Latest / Sorta Sophisticated / Episode 119 - You Had To Be There: Why 9/11 Just Turned Into History (25 Years Later)

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Episode 119 - You Had To Be There: Why 9/11 Just Turned Into History (25 Years Later) · Sorta Sophisticated

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to Sorta Sophisticated with Pete and Amanda. Okay, so I was talking to Luke the other day with 911 coming up, like, naturally we're having this conversation about it. I realized he wasn't even born when 911 happened.
• 0:14
  Speaker B: Ew.
• 0:15
  Speaker A: In 2001. Yes. Right. And Emma was only two years old. So theoretically she doesn't remember jack shit. But she was born before.
• 0:21
  Speaker B: Oh, that's weird.
• 0:21
  Speaker A: Before it happened. Yeah. Yeah. Which of course, got me thinking, like, 9 11. Let's do an episode on 9 11. And I didn't know because I've been so, like, out of touch with the world. It's the 25th anniversary.
• 0:32
  Speaker B: That's insane.
• 0:32
  Speaker A: Of 9 11. So then I was like, oh, my God. Anniversary. It totally fits. Let's do this. We gotta do this episode right?
• 0:36
  Speaker B: All right. Are we going conspiracy theory?
• 0:38
  Speaker A: Oh, we can do conspiracy theory. I don't wanna do everything 9 11. Everybody knows everything about 9 11. It's sort of still fresh. So I thought a good twist would be, when does 911 officially become history? Like, when does it move from living memory to history? So, like, we can go through a little bit of 911 shit. Don't get me wrong. If you wanna do some conspiracy, that fine. But, like, that's not my point. My point is sort of like, I wanna talk about that concept. Because as the old guy, when I was talking to Luke, I was like, I don't remember shit about jfk. I wasn't alive. Right. I don't shit moon landing wasn't alive. Conspiracy theory. But my parents would talk to me about it like it was the oh, my God, Peter. Da da da va. And I'm like, okay. So to me, I remember history book. I had to read about it. I'm like, fuck, I got to study this today. I don't want to study this. So, so weird how now that's happening with me with 9 11. Because, like, I remember, literally, I was driving to work. Gabby called me, freaking out. Oh, my God.
• 1:30
  Speaker B: Da da da.
• 1:30
  Speaker A: Right? She was holding Emma pregnant with Luke. Da da. And, like, those are the stories that I remember. So it's funny how that's what got me thinking. Let's not do a 911 episode. Let's use that as a backdrop. Let's do a When does it turn into history? Episode. What were you about to say? Sorry, I told. It was, like, going on my rant.
• 1:45
  Speaker B: Well, you, like, brought up jfk. And when we were in Houston, I went through the.
• 1:50
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Called the J. Like, did you go see where Lee R.V. haswell shot him.
• 1:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. So. But what would that. It's like. It's a museum, I guess.
• 1:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's a museum, kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:01
  Speaker B: Okay. But anyways, it was fascinating because there was all of these things. The moon landing, right. Soviets, all of this history.
• 2:09
  Speaker A: Oh, in there.
• 2:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:12
  Speaker A: The timeline. I know, it's. It's wild, right? Cuban Missile Crisis, right?
• 2:15
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But I, like, lived those moments through, like, my grandparents and even, like, a little bit of, like, my parents talking about it.
• 2:23
  Speaker A: Right. Stop flexing on me. But, yeah. But, yeah, I got it.
• 2:25
  Speaker B: For me, it's history. I know it wasn't a life.
• 2:27
  Speaker A: Same thing.
• 2:28
  Speaker B: So now when you talk about, like, Luke and Emma, not.
• 2:30
  Speaker A: How old were you? When. 9, 11.
• 2:32
  Speaker B: I was a sophomore.
• 2:33
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 2:33
  Speaker B: All right. In high school.
• 2:34
  Speaker A: So you have. It's.
• 2:34
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, no, I remember.
• 2:35
  Speaker A: Indelible.
• 2:36
  Speaker B: We all just sat. We watched the tv. But, like, a lived moment versus history. That's a fascinating concept.
• 2:43
  Speaker A: That's what I want to talk about.
• 2:44
  Speaker B: When does it start? Because jfk, for me, is very much history. Walking through that museum and seeing people who. Who were alive when it happened, not history for them.
• 2:52
  Speaker A: No, it's literally going to happen. I mean, go all the way, go farther, go to Holocaust, go Pearl Harbor. Everything becomes history. But when, right? So that's it. That's what. That's what I thought was cute. So here's the deal. Ready? Official title. You had to be there. Why 911 just turned into history. Not that it did, but I thought that was a good title. So here's what we'll do. So first, we'll do what actually happened that day. We'll do, like, super brief, just so anybody gets a quick refresher on it. Second, we'll do the real question, right? When does. We'll call it Memory Become History? What actually happens, like, during that handoff? I think that's where we spend time on this episode, because I think that's the cool part. And then finally, there's literally shit happening, like this week, I guess, all the photojournalists that were there that actually shot 9 11, like, that morning.
• 3:34
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 3:34
  Speaker A: Okay. They're all getting together for the first time in 25 years. And it's going to give us, like, a whole angle on sort of how memories get pictures built through photographs. So I thought. Yeah, so that's sort of like a last section that we'll talk about today. So lock it in, Amanda. It's gonna be good. Welcome back to Sort of Sophisticated, the podcast where culture, curiosity, and chaos collide. I'm your host, Pete. You're probably getting sick of me saying that, but here we are. That's Amanda. And what is it with the mustard yellows today?
• 4:03
  Speaker B: It is. Well, I was repping the shirt that you gave me.
