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Not So Sweet Revenge · Why We Do What We Do

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  You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome to Why we do
• 0:16
  what we do. I am your retaliating host, Abraham, and I am
• 0:21
  your so mad ho sheene. Oh. We're a psychology podcast. We talk
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  about the things that people do and the things the animals do, and sometimes
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  we talk about philosophy. Sometimes we talk about diagnoses. Sometimes we talk about
• 0:35
  the ugliest of emotions, which will be what we talk about today. Revengeance.
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  Revengeance. We're not prevengers, we're avengers. Yeah, and we've got
• 0:46
  a halt and we've got a hold. And his name is Justin and he
• 0:49
  does all of our sounds. So thank you Justin for that true story,
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  true story. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. We're
• 0:55
  so happy to have you here. We unpack all these psychological concepts. We
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  try and do it about less than an hour. Sometimes we go way over
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  that. And as we said, we're talking about revenge today. Vengeance.
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  Yes, if you're joining us for the first time, thank you so much.
• 1:08
  If you'd like to support the show, you can join us on Patreon,
• 1:11
  pickup some merch, leave a rating and review, tell a friend,
• 1:14
  do all those things. But first I would like to wish you a happy
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  Don't step on a bee Day? Yeah, that would hoot. Would hurt
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  for you or the bee? Probably both both. I don't want to be
• 1:25
  stung by a bee. I don't like being I don't like being be stung.
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  It's not my favorite, understandable, it's just the be getting back at
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  you. Yeah. It's also International Nikola Tesla Day, which is fun.
• 1:36
  It's National Kitten Day. Oh that's adorable. Yeah, that's great. I
• 1:41
  think that's great. It's National Pina Colada Day. I hope I never had
• 1:45
  to serve a penal klota again. I did that for like a summer and
• 1:48
  it was the worst peanut colota summer. It's Teddy Bear's Picnic Day. I
• 1:52
  don't know what that means, but I'm assuming it's you include your teddy bears
• 1:55
  and a picnic. Sure, that's my assumption. It's Pick Blueberries Day,
• 2:00
  which is delicious and I love that. Very good. US Energy Independence Day,
• 2:06
  Get on that grid, get off the other grids. Yeah, it's
• 2:08
  funny to think that that's like a thing that they're celebrating, because you know,
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  I mean, let's we're not really we're not really independent from other energy
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  it is air Conditioning Appreciation Days. As a Floridian myself, that is every
• 2:22
  day. Yeah, because it is wildly hot down here right now. Yeah,
• 2:27
  as they're now having to update the maps for like what regions are considered
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  to have what like rain, and what types of regions they are because the
• 2:36
  climate is changing. We can all get on board with air Conditioning Appreciation Days
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  most definitely. So for some reason, it is be nice to New Jersey
• 2:44
  week, so you get those week New Jersey. Yeah, that's it.
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  That's it Jersey. It's a creative maladjustment day. Is dog days of summer.
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  Sure, I mean sure, why these days? Who knows? But
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  that's what it is. It's freedom week. So the week that this comes
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  out, you've you've already maybe lost some limbs during fourth of July, so
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  maybe maybe that's what it is. Yeah, that's my freedom week. Yeah,
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  yeah, exactly. It is National Aborigines and Islanders Day Observance Committee Week.
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  That's a lot of words. There's so many words in that we don't
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  even really know what we're celebrating there. It's a National Fairier's Week, Okay,
• 3:23
  it is Nude Recreation weekend. Fun go back and listen to our episode
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  on nudism. Yeah, oh that was such a great episode too. That
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  was so fun And then is Operation Safe Driver Week so excellent? Now it's
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  funny think that like maybe people are driving in the nude? Is that safe
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  though in their cars? Ac that would that would have to be how that
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  takes it takes place. Yeah, anyway, we just like to celebrate those
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  holidays because you know, it's a thing that we can do. And part
• 3:53
  of what we like to boast is that we help you be better at trivia
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  sometimes. So now you know if the week it is, yep, if
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  that comes up in something and maybe what weak it is, and so there's
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  that if you're all caught up and everything. But as I said, we
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  are talking about revenge, and the reason I wanted to talk about this is
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  I think that there's been a lot of talk. I mean, I think
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  this is the thing first of all, that we as humans experience and do
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  a lot of. And second, it feels like it's become increasingly relevant recently
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  with just a lot of talk in the news about certain people who are talking
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  about getting revenge. And so it had me thinking about revenge. It had
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  me at a heightened awareness of other people talking about a revenge, and it's
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  just kind of around us a lot. You know. It's a thing that
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  I think about a lot working in therapy, because what I find is that
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  when I'm working with families and something goes wrong, or like working with teachers
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  or whoever, like, I find a lot of people really want like there
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  to be justice, like it goes it's this idea that like, oh no,
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  the skills are not bou so I need to take it upon myself to
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  balance the scales. And so I see this a lot, a like low
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  level, low magnitude types of forms. Yeah, you know, not to
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  the point where it's like I'm going to get back at them and make their
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  life a living hell. Like it's nothing like that, but there is that
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  low level of like having to balance the scales that people tend to have because
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  they feel like stuff is off kilter because people quote unquote got away with stuff,
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  you know. And so I see this a lot like in day to
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  day discussions with folks. That's a great point and actually I kind of think
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  now I would like to do a whole episode on the concept of justice,
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  which I mean is kind of there's a lot going to be a lot of
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  overlap with our discussion today. Yeah, although yeah, it does have its
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  kind of unique history because obviously we have an entire system of government that is
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  supposed to be dedicated to justice. Now it's just dedicated to political expediency.
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  But they used true justice. Yeah, those are the days. I mean,
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  there's probably a brief would note because like before that, it was just
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  sort of you know, also do anyway, the concept of justice is a
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  fascinating one, and there's thinking about something that's like what is being just?
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  What is being fair? What is being forgiving? What is being compassionate?
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  And I think those are kind of wrapped up in the idea of having a
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  system of justice and what it means to get justice and what that what we
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  feel like. But what we're we're actually tackling today specifically, is this idea
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  of revenge, which is inherently linked to that. Right. It's this like
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  I'm gonna get back at you thing, right, And so I think today
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  what we're gonna ask is what is revenge? What are the pros and cons
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  of revenge? How does it affect us? And why do we do it?
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  Right? That is the name of the show. Yeah, why it
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  is that we do the things. That's right, That's what I should have
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  called it. I don't know why I picked the title off the song.
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  Yeah, all right, so let's actually start by telling a quick story here.
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  So there's a story that I found that as I was pulling in some
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  notes from this about this this woman named Carla. She's out a stopplight.
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  She gets rear ended, and she gets out of her car and the person
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  that re rended her also get out of the car, and apparently there's some
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  kind of exchange. They're yelling at each other, like you have a car
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  and like you stop too fast or something, you know whatever. They're yelling
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  at each other, and essentially it escalates to at some point, the second
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  girl, the one who did the render, and slaps the first girl.
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  Okay, so the first girl, who already is is now feels that she
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  has been wronged by being rear ended, that this was like this person is
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  now responsible for this has now been slapped and is like, oh no,
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  you didn't. And so it turns into a fistfight pretty quickly. But I
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  mean it's also over very quickly because what happened is Carla throws a punch at
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  the person who editor whose name was Regina. This girl falls to the ground,
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  and there's like onlookers, right, this is a screaming match. There's
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  an accident, like people are watching, and so Carla is like punching and
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  kicking this girl in the face and stomach who's like on the ground, Like
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  she's beating this body that's basically laying there, right, And so she's arrested
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  for aggravated assault and says, quote, I wasn't going to let her get
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  away with what she did to me, especially in front of that crowd.
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  End quote. So we hear this, and I think, at least for
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  me, I'm hearing this is petty, stupid, prideful nonsense. I was
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  like, oh yeah, like everyone's taking notes, be like let's get that
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  girl's name and number. I want to be friends with her now, Like
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  yeah, what is what is your actual thinking? I don't know. I
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  feel like there's just there's no logic at all to that kind of reasoning,
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  and it just it's really sad to hear that, Like it would even turn
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  to that. There is a version of me, Shane that relates to this
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  historically. Yeah, yeah, Like there's a part of me where I'm like
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  Oh, if this were Shane when he was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years
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  old, then sure, like I could see a fistfight ensuing, right like
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  if somebody But to be fair, if somebody threw a punch at me,
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  then yes, I'm gonna defend myself, right Like I think about that version
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  of me now today, I'm like, I don't want to fight anybody,
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  Like, what are we doing. We're adults here, so like you know
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  and kind of going like as like a mature, wiser wizard than I am,
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  I kind of go, no, I don't relate to that as myself
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  today, Like I can understand it, but I don't. I'm not that
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  person. And so but I think a lot of people who are listening and
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  hear that story are probably going, yeah, I get it, I would
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  do that or that's me, Like there's like some level of relation to that
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  or at least that feeling of wanting to get back at somebody totally yeah,
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  exactly right is I think that that story will connect with a lot of people,
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  even if it's not who they are now or like right in this moment,
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  they could maybe see themselves in that situation and a similar thing. And
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  like I know, yeah, exactly for myself at some point in my life
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  that maybe could have been me. But I've also been a pacifist for so
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  long at this point that I also can't. Like it's harder for me to
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  even imagine reacting way, you know, like I'm not gonna start punching it,
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  Like, let's just say somehow I was so enraged that I even threw
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  one punch. Once they're on the ground, I'm like, I'm not going
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  to be punching and kicking someone who's actually on the ground, Like, what's
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  wrong anyway. Normally, when we start these kinds of discussions, we want
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  to kick it off with talking about a definition, right, And that's because
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  we need to distinguish our terms. We need to understand the parameters, what
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  it includes, was it doesn't include, and that by itself can help us
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  both illuminate that concept so that we're really clear about what we're talking about,
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  but also it allows us to poke holes in that concept, which is a
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  fun way to discuss it. But rather than just give a definition, I'm
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  going to do a little bit of walking backward through non examples for just just
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  a minute. So bear with us, because I think it helps actually underscore
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  what revenge is by ruling out the things that it's not, by basically saying,
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  like, let's start with just a piece of it and then expand it
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  out until we get to what it includes and what it doesn't, right exactly.
