Latest / Your Estate Matters / Episode 73 - What Dead Dads Leave Behind with Scott Cunningham
Transcript
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Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today t..."><meta name="google" content="notranslate"><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, user-scalable=no, initial-scale=1.0, minimum-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=1.0"><meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge;"><meta name="fragment" content="!"><meta name="referrer" content="origin"><title>YEM ep73 Scott Cunningham - Google Docs</title><link rel="shortcut icon" href="https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/images/docs-favicon-2026-v2.ico"><link rel="chrome-webstore-item" href="https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/apdfllckaahabafndbhieahigkjlhalf"><script nonce="cDZpPhqyoUl7r2j95tmuFw">_docs_webfonts_fontFaces = null; _docs_webfonts_iframe_fontFaces = null;DOCS_timing['wpid']=new Date().getTime();</script><style 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Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it\u0027s estate related, we\u0027ll be talking about it. We\u0027re having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters. I\u0027m Nicole Garton. Today\u0027s episode is a little different. It\u0027s more personal. And I want to start with my own story in 1996. 30 years ago this year, I lost my father, Michael Garton. He was 46 and I was 23. And there\u0027s another layer to it. My father had also lost his own father at 46, in a plane crash. Two generations of men in my family, the same age, two families left to carry on. I\u0027ve now spent more than 25 years working in trusts and estates. I\u0027ve sat with hundreds of families. The documents matter. I will always say that. But they\u0027re not what families remember. Families remember whether they felt looked after, whether they really knew the person, or whether the important things were ever said out loud.\n \nNicole Garton 00:01:18 So today we\u0027re talking about grief, about meaning, and about the kind of legacy that no will or tax plan can hold on its own. My guest is Scott Cunningham. Scott is co-host with Roger Nairn of the Dead Dads podcast. It\u0027s a show about men who have lost their fathers and about everything that comes after he joined what he calls “the club no one asked to join” in 2021 when his own father died. By day, Scott is Senior Marketing Specialist with VanCity. Beyond the Boardroom, he co-hosts and produces Dead Dads as a creative outlet and as a way to open up the conversation about men\u0027s mental health. He believes in the power of storytelling to build community. Scott is also a Vancouver-based writer and cyclist. He\u0027s a husband, a father of, and a veteran of U13 hockey schedules. On his website, My Inner Soundtrack, he writes essays and short stories, many of them inspired by the songs stuck in his head, and he\u0027s hosted a podcast interviewing people in his hometown of Drumheller. But not just what they do for a living, but why they do it.\n \nNicole Garton 00:02:21 That question “why?” is close to my heart. And it\u0027s the same question at the centre of good estate planning. On their show, Scott and Roger talk about grief plainly with honesty and yes, with some dark humor. Their rule is simple: if it would not fit in a eulogy, it would probably end up on an episode. And they make room for every kind of father: the good, the complicated and everything in between. Many of you listening have lost a father. Some of you have been the executor. Some of you are watching a husband, a son, or a brother grieve. This conversation is for you, too. Scott, welcome. Thank you for being here in person. So Scott, thank you so much for joining us. I know you have a very successful podcast, so it\u0027s a pleasure and an honor to have you as a guest on ours. Thank you. So as we mentioned in the intro, your podcast is called the Dead Dads Podcast. But you, as we just chatted about, you often ask other people about their stories.\n \nNicole Garton 00:03:22 You don\u0027t often have the opportunity to talk about your dad. So tell me about your dad. Who was he? And if I was at your dinner table, what would I have noticed about him?\n \nScott Cunningham 00:03:32 My father\u0027s name. He was known by Sandy. He was Alexander. And that was sort of like a shorthand, I guess, in his era to be called Sandy. But he was Alexander. But he was known by Sandy, as he liked to say. He grew up without a silver spoon in his mouth. He had a very, working class, if you like, background. His parents were not really around when he was a kid, and he was raised a lot by sort of aunts, uncles, cousins and then eventually his grandmother. 