• 4:05
  Speaker A: Yes. And I'm apparently in sort of.
• 4:07
  Speaker B: You live sort of sophisticated every day.
• 4:09
  Speaker A: That's all. I don't know. This is sort of my, like, meh shirt when I'm in the meh mood, you know, because, like, I like some of my colors. You know, I like to pop. I'm not popping today. There's not a lot of popping going on here.
• 4:21
  Speaker B: I mean, jewel tones look good on your skin tone.
• 4:23
  Speaker A: So say it again.
• 4:24
  Speaker B: Jewel tones look good on your skin tone.
• 4:27
  Speaker A: What the hell is jewel tones?
• 4:29
  Speaker B: Wow. You really need to talk to your stylist if you don't want to.
• 4:31
  Speaker A: Wow. Okay. Apparently. Thank. Were you complimenting me? I don't even know what just happened.
• 4:35
  Speaker B: Okay, we're just going to mosey on down to a word of the week. Just skipping all that.
• 4:40
  Speaker A: Word of the week. Don't get confused. Word of the week is August, but not August, like the month. August. This is August, not August. August.
• 4:53
  Speaker B: You have to put the August of wind.
• 4:55
  Speaker A: You have to put the emphasis on the second syllable. August. Yes. I didn't even know it was a word. Right. I could tell by your face.
• 5:03
  Speaker B: Near.
• 5:03
  Speaker A: Did you? Okay. It means majestic, dignified, or impressive.
• 5:07
  Speaker B: That's a bunch of shit.
• 5:07
  Speaker A: No. Worthy of respect. It comes from the Latin Augustus, meaning venerable or consecrated. It's actually where we get the month of August's name from the Roman emperor Augustus. So you have to say August. It's a word you use that when something has, like, a weight or dignity behind it. You have to take it seriously. August.
• 5:29
  Speaker B: I feel like this is one of those words where it's like, it's gonna be hard.
• 5:31
  Speaker A: We're not gonna use it.
• 5:32
  Speaker B: No, like, where, you know, you're just talking. You're like, august.
• 5:35
  Speaker A: Like, did you feel that gust? No, that's not it. Okay. Anyway. Yeah.
• 5:40
  Speaker B: Okay, so 9 11, quick recap. We're not talking conspiracy. We're just talking what happened that day.
• 5:45
  Speaker A: 911 recap. We're gonna do it after people hit, subscribe and support the show. Okay, fast version. Cause everybody knows this. Unless you've been living under a rock, which maybe some of you have. I don't know.
• 5:55
  Speaker B: Or weren't born.
• 5:56
  Speaker A: Right. Okay, fine. You're right. Or weren't born. You're absolutely right. Okay, so 9-11-2001, a Tuesday. 19 hijackers tied to al Qaeda take control of four commercial airplanes. Two of them hit the north and south tower of the World Trade center in Lower Manhattan. Eighteen minutes apart. Both towers collapse in about two hours. A third plane hits the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. the fourth, the United 93, goes down in a field somewhere near Shanksville, Pennsylvania. After the passengers, if you remember, were on board. Like, they fought back. And it was like this uprising and stopped them from hitting whatever target they were supposed to hit, which people think was either the US Capitol Building or most likely the White house. So about 3,000 people die that morning. Every age, something like people from, like, 90 different countries. It's the deadliest terrorist attack in human history up to that point. And it's the deadliest single day for firefighters in American history. Wanna know how many firefighters alone died?
• 6:54
  Speaker B: How many?
• 6:55
  Speaker A: 343.
• 6:56
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 6:56
  Speaker A: New York firefighters died. Yeah. Trying to get people out. 343. Holy shit. Okay. Obviously it didn't all stay contained to one morning. That kicked off two wars. Afghanistan war, Iraq war, reshaped TSA security, everything. All the airports in the world forever change how, like, everything is done and also national security. Right. Just in general, like, safety and privacy and kind of the whole idea of national tragedy. Right. How we rally around national tragedy. Because, I mean, up to that point, I mean, we have. But this was like a big turning point as well. So anyway, that's sort of the very brief, sort of sophisticated version of the details behind 9 11.
• 7:29
  Speaker B: Very somber.
• 7:30
  Speaker A: Very somber.
• 7:31
  Speaker B: Not a gust.
• 7:32
  Speaker A: Did you. Good work. Done and done. So proud of you. Fuck, you are on a roll with that shit. You went to the 911 memorial. You've been there in Manhattan?
• 7:44
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, we walked it. And you see just the expansive negative space. Yeah, yeah.
• 7:51
  Speaker A: It's nuts.
• 7:51
  Speaker B: It's. There's not a lot of words for it. You just, like. You experience and you just want to stand there and, like, take it in.
• 7:57
  Speaker A: So incredible. So incredible. Yeah. Okay, so let's. Let's. Let's pivot now. Let's chat a little bit about this whole. How this is turning the turning point from memory to history. You with me?
• 8:06
  Speaker B: I am, but I'm on the old side with you.
• 8:08
  Speaker A: No, yeah, I know, but, like, let's just.
• 8:09
  Speaker B: Let's just experience it.
• 8:10
  Speaker A: I don't know if we have to debate it as much as just sort of like, recognize that it's happening and allow it to be happening so people have words for it. It doesn't have to be A debate or anything like that.
• 8:18
  Speaker B: Yeah, maybe like quarter of is a quarter of a century. 25 years.
• 8:21
  Speaker A: 25 years, yeah. Yeah.
• 8:22
  Speaker B: I feel like maybe that's the cusp of it, right? Because there's a generation that is now adults that has maybe no recollection, no idea, any of it.
