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Tucker Carlson Got It Wrong | Mondo Gonzales and J.B. Hixson Respond | The Week in Bible Prophecy · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Hello everyone, Mono Gonzalez here in studio, Welcome to the
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  Speaker 2: podcast this week.
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  Speaker 1: I am here with doctor J. B. Hickson. Welcome. JB. Hey, Mondo,
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  Speaker 1: thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 2: And recently here in the past few days. It was
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  Speaker 2: perfect timing for you coming in to do some filming
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  Speaker 2: on some of your other stuff. But Tucker Carlson had
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  Speaker 2: he's been kind of on a certainly anti modern Israel, right.
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  Speaker 2: I wouldn't whether or no, are you calling an anti Semite?
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  Speaker 1: No? I think, like you and I have talked about before,
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  Speaker 1: anti Semitism and anti Zionism are two different things. And
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  Speaker 1: just because someone is against modern Israel doesn't mean they
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  Speaker 1: don't like Jews. Right.
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  Speaker 2: So that's so let's come out of the gate. As
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  Speaker 2: Tucker had this what he was.
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  Speaker 1: Calling a theologian JD.
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  Speaker 2: Hall On discussing basically what is dispensationalism, and of course
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  Speaker 2: it goes through a lot of the things different topics
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  Speaker 2: on there. What is dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, what is Jesus
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  Speaker 2: Christ's role and dispensational and who killed Jesus? The Scholfield Bible,
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  Speaker 2: Zionism taking hold in the West, and on and on
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  Speaker 2: and on. But what we wanted to do was we
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  Speaker 2: wanted to respond because I don't really know much about J. D.
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  Speaker 2: Hall except and I don't need to except we're going
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  Speaker 2: to judge him on his words of what he said,
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  Speaker 2: and so I'm gonna have a lot of quotes today.
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  Speaker 2: Sorry about that as it relates to direct quotes from him.
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  Speaker 2: I'm even going to give some time stamps so that
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  Speaker 2: people can go look and make sure that if they
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  Speaker 2: want to check whether we're quoting him out of context,
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  Speaker 2: which we're going to definitely try not to do so. Again,
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  Speaker 2: Tucker very anti Zionism. Maybe maybe let's let's start there.
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  Speaker 1: What is uh? What is Zionism? Well, I thought you're
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  Speaker 1: gonna start with who is Tucker Carlson? But I do
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  Speaker 1: want to I want to. I'll get to that question
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  Speaker 1: in a second, but let me just say, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I I respect a lot of what Tucker has said
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  Speaker 1: through the years. He's a conservative in that sense, and
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  Speaker 1: so we resonate with what he says. But I've been
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  Speaker 1: really discouraged in recent years with the decision he's made
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  Speaker 1: to really come out against a lot of what we
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  Speaker 1: hold near and dear in terms of our biblical understanding
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  Speaker 1: of God's plan of the ages. But so Zionism, that's
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  Speaker 1: the question.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think this is common and I think
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  Speaker 2: they do, they do bring it up, and in the
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  Speaker 2: sense of it's certainly this is like one of the
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  Speaker 2: worst things that could ever happen is Zionism. And so
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  Speaker 2: let's talk about the distinction, because there's political Zionism and
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  Speaker 2: then there's there's Christian Zionisms. So yeah, and so let's
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  Speaker 2: talk about first of all, let's talk about political Zidism.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So just FYI and my latest book, Fade the Black,
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  Speaker 1: I have a whole chapter on fate on biblical Zionism
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  Speaker 1: versus political Zionism, right, and so there is a huge distance.
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  Speaker 1: It's huge. Yep. So you said start with let's start
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  Speaker 1: with political about Hurtzel, let's go all Yeah. So obviously,
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  Speaker 1: you know, around the end of the nineteenth century, there
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  Speaker 1: was a sort of a resurgence of interest in giving
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  Speaker 1: the Jewish people a homeland. Theodore Herzel kind of is
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  Speaker 1: considered the father of the modern Zionist movement. He actually
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  Speaker 1: proposed a plan to move them to Uganda, yea, if
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  Speaker 1: I recall among along others. Yeah, there were plenty of
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  Speaker 1: candidates there, and so that was sort of the seed,
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  Speaker 1: you know, in seed form, this notion that ultimately culminated
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  Speaker 1: after World War Two some fifty years later in giving
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  Speaker 1: Israel their rightful homeland, which is you know, in what
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  Speaker 1: we modern people called Palestine, but it's the Holy land God,
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  Speaker 1: in God's Land, which is marked out in scripture. It
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  Speaker 1: was promised unconditionally to Israel. So yeah, the modern Zionist
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  Speaker 1: movement was more you know, reactionary to persecution, to just
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  Speaker 1: deference to the Jewish people. It really wasn't a spiritual
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  Speaker 1: movement or a biblical movement, although we believe it was
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  Speaker 1: the underpinnings of biblical prophecy setting the stage for it.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, a lot of people, I think, I don't
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  Speaker 1: know how far you want to go with this, But no,
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  Speaker 1: that's good. That's a base because there's a lot of
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  Speaker 1: where we want to go.
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  Speaker 2: But for the sake of clarity for people, look there,
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  Speaker 2: within even political Zionism, it's primarily secular. Hertzel was not
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  Speaker 2: a religious Jew, so this is the religion idea is
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  Speaker 2: not there.
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  Speaker 1: Now Later we.
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  Speaker 2: See even some of the many Orthodox Jews, the ribboning
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  Speaker 2: Jews were actually against the state of Israel because it
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  Speaker 2: was founded by secular, atheistic agnostics, et cetera. So this
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  Speaker 2: idea of what we would say secular Zionism there. But
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  Speaker 2: it's about establishment of a piece of land or for
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  Speaker 2: the Jewish people. Again, as you mentioned, could be they
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  Speaker 2: had many different options. You've gone to others, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: But it landed, as we know in the United Nations
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  Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven, in the land of Israel, as we
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  Speaker 2: understand it now.
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  Speaker 1: So let's come into Christian Zionism. Okay, what is that me? Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: So I tend to lean toward the label Biblical Zionistskay, right,
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  Speaker 1: just because Christian you know, are you talking about the
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  Speaker 1: nar brand you have, right? Biblical? So yeah, So when
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  Speaker 1: we talk about Biblical Zionism, the Bible clearly promises and
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  Speaker 1: details the boundaries of the land three hundred thousand square
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  Speaker 1: miles according to some measurements in Genesis fifteen eight. This
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  Speaker 1: promised land for Abraham and his descendants, and the entire
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  Speaker 1: Old Testament from Genesis twelve on really is focused on
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  Speaker 1: national Israel. Their plan there. God chose them as a
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  Speaker 1: nation to be a light to him. They were to
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  Speaker 1: go in after they left Egypt, across the Jordan into
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  Speaker 1: the Promised Land, and draw all the pagan nations, with
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  Speaker 1: all their pagan gods to him and elevate Yahweh and
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  Speaker 1: be a light to these pagan nations. And God gave
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  Speaker 1: him very clear instructions on what to do, what not
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  Speaker 1: to do. And of course, if you know your Israelology,
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  Speaker 1: you know to borrow Arty's term, you know, they failed.
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  Speaker 1: Let every turn they did, they capitulated to the pagan lands,
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  Speaker 1: they adopted pagan religions. They did not succeed through prophets, priests, kings,
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  Speaker 1: and judges. And eventually God said, Oh, Jesus the Messiah
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  Speaker 1: came and during his earthly ministry he said to the
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  Speaker 1: leaders of Jerusalem in his day, look, I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: take this kingdom from you and give it to a
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  Speaker 1: future nation of Israel that's worthy of it. So he
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  Speaker 1: set Israel aside temporarily enter the Church age, which the
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  Speaker 1: New Testament talks about. And but that doesn't mean he
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  Speaker 1: was through with his future for Israel. There is a
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  Speaker 1: future for national Israel, and so much of the Old
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  Speaker 1: Testament details that very specifically. I'm talking about geographic boundaries,
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  Speaker 1: architect architectural designs, thrones, kingdom's future, you know, Daniel's whole problem,
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  Speaker 1: promise of a future, you know, kingdom and so forth,
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  Speaker 1: so you know, kingdom of his king, there shall be
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  Speaker 1: no end that kind of a thing. So I think
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  Speaker 1: Biblical Zionism says that God has chosen the nation of Israel.
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  Speaker 1: Paul explains the doctrine behind this, that there has chosen nation.
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  Speaker 1: He's free to choose who he wants, Jacob and Esau,
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  Speaker 1: and then you know, temporarily he has set them aside,
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  Speaker 1: but not permanently. Eventually all Israel will be delivered into
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  Speaker 1: the Kingdom when they cry out Hosannah, Hosannah, blessed to
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  Speaker 1: see who comes in the name of the Lord. And so,
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  Speaker 1: even though there was no Israel on the political maps
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  Speaker 1: of world history from roughly into the first century to
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  Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight, if you're a Biblicist, you know, somehow,
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  Speaker 1: some way, God's got a future for Israel. And so
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  Speaker 1: then when Israel did reconstitute as a nation and have
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  Speaker 1: sovereignty and a place on the map, that got a
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  Speaker 1: lot of Christians excited, and Biblical prophecy folks excited because
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  Speaker 1: we're starting to see the beginnings of the fulfillment of prophecy.
