Latest / Ruining the Workplace Podcast / S2 E5 Ida Tarbell Ruins the Oil Industry
Transcript
- Jaden: I'm Jaden Danielle: and I'm Danielle. Jaden: and this is the Ruining the Workplace podcast. Hello. Welcome back to the Ruining the Workplace podcast, everybody. goodness. Danielle: What is happening? Hi, welcome. Jaden, what is going on in your world? Jaden: my gosh. well my teen would hate it that I'm saying this or telling anyone anything about her. But she did a sleepover on a school night last night. I swear I had like the easiest, most stress-free morning. But here's the thing. I love her so much. But I'm gonna say nothing to do with her, but just her absence gave me this sort of false sense of freedom. And my cats were like, listen, bitch, not today. And I yeah, I don't Danielle: Mm-hmm. You are not free or you're free to play with us. Jaden: it's really weird because they basically took over and they have been driving me bonkers this morning. So it's been a good Danielle: That's funny. Jaden: morning. I'm very energetic, but they are making me nuts. And so I'm really hoping. Yeah, they're like, Danielle: They know you have nobody else to take care of today. It's just you and them. Jaden: it's just you and it's us, and you're trapped in here with us. Danielle: And and we know you have that little red dot. I love that. Jaden: Yeah, but that's you know what? There's worse ways to live and I wouldn't trade it. So how well what's up with you? Danielle: that's true, honestly. No, I love that. Bob and Becky Karen, speaking of cats, are Jaden: Mm. Danielle: doing much better. They're actually wrestling each other now. It's not just bops on the head, you know what mean? They're Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: full-on wrestling and like nobody's growling. It's really great. yeah, Jaden: that's good. Danielle: it's very good. They're actually having fun and I'd say we're about six inches apart from a cuddle. So that's like sh she will not let Jaden: That is progress, really. well I'm gonna ask you a question that is not related Danielle: Mm. Jaden: to anything we just talked about, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Okay. Danielle: Okay. Love it. Jaden: How do you feel about corporate greed and investigative journalism? Danielle: I love one and abhor the other. Yeah, it's just my God. Why are Jaden: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's investigative journalism, doesn't it? Suck so bad. Ugh. Danielle: their articles so long? Why does Jaden: Mm. Danielle: it become an entire podcast series that I can't stop listening to? my god. Jaden: Why do they have to talk about details that we should all be aware of? Right? These are all really good questions. Danielle: Just so I have more, but I'll stop there. Jaden: Clearly we have both had too much coffee today. Wow. I am as well. I'm Danielle: I am having a cup right now. Jaden: on I think this is my fourth one, which is this is Danielle: Ooh, wa coffee or matcha? Jaden: I am not drinking matcha anymore. And anyway we can talk about that later. Let's just move on. Danielle: What Whoa hold on. I can't move on from that. Okay. I'm gonna need a minute. Okay, well I hate corporate greed. I think it is just how do it's Jaden: It's the worst, right? Danielle: the worst. Like how do we let how as a society do we keep letting this happen? Jaden: all right, let's take a journey. Picture this. It is the nineteen hundreds, and John D. Rockefeller is like one of the most rich and powerful men in America, because there's so many and we just need to keep talking about that, right? And during this time he has built an enormous oil empire and gained much influence. Over this whole industry. His company has swallowed competitors, secured secret transportation advantages, and accumulated enough power to make the small business way uncomfortable. Okay. So a woman named Ida Tarbell decides she's wants to know exactly how and why and how. So she spends years digging through. documentation, interviewing executives, investigating business arrangements, and basically exposing the machinery behind Standard Oil, which is John D. Rockefeller's company. Mm-hmm. Girl, I Danielle: Ooh. Ida, okay, girl. Jaden: So because of this, her reporting becomes a national sensation and she really helps shape American journalism. She contributes to public scrutiny of corporations that will eventually be broken apart by the Supreme Court. So that's that's a pretty big deal. And Danielle: Whoa. Jaden: mm, she does this all at a time when women are still fighting for the right to vote. Okay, so I want you to pin that because it's really important. So Ida Tarbell. She's a brilliant, independent, unmarried, professionally accomplished, and hmm allergic to being told what to do, not unlike myself. Right? So she's allergic I just don't like it, and neither did she. Ew. Kinda. Yep. Danielle: Allergic. I really start sneezing when someone tries to boss me around. I just Jaden: But like iconic, right? Feminist icon, hell yeah. She's kind of a baddie. It seems like we're Danielle: Absolutely. Jaden: gonna be talking about a baddie, but I want you To hold on to that as well, because she is going to give us one of the most spectacular ideological plot twists that we have talked about on this podcast yet. But before we dig into that, I want to tell you about early Ida Tarbell and her background. Okay. So Ida Minerva Tarbell was born November 5th, 1857 in Pennsylvania. She was born in a log cabin owned by her grandfather. She had three siblings, one of which died of scarlet fever when he was very young. Ida's father was an oil man, and growing up in the oil fields had a very significant impact on Ida's life, obviously, because she kind of went on to do this whole thing, right? Ida was born just two years before Edwin Drake's famous. oil well next to Titusville, Pennsylvania. And this oil well place really was one of the things that helped launch American petroleum industry from an industry perspective. I apparently, yeah. Yeah. So, Danielle: In Pennsylvania? I weird. Okay. Jaden: the oil boom itself was chaos, right? imagine the gold rush era, but everything's covered in petroleum and it's on fire. Like the original this is fine name, you know? It's just chaos. Danielle: Heh. Jaden: so be because of this boom, people were flooding into northwestern Pennsylvania essentially like the Gold Rush just hoping to make a buck, right? And oil dereks were appearing everywhere. Small towns were exploding in populations and outsiders were coming in and buying up land and starting businesses and just springing up overnight, basically. And people were making shitloads of money. And other people were losing shitloads of money. And because this was nineteenth century America, the concept of workplace safety, which is incidentally something we talk about an awful lot. on this podcast. I don't know. We just Danielle: Actually, yeah, that's interesting. Jaden: it is. And I I appreciate that. And anyway, Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: it was mostly a matter of hoping you survived. You know what I mean? Like till dinner, just the day. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: it is a very dangerous place to be. So Ida's father, Franklin, saw an opportunity within all of this. And he began manufacturing wooden storage tanks for oil producers and eventually moved into oil production and refining himself. So Her family got very, very wealthy because of this. And Ida was growing up around entrepreneurs, inventors, independent business owners, and just people who believed hard work could create a lot of opportunity. Enter John D. Rockefeller. So this dude, as we know, has a knack for business and a particular talent for recognizing like where money could be made. I mean, we're all familiar with the Rockefeller name, right? Danielle: Right, right. Jaden: He also understood that drilling oil was very unpredictable, but refining it, transporting it, and distributing was where you could really build something at this point in time. So back in 1870, he helped establish the standard oil company of Ohio. And over the next several decades, he and his associates really transformed it into one of the most powerful corporations in the world. he himself understood a few things. refining efficiency, reducing waste, investing in infrastructure, this all helps make petroleum products more affordable and consistent. But Rockefeller also understood something about the business of it all. If you control all of those things that your competitors need, you have an enormous advantage, right? So he puts that to work. So you can kind of see where I'm starting to go with this, the whole corporateness of it all. Danielle: yeah. Of course. Yeah. Mhm. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: It sounds a lot like a certain shopping thing. Jaden: Ew, Daddy Bezos. Anyway. Danielle: Yeah. I don't want to call him daddy, but yeah. I'm seeing parallels to Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: I used to just sell books out of my garage. Like, go back to doing that. Right, out of my car. And now I own Whole Foods or whatever. Okay. Jaden: my god, right? I used to just sell oil out of my shack. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So in 1872, a proposed arrangement involving major railroads and a group of refiners became known as the Southern Improvement Company Scheme. Okay? Scheme. Key word. Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: I know. you can't even call it something else. Well, at this time they didn't know the Danielle: Who what scheme? Jaden: scheme was a bad word. So under the arrangement, participating refiners would re receive preferential shipping rates. But there was another feature. The plan also included payments linked to competitors' shipments. So basically, you're running a small company, your largest competitor negotiates a special shipping discount, but you don't get it because maybe a competitor already gets it and there's some financial reason why you don't qualify or Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: something like that. So you're basically paying more to compete with all these larger companies. Danielle: Right. Jaden: And the company already dominating your market is standing basically to benefit from your activity. it's all just a bunch of greedy bullshit. Danielle: Right. Jaden: When the independent oil producers and refiners learned about these arrangements, they were like, What? They're mad. There were protests, meetings, boycotts, and ultimately the proposed scheme collapsed. And they were like, This is not gonna work. So they were starting to sort of like disintegrate some of these practices that were trying to be put in place, but Standard Oil was like, mm, unbothered. And they just c continued to consolidate the industry. And the Tarbell family witnessed the consequences of growing corporate concentration. And Ida at this point is 14 years old. So she's watching her community struggle with the reality that like small businesses could be threatened by powerful organizations and the backdoor negotiations that can happen, right? And that is the experience that stays with her. So years later, she returns to this story with a journalist's. training and a very long memory. So as a kid, she was very curious and intelligent and she's very into reading and science and learning how things worked. and unlike many women of her generation, she had the opportunity to attend college. She enrolled at Allegheny college in Meadville, Pennsylvania and graduated in eighteen eighty and she was the only woman in her graduating class. Danielle: Wow. that's also a repeat Jaden: I know, right? But the Danielle: theme in a lot like the ac Yeah. Well, access to education, Jaden: Yeah, being the first or the only. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Danielle: and like what that can get you or help you do. Jaden: Well you what's funny too is like some of her I I guess like some of her teachers were saying that she she was like a truant and she didn't show up and she didn't take it seriously, but she was like super smart. I know. Danielle: my god, I love that. She's like, I know that there's no other women here, but like I don't really need this. my god. Icon. I love that. Jaden: Yeah, I can do this on my own terms. Yeah. I know. So, after she graduated, she actually became a teacher, which was, you know, one of the more socially accepted professions for women. And if you recall, Matahari did a similar thing, but did not she didn't like it. And she also Ida did not get kicked out of the school for scandal. anyway. Danielle: Ha ha ha. Jaden: But she did quit. teaching and moved on to something she found ma way more interesting, which was publishing and journalism. So she began Danielle: cool. Jaden: working at the Chautauquan, which was a magazine associated with the Chautauqua educational movement. And there she learned editing, research, writing and basically the mechanics of publishing, and started to develop a reputation for being very thorough and intellectually ambitious, because she was. So what does she do? 1891, age of thirty three, she moves to Paris all by herself. And again, Danielle: Wow. Jaden: I'm like, what it there's a real Paris theme that comes up consistently across these stories. Danielle: Paris is very I I think historically it seems like very open minded. And the French people love to fight, fight back. Not fight, but you know what I mean. They're always protesting something. I respect that. I think it's interesting, Jaden: I guess, yeah. And mmhmm and so she loved Yeah, they're always like, Wheah I do too. Like right now. Danielle: yeah, exactly. I think it's interesting too. You said she was thirty three Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: when she takes off like that's she's not a young woman. Jaden: Well, no. And let's talk about that for a second because she is an unmarried woman, American woman, Danielle: All right. Right. Yeah. Jaden: who moves overseas, supports herself through journalism and studies French history, pursues a professional career in all of that. And Danielle: Mm. Jaden: this isn't an era where women were still expected to organize their lives around marriage and motherhood, right? Ida was Danielle: Right, right. Jaden: over here doing intellectual work in a totally another country and she Danielle: Wow. Jaden: actually she never married, never had kids. and did more solo international travel and she earned her own money like she never depended on a man and right Danielle: Living the dream. Jaden: totally so she is pursuing her interests and being independent and that of course is very unusual. So once again I'm gonna ask you to pin that because we're gonna need it later. And right now it's kind of looking like she would just be The most annoying woman at a dinner party at that time because she's not conforming to any of the norms. Danielle: Right. You're like, this lady never shuts up about her amazing freedoms and all the places she's going to and right. Jaden: Yeah. She doesn't even have kids. Ugh. So let's skip a little bit forward into when she's back in America later in the eighteen nineties. She joins McClure's magazine, which is one of the most influential American publications of what is now recognized as the Progressive Era. And its publisher SS McClure was very interested in stories that would really capture public attention, so borderline, sensationalized Danielle: Mm. Jaden: stuff. But the magazine became known for publishing very serious investigative work about politics and business and social issues. And Ida began producing deeply researched historical biographies and a couple of her subjects, once again, Napoleon. Hey Sophie, and Abraham Lincoln. And her Lincoln research was particularly impressive because she didn't just talk about the stuff that everybody knows. She actually dug into a lot of the things that were not public knowledge or public accessible. And she gained access to people connected to his early life. And she really kind of pushed a lot the quote unquote accepted narratives around. So she's looking for evidence. She's trying to be a cr a true crime writer. You know what I mean? Yeah. Danielle: interesting. Yeah. I love that. She would have done so well in the twenty fifteens. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She would have had a great podcast. Danielle: yeah. Yeah. Jaden: So by the turn of the century, she had become a respected and influential writer, and she was about to take on going back to this much bigger subject of John D. Rockefeller. Let's fucking go. So yep. Danielle: Let's fucking go, Ida. It's time. Do we know how old she is at this point? Jaden: I think she's in her late thirties. Yeah. Danielle: Okay, that that makes sense. Jaden: So by the late nineteenth century, around I mean the same time, standard oil had become the dominant force in American oil refining. And it was through acquisitions, restructuring, all the corporate BS, and at at that point controlled roughly ninety percent of American oil refining industry. And that's notable because like Danielle: That's insane. Jaden: It's like a company controlling nine out of ten businesses in a major industry. And I Danielle: Right. That's wild. Jaden: I think that's what's referred to as a monopoly, right? that's basically what that is. So this all Danielle: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Jaden: made life very difficult for a smaller competitors. We talked about that earlier, but Ida's like, all right, I need to understand how and why this is happening. So some of the things that she investigated, she got into secret railroad rebate territory. And that essentially was the oil company securing preferential transportation arrangements that it could give significant cost advantages over competing refiners. So they were just getting the best in transportation costs, right? Danielle: And is that probably related to didn't Rockefeller own several railroad lines? is it related to what he already has? Okay. Jaden: Yes. Well, and I it's probably more related to the thing I'm gonna say next, which is a lot of very aggressive acquisitions. The company Danielle: Okay. Yeah, okay. Jaden: acquired competing businesses and sometimes under circumstances that would leave, you know, owners with nothing or just no alternative. And this also led to a lot of corporate secrecy. So complex ownership structures made it difficult for business owners to understand the full extent of standard oil's control. Like it's very klue, it's very chaotic. And the company's scale allowed it to influence the competitive environment in ways that smaller business just can't match, right? So here's what Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: made Ida's eventual reporting especially effective. Instead of ignoring the accomplishments of standard oil. She also, was digging into the what the fuck of it all, but she also acknowledged the efficiency, organization, and achievements of the business itself. But Then she examined the methods used to build and maintain the success. And that distinction Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: is really key because that's what is gonna point us at the lower cost and improved Danielle: Right. Jaden: quote unquote operations. So Ida was pointing Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: to the ways that it accumulated power and exercised it, but also keeping receipts at the same time. Mm. Danielle: That's awesome. I love that. yeah, you did these amazing things, but at what cost? Jaden: Right, exactly. So we're getting into about nineteen hundred at this point. Ida began developing a series about Standard Oil and it was originally pretty modest. It started as a few articles explaining the company's history, but as she started researching it, she discovered that this was way bigger. And it really involved decades of business decisions, railroad agreements. Corporate acquisitions, all those things and personal rivalries, which I found interesting. I'm like, ooh, we got some Ooh, I know, right? So she Danielle: I love a personal drama thrown in there. Fun. Jaden: keeps digging, and eventually this project becomes nineteen installments published in McClure's magazine between November nineteen two Danielle: wow. Jaden: and October nineteen four. And I that's pretty remarkable, right? for Danielle: cried. Jaden: the time, nineteen deeply researched, like long article, like Danielle: Yeah. That's crazy. Jaden: People consuming content th there's no internet. Like, interesting. Danielle: Right. Yeah. And they're staying into the story for that's almost two years. Right? Wow. Jaden: Right? Totally. Yeah. So here's a twist. Mark Twain shows up. Danielle: Wait. Tom's Tom Sawyer emerged. Wait. he's real he's coming down the river. Like Hey Jaden: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That Mark Twain, the novelist. He's like, I'm Samuel Clemens slash Mark Twain. Hey. Amazing. So he he helps her get access to a very powerful executive at Standard Oil and his name was Henry H. Rogers, one of Standard Oil's most influential people. And through Mark Twain, she got an intro. So we know that networking Alive and well in nineteen two. Danielle: man. Jaden: But eventually she gets access to this guy. they first meet in January of nineteen two and he was an enormously wealthy, powerful, and deeply involved in the operations of this oil company, and he agreed to speak with her like more than once, but Danielle: Wow. Jaden: He gave her all this information, talked about company's history and offered his perspective on how it was being run, which is interesting. Danielle: Hm. Jaden: and he continued he was basically like her ear on the ground as she's doing all of the investigation. And it's not super clear why he would do this. You know, like what are his motivations? Not not Danielle: Right. Does he know what her angle is? Jaden: Right. it's not clear whether or not he was actually yeah, help me take this down or spinning a story. It's very hard to tell. But the relationship gave her something really valuable, which was access to the inside. So Danielle: Well hell yeah. Jaden: yeah. So she combines the access with other independent research. And this is what she eventually publishes. And the series was called A History of the Standard Oil Company. feel Danielle: Hmm. Jaden: like It was gonna have a way more hot title, but it was pretty it's maybe for the Times. Danielle: Yeah, you could really you could really sensationalize that and she chose to not, it seems Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I think it was less about like destroying corporate greed, or at least at first, she really wanted to uncomplicate these corporate practices and make them understandable Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: to the everyday business owner. Because Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: these corporations obviously can hide tons of information and and a lot of questionable behavior behind the complexity Danielle: Right. Jaden: of it all. So she's like, Well, the average person doesn't have time or resources to untangle it, so I'm gonna do Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: So the series helped fuel anyway. Hell yeah. Danielle: Nice. Jaden: It fueled growing public concern around monopolies and corporate power. And it became one of the more defining examples of investigative journalism during this era. So writers like her became associated with this movement. That investigated corruption, exploitation, and abuses of power. And that is really what rolled out of this I think meaningful to help business owners and the everyday person understand corporate practices, but really turned into what Theodore Roosevelt deemed in nineteen six as muck raking. Danielle: Ooh, Jaden: And that is just basically people who go and you know, they investigate and expose this shit, right? Danielle: They're digging up the dirt. Jaden: Yeah. It was not a compliment so Danielle: Right. Jaden: much, but President Roosevelt was like, hmm, some reformers are focusing so heavily on exposing wrongdoing that they're neglecting everything else, which is an interesting complaint to make about the people who are documenting this shit about corruption, Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: because it's like, well, what's more important, right? Danielle: Well, that's politics, baby. Don't look over there, look over here Yeah. Jaden: That look over here. Yeah, yeah. But the term stock and muck raking became a very important part of American journalism. And in 1911, the Supreme Court ruled, because of all of this exposure, that Standard Oil had been violating antitrust laws. So yeah, Danielle: Yes. Jaden: the company was ordered to dissolve and separate into multiple businesses. So to Danielle: Amazing. Jaden: sort of put a bow on all that. Ida didn't break up Standard Oil. Her reporting wasn't