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The Hidden Breathing Problem That Can Look Like ADHD · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: G'day, this is the Happy Families Podcast. Today, a conversation
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  Speaker 1: that's quite different to what we normally do. Dentistry is
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  Speaker 1: not what we normally talk about here, but stay with me.
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  Speaker 2: Don't go away.
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  Speaker 1: This is very much about parenting. Did you know that
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  Speaker 1: more than half of kids breathe through their mouths? And
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  Speaker 1: most parents have never been told that it matters. In fact,
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  Speaker 1: until a few years ago, I didn't know it mattered.
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  Speaker 1: But then I got right into breathing and read a
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  Speaker 1: book called Breathe or Breath or something like that by
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  Speaker 1: a guy called James Nestor. And it totally changed the
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  Speaker 1: way that I see the way that we breathe. And
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  Speaker 1: All of a sudden, I'm walking around telling my kids
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  Speaker 1: to close their mouth when they breathe and make sure
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  Speaker 1: they breathe through their nose, and my kids think I'm
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  Speaker 1: a little bit militant about it, and it seems a
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  Speaker 1: bit silly. I never talk about it on the podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I've never talked about it in any of my parenting workshops,
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  Speaker 1: but I've come across a dentist by the name of
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  Speaker 1: Jason Long, based in Perth, who explains today what he
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  Speaker 1: sees in children's mouths if they're mouth breathers, things that
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  Speaker 1: we as parents never notice, what it's doing to their sleep,
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  Speaker 1: what it's doing to their teeth, what it's doing to
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  Speaker 1: their face. and how you can tell tonight whether your
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  Speaker 1: child has a problem. Fascinating conversation about your child and
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  Speaker 1: their breathing, and maybe you and your breathing as well,
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  Speaker 1: right after this. Stay with us. Hello, this is the
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  Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every day. It's Australia's
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  Speaker 1: most downloaded parenting podcast. I'm Dr. Justin Coulson, the dad
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  Speaker 1: to six kids who I insist must breathe through their noses,
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  Speaker 1: and they look at me and think that I'm bizarre, strange, weird,
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  Speaker 1: and a whole lot of other things. And I'll tell
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  Speaker 1: you why. No, in fact, I'm not going to tell
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  Speaker 1: you why. I'm going to let.
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  Speaker 2: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Jason Leung will tell you why.
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  Speaker 2: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Leung is a dentist. He's based in Perth, focuses a
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  Speaker 1: lot on child development and dentistry. He helps children who
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  Speaker 1: are experiencing sleep issues, behavioral challenges, and developmental concerns by
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  Speaker 1: uncovering underlying breathing and oral function issues that we very
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  Speaker 1: easily overlook, don't even think about when we're talking about
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  Speaker 1: our children's challenging behaviors. Who would have thought dentistry and
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  Speaker 1: challenging behavior could be linked? So today, Dr. Jason Leung
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  Speaker 1: joins me to have a conversation about these questions. Jason,
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  Speaker 1: really nice to have you on the podcast. Thanks for
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  Speaker 1: being here. Let me ask the simplest question that I
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  Speaker 1: possibly can. What's the matter with breathing through your mouth?
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  Speaker 2: So mouth breathing basically can cause decay, gum problem, and
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  Speaker 2: dry air through breathing through the mouth can cause the
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  Speaker 2: enlargement of the tonsils and the adenoids if there's not
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  Speaker 2: due to allergy. And most likely it will cause eating behavior,
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  Speaker 2: whether they're eating very slowly or eating very fast. Without
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  Speaker 2: breathing through the nose, it will cause the turbulence or
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  Speaker 2: the silence to be inflamed because there's no airflow through
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  Speaker 2: it to kind of clean the mucus in there.
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  Speaker 1: So gum disease, decay, inflamed sinuses, adenoids, tonsils, just to
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  Speaker 1: name a few. Most people would never have known that
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  Speaker 1: mouth breathing was that serious. We all We all breathe
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  Speaker 1: through our mouths, right? But you also argue that, or
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  Speaker 1: in fact, you cite evidence that if you're breathing through
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  Speaker 1: your mouth, that it can be related to our children's
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  Speaker 1: behavioral problems. And there's some evidence linking mouth breathing to ADHD.
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  Speaker 2: Tell me more. ADHD behavior is more to do with
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  Speaker 2: if you don't have enough sleep. So when someone breathing
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  Speaker 2: through the mouth, what happens is the tongue collapses into
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  Speaker 2: the airway and then they're more likely to not have
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  Speaker 2: a very good sleep. That means they can't get into
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  Speaker 2: a deep sleep. And a good sign will be snoring
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  Speaker 2: or grinding their teeth because grinding means they are moving
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  Speaker 2: their jaw to kind of open up the, pushing the
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  Speaker 2: lower jaw forward to kind of open up the airway.
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  Speaker 1: My dentist always asks me if I'm grinding my teeth.
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  Speaker 1: And that's why, right? Because my tongue might be blocking
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  Speaker 1: my airway and I'm not breathing through my nose.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Correct. And so if you don't have good sleep,
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  Speaker 2: what happens for a child? They're not concentrating. They're hyperactive.