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  Speaker 1: So that's where I think things get confused. If you
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  Speaker 1: don't stay in your lane, if you sort of merge
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  Speaker 1: political Zionism with biblical or Christian Zionism, you know, you
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  Speaker 1: don't you don't understand. So for a guy like me,
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  Speaker 1: I'm okay criticizing modern Israel if they do something wrong
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  Speaker 1: and recognizing that they're not there in belief, they have
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  Speaker 1: not recognized their Messiah, none of that. But yet it's
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  Speaker 1: still pretty exciting that they do have a homeland. And oh,
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  Speaker 1: by the way, it's the exact homeland that God promised
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  Speaker 1: them some four thousand years ago. So so yeah, Biblical
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  Speaker 1: Zionism basically just says God has a plan for Israel, national,
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  Speaker 1: geographic Israel, and all of God's prophetic plan of the
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  Speaker 1: ages is going to culminate and center around that territory
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  Speaker 1: and that nation. Tummy, I, doctor Tummy.
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  Speaker 2: I he wrote a book, you know, Christian Zionism, and
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  Speaker 2: in there, and I've quoted this several times in many
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  Speaker 2: of my presentations, is that he basically says that he
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  Speaker 2: summarizes the Christian belief is that for some Christians, not all. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: it's fine that they believe that Israel is still God's
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  Speaker 2: chosen people and that they have a future, the national
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  Speaker 2: Israel has a future at sometime prophetically in the future.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: So that being the case, I'm like, well that if
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  Speaker 2: that's the definition, you know, in the sense of a
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  Speaker 2: very narrow then.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, I'm all on board with that.
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  Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean, again, as we discuss here, that
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  Speaker 2: that automatically requires us to embrace everything that modern Israel
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  Speaker 2: does approve of any of the governments throughout the last
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  Speaker 2: you know, seventy eight years. And so the other thing
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  Speaker 2: that it was brought up by JD. Hall here is
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  Speaker 2: he brings up, you know, the Genesis twelve three, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and he talks about Tucker and Tucker's interview with Ted Cruz.
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  Speaker 2: And there's no doubt I think that Ted Cruz wasn't ready,
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  Speaker 2: you know, why should you support Israel? He brings up
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  Speaker 2: Genesis twelve three, Those who bless you will be blessed,
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  Speaker 2: and those who curse you will be cursed.
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  Speaker 1: Well, the one thing that J. D.
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  Speaker 2: Hall brought up, he said, well, that's referring to Abraham.
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  Speaker 1: That's not referring to Israel.
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  Speaker 2: And so it's sad to me because you know in
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  Speaker 2: Genesis twelve three that we know that that promise is
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  Speaker 2: then given to Isaac, and Genesis twenty seven it's then
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  Speaker 2: given to.
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  Speaker 1: Jacob.
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  Speaker 2: But in addition, my favorite one, which is so ironic,
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  Speaker 2: is that if you go to numbers twenty four, verse nine,
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  Speaker 2: here you have Baalim, the prophet called by Bailik to
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  Speaker 2: curse Israel, and he says, I can't I can only
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  Speaker 2: speak what God tells me. And he's talking not just
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  Speaker 2: about Jacob the person.
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  Speaker 1: Now, he's talking.
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  Speaker 2: About the full twelve tribes that are out there in front,
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  Speaker 2: and he says those who bless them will be blessed,
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  Speaker 2: and those who curse them will be cursed.
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  Speaker 1: So here Balem is speaking specifically.
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  Speaker 2: Taking that promise that was given to Abraham down to Isaac,
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  Speaker 2: down to Jacob, but now one hundred percent on the
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  Speaker 2: twelve tribes of Israel and everything that it's said. And
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  Speaker 2: so I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: Again. The other thing too, JB. I get your comments
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  Speaker 1: on this is.
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  Speaker 2: We kind of joked earlier that Tucker has this guy
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  Speaker 2: on here who's a covenant theologian, and he's asking him,
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  Speaker 2: let's talk about dispensationalism.
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  Speaker 1: And yet why didn't he call you?
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  Speaker 2: Right, I mean, why didn't he call some some person
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  Speaker 2: that is trained in understanding specifically what dispensationalism. But he's
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  Speaker 2: getting a detractor to shape the narrative. Just spring that
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  Speaker 2: out of the gate.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I don't know J. D. Hall either.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, I had not heard of him full disclosure
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  Speaker 1: until this interview. And he seems like a nice enough guy.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure he's a great guy to sit down and
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  Speaker 1: have a coke with and talk and get to know.
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  Speaker 1: But it was it was really surprising to me that
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  Speaker 1: a guy of Tucker's stature, who's you know, an interviewer,
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  Speaker 1: he has a show, he's well respected in that in
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  Speaker 1: the public domain, sure wouldn't know better. And he committed
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  Speaker 1: a fundamental flaw, which is, when you're critiquing a position,
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  Speaker 1: make sure you're fair to the position you're critiquing. Don't
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  Speaker 1: bring up their critics and say we want to critique this,
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  Speaker 1: so let's get all of their critics here and let
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  Speaker 1: the critics decide what they don't like, and think we're
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  Speaker 1: giving him a fair shake. You got to start with
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  Speaker 1: right definition. So I would you know, I would be
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  Speaker 1: happy I opened open letter here to Tucker Carlson, I
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  Speaker 1: and I know many of our colleges would be happy
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  Speaker 1: to come on the show and grace and fairness say hey,
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  Speaker 1: here's what dispensationism is. If we are part of the movement.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I've been on the Council on Dispensational Hermeneutics,
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  Speaker 1: I've been trained at two of the leading dispensational seminaries
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  Speaker 1: I have. You know, we both are good friends with
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  Speaker 1: doctor Tommy Ice, which is another beachhead for advancing dispensational scholarship.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, we'll be glad to tell you what dispensationism is,
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  Speaker 1: and then you can tell us if you disagree. But
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  Speaker 1: I with all, without trying to sound snide, I don't
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  Speaker 1: think JD. Hall would know a dispensations if it came
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  Speaker 1: up and bit him on the rear. I mean, he
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  Speaker 1: just doesn't. He doesn't seem to have a good definition
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  Speaker 1: of dispensationalism. He's not fair to their definition. You know,
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  Speaker 1: I thought the same thing when he tries to minimum
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  Speaker 1: you know, take the minimalist view of Genesis twelve. The
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  Speaker 1: verse that came to my mind was Steven's speech in
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  Speaker 1: Act seven. I don't know if you thought of this either,
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  Speaker 1: but he said, you know, and God gave them no
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  Speaker 1: inheritance in it, not enough to set his foot on.
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  Speaker 1: But even when Abraham had no child, he promised to
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  Speaker 1: give it to him for possession and to his descendants
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  Speaker 1: after him. It wasn't just about Abraham, Yep, it's about
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  Speaker 1: that land. Repeatedly throughout the whole the Old Testament, God
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  Speaker 1: refers to it as my land, my land, my land,
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  Speaker 1: my land. It was God's to give, and he gave
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  Speaker 1: it to his people, not to one individual.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I mean, and if you watch the
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  Speaker 2: beginning here, I'll have some time stamps. But he said,
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  Speaker 2: what is dispensationalism? And he really, he really didn't answer
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  Speaker 2: it in the way, And so here, just for the
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  Speaker 2: sake of people, you can see his response. This is
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  Speaker 2: Charles Ryley's book I mean called dispensational I mean, no
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  Speaker 2: doubt Charles Ryley is the standard as related to understanding
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  Speaker 2: at least a summary. This is his nineteen ninety five edition.
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  Speaker 2: He says, here's a definition that he gives. So I'm surprised, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: why didn't JD. Hall say, well, here, let's read this definition,
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  Speaker 2: because let me just say this first before I read it.
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  Speaker 2: Is when you have a critic, it's going to be
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  Speaker 2: inevitable generally that they're going to develop a straightforward straw
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  Speaker 2: man fallacy. Okay, let's build a straw man. Then we
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  Speaker 2: can attack it or show how weak it is or
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  Speaker 2: how dumb it is. But that's a logical fallacy. So
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  Speaker 2: and he did that many many times. And so here
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  Speaker 2: is the official definition. It says, a concise definition quote
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  Speaker 2: of a dispensation? Is this a dispensation is a distinguishable
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  Speaker 2: economy in the outworking of God's purpose. If one were
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  Speaker 2: describing a dispensation, he would include other things such as
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  Speaker 2: the ideas of distinctive revelation and responsibility testing failure in judgment.
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  Speaker 2: But at this point we are seeking a definition, not
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  Speaker 2: a description. And so right here again out of the gate,
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  Speaker 2: and I have other things that we can talk about.
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  Speaker 2: But so in the Bible the word appears many many places.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe give quickly because I want to move, But what
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  Speaker 2: does the biblical word mean? And then that then we have,
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  Speaker 2: of course a fancy word dispensationalism. So what does what
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  Speaker 2: is that answer that for us?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so first of all, yeah, Ryary's book was originally
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  Speaker 1: Dispensacialism today from the Foundational Dispensational School Dallas Seminary, which
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  Speaker 1: ci Skoefud was heavily involved with. And now it's just
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  Speaker 1: called dispensatism. That's an obvious oversight not to go straight
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  Speaker 1: to that source. Not that Rary invented it, correct, but
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  Speaker 1: he's the authoritative definition. I mean, you have to study
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  Speaker 1: that book if you're going to study what dispensationism is, right,
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean really surprising. But yeah. So the
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  Speaker 1: word dispensation comes straight from Scripture. It's the Greek word
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  Speaker 1: or economy. It's often translated with the cognate econ me
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  Speaker 1: in English, but more often than not stewardship. It's used
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  Speaker 1: seven times in the New Testament, five of them in
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  Speaker 1: the New King James. It's translated stewardship. For example, when
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  Speaker 1: Jesus gives the parable the unjust steward, he's talking about
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  Speaker 1: how he gave the stewards a stewardship. Right, So dispensation
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  Speaker 1: in the grand scheme of God's plan of the ages.
