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Misremembering · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

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History is strange, it's alien, and it won't give us what we
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would like to have. Welcome to hour 3 of a Tuesday
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morning on Bill MC Live, the 12th of November 2024.
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Headline at billmc.com. For reasons that will become
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evident during the hour. Nazi German baby rappers we
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talked about in our 6:00 hour, just as a way to explain it to
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the early audience there. It'll come clear to you during
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this hour as Dave Bowman joins us from Silverdale, WA with Dave
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does history in our three of our program today.
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And Dave, I want to start the hour, since we're going to be
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talking Nazis and the like with this Talkback call that came in
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earlier this morning. Morning, Bill.
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Morning, Dave. Norm.
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Over in Melbourne you have a group of people that don't know
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the true meaning of fascism. So it makes me wonder, do these
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people know the true meaning of dystopian?
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Just wondering, have a good one. Bye now.
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Tied into our first hour topic, Norm, thank you.
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Good to have you along and appreciate that.
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So Dave, with the idea of Nazism and fascism in play, where are
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you taking us today? For Dave does history.
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If we were to open up the phone lines, and I'm not suggesting
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that we do, but if we were. To in the last segment, we will,
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yeah. And we ask the question, why
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study history? I can almost guarantee, in fact,
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I don't think you could get good enough odds to even make a bet
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worthwhile that somewhere between 90 and 95% of the
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answers would be along the lines of, you know, those who do not
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study history are doomed to repeat it.
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Something like that. The answer would be, you know
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that that quote. Those who don't study history
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are doomed to repeat it. The answer we get, though, is
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common, but I think it's also misunderstood and even
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misapplied. Not to mention the fact that,
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miss it's misquoted. The real reason to study history
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has very little to do with humanity's nature to repeat
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mistakes and errors. Our very nature as human beings
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is we're going to do it that way anyway.
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Consider this. On June 30th, I'm sorry, June
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23rd, 1940, the German Fuhrer Adolf Hitler visited Paris for
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the first and only time in his life.
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And during that visit he was photographed and and went to and
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stood at the tomb of Napoleon Bonaparte, gazed down upon the
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grave of that great French general and emperor.
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And one could reasonably argue that it is not unlikely that
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Hitler was completely aware of what led to Napoleon's eventual
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defeat. And yet he proceeded to make
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exactly the same strategic error that Napoleon had made.
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He invaded Russia unprepared for the harsh conditions and the
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vast land with the Russians could trade for time.
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In other words, Hitler completely knew the history of
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the Napoleonic Wars. In fact, he would write about it
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and later he would directly say, quote, we shall not make the
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same mistake Napoleon made, UN quote, even as he made exactly
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the same mistake that the great French emperor had made.
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Knowledge of history is not what Santayana had been talking about
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when he made that quote. So if the quote is correct, why
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should we study history? And what does it what, what,
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what does that effort have to do with today's politically charged
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environment? One of the moments of history
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that most have forgotten about came this day, November 12th,
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1938, when that same Adolf Hitler, who was still two years
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away from gazing down upon Napoleon's final resting place,
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had his country passed another law.
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One in a very long series of law that declared that Jews from
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this day forward would be completely eliminated from the
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economic life of Germany in a nation that was leading the
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charge on anti-Semitism across the European country continent.
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Sorry, Jews were now legally forbidden to have a garden in
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their home. No St. could be named after a
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person of Jewish descent. Jews could not attend the
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theater. They could not go to operas or
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concerts. Jewish children were barred from
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attending public schools, and as of today, in 1938, no Jew could
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own or operate any business in the German Reich.
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Now, on the one hand, such laws were just a harbinger of things
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that were going to come on. On the other hand, they should
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serve as a reminder to us today, as an admonition, that slopes
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which are slippery often lead to painful falls, and Santayana's
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quote tells us that we should remember that.
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We pick it up in 60 seconds on 92.7 FM WMMB.
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Dave Bowman with us. Dave does history, taking a look
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at Nazis in history and understanding of it and well,
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we'll get there eventually. Dave, where we at?
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Let us go back in time to the mid 3 hundreds of BCE.
