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Turning the tide? Detective inspector Graham Banks · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Approche Production Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanned, I'm
0:17
Speaker 1: your Host Adam shand Victoria police recently arrested a twenty
0:21
Speaker 1: year old man suspected of directing the operations of an
0:24
Speaker 1: organized crime syndicate that's behind dozens of fire bombing attacks.
0:28
Speaker 1: The arrest of the twenty year old man in Melbourne's
0:30
Speaker 1: Essendon area last month has raised hopes that police may
0:34
Speaker 1: be turning the tide in the fight against the offshore
0:36
Speaker 1: syndicate wreaking terror in a campaign of arson attacks against
0:40
Speaker 1: tobacco shops, liquor outlets and hospitality venues. The police alleges
0:45
Speaker 1: the individual is a high ranking local member of the
0:48
Speaker 1: syndicate known as the Commission. This lieutenant has allegedly been
0:53
Speaker 1: recruiting young men via social media and encrypted apps to
0:56
Speaker 1: carry out attacks for trifling sums of money. Apparently, he's
1:01
Speaker 1: boasted he has more than two thousand potential soldiers at
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Speaker 1: his disposal to commit crimes. He goes by the social
1:08
Speaker 1: media handle in a reference to how much wealth he's
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Speaker 1: accumulated while working for the Iraq based syndicate behind the attacks.
1:15
Speaker 1: The challenge for police is that the paymasters are beyond
1:18
Speaker 1: their reach overseas in this decentralized organized crime model. I
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Speaker 1: caught up with Detective Inspector Graham Banks from Victoria Police
1:26
Speaker 1: who's the officer in charge of the Gang Crime Squad
1:29
Speaker 1: and senior investigating officer for Operation Eclipse. Detective Respector Graham Banks,
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Speaker 1: Welcome to Real Crime. Thank you for your time. Now,
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Speaker 1: you've been busy, but it's been quite profitable the last
1:40
Speaker 1: twenty four hours.
1:41
Speaker 2: What's been going on, Well, yesterday we had a significant arrest.
1:45
Speaker 2: I'm a young man of twenty year old, but we
1:47
Speaker 2: can't go into too much detail now that the matter
1:49
Speaker 2: is before the court.
1:51
Speaker 3: But what will before the court.
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Speaker 2: Is that he's coordinated and tasked out very serious offending,
1:56
Speaker 2: including an aggravat at home invasion. We are kidnapping where
2:00
Speaker 2: the person who was kidnapped was actually the wrong person
2:03
Speaker 2: so later let go of and with serious injuries and
2:08
Speaker 2: at a hospital.
2:09
Speaker 1: The media today are carrying stories from the court last
2:13
Speaker 1: night that this individual is a very senior player, local
2:18
Speaker 1: player in the international syndicate that is really terrorizing Melbourne
2:22
Speaker 1: currently with arsens and the hospitality and tobacco sectors.
2:25
Speaker 2: Yes, so what we've seen evolved over a probably three
2:29
Speaker 2: to four year period is a serious and organized crime
2:32
Speaker 2: group which was initially led by person mo named chasm
2:36
Speaker 2: Hammad often referred to as Chasm, known by that singular
2:41
Speaker 2: sort of name within the community, but certainly within the
2:44
Speaker 2: organized crime community. He was deported to Iraq. Well, he
2:48
Speaker 2: was deported from Australia, initially set up base in the
2:52
Speaker 2: Emirates and then from their later into Iraq. He directed
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Speaker 2: a lot of serious and organized crime offending into Victoria
2:59
Speaker 2: but also across Australia, although that was initially to do
3:02
Speaker 2: or seen in RELATIONI of delictit to market, but he
3:06
Speaker 2: was also and always has been involved in illicit drug
3:09
Speaker 2: trade and any other series crime that can turn a profit.
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Speaker 1: He was also linked to the firebombing of the synagogue
3:17
Speaker 1: here in Melbourne, and that appears to have been the
3:19
Speaker 1: moment where Iraqi officials said We've had enough of you.
3:23
Speaker 1: You're now helping our sworn enemies, the Iranians. That's the
3:27
Speaker 1: time we locked you up.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the dynamics of the Middle East. I'm not completely
3:31
Speaker 2: a FAI with but certainly has been put from the
3:35
Speaker 2: head of AZEO. It was a cutout as the terminology
3:39
Speaker 2: that's used by the Iranian irj to direct harm into
3:44
Speaker 2: another country, in this case Australia and Melbourne. So it's
3:48
Speaker 2: not unique that type of offending. It's obviously extremely concerning
3:52
Speaker 2: across the world. We do see organized crime being utilized
3:56
Speaker 2: by foreign actors and obviously it's very problematic at the
4:00
Speaker 2: best at times, but particularly when you're targeting particular group
4:03
Speaker 2: within the community, as they did in this case.
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Speaker 1: Because Kaz from his jail cell in Iraq, it was
4:09
Speaker 1: thought that, well, he's under wraps now, we might get
4:13
Speaker 1: a breather here that he was arrested earlier this year,
4:17
Speaker 1: there was a brief hiatus, but the fire bombings have resumed.
4:21
Speaker 1: What do we know about his connection to what's going
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Speaker 1: on now? And how important the individual you've arrested is
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Speaker 1: to the continuing spate of crimes.