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  Speaker 1: We get that truth from Ephesians chapter three, where Paul says,
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  Speaker 1: have you heard of the dispensation of the grace of
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  Speaker 1: God which was given to me? Which in other ages
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  Speaker 1: was not known, but has now been made known through me?
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  Speaker 1: And so he's talking about a new work that God
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  Speaker 1: is doing through Paul as one of the leading apostles
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  Speaker 1: of the day. So you know, we you know to
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  Speaker 1: Ephesians one ten in the dispensation of the fullest of times,
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  Speaker 1: that he might bring together all things in one So
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  Speaker 1: concise definition would be recognizing that God, throughout the progress
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  Speaker 1: of revelation has interacted with mankind on earth in different
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  Speaker 1: ways with different responsibilities. Pretty straightforward. Clearly, if you didn't
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  Speaker 1: bring a goat with you to church on Sunday, you're
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  Speaker 1: a dispensationist, whether you admit it or not. If you
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  Speaker 1: wear clothes when you tend to your garden, yep, you're
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  Speaker 1: a dispensationist because Adam and Eve didn't. So it's not
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  Speaker 1: different ways of salvation, and it's always salvation by grace
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  Speaker 1: through faith. Has nothing to do with salvation. It's just
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  Speaker 1: the expectation that God puts upon his people for how
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: they are to act and interact with Him. So you
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: have in the garden they interacted one way, they walked
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: and talked, and during the law they interacted under the
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: stewardship of the law. Today we interact under the stewardship
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: of the Holy Spirit in dwelling us. So that's all
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: that is, as precisely as the Word says. Precisely as
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Ephesians explains, God is working out his plan according to different.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Stewardships, and so let me There's another aspect that comes
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: in sometimes, which often can be confused. Is this idea
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: of again God giving a management the word stewardship.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: It's a manager.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: He's given a certain bit of progressive revelation and saying, hey,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: I want you to mankind, I want you to follow,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: I want you to obey me here and then that
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: stays on for an amount of time. So a dispensation
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: is not equivalent biblically with the idea of an eye
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: own or an age. However, just naturally, because we live
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: in time, there was it. There's changes many times from
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: what God expects. One of the best examples I like
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: to use is you mentioned the garden. Well, in the garden,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: everybody ate vegetables Genesis one, twenty eight, twenty nine. They
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: were vegetarians, and then they were vegetarians until Genesis nine
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: after the flood, and God says, now you can eat meat,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: just don't eat the blood. Okay, don't eat the blood
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: of that. And then you go to the under the law. Well,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: now he's got kosher laws, and you know, now it's
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: not just all meat. It's well, you can't eat pork,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: and you can't eat shrimp. And then you come to
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: the New Testament and Mark seven is very clear that
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: you know, Mark says Jesus declared all foods clean for
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Timothy four other passages.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, whoa, and which one is it? God?
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: So God is modifying and he's saying and he didn't
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: say I want you to do this for five hundred years,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: but when he introduces a new requirement, time has passed.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: So that's why I think dispensationalism comes it. Sometimes it
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: gets picked on. It just says, we recognize that there's
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: been different economies through the passage of time. Again, God
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: didn't just slap a Bible full Bible Genesis revelation to Adam. No,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: it is very much connected with a progression.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: The dispensationalists in the theological realm are highly sensitive to
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: the progress of revelation. It in facts everything we do
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: in terms of interpretation, not just prophecy, but so teiology,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: every area of theology. We are sensitive to the fact
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: that later revelation cannot fundamentally change the meaning of prior revelation.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: And that's going to be important when we get into
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: some of these other things that JD said. But let
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: me just say this. When I was teaching for twelve
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: years full time at a college in seminar and I
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: would teach on dispensationism of premillennialism, that was the course title.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: On almost every time on day one, first class session,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: I would ask students get out a piece of paper,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: define dispensationalists. And then I would quickly say when I
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: would you know, read their answers or they would read
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: their answers, and many times it was oh, it's a
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: series of time periods, right, yes, And I would go, No,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: that's a common misunderstanding. It's it's wrong. No dispensationist has
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: ever taught different time periods. It's different stewardships. Well, obviously,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: if a stewardship has a beginning as you just said,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: and an end, it's going to result in time periods.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: But that's not what it is. And so JD. Hall
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: made one of the fundamental mistakes that that's out there,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and it's an embarrassing one to be honest, that dispins
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: satism does not teach different time periods. It teaches different stewardships. Yeah,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent. And so.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Let me just say this too, that one of the
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: things that often is is is commented is that that
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Darby invented all these things. And so there's different there's
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: different elements, not not requirements, but different elements of dispensational thinking.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: And so I talk about these where you have different
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: dispensations and in again that involved can involve time frames.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: As we mentioned premillennialism. There's a future Antichrist, a future
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: little rebuilt temple at the end of the age sat
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: in by the Antichrist.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: You have a distinction between us one and the Church.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: You have a flying away rapture before the wrath of God,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: two phases of the return of Jesus in some form,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: and a gap of time between the six and seven
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: the week. So those are just some of the elements
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: that come out of dispensationalism. But what they say is
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: all those were completely invented by Darby, and I show
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: that all those can be found in church history. Yeah,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: all of them can be found. Check check check every
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: single one of them. So maybe give a give a,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: give us a thirty second. How did Darby come along
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: in system all this?
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So, by the way, you can also find a
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: gap between the sixth, ninth and seventieth week in the
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Bible exactly.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: That's my full point is all these are biblical things,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: but yet they often say they were.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: No, this is not church history.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: This is manufactured in eighteen thirty.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's I hate to say, but it's the
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: same old drivell that we you and I have talked
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: about before. But other people echoing this claim that Darby
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: invented dispensationalism and they did it, got it from some
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: demon possessed girl or whatever. Tommy Ice and myself, Lee
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Brainder many others have shown that that is provably false.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: But how did Darby systematize it? Well, everything happens in
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: a context. Remember, Darby was living in an age coming
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: out of you know, the the Reformation, and then the
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: printing press and all these things start to flourish. People
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: are reading the Bible for themselves. By the time you
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: get to Darby's time there there you've got the Bible
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Conference movement and the you know, the Niagara Bible Conferences,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: things like that, and so people are actually reading the
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Bible and taking it in its literal, grammatical, historical form.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: And he starts to say, hey, let's let's look at
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: the two peoples of God. The distinction between God's plan
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: for the Church and God's plan for Israel, that that
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: they're they're their distinct they don't ever become one people.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: God has a plan for Israel. It still has a future.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: God has a plan currently for the Church which will
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: end at the rapture. We will then be the bride
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: of Christ, will be reigning and ruling with him in
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: the kingdom. Uh. So he begins to see that distinction,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: and he just systematized it his you know, synopsis of
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: the books of the Bible, you know, Uh, it was
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: a big part of that. And and yeah, his writings
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: is a prolific writer. But I took issue with the
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: suggestion that Darby was a heretic or was someone separatist.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: No, No, that's exactly. He rejected authority of the established churches,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: if he's some renegade.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah he did. I mean, right, exactly, come
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: on exactly that. I mean, he definitely departed from the
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: established church and nothing wrong with that. That's that's part
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: of arch history, you know.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: And I would I would be I would encourage anybody
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: if you take JD. Hall or I'm not picking on him,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: but you take his academic credentials and put him up
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: against Darby's.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Darby was a brilliant scholar. Oh yeah, language is everything.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know Hall's perspective, but you want to talk
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: about just an academic or a person.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: That's No.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Darby wasn't some back backwards country bumpkin. You know, that
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: was just regaling against established church authority.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's the that's the picture they paint, especially
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: when that tired old Margaret McDonald's story gets bounced around.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: But no, he was a very respective man. Was he perfect?
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: No?
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Was he flawed? No? I think we're going to get
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: to ce I Schofield too, which I particularly passionate about that,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: So I'll wait and tell you about that when we
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: get there. But no, these guys were very scholarly, and uh,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: you know there was they were all not Derby, but
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Schofield was instrumental in starting Dallas Seminary in the twenties.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Dallas Seminary is also often sort of you know, made
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: fun of and picked on by people who don't know better.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: But it was like it was like the Harvard or
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Princeton of theology schools. It was like everybody wanted to
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: go there. I remember when I went there, you know,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety, I felt like I was walking on
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: holy ground. When you realize the impact that the scholarship
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: coming out of Dallas Seminary has had on the world, yes,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: it's phenomenal. Now obviously, you know, no seminary is perfect.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: There's there's you know, bad teaching that comes out of
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: every place. You would get all that, and Darby was
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: not perfect. Gofield was not perfect. But to suggest that
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: he was some kind of country bumpkin that made up
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: or invented dispensationalism, yeah.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Are they sitting out to has an axe to grind
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: against the established church?
