Latest / Reeling It In with Collin Bass / 034 - The Meaning of Suffering w/ Tyler Ward: A Catholic Approach to Healing
Transcript
- Tyler L. Ward: I'm good, man. I'm good. Collin Bass: Let's roll. All right. Five, four, three, two, one. Welcome back to Runalinda then. This is your host, Colin Bass, and I am so excited for this podcast. We finally have a very consistent new year here at the podcast. This is the, I guess the third one this year, which is awesome. But also we have such an exciting guest. I guess that the new Instagram ventures have led me to another connection, which is just so much fun. And I had the chance to guest on his podcast, learn about him more recently. And so I cannot wait to bring to the show, Mr. Tyler Ward, welcome to the show, my friend. How's it going? Tyler L. Ward: Dude, I'm doing great. It's a pleasure to be here. Like you mentioned, I had you on my show and I'm so happy that we were able to meet and we're talking a little bit off camera and I'm typically the one interviewing people. So I'm excited to be on the other chair this time. So I'm excited. Collin Bass: Yes, yes, finally in the other chair. man, I am just so pumped to have you here and to just hear your story and just see where the Lord takes us this afternoon. I felt very Tyler L. Ward: Absolutely. Collin Bass: similarly stepping into your podcast. Like I'm never the one being interviewed. So I know how it feels to be in your seat right now and to be like, crap, where are the questions going to take me right now? But yeah, just to start, like tell us where Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: you're at right now in this season of your life. What are you doing? What are you up to? And then we can rewind here in a minute about your past and where you've come from. But yeah, just catch the audience up. What are up to right now? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: What are you studying? Yeah, what do do day to day? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, great question. Well, I would start off by saying that first and foremost, I'm a Catholic and that's where the majority of my identity or all my identity comes from rather. And that inspires the rest of my endeavors. And right now I'm primarily a student. I'm a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling. So that's on the track to getting licensure as a mental health clinician or what they call them in Texas as a LPC, which is a licensed professional counselor. possibly going deeper into that field later on, but I have some time to decide on that. And for some hobbies and things of that nature, I run a podcast, like we mentioned, and do some evangelization online, which was inspired by some previous endeavors that I engaged in in college. And I'm also an endurance athlete. So I like to run marathons. This year I'm running an ultra coming in April. So it's going be about a 50-miler. And then I'm going to be running Chicago in October. And I'll be running that for a Catholic charity, because I'm not going to be qualifying for Chicago anytime soon. So I decided to run for a charity. It's a good cause and I'm excited for that as well. So a little bit of running fitness, the podcast, and then the first and before those things. Collin Bass: Dude, there we go. I could have gave you an intro, but there we go. There's our intro. That's where we're going to go with this conversation. Tyler L. Ward: Hahaha Collin Bass: And I'm so excited to hear about each of those little pieces of your life and how they all tie into who you are and what it means to live out your faith sort of in the workplace and the work that you do every single day. But I'm curious, let's like zoom out, take us back to high school Tyler and you're about to graduate. What were you up to? Is this where you thought you were going to be five, six, seven years later? And what were your aspirations as you stepped into the real world for the first time? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, that's a good question. First of all, I kind of laugh at the idea of being put in the real world still, because being a student, there's still lot of my life that's dictated. Collin Bass: Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: But whether or not I saw myself where I'm at right now, to a degree, I've always been kind of what some people call an over-thinker. I don't really necessarily love the term, but I've always kind of planned out a lot. When I was in high school, I knew I was going to go probably do something in the health realm. Part of me was leaning towards, towards doctor. And in fact, I even started pre-med. And I knew I wanted to continue playing baseball in college, which I ultimately was able to do. I knew I probably wasn't going to play past college. And, but because I fitness was such a big thing for me, I was pretty sure that I was going to take on some other form of fitness. I never thought I'd be running. I always hated running. So that's a little bit of surprise. I thought I would be more of a gym bro and lifting all the time, which I still enjoy. I do that probably about six days a week still, but it looks much differently than it used to. But as far as the psychology stuff, that's been pretty set in stone for quite some time, although it's taken on different forms. I've bounced between psychiatrist, clinical psychologist, clinical mental health counselor, tried to do all that. But I've definitely been blessed with some opportunities that I did not expect. So going into college, that's when my faith probably like really had a jumping off point when I joined the Catholic Student Association. And we can maybe get a little bit more into that and how that came about. But that really started all this. So when I graduated, I knew I wanted to continue doing ministry in some form. So I didn't think I'd be doing this in terms of the evangelization online. And that's probably been the biggest thing that's surprised me and I've loved it. It's been great Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah, well, I'm so curious. I mean, it's really cool the Lord caught you in the midst of your story because it's to be a psychologist in the world is a very different practice than it would be to be a Catholic psychologist, which is really cool at all at the same time. So I'm curious, like what was even before you said that the CSA, the Catholic Student Association sort of captured your attention and changed your path a little bit. Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: What was so captivating to you about psychology in general before you even knew what you wanted to do? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. that's, that's a good question. There's, there's so many things and I've done a lot of assignments. One of the preliminary things that you do when you go into a counseling field is you first analyze yourself. So you do all these assignments, trying to figure out why am I here? Am I here for the right reasons? Is this the career path that is, more I'm supposed to be in rather. I think very early on I started getting obsessed with kind of self-work in a way and optimizing my own mental performance. The athletic background was huge in that. And then of course there's been some difficulties, know, like family difficulties. Everyone has those. My mother had gone through cancer two times and I just wanted to like figure out like all the things there and that was a hard time for me, it's hard time for the family. And a lot of those things, but I could probably point it down to one moment in my life where I kind of came to realize I wanted to do psychology. And, um, and when I say psychology, I mean just a mental health field in general, because it's been Collin Bass: Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: differentiated over time. And that was when I realized the importance of burdens and suffering. So in high school and with all of these endeavors that I kind of mentioned many more, I haven't mentioned, I realized that the importance of the importance of suffering rather. And I knew that I had goals and I started to view goals as kind of the, let me, let me phrase it this way. And, and counseling, there's this thing called