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  So I think that we can intuitively understand what revenge is. I don't
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  think that's a difficult concept for people to understand, But I think where it
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  gets difficult is distinguishing the use cases that can help not only pinpoint a good
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  definition, but lay the foundation for how to start to understand this topic.
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  So I think it's kind of like, you know what pornography is, but
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  it's hard to describe or define. Like that's kind of what revenge is.
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  It's like, you know what it is, but it might be a little
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  bit hard to define without some more context. Eventually, I think because of
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  that quote, I'm just going to do a mini on pornography, like you
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  need to just do it. I think we probably just need to do a
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  whole series on it because it's a whole thing that's fair, but just for
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  the definition part. Yeah, oh yeah. So going back to revenge,
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  let's start with no context, right, So we have person A does something
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  to harm person B. That's all you get, is that revenge. Well,
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  maybe what's immediately clear from that example is we need to know something more
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  about the situation to be able to call it revenge. Just because personal harm
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  person B. I don't know, maybe there's revenge, it's not clear,
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  So that by itself is insufficient. We can't just say harm has happened,
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  right right, So then let's add a little bit of context. Imagine that
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  we set an expectation for a child that they must put their toys away before
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  going to bed. They don't put the toys away, So we take the
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  toys away for a brief period of time and later return them. Is that,
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  by definition revenge? It sounds like an attempt to punishment. But yeah,
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  you know, I would think most people would hear that and think,
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  no, right, like they're gonna they're gonna here, like you take it.
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  You basically told the kid this is the expectation. They don't do the
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  thing, and then you take away the toys as a consequence, because like,
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  look, these have to be these have to be picked up. They're
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  not picked up. They go away and we'll bring them back later, but
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  for now they're lost. People are not thinking like, oh, yeah,
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  you really got that kid good. You know. Instead it's like, what
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  was the intention of doing that? Okay, So let's go to a second
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  scenario. Imagine we have an employee, maybe coworker, maybe with a supervisor
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  whatever. They're constantly late to work and after several instances of this, and
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  let's say like egregiously late, they're like half an hour late. Yeah,
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  right after several instances of this, we're like, okay, we have to
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  write you up. This is happening too much. Is the supervisor getting revenge?
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  I mean, like you could see how it reads like that, But
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  at the same time, it's like, you know, that's again that's that
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  blurry line of like, well, is this revenge? And there are people
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  that will say, oh, that's just revenge. You're just trying to get
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  You're just trying to get me for whatever reason, like you just don't like
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  me, and da da da dah. That's retaliation and all that fun stuff.
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  Right. I've heard employees that say stuff like that often. I think
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  what you might say is then the employee might try to get revenge, but
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  the write up in this case, it feels to me it's like, I
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  mean, certainly it could be revenge, right, Like, that could be
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  what's going on here, but it also is like, that's also what's going
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  to happen in most employment situations. If you're constantly like late, you're gonna
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  get in trouble right up, my be the best thing that could happen to
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  you in those circumstances, right, Right, So I think it's just worth
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  considering, Like, you know, it could be it could be revenge,
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  but like by itself, it feels like that's not enough. I think what
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  we have in here is there is often the temptation or the inclination to sort
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  of conflate revenge with punishment. Yes, but both of these examples that we've
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  provided, looking at the punishment side of things, right, it's the we're
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  trying to have some kind of consequence that decreases the likelihood of that behavior being
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  a problem in the future. But they're not really in what we're thinking of
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  revenge. We're talking about people who are getting back at someone or getting their
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  vengeance, right. You Know, when we use these examples and it comes
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  up, there's always that question of like whether or not somebody is trying to
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  get back at you, like or trying to get back at that person.
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  Like, one thing that comes up a lot is when ads play, it
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  feels like somebody's trying to get back at us. So well, luckily you
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  always write this in the notes that I always have a hard time saying this
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  word colloquially speaking. That was good. Hey, thanks, my mouth works.
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  Sometimes we tend to talk about punishment as a penalty for some violated expectation,
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  in which the punishment is intended to teach something about the future behavior.
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  But in both the scenarios that we just kind of referenced, the punishment may
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  be and also hopefully is delivered without anger. Right. Typically, when we're
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  delivering a punishment based situation or like trying to impose some kind of outcome as
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  a result of not following expectations, they're typically delivered without anger. When they
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  are delivered with anger, it's a little bit iffy, exactly, right.
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  Yeah, Like if you imagine the parent is like yelling at the you know,
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  they're like, I'm checking your tours away, Like it's gonna feel maybe
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  a bit more yucky and sort of on the revenge spectrum of things, right,
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  But they're like, oh, that was what happens like I told you,
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  and if you're not going to do it, then that's what happens.
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  So I think oftentimes in those punishment Now, punishment certainly can be delivered with
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  anger, sure it can function that way, but oftentimes punishment is specifically calculated
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  to be delivered in a specific way to have a specific outcome. Like,
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  Okay, we're almost strategizing here, we want to prevent this thing from happening
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  in the future. Let's like, what is going to be the outcome that
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  we deliver that's going to have that effect. Sure, So, of course
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  in both examples, they could be done as active revenge. But let's continue
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  for a second. So maybe maybe they were intended to cause harm. Okay,
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  So, like, as an example, let's use a military sniper killing
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  a target or murder attacking a victim. Are these scenarios, these circumstances,
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  Are these considered revenge? I mean, it's it, you know, as
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  we start to unpack this, it's it's hard to say, right. So
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  it's like, okay, if we just started so we went the like punishment
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  route, Okay, now let's just go someone's just doing harm to someone route,
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  Like, Okay, maybe maybe what revenge is is it is intentionally causing
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  harm. I'm like, okay, Well, a military snipper like target,
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  what it like? They could feel bad about that, right, they could
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  have protest against that. There have been a sign to do that thing,
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  murder, attacking a victim. It could be out of revenge, right,
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  that could be why they did it, but it also might be for any
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  other number of reasons that people do that sort of thing. I guess,
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  right, So, like by itself, it feels like it's insufficient to call
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  it revenge like like it could be, but not in most cases. And
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  I think that that sort of highlights is it must mean that there's something about
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  whether it is felt to be deserved harm, right, the recipient deserves that
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  harm for something that they've done. So I think we've done some good sort
• 17:40
  of stripping away like what it isn't. So let's let's step away from the
• 17:42
  what it isn't format and start talking about I think, just what else is
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  entailed and trying to get the definition of revenge right. So it's not just
• 17:52
  that they did something to deserve it, it's whether it is perceived as intention
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  and if they have agencies. So basically, what I'm saying is like,
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  it gets even worse when the avenger, the person who is in you know,
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  engaging in the vengeance type of behavior, engaging in the revenge, is
• 18:07
  feeling angry. So there is this kind of conversation around so much of it
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  is implementing this stuff based on the fact that somebody else deserves it because they
• 18:18
  have wronged somebody and I'm angry about it. Yeah, And so this part
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  about the intention and agency is really important because let's say, for example,
• 18:26
  children, we tend not to try and get revenge on children. They often
• 18:30
  don't know any better. It's for yourself. I'm just kidding. I love
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  children. They often don't know any better. Oftentimes it's just being reckless.
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  Like we look at that and we think of probably not trying to get revenge
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  people with intellectual disabilities when they like do something that's like this is not something
• 18:48
  that's normally acceptable, and not that it is acceptable, but we're not actually
• 18:52
  trying to get revenge on them. We understand that for their circumstance there maybe
• 18:56
  was a lack of intentionality or like something there, So like the purveyor of
• 19:00
  retribution must perceive that it was done intentionally or recklessly and therefore the recipient deserves
• 19:07
  it, so like they had intention, they had agency, or like.
• 19:11
  Another one is often people who are significantly inebriated, they might do something and
• 19:17
  although that can be really frustrating and really upsetting unless it's vehicle related, most
• 19:22
  of the time like people will sort of give them a bit of like,
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  Okay, I understand in most circumstances you wouldn't have done this, but in
• 19:30
  this case, you were inebriated. You shouldn't have been inebriated, and certainly
• 19:32
  not to the level that you were, so that's a problem. But like
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  you did something bad, we're not necessarily going to try and get revenge because
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  we know that you were under the influence of whatever you were under the influence
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  of right. And then there's this whole aspect of the idea that like revenge
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  seems warranted or like called for, and increasingly so as long as the action
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  done is perceived as wrongful to the person now seeking the revenge right, so
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  they had to be harmed in a way that felt wrongful and unjust right,
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  So this leads us to a close to an official definition of this right.
