Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Counterfeit Kingdoms, NAR, and Modern ‘Apostles’

Transcript

Counterfeit Kingdoms, NAR, and Modern ‘Apostles’ · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity.
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  No topic off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Hey, friends, welcome to another show.
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  We've got Holly Pivic with us today.
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  We'll talk to her in just a minute.
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  We're going to get into the N-A-R, the new Apostolic Reformation.
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  Before we do, I want to mention, it's hot off the press.
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  Is my book is available to order the e-book on Amazon right now.
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  It's going to be released November 29.
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  But anyway, there it is right now.
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  There's the cover, assault on the image of God, subtitle,
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  understanding and responding to attacks on the Bible, human life, and the church.
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  So again, the e-book is available for pre-order and the paperback.
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  This is just the author's copy that they sent me just to proof everything and approve it.
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  But that'll be out December 1st.
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  It's getting here.
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  So I want to bring in Holly Pivic.
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  She is an author.
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  She received her master's degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University.
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  And she helps expose N-A-R apologetics.
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  She's deep in theology.
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  She equips Christians to be discerning and to evaluate their beliefs
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  based on scripture and careful reasoning.
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  She's also a homeschooling mom.
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  And she's got several books.
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  She's co-written together with a Biola professor, Doug Geivitt.
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  She co-authored a new apostolic reformation, a biblical response to a worldwide movement.
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  And God's super apostles encountering the worldwide prophets and apostles movement.
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  And the book we're going to discuss today is called Counterfeit,
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  Kingdom, the dangers of new revelation, new prophets, and new age practices in the church.
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  Holly Pivic, welcome to World View Matters.
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  Good to see you.
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  Good to see you, David.
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  Thanks. I've been looking forward to this.
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  Yes, we've talked before on the radio and on audio.
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  It's great to be able to do this face-to-face and let our listeners or our viewers see you
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  and hear your responses here.
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  So let's start out with the very basics.
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  Tell us about the NAR and why you decided you've written a lot about this in the past, haven't you?
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  Yes, so the NAR stands for the new apostolic reformation movement.
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  It's a movement of very, it's a global movement and it's growing quickly.
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  And it's taking over churches in the United States and around the world.
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  And what it is is church leaders are coming in.
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  They're claiming to be authoritative apostles and prophets, much like the apostles and prophets,
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  Jesus' apostles and the Bible and the Old Testament prophets.
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  So they're claiming to have great authority and they're claiming that all Christians are
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  supposed to come under their leadership and receive new revelations that they claim to
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  be receiving from God in order to allow the church to allow all Christians actually to
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  develop miraculous powers like killing the sick, prophesy, and raising the dead.
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  And so that they can bring God's kingdom to earth.
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  And so they would say that the apostles and prophets have these strategies that God has
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  given these virtual warfare strategies to cast out high-ranking demons that allegedly
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  rule over like the societal institutions or revelations about how to develop these
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  miraculous powers so people can work even greater miracles than Jesus worked.
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  And so this is not Pentecostal Charismatic Christianity.
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  We like to be very clear about that in all of our books and our interviews.
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  The teachings are much more extreme and many Pentecostals and Charismatics are actually
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  concerned about this movement because the teachings are extreme.
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  They're not just teachings that some Christians have.
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  For example, that there's a gift of prophecy in the church today or speaking in tongues
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  or working miracles or these kind of things.
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  They're actually teachings that all Christians are supposed to submit to these apostles and
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  prophets and rise up in these miraculous powers as like an army of God that will bring
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  God's kingdom to earth.
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  And so the teachings have been very destructive.
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  That's one reason that we've written, we actually have another book coming out soon too.
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  So four books about this topic now because we've received letters literally from people
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  around the world sharing the ways they've been harmed by this movement.
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  The spiritual abuse that occurs under the hand of these apostles and prophets, children
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  just cutting off all ties with their parents, like grown adult children, going off and getting
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  evolved with these organizations and then never communicating with their family again.
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  People growing really disillusioned because of promises that a loved one would receive
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  healing or something like that that are made by a prophet and then they aren't.
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  And then they just walk away from their Christian faith and get disillusioned.
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  And so that's the reason we've written so many books about this.
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  So important.
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  I mean, it's divided the church.
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  And as you say, I think I read somewhere where one of the reasons you've been writing about
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  this is to help people who have been hurt by the NAR and it's teachings, share a little
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  bit more about that.
