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13: When You're Facing Racial Injustice at Work (Dr. Luke Bobo) · Finding God at Work

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, I'm Chris.
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This is Finding God at Work.
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Just a reminder that Finding God at Work
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isn't just a podcast, it's also an online
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course.
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Check it out at FindingGodAtWork.org.
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Our current series is Divine Disappointments, Facing Pain
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and Sorrow at Work.
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And one topic I've wanted to lean into
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is the topic of racial injustice in the
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workplace.
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And so I figured I would talk to
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somebody who's written about that, Dr. Luke Bobo.
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He is actually a luminary in the whole
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faith and work conversation.
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He's written or edited several books about faith
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in the workplace, but he's also written a
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book called Race, Economics and Apologetics.
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Is there a connection where he talks about
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facing workplace discrimination and our response as disciples
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of Jesus?
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So excited for you to get to hear
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his words in today's episode.
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All right.
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Well, today we have the privilege of an
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interview with Dr. Luke Bobo, who comes from
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a lot of different institutions.
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Currently, he and his wife, Dr. Rita Holmes
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Bobo, lead a consulting firm called Pursuing the
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Greater Good.
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But he's also had experience as in the
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marketplace and as a seminary professor at Covenant
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and doing other things.
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And today we get to talk with him
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about facing racial discrimination in the workplace.
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So thank you so much for being with
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us, Dr. Bobo.
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It's a pleasure to be with you, Chris.
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And hello to your listening audience.
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So I was just chatting with Dr. Bobo
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before we started recording about how it was
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really hard for me to pick one thing
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to focus on because you've written so much
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about faith in the workplace.
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But before we dive into talking about race
1:59
and experience of discrimination, since our podcast is
2:03
called Finding God at Work, I like to
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ask guests, how do you find God at
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Work?
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What's something that's helpful for you in terms
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of connecting with God and your experience of
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everyday work and labor?
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Well, that's a great question.
2:18
And I would say just a couple of
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things.
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One, we know God is already there because
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he's omnipresent.
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So in terms of concrete, ways where we
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see God at work is when colleagues do
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good work, when you find Christians who want
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to do good work, when there's occasions when
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there is a conflict or disruption and you
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find other Christians willing to roll up their
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sleeves to bring a resolution to that disruption,
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that injustice, what have you.
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So I would say you have Christians who
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do good work, you have nonbelievers who do
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good work.
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And I know we might talk about apologetics,
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but one of the things I was taught
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as an apologist is look for where God
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is already at work and an unbeliever.
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And one way God is already at work
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in an unbeliever, speaking of seeing God at
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work is sometimes unbelievers do good work.
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And that's evidence that God perhaps is already
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at work in that unbeliever.
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So I love that.
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Yeah.
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So unbelievers and the good work that they
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do, Christians and the good work that they
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do, God is already at work because it's
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omnipresent.
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And then those matters that are sticky and
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cause consternation, injustices, when you see Christians
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and nonbelievers seeking to bring justice to that
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matter.
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I love that, that idea that when we're
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looking for what God is doing, we're not
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just looking at what other Christians in the
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workplace are doing, but any kind of good
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work that's happening, God is ultimately the one
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who's behind that.
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And sometimes I feel like Christians can kind
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of get off on the wrong way of
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thinking with this or thinking like, oh, the
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only thing that God is doing is what
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me and my Christian co-workers are doing.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And I credit Dr. Amy Sherman with this
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idea.
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It's a very simple idea, Chris.
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She says we tend to truncate the Bible.
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Genesis 3 through Revelation, Chapter 19.
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We forget the bookends.
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The bookends are Genesis 1 and 2.
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Every person is made in God's image, so
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every person is capable of doing good work,
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moral work, et cetera, and Revelation 21 through
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22 is the other bookend, where God's going
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to take our work that's redeemable, redeem it,
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and those gifts are going to be brought
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into heaven.
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Now, that just blows my mind.
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Yes.
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That's crazy to think about that.
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God is going to take some of our
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good work, redeem it, and that's going to
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be escorted in, welcome in to the new
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heavens and the new earth.
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When I get to run the Fine and
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God at Work course at churches, we have
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a session about that where I ask someone,
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what do you think you'll be doing for
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work a thousand years from now?
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And, you know, we brainstorm, and it's hard
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to imagine, because our experience of work is
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so fraught with thorns and thistles, with injustices.
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Indeed, indeed.
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You know, there's that promise that somehow there
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will be that redeemed and restored version ahead
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of us.
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Indeed, indeed.
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Yeah.
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So speaking of some of those thorns and
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thistles and injustices, I do want to talk
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a little bit about race in the workplace.
