Latest / Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge / Breaking News: The conversation continues with Dr. Hillary Goldsher

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Breaking News: The conversation continues with Dr. Hillary Goldsher · Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: If you or anyone you know is a victim of
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: sexual assault or abuse, call RAINN's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: That's 1-800-656-4673.
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: Hi, you guys.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: So welcome back to another episode of Dirty Rush.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: I am Jen Fessler joined by Alisa Donovan. Hello, Ms. Donovan.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Hi, Jen.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: So today's Dirty Rush is not sort of our typical episode.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Usually when we are recording Dirty Rush pods, they are
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: really fun. Oftentimes light, not always, not always. We hit some,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: there are some heavy subjects that we discuss. We discuss
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: a lot about obviously sororities, Greek life, sororities and fraternities, um,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: and everything that sort of comes along with that. But
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: today is a different kind of episode and one that
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: we feel like is really important. And we want to
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: talk about something that's going on in the news that
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: I think probably most of our listeners already know about.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: We've been following the very disturbing allegations surrounding the Cornell
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: 7 and are bringing on some experts today to get
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: more information about the case. And Lisa, you and I
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: spoke you know, before, uh, before filming. And I was
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: telling you that I am just really trying to take
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: all of this in and hear all the different sides.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: My instincts, like I think most humans, my instincts start
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: to jump and figure out what's going on. Sometimes before
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: I've gotten all of the information, uh, especially when it
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: comes to to a case that hits hard like this
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: one does. But I'm really glad that we're going to
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: have some experts on who can tell us, you know,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: what to, who can interpret all of the information for us.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: You know, this is a really, I have extraordinarily strong
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: feelings about this. And I think, but to your point,
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  Speaker 3: these are allegations, right? But, you know, let's get real here.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: No one This is not, I think what this has
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: been triggering for every female that I know, I can
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: just say that out loud and unequivocally. And I think
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: what is so upsetting is that this also does not
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: seem to be an outlier because the outcry of outrage
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: about this has also included a plethora of women speaking
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: out and saying that this has happened to them and
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: that this type of rape and assault has been happening
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: on campuses for decades at least. And I don't know
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: how to metabolize that. Already knowing that the large majority
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: of women that I know, myself included, have been victims
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: of sexual assault or rape. And I'm not even talking
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: about that. I'm saying that this particular... Gang rape at
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: a college fraternity has been happening for decades. And I just,
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  Speaker 3: I don't know how to not be utterly overwhelmed by that.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, I, yes, I also have been victim, a victim
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: of sexual assault. That's for another episode. And I definitely
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: get triggered just even hearing about or talking about sexual assault.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: I think what upsets me so much is that I
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: feel like This is what women have to do all
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: the time. They just have to have 100% proof. Let
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: me show you all the ways in which these horrible
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: things happen to me. And what is always left behind
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: is that no one, when you are the victim of
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: sexual assault, you do not want to talk about it.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: You do not want to be reminded of it. You
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: already have enough shame and guilt about it, which is
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: just baked in.
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  Speaker 2: So we're going to now go into the facts. Dr.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Hilary Goldsher, welcome. Thank you. Welcome to During Rush. It's
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: so nice to have an expert here to help guide
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: us a little bit.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you. So we're just going to jump right in.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: And when you hear that a large group of young
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: men were aware of disturbing conversations and behavior and no
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  Speaker 2: one spoke up, what goes through your mind as a psychologist?
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  Speaker 2: Is that normal? Is that what happens?
