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Daddy Issues (ft. Mayim Bialik) · Deep Secrets

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, holy shit, holy shit, holy shit.
• 0:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: I just accidentally introduced myself to CIA agents.
• 0:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, hold on.
• 0:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: I am, I am just trying to get back to my hotel room right now.
• 0:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Gosh, I don't, I don't know what time it is.
• 0:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: That call, I don't know if Killing's awake.
• 0:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm just talking into my phone, like a sociopath.
• 0:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I am, giddy, I am like shaking, I am, I am.
• 0:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: So tired.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let me, there was a lot, I'm sorry, let me slow down, let me explain what just happened.
• 0:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: I am an Eastern Europe for a bunch of shows, and I am tired, like so tired that I've warped into this weird, goofy, slightly unhinged version of myself.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: I've been awake for almost 24 hours.
• 0:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: I had a taping in San Diego, then flew directly to Minneapolis, then connected to fly to Amsterdam, then flew to Eastern Europe, but at the time I landed here.
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: I had 45 minutes before soundcheck.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: The shows, I mean, the shows have been great, but it has been a full-out sprint in the economy class.
• 1:18
  [SPEAKER_05]: You can have a close-up, though.
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_05]: I've never been near a country before.
• 1:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's beautiful.
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm excited to be here.
• 1:29
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm excited to be in the Paris of the East.
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_05]: You guys have twice as much history and have the pretentiousness.
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_05]: This is lovely.
• 1:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then after the shows, we do these meat and crates.
• 1:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I actually love them.
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's very easy to walk off stage and go, I miss this tag or that crowd was weird.
• 1:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then you meet someone who's entire weaker.
• 1:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe their entire year was built around this one night and then you just go, oh, right, that's the point.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: But also, at the same time, I mean, both things can be true.
• 2:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes, meat and greets can just kind of feel like running for mayor.
• 2:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: You're, you screw on the same smile, you hold the same energy, you have the same mini conversation, like 120 times in a row, and tonight, at the end of our meat and greet, the very last couple of lines.
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: They go, hey, we work at the embassy, you were amazing.
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: And for some reason, I just matched their energy and went, hey, I just found out my grandpa worked in the CIA.
• 2:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: You guys were amazing.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: They paused, they looked at each other, looked back at me, and then one of them goes, wow.
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a very good community to be a part of.
• 2:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then, winked at me.
• 2:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: You guys, I accidentally made friends with spies in Eastern Europe.
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: They handed me a card on the back of it.
• 2:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: They wrote a different phone number.
• 2:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then it says, call for E-VAC bodyguards or a good time.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: which is comforting, but also, you know, how people get disappeared.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I am dropping my bags and going to get some drinks with them, because I'm obviously way to hopped up on adrenaline to sleep regardless of how deliriously tired I am.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: But if I do happen to disappear in Eastern Europe, call that number.
• 3:26
  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, before we dive in, I just wanted to say if you're new here, welcome to Deep Secrets.
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm Hunter Hill, and alongside my sister, Kaylin, we've been unraveling this unbelievable true story of our grandfather's secret life with the CIA.
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_05]: What started as a family mystery has turned into an investigation involving Cold War espionage, a sunken, Soviet submarine, and a whole lot of questions we never thought would be asking.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_05]: So if you haven't already, please follow or subscribe to Deep Secrets wherever you're listening to this.
• 3:54
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the easiest way to make sure you don't miss an episode as we continue uncovering this story.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you're enjoying the show, leaving us a rating or review, genuinely helps more people discover the show.
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_05]: You can follow our show at Deep Secrets Pod Online Deep Secrets Pod.com and of course you can always find me on social media at Hunter Hill Comedy.
• 4:12
  [SPEAKER_05]: Alright, let's get into it.
• 4:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, Eastern Europe hits different when you've been deep diving into your grandpa and his adventurous chess game with the Soviet Union.
• 4:27
  [SPEAKER_05]: The tension in Eastern Europe today, it feels familiar.