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So in this current series, we're exploring different
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disappointments that people are facing, different challenges, whether
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those are injustice challenges or not, like getting
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laid off can be a challenge, dealing with
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your own mental health challenges in the workplace
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can be a challenge.
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But another aspect is when there's actual injustice,
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when there's some way that people or systems
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are not aligned with what's just and right.
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And one instance of that is what you
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call the racialized economy.
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So I just finished reading your book, Race,
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Economics and Apologetics.
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Is there a connection?
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And in that book, you talk about a
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racialized economy.
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So could you just explain what you mean
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by that?
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Yeah, and that's actually a spin or a
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riff off of Dr. Michael Emerson, he wrote
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the book Divided by Faith, and he coined
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the phrase.
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I think it's credited to him.
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He coined the phrase a racialized society.
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So it was not a far leap to
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develop or come up with the phrase of
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racialized economy, because I'll give you an example.
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Home ownership among African-Americans is still quite
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low.
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And in some job markets, if you have
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a black sounding name, you might be screened
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out and not given the opportunity for an
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interview.
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Yeah, on that specific piece, I know you
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cited a study that was actually done about
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that, right, where Marion Bertrand and Sendhill Mullenathan
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at the University of Chicago and at MIT
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ran this study with identical resumes.
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But then they're just different names.
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And what did that study show?
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It showed that if you had a black
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sounding name, that you were less likely to
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be called in for an interview.
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And so that's those two examples, housing and
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employment.
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And also when Dr. Emerson came to Covenant
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Seminary years ago, I was director of the
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Francis Schaeffer Institute.
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And he showed a video, I think it
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was made by 60 Minutes, called True Colors,
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and two men, one white, one black, both
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with equal credentials, went to a car dealership.
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When the white brother entered the parking lot,
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immediately someone came out to help him.
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When the African-American brother came to the
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parking lot, the Terry, while he was not
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immediately out the door to service him, those
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same two men, the black and the white
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brother, went to an apartment complex, and I
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think this was filmed in St. Louis, this
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particular segment.
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And when the white brother inquired about an
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apartment, the landlord was very hospitable, sure, we
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have a place, et cetera, et cetera.
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When the black brother showed up, suddenly there
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were no vacancies.
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Now, your listeners probably know about redlining and
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restrictive covenants, some of this that's happening in
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the 21st century is the legacy of redlining
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and restrictive covenants.
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Restrictive covenants meaning we just want certain people
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to be in our neighborhood.
10:02
Yeah, I used to work at a mortgage
10:03
company, and so I thought a lot about
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the history of redlining, which I've spoken about
10:07
in some earlier episodes.
10:10
And it seems like we have this kind
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of dual action of racial injustice, where on
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the one hand, there's policies from the past,
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where even if the policy has changed, we
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still have knock on effects of the previous
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discrimination.
10:24
So if my grandfather had access to mortgage
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lending and became a homeowner, whereas my friend,
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Josh, who's black, his grandfather didn't have access
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to that, so I have inherited wealth that
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Josh doesn't have, et cetera, et cetera.
10:40
That's exactly right.
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That's a great illustration.
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There's also a video called, and I'm going
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to forget the name, the unequal race.
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I think that's what it's called, the unequal
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race, and it shows how white Americans have
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had a jump or a head start on
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amassing wealth.
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And this is all related to the racialized
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economy and African-Americans and Hispanics, et cetera,
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still trying to catch up because when African
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-Americans were brought to the country, they were
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used to help white families accrue wealth, and
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African-Americans were not allowed, and some were
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just a small percentage, like Frederick Douglass was,
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many helped him to buy his freedom.
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So there were a few African-Americans who
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could earn their own wealth, but it was
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a very, very small minority African-Americans in
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that regard.
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Yeah, to kind of lean into that metaphor
11:53
of the race, like if you had four
11:57
different runners starting a race, but three of
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them have weights tied to their shoes, and
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then halfway through the race, you take the
12:03
weights off and you say, now it's fair.
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The other person still has a really significant
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head start, so to speak.
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That's a great word picture.
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That's a great illustration and something that I
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hope your listeners can visualize.
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I've heard African-Americans pastors put it this
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way.
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In many ways, white Americans have circled the
12:32
racetrack several times, and African-Americans are just
12:34
getting out of their cars.
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So those are ways that we have a
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racialized society, and sadly, there's still evidence that
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legacy still exists.
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I call it residue.
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There's residue from the past that still plagues
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us today.
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And today is just not African-Americans, but
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it's also Hispanics.
