our themes expect
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: any beats.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: Justin Richmond, mm hmm,