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  Yes, yes, people, you know, as I was saying, you know, you have people that get involved
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  in one of these churches and maybe they receive promises from an apostle or a prophet
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  that they'll learn to develop miraculous powers and they don't or that a loved one will
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  be healed of a sickness or a disease and that loved one isn't healed and they die.
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  And a lot of people will blame themselves if a loved one dies because the teachings
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  of the apostles and prophets are that you should be able to learn how to heal your loved
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  ones, your friends, other sick people.
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  And if you don't, the implication is that there's something wrong with you that you're
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  not, you know, obeying the apostles and prophets or following their teachings closely and
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  receiving all their new revelations enough.
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  And so because of that, people will blame themselves and go through real despair and
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  doubt and discouragement.
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  The division that you mentioned, I mean, churches everywhere are dividing because of this
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  movement, splitting because the apostles and prophets are coming in and claiming people
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  need to submit to them.
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  And if they don't, they're often called names like they're said to have demons influencing
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  them.
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  If they question or ever challenge the leaders of this movement, and so these teachings
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  really, their teachings are not supported by the Bible, these are not biblical teachings
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  even though they claim they are.
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  And so it's just causing tremendous damage throughout the global church.
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  So you write about, I think, the new age influences.
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  How does that work in here?
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  Because we know obviously new age is more a cult based or a cult driven and you mentioned
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  mysticism.
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  But I don't understand how apostles, prophets, they talk about evangelist, pastors, teachers.
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  So apostles and prophets were supposed to be up a higher authority and everyone else
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  is supposed to submit to them.
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  How does the new age influence fit in here?
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  Yeah, because so the leaders in this movement, you know, they're claiming that every Christian
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  should learn how to prophesy, heal the sick and raise the dead.
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  And if you're not, you're really outside the will of God.
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  So what they'll say is the way you can learn to prophesy or heal the sick is to take part
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  in active, what they call activation exercises, which have a lot in common with the type
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  of activation exercises that are used in the occult or the new age movement to teach
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  people like how to like psychics to, you know, this is how psychics learn to be psychics
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  and receive messages from the spirit realm and things like that.
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  And so a lot of their practices in this movement, there's things like the prophets and apostles
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  will claim to communicate with dead Christians and receive messages for the living today
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  from dead Christians.
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  And so that that borders on necromancy, you know, communicating with the dead, which is forbidden
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  by God expressly in scripture, along with with other occultic and new age practices.
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  So so but the key thing to realize is the leaders in this movement will actually, they actually
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  say they realize that their practices that they're promoting look like new age practices.
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  What they'll say is the new ageers actually stole these practices from Christians and that
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  these were practices allegedly, allegedly the Jesus and the early Christians taught.
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  They forgot about them through the centuries and now the church must redeem these practices
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  and reclaim them as a tool to advance God's kingdom on earth.
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  Wow.
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  Wow.
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  So you mentioned necromancy and that they can get messages from dead Christians.
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  I mean, what is there take on the Old Testament then?
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  Because there's so many warnings about being a medium or a spiritist or all these practices.
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  There's a lot of warnings in the Old Testament.
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  What what do they, I guess they don't interpret those as well, they'll say about the necromancy.
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  They'll say, well, this isn't technically necromancy because we're not initiating contact
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  with them.
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  They're initiating contact with us or things like that.
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  So even though of course that, you know, that distinction isn't made in scripture.
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  It's a little like witchcraft in a way.
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  Yeah.
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  There are a lot of similarities with witchcraft and the occult and the new age.
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  So it's very concerning to see these practices that are literally infiltrating churches because
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  there's these schools of supernatural ministry like Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry
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  based at Bethel Church of Reading, California.
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  That's the leading church in this movement today and they, these schools are coming into churches
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  where they're teaching people to engage in these practices and so they're being proliferated
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  in churches throughout the world.
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  So let's just pause right there for a second.
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  Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry.
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  I'm thinking, can I please see a book chapter in verse on, we're supposed to be teaching
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  these things.
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  I mean, you read, we know in the New Testament we're called to make disciples, we're
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  called to preach the gospel and of course to do the work of the kingdom but they misinterpret
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  kingdom work apparently.
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  Tell us about the supernatural ministry, what, what do they teach people to do there?
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  Yeah, so generally college age students will enroll at the school to three year full-time
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  program in Reading at Bethel Church and they are seeking to basically learn to become
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  miracle workers and so it's not an accredited school but the students at the school finally
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  refer to their school as Christian Hogwarts, which for those who know the Harry Potter
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  book series and the films, that's the school of witchcraft and wizardry in the Harry Potter
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  film.