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And if you look at the median wealth
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in white families, it's like some outrageous number,
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$100,000 for Hispanics, I believe, is $6
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,000, and for African-Americans, it's like $3
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,000.
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It's some abysmal number, a very small number.
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Yeah, so that's kind of the macro view
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of the racialized economy.
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Bring it in then to the micro view.
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Let's say we have listeners who feel like
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they're experiencing racial discrimination in the workplace, like
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maybe, like you said, with job applications, like
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they're really qualified, but they're not getting callbacks,
13:45
and they wonder, like, does this have to
13:47
do with with my name or with my
13:49
race, or they're in a work environment, and
13:52
it feels like they're not getting the same
13:54
opportunities that colleagues are.
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As an individual person who's actually facing these
13:59
things where the rubber meets the road, how
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do you respond as a disciple of Jesus
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if you're facing that kind of injustice?
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Hmm.
14:08
Well, that's a hard question.
14:13
You know, if you are facing that type
14:17
of injustice, at first, I would say, make
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sure you do your due diligence to make
14:24
sure it's truly discrimination.
14:27
Because I think sometimes it's like the boy
14:30
who cries wolf.
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Sometimes it might not be discrimination.
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So do your due diligence.
14:37
Um, second, I would encourage those in those
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situations to, I have a, I have a
14:44
group of people I'll call my board of
14:45
directors.
14:47
These are people I get advice from.
14:49
And so I would suggest going to some
14:54
wise folks that have some life experience to,
14:59
to ask you questions and to help you
15:03
to navigate, because each, each city, each workplace
15:07
is different.
15:08
The politics are different.
15:10
And so find people who are wise in
15:14
your proximity to help you to navigate some
15:19
of those landmines.
15:21
And third, um, it may, it may require
15:27
legal, legal action.
15:29
Um, and I often say to people, um,
15:37
you don't have to be a martyr.
15:39
Um, you don't have to stay in a
15:43
situation or a context that's unjust or unjust.
15:49
Um, you don't have to stay there.
15:52
Um, so those are just a few things
15:56
I might suggest.
15:58
Yeah.
15:59
Yeah.
15:59
So kind of ha having the patience to
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do your due diligence and make sure you
16:04
understand what's going on, seeking godly counsel and
16:08
discernment, and then considering, okay, do I, do
16:12
I fight here or, or is it better
16:14
for me to just find a different opportunity?
16:18
I'm talking to a young lady now, she's
16:20
African American, and this is her first real
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job.
16:23
She's 26 and she's been reaching out to
16:26
me for counsel and, um, I've said to
16:29
her, you're young.
16:31
You don't, you don't have to stay in
16:32
this situation.
16:34
Uh, guys, it's not calling you to be
16:36
a martyr.
16:37
Um, but you know, do you do diligence?
16:40
Um, know that, and this is something else
16:44
I could add.
16:45
Um, we live in a broken world and
16:50
I'm reading through, I've read through Philippians many,
16:53
many times and he mentions the word suffering.
16:56
There's going to be suffering, uh, that we
16:59
all have to, we all have a cross
17:01
to bear.
17:01
There's going to be suffering to some degree
17:04
that we all have to, to shoulder or
17:07
to endure.
17:09
And we have to also just pick our
17:11
battles.
17:13
Uh, some battles are worth fighting.
17:15
If, if there's truly a discrimination case that
17:18
you have, that's legitimate, that you can win,
17:20
then go for it.
17:23
But wisdom and discernment says, well, maybe you
17:26
shouldn't, maybe you should just move on.
17:31
Does it put my family at risk?
17:33
If I pursue a, a legal action, do
17:37
I have the funds for legal action?
17:41
Um, and it's, it's not a cop out.
17:43
It's just understanding that we live in a
17:46
broken world, we have to practice discernment.
17:50
And sometimes it's best just to, as Jesus
17:53
would say, just knock the dust off your
17:56
feet and keep moving.
17:59
Yeah.
18:00
It makes me think of when, um, when
18:01
St. Paul writes to people who are, are
18:04
literally enslaved, um, if you can get your
18:07
freedom, do so, you know, like, and yet
18:09
at the same time, he also has the
18:11
theology of suffering, like he said.
18:13
So it's a, it's a both and right.
18:15
It's not, oh, we just have to resign
18:16
ourselves to our circumstances because that's what Christian
18:19
suffering means.
18:20
That's right.
18:21
We can take ownership for our own agency
18:22
to find a better opportunity.
18:25
And yet we're always going to hit suffering
18:26
at some point.
18:27
And that is the opportunity to draw close
18:29
to Jesus.