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I, I, I hesitate to use Roman names because the Rome the way
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the Romans passed down names is is confusing.
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But a man by the name of Scipio Emilianus, who was also known as
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Scipio Africanus the younger, who was the guy that led the
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Third Punic War so forth and so on.
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Again, history that is beyond the scope of this was concerned
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about his son and his son was coming of age and was starting
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to get involved with Roman politics and was the society
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wasn't what it was supposed to be.
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And so according to Cicero, Scipio sat down with his son and
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proceeded to give him a dialogue, a speech as it were.
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And in this dialogue, which is an absolutely amazing piece of
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both literature and politics, he would ask his son, take a Roman
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virtue, whatever it might be, hatred of a tyranny.
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Why do Romans hate a tyranny? And his son would then answer
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the question and give a detailed response, why we hate tyranny.
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And that led to this Roman virtue that we stand against
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tyranny. And he went through a whole
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series of Roman virtues, Roman teachings, Roman ideals.
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It's an amazing piece of work. I, I keep saying to myself, I
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need to do something similar with America, but just haven't
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had the time. The important thing was that not
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only was Scipio's son getting this lesson in history, this
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idea of why we think the way we do, but it was being preserved
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for all time as Cicero would recreate it later in his book.
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Now, you might argue some of what historians like to say of a
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later tradition might look at some of this Roman history and
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say, but that's not what happened.
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You know, I wouldn't call it revisionist history, but it's
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this idea that, well, that might be a little murky or a little
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mythologically based. Like the Greeks, you know, the
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Greeks believed in the gods and Zeus neck and stuff.
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They saw that as history. We see it as mythology.
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But what we need to understand is that formed the foundations
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of those societies. It inculcated in them the
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values, the virtues, the beliefs that that society had and
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whether or not you like them or agree with them or whatever.
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You have to understand that the people who founded the United
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States of America understood that history, understood those
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ideals and virtues from that viewpoint to them, this was not
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mythology. It was not that.
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This was in fact history. And particularly of Rome, when
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you go back to, you know, the, the expulsion of the Tarquinian
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kings and, and the likes of those and all these ideas that
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built these Roman virtues were seen as history.
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And it's that history that embeds.
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I like that. I prefer the word inculcate.
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It's one of my favorite words into that society.
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Those values, in other words, by reciting this history, and you
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can see this in the Bible, by reciting these histories, by
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reciting these stories, by reciting these ideas, you teach,
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you remember, as Santayana would have said, this history which
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then embeds in you those virtues, those values, those
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principles that that society finds useful.
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In fact, during the last century of the Roman Empire, there was a
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huge what, what you would call a countercultural movement, a
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1960s in Rome. If you were that rejected all of
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that previous history, rejected all of those values and virtues,
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and by rejecting those ideas, by rejecting those teachings, what
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did they end up with? A century of civil war that
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eventually leads to the fall of the Republic and in doing so
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created the Roman Empire by rejecting, not remembering as
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Santayana would have said, that history.
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So let's start there. The reason we study history is
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to remember it because it inculcates those values.
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And when we don't do that, well, that's when we end up with
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problems, and that's probably where we are today.
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With problems. Yeah, where we start calling
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each other Nazis. Well, and we are doing that and
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we'll dig into that part of it as Dave does.
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History continues on Bill Mick live.
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And Dave, we're getting ready to talk about Nazis here and
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calling each other Nazis, as you said, as we headed into that
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information brain headline@billmick.com today.
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Nazi German baby rappers. When I was a telephone operator,
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we had a woman who was in an institution for those with
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mental issues and she had a telephone or got access to a
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telephone and it happened a couple of times a month maybe.
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So maybe it was a hallway pay phone or something.
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And she would dial 0. We would come on and we would
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say operator and she would say Nazi German baby rappers.
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And our rules were you got to be polite to everybody.
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It doesn't matter what they say to you.
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So we ended up having to deal with this crazy lady.
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Time and time again. It seems like we're getting more
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of the crazies in this society. And I know it frustrates you to
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no end that the flippant throwing around of the name Nazi
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as an insult, which it is, but it it's also done unknowingly.
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Tell me your side of this thing as we continue here.
