Latest / Basic Folk / Naomi Westwater is Spiritually Creative, But Also Very Very Organized, ep. 336

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Naomi Westwater is Spiritually Creative, But Also Very Very Organized, ep. 336 · Basic Folk

0:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to Basic Folk, where we have on his conversations with folk musicians on the Bluegrass situation.
0:18
[SPEAKER_02]: This is me, Cindy Hous, and I host this podcast.
0:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for finding us.
0:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Very happy to have Naomi Westwater on the podcast today.
0:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Before we get into that, let's talk about ways to stay in touch.
0:31
[SPEAKER_02]: My newest resolution was to send a Basic Folk Newsletter.
0:35
[SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to sign up for the newsletter, you can do so at the link in the show notes, or you can go to basicbook.com and sign up for the newsletter there.
0:45
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0:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We are a listener supported podcast.
0:55
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1:00
[SPEAKER_02]: That's about it.
1:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
1:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Right now, I am coming to you from underneath a hotel bathrobe in a room at the Sheraton in New Orleans for folk alliance.
1:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It's day one.
1:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So I haven't gotten into any trouble yet.
1:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to try to keep a good bedtime and hopefully see some great music.
1:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get to the show today.
1:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Naomi Westwater, something you might notice about Boston-based musician Naomi Westwater, is that they have both sides of the brain on lock.
1:35
[SPEAKER_02]: They're very good at community organizing, grant applying, advocating, and other left-brained activities.
1:42
[SPEAKER_02]: However, they're also a creative, deeply spiritual, open-hearted person, which is associated with the right
1:50
[SPEAKER_02]: not always something that goes hand-in-hand, but it is a beautiful thing when it does.
1:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Westwater, who identifies herself as a queer and black multi-racial person, grew up on Cape Codden, Massachusetts, where they never really felt like they fit in.
2:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks to their parents, there was a lot of music being played, Ray Gay Jazz, Bunk, Classic Rock, and 70's feminist folk.
2:11
[SPEAKER_02]: There was always a deep connection with nature, which plays into their spiritual practice and their songwriting, two areas that she had previously kept separate.
2:20
[SPEAKER_02]: On their new album's Cycle in Change, Naomi made an effort to fully embrace her identity as a songwriter and a witch.
2:28
[SPEAKER_02]: She shares each song ties back to its seasonal context, weaving a story that spans spring's hopeful beginnings, summer's vibrancy, autumn's introspection, and winter's quiet dude.
2:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Right in the final stretch of preparing to release the album, all these very hard things happened, the sudden loss of Naomi's father.
2:47
[SPEAKER_02]: They also went through a divorce and relocated.
2:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It was as if they had created the blueprint for remaining grounded during these challenging life changes.
2:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We get into all of this as well as navigating self-advocacy while struggling to get their endometriosis and add a nomyosis diagnosed and treated as what the impact of their father's death had on their creativity.
3:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's take a listen to a song from cycle and change.
3:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll hear a clip of the track bulbs and then we'll get to our conversation with Naomi Westwater on basic folk.
3:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got it in October, it's a promise to myself They now I'm gonna make it through and through Yeah, I'm gonna make it I ain't playing bobs in November when I cry
3:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope I'm going to make it through the window I hope I'm going to make it I buy seeds in December and I pray you'll gotta don't know Lord, I want to make it through this window
4:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, it's dark outside Though I can't read and hide from my feelings Though I'm sick To the day Of myself and lies
4:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna make it Where I trust that by the song I will see your face again Cause I'm gonna make it clear
5:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll feel the warmth and splendour and I'll let the light back in And I'm gonna make it through the splendour Oh, I'm gonna make it Though it's dark
5:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Naomi Westwater, it's so nice to meet you.
5:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for coming on basic book.
6:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me, Cindy.
6:02
[SPEAKER_02]: You grew up on Cape Cod in Massachusetts.
6:04
[SPEAKER_02]: What town did you grow up in?
6:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I grew up in Phameth and in Mashbee, which are right next to each other.
6:09
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, yes, very familiar.
6:11
[SPEAKER_02]: My cousin's family has a little cottage in Mashbee.
6:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So we did a, you know, Mashbee commons, the flea market.
6:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Movie theater.
6:23
[SPEAKER_02]: There wasn't any air conditioning in that cottage, so we'd go to the movies a lot in the summertime.
6:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
6:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I went to movies a lot.
6:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
6:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
6:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
6:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So I read that you never felt like you fit in on Cape Cod.
6:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And so for those who are not familiar, like we are, what was Cape Cod like for you growing up and why didn't you feel like you fit in?
6:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, especially in the 90s, when I was growing up there and early 2000s, Kid Pod is very white.
6:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I was, I think, the only black person in my middle school and just wanted like a handful of people of color.
7:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's different now, but there are aspects of the cave, especially in the winter that can feel quite rural, actually.
7:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very isolated.
7:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love Kid Pod.
7:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I love, I have, I feel like a relationship with the nature there, as well as a lot of people.
7:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But as I can't, I just, I didn't feel like I fit in, and I was constantly kind of lovingly, but constantly kind of people were like questioning like my hair and my identity and it just made me feel other often.
7:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
7:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Where were the respits on Cape Cod for you?
7:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Mashedbe has such a beautiful beach, South Cape, and one of the things that's really beautiful about South Cape is there's like this path that has the bay on one side and the ocean on the other side, and I just, I love going out there walking out there swimming there.
8:00
[SPEAKER_01]: and then it's part of a state park so there's also woods there too.
8:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I was younger I would just kind of go and wander in the woods around our house and in our neighborhood and get lost with the dog and you know it's small enough that it was okay for me to just wander but especially in the off season you could
8:21
[SPEAKER_01]: out there.
8:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not seeing another person for a really long time.
8:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just kind of feeling he had the woods to yourself.
8:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
8:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems like thanks to your parents.
8:28
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a lot of music being played in the house, Rage, Jazz, Funk, Classic Rock, 70s feminist folk.
8:36
[SPEAKER_02]: The also important 70s feminist folk.
8:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
8:40
[SPEAKER_02]: How is the way that they felt about music?
8:43
[SPEAKER_02]: How has that impacted the way you have ended up feeling about music?
8:47
[SPEAKER_01]: He can general my parents were not artists, but art was very important to them.
8:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And not in like a high-brow way, it just was like a part of everyday life.
9:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was always music.
9:04
[SPEAKER_01]: They were going to show a lot and my first concert I was three years old and we went my mom and I went to,
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: great woods in the South Army rate.
9:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it just was kind of okay.
9:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think part of it, right?
9:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So it just was like music was just always part of the atmosphere.
9:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And how many times did you go to the Cape Cod Melody 10?
9:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, many times.
9:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's been, yeah, many times.
9:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause a lot of, actually, a lot of reggae artists play there in the summertime.
9:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So we would go all the time.
9:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it just was kind of art was almost assumed in my house, like, and my parents would, my dad would listen to Opera when he was paying the bills, and then they would also, you know, listen to whatever popular music, as well, and Reggae, and everything.
9:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a really wide spectrum of music that was playing in our house.
10:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, cool.
10:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it art beyond music as well?
10:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you are a poet and have a lot of love for poetry.
10:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we, my godmother was a
10:11
[SPEAKER_01]: poet growing up so and she was in my life a lot and so just getting a lot of poetry from her and we would go to museums and go to a lot of theater especially when I was younger we go to theater so art just was kind of like it just was a normal part of our everyday life like I didn't think about it in a certain sense.
10:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
10:32
[SPEAKER_02]: When did playing your own music and writing your own songs come into your life?
10:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, what was the reason you started and how do you relate to that reason now?
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was four, my parents got me a keyboard that had presets on it and you would like press a button and some kind of like public domain like synth song with start playing.
10:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And so before I could actually play an instrument, I would press that preset, and I would write my own lyrics over those melodies.
11:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So I started writing as soon as I could talk, and I was writing poetry as soon as I could write.
11:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And what were these poems like?
11:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Release the tape?
11:19
[SPEAKER_01]: My first poem was at eight years old,
11:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, it's just up to it.
11:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was kind of like, I don't remember all of it, but I remember it was like kind of heavy.
11:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It was about nothing, being nothing, nothingness.
11:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but I think there was like no reason for me to start music writing or singing or any of it.
11:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I just felt it.
11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: like called to do it.
11:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think as I've grown up, music has been sort of a therapy for me.
11:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it became like a tool for processing whatever was going, especially in my between and teen years.