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  Speaker 4: So many things go through my mind. And I think
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  Speaker 4: we have to think of this through a number of
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: lenses because it's so complex. And, you know, when you
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: ask the question, is this what happens? None of us
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  Speaker 4: want the answer to be yes. And I hope the
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  Speaker 4: answer generally speaking is no, but does it bring our
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  Speaker 4: attention to a phenomenon that happens with kids whose brains
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  Speaker 4: are underdeveloped? This is not an excuse. It is not
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  Speaker 4: a justification. I'm just explaining. a phenomenon so that we
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  Speaker 4: can become more aware of it and intervene as a
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  Speaker 4: society and particularly as parents. And the phenomenon to which
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  Speaker 4: I'm alluding, I mean, this is a, the clinical term
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  Speaker 4: is called pluralistic silence, pluralistic silence, which is a dynamic
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  Speaker 4: in a group setting where there is an assumption that
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: everyone else thinks the thing is okay and And each
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  Speaker 4: individual may be contemplating the idea that it's not okay,
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  Speaker 4: but because they deeply believe because of everybody else's silence
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  Speaker 4: that everybody else thinks it's okay, nobody says anything. So
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  Speaker 4: it's like a tacit nonverbal agreement to not intervene. And
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  Speaker 4: that is a group dynamic. And the brain doesn't fully
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: develop until 25. And so are people more susceptible to
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: that dynamic under 25? Sure. But we don't stop there.
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  Speaker 4: I want to make sure that everyone listening hears my messaging.
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  Speaker 4: This is just an exploration of the dynamics. It is
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  Speaker 4: not an excuse or justification. And I think as parents
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  Speaker 4: and as a society, one thing we have to take
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  Speaker 4: seriously from this set of events is that our goal
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: as parents isn't to just have our kid not be
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: one of the seven. It's to have our kid not
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  Speaker 4: be one of the 50. And maybe some parents are
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: having discussions about consent and clearly they need to have
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: more of them at a younger age and more regularly,
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  Speaker 4: but we need to be having discussions about what does
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: it look like when you're a witness to something wrong
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: and how do you show up under those extremely complicated circumstances?
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  Speaker 3: Is there a difference psychologically between between actively participating in
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: harmful behavior and witnessing it, but choosing not to intervene?
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  Speaker 4: Sure. I mean, the criminal acts, um, that allegedly occurred
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: are illegal, unethical, reprehensible. And so to cross the line
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  Speaker 4: into that kind of behavior feels definitionally different, uh, than, than, uh,
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  Speaker 4: being a witness and I'm hesitating even as I said it,
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  Speaker 4: because they're both on the spectrum of really, really bad.
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  Speaker 4: But to witness oneself engaging in the violation of a
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  Speaker 4: woman in that position is a whole other level of
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  Speaker 4: moral violation that I think is appropriate to separate out.
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  Speaker 4: Having said that, I don't want to remotely mitigate the
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  Speaker 4: responsibility of being a witness to this information and not
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: intervening in real time or thereafter. There are a number
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  Speaker 4: of opportunities for any one of the 50 plus kids
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: that were associated with this information. There were a number
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  Speaker 4: of opportunities that someone could have intervened both in real
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: time or afterwards, and it didn't happen over and over again.
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  Speaker 2: Dr. Goldsher, so I'm wondering one of these 50 boys
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  Speaker 2: in an ideal world, maybe he wasn't there, he heard
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: it in the rumor mill, what should he have done
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: after just hearing it?
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  Speaker 4: I'm so glad you're asking this question because we have
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: to get practical and tactical. We can speak like in
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: a lofty manner to our kids, like you should step
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: in and do the right thing. Well, what does that
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: mean when you're a 17-year-old kid who's invested in being
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: liked by your frat brothers, right? I mean, that's real.
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: We have to think in the mindset and the language
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: of our kids who are confronting these things. We might
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: like them to be able to think at a higher
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: level of like, what do I care about whether or
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: not I'm ostracized? I need to stand up for what's right.
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  Speaker 4: And we want to encourage that, but we need to
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  Speaker 4: give them like a runway and a pathway of communication
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: that when they're witness or have knowledge to things like this.
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  Speaker 4: And so a number of ways to think about it.