4:32
Speaker 2: Okay, so perhaps we talk broadly about what's happening, I'm
4:35
Speaker 2: sure so. The syndicate which Hammond was the leader of
4:39
Speaker 2: that probably was of about twenty persons who were either
4:43
Speaker 2: Australian citizens or spent time in Australia who relocated permanently,
4:47
Speaker 2: it would seem to parts of the Middle East, including Iraq.
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Speaker 2: So they were senior members of this group. It's not
4:54
Speaker 2: a formal structure, so it's a lot like where the
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Speaker 2: mafia had certain ranks apportioned to them, but they certainly
5:01
Speaker 2: probably understood where they necessarily sat within the pack, and
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Speaker 2: they persons off shore have continued their offending so as
5:09
Speaker 2: a desired obviously to make money.
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Speaker 3: It's all about money.
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Speaker 2: A group of directed harm because they felt immune from
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Speaker 2: harm themselves clearly has ultimately, you know, he's been arrested offshore.
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Speaker 2: The Iraqi officials have told assess information are defending over there.
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Speaker 2: Others are in different parts of that part of the
5:29
Speaker 2: globe where they probably think feel less vulnerable.
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Speaker 1: And the feeling was that he was being held in isolation.
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Speaker 1: People weren't getting to him, he was unable to direct
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Speaker 1: more operations. That's what we thought. But seems a deputy
5:44
Speaker 1: who I think you've identified as a twenty three year old.
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Speaker 1: People are calling him Ali al Husseini. I'm not sure
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Speaker 1: you can talk about the names. But has control and
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Speaker 1: command of that structure gone to this twenty three year
5:57
Speaker 1: old deputy.
5:58
Speaker 2: So the intelligence and information we have is that that
6:01
Speaker 2: person's been driving a lot of the offending, but it's
6:04
Speaker 2: not unique to him, and there are other people who
6:07
Speaker 2: have driven offending, but certainly the substantial part the intelligence
6:11
Speaker 2: we're receiving is that this person is doing that. And
6:15
Speaker 2: as I say, the list doesn't need to be necessarily
6:18
Speaker 2: a structure in Melbourne for this offending to occur.
6:20
Speaker 3: You just need people willing to take.
6:21
Speaker 2: Up certain roles and it's a crime as a service,
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Speaker 2: is what now the terminology that's been used more worldwide
6:28
Speaker 2: because it is a worldwide issue where people undertake roles
6:33
Speaker 2: for profit. Crime is always, certainly the higher end as
6:36
Speaker 2: generally always been about profit and money. So you find
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Speaker 2: people filling those gaps and undertaking that work, often feeling
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Speaker 2: that they're relatively well cocurned because of modern technology, and.
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Speaker 1: It makes it extremely hard to stop this where there's
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Speaker 1: a discontinuous line between the people that order these offenses
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Speaker 1: and those that carry them out. Yes, and it's always
7:01
Speaker 1: an arms race with crooks. But I think in your
7:04
Speaker 1: time you've been in this quite a while by the
7:05
Speaker 1: snow on the roof there, have you seen this kind
7:08
Speaker 1: of crim tasking almost like an air tasker style criminal network.
7:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, first, it's always been very very challenging to
7:15
Speaker 2: get and you would have seen it at the highest
7:17
Speaker 2: echelons of organized crime. We see them walk in the community.
7:20
Speaker 2: Community members know who they are from reporting in the media.
7:25
Speaker 2: Police certainly know who they are, and there's others that
7:28
Speaker 2: walk around on a non amenity, but police know who
7:31
Speaker 2: they are. Actually achieving the goal of finding evidence to
7:36
Speaker 2: requisite standard to prosecute for offending we know as occurring
7:39
Speaker 2: has always been very very challenging. So you've got that,
7:43
Speaker 2: and then you've put them offshore into another jurisdiction where
7:48
Speaker 2: it's fair to say, hands so very very much tired
7:51
Speaker 2: with a little bit like the night off the Holy Grail.
7:55
Speaker 2: We're determined to have a go, but short of arms
7:57
Speaker 2: and legs, and to an extent, so death penalty considerations
8:01
Speaker 2: are really challenging to get around because the offending, if
8:05
Speaker 2: it committed in those jurisdictions, would necessarily invoke death penalty.
8:10
Speaker 2: And sometimes those jurisdictions have their legislation is they treated
8:16
Speaker 2: as if it had been committed in that jurisdiction should
8:19
Speaker 2: that crime be reported to them. So we've got to
8:21
Speaker 2: try and engage with those jurisdictions through third parties such
8:25
Speaker 2: as the AFP, to try and influence other jurisdictions to
8:29
Speaker 2: prioritize work on people we can't really talk too much about,
8:32
Speaker 2: so that's the first challenge. So then they send messages
8:38
Speaker 2: and directions to persons on shore via encrypted applications who
8:43
Speaker 2: then at least one, but more often two to three
8:47
Speaker 2: steps removed from the crime's being committed, and all of
8:50
Speaker 2: those transmissions of encrypted applications. Not just those applications encrypted,
8:56
Speaker 2: but the devices are set up, often certainly with the
8:59
Speaker 2: higher tier level players in such that they can't be
9:02
Speaker 2: read and a very challenging police to interdict and collect
9:07
Speaker 2: that evidence from those. So if you looked at the
9:10
Speaker 2: world of twenty years ago and you was to have
9:13
Speaker 2: a serious crime committed up to include in a murder,
9:16
Speaker 2: you would often have the person who was seeking the
9:19
Speaker 2: murder to be undertaken directly involved in the tasking of
9:22
Speaker 2: that murder. There was opportunity, although limited, but potentially capture
9:28
Speaker 2: that evidence. Often those directions are given and what's known
9:30
Speaker 2: as a walk and talk, so in an environment where
9:33
Speaker 2: it would be challenging for police to capture it but
9:35
Speaker 2: not impossible to and there was other opportunities along the
9:38
Speaker 2: way to do so. So as we sit today, we're
9:41
Speaker 2: in an environment where crime is committed by people in
9:45
Speaker 2: principle offshore and certainly making the line share of the
9:48
Speaker 2: profit in relevant anon amenity with little fear of repercussion.