the miracle question, which is when a counselor poses to the client, if you were to wake up tomorrow and you're, you could pick how your life would look like and all the things would be fixed. What would it look like? And it gives somebody an aim to start working towards that direction. So in many ways, goals are this idea of your, your personal utopia. But I knew that you couldn't get there without burdens. But I also knew that I wanted to get to that utopia. I wanted to get to those goals. And because of that, I didn't want to stop growing at the goals because I was like, once I accomplish that, I'm to be my utopia. So what's one way I can always have burdens while also accomplishing goals. Now that was kind of naive thought at the time, because your goalposts are always moving and you're always going have your own personal burdens. But my Collin Bass: Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: initial reaction was, What if I help other people bear their burdens and as a consequence become the Simon of Cyrene for other people as they're bearing their cross? So that was kind of my jumping off point of like, maybe I should do something psychology related because if I know that carrying a cross is beneficial for me and I know that goals that I want to achieve and trust in myself to achieve and trust in God to get me there are the absence of those burdens. How do I continue having those burdens? And that is helping others bear theirs. And that's kind of why I started going into the mental health space, which at that point was not differentiated between psychiatry, psychology, or mental health counseling. Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah, dang. Well, how cool is that? Like not only painting a picture of Simon and Cyrene stepping into the Holy Week and carrying the cross with Jesus, that's Simon, right? That's the Simon of Cyrene. Just Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: making sure I got the right Saint there. But how cool to paint that picture and then also to carry that with you as you begin to bear your own burdens. And I love the Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: analogy of tying that to our goals because at the end of the day, like there is going to be so much hardship in our own life. There's going to be death. There's going to be just down times in the economy. There's going to be times where we feel so low and Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: everything in our world is falling apart. But there's also going to be times that maybe don't feel like that, but are still avenues for growth. Or maybe at the exact same time that are avenues for growth outside of the burdens that we're already bearing, that we Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: can help level ourselves up to the next level. So I'm curious, like whenever you painted your miracle picture for yourself, as you kind of did all these assessments. Tyler L. Ward: you Collin Bass: What did that look like? that after you captured your faith and you started going in that direction or was that sort of around the same time? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, I think it's important to realize that the miracle question is it can change. Collin Bass: Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: And, you know, a lot of our topics of today, feel like I'm in a place, it's one of those faith as in many of those many things is when you build a connection with it, you learn more. But as you learn more, you realize there's so much you still don't know. So in a lot of these things, I feel like I'm at a better point than where I once was. I still try to be nice to my younger self and go, I was still probably leaps and bounds beyond where many people are at that point. But I reflect on and go, man, my miracle questions, my goals, they were completely out of line. So back then, my utopia, my goals, my aim, they were definitely not in line with probably the highest aim or the soma bonum, which is the greatest good, the highest good. They were definitely pride-filled. Not that financial goals are by any means like terrible, but they're, they were not necessarily in line with the divine logos. were not, you know, fitness goals. They were very vain. They weren't for, you know, redemptive suffering, which I'm sure we'll get into. and everything was just kind of about me, me, me. it was important though, to realize that the goals were a cure or were a coping mechanism to the burdens. that's, that was the main thing that I realized, Hey, burdens are a way to get to a goal. But I'm not saying that at that time my goals were in any way what they should have been. I just realized that burdens were the thing that got you to the goal. Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah, my gosh, I love that. love, yeah, you're just painting that picture of redemptive suffering and you're beginning to learn about in your college experience the importance of bearing those burdens. And then it seems like all at the same time, you were then like bringing your faith into your perspective of your psychology and also where you may want to go with your future. So paint that picture for us too. So you stepped into college, you began to be involved in the Catholic Student Association. What about your experience Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: like led you to where you are today? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, well, starting with the CSA, you'll have to forgive me. wasn't expecting to get into this and I'm trying to think about what's necessarily relevant. I'm gonna joke with you. I'm kind of a bit of a talker and your podcast Collin Bass: No. Tyler L. Ward: is reeling it in, so I'm trying to reel it in for you. But yeah, when I first got to campus, there was a few things that probably really got me into my faith. And I'll probably narrow that down to two. I think it's important to realize also in high school, there was a period when I was about in sixth or seventh grade where I had one of my best friends who was a Protestant Christian, and he really started attacking me when he found out I was Catholic. And that really kind of sparked a lot of me getting into like apologetics. I was young, so I probably didn't do it the right way. I was very like attacking and tried to take, you know, it was not the best, but. When I got to campus, I already had some good understanding of the Catholic faith. knew I wanted to, you one thing that was not negotiable was I knew I was going to go to Mass. That was just one thing that if someone's listening to this and they're going to college, that is by far the biggest thing that I'll tell them is make sure wherever you go to college, find your local parish and go to Mass. That is leaps and bounds. The most important thing you can do never get away from the Mass. But I got blessed. I had a Evolutionary biology teacher out of all the subjects in that you'd ever think that to find someone of faith evolutionary biology and Her my professor's name was dr. Kim Snipes. She she passed away in the middle of the semester. So may God grant her a great eternal rest in heaven. She was a great lady but She was going through cancer. She was blind, but she was probably one of my best professors ever. She wrote her own textbook and she knew it like the back of her hand. She would tell us when to flip the page without even looking at it. She knew it was on the screen. She was just a great lady. And in the beginning of the textbook, which she wrote herself, she talked about how faith and science don't contradict one another. And she quoted Michelangelo and scripture in the first little part of her book. And I fell in love with that class almost immediately. And I fell in love with that professor. She was just like, I was like, I'm going to learn everything you have to offer. And she was the professor sponsor of the Catholic Student Association. So I feel incredibly blessed to be put in that room because I probably would not found out about the CSA if it wasn't for her. So she recommended I go join the organization and I did. And that just really got me involved in that organization. I wanted everything to do with it at that point. Around