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  Speaker 2: They're playing up. They're waking up tired. They're waking up grumpy.
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  Speaker 2: they just not going to cooperate with you. They're not
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  Speaker 2: well regulated in their nervous system. They have meltdowns. So
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  Speaker 2: behavior issue is quite common on the children that I see.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, in America, some states, not all states, some
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  Speaker 2: states require sleep study to be done for children before
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  Speaker 2: they can diagnose ADHD because the presentation is very similar.
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  Speaker 1: Our kids are just sitting there at the table. They're
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  Speaker 1: breathing in and out through their mouths. Then they're going
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  Speaker 1: to sleep and they're sleeping and breathing through their mouths
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  Speaker 1: the whole time. They're potentially creating a whole lot of psychological, physiological, dental,
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  Speaker 1: emotional challenges that are completely happening invisibly. We've got no
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  Speaker 1: idea that it's got to do with their breathing.
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  Speaker 2: No idea. I think we've been neglecting because as a parent,
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  Speaker 2: you have so many things to look at.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so after the break, when I was reading James
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  Speaker 1: Nestor's book a couple of years ago, I remember reading
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  Speaker 1: about how American Indian mothers would, if they saw their
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  Speaker 1: children breathing through their mouths as they slept, they would
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  Speaker 1: pinch their lips closed to force them to breathe through
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  Speaker 1: their noses. I want to talk about that. We've got
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  Speaker 1: to talk about mouth tape. And how do you train
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  Speaker 1: a child to breathe through their nose if they're a
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  Speaker 1: mouth breather and they're potentially doing this damage to themselves?
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  Speaker 2: All that and more.
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  Speaker 1: A million questions right after this.
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  Speaker 2: We're back.
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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. Okay, Jason. So how do
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  Speaker 1: you train a child? to breathe through their nose? Are
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  Speaker 1: you constantly saying, stop breathing through your mouth? Is it
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  Speaker 1: constantly just reminding them? Like those Indian mothers, they would
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  Speaker 1: just pinch their children's mouths closed so they would have
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  Speaker 1: to breathe through their nose. What's the solution here? Is
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  Speaker 1: mouth tape the right way to go?
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  Speaker 2: Those Indian mothers started when they were very, very young.
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  Speaker 2: So it creates a habit. What we want to do
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  Speaker 2: here is also creating a habit. It has to start
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  Speaker 2: from whether they can breathe through their nose if their
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  Speaker 2: nose is blocked. Structurally, whether we're going to make sure
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  Speaker 2: that they can or not. So imagine you have a
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  Speaker 2: blocked nose and you close that person's mouth. They're not
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  Speaker 2: going to let you close it for a very long
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  Speaker 2: period of time. They're going to suffer and they will
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  Speaker 2: pull the tape off if you're mouth-tapping and they want
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  Speaker 2: to breathe through their mouth. It's part and parcel of survival. Right.
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  Speaker 2: So if I've got.
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  Speaker 1: A cold and I'm all sinus-y and snuffly, then I
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  Speaker 1: can't breathe through my mouth. So I shouldn't worry if
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  Speaker 1: I've got a cold.
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  Speaker 2: Just breathe. Breathing matters more than not breathing, right? Absolutely. Correct. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: What we want to do is when they can breathe
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  Speaker 2: through their nose, then we want to kind of change
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  Speaker 2: their habits. So how we do it is by giving
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  Speaker 2: them tools and exercises that practice at home, making sure
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  Speaker 2: that the tongue is sitting right onto the palate or
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  Speaker 2: the top of the roof of the mouth. and lips
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  Speaker 2: sealed together and breathing. Breathing is almost an art. It's
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  Speaker 2: not just breathing through the nose. You can be breathing
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  Speaker 2: through your nose and still chest breathing. We want to
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  Speaker 2: breathe through your nose and using our diaphragm to breathe.
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  Speaker 2: So breathing is almost like you need to practice. And
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  Speaker 2: the other thing about it is if you are a
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  Speaker 2: chronic mouth breather, what happens is your body is not
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  Speaker 2: used to that kind of breathing. So it takes time
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  Speaker 2: to get used to that breathing.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, a quick personal question. I've noticed because I've been
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  Speaker 1: really concentrating my breath for a number of years now,
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  Speaker 1: when I'm doing a podcast conversation, when I'm giving a
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  Speaker 1: keynote speech in front of an audience, if I'm not speaking,
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  Speaker 1: like while I'm listening to you, my mouth is closed
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  Speaker 1: and I'm breathing through my nose. But when you're speaking
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  Speaker 1: or when you're singing, when you're vocalizing, it's all mouth breathing.
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  Speaker 2: Is that okay?
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  Speaker 1: Is this the sort of thing that we should worry about?
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  Speaker 1: Are we supposed to stop what we're doing, inhale through
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  Speaker 1: our nose and then start talking again? Am I overthinking it?
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  Speaker 2: Probably. When you're functioning, when you're running, for example. Right.