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  So definition of revenge or vengeance would be to do harm to someone who is
• 20:17
  perceived to have done wrongful, unjust harm to us. And that is with
• 20:22
  intention and with agency, right, Like, like you just mentioned, like
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  we tend to give people more grace and compassion when we feel like they are
• 20:30
  not in control of the behavior that is wrong. Like that doesn't necessarily excuse
• 20:33
  the behavior, but we tend to be like, oh, okay, Like,
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  if you'd have done this under any other circumstances, we would be having
• 20:40
  a long conversation about this. Yeah, exactly so, And I think that's
• 20:42
  unique. That's kind of an interesting aspect of this as considering like under what
• 20:48
  condition does it happen? And it's kind of a very specific niche, but
• 20:52
  it's a kind of very specific niche of circumstances that happens a lot a lot,
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  and so, like, I think we experience opportunities for thinking about revenge
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  even when it's not directly related to us throughout the day. And a good
• 21:07
  example of this too is like we tell stories about revenge all the time.
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  Stories throughout human history love revenge. Yeah, motive as a theme. We
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  were just talking before we hit record, John Wick, like the very popular
• 21:22
  movie series all about revenge. Yeah, John Wick, Monkey Man on a
• 21:27
  newer one that came out. Take the Taken movies. Oh my god,
• 21:30
  taking movies. Yeah, like I mean the Avengers. Yeah. In the
• 21:34
  name, the literal point of them getting together was to beat up Loki.
• 21:38
  Yeah. Yeah, is to get revenge. Yeah, man on fire.
• 21:41
  And then like many Shakespearean plays, Hamlet, many Greek stories throughout time,
• 21:47
  there's is a hugely popular motif to set up storytelling. Yeah, that people
• 21:52
  resonate with the person who's getting revenge. Yeah, like they're on the side
• 21:57
  of the venge seeker. Right. The comic book Deadly Class. Deadly Classes
• 22:02
  is like an entire series that is dedicated to one person seeking revenge. Okay,
• 22:06
  it's great, it's a great series, but it is one that's like,
• 22:07
  oh, here's another one. I think, isn't Ninja Scrolls too,
• 22:11
  like like anime, Like there's all kinds of there's there's so much out there.
• 22:15
  Don't quote me on that, because I'm not an anime. I want
• 22:19
  people to get mad of me. But I think Ninja Scrolls is like a
• 22:22
  revenge story. Okay. I was actually just thinking as you started saying that,
• 22:26
  I think you could really say that The Dark Tower is a revenge story.
• 22:30
  Oh my god. Yeah, like both sides, like both your antagonists
• 22:34
  and your protagonists are getting revenge against one another the whole time, forever,
• 22:38
  forever, and an endless struggle of cycles of vengeance. So yes, just
• 22:45
  let it go, you know, just let it go. That's actually you
• 22:48
  know what's funny is now that you said that the entire story is that,
• 22:52
  right, The moral of the story is just let it go. Yeah,
• 22:55
  Yeah, it's great. Yeah, And I think several state and King stories
• 23:00
  do that, And I think a lot of stories do that, Like that's
• 23:02
  not unique to him and at all, Like this is a very very common
• 23:06
  thing that we see. Yeah, and I think also, as you said,
• 23:08
  like I think he has the underlying like we seek the revenge, but
• 23:12
  the morals let it go. I think of the Green Mile is kind of
• 23:15
  a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, there's a lot of
• 23:19
  like sort of pop culture type references and literary references. But the other thing
• 23:25
  to think about too is that, like, although we do have these stories,
• 23:27
  a lot of them are sort of the protagonists seeking revenge and we identify
• 23:30
  with them. We also have a lot of stories that talk about like the
• 23:33
  recipient of revenge and we identify with them instead. It's all in how the
• 23:37
  writer wants to tell the story, and I think we have there's very good
• 23:41
  examples of us having mixed interpretations of what we think about revenge in our culture.
• 23:48
  Sometimes revenge is good. We have the bad guys that get their comeuppance,
• 23:53
  the good guys get the bad guys, right, is a sort of
• 23:56
  common way. But then we also have revenge as fearing bad. It can
• 24:00
  appear petty and childish and just spitefully mean, you know, and like inappropriate,
• 24:07
  and then sometimes it's kind of in this neutral gray zone. And I
• 24:11
  think that's very common when we're sort of telling historical narratives about two warring factions
• 24:17
  where they both feel aggrieved toward one another, and it just sort of seems
• 24:21
  like they're both trying to settle that grievance, but they're kind of going back
• 24:23
  and forth, and sometimes one sort of getting a leg up and then the
• 24:26
  other. Kind of makes me think a little bit about Star Wars, although
• 24:30
  it's very clearly who the bad guys were in that, Yeah, the Jedi,
• 24:33
  the gi Oh got me there. And then there's these these moments and
• 24:41
  stories where we see our hero or a protagonist. Often they do this has
• 24:45
  an opportunity to exact their revenge and then they avoid it, And then we
• 24:51
  see this as being like this almost saintly, very compassionate, very mature sort
• 24:56
  of approach. But we could also see someone who had an opportunity to get
• 25:00
  the revenge and didn't and see that as being weak or cowardly and ineffectual.
• 25:06
  Yeah, it's plays out a lot of different ways. This is really not
• 25:08
  a clear cut way that we sort of think about and talk about it in
• 25:12
  our storytelling well, and I think there is something to be said too,
• 25:15
  like to the point of like sometimes we see it's good, sometimes we see
• 25:18
  it's bad. And I think it really depends on what side you're on of
• 25:21
  the moral argument, right, Like there's got to be because they think about
• 25:25
  it's the same mechanism, right, But when it's a bad guy getting their
• 25:27
  come up and so it's justice. Yeah, when it's you know, somebody
• 25:30
  coming after me to intentionally harm me, then it's revenge, you know.
• 25:34
  So I think there's also that framing device that changes the way that we perceive
• 25:38
  it and how much of it can we accept, not even just like how
• 25:42
  we enact it or how people enact it, but like what we will accept
• 25:47
  as a reasonable response to a situation, you know, like okay, you
• 25:51
  know, and there is like going back to somebody broke the law, they
• 25:55
  go to jail. Is that in itself revenge? Not necessarily? But then
• 25:57
  when you think of like the movie Death Sentence with Kevin Bacon, where you
• 26:03
  know, if you've never seen that, he his son is killed by some
• 26:07
  some gang members like during like a like a robbery, and he ends up
• 26:11
  the whole movie is a revenge movie where he is going and finding these gang
• 26:15
  members and killing them all. So you know, it's a great movie,
• 26:18
  great, great, great movie, but it is one of those ones where
• 26:19
  you're like you're rooting for the guy who's literally murdering everybody. Yeah, yeah,
• 26:25
  and we're going that's good, and we're going that's good. And it's
• 26:26
  like, no, that's not. That's not good. That's bad path that
• 26:30
  go down. But you know, it's it's it's really how how it's framed,
• 26:32
  because like you could frame that a is going he's just getting justice for
• 26:34
  his son's death. Something you said though, is so important and that you
• 26:38
  were sort of alluding to in that story is that like in real life outside
• 26:44
  of stories and movies, everyone is the hero of their own story. Yeah.
• 26:48
  There. I think there are circumstances where it's pretty easy to say you
• 26:52
  were in the wrong, and there are people who will even admit I was
• 26:55
  in the wrong right. But a lot of the time, when we're in
• 26:59
  these situations where there's like a back and forth revenge seeking going on, both
• 27:06
  people think they're on the right and honestly, if you were to consider that
• 27:08
  other person's perspective and what they're dealing with from your revenge, and then I
• 27:15
  think you start to understand, like nobody's in the right here. Right,
• 27:18
  you know, there is no right side of this. This is just and
• 27:22
  sometimes like it's just a big complicated mess, like maybe one person started the
• 27:26
  grievance, but then the other person, you know, they followed up with
• 27:30
  a revenge, and then they just go back and forth until they've both done
• 27:33
  so much harm to each other that it doesn't even matter where it started.