9:54
Speaker 1: You're right. Twenty years ago we were in the middle
9:55
Speaker 1: of a gangland war. Yes, and we had Carl Williams
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Speaker 1: who was ordering hits, meeting is hit men in McDonald's
10:01
Speaker 1: and big roosters all along Pasca Vale, listened in mini
10:04
Speaker 1: ponds and so forth, and it was very difficult to
10:06
Speaker 1: crack that code of silence for a while. Of course,
10:08
Speaker 1: Carl didn't pays hitmen, he paid deposits and didn't follow through.
10:11
Speaker 1: So there was an opportunity there for police to turn
10:14
Speaker 1: these key left tenants. Whereas this looks to me like
10:17
Speaker 1: the crime version of wack a mole. You've got different
10:20
Speaker 1: wack of moles popping their heads up who are simply
10:22
Speaker 1: tasked by a local taskmaster on behalf of the organized criminals.
10:28
Speaker 1: So in that context you mentioned the Black Knight, I mean, yes,
10:32
Speaker 1: Victoria police are determined to get a result, but it's
10:34
Speaker 1: not a draw as that one ended in the public
10:37
Speaker 1: is certainly wanting action because this is an increasingly terrifying phenomenon. Yes,
10:42
Speaker 1: we're not used to. I'm making the joke, it's not
10:44
Speaker 1: really a joke, but we're now the most flammable city.
10:46
Speaker 1: We used to be the most livable and there's a
10:47
Speaker 1: real public concern there. So the rest of this twenty
10:50
Speaker 1: year old Lessendon man is potentially very significant. I did
10:52
Speaker 1: notice the prosecutor said that the devices that were seized
10:56
Speaker 1: as part as operation make up a lot of the brief.
10:59
Speaker 1: How significant is getting inside the black box of this?
11:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't really want to talk specific to
11:06
Speaker 2: that particular matter because it's going to the court, but yes,
11:08
Speaker 2: clearly capturing direct evidence and we go back to the
11:12
Speaker 2: twenty years ago. A situation where you may have a
11:15
Speaker 2: hitman who gets arrested because he's found guilty or he's
11:18
Speaker 2: going to be found guilty of an offensive murder, and
11:22
Speaker 2: they looked to try and discount that sentence dramatically. They
11:25
Speaker 2: may give evidence, and they can give direct evidence of conversations.
11:27
Speaker 3: They've had with the person who's task.
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Speaker 2: The situation we have here is often they don't know
11:32
Speaker 2: who's taskin so we've got to establish that the task
11:36
Speaker 2: was given first of all, and we can capture that
11:38
Speaker 2: evidence by often when we arrest defenders who've actually committed
11:42
Speaker 2: the offense, they necessarily themselves will not know the identity
11:47
Speaker 2: of the person. Sometimes we're fortunate that there has been
11:51
Speaker 2: that familiarity and they do know who has tassed. So
11:55
Speaker 2: we're in a position where we can get evidence of
11:58
Speaker 2: that that we're in a position to proceed with charges.
12:02
Speaker 2: You know, it's been three years of this type of offending,
12:06
Speaker 2: and this is the first instance where we've charged someone
12:09
Speaker 2: who's we believe has been tasking out independently.
12:13
Speaker 1: And how long do you allege this guy's been operating.
12:17
Speaker 2: I think I've probably going to have to not go
12:20
Speaker 2: further with this particular person and just talk in general terms.
12:24
Speaker 2: The offending itself has been gone guns I say, for
12:27
Speaker 2: four years, so various actors have been through the whole period,
12:30
Speaker 2: have come up within that, and some of them have
12:32
Speaker 2: risen through various we'll call them ranks, but just given
12:37
Speaker 2: more responsibility through that.
12:39
Speaker 1: But clearly the tasking of the crimes is a very
12:42
Speaker 1: significant aspect of what's going on, and the ability to
12:46
Speaker 1: work off for remote control is critical to their business model. Now,
12:51
Speaker 1: how significant is it that you've managed to stop that avenue,
12:56
Speaker 1: that center of operations.
12:58
Speaker 2: It's significant that we can show we can do it.
13:01
Speaker 2: It's very concerned that I'm aware of how many people
13:03
Speaker 2: can fill that void.
13:05
Speaker 1: Imagine there's probably a B team and the C team.
13:07
Speaker 1: Even we saw we Carl Williams, he had to get
13:09
Speaker 1: up to like D teams. Yes, And the fact that
13:12
Speaker 1: it seems to be it's passing at a popular culture
13:15
Speaker 1: that these young people are finding an opportunity to enter
13:17
Speaker 1: the crime world through this avenue.
13:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely that a lot of people who are
13:22
Speaker 2: seeing offending from what we would typically assume would be
13:26
Speaker 2: a pathway into youth offending and young male offending, come
13:30
Speaker 2: from what would ordinarily considered as a solid home with
13:35
Speaker 2: no concerns around money, engaging at school and then we
13:40
Speaker 2: find doing this sort of thing. We've previously arrested a
13:43
Speaker 2: person who we saw directing crimes of this sort of
13:46
Speaker 2: nature about probably two years ago. He was a university
13:50
Speaker 2: student in a quite complex degree. Wasn't just a turning
13:54
Speaker 2: up and doing well, very affluent family, no previous history
13:58
Speaker 2: of contact with police, and once we identified him with
14:02
Speaker 2: a particular offense, string of other offending that you've been
14:06
Speaker 2: involved in up to importing drugs, so people very quickly
14:11
Speaker 2: do go from having no history with police to committing
14:15
Speaker 2: offenses historically the most serious in the crime book.
14:20
Speaker 1: So what's the next step? Because I think that I mean,
14:22
Speaker 1: there should have been the feverit of air punching, I think,
14:24
Speaker 1: and I read this store, I thought this is a
14:25
Speaker 1: significant moment and that the crooks have got to be
14:28
Speaker 1: lucky every day. You've got to get lucky once that
14:29
Speaker 1: used to be the maximum for police. Maybe it's changed
14:31
Speaker 1: in this different model. But I would imagine now that
14:34
Speaker 1: you know a lot more than you did before and
14:37
Speaker 1: you put a lot of care into this arrest yesterday.
14:40
Speaker 1: Crimes about methodology, yeah okay, yes, and it's an arms race.
14:43
Speaker 1: Police need to keep ahead of that with technology and
14:46
Speaker 1: also your operational methods yea, how much have you learned?
14:49
Speaker 3: Okay?
14:49
Speaker 1: So Operation Eclipse generally okay.
14:51
Speaker 2: So if we're talking about there's several reasons why we're
14:56
Speaker 2: in a position where we're in. First of all, it's
14:58
Speaker 2: obviously got a criminal enterprise who seeking to make profit.
15:02
Speaker 2: You've got capability to do so stand through technology. And
15:07
Speaker 2: what we have in Victoria is a large group of
15:11
Speaker 2: young male offenders who are willing to take on jobs,
15:14
Speaker 2: so we're not unique to that. And as I would highlight,
15:20
Speaker 2: if you looked at the country such as Sweden, which
15:22
Speaker 2: is a country we've previously aspired to be like with
15:25
Speaker 2: Norway and other Nordic nations, where they've got a very
15:30
Speaker 2: hands off approach to how we manage our young offenders.
15:33
Speaker 2: In particular, if you were to look at them as
15:35
Speaker 2: a nation at the moment, they were in a real flux.
15:38
Speaker 2: So in the last five years they've had a dramatic
15:41
Speaker 2: increase in organized crime and gang violence, to a point
15:44
Speaker 2: where last year was reported by the BBC there was
15:48
Speaker 2: fifty persons of the age of fifteen or under charged
15:52
Speaker 2: with either murder or attempted murder. You have crime groups
15:55
Speaker 2: who were tasking people to a bit murder because they
15:58
Speaker 2: were under the age of criminal responsibilities.
16:01
Speaker 3: It was then they're a nation that now is.
16:03
Speaker 2: Looking to move the age of criminal responsibility downwards and
16:07
Speaker 2: they're building youth detention centers which they didn't have for
16:10
Speaker 2: a number of years, and that's been directed from crime
16:14
Speaker 2: groups and individuals offshore. So they're experiencing a very similar
16:18
Speaker 2: thing to us. What Victoria has is that large group,
16:22
Speaker 2: and it is a large group of male offenders of
16:25
Speaker 2: that age group between fifteen and twenty five, who are
16:29
Speaker 2: prepared to do very serious crimes because very much like Sweden,
16:34
Speaker 2: there was seen to be no consequence to that. Now
16:38
Speaker 2: I know what the Chief Commission's been very forthright around
16:40
Speaker 2: consequence and I have as well. And consequence doesn't have
16:44
Speaker 2: to be a long jail term, but it has to
16:46
Speaker 2: be consequential to the person. And I think in my
16:50
Speaker 2: thirty seven years of policing, I've seen an evolution of
16:53
Speaker 2: how young people have behaved. I understood the rationale behind
16:57
Speaker 2: the children and Young Persons actives who came in nineteen
16:59
Speaker 2: eighty nine, which was.
17:01
Speaker 3: Around young men.
17:02
Speaker 2: Studies have shown that young men who were incarcera ended
17:05
Speaker 2: up to become institutionalized, and often the pathway into initial
17:10
Speaker 2: carceration was through abuse and other things, and the offending
17:16
Speaker 2: was at a lower levels we would predict now there
17:18
Speaker 2: was people stealing cars, the joy rides and other things.
17:22
Speaker 2: So the will change very much. And I've seen the
17:24
Speaker 2: behavior of children evolve over that journey. It wasn't something
17:29
Speaker 2: that's only happened in the last two or three years.
17:31
Speaker 2: And I think young people have been drawn into crime
17:35
Speaker 2: that would never have been drawn into they haven't come
17:37
Speaker 2: from broken arms, they haven't been abused. Some of them
17:40
Speaker 2: have come from new communities into Australia and it's not
17:43
Speaker 2: been a clear pathway into settlement. But by and large,
17:47
Speaker 2: a lot I think a lot of people have found
17:49
Speaker 2: their way into this because they've heard from their friends
17:51
Speaker 2: and certainly now they see it instantaneously that there was
17:55
Speaker 2: no consequence to this really silly, serious behavior. So we've
17:59
Speaker 2: got to try and eat away at that number of
18:03
Speaker 2: people who are engaged in criminal behavior as a young person.