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, more and more, all of this reminds me of the Cold War.
• 4:37
  [SPEAKER_05]: Some of the countries were touring through our younger than I am, which is just nuts.
• 4:42
  [SPEAKER_05]: These young countries that were once free, but then under Soviet control and now they're free again.
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_05]: All of them are just looking around like, hey, what's going to happen?
• 4:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: Are we free or is Putin just going to bulldoze through Ukraine and then on to us?
• 4:55
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean...
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know, maybe the Cold War never ended, or maybe now it's just hot, it's been crazy.
• 5:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: After some of the shows in meet and grades, people have even explained to me that they don't even feel comfortable laughing or showing emotions in public yet.
• 5:11
  [SPEAKER_05]: I've also gotten lots of questions pointed towards America, like, hey, when are you guys going to show up?
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: Some of them have just flat out said, hey, what's going on over there?
• 5:20
  [SPEAKER_05]: And I mean, historically, it feels like we would have written in on our high horse and our NATO allies and now they're just some very real question marks around puppeteering from the motherland or if our great nation has switched teams all together.
• 5:36
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we have gotten so far from the sacrifices our grandpa Jim and countless others made in World War II.
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, actually, I guess it's not countless.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_05]: I just googled it.
• 5:47
  [SPEAKER_05]: According to the National World War II museum, 418,500 Americans gave their lives for a better tomorrow.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: I can't help but feel haunted by that ulogy given that ua jima when rabbi gittles on said, when the last shot has been fired, there will be those eyes that are turned backward, not forward, who will be satisfied with those wide extremes of poverty and wealth in which the seed of another war can breed.
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_05]: We promise you, our departed comrades, this too, we will not permit.
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: This war has been fought by the common man.
• 6:22
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's fruits of peace must be enjoyed by the common man.
• 6:27
  [SPEAKER_05]: We promise by all that is sacred and holy that your sons, the sons of miners, millers, the sons of farmers, and workers will inherit from your death the right to a living that is decent and secure.
• 6:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: all these years later.
• 6:42
  [SPEAKER_05]: And it still slaps.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_05]: Weirdly, this trip to Eastern Europe feels more like Hollywood's interpretation of espionage.
• 6:49
  [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like a medically obese Ethan Hunt, you know, Ethan Bunt Kick.
• 6:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: This trip has been super cool.
• 6:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: A different country every day or two, private security and civilian clothes shadowing us in the streets or sitting a few tables away from us at restaurants, the parentheses.
• 7:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: Swanky, I mean, I'm recording this and a whole tell that literally used to be the palace to the king's sister in Warsaw.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_05]: And I used to contently sleep in the back of a comedy club at night because I couldn't afford the gas to make it home and back.
• 7:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: I am tired, but high off adrenaline, I don't know which way is up in which way is down.
• 7:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: We've been in Eastern Europe for a few days now.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_05]: I can add flight delay due to a Russian drone in the air space to my touring comic Bingo card.
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_05]: Last night we were out dancing until 3 a.m., which was great, because I'd couples therapy at 4 a.m. Yeah, if you can just picture me on a dance floor, arms pumping and just occasionally screaming out.
• 7:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: I have couples therapy in 45 minutes.
• 7:51
  [SPEAKER_05]: That's when therapy over Zoom is very helpful.
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_05]: When they can't smell the night before on you.
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_05]: I am very aware and grateful, just lucky to live the life that I do.
• 8:04
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, how many people get to travel a world telling jokes?
• 8:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: Go out for drinks with spies, and yes, I've worked very hard.
• 8:11
  [SPEAKER_05]: None of this was given to me.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: I keep showing up and making room for those opportunities, but I try to really hold on to the fact, whether it shows in Europe, Japan, Australia, that the only reason I'm able to go out and do these shows, these tours.
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: is because my wife Ashden is at home with our two boys.
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_05]: If stand up, my career is a vehicle, then she is 100% the wheels.