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  Speaker 4: There is always an opportunity to report anonymously, always. And
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  Speaker 4: if one feels threatened, nervous, fearful of reporting this kind
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  Speaker 4: of possible potential behavior and being excluded or ostracized, I
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  Speaker 4: would rather have the information shared either with one's parents
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  Speaker 4: or a trusted other adult who can report it to
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  Speaker 4: the appropriate authorities anonymously, for example. And so that is,
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  Speaker 4: and folks listening might sort of be like, that's, that's
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  Speaker 4: hiding and not embodying the level of, you know, sort
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: of confidence and resilience that we'd want to see in
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  Speaker 4: our kids. True. But given the clear messaging that this
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  Speaker 4: is a big ask, Given what data that's coming out,
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  Speaker 4: we need to give a path that kids find accessible.
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  Speaker 2: And what would you tell specifically to a kid, your kid,
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  Speaker 2: let's say, hypothetically, who heard a rumor that there was
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: a girl in the frat house, and I'm sure they
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: all heard it in different ways, who had a three-way,
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  Speaker 2: had another three-way, maybe wasn't conveyed to this particular kid.
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  Speaker 2: that she was not, um, that she was not consenting.
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  Speaker 2: What would you suggest a boy did in that situation?
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  Speaker 2: So he hears that there was three kids, there were
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  Speaker 2: six kids. What he hears from his buddy is that,
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  Speaker 2: you know, she was into it. What does he do then? Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, it's, it, It's really complicated because that
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  Speaker 4: set of circumstances you are describing, it's sort of a
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  Speaker 4: gray area in terms of whether something unethical, illegal, non-consensual happened.
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  Speaker 4: I would ask parents and kids that are listening, because
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  Speaker 4: this arena is so sensitive that when we hear material
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  Speaker 4: that touches this part of our world and our society
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  Speaker 4: that we're getting active about it. I'm talking ideal. I'm
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: talking aspirational. I'm sure there might be lots of folks
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  Speaker 4: who sort of say like, well, that's the data. What's
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  Speaker 4: the kid supposed to do? It's not clear if something
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  Speaker 4: quote bad happened, but because this is such a sensitive
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  Speaker 4: topic and it is very difficult for victims to curate
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  Speaker 4: a voice, I would still recommend that it is shared
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: with a trusted adult so that More information can be
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  Speaker 4: gathered in an anonymous fashion so that if there's something there, there,
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  Speaker 4: it can be uncovered.
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  Speaker 3: Can we not agree that a young woman with still
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  Speaker 3: not a fully formed brain in a situation with, in
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  Speaker 3: a sexual drug fueled situation with six boys, can we
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  Speaker 3: all agree that that is not an okay situation? I
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  Speaker 3: appreciate that we're trying to be very diplomatic here, but
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  Speaker 3: I'm sorry. That is putting onus on this woman for
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  Speaker 3: her to this young woman to be able to say,
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  Speaker 3: Oh no.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: Now I don't, I mean, I think we've gone off
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  Speaker 3: the rails.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. I don't think it's okay either.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: Any young boy that sees that should know or hears
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  Speaker 3: that his red flag should be going up and saying,
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  Speaker 3: wait a second. Just you, my one guy friend saying, no,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: she really wants it.
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  Speaker 2: Really?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I'm saying that the kid that we're trying to get
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  Speaker 2: the 50 kids to own this, not just the kids
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: that were there, not just the friends of the kids
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  Speaker 2: that were there. We're trying to get the 50 kids
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  Speaker 2: who don't always get the direct information. As a matter
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  Speaker 2: of fact, probably get a lot of times very warped information.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: And yes, we hope that that kid has enough wherewithal
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  Speaker 2: to say, huh, seven boys, one girl, drugs, sex, something
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: doesn't sound right here, but I guess I'm trying to
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: be practical about it.
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  Speaker 4: As am I. And Elisa, your emotional reaction is more
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  Speaker 4: than appropriate. I can't even think of the right, of course.
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: I mean, it is, as the three of us are
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  Speaker 4: sitting here, that fact pattern is insane. And the idea
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: that there's some mitigating circumstance feels like an incredulous concept, right?