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  So their own students call this school Christian Hogwarts.
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  My goodness and I understand how they call that really quick before we take a pause here.
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  So they believe that the apostles and prophets have the gift of healing that they all do
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  then everyone else is supposed to practice these gifts of healing.
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  So have you ever heard of anything or read anything Holly Pivic about them going into
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  hospitals and healing people in a cancer ward or to children's hospital?
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  Have you ever heard, are they doing any of that because if they believe that how are
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  they following through with, I heard some efforts to go into hospitals but I haven't heard
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  of results, you know, I haven't actually heard of miracles of healing occurring from
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  those attempts.
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  Wow.
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  Wow.
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  So we've got a lot more to talk about here with Holly Pivic and her website, by the way,
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  I don't remember if I gave it out, it's hollypivic.com.
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  Her last name is spelled P-I-V-E-K and the book we're talking about today is counterfeit
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  kingdom.
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  We'll be right back.
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  Today's show is brought to you by Harbinger's Daily.
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  World News Biblically Understood.
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  Stay informed at harbingerstaley.com.
• 12:17
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  So Holly Pivic, back to the book, counterfeit kingdom on the cover.
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  It says the dangers of new revelation, new profits and new age practices in the church.
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  So these are professing Christians that are putting this stuff out there.
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  I want to talk just for a moment about new revelation because I didn't think we could
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  add to or take away from the Bible, but is it true that so these apostles and prophets
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  and I got to put that in the air quotes, right?
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  They believe that they are giving new revelation and that they are getting new revelation
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  from God or from Jesus.
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  Yes, they claim to be receiving new revelation from God, different types of revelation.
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  So sometimes that revelation is for individuals that's like guidance and direction for their
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  lives or for churches, but in many cases this revelation is doctrinal in nature.
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  They claim to be receiving as particularly strategies for the global church to take the
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  minion of the earth.
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  And so for example, the seven mountain mandate is one revelation that many prophets in this
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  movement claim to have received from God about a strategy for the churches to take the
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  minion of the societal institutions and through that to take the minion of the earth,
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  the cast out the high-ranking demons they teach are ruling over these societal institutions
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  and then take them over.
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  And so it's a way to take the minion, but it's under the leadership of these apostles
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  and prophets who are claiming to receive this revelation.
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  They also claim to receive revelation about things, for example, that it's always God's
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  will to heal sickness and disease, there are no exceptions.
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  Revelation that declaration prayer is the most powerful form of prayer, which declaration
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  prayer isn't actually prayer at all.
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  And now they think the most powerful way to pray is by speaking words that they believe
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  create reality, much the way God spoke in Genesis and created.
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  And so you can speak healing or prosperity or things like that, you're making these verbal
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  affirmations.
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  But that's very different.
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  The Bible teaches that prayer is asking God, petitioning God, humbly making requests
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  of God, and then God decides if it's his will to answer that prayer request or not.
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  So in NAR, they teach that we issue like these prayer commands that the angels carry out
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  and they create reality.
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  So there's a lot of new revelations of that nature.
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  Speaking words that create reality, that's, now, so what would be one of the differences
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  between the prosperity gospel, which some used to call it name it and claim it, speak
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  it into existence?
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  I mean, a lot of people believe that.
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  They just say visualize and speak it.
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  And God will bless you and give you favor and answer whatever your request is.
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  What's the difference, Holly, between something like the prosperity gospel and NAR when it
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  comes to this, speaking it into existence or creating something?
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  Well, it's a lot of similarity.
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  The reason is the apostles and prophets claim that the prosperity gospel teachings and
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  the word of faith teachings are actually lost truth that the apostles and prophets have
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  restored to the church in recent decades.
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  And so they believe prosperity gospel teachings are a key to bringing God's kingdom to earth.
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  So so they are essentially the same teachings.
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  Okay, what about the dominion theology?
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  Is that different?
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  Is that the same as NAR?
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  Right.
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  No, they teach dominionism and the variety of dominionism, they teach as kingdom now.
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  And so there's more reconstructionist version, which is non-charismatic version of dominionism.
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  And NAR, the kingdom now dominionism requires that people submit to the apostles and prophets
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  and seek to work these miracles and signs and wonders and things like that to bring the
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  dominion or God's kingdom to earth.
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  Well, I can just see, I mean, most of us can probably look at this and imagine all kinds
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  of abuse, spiritual abuse when it comes to faking miracles to try to gain a following.