• 8:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: And just to be completely honest and transparent, I'm essentially still living paycheck to paycheck.
• 8:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no team or nanny's back home taking care of everything.
• 8:44
  [SPEAKER_05]: We rely on the help from the grandparents, from our parents.
• 8:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: The only reason that I get to travel and see the world and experience this version of being a stand-up comic is because I'm touring with a friend who is very successful.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: I've worked hard and I've earned the opportunity and I welcome all the perks and comforts of the job But I would like feel gross if people if you guys thought that I just had it all like that.
• 9:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: And no matter where I am, every weekend, sometimes every day, I am in multiple time zones.
• 9:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: And everything is up in the air and on the run, no matter what time zone I am in or how long the flight is or how tired I am, I always make an effort to still show up and be consistent for action and the boys back home, whether it's couples therapy at 4am or setting an alarm to wake up at 2am to face time for breakfast or a pre-teaball pep talk.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes I'll buy a book and I'll read it to them on the road.
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_05]: Over FaceTime, I'm grateful that we even have things like FaceTime at our disposal.
• 9:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: There are loads of jobs that require you to spend chunks of time away from your family.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_05]: And on the dad front, from the perspective of a parent, I get it.
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_05]: You gotta do whatever it takes to keep the lights on, but if I'm being honest with you about my specific situation,
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: It is very selfish, and I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way, like more of an all-encompassing selfishness.
• 10:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: My job is demanding ruthless exhausting, but more than anything, it is extremely rewarding and adventurous, and continues to find ways to reward my curiosity.
• 10:28
  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyone who is kids will tell you, it is amazing, but it is also so exhausting.
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: I am very lucky to have a job that is selfish and I mean that in a good way.
• 10:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: Just the fact that at night I can be alone in a hotel room with whatever streaming platform I'm binging at the time and no baby monitor or toddler is going to call out for me in the middle of the night.
• 10:52
  [SPEAKER_05]: That is a huge win.
• 10:53
  [SPEAKER_05]: That is a luxury that my wife does not have.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: My job fills my selfish cup, the shows, the instant feedback on how a new joke is coming, that the place is the food.
• 11:04
  [SPEAKER_05]: All of it selfishly fills me up so that when I get home, I am so ready to give all of me to my family.
• 11:12
  [SPEAKER_05]: After an obligatory jet lag nap.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_05]: And look, even though my job is exciting and I love it, I can sincerely say that every time I leave the house for shows, it hurts.
• 11:28
  [SPEAKER_05]: And sometimes the only thing you can do to combat the hurt, the way you run away from it is to fill every moment of the day with fun or adventure distractions, because I know after the show, like hours later, when the adrenaline crashes, the heartache is gonna hit me like a fucking brick wall.
• 11:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Piss you tight.
• 11:48
  [SPEAKER_05]: Piss you tight.
• 11:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Oh, oh, oh, day.
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_05]: You can only last so long.
• 12:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe it's just me.
• 12:01
  [SPEAKER_05]: I can only last so long with that kind of heartache.
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_05]: So I try to stay busy and distract myself, whether it's finding the best interspot, another show I can hop up on, a museum to explore.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess in a way it's compartmentalizing, and that's what I need to do in order to get through it on trips like those, and I am extremely aware of how that might not be the healthiest thing.
• 12:27
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm gone for weekends at a time.
• 12:30
  [SPEAKER_05]: Every now and then, for an international tour, I might be gone for a couple of weeks, but my grandpa was gone for eight months at a time.
• 12:37
  [SPEAKER_05]: When you're gone for anything more than a few days, your family learns to run and operate as a machine without you.
• 12:44
  [SPEAKER_05]: Not to mention that when he did get home, he wasn't allowed to talk about any of his adventures.
• 12:48
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it must have just been so isolating for my grandpa.