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: And that is not what we're promoting here. But Jennifer,
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: you're talking about if we're getting in the minds of
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: the 50, this is a practical, hopefully accessible way to
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: think of it, which is okay, you don't know what you,
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: you don't know, but if this is the category of
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: material that you are hearing, given this event that we're
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: talking about from this point forward, this is the conversation
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: parents should be having with our kids. This thing happened
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: on our collective watch as a society. So now the
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: paradigm shifts, anything under the realm of this data, this
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: set of data, it needs to be told to a
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: trusted other period. And And there's nothing else for you
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: to do thereafter. We don't need our 17-year-olds to be
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: detectives to figure out what's going on, right? That's not
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: what we're talking about. But having the wherewithal, the courage,
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: the instruction from parents that like, this is the ask.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: This is what you must do given what has unfolded.
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: And I imagine most of us as parents have had
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: a version of these conversations with our kids and our
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: boys in particular, but not exactly this.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Not quite this.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: And maybe some have, and with the intensity and pointedness
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: that it needs to be conveyed, but now we have
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: no excuse, right? It needs to be discussed in this manner.
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: And I agree, the threshold now is anything in that
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: realm where a female is in a compromised position, it
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: needs to be discussed with a trusted other, period.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: So can you just talk about why someone like Jane
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Doe may stay silent about a traumatic experience for years?
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: And then what do you think eventually made her feel
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: ready to speak about it?
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: I'm pausing because there's so much emotion involved in the
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: trajectory of a victim of this kind of horrific crime.
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: And I want to get my whole thought out because
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: if what I'm about to say is taken in pieces,
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: it could be out of context. But because of the
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: data that appears to be forthcoming, which is that maybe
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: there was some part of this that was consensual. And
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: I say this with a big question mark. You've both
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: already alluded to the other factors, which is she's a
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: single person, woman with a bunch of men and There's
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: alcohol and maybe drugs involved. But if it is possibly
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: true that there was a piece of this that was consensual,
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: oftentimes for victims, if it began with one expectation and
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: then evolves or devolves into something else, a rape, a
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: gang rape, there is great guilt and shame that somehow
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: they co-created it because there was consent to some piece
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: of it. And I want to make it really clear
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: to listeners that that is just a falsehood. A woman
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: can say yes to one thing and no to another.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: And I imagine that that piece of it, if it's true,
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: interrupted her ability to report feeling like she had some responsibility.
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: And I imagine, sadly, unfortunately, devastatingly, that when we don't
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: deal with intense trauma. And when I say deal with,
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, both spiritually, therapeutically, through the law, we get symptoms,
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: we are unwell. And if she was unable to seek
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: the right counsel, both legally and psychologically for a period
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: of time due to shame, at some point, the weight
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: of it probably became so overwhelming that she felt compelled
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: to speak. Maybe she shared it with trusted others who
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: supported her in that pursuit. But oftentimes, certainly not always,
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: but oftentimes it does take a victim a while because
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: of the shroud of shame. And that over time, the
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: analysis of what's worse, staying silent or coming forward. And
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: we're in the land of bad choices, staying silent or
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: going forward. Look at what she's going through. The level
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: of judgment and criticism in her story is wildly unacceptable.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: But you're in the land of bad choices. And finally,
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: she was ready, hopefully with the right support, to make
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: this choice in her journey to healing and wellness.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: I think that, Dr. Gulcher, I want you to repeat
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: what you just said for our listeners who, again, this
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: is a podcast about sororities. And I think it's really
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: what you said is particularly poignant that giving consent to
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: one thing doesn't mean giving consent to all things. And
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: I think that's a really good message and takeaway for,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the girls that are listening here.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: And I hope that you guys take that in.
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: Yes. And to get really concrete about it and maybe
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: in some uncomfortable material, but we need to be talking
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: about this more than not. And so you can find
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: yourself in a scenario where you said yes to something
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: and then you realize it doesn't feel good or the
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: next step doesn't feel good. You have the right to
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: then say no emphatically in any way that you can.