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  And I'm sure you've seen that money making schemes.
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  But I want to talk about something very important because this almost every church, every Christian
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  church has some form of worship, some form of music before the service or during the service.
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  A lot of it is based on Bethel, a lot of that music has crept into the church.
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  And that I believe that you guys have either told me that in an interview before you write
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  about that.
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  That's one of their vehicles to get into churches.
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  They're massively popular worship, which is almost worship attainment at some point because
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  it's not always theologically sound, the lyrics aren't, but talk to us what the dangers
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  of that holly.
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  Yeah, we have an entire chapter in our book, Counterfeit Kingdom called Toxic Worship
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  Music.
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  And it is, we explain that that first of all, the most popular music that church, all
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  churches are using today is coming out of our churches.
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  So Bethel music, Hillsong, Gateway music, Jesus culture.
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  So there's all this narrative and what people often don't realize is that theology of this
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  movement is weaved into the lyrics.
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  And the leaders themselves, for example, Bill Johnson, the head apostle of Bethel church,
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  he's actually said that he sees Bethel music as a tool for importing the teachings of his
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  church into churches throughout the world.
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  And he's also said that people will believe things when they sing it, that they wouldn't
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  necessarily believe if they just heard it taught, like from the pulpit.
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  So if they sing it, if they hear it in music, they'll be more likely to believe it.
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  And so there's an intentional effort on the part of leaders of this movement to weave their
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  theology into the music that churches across America and the world are using.
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  And many people will tell me and Doug that the way they got drawn into this movement,
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  the reason they started attending Bethel school super and natural ministry or got involved
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  with in our church is first because they really liked the music and that drew them in.
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  Wow.
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  They'll believe it if they sing it, if they sing the words, that is fascinating.
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  How would you respond to someone, Holly, that would say, yeah, but some of that music
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  is really good and it makes me feel closer to God and I like, because the congregation
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  at my church chimes in, how would you respond to some comments like that?
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  Yeah, well, you know, people like the music, they, they, you know, it makes them feel
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  closer to God.
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  And that's the thing, most people will say about music because they feel like they have
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  an experience with God in singing this music that they maybe don't experience with other
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  worship music.
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  But people just need to be very careful because, you know, music is the catechism of today's
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  church, as we say in our book, counterfeit kingdom, you know, that, that, you know, we
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  could often listen to a sermon on Sunday morning and sadly we may forget what the preacher
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  preach almost, you know, as soon as we walk out the door, but the lyrics to the music we
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  sang in the worship service or the music we're listening to and streaming at home, that's
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  stays with us and that affects our thinking.
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  And, and like I said, the nartheology is actually weaved throughout the lyrics of these songs.
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  And so there's buzzwords and our buzzwords that if you know this movement, you'll recognize,
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  but if you don't know the buzzwords, you might not recognize that you're actually singing
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  them as part of the music.
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  Music is the catechism of today's church.
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  Boy, that's so, I mean, more true than what I think it's disturbing, it's disappointing
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  because I think people put a lot of emphasis on the worship.
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  And sometimes now you have to put worship in air quotes because it is sometimes entertaining,
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  it is not the right, not doctrinally sound.
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  And I love the way you phrase that, Holly, we've got about five minutes left.
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  And one of the things I wanted to ask you about was I'm sure with all these apostles
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  and prophets, I guess we need to say so called apostles and prophets, I'm sure they've
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  made prophecies and have they been right, have they been accurate or have they, are there
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  any records of failed prophecies or things that didn't come true that you can point us
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  to?
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  Yeah, there are many examples of failed prophecies.
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  Most notably, dozens of our prophets prophesied that Donald Trump would be reelected to
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  a second term in office back in 2020.
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  And so that's a very high profile failure and in, and you know, those prophets, Chris
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  Velton's that had prophet of Bethel Church next to Apostle Bill Johnson, and he admitted
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  he got it wrong, but he'll say that doesn't make him a false prophet just because he made
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  a mistake.
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  He'll say it does create a credibility gap, but he's not a false prophet.
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  And so that's a teaching in this movement is that you can be a genuine prophet of God
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  and still make mistakes when you prophesy, although of course that's contrary to what
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  the Bible teaches in Deuteronomy 18, which is that if you, you, you, you prophesy and
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  it doesn't come to pass, then, then you're a false prophet.
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  And so, but there's other examples too, the prophets, the prophesy that COVID would be
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  brought to a really quick end.
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  You know, when that didn't happen, that was also in 2020, those prophecies were made.