• 12:54
  [SPEAKER_05]: Kalen and I were lucky enough to sit down with actor, writer, director, neuroscientists, mom, multi-hifinant, myambialic, to talk about all of the impacts, something like this could have on your family and your brain.
• 13:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: My thanks for being here.
• 13:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I thank you so much.
• 13:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me.
• 13:12
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's fun.
• 13:12
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm so used to looking at a screen and talking to artificial intelligence, so it's nice to look at a screen and be talking to actual intelligence, it's so refreshing.
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: I am an actual human.
• 13:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: We were talking about your film this morning as they made us and it's weirdly, it's a movie you wrote, produced, and directed in 2022 and weirdly revolves around a lot of this stuff.
• 13:38
  [SPEAKER_05]: We originally thought this podcast was going to be about when we set out, we were just going to make a dad podcast talking about generational parenting and we accidentally found out
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_05]: it happens it's been this crazy wormhole apparently our grandfather was the first officer on a ship called the glomer explorer that publicly sailed under the public banner of Howard Hughes's deep sea mining ship well at the height of the cold war wow our whole family bought
• 14:17
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm wondering as a parent and a neuroscientist, does holding a secret like that and await for that long have any impact on your neural pathways?
• 14:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're just getting right to it.
• 14:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: You're just going deep into the science.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think there's both like a larger at a smaller question, you know, in that question, I think that, you know, one of the interesting things, especially, you know, about family secrets, right?
• 14:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: Which, I mean, this is a secret of literally Cold War proportion.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's a secret and, you know, I don't know that I can speak necessarily, I guess I can speak a little bit to sort of what happens, you know, when we create a story, we, we need to reinforce it, right, and that reinforcing involves basically an alternate truth.
• 15:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: And in most cases, the ways that we preserve that is to kind of continue telling ourselves, right, this lie.
• 15:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: And as we know from any good propaganda, or Western country these days, if you repeat something enough times, right, it becomes truth.
• 15:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what happens is,
• 15:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and there's a lot of, you know, interesting stories that I've heard of in this arena with let's say people who survived the Holocaust and they came back with secrets, right, or they were holding secrets and it's kind of like you tell yourself what you want the truth to be so many times that yes, it creates what in essence is a new reality that's a new
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: set of neural pathways that define, I wasn't in the CIA, right?
• 16:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Or there was no one else with me when we got off that train, right?
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's, you know, I don't mean to compare it to what it is to be a pathological liar, but if you've ever been in a relationship with someone, and I'll throw the word narcissist in there.
• 16:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: I've never been in a relationship with someone who's deeply narcissistic, right?
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: you can't really tell if they believe the things they tell themselves or if that's just the story that they're propping up.
• 16:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think with these kinds of secrets, it becomes very hard to tell the difference between truth and fiction.
• 16:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
• 16:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 16:39
  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
• 16:39
  [SPEAKER_05]: And as a young father myself, I'm trying kind of finding parallels between my grandfather who's gone for eight months at a time, and me being gone for weekends at a time as a standup comic.
• 16:53
  [SPEAKER_05]: His job was actually important.
• 16:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: And when I go out, people make me feel like my job is important.
• 17:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no one has to believe that you're a comedian.
• 17:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've seen your gig pretty good, but like, I don't know what you do with the rest of your time.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: None of us, Dale.
• 17:08
  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true.
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, speaking candidly, I think being a comedian is maybe one of the best jobs you could be as young parent, because I just get to be a stay-at-home dad essentially during the week.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_05]: But it's, you know, it's, I think I do tell myself the lie, also, of like, this is important.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: I need to leave the house so that I can make money.
• 17:27
  [SPEAKER_05]: show my kids that you can chase a dream and have it amount to something.
• 17:32
  [SPEAKER_05]: But then also in the back of my head, I know that my kids don't give a shit what I do for money.
• 17:36
  [SPEAKER_05]: They just know if I'm home or not.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_05]: Was it hard for you because you had two young kids while you were juggling so much in your career?