• 8:33
  Speaker A: Yes, I would say there's not like a cutoff. It's not like 25 years. All of a sudden, Here's. I would completely agree with you. It's sort of as people start dying off. Right. And I don't think we're there yet because 25 years isn't long enough. But I mean, theoretically, people in their 50s start passing away. People in their 60s who live through it, where they're passing away. So, you know, I do understand that your generation, probably the youngest generation that's going to really remember it being a sophomore in high school. I mean, younger than that, you're not really remembering it. Come on, cut the shit. So like, anybody your age or older, so sort of there's probably another 20 or 30 years. And. And you have to understand, all you really need to shift is like, sort of that. That majority has to start shifting. It's not even like a lot of it. It's just gotta be over 50% all of a sudden. Because here's the thing that I think
• 9:11
  Speaker B: people who don't know or experience with it, right?
• 9:13
  Speaker A: That's the thing. Because when I talk about 9, 11 with my kids, you know, we'll watch it on TV or, you know, like football games, do a good job and they stop. NFL stops everything. And you watch. And then I chat with my kids a little bit. I don't tell them 3,000 people died. I don't say that. I'm talking about, like, my visceral experience that I remember of what happened. I was driving to work, I stopped my car. I remember getting to the office. I remember we didn't even work. Nobody worked that day.
• 9:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, right.
• 9:39
  Speaker A: Like, it's like the world stopped, right? Like, that's the memory part. That's the. I don't wanna say the cool part, because it is what it is, but that's what keeps it alive, Right? Cause once you start, literally once you start reading it in a book, you lose all of that. Right? So I think both categories can and will exist for, I don't know, maybe we're early on this. The next, what, 20 years? 15 or 20 years. Yeah, yeah, of course. Right. But I guess what I'm saying is we're in the beginning of it, transferring from living memory to history. Because now, you know, the Gen Z generation, you know, they're in the workforce now. Right. And they haven't experienced it. So, like their voices are getting louder and certainly the boomers are almost gone. Right. Gen X's voices are getting quieter. And millennials and Gen Zs are sort of the two main generations that are still sort of contending with this. I guess that's sort of how I'm thinking about it. Yeah.
• 10:35
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, I would agree because I feel like there is something when you talk to somebody who's lived through a historic event to knowing about a historic event.
• 10:46
  Speaker A: Right. And like, I'm telling you, visceral, the word visceral comes up a lot. Think of people live through Pearl harbor, live through like the Holocaust, like, holy fucking shit.
• 10:54
  Speaker B: But it's also scary to me because, like the more Holocaust victims that we lose, the less first person knowledge we have.
• 11:04
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 11:04
  Speaker B: And so I feel like sometimes history gets softer rather than us feel the consequences. Right. Of history.
• 11:15
  Speaker A: Yes, it does. It starts to get muted, I think is like. Right. Softer. Get muted, whatever you want to say.
• 11:20
  Speaker B: Because it's not as if like the event has changed, but it's kind of like who's in charge of the story of the event changes, which I think takes away the oomph sometimes.
• 11:29
  Speaker A: Right. And I think that's sort of what's going on now. Like I was saying with the Gen Z, they're starting to shape the world more. So as a result, their voices are getting louder. I think that's sort of the concept behind it anyway.
• 11:41
  Speaker B: I mean, that's kind of the reason why you started sort of sophisticated, though, was so that way you introduce topics that people don't know much of.
• 11:48
  Speaker A: I think this is a really cool shout. Right? This is a cool underlying episode behind why sort of sophisticated exists in the first place. It's sort of to keep it alive. It's why I keep talking about it with you. Like, I love history because for some reason I have the gene that, thank God, came from one of my parents or grandparents, whatever, that I connect with history at this. I'm going to keep saying the word visceral. I'm so emotionally attached to it, so it doesn't even matter that I didn't live through it. I have this weird feeling. Like I remember when I was in Washington D.C. and we walked into one of the museums and I sat down and I watched. Oh my God. What? What D Day. I sat in there for an hour and I mean, my kids all Sat with me. God bless them for being amazing and sitting with me. I cried. Like, I cried. This wasn't like. This wasn't watching, like, Saving Private Ryan.
• 12:36
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:37
  Speaker A: This was like a fucking documentary on D Day. And my wife never had that feeling. She would. She would play along with me, and I know she respected it. But I have a weird thing in me where, like, I feel the connection.
• 12:49
  Speaker B: It's like your empathy transcends time.
• 12:52
  Speaker A: It is stupid. I went to Pearl Harbor. I've been to Pearl harbor three times in my life. Every time I've gone to the USS Arizona, I go up on that memorial. I cry. You know, I was even. I wasn't even alive.
• 13:02
  Speaker B: I will say I like watching stuff. Yes. I can get emotional.
• 13:06
  Speaker A: Right.
• 13:06
  Speaker B: But it doesn't hit me as much as being somewhere. Right. Being where it.
• 13:10
  Speaker A: Oh, totally.
• 13:10
  Speaker B: Like being at 911 where you just, like, stand there and you don't really have words and it just feels heavy. Right. Because, you know, what happened in this space.
• 13:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. For whatever it's worth, that's sort of my dumb little story. I just think that, like. Yeah, it's a shame that. I mean, it happens. And I think that we as a society generally should figure out ways to. I don't want to say do better because I think we do great at it, you know, And I understand, obviously, we write all this down in history and we keep all of this information and we document it. We're super good at it. I wish there was more passion in people that didn't live through it, that could share that passion and keep that going, like, versus just learning about it in a textbook. And I don't know if that's on all the history teachers. I don't know if it's on educators. I don't know. I don't know where to. I don't know how to do that.