18:07
Speaker 1: But I think it's very clear that the police can't
18:09
Speaker 1: arrest their way out of this problem. We can't lock
18:11
Speaker 1: people up out of this problem. This is a problem
18:13
Speaker 1: for the community. Yes, the community needs to have a
18:16
Speaker 1: dynam mask. You can't be a politician today. But I
18:18
Speaker 1: think we need to understand the limit of what police
18:21
Speaker 1: can do to prevent the continuation of this crime spree.
18:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's well documented that we've had more
18:27
Speaker 2: arrests than we've ever had in the last twelve months.
18:30
Speaker 2: And it's true to say you can't arrest your way
18:33
Speaker 2: out of it. Arrest is an outcome for offending. Hopefully,
18:36
Speaker 2: if there's an offense been committed. So it's I'm saying,
18:40
Speaker 2: the systems we've had in place, you can't claim as
18:42
Speaker 2: successful if I measure harm. So which is I think
18:46
Speaker 2: something that's coming back into Victoria Police about how we
18:49
Speaker 2: send our resources out so we rather than just I
18:53
Speaker 2: think we've always tried to be intelligence led, but it's
18:55
Speaker 2: around policing to the harm. So if I looked at
18:58
Speaker 2: the harm that was committed in eighty nine by young people,
19:02
Speaker 2: and the harm that is committed now is exponentially, so
19:06
Speaker 2: we have to revisit all the systems we've had.
19:09
Speaker 3: In my view, it's not just about policing.
19:11
Speaker 2: In fact, policing is the last cogon the whare when
19:14
Speaker 2: things have gone wrong. Yeah, to change what we've been doing,
19:16
Speaker 2: because we've got children who are literally chopping each other up,
19:20
Speaker 2: significant crimes.
19:21
Speaker 3: Ad ours amongst themselves.
19:23
Speaker 2: Commit an agorabat at burglars which never occurred, involved in
19:26
Speaker 2: organized crime at a level was never seen before.
19:30
Speaker 3: So they're doing kidnappings and torture, and so.
19:34
Speaker 2: We've got to ask ourselves, well, what is it about
19:38
Speaker 2: the system we've got that's led us from a position
19:40
Speaker 2: where we thought this way forward is going to provide
19:44
Speaker 2: us with a better outcome.
19:45
Speaker 1: And to be fair, this is an election year in Victoria.
19:47
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you for you for a political endorsement here,
19:50
Speaker 1: but there is a strong media campaign, politically tinged talking
19:55
Speaker 1: about the level of violent crime in Victoria. And we
19:58
Speaker 1: all know, I know statistics can lie, but violent crime
20:02
Speaker 1: was a lot higher in the eighties than it is now.
20:05
Speaker 1: Tell you that and even the last the spiking violent
20:08
Speaker 1: and serious crime the last few years is actually abated
20:11
Speaker 1: this year. People will be surprised to know that.
20:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I don't want to get into the
20:15
Speaker 2: political also, it I've been at nine and eight nine,
20:18
Speaker 2: it's the year I joined.
20:19
Speaker 3: It depends what time of vance you look at.
20:22
Speaker 2: So I'd say an aggravat at home invasion where families domestic,
20:28
Speaker 2: no contact with any police or.
20:30
Speaker 3: Criminal in it. It was a very very rare occurrence
20:34
Speaker 3: in any eighties.
20:35
Speaker 1: With crooks on crooks more but but you also saw that.
20:38
Speaker 3: But even that was not a common occurrence.
20:41
Speaker 2: So so they we'd have run throughs, as you know,
20:43
Speaker 2: the Chopper Reds of the world who were doing drug
20:45
Speaker 2: rip offs.
20:46
Speaker 3: So certainly, but there's nine doubts.
20:48
Speaker 1: I think it was more in fiction than reality, by
20:49
Speaker 1: the way, with Chopper read that different podcasts quite possibly.
20:53
Speaker 2: So that's the violence of the community is concerned about,
20:57
Speaker 2: I think the most so. And there wasn't the level
21:00
Speaker 2: of aviolence amongst youth. So, and that's the bit of
21:05
Speaker 2: I don't dispute the fact that you institutionalize people when
21:08
Speaker 2: it because I don't think it's a reformatory process going
21:11
Speaker 2: to jail.
21:12
Speaker 3: So there's definitely violence.
21:13
Speaker 2: There was violence and armed robberies on banks and things
21:16
Speaker 2: of that nature recurring, But the violence between young men,
21:21
Speaker 2: it's not comparable to any generation. So no children were
21:24
Speaker 2: getting murdered in the way they are now.
21:27
Speaker 1: And people are waking up to the news. The local
21:29
Speaker 1: Tobeccanos has been burnt down, the local bar has been
21:32
Speaker 1: burnt down, and it's very much in their face that
21:35
Speaker 1: there's a lot of fear there. Has the tide turned now.
21:39
Speaker 1: I don't want to be too optimistic here, but do
21:41
Speaker 1: you feel that you're winning.
21:43
Speaker 3: There's been an impact.