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  Speaker 2: If you can, I think most athletes actually try to
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  Speaker 2: breathe through their nose when they run. 100%. For elite athletes. Yep.
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  Speaker 2: It's part and parcel of training. It's almost like going
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  Speaker 2: to a high-attitude training.
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  Speaker 1: There seems to be a growing industry around children's airways.
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  Speaker 1: You go into a pharmacy, you jump online, there's appliances,
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  Speaker 1: there's ways of expanding airways, there's courses on getting kids
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  Speaker 1: to breathe.
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 1: How do you know whether your child needs any of
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  Speaker 1: this sort of stuff?
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  Speaker 2: I think the main thing is breathing is a function
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  Speaker 2: and it's not just structural. So when you look about expanding,
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  Speaker 2: looking at airway, you're just expanding the structure of it
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  Speaker 2: or making it bigger it's like a straw you're just
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  Speaker 2: using a bigger straw to it is easier but doesn't
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  Speaker 2: mean that you're drinking it properly you're still scowling it
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  Speaker 2: you're still sucking it very so so for us what
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  Speaker 2: we do here is work on the function of it
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  Speaker 2: the habits the muscles is there any compensation is there
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  Speaker 2: the proper use of the muscle the tongue and breathing
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  Speaker 2: whether it's reading through the diaphragm or not What I do,
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  Speaker 2: I think it's very simple. Our goal is to have
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  Speaker 2: tongue in the roof of mouth, lips together, breathe through
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  Speaker 2: a nose, breathe through a diaphragm. It sounds very simple,
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  Speaker 2: but we've seen so many children that can't do all
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  Speaker 2: that or some adult as well.
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  Speaker 1: Last couple of questions.
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  Speaker 2: Sure.
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  Speaker 1: What age would you want children to be assessed and
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  Speaker 1: looked at for the way that they're breathing?
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  Speaker 2: For me, I work with a lactation consultant, so as
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  Speaker 2: young as a baby. because they start breathing then. And
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  Speaker 2: also they use their tongue to suckle then because breathe, suckle,
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  Speaker 2: swallow is a function and is a complex coordination. For
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  Speaker 2: me personally, in my clinic, I would like to see
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  Speaker 2: children around three to four for a couple of reasons. One,
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  Speaker 2: I can't do anything when they're too young because they're
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  Speaker 2: not able to follow instruction. And I'm... therapy, exercise therapy
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  Speaker 2: based treatment. So as long as they're not able to
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  Speaker 2: sit there and follow instructions, it's going to be very
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  Speaker 2: hard to kind of coach them. So three, four years
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  Speaker 2: old is probably where I will start seeing them. And
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  Speaker 2: we start very, very slowly in terms of the program
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  Speaker 2: that we have.
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  Speaker 1: Jason, this conversation is just on my eyes so much.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so glad we've discussed this. You can literally look
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  Speaker 1: into a child's mouth and probably an adult's mouth as well,
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  Speaker 1: and you can tell whether they're a mouth breather.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: And then talk about the associated challenges that they're probably experiencing.
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  Speaker 1: My final question is this. What would you say is
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  Speaker 1: the biggest myth in your field right now? There's a
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  Speaker 1: lot of people who are out there who are all
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  Speaker 1: about optimization and maximization and trying to make sure that
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  Speaker 1: we're all living the best lives possible and maximizing our
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  Speaker 1: children's potential as well. What's the thing that you're hearing
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  Speaker 1: about the most that you think is actually a myth
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  Speaker 1: that's overstated that people are getting wrong?
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  Speaker 2: I think for me, it's a lot of people are
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  Speaker 2: focusing on structural stuff. Like, you know, like you said before,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the palate expander, the mouth expander, the taping.
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  Speaker 2: For me, those are... tools but sometimes they they may
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  Speaker 2: not be the right timing for them buying things and
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  Speaker 2: buying tools for me in my industry is the it's
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  Speaker 2: it's the greatest myth buying something to to do something
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  Speaker 2: is probably not the right thing i think for us
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  Speaker 2: if we need guidance just like going to the gym
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  Speaker 2: you say all right let's do some deadlift you don't
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  Speaker 2: start doing 100 kilos You start making sure your form
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  Speaker 2: is correct, your technique is correct before you do the exercise. Otherwise,
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  Speaker 2: you will hurt yourself. And that's what we are thinking.
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  Speaker 1: If people want more info, Jason, where can they go
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  Speaker 1: to get it?
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  Speaker 2: If you want more info, go to my website. It's
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  Speaker 2: called oralmyologyperth.com.au. Great.
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  Speaker 1: We'll link to that in the show notes. I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to walk around the house tonight and put my fingers
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  Speaker 1: on each of my children's lips and close their mouth
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  Speaker 1: to make sure that their nose is breathing. Really fascinating conversation, Jason.
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  Speaker 1: So grateful for your time. Thanks for sharing your knowledge
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: and insights.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, Justin.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulon from
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds provides our admin and other support.
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  Speaker 1: If you want more info, we will link to Jason's
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: website in the show notes. And you can get a
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: whole lot more about making your family happier at happyfamilies.com.au.