Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Privacy vs. Safety: The CCTV Dilemma | David Bartlett

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Privacy vs. Safety: The CCTV Dilemma | David Bartlett · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Approach production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanna.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: I'm your host, Adam shan Let's talk about surveillance CCTV
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: in particular. It's estimated the average Australian inurban areas passes
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: under the gaze of seventy five cameras every day. It's
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: become a given that surveillance technologies permeate every aspect of
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: our lives, whether we like it or not.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: China now has the largest surveillance network on Earth, with
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: more than half of the world CCTV cameras watching its citizens.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: It's a global phenomenon.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: Look at China, They've got more than fifty percent of
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: all the surveillance cameras in the world, about thirty four
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: cameras per one thousand people.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: But Australian cities are catching up.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, Sydney had four point sixty seven
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: surveillance cameras per thousand residents, with Melbourne close behind with
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: two point one three.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: You do hear a lot of complaints about the impact
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: on privacy from this blanket coverage. That is, until someone
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: goes missing and then the cameras provide key evidence that
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: tells the story.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Then you'll see police appeal.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: For CCTV to help them piece together the key moments.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: We're asking the public to review their CCTV or doorbell
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: cameras for any footage that may help us locate the
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: missing woman. Precious time is spent gathering this footage. What
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: if all those cameras were linked in a network that
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: allowed police to follow the path of an offender or
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: a missing person. How many lives would be saved? How
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: many crimes would be self?
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Go to China.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: It's impossible to commit a crime there, You'll be on camera.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: So how far do we want to go with this?
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: What are we prepared to accept in terms of perceived
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: loss of privacy, in terms of making our streets more safe?
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: This is the dream of one form of Victoria Police
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: officer David Barbert, who's building just such a network called
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: the Safer Places Network. To welcome David to the program, gooday,
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: how I very well, thanks thanks for having me. We
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: could have a crime free society right now if we
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: grasp the metal around linking our cameras and putting more
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: I guess where.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Are we now? How much are we prepared to accept?
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: And what's your mission?
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: That's a lot in that actual had an interesting meeting
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: yesterday with the previous Commonwealth Privacy Commissioner, Angeline Folk, and
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: she was saying a lot of this surveillance technology and
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: the way we accepted his context driven and facial recognition
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: is currently in the press, and think as a society
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: we have to accept that surveillance is part of our lives.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: He just said that we pass seventy five cameras on
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: the way to work every day. We're installing them otselves.
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: I mean, we're putting cameras in our houses. We've got
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: cameras on our phones. People use face ID to open
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: their phones every day, so we're kind of already using
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: it organically. But I think from a crime fighting perspective,
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: the struggle is that law enforcement agencies can't keep up
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: with technology, and I think that's our main gap. I
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: think in the private sector. You know, we've got amazing
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: tech even here today for our interview, and I think
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: the police just don't know what's happening in the private
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: sector and they need to catch up.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, really important point. Let's roll back.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: September twenty twelve, Jill mar goes missing Sydney Road, Brunswick,
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: that case was sold with The breakthrough came because of
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: one CCTV camera at the Bridal shop which pictured Adrian
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: Ernest Bailey, her abductor and murderer, speaking to her, which
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: then set off an investigative trails.
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: But on that's my number one case study. It took
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: eighty five hours to get that footage into the hands
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: of police, and I think we were lucky in that
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: case because Jill Maher being a journalist and her network
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: of media contacts that accelerated the exposure in social media
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: and her Facebook page this twenty twelve gained I think
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: it was twelve thousand followers in about twenty four hours,
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: and that led to what I believe the Dutchess Britique
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: owner submitting that footage to police. So my mission is
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: to bring it from eighty five hours to eighty five minutes.
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: And I've said this even as recently as yesterday at
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: a breakfast I presented at when her husband first reported
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: her missing at two am on the twenty second of September.
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: If my network had have been in place at that time,
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: the watchhouse keeper taking the missing person report could have
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: requested the footage from the Duchess boutique owner immediately and
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: potentially even got a print out of a CCTV still
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: of Adrian walking past Durr walking past and even presented
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: that to her husband and said, do you see your
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: wife in any of this footage? And that could have
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: brought everything to a hold right then and there.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Because the technology was pretty critical in that case.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: Critical we saw also the I think was the toll
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: gantry picking up Bailey's car linked to him known sex offender.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: He becomes a suspect.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: But it's just skeletal, just little patches of light here
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: and there in that case. And you wonder if that
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: case happened today, are things much different? I saw a
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: story recently where a email was reflecting on the fact
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: that in that ten or twelve years since Jill Mar's
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: abduction of murder, are we any safer?
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Do you think we are?
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: Are we getting closer to the kind of coverage you
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: think will make us safer?
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: Probably got a mixed response to that. I use that
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: case study because my argument is things haven't changed enough
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: in my opinion, you know, my first initial thoughts around
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: using that as a case study for our business wash
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: but it's fairly dated. But I thought, hang on a second,
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: if this happened again today, what would actually be different.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: I think there'd be more cameras. I think there might
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: have been more footage available sooner. But I also think
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: that there's a chance, it's a strong chance that the
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: footage from that particular shop could still take eighty five
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: hours to get into the hands of police today.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Right, because I'm not quite sure how this goes. I
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: understand they go along and try to find where the
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: cameras are. Are they walking the streets looking for the
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: little blue lights or what are they doing?
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we estimate that police spend anywhere from two to
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: four hours per investigation just looking for where the cameras are.
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: There's many hours spent after that trying to actually access
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: the footage. So at the moment police door knock, they
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: walk the streets, They walk the streets of shops or residents,
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: depending on where the offense occurred. That's if they even
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: have the time to do that. We know that Victoria
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: Police in particular is extremely stretch, with resources, morales pretty low.