• 27:37
  They both did terrible things, right, and the person who started it probably
• 27:41
  again it was not in bad faith, like they probably did something that seemed
• 27:45
  like it was appropriate and justified to them at the time. And again We're
• 27:49
  not trying to excuse bad behavior here, but I think oftentimes we get into
• 27:53
  these conflicts where they're totally unnecessary because both sides have done wrong and you just
• 28:03
  have to stop and break the cycle. Right. Speaking of breaking the cycle,
• 28:07
  here's an ad welcome back from that broken cycle. We'll reinstate cycle now,
• 28:19
  all right. I like that. So some other things sort of talking
• 28:23
  about here is and considering an understanding revenge is a lot of the research and
• 28:30
  science, and I guess you could say observation loosely speaking, has sort of
• 28:33
  classified what people tend to do and the revenge seeking, and I think that
• 28:38
  that does help illustrate what we're talking about here and why it matters. Right,
• 28:44
  So, people tend to exact revenge more when there is less of an
• 28:48
  opportunity or less of a likelihood that the recipient of said revenge will actually seek
• 28:52
  further revenge against them. Basically, what this is saying is people are more
• 28:56
  likely to get revenge if there's no return on that revenge, right, Like
• 29:02
  you are not going to get back at me if I act on this,
• 29:04
  this is gonna be the end of it. People are more likely to do
• 29:07
  it. Yeah, So often there's just an imbalance of dynamics here, so
• 29:14
  they're more likely to try and get revenge when they're larger, stronger, they
• 29:18
  have more physical or metaphorical power, they've got better weapons or better defenses.
• 29:22
  So like in the example you said of like when you're seventeen years old,
• 29:26
  like someone rereends you and you, guys, get out that person slaps you
• 29:30
  in the face. Let's also say that they're standing at like seven foot six,
• 29:33
  they weigh two hundred pounds and or three hundred pounds in the air professional
• 29:37
  boxer, Like, are you going to try and get revenge on them for
• 29:40
  that slap? No, but I will definitely. I would like at that
• 29:42
  time, I would have left them with something that would have made them question
• 29:45
  everything, Like I would have like dropped some psychological bomb on them somewhere,
• 29:49
  because that's that's the kind of That's the kind of revenge I like, is
• 29:52
  the one that's like a deep seated, like it stays with you forever.
• 29:56
  Yeah, to put the plant a little nugget that has them a question reality.
• 30:00
  Yeah, Hey, yeah, it's great. That's my favorite. Yeah.
• 30:03
  So yeah, like they're not going to do the when there's an imbalance
• 30:08
  in that and you there's a high likelihood that if you try and get revenge,
• 30:12
  they're going to get revenge back. People tend not to try and get
• 30:15
  revenge. Yeah, and so it's like again, now this is illustrating that,
• 30:18
  like revenge is the big guy picking on the little guy, and like,
• 30:22
  yeah, is that who you want to be? Right? I also
• 30:25
  don't want to be revenged, you know, I don't want to do that,
• 30:30
  and I don't want to be revenge. So and the thing is is
• 30:32
  people tend to seek to inflict harm at as least as as great as the
• 30:36
  original offense, if not greater, so like at least at that level.
• 30:38
  So when people go to get revenge, it's again I kind of mentioned at
• 30:42
  the top of the show, where it's that balance is off, so they're
• 30:47
  trying to rebalance the scales. So it's like it has to be tit for
• 30:49
  tat, you know, eye for an eye type of situation like oh you
• 30:53
  did this, so here's equal and swift response to that situation, yeah or
• 30:59
  more or like it's either like you're gonna get You're gonna get it, or
• 31:02
  I'm gonna make this so bad for you that you'll never do this again,
• 31:06
  Yeah, avenge sevenfold. And then thinking about like where revenge takes place.
• 31:11
  Oftentimes revenge will happen in existing relationships, and I think it's because when you
• 31:15
  have a close relationship with someone, both people are a little bit more vulnerable
• 31:19
  to one another, which means they are a little bit more vulnerable to potential
• 31:23
  harms or interpretations of slights or or wrongs or whatnot. Right, But of
• 31:29
  course this can happen between total strangers, as in our story at the top
• 31:33
  of the episode. It can even happen between nations of people and leaders,
• 31:37
  and it does seem like they're that social aspect can really complicate the dynamic of
• 31:41
  that, right. The neurology studies that we were able to look at neurology
• 31:45
  studies report that people tend to expect a feeling of reward and satisfaction when planning
• 31:51
  revenge. So like, as we're getting it together, like you know,
• 31:53
  Macaulay Culkin is doing his battle plans for the trap houses that he's working in,
• 31:57
  and like he's like, Yeah, I'm gonna ge back of these guys
• 32:00
  for being mean. I take that, Marv. You know, like there
• 32:02
  is like a level of like reward and satisfaction that is expected while you're kind
• 32:07
  of going through the plotting stages right yeah. Now, although often revenge is
• 32:14
  is kind of reactionary, revenge might be a quick response to some perceived slight
• 32:19
  or transgression. Obviously, you can think of revenge is plotted and sort of
• 32:23
  planned out for a really long time. And I think there have been actual
• 32:28
  stories of people who waited, you know, like three decades, and then
• 32:30
  they got back at someone three decades later, they planning their revenge the whole
• 32:36
  entire time. Count them on Christo. That I mean a fictional story,
• 32:39
  but that's the basic idea in there. He's like spends years and years and
• 32:44
  years building his revenge and then once he amasses enough wealth and power, just
• 32:49
  goes around just destroying the lives of every person who was responsible for imprisoning him
• 32:54
  and ruining his life. That's the path I'm on right now. So you
• 33:00
  if you are somebody who has harmed me and you're listening to the show,
• 33:06
  just you wait. I genuinely don't have the energy for that, Like I
• 33:12
  that's something I was I guess we're kind of going through this. I'm like,
• 33:14
  I don't even have like the like, I don't have the mental capacity
• 33:16
  right now to even consider revenge on somebody, let alone the time and the
• 33:22
  response effort. I just can't do it. We're getting too old for this,
• 33:24
  and we're getting too old for revenge. I don't know, I'm just
• 33:27
  you know, I just can't. So let's talk a little bit about the
• 33:30
  pros and cons of revenge, which you know, is funny to think,
• 33:32
  like, what are the pros of revenge? Right? You know, as
• 33:36
  a general rule, these are some benefits that are discussed around this. First,
• 33:38
  it might be that the revenge is rightly justified, like, or it
• 33:43
  could be politically expedient. Right. The idea is like, there's some benefit
• 33:46
  in that you're gonna get what you want out of that situation because it was
• 33:51
  justified. It was helpful from a political standpoint. It's doing something to benefit
• 33:54
  you in that moment. It feels justified. At least it feels righteous,
• 33:59
  right, Yeah, maybe it is not actually, well anyway, that'd be
• 34:04
  a sort of values discussion. Sure. Another potential benefit here, and a
• 34:09
  heavy emphasis on the word potential, is it may create a sense of restoring
• 34:16
  the balance of suffering, which a balance of suffering might be good. Is
• 34:22
  this a band name, an album name, a song name at least,
• 34:25
  oh for sure that sounds like a Black Dolly Murder record that does. Yeah,
• 34:30
  that could be considered a benefit that if it works that way. Is
• 34:34
  this this sort of it levels the scales as yours have you as you've said
• 34:37
  multiple times, now, yeah, Equity theory actually states that people feel distressed
• 34:43
  when they feel like they've been treated unfairly. So if something has happened to
• 34:45
  you and you feel like you've been treated poorly, then yes, this is
• 34:49
  something that will you'll feel some distress around that, and revenge may actually serve
• 34:53
  to alleviate that distress by making the situation more fair by kind of like going
• 34:59
  back and going, Okay, well, now this feels fair because it was
• 35:01
  not fair before. And so all that is to say, when you sort
• 35:05
  of put that all together, that getting revenge may have someone feel better about
• 35:08
  the situation. That's a purported potential potential benefit of getting revenge, right,
• 35:16
  But there are drawbacks obviously. So first, it tends to perpetuate an endless
• 35:22
  cycle of retaliation. I mean, all you got to do is look at
• 35:24
  the hat Fields and the McCoys spanning generations. Yeah, yeah, like for
• 35:30
  real, it was like you murdered my uncle, I'm gonna murder your uncle.
• 35:35
  And they just went on like that for many, many, many decades.
• 35:37
  That is exactly one of the biggest problems with this. It almost always
• 35:42
  results in a back and forth. For not almost always. There are lots
• 35:45
  of instances where it's kind of a one off. Something does something, someone
• 35:50
  does something else, but it can quite easily lead to this just ongoing,
• 35:53
  perpetual like you get back at me, I get back at you for getting
• 35:58
  back at me, and then you get back at me for getting back at
• 36:00
  you for getting back at me, and it just goes on and on.
• 36:02
  Right. Another one is that this is an important one, I think.
• 36:07
  So the avenger tends to feel because they've exacted their revenge, the tendency that
• 36:14
  they've reported is that they actually tend to feel an increased sense of fear that
• 36:19
  they're going to then receive additional retaliation from the recipient of the revenge, and
• 36:23
  that they can actually that fear can persist for a long time. So it's
• 36:27
  like even if they had an immediate like burst of yes, I got back
• 36:30
  at them, then they it turns pretty quickly into what if they try and
• 36:35
  get back at me, Yeah, or someone related to them or in their
• 36:38
  circle does, right, And so like now I'm kind of on a bunch
• 36:43
  of people's hit list, and now I need to watch my back and just
• 36:46
  be constantly on the lookout, and that that fear just sort of carries out
• 36:50
  for a long time. Yeah. Another thing too is the Avenger tends to
• 36:53
  think about it, think about the situation, and think about the revenge and
• 36:57
  the experience aversive emotions for longer. So I was reading that thinking about that.