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  There are just tons of examples of failed prophecies by leaders, they, you know, there
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  were also the declarations in, in 2019, December 2019, Bethel Church galvanized their, all
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  their followers worldwide to join them in making prayer declarations that a little two-year-old
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  girl would be raised from the dead, always a daughter or two leader at the church.
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  And so globally, people were joining in, even well-known worship leaders like, like Kerry
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  Job and worship leaders from Hillsong were joining in, they were urging all their followers
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  to make prayer declarations.
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  And the church for six days held these meetings where they were jumping and shouting and
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  chanting for all of to come out of the grave.
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  Of course, sadly, you know, all of died and didn't come out of the grave.
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  But that's another example of failed prophecies because they believe their prayer declarations
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  are prophetic.
• 24:02
  And, and the world that pays attention to this kind of thing looks at that and goes,
• 24:07
  oh, there's those wacky Christians thinking they can bring someone back from the dead.
• 24:12
  So Holly, you went to Biola University, great college by the way out there in Southern
• 24:17
  California.
• 24:18
  I've been there, known as a professor or two from there.
• 24:21
  Are there any examples in the Old Testament of prophets of God who made a mistake or a false
• 24:26
  prophecy?
• 24:27
  No, no, there are not any examples of that.
• 24:31
  Okay.
• 24:32
  Well, straight answer.
• 24:34
  So, so, so if they're making mistakes here today and they just say, oh, it's just maybe
• 24:39
  it might be a little credibility problem, my goodness, is that sugar coating it or what?
• 24:45
  Yeah.
• 24:46
  Yeah.
• 24:47
  It is for sure.
• 24:48
  And, you know, they tried to say that the standard has changed that since the New Testament
• 24:52
  times that, you know, prophets are not held to the same standard as Old Testament prophets
• 24:59
  and they'll say they'll say agobus is an example of a New Testament prophet who got his prophecy
• 25:04
  wrong and acts.
• 25:05
  He actually didn't get his prophecy wrong, but that's, that's, you know, something they'll
• 25:11
  point to in support of them seeing this, this change between the old, alleged change
• 25:16
  between the Old Testament and new.
• 25:18
  So the book is called counterfeit kingdom, Holly, Pivik, one more word from you of caution
• 25:23
  or warning for maybe some of our younger and out mean young as an age, but I mean newer
• 25:29
  Christians that are just really excited about the faith or maybe they're, they want to be
• 25:33
  a little bit, they maybe they lean charismatic or they want to be more expressive.
• 25:37
  Your caution about what we're talking about with the NAR to them.
• 25:41
  Yeah, it's very important to be, to follow the example of the Brains in Acts 17 and test
• 25:48
  everything by scripture, even when the Apostle Paul came to teach the Brains, they actually
• 25:53
  tested his words and tested everything by scripture.
• 25:56
  So if even an Apostle had to be built, you know, the great Apostle Paul had to have his
• 26:01
  teachings tested by the scripture that they had at that time, the Old Testament scripture,
• 26:06
  then we need to be very discerning and realize that there are a lot of wolves out there
• 26:09
  and sheep's clothing that Jesus warned about false prophets that would arise and work
• 26:16
  what seemed to be amazing signs and wonders that would mislead professing Christians.
• 26:21
  And so there are warnings throughout scripture to be on guard for false apostles, false
• 26:25
  prophets, false teachers, be alert to their tactics and no scripture well so you can test
• 26:31
  all teachings by scripture.
• 26:33
  Amen, Holly, test all things.
• 26:35
  I mean, Peter warned, Paul warned, John warned, June warned, and who else?
• 26:42
  I'm just trying to think of others, but anyway, there's a lot of warnings, read the New Testament.
• 26:46
  That's a good, good advice from Holly.
• 26:48
  So the new book, you mentioned a new book, when might that be coming out?
• 26:53
  Oh, lady in the next few months, so wow, should be pretty soon, yeah, Lord, Lord willing,
• 26:58
  when that comes out, we will talk to you again.
• 27:00
  So it's great to see you, Holly, Pivot, thank you for your time.
• 27:03
  God bless you, sister.
• 27:04
  Thank you, you too, David.
• 27:05
  Thank you.
• 27:06
  All right, thanks.
• 27:07
  All right, guys, wrap up another show.
• 27:08
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• 27:14
  or watch World View Matters.
• 27:16
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• 27:17
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• 27:21
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• 27:24
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• 27:28
  God bless you, and as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.