• 17:44
  [SPEAKER_05]: How do you have any pro tips for how I can try to like carve out more time or be more present while juggling so many things professionally?
• 17:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, I don't want to let go this kind of comment you made, which is both like philosophical and also like deeply true, right?
• 18:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like what are all of the small lies that we tell ourselves, you know, as parents, as partners, as children?
• 18:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think that that's a small point, but I think especially for those of us,
• 18:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: who are in a performative industry.
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a lot of confusion for us, much less our kids.
• 18:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: I remember when my kids were little, I hadn't been working, right?
• 18:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: I had left the industry for 12 years.
• 18:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: After Blossom, I got my undergraduate degree and then I went and got my PhD, and I had my first son in grad school, and then I took my doctoral hood pregnant with my second.
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: So when I re-enter the world of acting, which true story was because I was running out of health insurance, that's the true story there is.
• 18:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I would have to go to events and my kids knew me like, this is made up to my kids.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they knew me like in pajamas, they knew me, no hair, no makeup, and when I would go to work.
• 19:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: The way that my son would describe it, he would say clown.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: I looked like a clown and, you know, when I would come home, he would not hug me, he would say no clown, no clown, and I would take my makeup off and put my hair back in a, you know, ponytail and then he could reengage.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think, especially for you, for me, like, we have to pretend like we're someone different.
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's literally our job.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: And even if you're doing stand-up comedy, even if you're not reading from a script and pretending you're Amy Fairfowler or whatever, you know, the character is, when we place ourselves in that position, especially when we're performers, yeah, it's very strange.
• 19:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's also why coming home can seem very,
• 19:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: Quiet yeah and sometimes a little boring because there's no applause you just get pooped on thrown up on like you know like and yes you get to grow a human into the wonderful person they are but it's very different so
• 20:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's some of that interfacing.
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it is.
• 20:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's why a lot of celebrities have a hard time.
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's why a lot of celebrity marriages have our time because, yeah, you're constantly being someone else and expecting, you know, kind of praise and attention for that.
• 20:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: And at home, like, it really just matters.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, is my oatmeal ready?
• 20:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know.
• 20:20
  [SPEAKER_05]: Art, my son, my four-year-old the other day was playing work.
• 20:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: He was pretending to be me and to go to work.
• 20:27
  [SPEAKER_05]: And his impersonation of me going to work was just him opening up the front door and saying, OK, I'm going to work.
• 20:34
  [SPEAKER_05]: Everyone be sad now.
• 20:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: And he just shot the door and saying, I need to go tell jokes.
• 20:40
  [SPEAKER_05]: You guys be sad.
• 20:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: That's funny.
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's kind of what you say when you get on stage, too.
• 20:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of your own.
• 20:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of your own.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: OK, everyone.
• 20:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to all be sad.
• 20:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: on that note of Mercer being sad when you leave.
• 20:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Our grandfather was gone for like eight months at a time for his children.
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was curious to know if like for does that affect the neural pathways of a child?
• 21:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Growing up, that happens as it affect their like nervous system.
• 21:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, look, the easy neurodevelopmental answer is that, you know, for the first at least year, if not two or three, if you only had the mom, yeah, the child's with, like, probably be okay.
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and if you think about sort of how primates are programmed, you know, we're programmed to to nurse and sleep, you know, for the first, you know, basically the first, you know, four to six months, like that's sort of your jam.
• 21:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, when you think about the way primates historically have lived, we live in groups where, you know, your girlfriend, your auntie, you know, and your sister, we're much more important to you than the dude who got you pregnant.
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's just
• 21:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: But obviously families are different, families are, you know, sometimes there's two moms, sometimes there's two dads, like, you know, obviously that's evolved, but, you know, the generation that our grandparents, I mean, I'm a little older, um, I think then y'all, so my grandparents, you know, were immigrants from Eastern Europe, and there was a whole bunch of secrets and lies, not as interesting as the CIA, but also very, you know, valid.