• 37:00
  I was thinking of the scene and end game Avengers Endgame where Scarlett Witch
• 37:07
  says you took everything from me and Thana says, I don't even know who
• 37:09
  you are. Yeah, Like if that, if that doesn't tell you how
• 37:13
  revenge is so powerful. Like she was like thinking about this forever and He's
• 37:17
  like, nah, I don't even I mean I you know, it was
• 37:22
  like it didn't even impact him, Like it wasn't even not on his register.
• 37:23
  So like the person who was avenging Scarlet Witch was like having all of
• 37:28
  this emotion around this, and Dano's didn't even for a long time, Yeah,
• 37:34
  just carried it with her. Yeah. Another job. I think pretty
• 37:37
  clear drawback to revenge is that, because we talked about how it can happen
• 37:42
  in like interpersonal relationships with people that you know, it can pretty quickly damage
• 37:45
  those relationships, often beyond repair. Now, sometimes there's sort of a dynamic
• 37:51
  in relationship where it's just a lot of back and forth going at each other,
• 37:55
  and that just persists for a long time and it kind of works.
• 37:59
  But when it turns into like a cycle of revenge, and particularly it is
• 38:04
  it escalates, which those things can do, Like it gets to a point
• 38:07
  where it's like that maybe was once a valuable relationship is now both a source
• 38:12
  of distress, fear, frustration, anger, and like misery, and it
• 38:16
  just continues to get worse and worse over time. And it's like now that
• 38:20
  person who was once a friend is now like a bitter enemy and like so
• 38:24
  that and that happens that can happen because of revenge, right, it's bad.
• 38:30
  Another drawback we would argue is that rather than being cathartic, it tends
• 38:35
  to keep feelings of the injury present for longer, Like so it just kind
• 38:39
  of festers and doesn't really get better, Like it doesn't like now I've resolved
• 38:45
  the situation, Now what because you've spent and also you spend so much time
• 38:50
  planning and plotting your revenge and having that feeling around it, Like you're still
• 38:53
  gonna have the feelings about that situation. Yeah, Like it doesn't make you
• 38:58
  feel better that you hurt somebody else. Very rarely does that happen, So
• 39:01
  there is that experience around that too, and very often we come to regret
• 39:07
  those vengeful acts. Like it's in the moment, we're all heated, we're
• 39:10
  all worked up or escalated, and we get we go and flicked our revenge
• 39:16
  and after a while we kind of have to sit with that and feel like
• 39:20
  I wish I hadn't done that, and like the damage is done. You
• 39:23
  can done doo it. There's no control y for this, you know.
• 39:27
  It is just you just have to live with that now and then that's something
• 39:30
  you regret. So it's like try and act less impulsively, right, That's
• 39:36
  what I'm saying, Like just just don't do it, just to try to
• 39:39
  like get get that under control, get that under control, and you know,
• 39:44
  I think at the end of the day, like it can escalate the
• 39:45
  conflict, it can make things way worse because you're just kind of again perpetuating
• 39:50
  that cycle of back and forth, back and forth, back and forth,
• 39:52
  and as a result of that, like, not only do you end up
• 39:55
  getting hurt and the person that you're trying to hurt gets hurt, but people
• 39:58
  around you get hurt. I mean, I think genuinely the Hatfields McCoy is
• 40:02
  like, now that I've brought that up, now that's all I can think
• 40:05
  about as far as like the revenge tale goes, Yeah, because so many
• 40:08
  members of the family ended up getting killed as a result of that back and
• 40:13
  forth between two people. It started with two people and it just turned into
• 40:17
  a family affair, you know. Yeah. I ran into several stories that
• 40:22
  talked about there being some countries where like some people in power have blood feuds
• 40:28
  that have been going on for generations where they're basically killing off, you know,
• 40:32
  groups of people, maybe families, you know, or or some group
• 40:37
  of people that they're killing off members that have just been going gone on for
• 40:39
  decades, right that they've they've been keeping it going. So oh we I
• 40:44
  talked a long time about that TV show Hunters, and the whole premise of
• 40:49
  that show was it was mostly Jewish people. I think it was mostly I
• 40:54
  think there were some people who weren't in like the nineteen sixties, I think
• 41:00
  hunting down x Nazis, yeah, and killing them and like that was the
• 41:04
  whole show. Like the whole premise is sort of John wick Ish in that
• 41:07
  sense, right, the Nazis who survived, who are sort of out and
• 41:09
  about, they were hunting them down, particularly those who were like practice,
• 41:14
  you know, continuing to be Nazis. But also just yeah, so anyway,
• 41:20
  like as you said, like it can escalate and it just gets worse
• 41:22
  and worse and worse, and the conflict grows more and more severe. That's
• 41:25
  also one of the major drawbacks and a major drawback to like having a podcast
• 41:30
  is having to play ads. All right, let's get back to it.
• 41:39
  We're in our home stretch here, I think. Yeah, so let's ask
• 41:43
  the question why why do we revenge? How we revenge? And there is
• 41:47
  the question I've kind of mentioned a couple of times, is that there is
• 41:51
  you know, some folks want to restore balance. They might want to they
• 41:52
  might feel like the scales are unfairly tipped and so they've got to do that
• 41:58
  or what they want to do is they wanted to turn future behavior right.
• 42:00
  So it's like I've got a big stick and I'm gonna swing it right.
• 42:02
  The idea that like, Okay, you got back at me, I'm gonna
• 42:06
  get back at you so bad that you're never gonna want to do this again.
• 42:08
  But this is never born out of observation or research. Like people will
• 42:13
  just often overdo revenge so it's not balanced, so they actually tip the scales
• 42:17
  the other way. And even if it is equated, people will typically not
• 42:22
  report feeling fair or balanced afterwards. So like, even when they do get
• 42:25
  revenge, it doesn't work the way that they think it will. Yeah,
• 42:30
  it doesn't seem to actually restore balance. And another one we mentioned is that
• 42:32
  people will say, oh, I want to deter future problem behavior from occurring
• 42:37
  again, like that's why to get revenge right. Well, the thing is
• 42:42
  like that doesn't seem to hold up. Deterrence seems to fail because again it
• 42:46
  tends to escalate and prolong the conflict and and fight for the retribution. And
• 42:52
  I think this is not something that is lost on people because they walk around
• 42:55
  and fear. People tend to expect further retribution when they've been vengeful right,
• 43:01
  right, They've actually done research on this where not only do they expect more,
• 43:06
  they're more fearful and they expect retaliation when they've exacted their revenge, but
• 43:10
  when they have not been vengeful, they are much less likely to expect any
• 43:15
  further aggression from the original transgressor again if they had not been vengeful. And
• 43:21
  then another reason that it seems like deterrence is not really true and not really
• 43:25
  an actual motive for what's going on here is because in these studies, when
• 43:30
  people have been given an opportunity to seek revenge on a stranger they'd never see
• 43:35
  again, they were much more likely to try and exect revenge, and they
• 43:40
  were more likely to do it more severely, so they would never even have
• 43:45
  a chance to see if this deterrence work. Right, So it's actually pretty
• 43:50
  clear it's not ever being used as a deterrent, not really. It seems
• 43:55
  like the deterrent rationalization is more of just a post talk excuse for saying I
• 44:04
  was angry, I was escalated, I wanted to get back at the person,
• 44:08
  and then to justify that, I'm like, well, this will prevent
• 44:12
  them from doing that again in the future, even though we know that it
• 44:15
  won't. You're more likely to do it if you think you can get away
• 44:17
  with it and not have retribution. And it tends to and in most circumstances,
• 44:22
  it tends to escalate, and most people kind of know that that can
• 44:25
  happen too, so like deterrence is kind of it's just a myth, right,
• 44:31
  Yeah, it's an excuse. I mean, it's an excuse now.
• 44:34
  Oh, Enders Game, that was what I was thinking of when I was
• 44:37
  thinking about this, because an Enders Game, he kind of has this whole
• 44:40
  spiel about like even though he's he's feeling like he's not that violent of a
• 44:45
  person, He's like when he was getting bullied, he's like, I have
• 44:50
  to put that person down so that they can't hit back, And that was
• 44:52
  part of what has them select him as like sort of the leader of things.
• 44:57
  Yeah, is like we want this kid because his ration now is end
• 45:00
  any future threat, and so they're like answer genocide. Yeah, what a
• 45:07
  wild book. Yeah, it's a great book, but it's it's that series
• 45:12
  is interesting dark. It's dark, yeah, and it doesn't really get lighter
• 45:15
  as you go through the rest of the series. No, it's weirder,
• 45:19
  weirder, Yeah, for sure, Now, revenge generally happens in the context
• 45:22
  of an angry emotion, and so anger is often a key part, if
• 45:27
  not central, to revenge, and that in itself is a pretty significant driver
• 45:31
  for people. But people are angry, they tend to want to do things,
• 45:36
  and maybe they don't think about the outcomes of those things and whatnot.
• 45:38
  But when people are angry, they tend to do a lot of things,
• 45:42
  and that in itself that burns out very quickly if you want to kind of
• 45:45
  use the idea of like emotion as like a motivation and stuff like that.