that same time, a similar experience that happened in high school happened in college. Everyone meets their best friend, I feel like, in the second week of college. I met Collin Bass: you Tyler L. Ward: one of my best friends, still a great friend today, probably in the second week of college. And there was a little time when we knew each other where we were little bit butting heads. And it was about Protestant Catholic discourse. And I tell everybody that's Catholic, if you want to get deeper in your faith, have a Protestant friend because I remember this time like it was yesterday. It was a little hurtful at the time. Now I can look back and joke about it, but we had come back from our respective services and me trying to be charitable. I'd asked them, I'm like, how's your service? Something like that. They would return the favor Collin Bass: Hahaha Tyler L. Ward: and ask me about my mass. But I remember one time they came back and I was like, how's your service guys? And they're like, it was good. And they started laughing. And the laughing is what got me, because I was like, what's so funny? And they're like, well, you wouldn't have liked it. They didn't tell me what their service was about, but know, big mega churches, they tend to record their sermons. So I went online and I watched it. And this entire sermon was the pastor talking about how Catholics were going to hell. And that kind of started a conflict between me and my buddy. And because of that, you know, I really got even deeper into apologetics. And then I got even deeper into the CSA and I became like the board theologian for the CSA, the social media manager. I just got totally into it because I was like, we're going to, we're going to stop all these misconceptions about the Catholic faith. And that's how I really kind of got into it. And I very much had a, the reason I bring all this up is because I, to paint the picture for me, at least I very much had a Thomistic exploration of the faith. It very much started in the head and then moved to the heart. I remember probably about sophomore year, I was still very much intellectually in the faith, but not living the faith in my heart the best I could have. And I had a great friend of mine ask me, when did you become so faithful? In that moment, I was like, man, I'm not, I'm not. I know things, but I don't feel as though I'm actually living that out. And that was a very big clicking moment for me. And that's when I realized I needed to start reorienting everything I was doing. And around that same time was the time I was shadowing doctors thinking I was going to go into psychiatry. And when I was shadowing them, looked at, I looked at their ring finger every single time I walked in there and they either didn't have a ring on their hand and they were not even thinking about getting married because there's no time of the day you're working 85 hour weeks or they did have a ring on their hand. I asked them about their family and they're like, I woke up before my kids and I'm going to bed. I'm going to get home when my kids are in bed and I can see their kids. And I was like, more power to you. That is someone's profession. That's someone's call. I love doctors. I love what they're doing. That's not my call. And I started shifting all my aims and all my desires in that moment. So that was kind of a little bit in a nutshell, kind of how I got there. Collin Bass: Yeah, dang, dang. I think that's, Tyler L. Ward: Little bit of a ramble, but... Collin Bass: no, no, no, no rambling at all. That was fantastic. And I think it gives you a lot of perspective, not only to your background of faith and how you want to live it out and kind of your perspective on it. Cause I feel like I am a very similar place. I wouldn't say I was as much intellectually converted. Like I was never into the super deep weeds and I don't know all the saints. don't know all of these things. But I would say that it was those kind of conversations to rationalize with Protestants from, I went to Baylor, so with those Protestants at Baylor and all their perspectives, it was cool that I think that I really respect about them is that they have an outspoken opinion and that you Tyler L. Ward: yeah. Collin Bass: have to respect it. And a lot of the time it led to very many conversations and at some point it's just a handshake truce because they're not gonna give up and then. you're probably not gonna give up either, but it allows you to grow so much because if someone wasn't asking me those questions, then I probably wouldn't have even like had to think about them. I grew up in the faith as well and I totally get that where, you you have these questions about Mary, but it's okay. I've always done this. It really doesn't affect me too much if I fully understand it, but Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: to then fully understand it, it opens up your entire perspective on how to live it out and how important it actually is. Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: Absolutely. No, you mentioned a good point growing up in the faith too. I mean, there's some normalcy to the things that we do that we don't put into question. And it oftentimes takes people kind of interrogating us in a way for us to think about those things. But the beauty of it is, is we shouldn't fear those questions because with like our true faith and knowing that the church is the fullness of the truth, there's an answer out there. you know, there's... I mean, I can't think of the curve, it's a curve that's pretty popular in psychology. Someone listening probably knows of it. I think you might learn this like Psych 101, but it's this curve where you're the, like the more you learn, the more you realize that like, the more your evaluation of yourself is lower. So like people that are at the bottom of the bell curve that don't know much are like, oh, I'm the best at this. So everyone thinks they're above average until like they become really skilled and they're like, a little bit more scrutinizing of themselves. Collin Bass: you Tyler L. Ward: So like the faith is the same way. When you're like learning a little bit about the faith, you're like, this seems weird. This is, wait, we have parts of dead saints and that church and that church or why do we pray to Mary? But then you dig a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper. And then you realize you have nothing to fear when people come up with these questions because the church has answers to it all. It's one of the beauties of Collin Bass: Yes, Tyler L. Ward: Catholicism. Collin Bass: yes, I love that. And it sounds like that truth has driven you all the way into like your own mental health counseling and your own vision in that. So Tyler L. Ward: . Collin Bass: I mean, like, let's dive fully into that. I would love to hear. So you're stepping out of school. Are you still in school? Tell me like where you're at. And then also like as you dream about being your own counselor and your own practice, what that kind of looks like to bring the two together. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, that's a good question. I am still in school. I actually have a lot of school left ahead of me. Collin Bass: Yeah Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, mental health counseling is one of the largest, longest of masters that you can get. And then if I decide to go do a PhD, it's even more time. So I'm still in school. I'm in my first year of clinical mental health counseling graduate of a three year program and that's full time. So it's a three year master's full time, a lot of supervision and I'm in school right now. So your question was regarding where I'm at right now and then what it looks like to. Collin Bass: Yeah, as you kind of go through school, what you hope for your future, because I'm curious, Tyler L. Ward: Yes. Collin Bass: it's crazy to know that you're in the longest master's program and likely going to be in one of the longer PhD programs. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: What is making it worth it to go through all of this? What is your end goal with it all? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, that's a good question. I guess I'll put it this way. The parallels between the faith and psychology are almost glaring to me that... I think this happens when people discern properly, which we can maybe get into. Whenever you find what God's calling you to do, it's very glaringly obvious. So when I'm learning about these things and I see the parallels with the faith... I think what drives me is that like, that makes sense. That's in line with this thing that I know about the faith. And it's not necessarily that psychology and the faith are or can be integrated. It's that our faith, the Catholic faith, it's the fullness of the truth and psychology is part of the truth. So part of the truth fits within the fullness of the truth. Now there's definitely some bad actors and things like that and some studies that haven't been replicated. And I'm not saying everything produced out of psychology is true. But there's this idea that has been reiterated in a lot of the councils that faith is not something that is antithetical to rationality, but rather it's beyond rationality. It's super rational. It's not explaining something that science has yet to explain. but it's explaining something that science simply cannot explain. And when I'm learning about psychology, it's giving a lot of these foundational things that are making those things easier to grasp for me. So whenever I'm in class, I'm learning about this and I go, people work that way. That makes sense. I've seen that in the faith or, that might help somebody or that's something we do in the faith that I've seen benefit people. So there's some psychological truth to the things that we're doing beyond just the spiritual truth. I think Confession is one of those those things that I see a very big parallel between Psychology and the spiritual truth of it as well. We know as Catholics when you go to confession something spiritually true is happening But there's also plenty of their therapies out there that require you to in some way repent to admit your wrongdoing and then to throw a ceremony in a way of You getting rid of that past self or that past conceptualization of yourself, and then they send you on your way to do a form of penance. And it requires your actual action. So a lot of therapy actually happens outside of the room. So when I'm learning this in class, go, that's what Collin Bass: day. Tyler L. Ward: happened during confession too. So these glaring things to me is what keeps me going. And I think what I hope to do long-term is continue following. where God tells me to go with these things. And I don't know exactly where that's going to look like. Again, I have a long road ahead. I do think private practice is something I want to do, but that's who knows. I will say this. One thing I want to do, and I always bring up my Mary Medallions. I wear this everywhere. My mom gave this to me before I went to college. And it's stayed perpetually around my neck throughout my entire time at university up till now. And I reflect on how, if this is shinier, the light will reflect off of it more. Me too, if I'm more cleansed, if I'm more living like Christ, if I'm cleaner slate, Christ's light will shine off of me more. I don't have to bring religion into the therapy practice. In fact, you're not allowed to unless you're advertising yourself as a Catholic based therapist. I don't have to be, you know, like some people do, I don't have to be kind of like shoving the faith in your face. But what I can do is I can live out the faith properly. in my vocation Collin Bass: Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: as, you know, a mental health counselor and cause people to, to make change for the better. I one of the important things about counseling specifically is that it is a, takes a different scope than a lot of the other mental health fields. A lot of the other mental health fields are kind of medical model based where they're trying to change the individual. Whereas in counseling, it's more based on mental hygiene. So it's kind of massaging the person. So they're making these like subtle changes that are like going to make magnificent impacts into their life. And I think sometimes we underestimate that. feel like that's a close, that's more closely in line with how our faith is, you know, it's massaging Collin Bass: Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: us into the faith rather than just like, one day some miracle is going to happen to me. I think a lot of people are always expecting a miracle to happen. They're expecting something like that. Whereas counseling is more of that massaging. I think that's more of the faith. Like, going and doing the rituals, going to mass, going to adoration, and those get you deeper and deeper and deeper until one day you're a completely different person. Collin Bass: Yeah, dang, you made two different kind of claims there. The first one was like the idea that our faith is so deeply ingrained into our soul, into our purpose, and that it almost supersedes psychology. And that as you begin to study, you begin to realize, holy crap, like, yes, psychology is having major breakthroughs. Yes, there are these things that we do to heal ourselves. But so much of the time, they actually overlay with the things that we're actually already called to do. And in a Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: life that's well-ordered in the faith, like psychology is backing it up, saying like, hey, these things actually are so good and true and beautiful for you to do. And I think that's Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: so cool because it probably just gets you so fired up when you have those aha moments of like, this Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: is so cool that the Lord isn't joking whenever he calls us to do these things and these rituals that we may even confession, like the example that you used, we may underestimate the true power of it. especially in our deepest, darkest sins that we don't feel like letting out into the light. But when you go to therapy, likely the same thing's going to happen except for being absolved by the priest through the power of Christ. like just how cool is that to be able to be studying that and then bring that to more people. And then go ahead. Tyler L. Ward: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think on that point, I think There was one point where I thought they were at odds. So I do want to mention that. And Collin Bass: Yeah, bring it. Tyler L. Ward: it wasn't that I thought they were contrary to one another, but I thought, what's the purpose of psychology if faith has all the answers? I was at that point for a little while. And that's when I had to realize what science really was. And science is not necessarily adding these building blocks to create an understanding, but almost all science is discovery. So the truths are already there and the purpose of the sciences are to uncover those truths. And God has given us, you know, rationality and the mental faculties to go and do that. So there's nothing wrong with trying to figure out how those systems work so that we can optimize those and heal more people. Collin Bass: That is cool. That is so cool. And I think that even gives you just a different perspective into the faith life of like, hey, like these truths are there, but also it's our job to kind of discover what they mean for us in our own life. And that's honestly the job of the scientists and the psychologist is finding out like, how do these actually apply into the real world and how can we bring them in? And the second part was that you were talking about just a second ago was that psychology ultimately will make you more human. And the truth that you're leading people to make you more human. And I think that's a really cool parallel to the faith because like the example you use, the more you live out your faith and the cleaner life that you live, the more you kind of tidy up your area and your sin and the better life you live to glorify Christ, the more people then realize, wow, like this is actually so impactful. It can actually impact the lives that I'm surrounded by. And I think that is so cool that you're seeing that in your own profession and that living out your own profession well, will not only impact the souls in and around the practice that you have, but also will likely have those souls lead more souls to the ultimate truth, which is just so cool. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, absolutely. There's this theory called the ecological system theory. So it's this idea that we exist inside of this ecological system. And there's different levels of this system, but at the center of it is the individual. And a lot of times in the counseling field, we talk about how all those outer systems affect the individual. And I think that's important to realize, but I think in modernity, we focus on that too much. And we don't focus on the fact that the center also affects the outer circles as well. You can go and affect those outer circles of your ecological system just as much as it can affect you. And I think if you become that cleaner slate, you can make the world better. And that's really what we get into the therapy that I have come to enjoy and research mainly, which is existentialism or logo therapy. It's this idea of finding meaning. Of course, as a Catholic, I find meaning or logos in the divine logos, which is what we use for the word for God in the Greek New Testament. But I think sometimes we need to realize that the person can also change the systems that it exists in and not just the other way around. Collin Bass: Yes, yes, I love it. Hello. Now that you open the door, tell us about your research. Tell us about like what you've been fascinated by recently and the things that you're learning and also maybe the things that you still have to learn a little bit about as well. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, I have a lot to learn. One thing I'll say is that I'm speaking purely as someone of faith and that happens to be a student. I'm not speaking with any authority as a counselor. I'm not a counselor yet or anything of that regard. So I still have so much to learn when it comes to the science of counseling specifically. And I will always have so much to learn when it comes to the faith as well. So these are mainly personal opinions. But in regards to what I'm doing, right now in regards to research and what fascinates me. I had to kind of pick a foundational theory at the beginning of my coursework and we're allowed to change that. One of the theories that I enjoyed the most was something called existentialism. And there's definitely a lot of parallels with the faith, but there's also some differences as well. One of the main ones being that... So existentialism was made by a Jewish psychiatrist by the name of Victor Frankel. He wrote a book that probably many people have read called Man's Search for Meaning. And he developed his theory during a concentration camp that he survived. He discovered that those who survived the concentration camp had a meaning or a why to survive it. So he quoted Frederick Nietzsche, which I might butcher this, but Frederick Nietzsche goes and says, a man with a proper why can survive anyhow. ⁓ So he developed this theory and he called it logotherapy with a lowercase L. Logos in Greek means meaning. ⁓ As a Catholic this stood out to me because I can survive anyhow with my meaning which is the capital L, ⁓ logos. So the divine meaning, the highest meaning. So logotherapy or existentialism is what's really fascinated me the most along with some other forms of therapy. But in regards to research, a lot of the research I plan on doing and have attempted to start to do, but nothing has been finalized, is in regards to primarily religious based counseling and counseling for athletes. So that's what I'm starting off with, but I have two more years of this and I plan on doing a lot of research. God willing, it all pans out. Research is a sticky business. I've done research in my undergrad. was fortunate enough to do that. And I realized how difficult that was. And I did social psychology research and neuroscience research. So I'm speaking a little prematurely with where I'm at in the process of my research right now, but that's currently what I'm working on. Collin Bass: Dude, I love that. I love that. I think it's so cool that as you're beginning to learning, learning about it all, you're also sharing it. And I love that you not only want to bring it to the faith world, but also the athletic world. Tyler L. Ward: Right. Collin Bass: And I'm curious, why is that something that you're so passionate about and that you think ties so deeply back into these, psychological themes? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, you know, I, my faith has been what has influenced all my other actions. That's almost like the, the, the trunk or the roots of my metaphorical tree. But while that's been the teacher, I think God has used so many branches or tools to help me understand those teachings. And athletics has definitely been one of those things for me. I'll give you an example. Whenever I was playing baseball, I think the freest I ever played the game was when I finally got recruited. It was my senior year of high school and I finally got recruited to play college ball. And I was not in the best shape of my life. I just came back from an injury. Throwing was probably the most difficult task for me ever. I still had so much pain when I was throwing. And yet I was playing better than I ever had because I was free. and because I was recruited by somebody. In that moment, I realized that God has also recruited each and every one of us to be disciplined in our faith, to suffer in our faith, just the same way I was doing for baseball. And I can play free in this game of life because God's recruited me for a purpose. And as soon as you kind of have that or that meaning, going back to existentialism or logo therapy, soon as you have that, discipline doesn't become a test of your own resilience anymore, but it becomes a trellis, which a trellis is this thing, and I got this from the book called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. I bet you've probably read this before, but a trellis is what holds up a vine because vines don't grow well on grounds. And Jesus calls himself the true vine. We know Jesus is the true vine. And his trellis is his way of life. So discipline and suffering is the trellis in which we imitate Jesus' life. That's his way of living. And as soon as you have that concept of God's recruited you to do something. He has a plan for you. Your discipline and your suffering have now become a trellis to live like him. So that was one of those moments where I was like, yeah, sports has one of those branches that God has teaching me through. And psychology has been this other branch that we kind of went off in. And it's almost like the branches are intertangling. So they all go back to the trunk, but they're intertangling with all the branches. So there's both two different tools that I just kind of want to mesh together in some way. Collin Bass: to you being recruited and then then you have the most freedom you've ever had to play the game better than you ever had before. And there's a story similar to that here in the Olympics. You probably saw it with one of our figure skaters. She had all this Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, yeah. Collin Bass: pressure pushing down all around her all over her entire life to be so good at figure skating that she was just like. screw it, I'm going to go be a dancer. then Wint Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: to go be a dancer. And then like, on a whim comes back and then wins gold. And it's like, bro, like it Tyler L. Ward: around. Collin Bass: makes so much sense on paper, but exactly what you're saying here, like it is so hard to put into practice because we try to grind so hard through life. We put ourselves, we have our life at our own will. And we're trying to push hard through every single hardship we go through, even our own goals. Like we can do this just by ourselves, but like the freedom of literally just letting go. and allowing God the space just to show up allows us to be not only free and less stressed and allow life to be a little bit easier, but we actually perform a little bit better as well, which I just think is so profound. I love that. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's one of those things that like our faith is, is, um, is practical as well. Like it's, it's, it's radical, but it's also practical. And maybe in the short term, you're like, I don't know why this is happening, but in the longterm, you look back and this is why I suggest people to write down what they've prayed for. So oftentimes we get to a point where we're finally blessed with something and then we realize we're like, we either, we either don't get it. And then we go, God, God hates me. You know, why are you not giving this to me? God, we blame God immediately or we get it. And rather than thanking God, like we blame him, we go, look what I did. That's what I did it. You know? Collin Bass: Yeah! Tyler L. Ward: So absolutely. Our faith is practical. And that's why I suggest people write down their prayers too, because you realize how practical it is at that point. You go, he did. He did hear me. He did bless me. Maybe the answer is not always yes, but you realize why it wasn't. And, Collin Bass: Dude, I love that retrospectively as well. Like there's no reason for us not to go back and to see the way he's answered our prayers. Is there a way kind of in the moment here and now for you to live more freely? Obviously writing those prayers down and allowing the Lord's space to answer them is helpful for the future. But how do you live that practically in the present? Tyler L. Ward: That's a good question. See, my mind sorts through all those different branches I was talking about. Collin Bass: I love it. Tyler L. Ward: Living more freely in the present. No, I think part of the reason I hesitate is because this is something I still struggle with and I hesitate giving people advice. In fact, one of the confusions about my future career is that people come to counselors to hear advice, but we're actually not supposed to give advice. We're supposed to help them arrive to the conclusion. So I would say constantly pray and reflect. And if this is somehow in regards to any intrusive thoughts or anything that is pathological, then yeah, maybe seek out therapy for it. Cause sometimes that's beneficial as well. But with those little principles, would say set principles in place that you know help you find or help you live out more freely. I don't think it's always a switch. I don't think you're going to... I got it now. I'm going to live more freely. You know, when that happened, that story I told you, I didn't play baseball more freely every single game after that. But I had to return back to that reflection when I realized I can play free. And I think people need to figure that out in themselves. Maybe that's through therapy. Maybe that's through praying, whatever it is, find out what your standards are. Find out what your non-negotiable are and return back to them. Collin Bass: Dude, I love it, I love it. And that's such good advice. I'm curious to take the perspective kind of the next level. You mentioned that you read the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry and Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: over and over over again, the book just talks about the anxious generation, like that is us. We have allowed ourselves to be the most stressed and anxious generation of all time. And I'm curious to hear your take on that, not only from the psychological perspective, but also just from a Catholic and even athletic perspective, Tyler L. Ward: Hmm. Collin Bass: how we can wrestle with that in our culture and in our times now. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, anxiety. That's a loaded one. Wrestling with anxiety is hard. So I have to be careful here because pathologically or like assessment based not qualified to tell you necessarily what to do. but what I will say is that Some forms of anxiety, some forms of anxiety from a faith perspective are an indication of a lack of trust in God. And I think if, once again, if I were to take this back to therapy and not from a faith standpoint, let's say I have a client who, and I wouldn't know how I'd handle this, but let's say there's a client who presents with From the existential view, they're likely don't know what their meaning is. which I think that's a cause for a lot of anxiety today is people don't have a meaning or their actions aren't helping them arrive to that meaning. So switch back to the faith, like we just started. I think if you're not trusting God, that means your actions are not in line with your divine meaning. So that's another one of those parallels is you have a meaning or your actions in line with it. And sometimes I think it's the fact that we don't know what our meaning is. I think we're blessed as Catholics to know that our meaning to live out the faith. So I would say that would probably be the best way to combat anxiety. think anxiety crisis right now is a meaning crisis. think so many people don't have meaning in their lives. And there's so many fingers to point because of that. So many fingers. mean, political climate, this attack on masculinity, there's this idea that we're always filled with noise. are listening to music or podcasts. Podcasts are great. We both have one. But they're always listening to something. There's so many fingers you can point to like why people aren't given the time to think of their meaning But all points back to the fact I think people don't have a meaning or they're just filling their life with so much noise that their actions aren't helping them get there From that's from a Collin Bass: Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: psychological perspective and that's from a faith perspective too. The faith perspective just has that added benefit This is where this where existentialism and faith don't match up existentialism doesn't posit any moral certitude And as a counselor, you can't posit any moral certitude, but the faith does The faith does posit a moral certitude. There is a objective truth. And that objective truth is you have to trust God. And anxiety, you're not necessarily trusting God in that moment. Are you not trusting Him because you don't know what your meaning is? So don't know if He's actually listening to you? You don't know if He's there? Or is your anxiety because you're fearful of the consequences of your actions. You know that your actions aren't in line with God. And I think those are two possible situations and that takes the individual to discover what that is for them. Collin Bass: Yeah, dang. And I think you're exactly, you're spot on with that. Recently, I've been getting more into Instagram. And with that, I've been scrolling two, three, four, five times more than I ever have. And it's dangerous. But like Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. yeah. Collin Bass: two weeks ago, I legit had like a mini anxiety attack. And like, I was looking it up and it was purely cognitive overload. And me not having the silence to recognize the thoughts in my own head. And I couldn't even think straight because I was so like, dopamine up and even Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: hours and hours afterwards. And I also was having like no dreams because my mind couldn't rest. And it was just so much was happening that nothing was happening. And I Tyler L. Ward: Yes. Collin Bass: think that's a really interesting point, even just from my own life right now, because we pour in all these outside voices, all this outside noise, podcasts, media, everything. And then we were like, well, like, why can't I figure out what I'm supposed to do with my life? Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: And it's like, well, what if we just slow down and Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: you rest and just sit with yourself for several minutes a day or an hour or several hours a day and not be so overwhelmed with all the things that you're pouring in. And yeah, no, I love your take on this. And I think that it's perfectly time for me, but also for a lot of our listeners. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, I think right there you said it better than I did originally. And what you got to there is that, and what I was trying to get to is that there's so many things that cause anxiety. I was almost hesitant to be like, what's the cause? That's a big loaded question. But I don't think you necessarily need to know the cause. And what you said, I think is the solution, which is slow down, eliminate the noise, and align yourself with the meaning and ultimately the highest meaning, which is Christ. Collin Bass: I love that. I think that's spot on. And I know we're nearing the end. I still want to touch on a couple more parts of your story. I want to dive more into some of your athletic journeys right now and how Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: you parlay those with psychology and also just your own, like capturing those big goals and where it's going to take you next. So yeah, we'd love to dive into where you're at today. I know you're training for some races. You're running a lot. I see that on your story. Tell us about what you're training for, what you're up to. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I said at the beginning, I am training for an ultra right now. It'll be my first ultra, be a 50 miler. And that's exciting. And then I'll be very quickly after that, I'll have a little bit of time to recover and then I'll be training for the Chicago marathon. And for those that listening, I don't know the length of a marathon. That's 26.2 miles. So ultra Collin Bass: Now how long is the Ultra? Tyler L. Ward: is 50. So It's like comparing apples and oranges I've heard. I mean, it's a little different. You're running at a quicker pace on the marathon. So it's not necessarily like, it's half the distance. There's still a different level of like, or different type of suffering that you go through when you run this. So kind of two different approaches to both of those races. But yeah, I'm excited for both of those. Collin Bass: Yeah, I guess I'd to hear your perspective. I'm a runner myself. I love training. I love getting out there. Tell me about your psychological perspective just on training in general and Tyler L. Ward: No. Collin Bass: yeah, why you have those goals in particular for your life at this season. Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm, yeah. So it's funny how you mentioned like my psychological approach to it. I think that it's more of a faith driven approach. Again, not that those things are at odd, but it starts there. And the realizations I get from the faith, I then integrate into my psyche, I would say. And I think this is one of the reasons that I told you earlier that we don't give advice as counselors because like we function off of our own set of parameters. And that might not work for the person sitting in front of me. I got to see what works for them. But for me, I start with faith and my running in all my endeavors, athletically throughout my entire life have always been faith driven. I will say that the more nuanced approach to how it influences my, my running, how my faith and running influence one another. is I don't know. I would say that's the most nuanced answer because I continuously ask that question to people on my podcast because it's one of those things that I think I haven't fully grasped yet. Now, I do think there's some foundational pillars though that I build off of. And that's the reason on my Instagram, I post a watch and a reflection every day. I have something called run reflections. So I post a picture of my running and I post a reflection because I try to glean something from each of those runs. And the approach I take is all based on suffering. So I told you I'm not built to be a runner. I never thought I'd be running. Running is not necessarily fun for me. But it is a way for me to endure a little bit of suffering. And as Catholics, we have this concept called redemptive suffering, where we can offer up our suffering for ourselves, for others, for the souls in purgatory, for a special intention. And that's where I start most of my running at. So before my run, I'll invite God into my run, invite Jesus into my run. I typically go through a series of rote prayers to just kind of get me in the prayer mindset. And the rest of my run is kind of offered up and allows me to free think in the form of prayer and try to hear God's voice. I don't run with any music or anything like that. So that by the end of my run, hopefully I come to a realization of something. And sometimes that realization is I didn't realize much at all. And that's very appropriate for the faith. Not every single time you go to mass, you're to walk out with a giant revelation. But it's the that in that lesson, that lesson's consistency. I got to show up again tomorrow. I stacked another brick. Sometimes I come to find out truly the importance of suffering. It's a grueling workout. I realized that suffering is where we're most connected with Christ and his suffering. And I reflect on the fact that on the cross, had an opened armed embrace. And in my suffering, I go and I'm taken in by that embrace. So each runs a little bit different, but I would say it's heavily influenced by that concept of suffering and specifically redemptive suffering. And then once I come to that conclusion, I then integrate that into my psyche. Collin Bass: Dude, I love that. I love that. I think that running is the most perfect place and image for redemptive suffering because it's the race of life. Like we Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: go through it every single day. You run and you do the watch, the watch reflection almost every single day. And Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: you, you have this workout that is like miles and miles and miles, the finish line is miles and miles and miles away. And Tyler L. Ward: yeah. Collin Bass: you not being a runner and not even coming from running background. Like you said, every single day is a hard place, a hard way to just get started and go. But what a beautiful place to meet Christ. And also the Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: same thing whenever you're waking up in the morning, you don't feel like Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: you want to hit the snooze button like 10 times for Christ to show up right there and say, hey Lord, this is for you. But yeah, go ahead. Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. No, it's, it's, and I think you're getting to a good point with running being specifically, I'm not suggesting everybody run. I'm suggesting someone, everyone do something hard, but running Collin Bass: Yeah. Tyler L. Ward: in specifically for me, it's, done a few things. One, and this is I kind of nerd out a little bit psychologically, there's that repetition there. And I think there's an importance of ritual. You know, it's, it's a step after a step after a step. And it's a ritual to wake up in the morning and go for your run. It's a ritual, the way you laced on your shoes. Baseball was all about rituals, stepping into the box you had a ritual, before the game you had a ritual. And our faith is very ritualized because it puts us into a posture to orient ourselves towards the aim. So when we go to mass, all these rituals are to orient our heart in a posture so that we can accept Christ in the Eucharist. Whenever I'm running, I try to orient myself for both a good run, but also to meet Christ on that run. You know, I, it's probably one of my vices. so to speak, is I like cigars. One of the reasons I like them is because there's a ritualistic behavior that orients the mind to contemplate. And it's one of those times where you can kind of turn off everything and you can think, there's no distractions out there. So I think ritualization is one of those things that there's some psychological truth to it, but there's also some spiritual truth to it. And if you orient yourself to a posture that can accept Christ in that moment, then he's there with an outstretched hand, you just gotta grab it. Collin Bass: I love that. I love that. That is so good. And I think that's an easily overlooked big part of our faith. Like we don't even realize the sign of the cross being a ritual. We don't realize Tyler L. Ward: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: the holy water being a ritual that pulls us into this moment of like helping us focus our attention