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're not doing your homework.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: No, and so so at the ten fifty five mark.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: This is super important because this is pretty common within
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Covenant theology. Galatians three sixteen and just describing and he says, quote,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: the promises were not given to the Jews, but to Jesus.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so here right out of the eight.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I think this is a I think a misunderstanding of
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: the whole theology of relations chapter three. Let's let's respond
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: to that comment that in reality, all these promises et cetera,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: et cetera are found in Jesus. I did the presentation
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: last week where everything for a Covenant theology, it dissolves
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: into Jesus. It's transferred into Jesus, and somehow that's this
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: mystical we don't there's a reinterpretation of all the Old
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Testament and it's very normal reading that. Somehow it just
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: gets again absorbed into the person of Jesus.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a great presentation. By the way, folks
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: need to get the Propcy Watchers package just for that
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: one message. It was hilarious the way you weave that
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: together and showed that was wrong. So I have a
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: teaching that I do and a chart that we have
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: in our MBW chart book on the four Seeds of Abraham.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: And when you understand that, then it begins to become clear.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: So you know, it's not a technical term as he's
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: suggesting that it's all fulfilled in Jesus. That's one part
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: of a bigger process. So you've got the natural seed
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: of Abraham that Paul talks about in Romans nine, that
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: are the physical descendants of Abraham, in other words, ethnic Jews,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: natural seed. But he says, just because you're a natural
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: seed doesn't mean you get the blessings, because you, like
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: every human being, are born dead in your trespasses and sins,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and you need to believe you before you can call
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: on the name of the Lord and be delivered in
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the Kingdom. You must first believe the Gospel. So not
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: all are Israel, who are of Israel or our Israel.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: So he goes on to talk about and we get
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: this from Romans ninety six, what I categorize as the
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: natural spiritual seed. Right, so they're Jews, ethnic Jews, but
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: they've been saved by faith and they're born again. But
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: then you've got, as going back to Galatians three twenty nine,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: the spiritual seed, that is non Jews like you and me,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: who also have been born again. And so therefore we
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: too will experience the Kingdom blessings. Remember what Genesis twelve
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: says that through Abraham, all the nations in the arth
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: will bless It was never just about Abraham or just
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: about Israel, is about global kingdom. And so we if
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: you are a spiritual seed of Abraham, you'll experience those blessings.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: But then the ultimate seed of Abraham capital s of course,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: is Jesus Christ. So you've got the natural seed, the
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: natural spiritual seed which is saved Jews, the spiritual seed
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: saved Gentiles, and the ultimate seed of Christ. And only
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: when you and each of those the Bible, we have
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Bible references for them. Only when you understand that, can
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: you really understand the references to the seed of Abraham.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think to say that again quote promises
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: were not given to the Jews but to Jesus. I
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: think that's so false because the fact of the matter
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: is there were many promises that were given specifically to
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: the Jews who experienced them really from the time they
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: were in the land. They were in the land, that's
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: a promise they were giving them all the way through.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: So clearly those promises were given to the Jews, and
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: certainly by extension to the perfect Israelite, which is Jesus.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: The other thing that happens there in Galatians three is
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Covenant theology approaches Galatians three and they're looking to remove
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: the Jews, when in fact, what you have there in
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: the theology is Paul is describing not the removal of
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: the promises to the Jews, but the addition to explain
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: the addition, Hey, there's other people that are now receiving
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: the promises in addition to the Jews. So just because
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: they come in and we're grafted in to receive the promises,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: as we know in Romans eleven, it doesn't remove all
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: of the Jews because many, as you said, Messianic believers
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: receive those promises as well. So Galatians tree is not
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: about who's removed, it's about who's at percent.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just like Romans eleven and the olive tree. You know, people,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: he misunderstood that or is that on your list? The
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: olive tree the whole Yeah, that's down down the right all.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Should we talk about it now? Yeah, it kind of relates. Yeah,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: so people misunderstand the olive tree and analogy that Paul
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: makes in Romans eleven is not suggesting that the Church
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: has replaced Israel. Olive tree represents the place of God's blessing.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: It's not Israel, because he talks about they own the
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: olive tree. At one point, they can't be the olive
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: tree and own the olive tar exactly. So the olive
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: tree is not Israel. The all tree is the place
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: of God's blessing. And because of unbelief, Israel has been
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: hacked off, you know, and the Church has been grafted
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: into the place of God's blessing. Indeed, we're center stage
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: right now, we're experiencing the blessings of the Holy Spirit
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: and all those things national Israel.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: It says there that they were partially blinded, right, they're
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: partially blinded, not fully because we know that again there's
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: some Messianic believers that are still.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Participately not complete, and it's not permanent. It's not permanent, right,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: total and it's not permanent. So and so. But at
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: some point you know that Israel will be grafted back
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: in and they'll they'll once again return to the place
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: of blessing. And that's what they miss. It's so plain
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: to see at the end when he says, you know,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: blindness and part has happened until the fullness of the
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Gentiles has come in verse twenty six, then all Israel
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: will be delivered into the the Kingdom when the deliverer
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: comes out of Zion. They don't like to quote that part. Yeah,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: they skip that one. So, yeah, you're right, totally right.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: In Galatians and in Romans, it's about who is, you know,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: added to the errors of the promise, not who is
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: abandoning or been removed from it. Okay, so I'm just
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: gonna make it. We'll go, We'll go quicker. So at the.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Eleven thirty mark, Hall says, Christian Zionists say, quote, we
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: have to bless Jews in order for God to bless us.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: So I'm a Christian, I would say I'm a Christian
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Zionist under the definition that we gave earlier. I have
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: never said that you have to go bless a Jewish
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: person in order for God to bless us as a pastor,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: never has it ever come out of my mouth. Now,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: let's let's bring up something else here within Christian Zionism.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: And again in one of my other presentations too, I
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: presented extremes. There's some extremes. You have some that again
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: are again that hate Israel, whatever, and then you have
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: others that are so pro Israel and so Prosionist that
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: they're unbalanced.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: So again here J. D.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Hall is making a generalized statement of some people who
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: are abusing I would say, a dispensational doctrinal viewpoint, which
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: is balanced. So it's easy to quote, you know, an
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: abuser of the doctrine and then generalize that. Have you
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: ever said that, I mean, ever we have to bless
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Jews in order for God to bless us?
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Oh? In fact, I'm on record many times of being
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: willing to be critical constructively of modern Israel when they
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: do things that God wouldn't please, wasn't pleased with. Look God,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: God's word is filled with bad leaders in Israel who
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: were chastised you know ahab jesup held, parent, heard, or killed.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: So you know, certainly God sets the record, History sets
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: the example, and we today should feel the same way
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: that we can criticize Israel. We don't have to bless
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Israel to be blessed. You know what that means is
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: we understand that God has a future for national Israel.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: There's a special place God's heart for Israel. The Bible
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: calls him the apple of his eye, and so all
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: things being equal, we look forward to the day when
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Israel receives her Messiah, when they look on him and
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: they've didn't. Paul say that again in Roman's eleven.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: He says, look, have they stumbled that they would completely
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: fall off the wagon?
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: No, and they get the gifts in the Calling of
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: God a revocal.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: But then he says, look, if by their stumbling blessing
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: has come to the gentiles, how much more their restoration
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: is going to bring life from the dead.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: I know, that's that's one of my favorite parts. That's
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: where Roma's eleven, what is it nine or eleven and twelve? Yeah,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I mean essentially that's a great reminder for the church
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: and for replacement theologians who think the church is all that. Yes,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Paul basically says not to be. I don't know if
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: this is a appropriate metaphor, but the church is really
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the other woman. Really, the Church is driving Israel back
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: to Christ. We want what they had, you know, we
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: squandered it, We missed it. Boy, I wish we had
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: that intimate fellowship. I wish we had that in dwelling
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: holy Spirit. I wish we had that unmitigated alces provoke jealousy.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: That's what the text says, you know, but to provoke
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: them to jealousy. Salvation has come to the gentiles. So
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: God's using the church and in his plan of the Ages,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: and certainly using it to evangelize the world today. But
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: as it relates to Israel, when Christ comes back a
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: second time, they're going to have a better context now
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: and they're going to go, Ah, I see what it
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: means for him to be our God and us to
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: be his people than that intimacy, and so we're going
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: to receive him by faith? Right, how can they call
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: on him and whom they have not believed? Faith comes
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: by hearing, hearing by the word of God, so they'll
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: hear him Romans ten. Then the Deliverer comes out of Zion,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: and then all israel is is saved. Yeah, it's amazing
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: how they don't connect those obvious dots there.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the just to be labored that one
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: more time is that the church is glorious. We understand
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: the blessings of the Church that we have that we've
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: been given for salvation.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Men.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: But what Paul saying is if you think that's great,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: just wait, yes, so you think you know, make sure
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: he he says you know later verse twenty five. Don't
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: be proud, don't be in your own mind, don't be
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: arrogant towards the branches that have provoken a But in
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: fact you think you got a good now, just wait
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: till they're restored, so that blessing is going to be
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: even more and you go, really more than now?
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, in the millennium. Yeah, and so that's why you
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: know it. All the whole plan all along was for
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Israel to go into the Promised Land and everything to
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: emanate from there. It didn't happen. They failed, They failed,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: and so it's going to happen though, because the gifts
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: in calling God are revocable. All of his promises are guaranteed, unconditional,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: and so in the millennium it's going to be unprecedented
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: peace and righteousness and justice and you know ju jinentalai
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: like coming up to worship and so yeah, God is
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: using Israel, He's using the church. But there are different plans.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: So okay, another couple quotes here at the twelve ten mark,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Jews who don't believe in Jesus are not children of Abraham. Well,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: we already kind of discussed that that there's a in
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Roman Shepherd two, he's beginning to distinguish to the Jews.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: To the Jews, there are those that are circumcised externally,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: but not circumcised of the heart. Circumcision of the heart
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: goes all the way back to Deuteronomy Jeremiah, and so again,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: his point there was simply trying to say that the
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Jews who don't believe in Jesus or they're not Childrenham,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: that they're trying to redefine that there's only one now
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: that a true child of Abraham has nothing to do
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: with ethnicity, which you already showed that there's four different
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: elements in the Bible. So okay, let's let's let's just
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: move on.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: He says, just to give the verse with people Versus
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: not Romans nine six and seven. They are not all
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: because they are the seed of Abraham. Right. In other words,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: you have to be saved. Your ethnicity doesn't give you
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: a free pass to get into the kingdom.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: And Jesus said that Matthew eight, Hey, then you're gonna
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: sit down at the table in that day and with
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Abraham as and Jacob, but the sons of the Kingdom,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: the Jewish people are going to be cast out.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: So clearly we see from.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: A consistency from John the Baptist repent who don't say
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: that you're children of Abraham.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Big deal, all you can bring it from these stones.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, so you have you have a consistency there.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: So at the twelve mark, he says, quote, Romans eleven
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: has unbelieving Jews severed from Abraham, and in their place
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: are believing gentiles. And it's interesting that they do not
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: like being called replacement theologians.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: But yet he.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Can't even it's it was oozing out of him that
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: I don't know how like this is a direct quote. Again,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: you can look at a twelve thirty place, Yes, and
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: in their place are believing gentiles. So are does Romans
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: eleven sever the Jews from Abraham? And we did it
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: a little bit there.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: But yeah, correct his no, it's called it. It severs the
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: first century Jewish nation temporarily, not permanently, from the place
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: of blessing that God brings in the church and reminds
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: the church by the way, you too can be cut
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: off if you don't have faith. And then eventually He's
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: going to bring the Jews back in. I mean, read
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: the rest of the chapter. It's very clear he's totally
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: missing the point of that passage. So let's see if
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: I can. My writing's pretty spell here.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: So at the fifteen mark, he says, dispensationalism say, quote,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Jews are special in a way that other ethnicities are not?