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: They've got a new chief commissioner, there's a restructure planned,
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: They're already under a huge amount of stress. And I
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: remember when I was a detective or even a young
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: connie in uniform that if you don't have avenues of inquiry,
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: you write a file off, so you have to look
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: for avenues inquiry. If you don't have any, you can
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: write the file off and the sergeant approves it and
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: the file just gets closed or unsolved. So if police
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: can argue that they don't have time to go on
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: door knock, they'll just write cases off. And we know
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: that over sixty percent of crimes in Australia go unsolved.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: So what this network plans to do is actually increase
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: the closure rate of investigations. So it may not even
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: increase police time, but it might actually solve more crimes.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Police budgets are stretch beyond breaking points. They can't even
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: fill jobs that they have the struggle in this technological
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: arms race. Yeah, what is the value proposition that you're
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: presenting to them?
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: It's interesting I presented this to Victoria Police earlier this
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: year and I said, well, it's looking likely it could
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: save your members around a million hours a year of
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: personnel time. And I won't say who I was talking to,
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: but the response from them was, well, there's some costs anyway,
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: because they have to employ the staff. So is it
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: really inefficiency. I'm like, oh, yes, it is because they
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: can be redeployed. So I think there's this mentality that
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: unless it's an extraordinarily clear ROI, they find it hard
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: to wrap their head around because they have to employ
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: the stuff anyway. But my argument is they're constantly pushing
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: for new recruits and new recruitment campaigns and new police.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: But if they make the current police more efficient, of
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: course that would avoid them having to hire another four
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: hundred recruits.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Well, so they can't find anyway.
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's a whole other challenge. Yeah, whole other challenge.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: I mean that response to me tells me why they're
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: not economists working for the Reserve Bank and they're police
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: officers and in the hierarchy Victoria Police is slow.
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: Yes it is. It is And I worked in the
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: IT area of vic Pol for a year in twenty
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: nineteen and it was a hard slog. They're not a
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: tech company, you know, They're a law enforcement agency. And
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: I think this is where New Zealand Police has done
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: really well because they and Mike Bush and your chief
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: commissioner here in Melbourne has come from New Zealand Police.
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: They've got a long history of working very closely with
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: the private sector, so they're willing to engage companies like
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: ours that are small startups or private business that are
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: doing things really well. They bring them into the tent.
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: So how can we work together. I think what we're
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: guilty of in Australia is we go after the big
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: four consultancy, we go after Microsoft and all these big
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: tech companies, and I just think they're as slow moving
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: as the organizations are, so I think from a technology perspective,
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: they just don't really get it.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: This is a big dream and it's twofold.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: You've got to persuade businesses, individuals, companies whatever to come
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: on board, and then for police to now accept this
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: network and become a part of it.
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: Where are you at great question? I consider it that
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: we're trying to raise all boats at once. You know,
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: I'm getting feedback from members of our network saying what
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: are the success stories from police? And I'm getting feedback
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: from police saying why don't you have more cameras on
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: the network and more people on the network. And so
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to just incrementally grow both audiences at the moment.
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: It's going to take some time, but I'm very closely
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: partnered with Neighborhood Watch Victoria A. Neighborhood Watch is an
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: institution that we know has been around for decades, but
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: they are very underresourced. They're very passionate, but very underresourced.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: They get a lot less money from the government than
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: crime stoppers do. They are predominantly staffed by volunteers sixty
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: five seventy year old plus, so they are not as
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: great technology and what's going on with social media, so
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: Neighborhood Watch is really struggling. But I still think they
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: are an important part of our crime prevention ecosystem. And
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: I hope that Mike Bush, the new chief, sees that
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: because I know he's been briefed by Neighborhood Watch But
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: they've been a great partner of ours in just getting
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: the word out at a grass its level amongst community.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: Social media has also been good for us. But what
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: I'm really looking for is what I call enterprise contributors,
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: people like will Worth's Coals had to mean with monash
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: Unity the other day. Monash Uni has about five thousand
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: cameras across Melbourne across their seven campuses so I'm looking
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: for these multipliers that I can have one contact, but
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: thousands of cameras come on to the network, so that's
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: a bit easier than trying to get five thousand households
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: onto the network. Takes a bit longer. Yeah, sad reality.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: Money drives everything it does, so you've got to build
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: a business of sufficient scale to make this work.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Big task.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: It is unfortunate that I've got fifteen years of networking
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: from law enforce in both state and federal. So I
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: worked with the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission for seven years,
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: so I've got links into the AFP, I've got links
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: into most states, and I'm starting to leverage some of
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: those connections. I think if you're starting from scratch outside
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: of the law enforce industry, you'd find it a lot
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: more difficult. But I'm able to open doors to commissioners
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: pretty much in everything state and that's what I'm doing
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: at the moment, so that's a bit of an accelerating
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: factor for me. I've got some early investment, which is great,
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: but that's probably giving me a six month runway before
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: I get revenue. So another major part of our model
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: is helping with retail crime. So retail crime, as we
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: know is that it's worst ever in Victoria at the moment.
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: We also know that Victoria has more retail crime than
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: all the other states and territories combined at the moment,
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: and that it's hurting small businesses and meetium businesses and.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Large businesses shoplifting basically.
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: Shoplifting, but also threats to staff and harassment that is
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: through the roof at the moment as well. And I
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: think that's driven by just a living crisis. Could be
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: interest rates, could be people losing their jobs. They just
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: take it out on the local checkout person. And that's
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: a sad reality for a lot of retail workers. And
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: as we know, a lot of those workers are gen z,
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: they're younger, they're new to the workforce. Getting spat on
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: or slapped or hit or worn out is not part
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: of the job description.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: And we saw this during COVID. I had a friend
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: working i can say office works, and what she was
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: bringing home stories of people trying to steal things and
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: when they were caught, they were bashing staff and there
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: were some really serious injuries. And the cameras provided an
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: audit trail, an evidentiary trail in those cases, so it's
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: really important. I did a book a number of years
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: ago on the Kangaroo Gang shoplifters who went to Britain
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: in the sixties and robbed and stealed the way across there,
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: and the study that I did on that revealed the
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: fact that the staff were the champion robbers.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: They're working with.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: So again for your big organizations to be able to
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: link and because the staff know where the camera's are,
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: they know how things operate.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: So that's another frontier.