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: And I want to empower women with this concept that
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: just because you said yes to something doesn't mean you've
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: lost the right to then say no. And it can
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: feel awkward. It can feel embarrassing. It can make the
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: other person or persons involved angry, I suppose, right? And
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: so it's putting yourself on the line emotionally and in
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: other ways to come forward and say, I know I
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: said yes, but now I'm saying no. but those words
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: can be said if you can curate them. And having
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: said that, I don't want anyone listening who has been
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: in that circumstance and was unable to cultivate those words
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: internally and say them out loud to not feel shame.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: When we are in compromised positions and feel overwhelmed or
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: shut down due to trauma, sometimes we cannot eke out
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: the words to protect ourselves in the moment.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: And I think that I just remember for myself being
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: not just in college, but being in situations that once
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: I was in it, I was in it.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not, I'm not saying that each of those cases
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: was assault.
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that, but I'm just saying having, you know,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: now I'm a 58 year old woman as a 17
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: to whatever age, I don't know, 30 year old or whatever,
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: having the wherewithal to say, huh, you know, I'm here.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: I put myself here. I wanted to be here. Now
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I don't really anymore as I personally feel like I
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: probably didn't have the strength to do that back in
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: the day.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: And then we take the repercussions of that with us
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: as we grow up.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: That's right. Yeah.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: And then that becomes the norm. That becomes holding more shame.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: That becomes maybe we make decisions that we don't really
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: want to be making. It sets us off in the
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: wrong direction. And I think there has been such an
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: outcry about this. And it's been so triggering for every woman, actually,
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: that I know. I said this before, and I will
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: say it again. And like being kept up at night
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: about it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: Yes. Yes. It is getting to an unbelievable pain point
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: of our culture on every front. And we're talking about
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: another piece of this, which is exactly what you were saying, Jennifer,
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: that it is an enormous ask for a teenage girl
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: to be in the kind of circumstance that we're talking about.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: 20-something-year-old girl.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: That's right. That's right. Or any woman, really.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: To have the wherewithal, as you said, to say, wait
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: a minute, I changed my mind. Or wait a minute,
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: I was okay with what was happening before. I'm not now.
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: It's an enormous ask. And it is at least a
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: conversation we need to be having more amongst mothers and daughters,
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: amongst friends, amongst sorority sisters, with therapists and their clients, etc.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: What gets in the way of us being able to
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: say the thing? And can we practice it? And then
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: how do we process and deal with it if we don't,
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: that it isn't through the lens of shame, that it
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: isn't through the lens of self-criticism and judgment, that we
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: recognize this as a very, very fraught paradigm. There's a
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: lot of pressure on women in this paradigm to show
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: up and take control of the situation to protect themselves.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: So it needs to be thought about through both lenses, right?
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: We need to help our young boys and our young
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: men and our men making sure that they're checking and
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: double checking and double checking and being cognizant of not
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: just words, but energy and checking in. And we need
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: to have more conversations with our young girls about their
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: right to change their minds and how to process it
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: when they miss it. Because we're- We're not talking about dichotomous.
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: We don't want to frame this as good, bad, right, wrong.
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: You either presented yourself or you didn't. That's not the
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: conversation we're having here. We're offering this as an option.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: We're recognizing how hard it is and we need to
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: band together to keep talking about how do we help
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: women and young women show up in these arenas in
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: ways that are self-advocating or to help them when they
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: can't find their words.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, we may not be having the conversation of
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: you shouldn't have, you should have, but that is the
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: conversation that's happening around us. And are you surprised by,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: because Lisa and I talking about this as well, I'm
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: seeing a lot on social media and it would, I
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: would have thought it would have all gone one way.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: It's not, it's people are deep in defense of these
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: boys as well. Are you surprised by that?