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Well, I was, I was listening to the Friday show and it was
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obvious to me that people being called a Nazi hits a nerve and
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and it should, it should hit a nerve.
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But it seemed like on Friday, particularly callers were were
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really having an issue with that.
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It was a bad campaign strategy. I'll you know, I don't want to
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spend a lot of time on the campaign here, but the idea of
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calling your opponents one of the worst things you can
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possibly call them is not a good campaign strategy because people
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may not know why it's bad, but they realize that, you know,
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calling somebody that is, is a bad thing.
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Look, in the political charge, the politically charged climate
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of today, calling someone a Nazi or a fascist has become far too
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commonplace. And it's nothing new.
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I mean, we can go back to the George, George HW Bush where
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they used to paint the pictures of him with the Hitler mustache
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and stuff like that. It's nothing new.
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But it is something that as we've gotten further away from
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the Second World War has become more and more common.
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And you have to wonder if the reason for that goes back to the
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Santa Ana quote. Those who do not remember the
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past are condemned to repeat it. It's not learning the past, It's
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remembering the past. It's remembering those lessons.
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It's understanding those values, those virtues, those ideals that
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Once Upon a time were inculcated by the study of history that are
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now missing. How often do schools nowadays
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talk about what an actual Nazi or a fascist is?
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Is there any economic teaching in the schools about the
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difference between fascism and socialism, communism, any of
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those things? And if you were to look at the
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actual definition of fascism by the guy who I guess technically
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invented it, Benito Mussolini, would you even recognize it, at
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least on one side or the other? That's those are questions that
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begin to ask. I have come to believe that
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anybody, and that includes Kamala Harris, remembers what a
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Nazi actually is. And the very fact that you get
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called a Nazi should inform you of the fact that whoever is
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doing so certainly doesn't remember that.
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So where are we going with this today?
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Dave Well, my purpose here is not to necessarily rehash all of
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the atrocities of the Nazis in detail.
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We could spend a lot of time doing that, but that's not
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really my focus. We need to remind ourselves of
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fundamental truths, one of which is you can't really have a
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discussion with a person who will not stipulate those certain
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truths. We all except the idea and I
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left and right, that the Nazis were, as the the show once
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called themselves, the the Nazis were the baddies.
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But do we remember why the Nazis were the baddies?
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I suggest to you today that anyone who uses that phrase is
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one of two things. They're either a complete troll
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who is just trying to get under your skin and if you let them,
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maybe that's more on you than them, or it's someone who has no
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clue, doesn't remember why a Nazi is actually a bad thing.
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Nazism was once seen in this country as not just bad, but
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flat out evil. Yeah, the epitome of evil.
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To call someone a Nazi was you were supposed to punch Nazis in
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the face. You were supposed to do that.
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In 1936, the German national flag, three years, four years
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after the establishment of the Nazi government was still the
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the, the yellow, black and red flag, the traditional flag of
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Germany. And in 1936, that year, a ship,
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the S S Bremen, pulled into New York Harbor, and there some
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union dock workers were mad about the way the Nazis were
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treating Jews and other people. And so these dockyard workers
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stormed the ship, grabbed the Nazi flag, you know, the red
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flag with the swastika on it, and tore.
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Down on Facebook, wouldn't post on my page today.
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Exactly. And threw it into the Hudson
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River. They didn't touch the German
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flag. They tore down the Nazi flag and
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they punched a few Nazis in the face.
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Well, they got arrested, of course, because this is not
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acceptable. The judge who happened to be
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Jewish, who heard their case, let them go, said punching a
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Nazi, punching a real Nazi is not a crime and sent them on
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their way. The German reaction, the Nazi
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government reaction to that was to pass another law that took
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the the traditional German flag and made it quote, a symbol of
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previous Germany. But it turned the swastika into
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the national Ensign at that point so that now it would be an
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act of war to grab that and tear it down and throw it into the
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Hudson River. Well, of course, this, this
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building ideology that the Nazis were putting into place, which
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culminated today, well, culminated as a bad word, but
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reached a a certain apex today in 1938 with the law that
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excluded Jews from the economic Society of Germany.
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You can't even, you can't even have a garden.