in for the Lord to show up in our spiritual life, but then also in our own hearts and our souls. And I just love that. And I think as I go to mass probably tomorrow and the rest of this week, I'm going to recognize even more rituals that we don't even recognize are a part. of drawing us into our faith and that it Tyler L. Ward: Yes. Collin Bass: is such a big part of what we do and what we live out, which I just love so much. Tyler L. Ward: Yes. Collin Bass: As we begin to close, I'd love to hear. you're looking at like several more years in school and we hear about the impact that you want to have on the souls and kind of bring the faith into the workplace a little bit, but paint out your next five or six years, your five or 10 years, I guess. Aside from your impact, what do you imagine that to look like and what is that miracle vision as you're into the future? Tyler L. Ward: Yeah, yeah. I'll start off by saying in my field and especially in modernity, I think we've come to realize the influence of all parts of the cultural self other than religion and spirituality. And one of my goals in counseling is to make that more of a focus because I think it's very healing for a lot of people. There's a careful way to go about it. But I hope that my future research and I hope my future time as a clinician can kind of break that barrier for integrating religion and spirituality in counseling. So that is one of my goals down the line. I hope to, I think there's a big focus now on quality and quantity and which one's better. I'm one of those people that just is pretty ambitious. My goal is both quality and quantity. I want to help as many people as much as I can help them that I can. And that's not just a goal for the next 10 years, but that's a goal in my life. I remember one of my mentors and youth minister in the CSA, he said that know, youth ministry, but ministry as a whole is a battle for the salvation of souls. And I hope to win as many of those battles as possible and help bring people to the faith. And if that's through my work, then so be it. If that's through, you know, this podcast or, you know, my social media, then great. But that is one of my big goals right there. And hopefully along the way, you know, if God's calling me towards marriage, marriage, And, you know, maybe that's a family tenure five, I don't know. I don't know. It's so convoluted. Who knows what it's going to look like. But yeah, man, I'm super impressed where you're at. And I love the idea of having a family. So maybe that's in the future somewhere down the road. But yeah, that's so much that can happen. Still in school, still so much school left, but we'll see. Hopefully a lot of Collin Bass: Dude. Tyler L. Ward: cool races, try and do a lot of cool things before my body gives out. So we'll see. Yeah. I I try Collin Bass: Dude, let's go, let's go. We'll see you at the Moab 240 here soon or something crazy like that. That's fantastic. I love it. I love the vision. Tyler L. Ward: not to over plan myself anymore. I was always obsessed with goals. And oh, we didn't get into this so much, but I remember like probably a year ago. at minimum, I was so fed up with, is it priesthood or is it marriage, is it priesthood or is it marriage? And eventually I think that discernment process, even though it didn't like yield too many answers, it yielded one answer, which was just calm down and stop trying to plan everything. So when he asked that question, I don't know, it could look like marriage and who knows when that would happen. It could look like a private practice. It could look like a researcher, a professor, who knows? I'm just going to see where God pulls me and then try to say yes to opportunities. Collin Bass: Dude, I love it. I love it. I think you're spot on just allowing God to show up and see where he takes you next. But I think what's most important is you have your vision and your impact outlined and you know what you want to do and how you want to do it. And I just kind of see the pieces of Tyler L. Ward: Yeah. Collin Bass: the Lord pulls together brick by brick. Tyler L. Ward: Now that goes to the meaning. You need the meaning and then you need to see Collin Bass: Yeah Tyler L. Ward: if your actions are in line with that meaning. So I stopped trying to play on all the actions and just go, okay, what's my meaning? And then when an action presents itself or two opportunities present itself, which action is getting me towards the meaning? And that could look like so many things. There's several charisms and several orders in the church for religious life for a reason. People have different charisms and go to different orders. Some people are laity and some people are living the religious life and some people are conjugate. It's all to serve the higher meaning. So God can pull you in so many different directions. just you need to know where your aim's at first. You can't hit a target that you don't know is there. Collin Bass: Dude, that's so good. That's so good. I love it. Such good advice. And as we begin to wrap up, two questions, quick little questions. You mentioned several saints throughout this conversation. I'm curious, who is the saint that is impacting you the most right now in the season that you're in and why? Tyler L. Ward: man, that's such a good question. Right now? Collin Bass: In the middle of Lent. Tyler L. Ward: Middle of the land, I know. Man. You know, this is the month of St. Joseph and St. Joseph is my confirmation saint. And I would say he's been impactful to me my entire life and specifically now. There's just that meekness about St. Joseph, which meekness comes from a term of how people raised horses. It means obedient to the master. So people kind of confuse meekness with weakness, but to be meek actually means obedient. So... I would say St. Joseph in particular is inspiring me the most right now, especially in the month of St. Joseph and him being my confirmation saint and just trying to be obedient. I think that went back to our discussion earlier when you asked me what my future plans are. like, I don't know, just trying to be obedient. Collin Bass: Dude, I love it. So good, so good, especially them at the St. Joseph. And then finally, as we close, give me, usually if I'm interviewing somebody older, retired, closing their career, I give them the best advice they could have given their younger self. But for Tyler L. Ward: Mmm. Collin Bass: the young bucks like you and I, I'd love to hear your perspective on what is the best advice you can give your future self. Tyler L. Ward: best advice I can give my future self. Yeah. Good question. I would tell myself never to think that you're too far gone to return back to Christ. I think we're destined to have times where we waver in our faith. I think one of the biggest lies that the devil can tell you is that you're too far gone. know, the devil doesn't get you by getting you into sin. He gets you by telling you that your sin is so great that God's not going to forgive you. And I got great advice a long time ago from a priest friend of mine, and he goes, remember how hard you can fall. And I've fallen hard in my life. And that serves as a protection to not falling that hard, you know? So because I know how hard I have fallen, how I will probably fall again, I will tell my future self, never view yourself so far gone that you can't return to Christ. Because knowing where I am now, would, even though I have so much more to do and nowhere near where I want to be, I want to be where I'm at without Christ, without the faith. So I owe all that to God. Collin Bass: Dude, I love that. That is such good advice. And I love your perspective and I love this conversation as well. This has been a ton of fun and I appreciate you taking the time to hop on, hop on your first podcast as a guest and also just be here for all of our listeners. Tyler L. Ward: Absolutely. It was absolute joy. I appreciate it, dude, and I love what you're doing. I just wish you the best, man. I'm just so excited. You live out the faith so well. I just love the joy that you exude. Collin Bass: my goodness. Well, thank you so much, Tyler. This was fantastic and looking forward to seeing this soon on Spotify. Tyler L. Ward: Absolutely,