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Is that what we say? That Jews are special in
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: a way that other ethnicity? And this was really you
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: listen to it, But I felt that he was very
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: clear that US dispensations were trying to elevate the Jews
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: to be better than Americans or Chinese or whatever. And
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: so somehow we are we are blindly loyal to the
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Jewish person, no matter what. Therefore we're elevating them better
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: than every other group.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Is that what we do? No, not at all. But
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: it reminds me of the conversation that Paul has in
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Romans nine. Is there unrighteousness with God? I mean, no, God?
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Got why so the pot doesn't get to say to
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: the potter, make me like a god chose? Look that's
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: what he says, Jacob, I have loved he saw, I've
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: hated using hyperbole there, and just by degree he's just saying, look,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: I chose Jacob, That's my paragon. So the church is
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: just acknowledging that God chose Jacob as the apple of
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: his eye. That's not saying that we think that Israel
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: and the Jews are better than every other nation. We
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: just understand their role in God's plan of the ages.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, we know in Jeremy nine crystal clear that
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: God says, when you get into the land, this is
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Moses right before they're going to get you know, his
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: final will and testament to him. When you get in
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: the land, don't say to yourselves because.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Of my righteousness, my uprightness centered over.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: So they were not chosen for anything special. But let's
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: not forget though that Roma's nine also says, Paul's very
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: sad about it. He's talking about his brothers, his ding brothers,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: and he says to them, belong the Covenant, the promises
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: that the scripture, it wasn't past tense. He didn't say,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: oh they lost it. And this is I love sharing
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: this because what you have in he wrote this roughly
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: fifty seven AD. Roughly okay, so whatever at that time
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: that the time right there is equivalent to today. You
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: couldn't say that you couldn't say, take Romans nine and
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: then make it equivalent to eighteen fifty because there was
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: no Israel. So in Romans nine, you have a rebellious
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: national Israel still in the land. Okay, there's a very
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: few Messianic believers. Okay, And today we have rebellious national
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Israel in the land, very few Messianic believers. Identical situation. Well,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: in Romans nine, he says to them, still belong.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: It's present tense, it's not past. They didn't lose them then,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: and they don't they haven't lost them now.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, Paul says in Ephesians too, speaking to Gentiles,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: at that time, you were without Christ, being aliens from
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: the Commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of Promise,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: having no hope without God in the world. I think
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: we need to distinct between God's national promises and individual
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: God loves the entire world, every human being. He sent
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: his son, our Savior, to shed his blood and satisfy
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: the wrath of God and pay the penalty for every
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: human gang. I don't care whether you're from Costa Rica, America, Israel,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: or Canada. So there's individuals which are all equal in
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: the side of God and all in need of a savior.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: But there's nations, and yes, God chooses nations. He's God,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: we're not. And I'm not going to tell the potter
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: how to mold the plan of the ages. So yeah,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: that's a powerful passage there in Roma's nine four that
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: you know, these are the ones that per to whom pertain,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the covenants, the giving law, the service of God, and
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: the promises. They're still there. It's unconditional. In fact, we
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: know this. Jeremiah makes it clear that as long as
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: there's a sun, moon and stars. You're you know, pretty
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: good at looking at the stars, have you noticed are
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: they still There're still there? Then there's a future for
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: national Israel. You know.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: He says that exact phrase in Jeremy thirty one thirty
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: five that it'll never cease to have the nation before
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: me than the nation of Israel. And yeah, but they
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: are set apart, or they are set aside at the moment.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: And I want to say something else too, because this
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: comes up, is that, look, everybody, when we describe again
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: in Romans nine, and he goes back to Romans three,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: pul says, well, what advantages the Jew in every way,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: he says, because to them were given the covenants. So
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: they did have an advantage, not because they were special,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: but because of God's choice. So when we say today
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: and tell me if you can agree with me, is
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: that when people say, do you still believe that the
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Jews are God's chosen people today? You mean the ones
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: living in the land. Yes, they're chosen, but that doesn't
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: mean they're saved. Under the Old Testament, chosen means separated.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Correct Now, granted the New Testament chosen has a little
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: bit different New Testament theological nuance, But to say that
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: they are still chosen people does not mean that's automatically
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: salvation universally across every lesson.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: No. No. In fact, I think dispensationists do a much
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: better job of nuancing God's consistency in the plan of
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: salvation from age to age over time, because we would say,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: for example, in the Old Testament Israel and the time
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: of Israel on the day of Atonement, just because the
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: high Priest went in to the Holy of Holies one
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: time a year Leviticus sixteen, did that mean every Jew
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: living in the land was heaven bound. Yep, No, not
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: even close. No, every Jew, just like every gentile, must
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: personally place his or her faith in Jesus Christ. So
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: we know this also. You know, when you think about
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Moses and the children of this were on the Promised Land.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: They didn't get to go into the Promised Land. But
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: it doesn't mean they went to Hell. A lot of
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: people's called promised land Heaven. No, it's it's individual faith.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: And that's the whole point Paul is making in Romans nine,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: ten and eleven is He's like, look, they think they
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: have self righteousness. They don't need self righteousness, they need
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: faith righteousness. And when they place their faith in Christ,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: then and only then can they cry out, as Joel
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: two thirty two says, you know, come, you know, blessed
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: to see who comes to the name of the Lord.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: So or you know, call the name of Lord and
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: be delivered into the Kingdom. So yeah, I mean the
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Bible has a special place for Israel. I've got another
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: chart that comes fround here, the five purposes for Israel
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: and God's plant of the Ages. One is to witness
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: to the unity of the Creator. Two is to be
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: an example to the nations of benefiting of the benefit
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: of serving the Creator. Number three, here's a biggie to
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: receive and record God's revelation. Every book of the Bible,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: including Luke. I believe every one of them. So for
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: ones of the Jewish people, we wouldn't have a Bible.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Is that not special? I mean again not worthy? Yeah?
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: But so here again his claim is that dispy's are
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: dispensations are elevating Jews in a special way that other
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: ethnicities are not.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: I've never said that, No one has ever said that
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: to produce the Savior, which he acknowledges that. But that's
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: not all their purpose was, Yes, that their only purpose. Yeah,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: and then and then the fifth to be center stage
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: in the global king. So yeah, there's a difference between
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Israel and the Church.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: But let's but let's sit back and say, okay, I
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: can't quote dispensation will say Jews are special in the
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: way that other ethnicies are not.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Well, in fact, that is true the nation of Israel
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: as well. Yes, because Jews implies individual Jews, and no
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: one person is more special God than another. But a
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: nation can be. And that's clearly before says that exact thing. Well,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: other nation is there that God has chosen one hundred
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: percent throughout time. I mean, he's jealous for his people,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: you know, it's his holy land. But I mean Paul
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: actually anticipates this very conversation in Romans nine. He's like, oh, well,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: you know, you think that sounds unfair that God would
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: choose one nation. Well, who are you to say to
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: the potter. So we're having the same conversation Paul anticipated
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: under the inspiration of the spirits, you know, two thousand
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: years ago.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so again this is where we need the nuance things.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: And again, no one we we recognize that the place
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: of national Israel in the plan of God going back
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: to Abraham, but it doesn't automatically make them more special
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: inherently as part.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Of God's plan. Clearly, absolutely so.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: In at the seventeen thirty mark, he says, dispensational wills
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: say that the world is blessed through Israel, but it
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: is through Christ.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, Christ is the ultimate seat of Abraham. But the
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: kingdom that so much of the Old Testament talks about
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Isaiah Ezekiel, so many pictures we get of the kingdom,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: ates where does it emanate from from Zion, from Israel?