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You can't have a business. In other words, you can't grow
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food to eat. You can't buy food to eat.
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You can't sell food to other people to eat.
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These people who are saying to us today that so and so the
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other side this that or the other is a Nazi or a fascist, do
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they have any clue? Do they remember any of that?
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And when they say this person is a Nazi, do they remember the
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fact that Nazis were murdering people?
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Or do they just want to get under your skin a little bit and
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dig because they have no idea what the values, what the
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virtues, what the ideals of that that ideology were, or that our
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ideology countered that? Because if they believed in real
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American ideology, would you ever call someone who wasn't a
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Nazi a Nazi? You wouldn't think.
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So of course not. Do you have one in modern
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political history that you might have gotten by saying he's a
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Nazi? David Duke comes to mind.
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I don't know about that, but in the 1950s it was common to call
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people commies. More Dave does history ahead
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here on Bill Mick Live. So, Dave, we're back to studying
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history, knowing and understanding what Nazis are,
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and we wouldn't be banding it about if we really had the
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understanding. Well, and this is my
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frustration. We, we use this phrase, they're
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a Nazi. You're a Nazi, very carelessly
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and very unremembering of the history that we're supposed to
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remember, which means that since we don't remember it, we are
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condemned to repeat history. If we say that we study history
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to inculcate our society with virtues, values and principles,
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then we need to maintain those virtues, values and principles.
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It's removing that foundation. That was the context of what
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Santa Ana was talking about. He didn't say those who do not
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learn. The past are condemned for to
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repeat it, he said. Those who do not remember it,
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when someone calls me a Nazi, I am actually seeing first hand
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the destruction of history. We are seeing the intentional
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unremembering of the past, if I can borrow a phrase.
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And what is it that motivates that misremembering, that
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unremembering? Well, in the case of Roman
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counterculture, it was to gain political power.
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In the case of Nazi Germany, it was an attempt to prove the
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superiority of a very bad idea. And before we, I don't know,
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point too many fingers at the other side, they're the Nazis.
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We need to take a look in the mirror and ask ourselves whether
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or not we ourselves are not remembering history to our own
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advantage, our own viewpoint, by labeling the other side as what
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we don't like being labeled because we think we remember
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those things. And when we call the other side
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whatever, Nazis, whatever, aren't we doing exactly the same
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thing that we accuse them of doing to us?
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And more importantly, are we not also misremembering history and
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failing to learn those lessons? And if we do that, then Santa
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Anna was right. We are condemned to repeat the
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past. And we pick up your calls when
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we continue in a minute on WMMB. Dave, do you see this far
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differently than using words of war in a political campaign?
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We're going to target Kamala Harris.
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We're going to drop a whatever, you know, and, and, and those
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accusations fly every political season, too.
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They're talking acts of violence.
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Well, that's not what they're talking at all.
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It's metaphor to make a point. So you're seeing this as far
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different from that metaphor. I I see the accusations,
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particularly in terms of Nazism, as far beyond metaphorical.
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I don't believe that someone who calls me a Nazi in in this
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political campaign meant to do so metaphorically.
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I think they have no clue what a Nazi actually is.
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So it's ignorance in large part. Failure to remember.
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Yep, Line one. Hey, Sean, good morning.
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Good morning gentlemen. Dave, good talk and agree to a
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point. You know, inculcation also could
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lead to indoctrination, which is almost synonymous with it.
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And it's all about the matter of the subject and what you just
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said. You know, when you say that I
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was, I, when I talked to Dave in the, in the break there, I
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brought the fact that I've mentioned this for the past
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eight years, that every time they call a Trump supporter or
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somebody on the conservative right a Nazi.
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You look at the riots of 2020 and 2021, everybody else was a
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Nazi. But yet what were they doing
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with their canceled culture, burning down buildings, beating
23:19
people in the streets? They were doing the actions that
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the Nazis did in the 1930s to try to push their political
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agenda now without going so far as to call them a Nazi because
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they have new monikers to call themselves.
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But the fact of the matter is you're, you're absolutely right.
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You're hitting the nail on the head with the fact that most
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people don't even know what a Nazi is anymore, nor they
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studied the history. It's just a term.