18:30
And there's no, and for your listeners, your
18:32
listeners probably know this.
18:34
There's no perfect job.
18:38
And if you find it, uh, it will
18:42
become imperfect when you join.
18:44
Yeah.
18:45
Yeah.
18:46
Absolutely.
18:47
Absolutely.
18:48
Well, the, the final idea I want to
18:50
explore, uh, you kind of have this in
18:52
the final chapter of your book.
18:54
Um, you write this and you're talking about
18:57
apologetics and this idea of, of, of sharing
18:59
our faith, we must embody the gospel to
19:02
address these issues.
19:03
Embodying the gospel is our apologetic.
19:06
What do you mean by that?
19:08
What isn't an embodied apologetic?
19:10
Yeah, it's, it just comes down to this,
19:13
this simple phrase, um, work and live.
19:19
In the workplace as Jesus would, I mean,
19:26
it's easy to say, I know that, uh,
19:29
but in the power of the Holy Spirit,
19:31
we can work and live and play in
19:37
the workplace as Jesus would, and we will
19:42
become a sweet aroma in the workplace and
19:47
Jesus attracted people to himself because he was
19:50
not in a hurry.
19:53
He answered questions.
19:55
He treated his enemies with kindness.
19:59
Now imagine that he treated his enemies with
20:03
kindness and that's the way of Jesus.
20:07
If we, if we work, live and play
20:11
after the manner and rhythms and habits of
20:14
Jesus, that's the embodied apologetic.
20:18
And I think, I think in our world
20:22
today, particularly in the U S folks are
20:25
not interested in what you say.
20:28
They want to see how you live.
20:32
Yeah.
20:33
And, and I'm from Kinsey, Missouri, I live
20:37
in Kansas, but in Missouri, the motto is
20:40
for the states to show me state.
20:43
So nonbelievers want us to show them what
20:47
it means to be a Christian.
20:49
And sometimes that's verbal, but I think someone
20:55
said that communication, most of communication is, is
20:58
like, it's like 80% nonverbal.
21:03
And I think how fitting then that our
21:06
apologetic is an embodied nonverbal apologetics.
21:14
Yeah.
21:15
I love that analogy of nonverbal communication because
21:18
for me and part of my ministry is
21:21
always trying to encourage people to, to grow
21:23
in confidence with sharing their faith.
21:25
I like to say, I want to help
21:27
gentle people become confident and confident people become
21:29
gentle, you know?
21:32
And, and so that, that includes like having
21:34
conversations, but, um, who we are, how we
21:38
do our every day is the ground in
21:40
context of any words that we speak.
21:43
Uh, and so I love that, that it's
21:45
like, Hey, we're, when you're just doing your
21:47
every day, that's your nonverbal communication of the
21:49
gospel.
21:49
And then that's what's going to also present
21:51
opportunities maybe for those verbal conversations when the
21:53
opportunity is right.
21:55
Exactly.
21:55
Exactly.
21:56
Oh, that's wonderful.
21:58
Well, I wish we had more time and,
22:00
um, and, uh, and, uh, you know, Dr.
22:02
Boba hasn't promised this, but while we're recording,
22:04
would you, would you like to come back
22:05
again some time and talk about these ideas
22:07
some more?
22:08
I like talking to, uh, a fellow believer
22:11
who loves the things that I love.
22:14
Praise the Lord.
22:15
We can chat it up all day.
22:17
Yeah.
22:17
So, so listeners, hopefully we'll have another, uh,
22:19
interview like this at some point.
22:21
Um, but one thing, uh, about our podcasts,
22:24
we always end in prayer.
22:25
So, um, Dr. Boba, would you be willing
22:27
to just kind of end with a final
22:28
blessing prayer for our listeners?
22:30
Lord, we thank you for Chris and how
22:34
you have led him to begin this podcast,
22:37
start this podcast.
22:39
Lord, I have no idea who the listeners
22:42
are, but the good news, Lord, is that
22:45
you know, every listener, in fact, you know,
22:50
every hair on their head, you know, them
22:54
are more intimately than we do.
22:58
So Lord, I pray that, uh, as Paul
23:00
would pray in Philippians that you provide what
23:04
they need according to your riches in glory.
23:09
And Lord, I pray that, uh, we will
23:12
live as Jesus lived.
23:15
Um, every day, um, in our workplaces, in
23:19
our neighborhoods, at the grocery store, in the
23:22
grocery lawn, in the park, God help us
23:25
to be that sweet aroma of Christ wherever
23:28
we go.
23:30
We pray this Lord in Jesus name, the
23:31
Christ.
23:35
Thanks for listening.
23:37
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