• 13:58
  Speaker B: But do you think as a society, we've kind of lost our storytelling abilities? Right. Where as a generational storyteller, like, if I experienced it, I share with my kids. My kids share it. Right.
• 14:11
  Speaker A: That's good. Yep.
• 14:13
  Speaker B: Do you think of the Holocaust? Think of jfk, Pearl harbor, all these things? Like, my grandpa experienced Pearl Harbor. Right. Not like directly there, but first person.
• 14:22
  Speaker A: Right.
• 14:22
  Speaker B: But I think maybe just as like, an American society, we don't cling onto those stories as much as we used to.
• 14:29
  Speaker A: No. So this is one of those, like, I would say social media. I know we're, like, all over the board here, but, like, this is where I love social media, because it can Bring so much. Like, think of all the information you could get. Right? Even the shit that we do. We post. Like, we post on TikTok, all this stuff, like, little bits of people. Oh, I got that. Little bits of information here and there, which I think is fascinating because you're like, oh, my God, I didn't know that. But it also dilutes the shit out of it because then people aren't as interested in hearing the stories, the actual firsthand, even secondhand story about what's going on. And that's a shame. And that's a lot. Because storytelling. We had an episode on storytelling. That's a gift, number one, that people have. And then to share that gift with the world, like, we've become that culture of just, like, I want information overload.
• 15:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. Like, we're consumers and we're not. Like, what is that? It's like a psychology term, like emotional texture, maybe, where it's like, we lose the emotion behind.
• 15:19
  Speaker A: Why do you know that? Like, why are you. You're stealing all of my thoughts. How do you know this? Well, you study psychology on the side when I don't even know what you.
• 15:25
  Speaker B: I swear. You, like, brought this up in another podcast or something.
• 15:27
  Speaker A: And you remember that maybe.
• 15:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, sort of.
• 15:29
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 15:30
  Speaker B: Little nuggets.
• 15:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. So, like. So back to the whole crossing over thing. Right? Like, there's three things that I want to talk about. Emotional texture is the first. Literally, you just nailed the entire first one.
• 15:39
  Speaker B: Right.
• 15:39
  Speaker A: The other one is legends and myths. Then there's something called emotional weight. So, like. Yeah. So back to emotional texture here. So I had to go down a bunch of rabbit holes to figure this all out. Cause I was trying to. You know, I studied, like, Pearl harbor and when that one switched. And like, JFK or the Holocaust, like, all of those things. And what I realized was it's about the. However dumb, the specific human details, that's the emotional text you're talking about. So what you were wearing, where you were, what your smell, what your parents were talking like. I remember what my parents were talking about. Like when shit had weird shit you put together. And history doesn't give two shits about any of that stuff. It just keeps the big stuff. Cause that's its job. Yes. Facts. Facts and figures. Just like we did at the beginning. 9, 11, 3,000 people. How fast did we get through? 9, 11, 3,000 People died. 343 firefighters. You get Right. Okay, that's it. Think about Pearl Harbor. I'll just use that as an example. What do you remember? It's the start of World War II. Americans started World War II. That's all we really remember about it. That's sort of it. Or you think of, like, the Civil Rights movement. Each one of them just sort of has their own thing. But. Oh, my God. So, like the 9 11. We're talking about the memorial. Right at the beginning, we were gonna go there. We weren't even gonna go inside when we went. We were just gonna.
• 16:43
  Speaker B: We didn't go inside.
• 16:44
  Speaker A: We did.
• 16:44
  Speaker B: We just went on the outside.
• 16:45
  Speaker A: No. So we went inside and Amanda. I couldn't leave. Like, I was stuck in there again. My kids are. I think I. I will say this. I think my kids are getting the bug. So whatever's happening with me is happening because they were awesome. But, I mean, I was probably in there six hours, seven hours. Like, I remember Gabby. And Gabby played along and she was actually super into it with me. And. And, I mean, they got a little frustrated, right? Like, we had lunch in there, but I was like, I can't leave. I literally cannot leave this place. It was that overwhelming. So back to the whole. I think that one was super powerful because, number one, I lived through it. Two, I'm from New York, so there is a connection. And then three, it was like, holy shit, I'm a history crazy buff. Anyway, so. God, whatever. Okay, so the second one. Emotional texture. First. Second one is legends and myths. So the whole idea is when too many people start dying off and the voices of the next generation get louder, you're gonna love this. Conspiracy theories, they start.
• 17:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, right.
• 17:41
  Speaker A: JFK and the moon landing. Talk to me.
• 17:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 17:44
  Speaker A: Literally, no bullshit. That's exactly what's going on. If you go. I looked up JFK because I wanted to see if, like, my theory was right on this whole thing. There are more people today. More than 50% of the people believe that in the second shooter conspiracy that absolutely. Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone, even though there is forensic evidence out there that, backed by the Warren Commission, that he acted all by himself. We went to Houston. We saw the stuff, right? But because the voices of the people in that generation are dying out, the conspiracies are getting louder.
• 18:18
  Speaker B: Fair.
• 18:19
  Speaker A: And so it's like, what. What do you do? What are you supposed to do about that? So that's the whole legends and myths section. And the shit's going to happen with 9 11. I mean. Well, don't get me wrong.
• 18:28
  Speaker B: It's already.
• 18:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, it already did, but. But now it's so. It's weird, right? Because it popped for A while ten years later, then it died out. But watch this. I would say in the next 15, 20 years it's going to come hardcore flying back.