the legal case, but the government Danielle: Right. Jaden: began investigating monopolies and enforcing these laws through a much broader process because this journalism helped bring the light to it all, right? So she helped Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: make an incredibly complicated issue accessible. And also this was the output. Danielle: Which is exactly what journalism is supposed to do, right? you're Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: supposed to bring awareness to the citizens and then the citizens can rally or whatever so the government can make changes. I mean that's not the only Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: reason, right? But like it's a mechanism to fuel awareness. And Jaden: Yeah, and change and Danielle: change, yeah. Jaden: And Ida, I mean it's extraordinary, right? She's a woman journalist. Danielle: Absolutely. Jaden: She challenged this empire and Danielle: Mm. Jaden: through that work built an independent career, a voice, demonstrated remarkable intellectual ability, and became very Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: influential. And so, she's a total baddie. She's defying expectations Danielle: Absolutely. Jaden: on women. And so surely, surely, Ida is a passionate advocate for women's equality, right? Danielle: no. I don't like the way you said that. Jaden: And yet, the independent woman who refused to let society dictate her life, Ida Tarbell, opposed women's suffrage. Let that sink in. Danielle: that is insane. Ha who Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: brainwashed her? Because that's what it sounds like to me. Like, does she not? babe, your whole lifestyle would benefit from this. Like Jaden: I know. What are we doing, girl? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Danielle: What are you even talking about? Is it because she's like, Well, Jaden: So Danielle: I was fine. I don't need more rights. You know what I mean? I Jaden: I mean, I suppose that could play in, that's interesting. Danielle: don't know. I'm never gonna have an abortion, so why should you? You know what I mean? Jaden: Why should you? So Ida obviously was this woman who believed corporations should be held accountable and she was skeptical of the movement fighting for women's political equality. She was out here challenging professional expectations for women, but didn't support every effort to dismantle the historical expectation, right? And she's out here building a career outside the home and believing that women's domestic responsibilities were still s central to the social role. So I Not her. Yeah. Okay. So well it it's Danielle: Just not her. Just not her. I don't like her anymore. Okay. Jaden: weird. We're gonna we're gonna we're on a roller coaster. and we're going down. So In nineteen twelve, she publishes a book called The Business of Being a Woman. She's gonna talk about maybe like professional independence or women's intellectual achievements. I who knows. Danielle: Yeah. Now that sounds cool. Jaden: Or maybe like the importance of women having a voice in public life, sort of. Lol. Ha ha ha. Danielle: Absolutely. Yeah. her story. is this just an autobiography couched as words of wisdom? Mm-hmm. Jaden: We wish, but no. It was a book arguing that women had a distinct and essential social role, particularly in the home and family. So she believed motherhood and domestic labor were deeply important and insufficiently valued. And she worried that she worried that women were becoming too focused on pursuing traditionally masculine ambitions, i.e. careers and shit. Well Danielle: What? Jaden: like While neglecting the responsibilities she believed were central to women's lives, like being a homemaker. And then to Danielle: my god. Jaden: top it all off, she's like highly critical of the suffrage movement. Danielle: That's so weird, Jaden: But I wanna talk about some of the nuance here, right? as you dig into her arguments and feelings on all of this, she isn't arguing that women were incapable of like professional achievement, nor should they not have access to it. but she had a particular understanding, Danielle: Okay. Jaden: of what these contributions should look like, and her position created a very interesting contradiction. Cause her own life was built around choices Danielle: Mm. Jaden: that challenged these traditional expectations, right? She didn't Danielle: Right. Jaden: she didn't do any of those things. And it was because of the way that she was exposed to suffrage in her early life. So, yeah, the question then becomes: okay, so is she just a product of her time? Partly. Danielle: Right. Jaden: The women's suffrage movement was already well established when she was a kid. Women were organizing, protesting, lobbying, doing all the things, right? And she's surrounded by all these women who were challenging this traditional gender expectation. And many of those women were also mothers and workers and reformers all at the same time. So her mom hosted meetings in the home. Ida was put off by women in these groups because she said that they basically ignored her. And the people who did pay her attention and I I had a hard time with this, but I had to again reset the context. She said the men her father hosted showed interest in her. And that it was an academic interest in her, not a weird sexual or homemakery. they respected mm-hmm. Yeah, I know. Cause I went through that too. I was like, ugh. But Danielle: Thank you for f clarifying. Yeah. Jaden: it was not this Gross. It was more about they recognized in her that she was academically shiny, right? And so Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Jaden: this gave her the motivation to go to college and get educated. And Danielle: Interesting. Jaden: she felt alienated by the women that were in the movement. So this started shaping Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: her views around, feeling conflicted here, right? The the conflict was driven by a feeling of militant aspects Danielle: Mm. Jaden: and anti-male attitudes. And Danielle: sure, yeah. Jaden: So she's already writing for a number of publications, and she starts to share the view that women's suffrage was A misguided war on men. Danielle: Well yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jaden: But I I do understand to a certain extent because I th I think that that is n less about gender roles or anything related to the actual movement itself, but more like a hive mind thing, right? Danielle: Right. Yes, yeah. And that makes sense from that Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: if you're coming at it from that angle, I can understand a little bit better. It's like when people would think that the feminist is a bad word. Well, which Jaden: Right. Danielle: era of feminism are you attaching it to? Because some Jaden: Right. Danielle: of it was a little too intense, maybe, right? ideologically what we're trying to do makes So much sense and absolutely that should be what it is. But I also don't like when people get too man haty. I'm like, I'm raising a little boy. I can't hate him because he's a boy. You know what I mean? So I I Jaden: Right. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: can understand. And also it feels like she's maybe lacking a critical eye on some of this. Jaden: Right. Danielle: I don't know. Jaden: And the influence that r she received from the women in her life clearly was very strong And they were trying to influence her in ways that she was uncomfortable with, which I find really interesting because she wanted to be academic but also understood the place of, the women's role in the household. I I can understand why people still latch on to that because despite all of the arguments around gender and roles and all that stuff, there's always gonna be something about a mother versus a father and all of that stuff, right? Like Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: It's just it just is. Danielle: Right. Jaden: And I know that that doesn't apply to every single family in the world. I mean, dual mother households, Danielle: Right. Jaden: dual father households. There's gonna be an air of one is doing more of the homemaker role than the other one, no matter who you are. I just Mm-mm. Danielle: Right. Right. Yeah, it's not it's not even gendered, it's just like you fall into Jaden: Right. Danielle: you know, somebody's doing a little bit more of a thing. I whatever, Jaden: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Danielle: it it's it there this is a complex thing, right? It's not Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: it's not black or white. It is so many Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: shades of gray because when you bring in her lived experience of being a young girl and the ladies at the meeting not giving her the time of day, but the men saying, you have all this academic potential and then going to school and being the only woman at her college and then going on and Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: doing all of these very independent and non-traditional activities for women at the time, but then having these viewpoints. And she's not wrong. it is important work to mother to homemake. even today, I it's it's always weird to me when it's like, it's not about are you a stay at home parent? Are you a working parent? Or who's the primary homemaker? It's all important and it should all be recognized as important work. Jaden: Uh-huh. Danielle: regardless of who is doing it. I don't know, it's work, right? And so when she's saying this is this is undervalued or underappreciated or however there's something you'd said earlier that like a around like the the mothering and the homemaking. And Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: like it is important work and somebody has to do it. Yeah. Right? But it doesn't have to be a woman. Right. But I Jaden: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Danielle: can she's coming from like all of these complex areas and not able to and maybe there wasn't room to do this in the time. Right. And and we suck at this today of well, this part might be true, but why are we making everything so black and white? Jaden: Yeah. Well, okay, I love that you said that actually, because the book that she wrote, This Business of Being Woman, it made her quite unpopular. I mean, she was out here doing all this journalism, writing for all these publications. She puts out this book and people were like, Wow, what is happening? This is so bizarre. But buried in her views were actual praise Danielle: Mm. Jaden: of women like Susan B. Anthony. And I think the context in which she is speaking is the fear isn't against the roles. It's not against suffrage. It's not against independent. It's not against any of that. It's more about her just speaking on what she wants to speak about freely and publishing it and freaking people Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Jaden: out. But I will say even her mom was like, What are you doing? She's like, Girl, God, lifelong, forever. Yeah, sh she was Danielle: I didn't raise you to do this. Come on. Jaden: quite critical of Ida and Danielle: Maybe that's part of the problem, Mom. I know. Right. Jaden: I know, right? I have a quote from her later she said, that title, the book, was like a red rag to many of my militant friends. The idea that a woman had a business assigned by nature and society, which was more important than public life, really disturbed them. And even if it was so, they did not want it emphasized. So basically saying that like shining the public light on quote unquote where women belonged Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: was really uncomfortable. So, let me tell you, that all changed when she embraced women's suffrage when women won the right to vote in nineteen twenty. Danielle: Stop. my gosh. What? Ho hold on. Jaden: yeah. I know. She? Ida, you're a paradox. Danielle: You know what? Can I just say she is a paradox? And I really love like we've had a couple other complicated women on here where we're like, I Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: don't know about their politics or ideology, whatever. Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: They it's so they're just human. And people Jaden: I know, right? Danielle: are so fucked up. And it's just Jaden: Ha ha ha. Danielle: a nice reminder that no one is perfect. People change their minds. People Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: are stupid sometimes. It's just like the humanity of it. Like they're doing great things. And also, they are very, very human. Jaden: that's really it, right? humans are contradictions no matter how you shape it. And Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Jaden: So let's talk about a few of the things that she did once all of this goes post suffrage, right? when the United States entered World War One, Woodrow Wilson invited her to serve on the women's committee of the Council of National Defense. And suffragists on that committee were like Well what? She opposed women's voting rights. Why is she here? And Danielle: This one? Are you sure? Jaden: But her warmth, collaborative spirit, it really won them over. She was like, No, no, no, Danielle: Hello. Jaden: I have my own views, and yes, they may seem conflicting, but I'm willing to work with you. Danielle: Whoa, imagine what that must be like. Jaden: Dude, I know. the irony is going to continue though, because she helped mobilize women for the war effort. She helped organize food conservation. She developed victory gardens, got into sewing very domestic, I know, right? But she also Danielle: These are all very, very ladylike activities. Yes. Mm-hmm. Jaden: d supported daycare centers so women could work in factories. Okay. So Danielle: well. So they could support the war. Mm-hmm. Jaden: She I just as a side quest, she like Frances, our old Fran Francis, she was really hellbent on helping women with workplace safety. And Danielle: Hmm. Jaden: she did a lot of writing about the realities of these factories. she contributed a lot to the workplace improvement movement that also happened during that time. So that's Danielle: my god, I love that. We have so many women who care about workplace issues. I love it. I love it. Jaden: I know we really were two. Danielle: And I love that Ida's like, I will begrudgingly let you work, but I'm gonna make sure you're safe at least and your kids are cared for. Fine. Fine. I'll do you this. Jaden: Yeah. Yeah, you can work and you have to have kids, but I want you to be safe while you're doing it. So yeah. she of course continues on as like the ultimate contradiction, right? She's serving as a liaison between Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: the men's council and the women's committee and helping to amplify women's influence in government while opposing their right to vote. Still so weird. And this just becomes a full time job for her. It's just being a paradox, a walking paradox. So I know, it's just all over the place. Danielle: I know. It's just all Jaden: She's like, Well, okay, but also and what you know, I think that Danielle: A little bit of this but not that and okay I'll give I'll give a little bit on this but not you know what? That's very political of her. She was made for politics. Jaden: Yeah, she really it's not that sh she really is and she embraced the suffrage just because women won and but it's also Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: she really held the old values closely and just I I think she was conflicted in a lot of ways. Danielle: Do we Jaden: her mom died in September of nineteen seventeen and the following year she collapsed her herself collapsed after returning to Danielle: no, said Jaden: Washington DC and she was hospitalized for three months where she had Danielle: Whoa. Jaden: a touch of the consumption better known. Danielle: no. Jaden: as the tuberculosis. But she she made it through. after that, she started experiencing early symptoms of Parkinson's disease. And God, this is so weird how often this comes up in history. But her doctor did not tell her. He didn't tell her. Yeah. Danielle: Wait. So they knew, but they were like mm. Jaden: Yeah. Yep. And she only learned about her diagnosis when her tremors got so bad she couldn't write. Danielle: She's like, Why can I not stop shaking? Jaden: Yeah. And so she finally was diagnosed properly. And Danielle: my god. Jaden: at the age of 82 in 1944, she passed away from pneumonia. And that is the paradoxical mid Danielle: Wow. Wow. My God. Jaden: dive. And I'm calling it a mid dive, even though that was super long, because there's so much more to her story. I just, if Danielle: there's more, I'm sure. Jaden: I was to go through all of it, it would take like two hours, maybe more. Danielle: yeah. Whoa. Wow. I feel like Jaden: Fascinating, fascinating person. Danielle: I feel like when I come off of like a really loop-de-loop roller coaster and I'm like, what did we just experience? Jaden: Right? Danielle: I think it's interesting. I have my happy ish like Oracle deck, you know. And the the Jaden: Mm, mm-hmm. Danielle: card that I have up today is I'm gonna read it to you because it's very on brand for this episode. Jaden: Ooh. Okay. Danielle: You contain multitudes. Jaden: Mm. Danielle: Whitman had it right when he wrote Do I Contradict Myself? Very well then. I contradict myself. In parentheses, I am large, I contain multitudes. Jaden: Mm. Danielle: And then out of the quote We are a mess of contradictions and ironies and hypocrisies. To pretend that anyone is just one thing is to deny the fullness of our humanity, that we are sometimes the victim and sometimes the villain, that we can do the unforgivable and still be worthy of love, of compassion, of forgiveness. Wow. Jaden: You just pulled that today randomly. Danielle: Well, I pulled it like a Jaden: Wow. Danielle: week ago, but I haven't pulled a new one. So it's just it was just sitting here. I'm like, my God. Jaden: Perfect. Danielle: I know. Jaden: I love that. Danielle: Yeah. I but that's what stands out to me is like she did some amazing work. And it's not it's not discredited Jaden: She did, and yeah. Danielle: by her wishy washy views on feminism and suffrage. Like Jaden: Right. I think the multitudes thing is so interesting because that really Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: does I mean, that's such a great word for it. And Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: if you are interested Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jaden: in learning more about Ida, she's got like twenty books that she published and God, Danielle: Wow. Jaden: a million magazine articles. So there's tons of stuff about her. And Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: there was a drunk history episode where she was in it. So yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's Ida. Danielle: my god. Okay. Our homework is to watch that. Amazing. Amazing. that's cool. Yeah, it's so interesting. I think it's a really good reminder. It feels very timely, just like the paradoxes Jaden: Mm. Danielle: and nobody's perfect. Right? And if you like Jaden: No. Uh-huh. Danielle: when somebody gets a platform, they're gonna use it. They're gonna write books that some people don't like. Jaden: Yeah, and you can hold both conflicting views yourself, and Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Jaden: and be willing to adapt when the social change happens. Danielle: Right. I think it points to w at least what I'm I'm making an assumption, right? Like Jaden: Mm. Danielle: that she can adapt or anyone can adapt to kind of the social changes that's happening, but also as we learn more about ourselves or about other people's experiences, like how does that impact Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: what we see as truth? You know what I mean? are we able to take What makes sense Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: and what feels right from different ideologies, and be like, yes, I buy into this piece, but I'm not quite sure. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: It's a lot how I feel like how I feel about the Bible personally. Jaden: interesting. Danielle: yeah, like I identify as a Christian. I think Jesus is pretty cool. I'm a big fan, Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: but there's some crazy shit in the old testament, and I'm like. Jaden: Mm. Yeah. Hello. Danielle: Y'all. What is going on? And I also I also think that like the Bible is a helpful book Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: full of interesting stories Jaden: Yes. Danielle: Not like when people say like it's the word of God, and I'm like, maybe some of it. Jaden: Well, it's more of an interpretation of things at the time. Danielle: Right, right. It's like an oral history of things that Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: maybe God passed down. Well, it's not oral, it's written. But I d you know what I mean? It's like there are Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: parts of it, I'm like, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm not trying I am not a weaponizer of anything. My main Jaden: Mm. Danielle: Christianity piece is love. fucking Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: love each other. Why are you doing it literally anything else? He had one rule, guys. Jaden: I Danielle: One rule. Love each other. Anyway, that's not what this is about. Jaden: Whoa. Okay. Danielle: I'm getting hyped up now. No, but like, but there's like it, it's I feel like it's kind of like that of like, I identify with that group and all well, not with that group. I identify with Jesus and Christianity. But there's also things that I'm like, that you Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: guys are crazy for believing that. You know, or like that's too Jaden: Right. Yeah. That's just plain Danielle: much. Right. And like I I think that's similar to what she's doing, where it's like, well, Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: I don't know if I buy into all of this. And like, we can disagree with it. And we're allowed to, right? You need people to, right. Jaden: Yeah, and you need people to. you need people to challenge large movements, especially because again, Danielle: Right. Jaden: I think that there's a real mass hysteria, group mind, hive think thing that can happen and those can be very dangerous Danielle: Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Jaden: no matter what the context is. So Danielle: Right, right. And it's so to me it underscores multitudes, critical thinking, critical examination, step away from the hive mind and think about what is true to you. You know, and how do Jaden: Yeah. Yes. Danielle: you live that out? Jaden: Mm-hmm. So shall we flip over to our tip of the week? Let's do it. Danielle: Let's do it. So my tip of the week is do you remember that bracelet that you sent me? Gosh, it was a couple years ago. Jaden: yes, I do. Danielle: Be kind of a bitch. and that's my tip. So a little context for folks and how I want you to apply this, I've been reflecting a lot and in different conversations with folks around when we're asked to go extra or when folks are cutting us off in conversations, which sometimes happens, and I'm guilty of doing Jaden: Mm. Danielle: it myself. But if we're getting cut off or people are stealing our ideas or not being helpful, whatever the case may be, I Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: want to give everyone permission to push back on that. and I Jaden: Ooh. Danielle: reference the be kind of a bitch because it can feel very mean, Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: but it is exactly what probably needs to happen. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: Is a little bit of firm pushback. And I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I'm like, I can be a bitch sometimes. And I think it may rub Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: people the wrong way. But I'm just trying to get shit done and get you to answer my question Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: or do a thing that you said you would do. And I'm being very direct and it feels bitchy to you, Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: but it's just me being direct, right? Let's just embrace our inner bitch a little bit. And Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: it's harder if you're, in a new role or you're younger. it took me a while to grow into this, right? You Jaden: yeah, you gotta develop your inner bitch. Danielle: And there you go. Mm-hmm. Jaden: And there you go. Well, I think that about does it, huh? Danielle: I think so. This was so fun. Thank you so much. This was great. Yay. Till next time. All right. Bye. Jaden: you. Yeah, well, till next time. See you later.