12:07
[SPEAKER_02]: your a highly spiritual person and a highly creative person.
12:12
[SPEAKER_02]: What did those attributes look like for you growing up like where was spirituality, where was creativity, and when did you start feeling ownership of them?
12:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good question.
12:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, my parents were both very alternative, so they both grew up in the kind of Christian different Christian faiths, and they both ended up kind of rejecting those faiths as adult, but they really encourage me to
12:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, religion was something that was encouraged, but never forced on me.
12:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I would go to Shabbat when I slept over on Friday night, set my Jewish friend's house.
12:54
[SPEAKER_01]: We would do Shabbat.
12:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I slept over my Christian friend's house on Saturday, we would go to church on Sunday.
13:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I got like a really just like versatile religious education as a kid.
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: When we moved, we moved from a film as to Nashville when I was 12.
13:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And my mom was in a woman's group that was like a kind of neopagan feminist which group for years.
13:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And my dad had joined a spiritualist church, which is a branch of Christianity that believes that Christ was a psychic medium.
13:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And they had like house blessing.
13:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like my mom's
13:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the 13 of my mom's woman's group like chanting and my dad's minister in the yard with a didry do.
13:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember being so embarrassed that 12 years old, like a whole neighborhood, and we'll now know that we are not a normal family.
13:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Here they come.
13:52
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
13:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think what all about instilled in me is permission to be spiritual and permission to, there was never any pressure.
14:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It just was like these are all these things that are available to you if you want them.
14:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I got to college, I really wanted to have a spiritual practice in, in community with people and I started my own circles and we started meeting,
14:21
[SPEAKER_01]: and we would meet for like full moons and for the solstices and equinoxes and I started kind of becoming more of a leader and guiding people for spiritual practices and I'm still doing that.
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm started at Coven in Boston in 2018 and we're still meeting a times of year now so it's just become part of my life.
14:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So many different things, both from really mundane things to deep, thoughtful and intentional ritual.
15:01
[SPEAKER_01]: My dad passed away in April, so a big thing for me now is that I have an ancestor altar, which I've had for many years, but I have an ancestor altar set up.
15:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And I like to like every day, just go there and light a candle, or some incense,
15:20
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a brand of lip balm that my dad really liked and I have that like on the altar and like I go there and put the lip balm on and like think about him and like Wow, he must really like that lip balm that's like very specific.
15:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's like a very specific brand.
15:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
15:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's just like the part of my everyday life that just takes like one minute to two minutes a day or just kind of thinking of those people.
15:50
[SPEAKER_01]: and we meet every full moon and we do a ritual which sometimes is taro, sometimes it's meditation, sometimes we like will write a letter to our future selves.
16:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I do spell work.
16:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I think to me like writing a song, writing a poem, writing a spell, they're all interchangeable.
16:10
[SPEAKER_01]: oftentimes it's some kind of emotion that I'm wanting to bring out into the world or something and desiring or something like that.
16:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's not that much difference to me.
16:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I do a lot of terror, astrology, like for me there's no there's no one thing that I'm drawn to.
16:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like and I think that's the beauty for me that I found in my spiritual practices is like
16:37
[SPEAKER_01]: like it's just supposed to be a way to connect.
16:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So just find a way to connect, right?
16:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes that's one on one with friends or just by myself or in a group, but and then you know sometimes we're doing really big thoughtful which will like for Halloween we'll do like a some kind of ritual we're honoring or I'd love to one suit past and it's
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: feels very secret and special.
17:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's something silly, you know.
17:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So nature is a big part of your story.
17:09
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking a bit about nature walks on a little Cape God.
17:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:14
[SPEAKER_02]: What has your connection to nature look like throughout your life?
17:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Like how has it evolved?
17:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there anyone in your life that encouraged you to explore the natural world?
17:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It just was, I just sent a lot of time outside.
17:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was often playing by myself or playing with the dog.
17:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'd like take the dog for a walk.
17:38
[SPEAKER_01]: We lived for a long time up until it was 12.
17:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We lived by a cranberry dog.
17:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would go and walk the dog on the cranberry dog.
17:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, my parents weren't particularly outdoorsy.
17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: My dad owned restaurants on the cape, so really summertime was like, he was working 80 hours a week all summer long, and we didn't really see him.