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: Yes and no. I'm, painfully aware of the framing of
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: women in these circumstances and young women in these circumstances.
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: Although for it to occur that it being a criticism
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: and judgment of this young girl to be occurring in
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: sort of this like mass sort of communication and dialogue
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: around it, it feels confronting, certainly.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: But I'm not entirely surprised by it. And I like
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: to think that there are a number of dynamics going
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: on that contribute to it. You know, some of it
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: is rooted in misogynistic old.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: Isn't that what it is? I mean, how many times
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: have we heard this? I can name every Stanford, the swimmer,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: the North Carolina case in Arizona. Like this just goes
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: on and on and on. One of the things I
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: think that is so deeply upsetting and that I have
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: a really hard time metabolizing as a mother of a
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: 14-year-old girl is this did not happen in a silo.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: This is not an outlier. This has happened multiple times
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: in multiple different environments and campuses and fraternities. We have
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: a systemic problem. And I am an idealist at heart.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: And I have to tell you, this has made me,
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: I'm becoming fatalistic and feeling helpless. And that's the last
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: thing that I ever, ever want to feel and quite
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: honestly ever do feel. But I'm having a really hard
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: time right now with this.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: And how do I talk to my daughter? To get
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: back to what you said, which I think is important,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: this difference between we're always teaching our girls how to
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: protect yourself, get a pepper spray, don't walk home alone,
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: make sure you tell a friend. That baffles me that
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: that has been normalized as opposed to teaching boys how
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: to behave properly and to respect women. But what you
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: had said about.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: You know, more teaching our girls how to speak up
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: for themselves and how to be, as opposed to like
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: protect and defend themselves.
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: If we kind of can have, teach them to have
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: a voice beforehand, maybe that can kind of lead us
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: more in the right direction.
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: And that it becomes more thematic. Moms are talking to daughters,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: friends are talking to friends about it, right? It becomes
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: more part of the culture. Like, What would you say?
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: What would you do? How would we show up in
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: this moment? Let's practice that it becomes part of how, unfortunately,
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: but how young women conceptualize part of how they move
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: through the world, which isn't just pepper spray and walking
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: home in groups, but how do I use my voice?
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: What would that look like? What would it feel like?
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: And how do we make this part of the conversation
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: as young women and as mothers and mentors that are
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: guiding them? And you're right, we can't have that part
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: of the conversation without having the other part of the conversation,
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: which is how do we have deeper dives into conversations
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: with our young boys? And it's been interesting. One of
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: my areas, especially as a psychologist, is parenting. I work
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: with parents of kiddos that have stuff going on, right?
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: And well-meaning, amazing, well-intentioned parents through parenting this occurrence of
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: boys have recognized that like, I don't think I went
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: deep enough. I think I've been talking to my boys
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: about not being one of the seven, not really about
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: not being one of the 50. And I'm not sure
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: that I've gone deep enough in terms of, well, literally
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: what do I do in that moment? And here's how
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: I would like you to talk to women. Here are
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: the things I want you to ask them. Here are
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: the signs I want you to look for. To know
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: to back off, to know to step back, to know
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: to pause, to know to take a break. I think many,
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: many people have not had extensive conversations with their sons
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: in that regard, not because they're not amazing great parents,
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: but because this issue is so fraught, it's so obsessive.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: And I think we're having, to your point, at least
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: in many ways, we knew this. In many ways, we
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: don't take it in or the knowledge and understanding of
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: it doesn't stick with us, whatever it is. But this
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: is certainly another version of a wake-up call for us
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: to come back together and think about How do we
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: address this? This is going to be a multi-layered problem approach, right?