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the larger retailers are pretty good at
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: keeping an eye on that, but as you kind of
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: go down from enterprise down to medium and small businesses,
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: it's very hard to keep track of that. They don't
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: have the systems in place, they don't have CCTV, they
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: don't have lost prevention offices or security staff. There's kind
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: of this market that we're looking at anyway, where the
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: small and medium retailers that can't afford more sophisticated loss
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: prevention tools can work with us and we can support
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: them through some crime recording and incident recording tools that
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: we've got using WhatsApp and some other technology. And then
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: what the benefit of all we do is that For example,
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: if something happens, say a small IDA supermarket, and next
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: door to the IDA there might be a bakery and
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: optometrist and maybe a mechanic. If all of those businesses
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: are on our network, whether they have CCTV or not,
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: if something happens at the IDA, those other businesses get
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: alerted immediately. And that's a gap in our current crime
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: reporting ecosystem in Australia where if you report something to
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: the police, the police don't then go and tell the
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: neighbors that it's happened, Or if you report something to
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: crime stoppers, that doesn't immediately tell anyone in your suburb
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: that that's occurred. So if you see it suspicious of
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: out outside your house and tell crime stoppers, unless you've
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: got a WhatsApp group with your neighbors, they don't know
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: that you've made that report. So how do you keep
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: your local community safe? And that was the me of
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: Neighborhood Watch when it started, and I think we've lost that.
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: We've lost that localized support for each other at a
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: suburb level or a street level. And I've heard countless
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: stories of WhatsApp groups being set up, but there's nothing
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: more sophisticated than that, and our systems like neighborhood Watch
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: and crime stoppers and police reporting, none of that's caught up.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: That's all still stuck decades ago.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: I've worked a lot in Africa and in particularly We've
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: got our place in Zimbabwe and we're quite remote and
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: the only security we have is that WhatsApp group and
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: two way radios. The police are miles away, So there
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: has to be a self reliance. We're getting a bit
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: too civilized here, aren't we. We live it to somebody else. Yeah,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: nothing to see here. Let's go back to my job
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: and my family whatever else. Do you think there's got
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: to be I guess some re engagement on those sort
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: of neighborhood watch vatues, but with technology one.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: Hundred percent, it's exactly what it is. A neighborhood watch
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: tagline is looking out for each other. And I think
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: when you start doing that, And I heard Chris Costas
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: talk recently at Frankston at a neighborhood Watch event. He
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: started neighborhood Watch back in the seventies, I think, and
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: he was saying that exact thing. It's like, we've got
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: to get back to those basic levels of looking out
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: for each other. I think we have become a bit lazy.
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: I mean an example of being lazy is that I
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: think it's something like seventy percent of burglaries the houses
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: are unlocked, so people aren't locking their doors. It's such
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: a simple thing. And I heard a police officer tell
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: me recently at a community event, someone stood up after
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: the police had finished talking and said, oh, my house
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: got broken into last week, and you know, a bit
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: angry at the police. And the police said was the
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: house locked? And he goes, oh, no, it wasn't. So
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: I'm like, well you have to. There's an element of
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: self responsibility in this, but also an element of localized
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: community support because these big organizations like the police agencies
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: are it's too big and slow moving and they've got
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: a lot on their plate. They can't be there to
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: drive that community spirit, which is what neighbor would watch
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: started out.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've just got bad flashbacks of being a rob
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: five times at our place here in Melbourne that have
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: fourth time the same police officer and he says, your
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: window was open again? Might lock your windows? I turn
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: them all life.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: Exactly, So look, we are guilty of just missing those
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: things as humans, because you know, life gets ahead of us.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: But and again, education is a key part of that.
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: And with police, I kind of I know Mike Bush
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: and the new chief commissioner, he thinks crime prevention is key,
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: and I certainly agree with him. But I kind of think, well,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: police is a law enforcement agency. They're kind of doing
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: the tail end of it. Who's doing the education and
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: actual crime prevention work? Because you've got crime stoppers that
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: are a reporting portal essentially, and then you've got a neighborhood
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: watch which is really strong in education. I kind of
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: don't know where police sit with that education piece. Like
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: I just feel like police are they to kind of
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: clean up the mess?
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: Well, they're just reactive the Yeah, I think they're struggling
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: and we're seeing we live in the year of aggravated burglaries.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: We're young men usually breaking it at homes and getting
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: the keys and taking the car for a jolly down
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: the freeway and drawing all those police.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: Resources in there. Sometimes they catch themselves, so they don't.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: But I guess under your scenario, you'd be able to
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: track that vehicle through the cameras, through the street. I mean,
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: I'm getting visions of the movies where the guys and
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: the black skivvas are there where the big screen, and
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: they're following and they're switching between cameras all the way
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: through the network.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: That's what's your sort of dreaming of.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: Isn't it looks that's very long term. I think one
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: of the issues we'll have there is connecting to residential cameras.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: That's not something that we currently do, and it's not
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: connecting from a technical sense. I mean, so having a
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: world where we can just dip into someone's Ring camera
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: or Google camera, I think that's a long way down
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: the track. The US are testing it a little bit
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: in some areas with Ring because Rings are owned by Amazon.
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: They've got a big tech They linked into some police systems,
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: especially with the Human Rights Charter here in Victoria. There's
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: so many privacy and ethical considerations to go into a
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: system like that. Even if we had all of the
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: locations recorded of where cameras were, and an efficient way
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: of speaking to the owners of all of those cameras,
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: that would drastically increase closure rates of investigations. And that's
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: what we're doing right now. So I think of it
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: as a job. Rolodex of names and locations and where
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: cameras are. And my system has like a Google map,
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: It's like Google for CCTV, show me where the cameras
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: are in Brighton and it comes up. You click notify
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: and it notifies all those camera owners by SMS and email.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: So they all get a little texts saying Victoria Police
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: have asked you to check your footage over the last
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: hour looking for a red van. So that happens within
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: an instant. It could even happen from trip low as
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: soon as the call comes in. So even that in itself,
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: without a technical connection to the cameras, that in itself
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: you could see the footage coming in getting uploaded within
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: the next ten minutes from residents. Even that would be
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: a huge, huge win. And that avoids the ethical privacy
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: considerations of police remote accessing into someone's camera, because that's
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: a lot more tricky because people think that we're going
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: to spy on them and that kind of thing. But
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: if people are notified, they're given the option to cooperate.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: And that's what our system is so important that they
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: are given the option to upload footage and cooperate if
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: they feel comfortable doing so.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, democracy and privacy very inconvenient these situations.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: But of course everyone.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Wants it to be rolled out one hundred percent when
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: they need it, yes, But mostly they're not prepared to
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: buy into it. And I think this is it becomes
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: a political issue as much as a policing one as well.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: Or do you see a willingness to use the China
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: example before? You don't want to be a crooked in
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: China anymore because they will get on to you really
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: quickly and you will be found. I mean the level
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: of facial recognition software in the cameras and the ability
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: to create a perimeter away from the crime scene and
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: work their way back in and you will be caught.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, law and.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Order is always a big thing in our state elections.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: We hear it every time that the crooks run the
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: streets and so forth. We've got to put the fearback
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: in the crooks. But are we really prepared to do
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: what our technology allows us to do already?