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: That the geographic changes, the boundaries, the nations from all
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: over the world are going to come up to Jerusalem
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: and worship Jesus Christ sitting on the throne in the
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. So yes, it's through Israel that
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: all the nations of the earth are blessed. And yes,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: it's through Christ that all the nations of the earth
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: are breasts. I think the other thing that he's implying
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: here is that that we are saying today right now
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: that the world is blessed through modern Israel, not through
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Jesus nosion no one I know. In fact, I've said
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: in class before. You know, if if Israel had a
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: rogue leader who fired a scud missile at the US,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I'd fire one right back. Absolutely. I mean, I'm defending
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: my nation right. So no, we're not suggesting you've got to,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: you know, bless modern Israel and have you know, be
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: indiscriminate and blind to whatever they're doing. It's about the
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: God's plan for national Israel in the future. So okay.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: So he says here at the twenty thirteen mark, dispensationalism
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: quote is a Jewish interpretive model. We interpret the scripture
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: as Jews interpret the scripture.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: And then he says, they brag about it. Well, the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Jews miss Jesus, and so I really that's I think
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: that's about when I felt like I needed to turn
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: it off because I was going to break my brain. Really.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So that because we recognize that Secrety's three that
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: Paul says, when the Jews read the the Tanak the
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Old Testament without Jesus, there's a veil. Okay, that's very clear,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: and so his he is basically what he's saying is,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: since we are interpreting it from that seemingly implied to
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: a rabbinic Jewish model, therefore, well they missed Jesus, therefore
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: we're missing Jesus.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: Is it a Jewish interpretive model? No, and you don't.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, any interpret model has to be understood in
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: its historical, literal context. Right, So let's ask David someday,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: what did he think when God promised him a throne
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: and a kingdom and a territory. Did he think it
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: was going to be a spiritual one in the heart
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: of mankind? Or did he Was he picturing brick and mortar? Yes? Yeah,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: so in that sense, yeah, we take the Bible in
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: its contextual meaning. But there's nothing Jewish about our model.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: And we acknowledge that the Jews stumbled at the stumbling stone,
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: they missed the Messiah, and Jesus rebukes them for that.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: You know, you know how to discern the weather, but
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: you can't tell the signs of the times.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: And in fact, I think one of you know, one
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: of our favorite you know scholars is doctor eld frektrmum.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's a Messianic chew and and he takes
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: things from a Jewish perspective, but he takes it straight forward.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: And you know what, as we as we say all
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: the time, most not all, but most of the first
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: most of the prophecies related the first community Jesus were
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: very straightforward, literal, Oh yeah, most of them.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: And they don't. And then they these guys like JD. Hall,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: they switched their hermonutic inexplicably without justification in the text,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: to an allegorical method. I mean, they literally believe he
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: was born of a virgin yep, they lived and in Bevlhem,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: and that there was a forerunner, and so many other prophecies. Uh.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: But then for some reason, all these prophecies that are
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: future that are very detailed, I mean Ezekiel forty to
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: forty eight. You can't get more detailed than that, the
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: boundaries of the Promised Land, all these things. Somehow they
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: just brush that aside. That's all Jesus, you know, like
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: you said, So okay.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: So here's another little little dig in twenty one at
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: the twenty one twenty marker quote by JD. Hall quote,
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: the church is a parenthesis instead of the bride of Christ.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: It is a summer fleeing. Jews are at the center
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: instead of Jesus at the center. God has a love
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: affair with Israel, and the church is secondary unquote. So
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: here again targeting the idea of of what some dispensational
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: scholars have used, the idea of the church being a parenthesis,
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: that it's as if secondary after the fact, God wasn't aware,
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: so now he's got to shift and pivot and so
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: oh this wasn't my plan from the beginning.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: It's a PARENTHETL. Yeah, it's a plan. B. No. No,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: I mean you're a writer, and so parenthesis is a
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: legitimate grammatical tool. Yes, you know, you don't when you
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: see apparenthesis, you don't think, oh this is irrelevant. I
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: don't even need to read yet or ooop, that's after
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: the fact that thought, right, yeah, no, this is something
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: that's part of the flow of the sentence. You still
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: have a first word of the sentence in a period,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: so it's still part of the sentence. It's just not
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: an after you know, it's not it's not you know,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: it's not spl I see it right, So it's I
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: think it's a legitimate metaphor. I know it takes a
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: lot of heat, and we've kind of gotten away from
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: using it in dispensational circles, but I don't have a
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: problem with it. It makes perfect sense, you think, you know,
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: if you go back to Daniel nine, Daniel clearly says that,
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: you know, after the end of the sixty ninth week,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: there's then some things are going to happen. Then Messiah
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: is going to be cut off, the jurisalm will be destroyed,
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: and then some time later the Covenant's going to be signed,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: which starts the clock ticking on the final week of Daniel.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: But it's there's a gap of time there. The New
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Testament comes along and explicitly says, hey, I'm telling you
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: something new that you didn't hear about in the Old Testament.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: And it fits right in that gap of time. It
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: has a definite beginning on the day of Pentecost, a
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: definite ending on the day of the rapture, just like
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: a parenthesis. And then he's shifting back to the to
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: the previous narrative with Israel. So it's like three acts,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Act one Israel, act to a church, Act three Israel. Yeah,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: you know, there's not you know, I don't understand it well.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: And you brought it up earlier as it relates to
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: the exact word of dispensation and Ephesians two and three,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: where Paul is saying, Hey, this was a mystery, and
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: this is why I find it fascinating that many of
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: them don't understand the theology of mystery in the New Testament.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: You know, something unrevealed in the Old Testament. And so
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Paul saying, hey, by the way, this idea of the
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Jews and Gentiles being together in one body, this mystery
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: that is now revealed to him, was unrevealed in the
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: Old Testament. Gentile's being saved that was revealed in the
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: Old Testament. So give me a thirty second. What is
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: then the mystery again that Paul's referring to. There that
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: was unrevealed because gentile's being saved clearly was So.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: What's the mystery? So I actually spoke on this at
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: rapture in the rockies. My first session was on a
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: one minute before the rapture and I and I gave
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: the definition of mysterion if you look it up in
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: bat beatag straight secret doctrine in from aation previously hidden
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: now being revealed. So what was that information that Jew
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: and gentile we're going to be together in one body,
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: baptized by the Holy Spirit and dwelt by the Holy
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Spirit and be used of God in the present age.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: It's a new era, it's a new okay.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: So on that, How does that new mystery unfolding, which
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: obviously was happening for the Fesians, how does that differ
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: from a gentile getting saved under the Old Testent.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: Well, in the Old Testament, they weren't permanently and dwelt
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: with the Holy Spirit. Number one, they weren't baptized with
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit. Number two, a gentile to get saved,
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: and the Old Testament became a proselyte in hunder the
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Jew take on the law right, took on the law.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: And that was the way they interacted. It wasn't the
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: different means of salvation, it was a different stewardship. And
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: so that's what we're saying that these economy is, which
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: is where the word dispensation comes from. In the Old Testament,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: they interacted with God through the priestly system, through the
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: sacrifices and all that. Today we can come boldly to
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: the corona grace to find grace and help in time
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: any we don't go through our humans.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: And Ephesians two, you know, fifteen says that the that
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: that middle wall of partition, that law has been broken down,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: which which is what was required under the Old Testament.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: I think about Ruth, your God will be my God,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: your people my people. So today that new fellowship of
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: JUSI and Gentiles, the law is.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Not required, and the veil rented too at the cross.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: So again, so you can see some of these pejoratives.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: Idea of a parenthesis, which I think I don't know
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: is again whether he's read the book or not in
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: the sense of that. So in twenty four he says, quote,
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: this is an basically it's an insult to Jesus because
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: he is the son of Man, and I think that's quoted,
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: or he says, and that's a quote from Isaiah. Well,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: first of all, the son of Man is not from
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: Isaiah's for Naneel seven.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: I know I'm gonna say it's from Daniels. I screamed
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: that when I heard him say that, I'm like, they
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: never says son of Man in Isaiah. It's Daniel the
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: first time one like the son of Man. So you know, hey,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: I've misquoted scripture. So maybe he misquoted. Well, give me
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: the benefit of doubt. But his point.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: There was that again I think even theologically he's incorrect
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: that the the son of Man is not it's an
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: insult to Jesus because Jesus is a savior to humanity.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: That's not what the son of Man means in Daniel seven,
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: by not talking about humanity. So here again he says
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: that because of again our viewpoints, we're insulting Jesus because
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: his ministry.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: Is far broader. Was his ministry only to the Jews? No,
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: not at all. And you know this ties into what
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: you were just you know, sort of addressing that, he says,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: he almost makes it sound like we think the church
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: is irrelevant or then we're all about history. Secondary we're
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: a summer fleeing. Yeah, that's insulting. That's a very insulting
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: because just like the Bible preaches five clear purposes for Israel,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: we can see five clear purposes for the Church. And
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: a proper ecclesiology. To use the theological term helps you
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: recognize what an incredible blessing this is. So God's using
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: the church to call out of people for his name.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: You know, the Jews were not called yahweh Heites, but
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: we're called Christians. That's pretty significant. To showcase the exceeding
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: riches of God's grace and mercy Ephesians two seven. Like
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: never before God's grace was evident in the Old Testament.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: That God's grace is consistent, but we're seeing in high
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: definition color four K color today through the church. It's
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: amazing to get Asrael's attention. We talk about that being
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: one of the purposes of the church. I love this one.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: People don't talk about it a lot, but Ifphesians three ten,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: one of the purposes of the church is to showcase
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: God's wisdom to Satan, Yeah, to the angels, to the
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: angels and the demonic realm and the angelic realm. That's
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: pretty amazing. And then just as Israel's purpose is to
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: be center stage in the global kingdom someday, the Church's
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: purpose is to prepare a body that will help rule
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: in the kingdom someday. So yeah, there's a we love
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: the church. We're privileged to be a part of the church.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: It's an amazing I mean, I often think about what
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: it would have been like if I had live to
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Noah's day or you know, David's day, But I live
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: in the church age, and what a blessing that is.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: So we're not denigrating the church in any way.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: So again, this is where I think for us, if
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: we were to you know, hey, you know, Jabe, can
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: you explain you know, Covenant theology, I would be committing
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: the same crime as s.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Tucker.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: And instead of getting in a cove of theologian and
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: so you have all these these straw man arguments that potentially,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: you know, certainly could come up and and it's like
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: we and you and again I could go find in fact,
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: I could go find the most radical extreme Covenant theologian
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: and bring them on and have them basically falsely represent
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: the mainstream of coming to theodogs.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: That would be wrong. And so this is the comments
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: that he's making.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Could you find some dispensationalists that says that the church
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: is a summer fling? Highly unlikely anyway, but that was
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: his interpretation. Yeah, he he And at the thirty mark
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: again there's this we can we can go on and
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: I'll try to keep him. He makes this comment which
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: he says, he's talking about the horrible nature of the
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Jews and that they were judged in seventy a d.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: And he says, quote, the Romans repented and believed, but
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: unbelieving Jews started a new religon in seventy a D.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: I was lost on that one. I'm not sure what
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: he's getting at. Did you understand it? Well, yeah, my ink.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: He was trying again, he was trying to, I think,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: show that the wickedness of national Israel in that there's
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: such a contrast, because remember, we're elevating the Jews to
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: some status that he says we are. But he says, look,
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: even the Romans repented, but the Jews had to go
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: start a new religion. And I'm thinking the Romans repented.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, were I never where's that at? And especially to
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: make such a for hundreds of years, that v eampire continued.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and for two hundred some years they persecuted Christians
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: and the Domitian and others absolutely so massively killing Christians.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: And so for anybody to say, and I would never
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: do this in the sense of this group, think this
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: group repentance. The Romans repented, but those evil, wicked Jews
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: they didn't repent. They went and started a new religion.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: That I mean quote, this is a quote. The Romans
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: repented and believed, but unbelieving Jews started a new religion
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: in seventy eight.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was one of those comments by JD. Hall
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: that I would love to get clarity. I mean I
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: would have interrupted him and said, can you explain that one?