• 22:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, um, and my parents were born during World War II, so, you know, they come, they both of those generations, right?
• 22:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: sort of, you know, born during World War II and the generation before, you know, men were treated very differently in terms of the expectations for emotional availability, for partnership, for participation, which you know, my grandfather was away at war, when my dad was conceived.
• 22:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: My dad was conceived on a visit that my grandmother had with my grandfather, and then she was like sent home from that visit, got pregnant, and, you know, like, that's just what you did.
• 22:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: So the pressures were great on women, but, you know, do I believe that, you know, optimally having, you know, parents involved both a mom and a dad or, you know, having to adults dividing and conquering?
• 23:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
• 23:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the parenting that came out of these generations was for children to not be seen and not be heard, you know, we think of like, well, how do you want to raise obedient children?
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, people of my parents generation and my grandparents generation, they were told, you know, my dad was pinned to his crib, like his blanket was pinned down so that he could not move.
• 23:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: because the notion was dads at war, you know, mama's tired.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think when you think about what it was like for your grandmother, right, to be without a partner and in certain families there was help, right?
• 23:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: Or there was a partnership that way and sometimes families lived on the same block.
• 23:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's how my family did it.
• 23:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: So everybody took part.
• 23:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, that absence is noted and especially, and I don't mean to presume, but when someone's keeping that level of secret, there's a lot you have to pile on top of that to keep that secret down.
• 24:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I joke that all my secrets are hidden under like cake and alcohol, because those are the best things to weigh them down.
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not normal.
• 24:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: 100%.
• 24:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I think about the compartmentalization that has to occur to just protect yourself in a situation like that.
• 24:22
  [SPEAKER_05]: My dad has eight brothers and sisters.
• 24:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So grandma was home with eight kids.
• 24:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was home without.
• 24:28
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, he was.
• 24:30
  [SPEAKER_05]: He hit those eight-month intervals, let me tell you.
• 24:33
  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think about, and I hear my dad talk about, even when he was home, it was for short spurts of time where he had to download a bunch of new information for work.
• 24:43
  [SPEAKER_05]: And he said that his dad kind of approached fatherhood in these vignettes, or Norman Rockwell memory moments.
• 24:51
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like I will be a good dad if we go chop down our own Christmas tree, if we go to the beach.
• 24:57
  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think our dad,
• 24:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: Learning all these secrets about our grandfather has really shed so much light on the way that our dad approaches fatherhood.
• 25:06
  [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
• 25:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: And honestly, it's helped me, I think, love him more and understand what he's coming from and how his mother board was built a little bit.
• 25:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
• 25:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's been wild and heartbreaking and heartwarming.
• 25:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think also something to note and you know, from, I mean, I'm just excited to get to talk to you both about this because I just think it's so fascinating and I'm happy to be here, but I also can't help but think, you know, in terms of like development and in terms of what that's like for your dad and how that also when we talk about intergenerational trauma, right?
• 25:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is its own kind of intergenerational information or lack of information right that was passed down and the other thing that I think is important that you know is kind of related to this and this is something we talk about a lot in our podcast like kids always know when something's up they may not know what it is but kids know when there's a disturbance in the force kids know when mom is pretending she's happy but she's not
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: kids know when they're not being presented with a reality that matches what they feel.
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, anyone who's been around a child knows that they feel crazy shit, like that doesn't have any relation to anything that's going on, like sometimes they'll be like, this spaceship didn't land the way I, you know, like whatever.
• 26:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I have children.
• 26:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I know this is how it goes.
• 26:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: But when it comes to these sort of like deep interpersonal interactions that we as primates have with our primary caregivers, right?
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: They can tell and even your grandmother's loneliness, right?
• 26:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: It had to go somewhere, you know, and it likely did.
• 26:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not saying she didn't do her best because of course she did, but I wouldn't be surprised, you know, if that's part of the story of these siblings is just something was like, a little bit, or she was stressed, or like maybe it was this, you know, and it's like also, she was going through menopause in a generation when no one gave a shit about women going through menopause.