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: It's systemic and it has to come through the curation
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: of discussions with our young men and women.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Can I ask you something, doctor? I want to know specifically.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: So now We're talking to our daughters and we're telling them,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: we're empowering them, giving them information like just because you
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: consented to one thing doesn't mean that that consent lasts
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: throughout the night, all of that. But also talking to
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: them practically like go home in a group. Don't drink
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: too much. Are we almost embedding in them this sort
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: of shame, right? Then they go and they drink too much.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Do I say that to my son? I actually do.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: I actually do say that to my son, you know.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: And I've always said that to both of them, but
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm just wondering, like, how do you get
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: this message across to your daughter? Do you give her
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: the practical advice of don't go with a boy alone
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: to his frat house, don't drink too much without sort of,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: you know, then almost shaming them when they do?
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah. It's such a good question. And one of my
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: favorite sayings is two things are true. And I use
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: this endlessly with clients and my own children, which is,
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: Two things are true. The first thing that's true is
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: I don't want you to drink a bunch. I don't
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: want you to walk home alone at night. I really
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: prefer that you don't go to a fraternity house by yourself.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: But the other thing that's true is that you might. Right.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: Because you're young, you might get caught up. Maybe a
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: decision that you make one night for whatever sets of reasons.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: And if we're talking about the second possibility, here's what
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: I want you to know. So that you're very clear.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: I want to be very clear with you, my love.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: I don't think you should. But I also know what
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: it's like to be young and to be caught up
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: and to be impulsive. And so I also want to
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: talk about, well, what happens if you do?
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I actually think that's really, really helpful.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: And I know women as well as young women, but
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: their mothers listen. So I think that is just great
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: practical advice. Yes.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: And so you're getting into the second part of the conversation,
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: be practical. Well, what happens if you do? What happens
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: if you find yourself in a situation where you feel
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: now obligated to perform sexually? What are you doing, right?
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: What happens if you get there and you realize, oh,
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: now I'm scared. What are you doing? Who are you calling?
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: Who are you talking to? So to really try to
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: problem solve and parents who are listening might sort of like,
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: isn't that encouraging them to do that or giving them
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: resources to... you know, make their plight if they find
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: themselves in those moments easier. It doesn't really work like that.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: You know, we were explicit about like, here are two truths, right?
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: And I am holding them and that makes it complicated,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: but that not backing away from the complication of this discussion.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: I have a question that's probably not going to be
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: very welcome on this podcast, but I have to ask it.
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: When you look at a case like this, what does
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: it tell you about the power of fraternity culture and
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: group mentality, specifically among young men? And, you know, many
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: people believe that fraternities should be banned all together. So
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: what's your take on all of that?
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, well, there's, you know, the notion I
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: was talking about at the top of our discussion, pluralistic silence,
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: I didn't make that up. That's a well-researched scientific notion.
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: And most of us have heard about the idea of
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: group think, it can be damaging and very powerful. And
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: when that phenomenon is paired with an underdeveloped mind, it
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: was just also a scientific fact that the brain doesn't
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: fully develop until 25. It's just true. And so there's
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: risk factors. And to deny that is silly. It's just factual.
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure that means leap ban fraternities, but there
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: should be much more thought into having the type of parties,
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: events that are typically unmonitored, monitored.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Agreed.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We have done podcasts. We also share a podcast
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: called Killer Thriller. We did one about boys that were
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: hazed to death. And, and that had nothing to do
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: obviously with the girls, but that has to do with
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: fraternities and all of that. But listen, I, I, I
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: cannot thank you enough.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Really.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: We cannot thank you enough for coming on. I think
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: that this is really valuable. There are pearls of wisdom
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: here that I hope that the girls and the moms
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: listening take with them. I know that, that I'm going to,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: even though my daughter is 24, Rachel, don't drink too much,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: but if you do, here's this.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: And I want to say I'm actually encouraged to hear
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: that you have clients who are, you know, great parents,
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: great people of young boys. And they're questioning saying, oh,
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: I can maybe do a little bit more with this.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: I think that's phenomenal. Like that's what we need.
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: We may want to ask you to come back if
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't mind very much because I think this thing
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: is going to drag out for a while.
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: So we'd love to have you back.
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I'd love to continue the conversation. Thank you. Yeah.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.