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It's kind of like using, dare we say the N word.
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Some people would throw that out there and it's certain things
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like that and and the word fire in a theater when there's no
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fire that you just don't say in public.
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But unfortunately, too many people today just run off at the
23:56
mouth and they and their feelings get hurt and and yet
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they don't take a look in the mirror, as you just said, at
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what they're doing. Willing to, you know, when you
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mention the fact that the Nazis and a lot of people don't know
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this about history, wouldn't allow Jewish people to have
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gardens to even feed themselves. And who in their right mind
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would think that anybody would have the right to let to tell
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somebody else? You can't even grow your own
24:20
food, let alone shop for your own food in our villages.
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You know, things like that. Ask your homeowners association,
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Sean if you put that garden in your front.
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Yard. Exactly.
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And and then then you go going down that route and you look at
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that, it's like who, who truly are behaving as what they're
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trying to call everybody else. So, I mean, you're right, you do
24:41
need to take a look in the mirror and and I don't see
24:44
people on the right calling people on that side not to, but
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it is there have been a lot of us that have been saying, hey,
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look. Oh, we have heard it here, Sean.
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I got to let you go. We got jammed phone lines.
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I want to get to as many as we can on this day.
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But we we do hear it here regularly.
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And again, David goes back to the definition of Nazis and the
25:02
things, the atrocities that they committed, not just economically
25:06
and socially, but when it comes to downright murder and and
25:10
genocide of people, it's what it is.
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It comes back to our failure as a society to remember those
25:19
values, those lessons, to remember the sacrifice that it
25:22
took to defeat that ideology and to simply use that as an epithet
25:30
for a political opponent without ever considering what it
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actually means. Yep, that's true.
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Phone lines jammed yet again. Line 2, you're on Bill.
25:38
Mick live. Good morning.
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Hey, good morning. It's Keith and Palmdale.
25:42
Yeah, Keith. Guys.
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Mom, I'd tell you her her full name, but I don't use her maiden
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name. That's all right.
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Ermagard. Ermgard, he's born in 192027 by
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the Polish German border, and my dad did all five years of the
26:03
occupation there and they didn't talk much about, you know, the
26:08
horrors of war and stuff. But there was little stuff like
26:11
when the Nazis would come up to the farm and stuff that they'd
26:16
hide the girls. They ended up confiscating his
26:23
BSA. Nice.
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That was my grandfather's dream. You know, is a BSA motorcycle
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with a sidecar. You know, I blew up I think one
26:36
time I built a show because people were calling other people
26:39
not using it. So it's just the human thing.
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And the biggest thing goes right to education and not being not
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passing these stories down to our younger generation.
26:50
Yeah, I think that's an important point.
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Keith got to move on line three. You're up on Bill Mick live.
26:57
Hi, Bill, it's Keith of Altaria. I have a question for Dave.
27:00
Go. Was the Nazi Party originally
27:03
called the National Socialist Democratic Workers Party or just
27:07
the National Socialist Workers Party?
27:11
I don't have it in front of me. I don't remember, but all of
27:14
those phraseologies are in there.
27:18
Go ahead. Well, the reason reading it's
27:22
been a long time. I'd have to dig out some really
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old period books that I that I have that the Nazi party was
27:29
actually Democrat. The National Democratic
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Socialist Workers Party and Wikipedia and Google have
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removed the word Democrat from from the phraseology.
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I found that and the other thing that bothers me a lot when you
27:43
try and look it up, it considers the Nazi party a far right
27:47
party, which is, I mean, such a misnomer.
27:50
It's far, far right compared to the extreme left that Europe was
27:55
going through at the time. But it's not what anyone in
27:57
America would consider right wing at all.
27:59
Let. Me get that?
28:00
It actually is the the far right issue comes from the nationalism
28:05
part of that. And keep in mind that the Nazi
28:08
party was not founded by Adolf Hitler.
28:10
The Nazi Party existed before that.
28:13
After he joined the Nazi Party and through a long series of
28:18
manipulations and events became its leader, it certainly changed
28:22
its character, if not its remit. Got to make your points quick
28:29
because we're running out of time.
28:30
Phone lines are jammed line for your next on Bill make live.