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Right. So we have this cult of youth. Death is sanitized now. I mean, people used to die in community. It was. And, you know, I think there\u0027s a lot of denial or immortality narratives that we tell ourselves to avoid it. But maybe we\u0027ll get to that in a second. You know, what I\u0027m interested in is so you had, like, the classic blue collar dad that didn\u0027t like to explain things. So let\u0027s say maybe like a tough non-talker type. Right. So how do you think you\u0027ve so successfully transcended that. And in being able to communicate and help other men and explore this, like given that you didn\u0027t actually and as many men don\u0027t, didn\u0027t really have a role model for that.\n \nScott Cunningham 00:18:15 Well, the successful answer to that is that I had a mother as well. My mother was a talker, and I actually don\u0027t want to do a disservice to my father.\n \nScott Cunningham 00:18:24 He was a talker, but he maybe wasn\u0027t an emotional sharer, but he was certainly comfortable. He wasn\u0027t sort of stalwart in the corner, but his emotional intelligence and his introspection was just never there. Never had parents, never rest. So it wasn\u0027t there. But my mother was a talker and my mother was, although not necessarily of the generation where, you know, exploring your emotions and being vulnerable. She was much more open to that. But, you know, I could be a little bit introspective now, and I think it\u0027s kind of a combination if I\u0027m to look backwards in the lens. Some of the things: I was a voracious reader. I was also an uncomfortable kid. And so I spent a lot of time living in the world of other people in my mind. I spent a lot of time reading. I was sort of a pop culture aficionado, and so a lot of what I think makes me now interested in people is garnered from that. And so in my own life, I try to encourage reading with my children, because I really think reading for me was instrumental in teaching me how to be more emotionally aware.\n \nScott Cunningham 00:19:27 That EQ, I don\u0027t have any basis for that. That\u0027s my personal belief, although I know there is some research on it. I would say overall the genesis of my change towards being more emotional. It started as a kid. It was fanned, if you like, through my own parents, in their own ways. And then, I mean, I think part of it is just a genetic application. Like, I\u0027ve always been really interested in people. I\u0027ve always been really interested in, like what people are thinking or feeling. And I do feel a lot of empathy in my general life. And so for me, it is a natural progression. What changed is that I realized how much I was holding, like I was interested in those things, but I never really pushed myself to think about it internally.\n \nNicole Garton 00:20:11 So tell me about the men on your podcast because you see a cross-section of people. Like, what are the commonalities and differences you see. And how they experience their fathers’ mortality.\n \nScott Cunningham 00:20:24 I mean we\u0027ve kind of challenged ourselves with this. The kind of guy that wants to go on a podcast generally is honoring their father. That\u0027s the broad, you know, of the 20 or so that we\u0027ve done, the majority of them are they miss their father. And this is a connection point for them. And it\u0027s something that will be tangible in the future that they can revisit. And so there is a very common recurring arc of “my dad was a great man. He was fantastic. He was really my, you know, my role model, my touchstone.” And then they talk a lot about their commonalities. Or they say he was really doing everything that he could. He was exercising. He was eating right. And then he died. That\u0027s very common, which is he was a hero. I looked up to him. He was perfect. He was doing everything that I think he should do. 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var modelChunkParseEnd = new Date().getTime(); var parseTime = modelChunkParseEnd - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart; window['DOCS_appBootstrapReadyPromise'].then(function() {DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', parseTime); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(modelChunk);});})();</script><script nonce="cDZpPhqyoUl7r2j95tmuFw">var DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="cDZpPhqyoUl7r2j95tmuFw">(function() {var modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":21185,"s":" \nScott Cunningham 00:21:10 And I don\u0027t get it. That is a kind of a common trope: I don\u0027t get it. Like, why did he still die? Even though they know why he died and why we all have to die at some point, they struggle with that. A couple of other, I think challenges, are maybe a little bit, when they start looking back, they do feel a little bit of like, well, you know, my father wasn\u0027t perfect, which is also really interesting because our fathers are like us and like everybody, they\u0027re just humans. They\u0027re just out there doing their best. And some of the, some of the men that we\u0027ve talked to who are exploring their dads are realizing maybe sometimes in the session that their dads weren\u0027t perfect. And I always find that the most interesting, because they come in there with this sort of clear intention of just sort of putting them on this pedestal. But the point of the podcast is to hear what the process of grief has been like for them. So sometimes in real time, they\u0027re bringing up a little bit of the challenge about putting his memory to rest and thinking back about how, you know, he was a father.