• 18:41
  Speaker B: Well, and I feel like the other thing with social media is, is that it's much easier because it's all about clicks, right click baiting all the things. And so when you are pushing the conspiracy theories, whether there's truth or not truth to is something I think that gets like a fire. Right. Like right people, the more you watch it, the more the algorithm pushes it, the more that it's out there, et cetera, et cetera.
• 19:03
  Speaker A: So clickbait, rage, bait, whatever you call it. Yeah.
• 19:05
  Speaker B: Bad side of it is, is that that is where a lot of people are getting their information from.
• 19:09
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 19:09
  Speaker B: Social media. And they stop there and they stop and they don't go any deeper. So whatever they saw in their 10 second reel, that is now truth.
• 19:15
  Speaker A: That is enough information. So this is why sort of sophisticated has to be a podcast. Because if we did it in 10 second clips or 30 second clips or even two minutes, it's not enough. So we need 30, 40, 50 minutes. I don't want to irritate the shit out of everybody and make it a nine hour documentary or miniseries. But we give them enough information to go look for more things. Right. It's also super sad because I think of like if they don't get the real information then it changes the context of history. So I think of the challenge. Were you alive with the challenger? 1986, you were born. Okay, so I was alive. So I was sitting now in grade school. I was in fourth or fifth grade. I don't remember what it was. But if you remember, the Challenger exploded. Right? There was a woman on there, she was a teacher. And so every classroom in America was watching because it was supposed to be this happy feel good story. Like we are sending a teacher to space. It was incredible. It wasn't an astronaut. This was like this was supposed to
• 20:09
  Speaker B: be the feel good movie.
• 20:10
  Speaker A: Literally the feel good story of a century. And then in an instant everything blew up. And I remember every single teacher was in tears and left our classrooms. They went to wherever they had to go. They had to have a special meeting, come back to know how to like. I mean we fucking watched people die in the air, right? It was like same thing as 9 11. It was crazy. But my point is now all we remember now if you like look it up, all people remember is the teacher died. O ring failed. Who gives two shits. So anyway, shout out to short sophisticated we're trying to bring all that shit back.
• 20:40
  Speaker B: We are.
• 20:40
  Speaker A: Here we are. Yeah. Okay. Third one. Sorry. So what do we have? We had emotional texture. We had legends and myths, and now we have something called emotional weight. Okay.
• 20:48
  Speaker B: But I feel like the.
• 20:48
  Speaker A: This one's the saddest one.
• 20:49
  Speaker B: Gets like. But I feel like it's less.
• 20:51
  Speaker A: It gets less. That's the point. It gets distributed over more people. So. So the emotional weight of 911 sits on my generation and your generation for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I know it sits on boomers too. But like mine and your generation. So as we start to die out, that weight gets diluted to the next generation who was not living through it. And the same problem, they. They didn't earn it the same way we earned it. We earned it. It's not a scar, right? Yes. Thank you. And that is sort of the problem because those bigger. I have 100 units of emotional weight. I just transferred 25 units to each one of my kids. So they don't give two shits the same way that I give the shit. So it's super diluted and it totally sucks. That's what 911 is going through. That's the first stage of it changing from living memory to history. So you like. Yeah, it's emotional flattening another way to say it, I guess. Right. So ask ruth. Ask my 19 year old. Ask Ruth what 911 means. Yeah, I mean, literally, she'll probably say, what? Bad terrorist attack? Sure, it was really bad. Like planes. She'll probably just say planes flew into the World Trade Center. I mean, maybe I'm a bad dad because, like, I haven't explained all, but that's it compared to like what I would say about what 911 happened to me. You get the idea, right?
• 22:09
  Speaker B: She doesn't have the emotional attachment that you do.
• 22:11
  Speaker A: Right. But they're somehow allowed to carry the emotional weight of it as we start dying. So it sucks anyway. Whatever. That's my. That's my psychological transfer of living memory to how it affects all of us. Yeah, there you go.
• 22:24
  Speaker B: Okay, but you had mentioned something about the photographers are going back, right, for this memorial.
• 22:28
  Speaker A: The photographers? Yes.
• 22:30
  Speaker B: How does that all fit in? Like, are they trying to share a story? Are they coming together?
• 22:36
  Speaker A: God, hopefully they are. Hopefully they're trying to like, undo this whole thing so we can pass all this down to future generations. I didn't know anything about this. I just started researching 9 11. Da da da. I was like, whoa, this project seems huge. It's actually called Projections. That's what it's called. Before history was written, it was photographed. It's six nights. It goes from September 6th to September 11th. So it's still out there right now. And it's bringing together all, like I said, the photojournalists, photo editors, all the visual arts people. Everybody in that world of photography that covered anything about 911 on the day it happened, doesn't matter where. Shanksville, Pennsylvania, all the way to the World Trade Centers, just long as it was on camera. And the idea is that they're trying to help people recognize that the pictures is what makes our memories. So we're trying to hold sacred these pictures. So quiz. Pop quiz. Well, go ahead. Were you gonna say something? Okay, pop quiz. So 9 11, what picture? If I asked you what picture right now, do you remember about 9 11, what would you say?
• 23:37
  Speaker B: There's probably two. One, like, with the plane hitting.
• 23:41
  Speaker A: Bingo. Absolutely. Yeah. Second tower.
• 23:43
  Speaker B: The second is, like, all these people. I. Sure. There's a picture of them on the street running. Right?
• 23:47
  Speaker A: Okay. All right, I have two more.
• 23:48
  Speaker B: Yeah, there's two more.