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: I guess that's what I'm testing right now, and I
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: think it's going to be an interesting social experiment. I
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: mean I showed it to an assistant commissioner yesterday Victorian Police,
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: and she was quite shocked that so many people had
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: voluntarily registered, and I was like, well, it's indicating a
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: willingness to get involved in something like that. And you know,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: we've gone to great lengths to be clear that when
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: we don't have remote access to cameras, it's all voluntary.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: You've opted into this system, and you still have the
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: option to cooperate or not cooperate with the police. And then, strangely,
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: only a few weeks ago, one of our users directed
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: police to us, and police came to us and said, oh,
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: this person said that she's on the network and can
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: you just get the footage for us. So even this
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: member of our network thought we had remote access to
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: her cameras, and she'd signed up under that premise, which
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: is wrong because we don't have remote access to our cameras.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: She thought we did, and she still signed up. So
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: I've actually got people signing up that think we already
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: do have remote access. So I think it is a
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: bit of a social experiment. And that's why talking to
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: the Privacy Commissioner yesterday was interesting because as a privacy commissioner,
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: how do you make these giant decisions about what society
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: thinks about surveillance? And what society thinks about facial recognition,
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: and she said it's context driven and it has to
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: be proportionate. And proportionate is a big word that happens
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: in police with self defense and what people are talking
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: about castle law and their houses and protecting their homes.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: Sovereigns yes, kind of sovereign citizen. But people are saying
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: I want the right to protect my family and my
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: home and fight back if someone breaks in. Well, the
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: law already protects them. So I yell at the TV
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: pretty regularly about this because and social media, because I
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: see these comments come in and people saying I want
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: to be able to bash the crook when they kick
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: my door in. I'm like, you can bash the crook
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: when you're already protected under law, as long as it's proportionate.
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: If you kick the crap out of them and they're
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: on the ground and you keep going, that's when you
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: break the law. But if someone comes in with a machete,
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: you are allowed to use leader force to protect you
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: and your family because you're under fear of being killed.
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: That's proportionate and they are protected. And I think I
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: don't think police really advertise that fact very well because
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: people are saying they want this castle law and you
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: should be able to somehow do something else to protect
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: your family. But if someone's coming at me and my family,
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: I'll do whatever I need to do to stop them.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: I'm all a view that most people are unprepared for
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: these situations. Can't use their firearms or their or their
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: knives and things, and the best thing they could do
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: is jump over the back fence.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: And get out and make distance. And when aught that
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: as a young police officer, distance is the number one
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: savior and I completely agree. But getting back to surveillance,
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: it has to be proportionate. And Kmart recently got a
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: whack for using facial recognition cameras without making people aware
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: they were using them. Bunning's had the same issue, and
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: one of the things they ran into was they couldn't
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: prove that the facial recognition software was going to stop
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: enough crime. Basically it was a little bit too much
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: of a luxury for them. In the Privacy Commissioner's opinion.
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: The current Privacy commissioner, so what our system is doing, Yes,
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: it's kind of connecting the surveillance network, but like you've
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: said throughout this the amount of crime we could solve.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: Any amount of harm we could reduce is significant. So
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: that's where the proportionality comes into it. The surveillance is large,
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: where the impact is large, and that's where I think
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: the community could come on the journey because they know
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: or the impact has been demonstrated or proven that if
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: they do get involved, yes, he will be sixty percent
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: safer than you are now walking at night.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: What's right.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: I think the often CCTV is a great post crime tool.
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: Yes, see what happened.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: But I think in the case of our aging population,
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: with the elderly people leaving hospitals, leaving nursing homes, often
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: with dementia and so forth, and the clock is ticking,
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: people perish in these situations. We're already seeing police forces
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: trying to get into this space by doing geolocation of
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: messages and so forth and things. And I can see
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: your system being something that could be used in real
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: time to say, check your camera right now, as an
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: elderly person could have walked past.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: One hundred percent. And I actually use that case study
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: sometimes as well, and I do have I think I
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: have two missing person detectives signed up using the system
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: at the moment with Victoria Police, which is great. So yeah,
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: that's the use case that people are surprised to hear
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: because they forget that police are often used for that
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: exact scenario. And when I worked at PRAWN, I do
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: remember a story of an elderly woman going missing from
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: her Windsor flats and I found her sitting at a
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: bus stop in her ninety and it's when sat next
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: to her and said hello you Mavis whatever her name was,
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: and had a lovely chat with her, and then I
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: took a home. And this happens all the time in
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: the community. Don't realize how often that happens. But yeah,
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: our network could potentially just see the whole path of
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: someone leaving their residents, walking down the street and ending
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: up in a park, so you could find someone within
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: two hours just sitting ashore.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: And we've seen situation with the autistic children as well, yep,
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: who have allegedly disappeared from a property. I need to
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: be found later on in the property, often in danger
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: when if you could establish a perimeter, but all the
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: cameras in the area.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: There's no ingress or regress. That's also a real time use.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: That's exactly right, and I think I think I know
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: that police already love this tool because, like I've said earlier,
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: they don't have time to dawn off. They would love
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: to if that all the time in the world, they
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: would send twenty cops out, dawn off every property, get
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: every piece of footage and find the missing person or
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: the missing child immediately. You don't join the police force
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: not to solve crime or not to find missing people.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: You wanted to do the best thing, best job you can.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: But especially in Victoria, you know they're under a huge
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: amount of strain. So having a tool weakness, open up
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: a map and get it all. I mean, it's a
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: no brainer in my opinion, and even me as a
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: community member, I want police using this like regardless of
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: the fact that I'm running the business and it's a
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: commercial entity, I want police using it. It's just been
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: heartwarming to see the support from community, from organizations. I
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: think I'm yet to hear anyone really have a problem
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: with what I'm doing, and I think that comes down
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: to the fact that it's a voluntary network. If you
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: don't want to be involved, there'll always be a portion
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: of the community that doesn't want to cooperate with police,
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: and you know that was some of the early feedback
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: I got from Victoria Police again was that you're not
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: ever going to have everyone on the network, And I said,
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: well that's fine, but you also don't have everyone's fingerprints,
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: and you also don't have everyone's DNA, So how's that
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: working out for you? Like, it's all part of it's
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: all avenues of inquiry, and at least with our system
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: you can say, well, along this street we've got ten houses,
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: five are registered. I can say we five aren't. So
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: with the limited resources you do have, howbout we go
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: after the houses that aren't registered instead of door knocking
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: your ten. So I'm like, there's all these all these examples.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, back to the Jill mar example. Yes, one camera,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: a couple of cameras made all the difference.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: And you think about what's an acceptable level of voluntary
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: inclusion in this system would.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Make a huge difference.