• 45:49
  But yeah, like basically, like emotion is so fluid, like you know,
• 45:53
  when you read stuff like on Act and the kind of talk about the
• 45:55
  idea that like emotions are really more like visitors that kind of like magnify certain
• 46:00
  motivations at a time. Anger is one that's like a quick visitor that magnifies
• 46:05
  the need for revenge, and then it goes away and then you get revenge,
• 46:07
  and then you're left with the fallout and no anger from that situation or
• 46:12
  maybe some like resentment or whatever. You know, there's a lot of kind
• 46:15
  of weird stuff to unpack inside of that. Yeah, very much, so
• 46:19
  Another thing that can happen with revenge is that there can be a very important
• 46:24
  and significant social component, like what will people think if I don't retaliate.
• 46:30
  I think I see this a lot in politics, right, yes, And
• 46:34
  there's this sort of like I have to look like I'm taking action Otherwise people
• 46:38
  will think I'm weak, or they'll think I'm ineffectual, or they'll think,
• 46:42
  you know, I can't handle this, or they'll basically say like you need
• 46:46
  to get back at this person or entity or group of people or whatever.
• 46:52
  And so I think there's a social component of not wanting to appear, not
• 46:57
  wanting to feel embarrassed, wanting to avoid them, ra not wanting to appear
• 47:00
  weak. That with those things, I'm kind of like, honestly in my
• 47:06
  mind what people think right like that really is not when when the difference is
• 47:14
  like someone's life is on the line or someone's going to be mad at me,
• 47:19
  I'll take someone being mad at me right right. And again, it
• 47:22
  is a values thing. It's a big values thing. The other thing,
• 47:24
  too, is just thinking about like it does escalating all that. So it's
• 47:27
  like, am I willing to risk escalating this situation so I don't look bad,
• 47:30
  and I think most people are not most, but I've seen it happen
• 47:35
  a lot in very public forums, right exactly. It's unfortunate because people care
• 47:39
  so much about how they're perceived that they yeah, it serves as a detriment.
• 47:45
  Yeah. I think one of the more interesting things that came out of
• 47:46
  this is that people who enjoy, like they self report enjoying hurting people,
• 47:52
  also tend to report supporting revenge seeking behavior. So what does that say about
• 47:57
  revenge? Do you want to be in that group? You want to be
• 47:59
  in the group of being people that like are totally good and think it's okay
• 48:01
  and actually really enjoy hurting other people, because that's the people that are like,
• 48:06
  that's they're the revenge approvers. Yeah. Yeah. You go to a
• 48:08
  party, you meet a person, and you say to what do you like
• 48:10
  to do? I like to hurt people. You're like, oh, let's
• 48:13
  be friends. I like to revenge. Yeah, I want to be friends
• 48:16
  with you. You like to hurt people, right, Like, you don't
• 48:21
  want to be in that camp, Like people who report enjoyed hurting people are
• 48:24
  psychopaths, right, like right, And that's a very loaded thing to even
• 48:28
  say on a show like this, and I think we need to address psychopathy
• 48:30
  at some point in the future. But I think speaking more loosely and off
• 48:35
  the cuff of like that shouldn't be your idol, right, you know,
• 48:39
  like let's let's not aspire to that. Yeah, it's bad news. There's
• 48:44
  also whenever anything happens that humans do, they're like, why did we evolve
• 48:47
  this? And I mean, on the one hand, I can understand we're
• 48:51
  obviously doing it, so it was a product of evolution in one capacity or
• 48:53
  another. But there's one thing about this is that biologically, this is not
• 49:00
  entirely unique to humans. Right. There are many examples of animals who have
• 49:04
  attacked other animals when those animals stole their food. There's even there's like hyenas
• 49:08
  stole a kill from some lions, so the lions killed the hyaenas, and
• 49:13
  it's like, right, were they seeking revenge? We don't know, but
• 49:15
  it does seem like there was like a really targeted I'm going after you after
• 49:20
  you took my food type of thing. And most the examples that I came
• 49:22
  across were food related. And then there was an interesting one too with recess
• 49:28
  monkeys, where if one of the one member of the group found food and
• 49:31
  didn't share that food with a group or like alert that group to the food
• 49:35
  and they found out, then they would like beat up that monkey. Oh
• 49:38
  yeah, so there was like some amount of revenge there. So what aspect
• 49:44
  of this is biological? I mean, obviously we have the capacity for it.
• 49:47
  So there's that right right now. This was when it comes to revenge.
• 49:52
  It's almost certainly cultural too, when we really get into it. Possibly
• 49:55
  had to turn it first for those who would selfishly attack others to take resources.
• 50:00
  Eliminating the threat of people trying to take from others would result in equitable
• 50:05
  access to those resources for people in the group or else lost resources by all.
• 50:09
  Like we've got the situation where, you know, all the stuff could
• 50:13
  happen, but at the end of the day, it again, it doesn't
• 50:15
  really serve as a deterrent, Like revenge doesn't prevent because revenge occurs after something
• 50:21
  has happened, right, So like, yeah, it's weird to look at
• 50:23
  it like that, but but if we get rid of a threat, then
• 50:25
  we keep our resources and that makes sense from that perspective. But at the
• 50:30
  end of the day, like it's still hurting other people. I think the
• 50:34
  idea with talking about this aspect of it being cultural is thinking about sort of
• 50:40
  end of the world type setups, mostly zombie movies like or shows Walking Dead
• 50:46
  and Last of Us, that sort of thing. Let's say you're living in
• 50:49
  that situation and someone's like a group of marauders who go around basically attacking people,
• 50:54
  stealing their stuff, burning down their walls and whatnot, and then people
• 51:00
  seek revenge against them, they jail them or maybe even kill them, and
• 51:04
  then those people are no longer out attacking and killing and burning things down.
• 51:08
  What you've done in that case is you've essentially secured your resources and your people
• 51:15
  against that potential threat. So what the idea here is that like this could
• 51:21
  have this almost certainly evolved culturally back way back in time when cultures were starting
• 51:27
  to form and tribes were coming together, and there were certain people or other
• 51:31
  smaller tribes that were running around basically looting from other existing tribes, and then
• 51:37
  they were like, we got to stop this from happening anymore. There's a
• 51:42
  suggestion essentially that that's how that kind of came to be that makes sense.
• 51:45
  Another thing that sort of speaks to the cultural aspect of this is that the
• 51:49
  sort of acceptability of revenge and the motives for revenge, they tend to vary
• 51:54
  across cultures. So you can find different I guess, approaches to revenge in
• 52:00
  if you go to different countries. And so for one example, they did
• 52:02
  this study where they were I think they were just surveying people, and Americans
• 52:07
  were more likely to seek revenge if they felt that their individual rights or liberties
• 52:12
  were threatened or were removed. And alternatively, Koreans were more likely to seek
• 52:17
  revenge for duty based harms, so related to their obligations and their work and
• 52:23
  what they were sort of allowed to do. And also there was a huge
• 52:25
  component of like social aspect of revenge there. So that I think again further
• 52:31
  speaks to the fact that the motives for revenge are different in different places and
• 52:37
  consider acceptable under different circumstances. Alludes to the idea that the culture plays a
• 52:42
  significant role in how this is shaped up. Oh, most definitely. And
• 52:45
  I think you know, at the end of the day, when we start
• 52:47
  talking about kind of the behavior surrounding revenge and the experience of revenge and all
• 52:52
  that, I mean, it's absolutely learned, right. So there's really great
• 52:54
  quote about this that says, quote, children are not born with hate in
• 52:58
  their hearts, they must be taught it, right, And I think that
• 53:00
  that is so critically important for understanding how any of this works and how we
• 53:06
  operate as humans in that space. This is a quote from the TV show
• 53:09
  Ghosts that I've recommended before on here, and so they have this Viking character
• 53:15
  who tends to avoid using b verbs, so he says, children not born
• 53:20
  with hate in their hearts, they must be taught it. And it's played
• 53:23
  up for a joke because basically what happened is he wanted his son to hate
• 53:29
  Danes, but he died before his son grew up, and then his son
• 53:31
  grew up and married a Dane, and so he was like originally mad about
• 53:36
  it, and then he was like, well, it's not his fault.
• 53:37
  I wasn't there to teach him to hate Danes. That's sort of how the
• 53:40
  joke goes. Sure in my mind, I was like, what an incredibly
• 53:44
  profound quote to use as a joke for this, because it's absolutely correct,
• 53:47
  Like, yeah, children are not born with hate, they're taught to hate.