• 27:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Please, about...
• 27:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's way, if I can tell you even a fraction of what is going on and what our cultural allows us to speak about, like fill that into our grandmother's experience and even our mother's experience.
• 27:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine feeling like you're going crazy and did you make a mistake and should you divorce and murder everyone?
• 27:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Jesus, wow.
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's menopause and they didn't even talk about it.
• 27:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, Grandpa also dealt with that.
• 27:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, Grandma.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_05]: Fatherhood has obviously evolved tremendously.
• 27:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: Over just a few short generations, I mean, according to the economist, millennial dads on average spend more than twice the time parenting their kids than boomer parents.
• 27:49
  [SPEAKER_05]: But roles have changed.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: People are having children less.
• 27:52
  [SPEAKER_05]: And for many reasons, which is pretty scary considering the world has to be pretty fucked to rewire something as primal as wanting to reproduce.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_05]: Learning about my grandpa's involvement has really opened my eyes a lot.
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like I said, talking to my, my grandfather kind of viewed being a dad as kind of showing up for these postcard worthy moments.
• 28:12
  [SPEAKER_05]: And that really provides a lot of context on how my dad has approached fatherhood on his end.
• 28:17
  [SPEAKER_05]: I was never taught to file my taxes, change the oil on my car.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_05]: There was just weirdly, has always been an expectation for me to just know things.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_05]: Even recently on a walk, my dad was talking about his relationship to my boys as a grandfather.
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_05]: And he mentioned that all he really wants to do is be able to take a note where the hike with them before he can't.
• 28:37
  [SPEAKER_05]: And it kind of breaks my heart because there is obviously such deeper, more meaningful connections just waiting there to be made far outside of just taking a hike.
• 28:48
  [SPEAKER_05]: My dad seems stuck fighting the fact that he is getting older.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean for the first couple years of me being a dad, it kind of felt like my dad was show up to Thanksgiving to take some photos of his grandchildren only to boast about them online or share the picks with attractive co-eds at bars and that.
• 29:04
  [SPEAKER_05]: I will say that recently, like very recently, he's seemed to turn a corner, and I don't think I've told him in person, but it's really just filled my heart.
• 29:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: He started inviting himself over to play with the kids instead of us asking if he'd like to.
• 29:21
  [SPEAKER_05]: He's making himself available for real connections and moments of growth with them in a very real way, and I'm just
• 29:29
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm so glad because I would hate to think of a world where after he passes, I'm left explaining to my kids what their grandpa was like and I'm so proud to know that they'll know that firsthand and I really have learned to give my dad so much more grace now that I understand the upbringing he comes from.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: My kids will be able to look back at countless memories playing outside with their loving grandpa the same way.
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: I can look back in mind.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm kind of realizing that I need to be careful not to just fall into hero worship when it comes to chim.
• 30:05
  [SPEAKER_05]: I do think my grandpa was doing this work from a noble place and that the sacrifices he made were heroic, but I also know that he probably leaned into the importance of everything he was doing at work as a way to emotionally protect himself and distance himself from home.
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's funny here how the older you get, the less black and white everything becomes.
• 30:27
  [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't until I got married that I was in my first fight where I realized that both sides were 100% right, and when you realize someone doesn't have to be wrong, that multiple truths can exist at once.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's almost like, as a dad, as far as your kids are concerned, you're destined to be a hero, but damned to be human.
• 30:51
  [SPEAKER_05]: When we first started this podcast, a grandpa being in the CIA, it all seemed cool.
• 30:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: And the more we dive into it, the more all the pressure sinks in, and I'm just understanding our grandfather and how absent he was as a parental figure.
• 31:04
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just really helped me understand my own dad and how he was raised to understand fatherhood.
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's certainly pointed a mirror back at me several times.
• 31:13
  [SPEAKER_05]: Look, everyone is doing the best that they can to their knowledge to better their kids and prepare them for the world.