\n \nNicole Garton 00:22:04 So you don\u0027t have a lot of people that maybe have more of the complicated grief or the disappointment, or they miss what their father could have been, or?\n \nScott Cunningham 00:22:14 We\u0027ve had a couple of instances. Like, again, we seek them out. To be honest, we\u0027ve been trying because I do think it makes it interesting as an ability for men to look at this as a resource. We wanted to have a more wide variety. So we\u0027ve had a couple whose dads died very young for them. So most of the men are in their 40s or 50s, some of them whose dads died when they were in their 20s, you know, and some of the, you know, the relationships with their dads were a bit complicated. And so in those scenarios, it\u0027s really fascinating to me specifically because two of the scenarios are the same and that their dads died and they\u0027re in their 20s, and how they became dads and how they became kind of like what they think of as their dad is such a storied thing.\n \nScott Cunningham 00:22:54 We\u0027ve had a couple of conversations about men whose dads were not there for them, like they were kind of like mythological. They never really were present. I like those stories again because they\u0027re unique, but also because they\u0027re more wide open. I mean, they don\u0027t necessarily feel so compelled to put their dads on a pedestal cause they don\u0027t really know them. And so they are giving more thought into the questions about like, what does grief mean? What are you grieving? You don\u0027t know him. Like, how are you grieving? You\u0027re grieving a memory of a desire that you never achieved. And that is also really interesting.\n \nNicole Garton 00:23:31 And so what does it feel like for milestones for you after your dad\u0027s death. like, you know, the first Christmas, your birthday, a milestone for your children. What\u0027s that experience like?\n \nScott Cunningham 00:23:43 My first milestone, to be honest. My dad was an auto mechanic. He was a small town auto mechanic. Cars were his life. He was always really fascinated by cars. And for my whole life, how I was like.\n \nScott Cunningham 00:23:56 My relationship with the automobile was through him. I bought and owned nothing. He facilitated all of the relationships with automobiles. So when he died, about like six months after he died, we had to buy a car and I cried like I was totally like, “I have no idea what to do.” Like he had been. And it\u0027s embarrassing because I was in, you know, in my 40s. And I honestly had no idea. I was talking to my wife and saying, like, I totally am exposed here. 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I mean, you can kind of hide. There\u0027s other areas, like people don\u0027t partner anymore. People stay isolated because there are a lot of other reasons that you can. You can find solace in digital communication. You can, you know, your friendship groups can be more sustaining. And I think our generation is probably the most guilty of this right now, is, there\u0027s no need to need anyone else. You don\u0027t need anyone else. You can sustain your body. You can probably keep your mind active. And so you can kind of keep kicking down the road, kick the can down the road of dealing with that grief. If you don\u0027t really need to.\n \nNicole Garton 00:34:01 So, listening to you, there\u0027s macroeconomic changes. You know the decline in manufacturing, a lot of those largely blue collar jobs have been sort of restructured. And we\u0027re asking men to behave nicely in offices, I guess. And maybe that\u0027s a fit or not. And women are increasingly more autonomous. 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It sounds like societal and your upbringing and changes and that sometimes it\u0027s off putting because you try to eradicate or erase the problem. What can we do? What single action? And maybe men are more guilty of this.\n \nScott Cunningham 00:35:29 From this, like. Well, we want to fix it. The problem is broken. We want to fix it. The switch is off. We want to turn it off. That\u0027s not achievable. We\u0027re not going to fix the entirety of this problem in our lifetime. So part of me, in my personal feelings of the podcast, is acknowledging we\u0027re not here to change men\u0027s mental health. We\u0027re here to maybe through the course of our podcast and our conversations, help a couple of guys or help you know, a few more than we did the year before, in the year before. But trying to make it not feel like, you know, that old adage, like, how do you eat an elephant, right? That is one thing. 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