• 53:51
  So when that that develops, it's because it's been taught. And I
• 53:53
  think that we should look at it, look around at each other and be
• 53:57
  like, let's be ashamed of the fact that we've done this to this kid,
• 54:00
  right, and maybe be ashamed of the fact that we have to depend
• 54:02
  on ads. Okay, we're on our very last thing here. You just
• 54:14
  I think unpacking just a slightly different angle to take and understanding revenge. Yeah,
• 54:20
  so let's talk about the behavioral part of this. Now, behavior itself
• 54:22
  can be reinforced by relief. Right, the idea that somebody else's behavior is
• 54:27
  stopping. Somebody else's behavior that I dislike is stopping, right, and the
• 54:31
  individual caused the stop, so like as me myself, I have caused the
• 54:37
  stop. And there might have been this idea of signs of damage, like
• 54:39
  the idea that like, not only do I get this behavior to stop,
• 54:43
  but like I actually like seeing this person suffer. Yeah, And that is
• 54:47
  for our folks that agree that they enjoy hurting other people, that signs of
• 54:52
  damage pieces is fair game to consider. And for those of you who are
• 54:57
  not familiar, signs of damage simply means that another organ is am will enact
• 55:00
  harm on another organism just because they enjoy the result of the harm. It
• 55:06
  could be blood, it could be pain on the face when saying crying,
• 55:08
  the actual damage itself, like all of that's kind of what signs of damage
• 55:12
  means it Actually it can be damaged to inanimate objects as well. Yes,
• 55:15
  but the reinforcer, like the thing, the consequence they're working toward, or
• 55:21
  the thing that works to maintain that behavior, is that they got to see
• 55:25
  damage done, right, And that I think is sort of a behavioral way
• 55:29
  of unpacking, Like what is revenge. It is behavior that is reinforced when
• 55:34
  someone else's behavior stops. So you got someone to stop doing what they were
• 55:37
  doing, and so that is a reward. And you specifically were the one
• 55:42
  who caused that thing to stop, and when you did that, you were
• 55:45
  able to observe some signs of damage. You do cause some damage that was
• 55:50
  clearly observable. We call that multiple control. And so I think that's just
• 55:57
  a way of thinking about it. From like if we strip out like anything
• 56:00
  from intention, anything from motives, anything from anything else, what we can
• 56:05
  look at that is pretty empirically and objectively observable. Is that aspect of it,
• 56:09
  And that just again I think helps clarify ways that like how would we
• 56:13
  measure this if we were just watching and we didn't have context, if we
• 56:16
  knew those things, right, right, So I just think it's useful to
• 56:20
  think about that in that way sometimes. Another one we've talked about is this
• 56:23
  idea that like the act of revenge can result in like this long term persistence
• 56:30
  in our thoughts and emotions of the of anger, of the whatever, that
• 56:37
  if the original injury was, the last retaliatory injury was. And I think
• 56:42
  it's helpful to look at this as a verb, right, So we're going
• 56:45
  to go back to revenge is not a thing really, it's like an abstract
• 56:50
  noun, but when to turn into a verb avenging right, right? And
• 56:53
  when we think of this as an action. Every time we take an action,
• 56:57
  that's a behavior, and when we do that, it's strength that action
• 57:00
  and our psychological past and present. It's in our repertoire, right, it's
• 57:04
  there. Right. The more we do it, the more we're likely to
• 57:07
  continue to do it, particularly if it works in some way, and it
• 57:12
  just goes back to this endless cycle, the mathematical equation violence equals violence,
• 57:17
  yeah, and it just goes on forever. There's no additional solution to it.
• 57:22
  So at some point we've got to change what the other side of the
• 57:27
  equation is if we wanted to stop repeating right exactly. And another thing to
• 57:30
  think about too, is it makes sense that we would as an organism try
• 57:35
  to minimize harm to ourselves, like just from a basic survival standpoint, like
• 57:38
  I don't want harm to come to me, because if harm comes to me,
• 57:42
  then I will not survive, right, And so so we can not
• 57:46
  only just engaging this behavior that's revenge behavior for our own survival, but we
• 57:51
  also will do it because we can get away with it. And there is
• 57:54
  that piece too where it's like, Okay, I've been harmed. I'm going
• 57:58
  to get away with this by enacting revenge on somebody else. And so there
• 58:00
  is like this component of it makes sense that from a self preservation standpoint,
• 58:06
  it makes sense from a reward standpoint, I can get away with it.
• 58:08
  I get relief from doing this. There's all kinds of things that play a
• 58:12
  role in this, and so all of those contingencies make sense for why somebody
• 58:15
  would do this. So I think we're sort of getting to what I would
• 58:20
  think of as sort of a take home here, And I think one of
• 58:22
  the big take homes for understanding. This is like, the problem with revenge
• 58:25
  is it doesn't do any of the things that it promises to do. It
• 58:30
  doesn't work as a deterrent. It doesn't work to make us feel better.
• 58:32
  A matter of fact, it often makes us feel worse for longer, or
• 58:35
  at least continue to feel bad for longer. And it doesn't work to restore
• 58:38
  balance. Like, it doesn't work, It doesn't do anything. It just
• 58:43
  fails spectacularly at everything it says that it's trying to do, and it makes
• 58:46
  things significantly worse. That's exactly what I was going to say, is like,
• 58:51
  not only does it fail to resolve the issue, it makes things worse.
• 58:53
  It makes things worse by escalating conflicts, by causing distress and anxiety,
• 58:59
  by injuring relationationships. And then you live not only with the fact that you
• 59:02
  had to you had to commit this act of revenge, but now you have
• 59:07
  to live in fear after the fact because you don't know if you're going to
• 59:09
  get revenged on, like you might get revenged, which is like my I
• 59:14
  think I like saying that. I like I don't like saying it be the
• 59:15
  victim of it. I like you got revenged, You got revenged. I
• 59:20
  like it. I think that's great. Yeah right, I personally think we
• 59:22
  should turn all of our past tense verbs into just add ed to the end,
• 59:27
  like I drive to work today. Yeah, just make English. It'll
• 59:30
  make a little bit more sense. Yeah yeah, big fan. All right,
• 59:31
  So thinking about this, we've sort of already been espousing this. But
• 59:35
  what can we do about this? I think, I mean, we as
• 59:38
  a podcast nothing we can tell you what we think, and sure, you
• 59:43
  know, maybe you'll listen to us, but I mean you're here with us
• 59:45
  now, so thank you. But in terms of us as a species,
• 59:49
  we can end the cycle by doing things that are are kind of obvious.
• 59:52
  Right, Instead of getting revenge, we practice forgiveness, right by considering the
• 59:57
  perspective of the other person. We can try and put ourselves in their shoes
• 1:00:01
  and understand where they're coming from, and these things, and again never to
• 1:00:07
  justify when things. When people do bad things, and people are going to
• 1:00:09
  do bad things, and we want a system that deals with that appropriately.
• 1:00:14
  But the system shouldn't be Hamaabi's code. You know, you looked at me
• 1:00:19
  sideways, so I chopped off your arm. You called me a bad word,
• 1:00:22
  so I hung your whole family Like that is not the way to go,
• 1:00:27
  No, not at all. Instead, it's really just considering the perspective
• 1:00:30
  of understanding where they're coming from when it makes sense to do so, trying
• 1:00:32
  to bring some level of compassion to this. I think that's the best possible
• 1:00:37
  endpoint. Like I think that it it doesn't serve anybody anything. It really
• 1:00:45
  truly is the worst kind of way to go about resolving the conflict, because
• 1:00:50
  ultimately, what you're talking about is there is a conflict in place, right,
• 1:00:52
  and so your response is to go bigger, go harder, scare this
• 1:00:55
  person, hurt this person, and that solves none of the problem because the
• 1:01:00
  problem has still existed, it will continue to exist, And now you're left
• 1:01:05
  with not only do I have the original problem, but now I've created more
• 1:01:07
  problem. Like it just does nothing but fuel the fire. Another thing that
• 1:01:13
  we can do about it is practicing mindfulness. There's actually been some experimental research
• 1:01:17
  that's shown that when people practice mindfulness, they it'll de escalate some of those
• 1:01:22
  more intense emotions and they're less likely to report wanting to even seek retribution afterward.
• 1:01:29
  It's not a panacea It won't fix everything, but it does help at
• 1:01:32
  least turn the dial down a little bit on the temperature of that experience,
• 1:01:37
  and so people are able to sort of make more intentional decisions then right,
• 1:01:42
  and then finally again, just thinking about this, this violence equals violence,
• 1:01:45
  this escalation, this endless cycle of revenge. What we can try and do
• 1:01:51
  instead is, as often as possible, lead with compassion. Lead with compassion,
• 1:01:55
  even when we feel we've been wronged the whole turn the other cheek.
• 1:02:00
  Right, it's just another thing we can try and make this world a less
• 1:02:05
  scary place to live if we can trust each other because we're compassionate toward one
• 1:02:09
  another. Right, Like, it seems like mostly we want our species to
• 1:02:14
  continue. Like we keep having kids, We keep like building medical institutions to
• 1:02:19
  like support people medically, right, we keep trying to make things safer,
• 1:02:22
  so like, I think we want our species to keep going. So like,
• 1:02:25
  let's also take on this psychological aspect of be kind to one another and
• 1:02:30
  practice compassion and forgiveness and see if we can then move toward not killing each
• 1:02:36
  other anymore. Right, you know, yeah, hanging fruit, Yeah,
• 1:02:39
  it seems nice enough. I do want to end really quick on just a
• 1:02:42
  little personal note. I know we're gon kind of long, but you were
• 1:02:45
  sort of speaking about like when you were younger and you would get you know,
• 1:02:47
  had someone done that to you. I used to love the idea of
• 1:02:51
  revenge. I loved revenge stories. I loved revenge movies. I loved the
• 1:02:53
  idea of getting revenge and this idea that I would get revenge on people that
• 1:02:58
  had wronged me, whatever that's supposed to mean. And every time I had
• 1:03:01
  an opportunity to get revenge and I tried, it was horrific, Like it
• 1:03:07
  backfired so badly, like I might have been successful, and then I like
• 1:03:10
  actually injured that person in my relationship with them, and then it was like
• 1:03:15
  I just felt really bad afterward, and I was unable to repair it right,
• 1:03:19
  even little things, you know. It was like, you didn't do
• 1:03:21
  this thing for me when I expected it, so now I'm not going to
• 1:03:23
  do this thing for you when you expect it. And there's like why would
• 1:03:27
  you do that to me on purpose? Like you're a bad person, And
• 1:03:29
  I get that. I was like, yeah, that was a pretty dick
• 1:03:31
  move, right. It just it's never worked. It's just always been the
• 1:03:36
  wrong answer. Anytime it's ever felt like the right answer, it has been
• 1:03:37
  the wrong answer. So it's I think it's just worth considering. Like,
• 1:03:42
  there's just no way to fix a broken system like this. It is by
• 1:03:46
  it, it's very nature. It is an unworkable, unsustainable system, right
• 1:03:52
  right exactly. It burns out really quickly and leaves everybody in the lurch.