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: In what way did the Romans repent? And you know,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: give me more on that. So yeah, I mean maybe
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: maybe he would provide clarity, but they still don't agree.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: No, we still know there's no group repentance, right, it's
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: individual all the way to the Old Testament. So at
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: the thirty two mark, he says, Darby comes along and
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: says to unbelieving Jews, God is going to bless you
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: regardless of faith in Jesus because you were Jews Jewish.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: Darby said that I'd love to see that sighted. Yeah, yeah,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: quote again, this is quote people can check me.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Thirty two Darby comes along and says to unbelieving Jews,
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: God is gonna bless you, regardless of faith in Jesus
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: because you are Jewish.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with anything that could be even construed
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: that way for Derby. Now, look, we know that guys
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: like Darby and Schofield, definitely we don't agree with everything
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: they said. And one of my projects in my PhD
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: studies was to read every note from the original nineteen
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: seventeen I think it is Schofield, and then every note
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: from the nineteen fifty Wolver to Edi Wood and just
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: to see the changes. And so it was fascinating, you know. Yeah,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: there were some statements that Cee I. Schofield made that
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: were problematic and theologically speaking, and you kind of wonder
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: why was he what did he mean by that? But
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: I never heard anything from Darby or Schofield that I
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: can remember that indicated, you know what he's suggesting.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: This is yeah, this is a complete violation. John fourteen
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: six stands. If I'm the way the truth in life.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: No one comes to father except through me. That's that's
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: good for use in Gentiles. So it's hard for me
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: to believe again that Darby would say something like that.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: But again, in the midst of conversation with watching Tucker
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: and JD go back, he can say these things, yeah,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: and Tucker's like he just Tucker doesn't he's not a
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: thelogian in he shouldn't try really, and because he's that's
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: his lane. I wouldn't try to be a journalist in
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: that sense either, But he hears he's saying it, and
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: he doesn't know enough to be like Darby really said that.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but if I wanted to be a journalist, I
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: would I would want to bring on reputable journalists to
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: learn from that. Yeah, I wouldn't bring on country music
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: stars and guys like j. D. Hall or Rich Hall.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: Right, you're going back to him because he was one
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: of the first ones that started. He was speaking for well,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: he's speaking of dispensationalism going back.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I echoed the same, you know, drivel
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: the true I mean again, I'm trying to be fair here.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: I mean good for Tucker for engaging in discussions about
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: these types of things. But I'm not going to bring
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: on a country music star and an obscure, you know,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: guy who doesn't really know much about dispensationism. If I
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: want to learn about dispensationism, let's bring on someone that's
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: credentialed and represents the viewpoint acturally. You still don't have
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: to agree with it, but at least be fair. At
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: least be fair. Yeah, okay.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: So at the thirty five thirty mark, he says that
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: which is true is not new. Okay, yeah, here, So
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: here's this quote. So he has this axiom. Now this
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: is this is the axiom quote, that which is true
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: is not new, that which is new is not true.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: If someone invents a new theology, it is automatically wrong unquote.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, there goes the Reformation. Yeah,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: that's right, right? Is that the Reformation? Yet imputation, which
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: is the reformers position of the doctrine of versus few
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: of judge face versus infusion. So do we throw out
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: I mean? Is so here he's stating, like what he
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: would say is an axiomatic statement that which is true
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: it's not new, and if it's new, it's not true.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: Is that Is that an accurate statement. No, it's not
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: an accurate statement. I mean, he doesn't he doesn't really
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: give much credence at least in that statement to church history,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: because it took several hundred years for several foundational doctrines
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: taught in scripture to be sort of articulated and crystallized
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: into written form. Now, part of that was because they
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: didn't have written documents and they had circular letters and
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: you know, made it harder. But still the notion that
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: you know that which is new is not true. I mean, yeah,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: that's where in the Bible does it say that.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, and even there that's just again a false
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: standard now that you can say nothing new, because automatically
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: it's suspect.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: And the other part of that too, that he said
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: that struggling is someone comes along and makes up a
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: new doctrine. Well, that presupposes that's what happened with dispensation Yes,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: that's not what happened with dispensationism. Somebody didn't make up dispensationism.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: Dispensationism is taught in scripture the notion that God clearly
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: interacts with people in different stewardships, and in this present
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: age we have a new stewardship, which was a mystery
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: previously unknown. That's the word. It comes straight from scripture.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: We're not suggesting that Darby made it up. In fact,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: we're rejecting that false, false notion.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: And again it's the historical fallacy that you know, if
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: it's not taught in history, Well, the real question is
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: a bibbil not as the historical.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: That's one of the twenty four foundational rules of Hermoneutics
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: that I teach is that church history is significant, but
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: not determinative in Church history.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: And we said earlier that right there on that most
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: of the principles or many of the principles that are
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: found and again modern day dispensationalism were found in some
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: form by some writer in church history.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: So doesn't prove it's right right either. We only bring
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: that up because we've been forced to based on false accusations.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Then the accusation that nowhere before Darby do you find
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: any reference in church history to a two phased return
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: of Christ. Well, as a matter of fact, you find hundreds, yes, exactly.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: So we're bringing it up not because we're staking our
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: claim for accuracy on that. We believe the Bible teaches
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: that that's why we believe it. But if you're going
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: to suggest that no one ever taught it before Derby,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: well you better check your facts because it's taught repeatedly
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: before Darby.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing too, is when we look at
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: at church history, I'm not even saying no or you
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: that everybody in church history taught these things.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: Well know that the minority history is not monolithic, right,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: actually going back then, and I'm ready to I'm happy
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: to admit because it's a fact that it was the
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: minority view. But God always works in the remnant. Quite frankly,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: if I find myself on the majority of any kind
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: of view in Christianity, I'm gonna wonder I better take
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: a second law.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, So Tucker Tucker this you know it's been
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: at the forty one forty six. Mark Tucker asks why
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: England and John responds, I don't know why religious Zionism
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: took off from England, and I think have you never
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: read dispensationalism before Darby?
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: William Watson.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the entire English I would say, situation or environment
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: was very much going back to normal literal reading, and
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: so that's why it was England.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, I mean he hasn't read it.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: That's pretty obvious. He really doesn't know what dispensationism is
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: and what dispensationists believe. He just hasn't read it. You know,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: we were talking off air, you know, I I'm so
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: thankful that I you know, I got to train under
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: great teachers and learned sort of an academic way of
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: doing things. But when I did my five parts critique
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: of Calvinism, most folks know I'm not a big fan
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: of Calvinism. I was painstakingly took painstaking efforts to make
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: sure that everything I taught about what they believe on
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: the five points of Calvinism, the tulip was their own words.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: I didn't say, well, Calvinists believe this, and here's why
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: it's wrong. I said, let's hear them in their own words.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: So I gave for each of the five points ten
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: twelve slides of them defining you know, what does MacArthur
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: say the total pravities? What does Sproll think? What does
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: Piper think? What is you know, all these guys from
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: by gone eras, what do they how do they define
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: total pravity? And then I said, okay, now that we
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: know what they believe. Here's why I disagree with it.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: That's I think a better way to critique. You want
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: to bring on dispensationism, and you want to critique dispensationism,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: give it an accurate, fair standing, and then you can
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: still disagree with But these straw men are it's it's
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: really it's a shame, and shame on Tucker honestly for
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: not doing better research and for again for allowing this.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: And as we know, the the typical person out there
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: hearing this is just going to believe it.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: Oh of course they're not.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: So at the forty five mark quote, most of Christendom
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: historically doesn't allow for the belief that the Jews are
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: the chosen people of God.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: Well there again, who this is an argument from history?
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: Who cares? I mean, so that so we could say, okay, yeah,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: you're right, the Church had it wrong. Now, more of
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: history thought Roman Catholicism was the kingdom and that you
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: needed to pay money to get your sins forgiven. Yep?
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Is that thousand years?
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: I mean is that the is he going to embrace
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: the infusion justification doctor?