18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But my mom loved going to the beach so we'd go to the beach all the time.
18:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think I just developed my own relationship with nature and felt comfort in nature.
18:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, to this day, like any kind of body of water or woods or piece of land, like, and me and a dog going for a walk is like such a nice, wonderful thing to do.
18:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Doug is key.
18:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
18:30
[SPEAKER_02]: What is the connection to Barbados?
18:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so my dad's family is from Barbados.
18:36
[SPEAKER_01]: My dad grew up in New York City, but his dad was from Barbados and his maternal grandparents were from Barbados, so that whole half of my family is from there and
18:49
[SPEAKER_01]: My grandfather was the oldest of 11.
18:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a lot of cousins and great onset uncles that are still living on the island.
19:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And I try and go back as often as possible to be with family.
19:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
19:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Cool.
19:05
[SPEAKER_02]: You consider yourself a storyteller so what makes a good story.
19:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I think at least for the work I'm doing, I'm trying to be as honest as possible.
19:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's the truth that makes a good story.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And the truth is especially when it comes to our emotions and how we actually really feel.
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my best songs are when I write the things I'm really afraid to tell people.
19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That for me, obviously there's fiction and there's great works of fiction, but
19:39
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, so much of songwriting is about how can I be as honest as possible and how can I be in the actual feeling.
19:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we spend so much of our lives trying to avoid our feelings and our job as nervous as to to be really vulnerable and try and inspire other people to be really vulnerable.
20:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
20:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So something I've noticed about you is that you are like both left brand and right-brained.
20:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're very good at communicating.
20:16
[SPEAKER_02]: You're a good community organizer.
20:19
[SPEAKER_02]: You are good at applying for grants.
20:22
[SPEAKER_02]: You're a good at advocating very left-brained.
20:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And then also you're also creative, free-spirited person like an artist, very right-brained.
20:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like not always
20:34
[SPEAKER_02]: that goes hand-in-hand, and that one person can do both so well.
20:40
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you see those sides of you living parallel in your life?
20:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they get along?
20:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a really great observation because that's 100% true.
20:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like 50, 50, right brain, less brain.
21:05
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think in the world that we're living in currently where independent artists have to do so much administrative work, it's really, really, really, really helpful.
21:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes what gets in the way is I'm like a super high achiever and I'm always kind of like, let's just keep going on to the next thing on to the next thing, and I
21:35
[SPEAKER_01]: sometimes like in the in between, or there's like some space, sure.
21:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
21:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's been like important, but what I do now is I just like schedule space.
21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But I, how do you learn that trick?
21:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is by kind of realizing like, oh, there's not enough space for me to do certain things.
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if it's on my calendar, I'll do it.
21:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's just kind of like, like,
22:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is like a small example, but when I teach songwriting, one of the things I teach is freedom and structure.
22:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So I usually start with freedom, which is we do some sort of free rights.
22:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I give nice students some sort of prompt.
22:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just say, just right, like no editor, no filter, just right.
22:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And then once the that part,
22:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it over any kind of just like dump everything out, then we create form and structure and we figure out the form of the song everything from like he kind of signature to You know line structure or rhyme all of those things, but if you start with form You end up like being the editor before there's even been a writer that makes sense.
22:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's how those two sides of my brain work is like
22:55
[SPEAKER_01]: like let there be freedom and creativity.
23:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, I can be really weird and out there.
23:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if there isn't any kind of structure, you know, unless I was flying to make like super avant-garde music, like the things wouldn't make any sense.
23:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So trying to do bull, but making sure for me, I think I have to make sure that the editor stays put first and lets the creative be creative.
23:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So this was a few years ago, but you were on the podcast Wild Loom talking about your endometriosis and your adenomyosis.
23:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Adenomyosis.
23:42
[SPEAKER_02]: at a Nomeo.
23:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So something that sounds like it was a huge roadblock and getting care was how much women's pain is normalized and the fact that you couldn't get the right people to listen to you.
23:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So what has your health journey taught you about how to advocate either for yourself or for others?
24:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Cindy, this is like, I could write a whole novel on that question.
24:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for asking.
24:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that what I've learned is that doctors are experts in medicine, but I'm an expert on my own body, and you're an expert on your own body, because I'm the only person that's actually experiencing my body.
24:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I have had to go through a lot of doctors to find ones that get that and are not trying to convince me that what I'm feeling is not happening, but instead my current PCPA literally said to them, I was like,
24:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I need you to be like a co-investigator, like we're solving a mystery.
24:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not down to do that with me, then I don't want to work with you.
25:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was really quite blunt with them.
25:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, I am down to be a co-investigator and solve the mystery of your body with you.
25:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
25:11
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I've just had so many people try to dismiss my pain or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or.
25:18
[SPEAKER_01]: you know doctors kind of grow like oh well like and so often I just had to say like okay I'm I'm in charge of my body and I'm the one who feels it so it's just like self trust to be honest I think what's also been helpful is understanding that the medical system the medical system is
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Like knowing that and understanding that it's not an easy system to navigate and that realistically you probably have to see, especially with endometriosis, you're going to have to see a lot of different doctors and being able to accept that that's part of the journey and that it's not just me that's experiencing it, but so many other people are experiencing it I don't like that fact, but it has given the understanding of like this is part of the work of
26:16
[SPEAKER_01]: like in terms of health is that I'm gonna have to do a lot of my own research, a lot of my own advocating for myself.
26:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
26:24
[SPEAKER_02]: You basically have like a medical degree.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
26:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's wild.
26:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So you say that, but I've met doctors where I'm like, I know more about my illness than you do.
26:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that's can be a little frightening when you're in the room with someone and you're like,
26:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, time to go, uh, yeah.
26:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, guys, good to go.
26:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So you said on the podcast that you used to have pain every day, and that seemed like really normal to you that you were taught that pain comes with like being a woman.
26:58
[SPEAKER_02]: How has your relationship to pain changed since then?
27:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel, and this is like from a spiritual perspective.
27:08
[SPEAKER_01]: as well as just like a practical one.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that pain is the language of the body and pain is how our bodies communicate to us.
27:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it's that my job to try and respond to my body's pain in the best way that I can.
27:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm still in pain quite often.
27:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and
27:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I am feeling pain, I just kind of try and pause and I say, like, what is my body trying to communicate to me through this pain?
27:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is it that like, I need to go take a nap?
27:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is it that like I ate something that is inflaming my body?
27:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it that, you know, I need to take a muscle relaxer?
28:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is my body trying to communicate to me?
28:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And try and think of the pain more as,
28:10
[SPEAKER_01]: neutral instead of as a negative thing, that's happening to me, and that when you're having enduring pain, chronic pain, it's usually because there is a chronic issue.
28:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I had like, I don't know, like, five or six different organs that have been affected by my endometriosis, so for some good at being pain often, my organs are not doing well, right?
28:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've always been really nervous when any doctor tries to like give me something that's just managing symptoms because the symptoms are often telling me that something's wrong and I want to be able to at least initially hear when the symptom is like going off because that's letting me know that something's off in my body.
28:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Here and you talk about your experience with Enno, you seem like you're just like, I was like, whoa, you are so willing to talk about anything that was going on with that particular experience, but you just seem like such like a truly open book.
29:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Where does that openness come from and what rewards have you experienced because of that openness?
29:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in general, I'm a fairly confident person and I don't feel like shame or embarrassment very often.
29:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And so like I'm not embarrassed to talk about my illness and I don't have shame around my illness because and so therefore like I think and I know when I talk about my illness it helps other people.
29:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I have like personally diagnosed like four five people with endometriosis just through like sharing my story and and hearing listening to their story and
29:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's also, like, I feel the same way, like, when I'm on stage singing a very vulnerable song, like, the vulnerability is hard, but I don't have, like, shame for the feeling.
30:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not embarrassed so that I'm like a human being and a body with feelings.
30:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So it allows me to just kind of, like,
30:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it doesn't like hurt me to really do it any other way, like trying to pretend that I'm well when I'm actually ill or or trying to pretend that I'm like happy when I'm actually sad is that would be more work.
30:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you're saying is you woke up like this.
30:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess so.
30:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
30:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you are very involved at Klippasim in Cambridge.
30:52
[SPEAKER_02]: This is like a very basic question.
30:54
[SPEAKER_02]: But how did you get involved there?
30:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And what does it mean to have that community?
30:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I moved to Boston in 2014 and I started going to open mics there for a shout of college, just going to open mics and then from there, like, had other friends in the folk scene and they kind of like invited me up on stage, a shows and I booked a campfire and, you know, a kind of just expanded outward and outward from there and
31:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm a part of their folk collective and I feel and I really try not to take it for granted.
31:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel incredibly lucky to have such an amazing folk institution in my backyard.
31:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that so many artists don't have something like that.
31:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And whether I'm performing there or going to a show, I know it's just an incredible resource.
31:53
[SPEAKER_01]: really amazing community.
31:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I think especially as a, you know, some of my artwork can end up being quite insular poetry and songwriting and it's been really amazing to just be able to connect with other artists and feel like a half I'm part of a collective which I think I'll artists in.
32:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So your latest album is Cycle and Change, and on this record, lots of things are going on in this record.
32:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God, we need another hour.
32:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You made an effort to fully embrace your identity as a songwriter and a witch.
32:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to start there.
32:39
[SPEAKER_02]: What has that effort look like for you and how did it feel to merge those identities?
32:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, we've talked a lot about my spirituality and nature and all of these things.
32:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think,
32:51
[SPEAKER_01]: My previous projects up until cycling change, I was trying to kind of separate those things.
32:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, you know, spirituality has to kind of be over here and art making is over here.
33:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And cycling change was my, like, aha, moment of like, no, actually there was same thing and they need to come together.
33:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And why can't I make a record that's spiritual and why can't the process of making the record
33:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a quote about the record.
33:25
[SPEAKER_02]: It says, each song ties back to its seasonal context, leaving a story that spans spring's hopeful beginnings, summer's vibrancy, autumn's introspection, and winter's quietude.
33:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So it hits on all four seasons.
33:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And we start in spring.
33:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Where did you come up with the concept to travel through the year seasonally and how did you decide to start with spring?
33:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have another question, but I'll just ask two questions at once.
33:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, part of it again was the, those, my spiritual practice is seasonal.
34:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So I, I do all of the equinoxes and the summer winter solstice.
34:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there are crossed quarter holidays.
34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's like eight sun holidays that I celebrate every year.
34:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been doing that since 2010 and grew up in that.
34:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And so kind of the just concept of that cycle is ingrained in me.
34:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And what happened was I wrote the title track.
34:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like April 2020 in lockdown.
34:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like totally isolated and sad.
34:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, I didn't realize it, but I have kind of a, I'm starting to collect.
34:46
[SPEAKER_01]: songs that are seasonal and kind of are living in a place and so then I started actually writing with intention, like can I write some summer songs?
34:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I write a couple more fall songs?
35:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't, it just kind of unfolded and you know when I looked the record took four years to like make, but it's a period of a decade of writing and I didn't know that I was writing it,
35:16
[SPEAKER_02]: The album highlights nature as a teacher and a mirror and you want us to embrace our emotions and connect with the cycles that ground us, reminding us that even a mischanged there is beauty and stability in the natural world.
35:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So you and I were supposed to talk about this album last year.
35:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh, but a bunch of a bunch of things happened for you right in the final stretch of getting ready to release this album, all these like very hard things.
35:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dad suddenly passed away, you went through a divorce, you relocated.
35:53
[SPEAKER_02]: You had a whole album about all of these things.
35:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So how are you able to keep the lessons of cycle and change with you during difficult times?
36:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So funny, my therapist, you know, in therapy I'm not talking about music because that's not like the thing that I need therapy for, but at one point I kind of said to my therapist like, well, this is what my album is about that's coming out and she was like, oh, you wrote the medicine that you need actually right now and so I felt that like I the lessons on the record or what I needed this year.
36:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And as much as the art is for other people, it's also art that is still for me.
36:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's also helped me to let go.
36:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was gonna tour the record and do a big hometown really show and all of these things and I didn't do any of it.
36:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think I'm going to.
36:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think maybe this record is just not gonna get that.
37:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It's looking like potentially in February or March I'll be back in the studio at the next record.
37:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think what I have just come to exactly the way are supposed to do things sometimes based off of the season of life here and it's just not how things work out and that's okay.
37:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Your dad, you've posted lots of pictures of your dad and he just seems like such a huge presence.
37:30
[SPEAKER_02]: You also posted a song that you wrote recently that in your words captures the specific grief of my dad's last day.
37:39
[SPEAKER_02]: How has your father's death impacted your creativity?
37:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for a big chunk of time,
37:50
[SPEAKER_01]: really feeling very creative.
37:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a big show of time, I wasn't singing because the last time I sang was my partner brought there guitar to the hospital and my partner and a few friends were there and we sang my dad.
38:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I literally couldn't sing for several months without
38:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just now starting to write about it.
38:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think I just needed a lot of time.
38:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's like the wound was too fresh to be like, let me now write a song about this.
38:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's funny.
38:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I do this thing called writing 10 songs in one day.
38:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a workshop I do with the past scene.
38:41
[SPEAKER_01]: They do it like, they get in January.
38:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And I ended up writing a bunch of songs.
38:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been trying to write songs about my dad, but what I'm noticing is that what I actually need to write is about the process of him dying.
38:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not so much like portraits of him, as much as it is the very specific moments of what it feels like.
39:08
[SPEAKER_01]: to call my uncle and Barbados on the phone and let him know that my dad's dying and just hear my uncle break down to tears.
39:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's actually what I am writing about.
39:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not so much about this person, but the experience of witnessing death and this great transformation.
39:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And just, like, some writing was for me when I was growing up,
39:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I have more skills and tools now, but I'm still using it to process, basically.
39:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
39:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And my hope is to be as vulnerable as honest as possible in that processing, and to not hide away from that.
39:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, well, this has been really wonderful.
39:55
[SPEAKER_02]: It's talking to you.
39:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And before I let you go, will you do a very quick lightning round?
40:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
40:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
40:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, question number one.
40:06
[SPEAKER_02]: What is your ideal stage outfit?
40:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sorry, this is not lightning at all.
40:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I never is.
40:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I so want to be able to choose the like a rock star that goes out in jeans and a fun graphic tee.
40:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Like as much as I wanted to dress up and look like Bart Simpson.
40:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I just want to be I just want to be like casual cool like anytime I put on like a kind of crazy outfit.
40:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like I really just want to be like in jeans and a tea right now.
40:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's yeah.
40:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay.
40:42
[SPEAKER_02]: What tarot card are you hoping for before you get on stage?
40:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I would say it's the fool because the fool is just taking a leap of faith and is down to make some mistakes and is having a really fun time and that is the hero part that I want in body.
41:01
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really good answer.
41:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you a dog friend or a cat friend?
41:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a dog.
41:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm there are two dogs living in my house, and I respect cats, but I also think that cats are satis and should probably be outside.
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:20
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you ordering on the club pass team, Ud menu?
41:24
[SPEAKER_01]: This is very controversial because they took away the black bean burger, but then they brought it back.
41:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
41:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So for a while, I didn't know it to order because I always order the black bean burger with the rosemary fries and a half salad.
41:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what I'm ordering now, but for about a year, I was really lost.
41:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh boy, sorry to hear.
41:48
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the final question.
41:50
[SPEAKER_02]: If you were a flower, what flower would you be?
41:54
[SPEAKER_01]: City, that's a very hard question.
41:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Ha ha ha ha.
42:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
42:01
[SPEAKER_01]: What flower would you be today?
42:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it just be a peony.
42:05
[SPEAKER_01]: They're so lush and dramatic.
42:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I would want to eat.
42:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
42:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
42:19
[SPEAKER_02]: All stellar answers except the cat.
42:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
42:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm more of a cat friend.
42:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you so much.
42:27
[SPEAKER_02]: This has really been wonderful to talk to you.
42:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Cindy.
42:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad we could do this.
42:38
[SPEAKER_02]: This episode of Basic Folk was produced by Anthony Cabrera, The Trick Strauss Composes Our Music.
42:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Basic Folk is a production of the Bluegrass situation.
42:46
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find all of our episodes there.
42:48
[SPEAKER_02]: You can search for Basic Folk on the Series XM app.
42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Go to folkalli.com or folkalli's mobile app.
42:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Basic Folk.com or you can go listen wherever you get your little shows on your little phone device.
43:05
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where you can find us.
43:07
[SPEAKER_02]: If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend.
43:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I suggest sharing it with that friend and high school who is always telling you about witches and that if she does something to somebody as a witch, it comes back three times to her.
43:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Send it to her.
43:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I think crony was Vanessa.
43:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
43:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, thanks for listening all the way to the end.
43:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Talk to you next time.
43:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.