• 23:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. Well, no, I have two. I'm just saying I have two more. Right. I remember the man falling, like, literally committing suicide. Right? Like, was terrible. That one's, like, just ingrained in my brain. And then the firefighters raising the flag, like, in all of the rubble, like, Iwo Jima, sort of ask, right? Okay, but. But the point is, is, like, that is. That's the power of the pictures, right? Doesn't matter where we were or where we do it. Like, I'm sitting in Los Angeles, California, when this happened. But now, as I think back, it's overwhelming to see those photographs knowing that I lived through that. I understand. I can't imagine what eyewitnesses. Eyewitnesses are one thing. You know, the fact that we live through it is second thing. And then transferring those photographs to the next generation is sort of third thing. So, like, I think the idea is to help the next generation appreciate that photographers shaped or shape our history. I mean, think about Life magazine, Time magazine. Duh. I mean, you think. Think about any iconic. Think about Iwo Jima, right? Go back and think about those certain iconic pictures that are out there.
• 24:52
  Speaker B: Any, like, photography as a whole.
• 24:54
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 24:54
  Speaker B: Right.
• 24:55
  Speaker A: Books can't do that.
• 24:55
  Speaker B: You know what?
• 24:56
  Speaker A: Photography carries weight. Like, a weight that, like, just literature can't, or news can't.
• 25:01
  Speaker B: Like, it triggers emotion, for sure.
• 25:03
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. Yes.
• 25:04
  Speaker B: A thing. That's a little scary.
• 25:06
  Speaker A: That's why Playboy is so famous.
• 25:07
  Speaker B: Oh, God, besides that. Something I find really scary today though, is how much with AI can be created versus what was real, what's not real. Right. And so we're gonna have to discern that, like moving on. Right. In our futures of again, what's real, what's not real? Because photography used to be the thing that people were there, you had to have a camera. It was a very tactile, physical thing.
• 25:30
  Speaker A: And you could capture them and you could count on it, right? Yes.
• 25:33
  Speaker B: And now it's like, wait, wait, now we're have images that may or may not be true?
• 25:36
  Speaker A: Well, that's started 20 years ago. I mean, obviously we didn't have AI, but people were like, putting in. If you remember, there were people like standing on the, in the World Trade center with a picture and it had a plane in the background coming straight at them. And they don't. You're like, oh my God, it was crazy. Look at this selfie I took. But it was bullshit and it was all fake back then. But at that point, you could totally tell nowadays.
• 25:55
  Speaker B: Oh yeah, you can't tell. And so I think the biggest thing is as a society, we have to kind of hold that value.
• 26:03
  Speaker A: No, you do.
• 26:03
  Speaker B: Right.
• 26:04
  Speaker A: And I also think that just in general, like, there's a certain respect for people that do this job. Like you yourself said. What do you remember? The picture you remember is everyone running away. Right. Where were the photographers going?
• 26:15
  Speaker B: They all stood there.
• 26:15
  Speaker A: They all stood there or ran towards. They ran into. Right. God, you carry a lot of weight. A lot of power with that camera. A lot of power.
• 26:26
  Speaker B: And I think what's gonna be fascinating about this projections project is that you're gonna have people who were there telling first hand, like, personal stories of what they lived, how, you know, everything went down from their perspective and experience. Which may be the last time in history that it happens. Right, of course.
• 26:47
  Speaker A: Oh, totally.
• 26:48
  Speaker B: And so it's the kind of like their last effort to pass down this incredible event that they live through to the next generation.
• 26:56
  Speaker A: So go all the way back. What can we. Yes, we can read a book on Pearl Harbor. I got it. But the, the photographs of Pearl harbor are incredible. Like I told you, I walked into that fucking museum to watch D Day. I didn't watch Steven Spielberg. I watched footage of D Day. That's different. That hits different. So you're absolutely correct. The last connection is living memory turns into photographs. Photographs turn into history. And photographers have a. Their job is tremendous. I'm not crushing on them. What I'm saying is, if Done. Right. They help solidify and freeze that history for us, which I think is absolutely, absolutely incredible. Okay, quiz time.
• 27:42
  Speaker B: Oh, yes.
• 27:43
  Speaker A: I'm putting you on the spot again. I got. I'm doing this again, okay. Because we talked about 9 11. We talked about, like, Holocaust talking about poor. Okay? So in your lifetime, besides 9 11, besides 911, I want to know what is one event that you are going to have such a, like, visceral reaction to literally till the day you die? Like, sharing with your kids, sharing with your grandkids. And I recognize there might be another one that hasn't even happened yet. Totally get it. So what I'm just going to say, as of today, what is one? You will hang on to and say, like, no, I have to tell that story.
• 28:15
  Speaker B: Okay, there's probably two.
• 28:16
  Speaker A: Oh, shit. Okay, what?
• 28:17
  Speaker B: One was probably the financial crisis of 2008, right? The recession.
• 28:21
  Speaker A: Totally Remember it.
• 28:22
  Speaker B: We were.
• 28:23
  Speaker A: Wait, but, like, that didn't happen, like, on one day.
• 28:25
  Speaker B: No, but there was a. No, it was when the first time that the market went down, we were at the little.
• 28:29
  Speaker A: Did you see that movie?
• 28:31
  Speaker B: What.
• 28:31
  Speaker A: What was his name?
• 28:32
  Speaker B: What movie?
• 28:32
  Speaker A: About Burry. The guy who, like, figured out all the things behind, like, the loans and everything. No, Christian Bale. Like, yes, it came out. It was the Big Short. The Big Short. Can you do me a favor?
• 28:44
  Speaker B: Please watch it?