21:44
Speaker 2: What my concerns and I did talk to it yesterday,
21:48
Speaker 2: is around we've seen an organized crime group that has
21:51
Speaker 2: been seeking to stand over what were gray market or
21:55
Speaker 2: black market operators, but operating in the community.
21:57
Speaker 3: In the tobacco instances are selling a.
22:00
Speaker 2: Legal product but illicitly, so they're continued to do that.
22:05
Speaker 3: That of course is a concern.
22:07
Speaker 2: Then you see instances of barbershops being arsoned, you see
22:11
Speaker 2: massage parlerspoon approached for payment, and some of them may
22:15
Speaker 2: again been operating in the gray or the gray market.
22:19
Speaker 2: But I'm concerned about where you stop and where does
22:22
Speaker 2: this methodology stop.
22:23
Speaker 3: Because it's attractive, it makes money, and it's at.
22:27
Speaker 2: A relatively low risk to the people who are directed,
22:29
Speaker 2: not to the people committing the offending. We've at a
22:32
Speaker 2: very significant success rate of arresting. Over seventy percent of
22:36
Speaker 2: the offenses in the Eclipse offending have been solved.
22:39
Speaker 3: But the person's offshore.
22:40
Speaker 2: Who've got very little care at whatsoever, well, no care
22:45
Speaker 2: for this community. Why won't they look to grow that
22:49
Speaker 2: type of business and move into normal white market operators.
22:53
Speaker 1: Because we're seeing the consequences for those who don't pay.
22:57
Speaker 1: Yes one, but assume that terror is leading a lot
23:01
Speaker 1: of institutized shops and things to pay.
23:04
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And we've seen for the first time in this
23:07
Speaker 2: type of offending via this commission, the utilization of publication
23:12
Speaker 2: via online forums of the offending to reinforce what's occurred
23:18
Speaker 2: and also to inform other people who may be approached
23:22
Speaker 2: this is what will happen to you if you don't pay.
23:25
Speaker 2: So it's the most concerned behavior and I know that
23:28
Speaker 2: community want to be assured that we can solve that,
23:30
Speaker 2: but things will have to change around how that approach
23:33
Speaker 2: is done at an international level as well at a
23:36
Speaker 2: national level.
23:37
Speaker 1: I think it's been a lot of pretty responsible reporting
23:39
Speaker 1: about these events, but we are seeing certain websites are
23:42
Speaker 1: being set up, Instagram accounts and things where footage is
23:46
Speaker 1: being uploaded by the crooks to I guess you'd call
23:48
Speaker 1: them sympathetic media outlets. What risk do they run if
23:53
Speaker 1: they're part of this overall apparatus of fear and intimidation, Well.
23:57
Speaker 2: They could run the risk of being a co offended
23:59
Speaker 2: literally within it. So we've seen very serious crimes which
24:03
Speaker 2: are actually still in progue being uploaded.
24:07
Speaker 3: So it has been done.
24:08
Speaker 2: Sometimes it may not be done willingly and other times
24:13
Speaker 2: that there's a cooperation that borders on co offending. It
24:18
Speaker 2: is a new phenomenon which we hadn't seen before and
24:21
Speaker 2: one that's probably going to be utilized by other groups
24:25
Speaker 2: in a similar way.
24:26
Speaker 1: True, because I remember doing the gang Lang War. I
24:28
Speaker 1: was privy to a lot of information straight from the crooks,
24:30
Speaker 1: and I said to your command, I'm a citizen first,
24:33
Speaker 1: I need to give that information to you first before
24:35
Speaker 1: I publish it and work with the police. And I
24:39
Speaker 1: think there's a public interest in that happening. What methage
24:42
Speaker 1: would you send to those who are going to be
24:45
Speaker 1: I guess ex officio public relations for this crew.
24:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's a message i'd send to a broader community.
24:52
Speaker 2: I think, in particular the offending group here, we have
24:56
Speaker 2: struggled to receive what you would ordinarily regard as citizen
25:01
Speaker 2: type information that people should be providing to can provide anonymously,
25:06
Speaker 2: can provide obviously in a witness format that we've seen
25:11
Speaker 2: in this particular offending group, very little information come from
25:16
Speaker 2: the communities as a whole around things they would know about,
25:20
Speaker 2: things I know about relatives, things I know about neighbors behavior.
25:24
Speaker 2: So that's a little bit unique as well. There's probably
25:28
Speaker 2: rationale for that, but it's probably a particular demographic that
25:32
Speaker 2: have struggled.
25:33
Speaker 3: I suppose trust police maybe.
25:35
Speaker 1: So it seems like that the power is definitely offshore
25:40
Speaker 1: kaz Is in jail, you've got a new lieutenant running
25:43
Speaker 1: things and maybe other people there is that this is
25:46
Speaker 1: success ultimately depended upon coloring those individuals with the cooperation
25:52
Speaker 1: of the Middle Eastern police forces and powers and the AFP.
25:56
Speaker 2: Yes, it would be because they're not going to stop
25:58
Speaker 2: offending rather freedom. So how that's achieved in the current framework,
26:04
Speaker 2: We've got to bipartisan approach around not undertaking any action
26:08
Speaker 2: that might lead to a death penalty anywhere in the
26:11
Speaker 2: world against any citizen.
26:12
Speaker 3: So whether that.
26:15
Speaker 2: Still holds water in the way the world operates, I
26:19
Speaker 2: certainly would challenge a little bit.
26:21
Speaker 3: I know the rationale when we look at the.