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: Doesn't have to be blanket, as you say, It could
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: be one camera that makes a difference. I'm speaking to
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: the Bedfordshire Police in London in two weeks and I
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: got an email from my contact over there and there
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: was a synagogue attack that just happened in Manchester. I
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: think and I got sent the latest media and it
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: was a ring camera that captured the offender's car going
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: past a house and a hubcap was missing on the car.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: And apparently that was a critical piece of evidence to
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: confirm the identity of that offender. And that just came
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: from a tiny ring camera on someone's front door and
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: it saw a cargo past four minutes before the attack happened,
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: and for whatever reason, I don't know the full story,
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: but that was a critical piece of eviden It's the
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: same as Jill Mar and that's innocuous two hundred dollars
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: doorbell camera on someone's front door, and the Dull Mar
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: example is it's casing point for me, It really is.
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: And what's interesting is that that was an internal camera.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: That was a camera actually inside and I use the
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: screenshot all the time and we all it's probably all
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: ingrained in our memory. It was an internal store camera
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: looking at their front door. You can even see annequins
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: and stock. It's a camera that traditionally you wouldn't think
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: would be of any value and walking past, even as
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: doing a canvas as a police officer, you could look
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: into that store and not see it. Because some of
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: these stores have quite discrete cameras for obvious reason, for
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: Robby's reasons, but sometimes they're quite overt. But as an
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: investigator might well pass looking the store, I can't see
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: any cameras, so you actually write that address off and
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: go no cameras. So on your log you say there's
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: no cameras found at the Dutchess Boutique. Wrongly there was
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: a camera. So that kind of thing is dangerous. And
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: again even whether can impact to this if there's been
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: an incident in someone's street and it's pouring with rain
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: and you're not going to get a team of police
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: going out there and door knocking au So notify all
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: the houses by SMS and by email perfect and they
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: could be able to see. So they could be in
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: the Greek Islands having a cocktail, get a notification from us.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: Can you see Checkie Cameron's for a red cargoing past.
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: They could approve all of that from anywhere in the world.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: One of my great heroes in policing was the former
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: Chief commission Victoria mic Miller. He's to talk about the
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: fact that in a totalitarian society, the police for the
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: instrument of totalitarianism and equally when it's working right, police
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: work with the.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Assent of the community appeals principles. If you go back
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: to you let those the acntemts.
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that set me right back. Yeah.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, you know, you are just the community in
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: a uniform doing what the community wants. And we've had
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: a bit of a drift away from some of those principles,
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: and people want to live compartmentalized lives, but away from
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: their social responsibilities. And I think what you're talking about
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: is fundamental to reviving some of those vibes.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I suspect you're going to spend a lot of time
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: talking to politicians.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I was only talking to someone about that yesterday.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: I've tried to avoid it a full experience.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I teach them fans for about two seconds like mine.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: I think, yes, it's inevitable. And I was told very
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: early on that this would end up being a political
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: hot potato at some point in your way, and it
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: hasn't quite hit that yet. I've had opportunities to speak
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: with some ministers which I haven't activated yet because I'm
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: just trying to refine my message for that because it's
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: the thing I have to do very carefully.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: How did this come out of your police and career.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: Why did you join the police in the first place,
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: and did you see yourself ending up in this place?
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Sure you didn't.
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: You mentioned a missing child earlier. I made a very
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: early decision to join the police force when I was
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: about six. You might remember this. A little boy went
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: missing at Tidle River in Wilson's prom in the late eighties.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: He was a young autistic boy. I think he was nine.
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: He went missing on a walk with his family. Police
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: came down his es did a search. We were staying
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: there at the time as a family. I was about six,
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: and there's a famous photo of me sitting in the
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: air wing tropper at Tidle River and big beaming smile
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: on my face. And I think that might have been
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: when I decided to join the police.
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: The hild Brand fam yes, nine year old Patrick Hildebrand
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: went missing in nineteen eighty seven while in a family
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: bushwalk at Wilson's Promontory in Victoria. Patrick, who was mildly autistic,
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: when ahead of the family and was never seen again
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: despite a massive search.
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: I think that was my earliest memory, and my family
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: got me a little cut down uniform and I had
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: a hat after all that, and then.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: You got to send me a picture of that You've
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: got somewhere.