• 28:45
  Speaker A: I know this has nothing to do with 911 at all. Can you please, first of all, Christian Bale. I have a man crush on Christian Bale.
• 28:51
  Speaker B: It's pretty incredible.
• 28:51
  Speaker A: It's my favorite actor, probably of all time. Please watch that movie.
• 28:54
  Speaker B: Okay?
• 28:55
  Speaker A: Are you promising me? Because I know you don't watch movies.
• 28:57
  Speaker B: I will tell Trevor. We will watch Big Short.
• 28:58
  Speaker A: All right? So go ahead. Sorry.
• 29:00
  Speaker B: So. But we were at this little Italian restaurant. We're just getting lunch. We look up at this screen, and, like, earlier in the day, it was like, a little rocky, right? Like, we're in finance, so nothing really new. But then it was just like, whoosh. Like, right? And we just stood there staring at the tv and. And we're like, oh, shit, we have to get back to the office. We took our food to go. And, I mean, that's also how we entered the industry. And so maybe that's why it's, like, so, like, ingrained. It affected our lives. We looked at each other. We're like, this is what we're gonna do. This is our career that we chose. Like, this seems like a really bad idea.
• 29:31
  Speaker A: Okay, all right, I like that. What was the other One, you said
• 29:34
  Speaker B: you had to Covid for sure.
• 29:36
  Speaker A: Oh, okay. I don't know. I guess it's just because I lived through it. Like, I don't even care. But. Yeah, but, like, what would you say about COVID You would just be like, there was no toilet paper. Like, what would you say about COVID
• 29:48
  Speaker B: I mean, it probably, right? It was on St. Patrick's Day. No, that's was the day after, and I had two young kids, the world shut down, and we were told, don't leave your house.
• 29:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, can I?
• 29:58
  Speaker B: And the worst part of it is, though, is that all these movies that you love to reference and for us to watch, you immediately go to the worst ones, where everyone's dying outside. Right. And becoming zombies or something. Right. And you don't know. But this is the messaging that we were getting, which also, like, in and of itself, whole different, you know, story. But, yeah, like, the day after, on St. Patrick's Day, you literally, we were just in the house, and we were like, what's gonna happen? Kind of the same on the financial crisis. Like, I feel like the big moments or the big triggers have been those times when you just stare at the person you're next to and be like, what the.
• 30:31
  Speaker A: Yeah. So interesting about COVID And I don't really want to bring you down this dark rabbit hole with me, but imagine you're at home living through Covid, and you can't see anybody and talk to anybody, and it's terrible. And then your wife's ribcage starts bothering her, and then three months later, she's in an emergency room, and you're not allowed to go in that emergency room because, of course, Covid's everywhere. And then she's diagnosed with terminal cancer, and she dies three years later. So that's sort of like, is that my Covid story?
• 31:00
  Speaker B: That's a real kind of.
• 31:02
  Speaker A: I don't really know. It's fucking terrible. So I'm still living through that one. But I would say, since I can't use. Because those are both, like, good. Like, that's not fair. You still like the big ones.
• 31:13
  Speaker B: But is there another moment?
• 31:14
  Speaker A: Yes. Yes. I would say the. I would say Capitol Riot. I would absolutely say, yeah, interesting. I never imagined that would even happen. So forgetting what side you're on, I don't even give two shits. The fact that it even fucking happened. That, like, people got in and, like, that's incredible to me. So, like, I think that's one that sort of. I would. I would probably use Covid first. I would probably do financial crisis second. But I'm just. Because you use those, I'm picking another one.
• 31:38
  Speaker B: So I would say, like, the whole Charlie Kirk thing, because that's.
• 31:41
  Speaker A: Oh, shit. That's another one.
• 31:42
  Speaker B: Like a JFK moment.
• 31:43
  Speaker A: Bingo. Yes, That's. So we got four. Look at us. We're living memories. We're just, like, throwing them out there. We're so good at this. We're never gonna let this shit die, people. That's what Sort of Sophisticated is all about. There we go.
• 31:54
  Speaker B: All right, well, on that down note.
• 31:57
  Speaker A: Down note. That's a great note. What are you talking about? We are the keepers of. Of history, Amanda. Come on.
• 32:04
  Speaker B: But now I'm just sitting in all of this wallow of all this stuff that we've lived through.
• 32:07
  Speaker A: Is it fun fact time? Is that what you're trying to tell me? Are you saying we've gotten to that part of the episode where you're like, I tired. I want fun facts. All right, fine. Okay. I got some fun facts on 9 11.
• 32:17
  Speaker B: I don't even know how you have fun facts.
• 32:18
  Speaker A: Well, they're not.
• 32:19
  Speaker B: How are they fun facts?
• 32:20
  Speaker A: Well, they're sad facts. I don't know. Like, that maybe. I don't know.
• 32:22
  Speaker B: FYI facts. Good to know.
• 32:24
  Speaker A: I mean, they're not. They're not bad.
• 32:25
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 32:25
  Speaker A: No, they're not bad. Okay.
• 32:26
  Speaker B: They're not a guest.
• 32:28
  Speaker A: I know. You're doing good at this. I mean, I went on a tear for, like, a year where I was the only one getting it in. And, like, lately you've been just, like, smoking the word of the week. Job well done.
• 32:38
  Speaker B: There was a joke there. Okay.
• 32:39
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 32:40
  Speaker B: Yes, go.
• 32:40
  Speaker A: I know there was. Okay, number one, the term 911 almost didn't stick. Didn't happen. No. In the days right after the attack, all the news channels were using, like, a bunch of different labels because they were trying to, like, outdo each other. America's New War. Attack on America.
• 32:54
  Speaker B: I remember that one.