26:24
Speaker 2: Bali nine, and I think vast majority of people would
26:26
Speaker 2: say that was an inappropriate way policing and information sharing
26:30
Speaker 2: which leads to mules being effectively put in on death
26:35
Speaker 2: row in relative terms, not that serious offending, serious offending,
26:40
Speaker 2: but not in the context of people who are directing it.
26:43
Speaker 2: And in this instance, you've got people directing hundreds of
26:46
Speaker 2: kilos tons of drugs literally into Australia, directing serious acts
26:52
Speaker 2: of violence, arsons, murders, extortions, And the concern is often
26:59
Speaker 2: when they're not even Australian citizens that if we inform
27:02
Speaker 2: another nationality that this might occur, that may and it
27:06
Speaker 2: may be looked at, prosecuted and ultimately put to death.
27:11
Speaker 2: I drawing analogy is how we've approached critical incidents in
27:15
Speaker 2: Australia and in Victoria particular. And you would have been
27:18
Speaker 2: around when police shootings brought about Project Beacon, which led
27:22
Speaker 2: to a different approach of how police went about responding
27:26
Speaker 2: to critical instance where an armed defender may have shot someone,
27:30
Speaker 2: stabbed someone, and the pre whole I suppose concept of
27:35
Speaker 2: that was around cordon the container, not confronting the offender,
27:39
Speaker 2: and to afford in any way shape or form an
27:41
Speaker 2: opportunity where police may be forced to use lethal force
27:45
Speaker 2: on that person. And that policy stood for a better
27:48
Speaker 2: part of sort of fifteen sixteen years, and I think
27:52
Speaker 2: it was around about early two thousand suld be two
27:55
Speaker 2: thousands there was a review of how we went about
27:58
Speaker 2: doing that because there'd been certain incidents in America where
28:02
Speaker 2: active armed defenders had murdered many children, please had failed
28:05
Speaker 2: to respond and done accord and contain top approach, and
28:09
Speaker 2: it was seen and outter humorous exercises on tabletop that
28:14
Speaker 2: Victoria's police response would most likely be similar to that,
28:17
Speaker 2: So of an active arm defender entered a school, we
28:20
Speaker 2: would surround the school and seek to de escalate while
28:24
Speaker 2: that person was killing someone. So we never had that
28:27
Speaker 2: incident occurred, luckily, but it could have occurred. We've now
28:30
Speaker 2: had a policy where we go and approach as quickly
28:34
Speaker 2: as we possibly can anyone who may be harming someone
28:37
Speaker 2: in that way. The consequence of that is known is
28:41
Speaker 2: likely to be shot, because that's the dynamic of that
28:44
Speaker 2: type of environment. As a community, we support that, but
28:48
Speaker 2: we don't support the notion of approaching another government and
28:52
Speaker 2: potentially putting somebody at harm who's killing our citizens.
28:55
Speaker 1: But police have to have the appropriate public license for
28:58
Speaker 1: what they're doing. And this again is a political discussion
29:00
Speaker 1: that happens at the federal Attorney general level and so forth,
29:03
Speaker 1: and I think it is about the police being able
29:04
Speaker 1: to do their job without hindrance. And you mentioned Operation Beacon.
29:07
Speaker 1: During the hearings for that, there was a moment where
29:09
Speaker 1: a senior officer was asked, well, why a Victorian police
29:12
Speaker 1: officers shooting so many suspects, and he said, because we
29:14
Speaker 1: shoot straight and that's what the public expects as well,
29:17
Speaker 1: and the public expects results now, and I think the
29:20
Speaker 1: general view and you don't have to comment on this,
29:21
Speaker 1: but i'll just make this statement that the public view
29:24
Speaker 1: is that if you take yourself offshore and try to
29:27
Speaker 1: take yourself away from the protections of the Thisustralian legal
29:29
Speaker 1: system and direct these sort of serious offenses, you get
29:33
Speaker 1: your right whack.
29:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there is, but I don't think the
29:36
Speaker 2: public understand it. We can't engage with those countries to
29:39
Speaker 2: inform them of what their behavior is.
29:42
Speaker 3: I suppose.
29:43
Speaker 2: I think the committee should be aware of that ununderstanding
29:46
Speaker 2: because it is a significant impediment, and you can have
29:49
Speaker 2: them maintained the policy of not engaging, but it's informed.
29:54
Speaker 1: So the alternative is to seek the arrest with the
29:56
Speaker 1: co operation of foreign police forces and the extradition back
29:59
Speaker 1: to Australia. That sounds like a very long, expensive process.
30:03
Speaker 2: Now, I would suggest that process would be we've reprovided
30:06
Speaker 2: him intelligence as we do with other jurisdictions which don't
30:09
Speaker 2: have the death penalty, and allow them to work through
30:13
Speaker 2: that process. If we do go through the process as
30:17
Speaker 2: you describe, you're correct, it's multiple years and the level
30:20
Speaker 2: and speed of which this offending has occurred has changed
30:24
Speaker 2: dramatically from you know, when the Gangland Wars were on,
30:27
Speaker 2: and the number of victims and the potential for general
30:31
Speaker 2: harm within the community's grown enormously. For every vibe imban,
30:34
Speaker 2: there's probably one or two aggravated home invasions to supply
30:37
Speaker 2: the vehicles. So the harm that's caused by these individuals
30:43
Speaker 2: should not be understated and it should be fully understood.