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I've one. I was actually sitting it in front
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: of my TV at home, cut down the old ceremonial
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: cap when I was just when I got back from
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: Wilson's prom when I realized I wanted to be a cop.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I went into technology. I got sucked into
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: tech in the late nineties. Started a business when I
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: was sixteen, building websites in nineteen ninety eight. So I've
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: always been kind of that minded that I want to
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: use tech for good. And when I left Union did
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: a tech degree. I left Union, worked in I create
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: another business for two and a half years, again building websites,
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: but I left that to join the police force because
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: I wanted more, and ironically that's the recruitment campaign at
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: the moment, built for more. But I didn't see any
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: social impact in what I was doing. And I often
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: joke about websites. I was just changing different shades of orange.
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: I'm like, why am I doing this? What purpose? There's
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: got to be more to life than this. I saw
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: a friend who was in the job and I'm like,
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: hang on a second, if he can do it, I
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: can do it. And then I set back all these
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: memories from when I was a kid, and then yeah,
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: I had a few sleepless nights and joined the police
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: force two thousand and five on the van. On the van,
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: How was that interesting? I was lucky. I went to
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: transit for the first year, so when I joined, we
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: didn't actually have PSOs. It was a few years before
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: PSOs came in, so I had an interesting first year.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: I was on trains, riding up and down train lines,
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: and we had cars at different stations, so i'd play
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: close playing clothes. About three months in, but initially in uniform,
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: and then I got into a specialist department where I
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: was chasing people who were wanted on warrants, and that's
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: where I got my taste of catching crooks. Yeah, less
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: than six months out, I was stoked.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: I went and found a woman who did not want
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: to be found out and a weird caravan park out
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: in Yarrow Junction somewhere really did not want to be
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: found found her. I found another guy who we'd been
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: wanted for over two years, I think, and I found
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: out he needed methadone, and I think we still have
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: the methodone program where you've got a register to get
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: methadone from a pharmacy. And I'm like, well, that makes sense.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: So I spoke to the methadone registry. Basically, I said
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: is this person registered? And they said yes. I said,
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: where does he pick up his methodone? Where's the authorized pharmacy?
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: And I was in Corfield. So I went to the
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: pharmacy and they keep a log of everyone that comes
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: in to collect their methadone. I said, when does this
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: person generally come in to collect and they said, you know,
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: every Tuesday between ten and twelve. So we just hung
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: outside the pharmacy. The next Tuesday from nine point thirty,
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: sure enough walks past with a hatt and Sunny's on
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: and we just jumped on him. And I thought, that's awesome.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: And that was six months after graduating, And yeah, I
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: just got a real taste for that.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Excuse the part drug uses us certainly creatures of habit.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank god in that in that scenario, I didn't
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: change his routine, but yeah, I love that. And then
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: on the van a year later in two thousand and
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: six at Paran, that was an experience. Loved it. Chappel Street,
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: the hospitality scene and had everything in brand. But he
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: loved that and then did some attempts at Bona, the
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: Arm Crime Task Force at box Hill, wrote at Borundara
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: for a little while and then went to the Regional
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: Response Unit in two thousand and nine for two years
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: that was in the city, so we're basically drug unit.
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: Everything we did was structs. But that introduced me to
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: the world of telephan intercepts surveillance. Absolutely loved that. I
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: had a sergeant who's exim robbery squad back in the day,
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: John Kerno. He was a great sergeant, very gung ho,
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: got us into everything, big jobs Johnny as we used
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: to call him. He was my great sergeant at the time.
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I got introduced to televihon interceptions s falance
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: and that's where I loved that because that was a
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: really good hybrid of my tech background and my love
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: of law enforcement. So listening to people's phones and understanding
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: how phones are tracked around the mobile network was fascinating.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: And back to Jill mar that was a key part
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: of that investigation as well, was tracking his phone as
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: it headed up to Gisbon. Loved the exposure of that
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: and That was fantastic. I got my first detectives stop
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: at the Stadi Intele Division under Stuart Bateson, and he
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: was legend of.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: The Paranotas sports. There were gangline war. Yeah.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I've stayed in touch and I didn't always.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Get on Please give him my bed, tell him, you know,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: let bygones be by gone.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: He was wonderful because they want listen to my calls
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: with Carl Williams and it was completely infuriating because there
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: I was, jolly and Carl Williams along, you know, it
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: was a thought in this side and I just cecerely apologize.
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: I'll tell him. Yeah, it was great learning from him
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: as a young detective. Neil Patterson was the AC at
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: the time. I'm still good friends with Neil as well.
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: He's now obviously left the police force, but did two
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: years there. It stayed in tele division and that was fascinating.
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: That's probably a whole other story. But I had portfolios,
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: so I wasn't investigating crime. I was investigating themes. So
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: one of my themes was environmental terrorism, so it was
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: my job to actually go out and befriend protesters. So
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time in Gippsland with forestry
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: protesters literally sitting around a campfire just trying to understand undercover.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: No they knew I was police. Yeah, yeah, so strange,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: But I got.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: That kind of persona to be honest that where people
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: would say, why am I telling.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: You all this?
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: It's very funny you say that because that My wife
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: gives me a lot of stick about that. But people
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: tell me to say that exact thing all my life.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: They always have.
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I am.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: And the next part of the story is that when
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: I went to the FED, so I became a full
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: time human source handler, so we call them case managers.
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: But I spent three years managing some of the most
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: high risk international human sources on the planet in conjunction
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: with the DEA and FBI, Homeland Security, NCAA, And obviously
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: I can't talk about a lot of it, but that
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: was some of the most fascinating years of my life.