• 1:03:57
  Okay, so we made it. That is everything. That is everything that
• 1:04:00
  you will ever need to know about Revenge. Yeah, just can never have
• 1:04:02
  to study it again. That's right. Thank you so much for being here
• 1:04:06
  with us. We're gonna go ahead and recommend some things that are unrelated to
• 1:04:10
  Revenge as far as I know, or at least somewhat unrelated. I don't
• 1:04:14
  know mine's unrelated, but we like to recommend some things. But first I
• 1:04:17
  like to do the credits. If you would like to support the show,
• 1:04:19
  you can join us on Patreon. If you do get access to all kinds
• 1:04:21
  of behind the scenes content. You can add free content early episodes. You
• 1:04:26
  can like talk to us and stuff. I mean, you can talk to
• 1:04:28
  us anyway. Yeah, but there's like a little community of people that are
• 1:04:30
  there, and it's great consider joining us over there. You can join for
• 1:04:33
  as little as as like a dollar a month. Technically you can join for
• 1:04:36
  free. You don't get any of the benefits, but you can hang out
• 1:04:39
  them. Sure. Yeah, But I would like to otherwise thank our patrons
• 1:04:43
  who have been so generous with us, and that is Mike, m Megan,
• 1:04:45
  Mike T, Justin, Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia,
• 1:04:48
  Brian, Ashley, Kiara and Michelle. Thank you all so much for
• 1:04:53
  your continued support. Yes, absolutely, we love you so much. Also,
• 1:04:57
  of course, thank you all for listening who are with me here today,
• 1:05:00
  even if you're not a patron supporter, because that will be most of
• 1:05:01
  you, and I do appreciate you for listening and continuing to make this show
• 1:05:05
  feel a little bit relevant. And then my team of people are very necessary
• 1:05:10
  to have the show even happen. I would like to think writing and fact
• 1:05:14
  checking from Shane and myself. Our social media coordinator coordinator Coordinator Coordinator coordinator is
• 1:05:19
  Emma Wilson, and Justin does all the audio stuff that makes it sound like
• 1:05:24
  a real podcast. If you'd like to reach out to us directly to tell
• 1:05:27
  us and your thoughts on the things we're about to recommend, or revenge things.
• 1:05:31
  Maybe listen more things that we didn't list that were great revenge stories.
• 1:05:34
  You can email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or of course,
• 1:05:41
  you can reach out to us on the social media platforms that are not
• 1:05:44
  dedicated to hate speech and misinformation. Yes, we are on those ones,
• 1:05:48
  most of them are few of them. I don't know several the main ones
• 1:05:51
  I guess that you think of, So anyway you can find us. There
• 1:05:56
  is there anything else that you'd like to add, or anything I forgot before
• 1:05:59
  we get to our recommendation, No, I think I'm good. Okay,
• 1:06:01
  revenge for talking about revenge. Let's do something different and do some recommendations.
• 1:06:05
  Yay, I love it. Recommendations all right, So my recommendation this week.
• 1:06:19
  I think I've recommended this before, but I've recently revisited this series and
• 1:06:25
  I'm really happy about it because it's just such a delightful read. And it
• 1:06:28
  is a comic book series called Fables. So Fables was originally published in July,
• 1:06:32
  started in July two thousand and two, so it's like that old oh
• 1:06:36
  okay, But the story is basically a group of fairy tale and folklore creatures.
• 1:06:44
  They've set up a community inside of New York. And so like all
• 1:06:47
  these characters are updated. They're living in modern day New York. They're dealing
• 1:06:50
  with it because they've been kind of kicked out of their fairy tale lands due
• 1:06:55
  to this character called the Adversary. And I'm not going to spoil any thing
• 1:07:00
  about that, but you discover who the Adversar area is and it's a great
• 1:07:02
  kind of thing. But the Fables are all like, you know, it's
• 1:07:04
  it's snow White is like the executive commissioner of fable Town, King Cole is
• 1:07:10
  the mayor. Prince Charming is a real piece of sh in it Jack of
• 1:07:14
  the Beanstalk folklore. He's like always trying to grift somebody, like he's always
• 1:07:18
  got like some new get rich quick scheme. So like the characters are all
• 1:07:21
  kind of like modern takes on these characters and what they would be doing if
• 1:07:25
  they lived and what they call the mundane world our world or the Munday world.
• 1:07:30
  And it's great, it's such a great read, and it's it came
• 1:07:33
  out on the vertico of the Vertigo publisher, which does like Sandman and Preacher
• 1:07:41
  and like some of those stories that are kind of like more off kilter.
• 1:07:44
  The book is incredibly violent. It's ridiculous, like just really fun storytelling though,
• 1:07:48
  because then they'll do like these kind of like one offs where it's like,
• 1:07:51
  oh, how did you get to the Munday world? And they you
• 1:07:55
  know, have blue Beard, and they have you know, little boy blue
• 1:07:58
  and they have all these like they have all all these characters kind of come
• 1:08:00
  in and play a role in different ways. So it's a fun read.
• 1:08:04
  It does give you a little bit of backstory on like these folklores that you
• 1:08:08
  might not know. It explores multicultural folklores as well and brings those characters in.
• 1:08:12
  At some point in time. Aladdin is there and kind of like the
• 1:08:15
  original story of Aladdin is pulled in and stuff. So like there's it's really
• 1:08:17
  cool and it's just a fun read. Like I think, I just have
• 1:08:20
  a lot of fun with it. It's not very difficult to pick up and
• 1:08:24
  follow either, neat all right, cool the Fables comics series. Yes by
• 1:08:29
  Bill Willingham. Cool, all right, very good. Yeah. I have
• 1:08:33
  had to do some recent renovation home DIY projects. I had the good fortune
• 1:08:40
  to use an orbital sander for the first time. You know what, it
• 1:08:43
  is. I have no idea. Nope, Okay, do you know what
• 1:08:46
  it's like? A sander is like a sanding belt or something. Yeah,
• 1:08:48
  yeah, okay, yeah, it's basically one of those. But it's a
• 1:08:50
  circle and it kind of spins around. It doesn't exactly spin, but it
• 1:08:54
  kind of wiggles around in the really fast circle. Sure, it is maybe
• 1:08:58
  my favorite tool to use. Now, obviously I'm not going to try and
• 1:09:01
  use it to screw in a nail, but it is it. But for
• 1:09:04
  the for using it for tools that require for a projects that require an orbital
• 1:09:09
  sander really fun. Okay, Now my hands dig it very tingly after holding
• 1:09:13
  it for several hours sanding. But it is a really cool tool. So
• 1:09:16
  if you're ever in the need to sand something, particularly like a smooth surface,
• 1:09:21
  like you're trying to get something smooth, yeah, I mean that's kind
• 1:09:24
  of how all sanders kind of work. Sometimes sanders are kind of grinding down,
• 1:09:29
  and orbital sanders can do that too, but a lot of times you
• 1:09:31
  put like a really fine grid on there that's mostly for smoothing. Yeah,
• 1:09:34
  and so you can use an orbital sander and they're pretty neat. I just
• 1:09:39
  didn't use the handheld one. They're really large ones and smaller ones, but
• 1:09:43
  I just use the handheld orbital sander. But it was pretty cool. I
• 1:09:45
  was impressed. So if you ever need one, go check one out for
• 1:09:48
  a sanding project. Mine was we were sanding countertops to make them smooth.
• 1:09:54
  So okay, nice, I like that? All right? Cool? That
• 1:09:58
  is what I have to say about orbital sanders. As I said, reach
• 1:10:00
  out to us info at WWDWWD podcast dot com. Of course, leave us
• 1:10:05
  a rating review. I think that was it? Anything else for you before
• 1:10:09
  I let them go? Nope, that's all I got. Cool. Be
• 1:10:11
  compassionate to each other, don't seek revenge. Yep, we love you exactly.
• 1:10:15
  This is Abraham and it's for Shane. We're out. See. Yeah,
• 1:10:18
  you've been listening to Why we Do what we Do. You can learn
• 1:10:21
  more about this and other episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks
• 1:10:29
  for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day