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: And by Rome? All right? Everything else? Most of Christendom
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: believe this.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: So see so here again he's not living up to
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: his own So I asked the question based on forty
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: six this believing in pre millennialism require us to support
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: modern Israel.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: No, not at all. In fact, yeah, see if I
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: can call up a quick quote here, yeah, no, not
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: at all. Like we said earlier, you can critique you know, Israel,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: modern Israel if and you can see God critiquing Israel
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: throughout history. They don't get a past. It's not like that.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: Everything they do is correct. So if you go to
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: in my newest book in chapter eight on the Spirit
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: of Pluralism, it's or let's see, yeah, no, this is
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: chapter six on the Spirit of persecution understanding. You know
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: the distinction, You know, I wish I could find it here,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: just you know, the the notion that just because here
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: it is. This is what I say in my new book.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: Just because I'm a dispensationist who is unapologetically pro Israel
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: does not mean I must wholeheartedly endorse a secular nation
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: that locked up seven millions of its citizens, injected them
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: with experimental gene altering drugs, and then made them show
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: their papers to visit a restaurant. Yeah, am I okay?
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: For criticizing the government of Israel for doing that. I mean,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: it was leading the world in the tyranny that came
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: a pandemic. So no, I can criticize them and still
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: be unapologetically pro Zionist and pro future for Israel.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: Because at the end of the day, what I tell
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: people is is people said, do you support Israel? I go, well, indirectly,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: I support the promises of God. Amen, That's what I support.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: That's what I stand for, that's what I'm promoting. But
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: those promises of God include again that the land belongs
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: to Israel forever and there's a future for them. It
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't ever say that they're that they just because they're
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: still chosen Romans nine, the present tense that they're that
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: they're not. My favorite passage you read it earlier is
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: in Romans eleven twenty six. It says all Israel saved,
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: and it says the deliberabill come out of design, and
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: God will remove ungodliness from Jacob. So there's it's it's
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: a there's a two pronged thing. He's gonna save this rule,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: but he's going to remove the ungodliness, which is exactly
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: what we see in the land.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Of national Israel.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: Today, we see the LGBTQ movement, we see all that
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: what you describe medical tyranny. So you know, as we
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: we we've got a long time before we go. Though,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: let's just say that listen to support Israel, we're not.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: It doesn't require us to give a past for modern
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: Israel or that that modern Israel is somehow holy and
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: righteous and true, because again it's not as as no
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: nation is. But you mentioned earlier, and he has a
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: whole section here on the Schofield Bible, okay, and he
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: was trying to to maintain that the Scofield Bible was
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: basically done by Rothschilds and secular Jews, and it's all
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: meant for this major political brainwashing of Ever, just give
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: us whatever you want to say about that, because we're
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: out of time.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's it's almost not worth commenting on.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: But it's the same arguments that we would respond to
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: his criticisms of Darby. I mean, look up, the guy
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: you know this is you know, you know you can
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: you can trace the origins of the sort of Schofield
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theory and realize that it's not it's not factual
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: as there's no substantive fact. In a court of law,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: it would be like the case would be dismissed because
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: it's just not accurate. So yeah, I know there's a
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: lot of youtubes out there. I know there's a lot
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: of you know, TikTok videos and all this stuff, people
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: saying Schofield was Rothschild's and this and that. It's just
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: simply not true and and and I take it personal because,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: first of all, you know, I had to do that
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: research on Scofield. But I was one of those young
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: people raised in the Christian family who my first Bible
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: was a Scofield reference Bible, and I learned so much
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: from him. Was he perfect? Do I agree with everything
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: he wrote in the notes?
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: But but he loved the Lord and he wanted He
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: was not a shill, he was not a huppet. He
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: genuinely studied the word of God, taught the word of God,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: and wanted people to come to faith in Jesus. So
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: I guess from a devil's that, Well, that just tells
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: me that you're biased. Yeah, well I mean.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: So, But but again I say that not because I
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: believe it.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: So how do you how do you respond to it?
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: So I would say I'm removing the bias by telling
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: you up front, Look, I have a special place in
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: my art for him, and so it bothers me when
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: people criticize him. I'm not defending him because I'm biased.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: I'm defending him based on the facts. So show me
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: the facts. Show me. Have you read every note in
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: the Scofield reference Bible? I guarantee A. JD. Hall hasn't. Yep,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: you know. Have you have you read anything Scofield has written?
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: Have you read rightly dividing the word read it. Find
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: something in him, not just Candice Owen's quote. Find something
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: from Schofield that supports your premise. You won't. You won't
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: because I've studied the guy and I and I think again,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: I'm not endorsing everything he said, but but he I
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: know his heart and and I know his history. I
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: know the people he ran with, people like James Brooks
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: and you know other turn of the century you know
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: iron h a Ironside. I mean these were guys that
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: were you know, Luis Barry Chafer, the fander for Dell seventy.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: These are guys that are godly men who really were
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: seeking to do a good thing. So yeah, I do
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: get a little emotional when people criticize Scofield, even more
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: so than Derby, because you know, Schofield, I think he
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: was a great contribution and he helped spread Bible teaching and
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: Bible conferences and start Bible colleges, and you know, people
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: can go if they want to.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: I could maybe put the link up, but the Schofield files,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: if they find those online, it unpacks and just refutes
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: this conspiracy mentality, which again is is you know, is
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: that's the that's the name of the game today is
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: people living in the conspiracy world and they don't go
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: do their homework. And so I mean, so here we are,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: I mean we we spent quite a bit of time responding.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: What any let's give some final of the thoughts. What's
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: your final thoughts?
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing I'd like to underscore because
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: as I listened to it, it went from him making
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: arguments that were wrong and that that anyone who knows
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: better would I think have had a plausible response to it.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: But yet they seemed believable, and I was kind of
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: discouraged because I'm thinking everyone listening to this is going
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: to be led astrike. It went from there to completely
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: you know, off to hilt. I mean, he was just
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, the latter part of it was just outrageously wrong.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: So I would underscore what we said sort of early on,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: and that is the notion that somehow the Church has
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: replaced Israel, or that everything made as a promise to
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: Abraham was just about Jesus, and that you know that
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: you need to go back and read the Old Testament.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: You cannot dismiss all of these detailed promises that relate
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: to national, geographic Israel that have not been fulfilled. Either
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: God's a liar, God changed his mind, neither of which
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: are possible, or we believe there's a future for national Israel.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: And so I would underscore that that it's he's got
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: a hermeneutic problem. And then I would underscore that no,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of the things he claims we're saying. We're
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: not saying yep, we're not blindly supporting modern Israel. We're
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: believing in the promises of God for Israel. And we
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: see things that have happened in the last seventy years
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: sort of relevant to that. It's like, oh, now there's
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: a land for Jesus to build a temple in and
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: rule in or whatever. Yeah.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I would encourage people to that, you know,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: check out some of Michael Vlock's work V.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: L A c. H.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: Because you know, he wrote a great article recently talking
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: about what does it mean to have problem? What does
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: it mean for prophecy to be fulfilled? And so again,
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: the typical Malena view is that it's absorbed or dissolved
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: into Jesus somehow, that the New Testament reinterprets everything you
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: would read under the Old Testament. And therefore, if we
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: just understood that it's all spiritualized or allegorized, that that's
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: why we're missing it. Where you're like, well, again, as
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: you said, and I say this often, why are we changing.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: The rules of the Roman utics in the middle of
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: the game.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: Every millennialist looks at Micah five to two in Isaiah
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: seven fourteen, and they take it straight forward. But when
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: it comes to the Second Coming or is the eleven
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: about the wolfling down with the lamb line, they say, oh,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: that's all spiritual. So they're the ones that have changed
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: the rules in a dramatic way. They'll take some of
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: the few prophecies of the First Coming that are typeo logical.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: But that's the exception, that's not the rule, and so
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: then they make it now the.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: Rule when it comes to the second coming. Yeah, and
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: that's why Rory says, going back to dispensatialism, that the
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: senequan on of dispensacialism is a consistent literal, contextual, historical
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: harmonutic because even dispensations have been guilty at times of
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: allegorized the scripture. So we're not saying we're the only
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: ones that take it literal and you don't. We're saying
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: you do take it literal sometimes, but let's be consistent.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: What justification do you have for making all of those
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: promises about the land and the kingdom and the temple allegorical?
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: Show me yep, from a hermoneutical perspective, what changed?
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: What changed in the middle of the game, and to
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: make the exception now the rule. So I just encourage everybody,
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: thanks for listening today, is that if you want to
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: know what in the world and maybe how to discuss
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: this intelligently, get Charles Robby's book Dispensationalism.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, is there any other book?
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: I mean this is of course, this is from ninety
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: five as originally in the nineteen sixties, but this was
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: his revisive, expanded book. Is there any other book that
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: you'd recommend specifically?
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I mean there's some more academic ones.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: I think I saw you reading one Essays and Honor
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: Dispensationalism or something like that. Yeah, that's a great book,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: by the way, but I think just as a good premer.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: It's a short book. It's not hard to read. No,
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: it's still in print. Dispensationalism. Let's let's hear it straight
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: from people that know what they're talking about, and then
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: go to the scripture, you know, and see if it
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: makes sense, see if what you know we're saying is true.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: The Bible's the ultimate arbiter. So we're not saying believe
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: me because I said so, but we're certainly saying, don't
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: believe what someone who hates dispensationalism. That's too hard a words.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: Don't believe a critic of dispensationism is accurate. Do your
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: own homework.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, amen, everybody, Thanks for listening today.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: JB. Where can they find information about your Yeah, not
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: byworks dot org. And you can get the new Book
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: of propsy Watchers. Has it here fade to Black. We
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: made several references to it. It's got charts at the end.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: A lot of these charts that I've talked about are there,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: so yeah, not by works dot org. All right, thanks
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: everybody for listening today, and we will catch you next time.