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: My wife and friends might say otherwise, because I couldn't
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: go anywhere without taking phone calls. I had a gun
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: with me all the time, had a car laptop, I
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: had five phones. At one point, I had three different wallets,
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: had all kinds of stuff and that was fascinating, fascinating
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: part of my career.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: The one at an end.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: It's another good question. I spent about eighteen months in
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Canberra on promotion into different areas. I worked on a
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: national biometric system back to facial recognition. I was called
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: up to give operational support to a system that NEC
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: was building for facial recognition nationally, and all of my
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: promotional opportunities longer term were in Canberra. Then I had
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: young kids and I just was not in a position
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: to move to Canberra, so I went back to vic Pole,
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: just temporarily as a senior IT manager there in the
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: surveillance area. And then my wife got a little bit
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: ill and I had to resign from Big Pole to
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: help run her company. And that's what I've been doing
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: all through COVID, and that's why I'm probably back into
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: this now, because she's better and the company's fine, and
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: I can get back into law enforcement again from the
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: other side of the fence, other side.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: Because like, you're the kind of officer who Vic Pole
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: would would cry tears of blood to lose fifteen years
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: of investment in you, all the high tech, all the
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: experience all that great stuff and you walk out the door.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I actually spoke to someone very similar to me
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: who has just gone off sit long term sickly from
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: vic Pole and that's exactly how I would describe him.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: A huge loss for Victoria Police. And yeah, he's a
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: perfect example of someone they really should have not let
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: slip through their fingers. And it's happening really regularly. I
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: was having a conversation with the New Zealand police officer
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: a couple of days ago, and she's only a year
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: into the job in New Zealand, but she's struggling with
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: the culture there and things. And I said, well, she
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: said the same thing. You know, people tell me things
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: that they don't know why they're telling me. I said, perfect,
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: stick with the job, look for an intel job, look
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: for a human sauce job. Like you love being in
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: the police, but maybe you're not suited for uniform Not
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: everyone's suited for general duties policing. That's not everyone's vibe.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: So when I told her about my career, she was
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: just like, oh my god, I hadn't thought about that.
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: And I said, give the dedicated source unit a call
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: and see if there's tempts you can do, see if
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: there's courses you can do that. Softer side of policing
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: isn't a weakness. And you know, whenever I spoke to crooks,
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: i'd remove the table. It's the old probably Stewart bateson
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: a homicide investigation style. I picked that up very early.
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: Get the table out of the way, move the chairs
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: next to each other, like all of that really subtle stuff.
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: And I loved that. And I got my first human
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: source when I was a prans it would have been
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: two thousand and six, as a young kid. He was
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: drug dealing at the Love Machine. We picked him up.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: He was just trying to move counterfeit currency through the
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: nightclub and we picked him up and charged him. But
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: same thing. He started telling me things he'd never told anyone,
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: and he became my human source. And that was eight
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: ten months out of the academy and I'd already recruited
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: a source. I was lucky that I had a senior
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: Connie that allowed that, and he didn't take that person on.
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: He could have tried to do it himself, but he
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: was a very supportive senior Connie. So I think I
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: was lucky. But yeah, that human element I've always loved.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Please tell me you were involved in the lawyer ex
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Nicola Gobbo human source.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: And Debarcle no comment.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: Wow, it's such a difficult So we're getting off track
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: a little bit here, But I think this it's important
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: because the human element is so important and managing these
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: people is so critical, and giving police officers the latitude
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: to be able to create these relationships without the fear
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: not just of making a mistake, but their colleagues going
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: there's some fishy gun and then suddenly got the internal
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: investigations on them and all kind of stuff, and I
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: think that has put everything back a long way.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: The stuff up around that.
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: Well, it's actually quite relevant to CCTV and surveillance because
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: back to my point about avenues of inquiry for an investigation,
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: they're dwindling. I mean, police can't listen to phones like
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: they used to. And now with the Lawyer X issue,
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: I know for a fact that Victoria Police is struggling
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: to recruit human sources. And for a long time they've
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: been critical to major investigations, as you would know from
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: your Parana days. So if you've got encryption stopping electronic
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: surveillance or hindering it to a large degree less human sources.
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: What are your other traditional avenues of inquiry. You've got fingerprints,
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: DNA witnesses, CCTV, So CCTV is basically a digital witness
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: that's recording twenty four to seven and police aren't making
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: the best use of it. So they kind of already
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: got one anti behind the back and without maximizing the
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: avenue's inquiry they do have. They've just seen cases slip
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: through their fingers.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Because having all that material.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: I imagine when you go into the interview room with
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: your suspect and you already know the answers to the
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: questions you're asking him.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: So if you can let him know that, you're much
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: more likely to be able to bend.
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: Him into working with you. And imagine, Yeah, we call
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: it leverage. It depends on the type of person and
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: what you want them to do. You know, there's agencies
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: like the DEA that use leverage extremely partially because sentencing
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: in the US is extraordinary. Like, you get caught with marijuana,
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: you go to prison for ten years. So for someone
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: caught with a little bit of cannabis facing ten years prison,
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: they're always going to work with you. Whereas in Australia
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: we don't have that kind of sentencing, which I think
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: is a good thing, but that leverage can be hard
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: to identify what will work for what person. Some people
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: will be motivated by money, some people will motivate it
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: by revenge. You kind of got to figure out the
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: psychological aspect more than just a legal aspect.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: There is that moment you can go look, listen, I
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: know what you're saying, but here's the picture of you
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: walking on the street right near that, and here's the
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: next picture of you there, and you know, all we
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: need is to confirm this and let's let me do it.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: Go, Yeah, exactly. So I mean I say this a
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: little bit about our bail laws as well in Victoria,
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: and another use for our CCTV system is exactly what
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: you described where I remember doing ramand briefs or remand
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: hearings in front of a bail justice at pran where
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: you haven't got a lot of evidence. At that point.
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: You kind of know that they've been charged, they've been
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: caught on the hop, but you don't know the full
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: extent of how violent the crime was or how they
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: really behaved. Something that would be on CCTV for example.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: So you're giving a very small amount of evidence to
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: a magistrate or a bail justice to try and remard
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: that person. My system would give those informants more evidence
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: at that early stage to make that remand hearing stronger,
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: which in turn would make them less likely to get bail.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: Because it never really gets talked about in the media
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: that this magistrate gave this person bail or this bail
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: justice gave this person bail. It's like, well, it's up
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: to the informant to put a strong enough case to
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: that person to and if you're putting slop in front
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: of a bail justice or in front of a magistrate,
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: of course they're going to get bail because you've only
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: had a few hours to start setting up that investigation.