30:45
Speaker 1: That's right. And so in the meantime, all that very
30:48
Speaker 1: political process continues, you're left with dealing with the consequences
30:51
Speaker 1: on the ground and catching these individuals like this twenty
30:54
Speaker 1: year old Essendon man.
30:56
Speaker 3: And it's a.
30:57
Speaker 1: Very disturbing picture where someone can be as he described
31:00
Speaker 1: himself as an ordinary young man going to the gym
31:02
Speaker 1: and living with his parents and taking time from video
31:05
Speaker 1: game to go into is encrypted app and direct crime.
31:09
Speaker 2: And this is the naminity of offending what can be
31:13
Speaker 2: so without going to specific sometimes we get intelligence which
31:17
Speaker 2: we can hone in on and identify people from. But
31:20
Speaker 2: other times these young people all they are is a
31:24
Speaker 2: handle so and if they run their business diligently enough,
31:30
Speaker 2: it's very very charming.
31:31
Speaker 1: Yes, but back with the Ganglan War when suspects hit
31:35
Speaker 1: men and so forth were turning and giving evidence. It
31:38
Speaker 1: was an enormous insight into the offending and ultimately the
31:42
Speaker 1: Gangland War was finished. Do you see this kind of
31:46
Speaker 1: arrest that we've seen this way trying to put the
31:48
Speaker 1: ball on the tee for you here?
31:49
Speaker 3: Great?
31:51
Speaker 1: Do you think this is the harb injury of what
31:53
Speaker 1: we're going to see? That will that will help the
31:55
Speaker 1: public believe the police have an answer to this, otherwise
31:59
Speaker 1: that they'll be thinking you're chasing your tails.
32:01
Speaker 2: I think the conversation in the community needs to be
32:04
Speaker 2: open and trans pirit and there needs to be an
32:06
Speaker 2: understanding that there's not going to be a simple solution
32:09
Speaker 2: to this crime as the service, as I say, it's
32:12
Speaker 2: not restricted to Victoria for a variety of reasons. We're
32:16
Speaker 2: more impacted than other places of Australia and people necessarily
32:19
Speaker 2: don't look outside of Australia, which I do the role.
32:22
Speaker 2: So I've undertaken and you see they're very, very challenging.
32:26
Speaker 2: So it's policing response is not the response it's going
32:30
Speaker 2: to get to. It will support it. But even with
32:32
Speaker 2: things such as it legislation rarely keeps up, and we
32:36
Speaker 2: see that across the board, regardless of whether it's to
32:39
Speaker 2: do with crime. We generally chase tail as in jurisdictions
32:44
Speaker 2: across the board around keeping up with what's changing. Uber
32:48
Speaker 2: is an example of that. It was a right share
32:50
Speaker 2: before it was a taxi.
32:51
Speaker 3: And now it's an industry.
32:53
Speaker 2: Goes behind the way and that's just a thing in life,
32:56
Speaker 2: and the same with the way Instagram and other programs
33:00
Speaker 2: have infiltrated children's lives. We wind things back years after
33:05
Speaker 2: they come in, so it's very, very challenging and to
33:07
Speaker 2: expect those sort of solutions. I think the police will
33:11
Speaker 2: then get this power, which will take five years from
33:13
Speaker 2: the day it's raised, if it's understood and articulated well
33:17
Speaker 2: enough and it's got public support.
33:19
Speaker 3: By that stage they're on diversion three.
33:22
Speaker 2: So it's about changing behaviors in the community, which is holistic,
33:27
Speaker 2: and making sure you don't have a ready supply of
33:30
Speaker 2: so many young men to do this type of offending.
33:33
Speaker 2: Part of that it is a consequence type thing around
33:36
Speaker 2: send using but also around stopping it in the first instance,
33:40
Speaker 2: which we haven't been holistically successful as a nation. I
33:44
Speaker 2: think every jurisdiction has had its issues, but you're defending.
33:47
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I wish you well and I do think
33:50
Speaker 1: that this should be the start of more successes. And
33:54
Speaker 1: you know, as I say, they've got to be lucky
33:56
Speaker 1: every day. You've got to get lucky once.
33:57
Speaker 3: That's it.
33:58
Speaker 1: Thanks for your time, No, thank you, Adam. That was
34:00
Speaker 1: Detective Inspector Graham Banks on the arrest of this individual.
34:05
Speaker 1: It seems to shine a light on the methods of
34:06
Speaker 1: these firebombers and they're offshore commanders. I think the points
34:10
Speaker 1: are well made here. Certain media is saying we should
34:13
Speaker 1: lock up all these young men, longer sentences, no bail,
34:16
Speaker 1: no parole. Is that going to work?
34:18
Speaker 3: Not sure.
34:19
Speaker 1: I think we might be setting ourselves up for a
34:21
Speaker 1: return from these guys a lot more hard and a
34:23
Speaker 1: lot more experienced. You won't solve the problem.
34:26
Speaker 3: Ow.
34:26
Speaker 1: The point's well made as well. If the public's not
34:28
Speaker 1: cooperating with police, how on earth do we actually stop this.
34:31
Speaker 1: It is up to the public to give information to
34:34
Speaker 1: assist the efforts of police. We're working around the clock.
34:37
Speaker 1: So if you have some information, please call Crime Stoppers
34:40
Speaker 1: one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. You can always
34:44
Speaker 1: email me Adam Shann writer at gmail dot com and
34:46
Speaker 1: I'll pass on information as well. Thank you for listening today.
34:50
Speaker 1: This has been Adam shanned for real Crime. Thanks for
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