• 31:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I shouldn't say everyone.
• 31:20
  [SPEAKER_05]: Some parents are a bad chick crazy, but in my reflections, I certainly know that I'm trying my best and like to believe those who came before me as well.
• 31:30
  [SPEAKER_05]: But I also want to be very careful not to fall into the hero we're shooting.
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I think if it was me, if I was given the chance, and had been briefed, and knew that I had the opportunity to preemptively defeat the Russians and ensure that all of my children never knew nuclear war, I would go in a heartbeat.
• 31:49
  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm not about to go join the army now that it's run by crazy people, but I think my first thought would be I need to do everything I can with the skill set that I have to make sure that my kids never come close to knowing the weight that I am carrying, but on the flip side.
• 32:04
  [SPEAKER_05]: your kids just need you.
• 32:08
  [SPEAKER_05]: Now what you do for work, they need to learn from you and that's hard to do if you're physically and emotionally check the fuck out.
• 32:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, imagine a love so strong that you're scared to even get close to it and then look at the work that every generation has done to try and bridge that gap.
• 32:29
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's funny, sometimes it feels like even though we stumbled onto this crazy podcast and it had been fallen headfirst on a rabbit hole filled with danger and espionage and nuclear weapons that I still feel like a big chunk of this is a dead podcast.
• 32:43
  [SPEAKER_05]: I've learned more about fatherhood, the men that shaped me and the world that shaped them all from the secrets that one man could never share with his own sons.
• 32:53
  [SPEAKER_05]: That ulogy on Iwajima will randomly pop up into my head from time to time.
• 32:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: and it feels to ring like a reminder that even if we are embarrassed by our country's administration and the direction that we've been heading, and all of the awful things that our country has done, the heroes when you really look back weren't the politicians, they were the people in the streets, the sons on the battlefield, putting the future and the morality of their children first, that's what makes me feel patriotic, that we continue to fight back,
• 33:26
  [SPEAKER_05]: Rabbi Gittleson closed his eulogy on that beach by saying too much blood has gone into this soil for us to let it lie barren, too much pain and heartache have fertilized the earth on which we stand and we solemnly swear, this shall not be in vain.
• 33:42
  [SPEAKER_05]: Out of this and from the suffering and sorrow of those who mourn, this will come, we promise, the birth of a new freedom for all humanity
• 33:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: down.
• 33:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: He told us he said, I'm doing stuff that's a super secret.
• 34:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm working on stuff that I can't tell you about, but it'll be revealed at some point in time and you'll know that I was part of that group.
• 34:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: We pretty much ignored it and it's like, okay, yeah, sure.
• 34:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever that.
• 34:21
  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, thanks for listening to this week's episode.
• 34:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: Be sure to follow my, I'm on all of your socials and check out her podcast, Mind B. Alex Breakdown, where she has interviewed more than a few people that have worked with the CIA.
• 34:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: This series is hosted by myself, Hunter Hill, my sister, Kayl and Hill, and is a nothing to see here, production.
• 34:38
  [SPEAKER_05]: Executively produced by Hunter Hill, Kaelan Hill, Eddo Sik, and produced by Jess Sunemfeld-Jallis.
• 34:45
  [SPEAKER_05]: Video interviews were produced by Kita Mescaro, and if you're enjoying the show, please be sure to follow the podcast, leave us a review, and subscribe wherever you are listening.
• 34:54
  [SPEAKER_05]: It really does make a huge difference, and helps other people discover the story.
• 34:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: You can also join our sub-stech community for exclusive content, including source documents, extended celebrity interviews behind the scenes updates, and much more.
• 35:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: And one last thing, every episode that will be coming out as either been recorded in my tiny home office or running and running it while out on the road.
• 35:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: So thank you so much for being here as my sister and I unravel this crazy story.
• 35:22
  [SPEAKER_05]: Hope to see you next week as we dive even deeper into this secret.