28:33
Good morning. Morning, Bill, Eric and Brevard
28:37
question for you to use. So the first is that the have
28:45
you read the book by Eric Metaxas and how familiar are you
28:50
with the story of Bonhoeffer? It seems like it made a lot of
28:54
headway and culture. And then secondly, Bill or there
28:59
is a movie coming out speaking to the culture.
29:03
You know, there's a really good way coming out on November 22nd,
29:08
movie titled Bon Hoffer. Would you think about maybe
29:11
doing an event at the movies like you had done before for
29:15
that? Yeah, do me a favour, Eric, drop
29:17
me an e-mail and and remind me of that Bill,
29:20
mick@iheartmedia.com and we'll check in with the folks at
29:23
premier theaters. If they're carrying it, we can
29:25
try to work something out. We'll see where it goes.
29:27
Dave, any response to him before we move on?
29:29
Night I have Bon Hoffer's book on my desk.
29:33
My my very good friend Mike, the milsurp writer, is very heavily
29:37
into Bon Hoffer and we talk about him a lot.
29:40
Very good Line 5. Good morning.
29:42
You're on Bill Make Live. Good morning.
29:44
I'm Mario Cayton. Avril The As far as I can tell,
29:49
the communists and the Nazis are pretty much the the equal in
29:52
terms of evil. In fact, the Communists
29:54
actually. Murdered.
29:55
Probably 10 times more people than the Nazis murdered.
29:58
And if you go back to the 1940s and 50s and 60s.
30:01
Dictionaries, early 60s. You'll find that communism and
30:05
Nazism are described as almost identical because they change
30:08
that over you know, you know, over over the.
30:10
Years so that. So that they're very much
30:12
different, but actually they're very much the same.
30:15
Dave, any thoughts there? Yeah, they're very much not.
30:19
They Communism and the Bolshevikism Communism that and
30:23
the Nazism considered themselves to be mortal enemies, hence
30:28
Hitler's invasion of of Russia. There are some fundamental
30:31
differences in the way that they see things.
30:33
Nazism, fascism certainly believes in private ownership
30:38
and government partnership, whereas communism doesn't
30:42
believe in that. You have some different world
30:44
goals, you have some different national ideologies.
30:47
We don't have time to go through all that stuff.
30:49
But but I would reject the idea that they're the same evil.
30:53
Yes, they're both evil. Functionally the same.
30:57
Yeah. I'm not going to go.
30:59
There, Line 2, you're up. Good morning.
31:01
We're on the bills, Chris, The Merritt Island.
31:03
How are we doing? We're good, Chris, make it
31:04
quick. We're about out of time.
31:06
Yeah, I'm just going to say I don't think the word Nazi
31:09
carries any weight anymore. It's been tossed around so much,
31:13
just like the left uses, you know, you're racist, sexist,
31:16
homophobe, whatever. They've used it so much that the
31:19
word is watered down now. And I don't think she carries
31:22
any weight because I don't think people are buying that like they
31:26
may have in the. Past.
31:28
So Nazis are owning it with their own version of rap music
31:31
or something. Maybe.
31:32
I don't know, Dave. We'll give you the closing
31:34
thoughts here. And yet, last Friday's show
31:35
would indicate to me that that's the opposite.
31:39
It comes down to this simple idea.
31:41
Before you call someone a Nazi, Trump, Harris, whoever, you
31:46
better start asking yourself some questions and start
31:48
remembering history. And that very simply is unless
31:52
that person or those people took a bunch of people and marched
31:55
them out onto a frozen river in the dead of winter and then
31:59
shelled that river so that they would die in it, they're not
32:03
really Nazis then. That's the problem.
32:06
We have not remembered what Nazis really were.
32:10
And that's why we throw that thing out there.
32:12
And that's why Santiana was correct.
32:14
We're condemned to repeat it because we don't remember it.
32:19
Richmond Transmission and Auto Service brought you the hour.
32:21
Links to Dave Does History Today's show page at billmc.com.
32:25
Nazi German baby ravers. Dave Bowman, thank you.
32:28
We'll see you next week. See you then.
32:32
Check out more stories from history@davedoeshistory.org.