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: If you've caught them, you know, just around in the
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: corner from a burg or whatever, so you haven't got
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: a lot of evidence to put to them yet, it
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: might generate enough cause for them to be reminded. So
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: if you can put camera footage from MY network to
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: them where it shows them holding a massive machete, it
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: shows the victim screaming and how close they were to
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: murdering them. In actual vivid detail. As a magistrate, I'd
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: be like, oh, that's that's very serious. I mean you
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: can put it in writing, but seeing it in video footage,
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: I might be actually, I'm not going to I'm not
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: going to give you bail. So I think whatever we
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: can do to support our informants to make a stronger case,
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: that essentially will also make people make it harder for
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: people to get bail.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: Sadly, I feel like you're going to need another Jill
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: mar case or a Clio in Western Australia, one of
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: these ones that captures I'll never forget that the days
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: when that fill my investigation was going on, and the
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: whole city was grouped by this we want an answer,
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: we want an answer, and if you could just distill
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: that unified feeling you had no problems.
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: Well that's interesting. After Jill mar there was millions of
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: dollars pumped into CCTV, so the federal government chipped in,
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: stakement chipped in. I don't have the figures, but it
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: was somewhere around five million dollars, which is in a
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: lot in these maybe it's more now, but a lot
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: of cameras got installed after Jill Mar, so I think
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: we just get complacent and we just we settle back
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: down to our old ways and we don't invest in
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: these things. It's like any after era terrorist after September eleven,
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: how much security changed in airports. It's just a it's
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: a reflex thing. And like you've said all along that
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: you kind of don't want to make these changes unless
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: you're forced to.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Well, it's right.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, you see, on the DNA side, we've already
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: got the technology around forensic investory of genealogical searching, which
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: means that all those offended DNA that's unknown, unknown human remains,
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: there's answers to all those cases right now. If we
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: could get the commercial databases like ancestry to my Heritage
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: and so forth to actually hand it over.
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: And isn't that fascinating? People are willing to hand the
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: DNA over to those organizations, and people aren't willing to
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: say to my network, they've got cameras. It's just like
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: this is what I mean about people pick and choose
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: where they want to get into this technology, but they're
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: absorbing it anyway. They're giving the DNA to a private
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: organization just to see who their great grandparents were been
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: speaking of DNA. You know, we're talking today in Easy Street.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: Fitzroy and Easy Street murders were a few hundred meters
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: away back in nineteen seventy seven and that was solved
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: through DNA.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: What's right on the knife alleged go to the core
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: process and the case is based around DNA which they've
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: had for a very long time. And the forensic unit
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: at McLeod has a whole cold case full of I
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: mean identified in the Mister Cruel series of abductions that
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: they had DNA in at least two cases. And yet
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: we're still talking about one offender when we could be
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: now looking at three or four different scenarios and locking
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: people upstairs.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Yep, you know.
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: I think it's the technology is there, The public debate
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: has to be had and you're part of that.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like a pioneer?
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: I do a little bit. I feel sick some days
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: because I realize I'm getting into something. I say to
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: my wife sometimes like what am I doing? Like I
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: have these days where I just have this mini panic
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: attacks for a microsecond and then I'll get myself together.
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: But I do feel like that I have always been
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: a visionary, but I'm waiting into a very complex environment privacy, ethics, stakeholders,
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: like our platform is basically built. I've spent the last
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: two months just making phone calls, emails, flying to camera,
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: find a Sydney, educating people. That's where I think most
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: of the time will be spent.
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because you think of it, there's waking moments. He's
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: making micro panics and whatnot. You know, if I was
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: still in the forest, i'd probably be a superintendent.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Now, I'll be on the way to.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: Being an assistant commission I'll be involved away and i'd
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: be involved in maintaining the status quiet.
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: You weren't happy with that, No, I don't think I could.
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: I've toyed with going back, you know, potentially rose colored glasses.
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: I talk to a lot of people still on the
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: job clearly, and what I love being in the private
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: sector is our atility to do what we need to
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: do when we need to do it. And I would
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: categorically not get that privilege of I went back to
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: Victoria Belie. You know, I think they're a big, slow
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: moving organization. I think i'd find that inherently frustrating, and
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: I did in twenty nineteen when I was there I'm
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: very frustrated.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I think after this interview that door was closed. Anyways,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I love it, I love vic poll part.
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but I times it it.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: Takes courage because I think what we're going to see
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: in police forces around the world, most public institutions is
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: outsourcing of all kinds of things. Yeah, it's going to
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: have to happen, and so I think you're part of
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: that whole trend that's happening.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: What are your goals have you have you got a
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: timeline for this?
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: I don't have a timeline, but I am very impatient
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: and I do have a sense of urgency to this
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: because I know how important it could be or it
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: is to community. I'd like to see it operational within
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: eighteen months across Australia. That's what I'm like to see.
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: But I've just got to be patient with these organizations
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: that take time. So as much as I'm I have
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: a sense of urgency, I need to work within the
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: constraints of government and politics and just keep working with them,
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: not against them. And that's really important. Like I can't
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: do this without Laura for Saint, he's getting on board,
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: and like you've said earlier, I want this to be
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: community led, but I want it to be government trusted.
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: So it's a journey.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: It is, use the cliche journey without mass, but the
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: sort of situations you don't need maps, you just need
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: good shoes.
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, and I think I'll be replacing my shoes regularly.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: Fantastic.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: Well, thanks you, Tom that It's been fantastic, really interesting
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: and debted, and I wish you all the very best
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: of success in this.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: It's going to be a tough, but I think it's
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: an important thing.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: I think it typifies what we need to do with
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: the community and police to work together towards positive outcomes.
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: The problem is people don't want to get onto this
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: until they need it.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: That's David Bartleer, this Safer Places network, and you know
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: the technology is all their people.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: We've just got to allow it to be used.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: And balance off these privacy issues with the greater good,
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: which is solving crimes, getting our elderly folks back home,
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: getting autistic children back with their families. You know, have
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: you had experiences of this? Do you have CCTV? Are
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: you prepared to share that footage even in real time?
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: I think this is the future. People, Please get in touch.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: If you have information that can solve a crime, please
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: call crime Stoppers when it's under a triple three, triple zero.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: If you've got a story that you don't trust the
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: police with, please email me Adam Shanner, writer at gmail
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: dot com. This has been real time with Adam shanned
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening and make sure you subscribe and share
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: that podcast for more independent journalism.
• 48:47
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