• 32:54
  Speaker A: There was one called Tuesday's attacks, but 911 obviously won because it was short fit headlines and it was a playoff of 911. Like the emergency number, which made it feel like super important, super immediate 9 11.
• 33:05
  Speaker B: Also I remember, like, with the twin towers.
• 33:07
  Speaker A: Twin towers, right. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was a lot going on, connected with it. And it's like. It's a word now. It's a word now. You know, you say 9 11, you're not thinking, oh, that's the emergency number. You're like. You remember 9 11? Yeah, it's wild. Okay, number two, as of 2025, reporting, the National September 11th Memorial and Museum reports now that after 25 years, the majority share of their visitors are students on school trips who were not alive when it happened. So it's. Remember, it's officially changing. Right. So before that it was people that were living it now, not any longer. They'd already thought ahead for this and they have entire sections of their experiences specifically designed for people encountering it as history. And if you went inside like we did, it is amazing. That's why my kids were able to last as long as they did. They've done an exceptional job. I mean, like, I think we've talked about it before, like the five most hollowed places in the United States of America. Anyway, 911 is one of them. Holy Jesus. My kids loved it.
• 34:06
  Speaker B: Okay, 25 years, man. I think that is the number.
• 34:09
  Speaker A: Here we are. That's why. That's why I thought it was a good one to do. Like, and that's why I thought it wasn't. Like, let's just talk about 9 11. Let's talk about his. Anyway, okay, number three. Okay. So through historians, like research and shit, they confirmed that one of the clearest markers of the transition that we've been talking about this whole time is when the event, like 911 will get its first fully dramatized feature film aimed at an audience that is assumed not to know the story already. So don't get me wrong, there's already been feature films on 9 11. I totally understand that, but that the blockbuster hasn't happened yet. Right. And that's usually the tell when we've crossed over from living memory to oh, it now needs context and Hollywood needs to take over. So trust me, keep your eyes out. I don't know when this is going to be. My guess is in the next five or ten years, there will be a Hollywood blockbuster. 9 11.
• 35:08
  Speaker B: That's crazy.
• 35:08
  Speaker A: Like a massive one.
• 35:09
  Speaker B: I mean, it makes sense. It tracks that. Like, I follow that. All right, well, before this Hollywood blockbuster comes out, if people want to learn more about 911 besides going to visit, what are some things?
• 35:21
  Speaker A: Yeah, there's. I mean, you got to know, there's books. I know, I know there are. But like going. And there's nothing that's going to take the place of going and visit. You have to. Yes, of course, of course. But I mean with it to be in the 25 year anniversary of this whole thing, like just watch literally any document go on any streaming service right now, literally, you could turn on Your television, and they'll just be populated at the bottom of the screen. Boom, boom, boom. Just watch any of them, right?
• 35:40
  Speaker B: Our curated lives.
• 35:42
  Speaker A: I know. I think that. Right. I think that's all. That's it. Like, just do that. Like care. Just fucking care. Watch something. Do. Be intentional about it. That's all I'd say. I'm done.
• 35:51
  Speaker B: All right, well, if you want any of this stuff delivered to your inbox, direct message. Pete somehow, whether on any other platforms, DM me on Instagram loves interaction, so please keep him preoccupied. That's all. But if you don't want to do any of that, just remember these details to seem sort of sophisticated. First, on September 11, 2011, for four hijacked planes at three sites, the World Trade center, the Pentagon, and a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, killed nearly 3,000 people instantaneously making it both the deadliest terrorist attack in history and the deadliest single day for firefighters in American history. Second, every major event eventually crosses from living memory into history. The point where more people know it secondhand than firsthand. 911 is right in the middle of that crossover happening in real time, which is part of why this particular anniversary feels different than the ones before it. We are living history right now. It's a moment. Third, once an event goes fully historical, it predictably loses what historians call emotional texture, and instead it starts picking up myths that outlive the facts and then subsequently has its emotional weight spread thinner across people who didn't actually live it. Which is exactly the same thing that happened with Pearl Harbor, JFK, and the Challenger explosion. It's not bad, per se, but it is part of the transition to history process. Fourth, photographs basically become the entire visual memory of a historic event for everyone who wasn't there. Which is why the projections project gathering 30 plus photojournalists who shot 911 for six nights this September matters more than just a nice tribute. And finally, the people who lived through 911 and the people who will only ever learn it as history are, for a short window, still alive and sharing the same space. But that window is beginning to close, which is a strange and specific thing to be alive for. So each of us do our part and never forget.
• 37:34
  Speaker A: Oh, I like that. Never forget.
• 37:35
  Speaker B: Throw in, I mean, that is so 9 11. Right?
• 37:38
  Speaker A: Job well done. Yes. There you have it. Dear listeners, we started today by admitting something kind of uncomfortable. That the thing that's permanently burned into a lot of us Gen Xers is about to become, for everyone, younger, just another chapter in a history book which kills me if we did our job today, you're walking away with something a little more useful than just here's what happened on 9 11. You're walking away knowing that you're standing in a room that's about to change, where the people who lived it and the people who will only ever learn it are still sitting next to each other. For now. And maybe the job of the people who actually lived it isn't to protect the memory forever. Maybe it's just to hand it off. Really good, I think, is what we've been trying to say. Get the details right while we still can. Tell the story with the texture that Amanda brought, the emotional texture Amanda was talking about one more time to somebody who's gonna be the one telling it after we can't. As always, if you like what you just heard, hit subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who was not alive for this one. Tell them where you were. That's the whole point. Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and this week, go remember something out loud before it becomes somebody else's homework.