Latest / The Book Deal / Emily Maguire on non-fiction vs fiction writing, overcoming discouragement and practicalities of sustaining a writing life

Transcript

Emily Maguire on non-fiction vs fiction writing, overcoming discouragement and practicalities of sustaining a writing life · The Book Deal

0:00
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
0:08
We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
0:22
So no matter what stage of writing your at.
0:27
We've got you covered.
0:29
I'm Tina Strachan.
0:30
I'm Madeleine Cleary.
0:32
And I'm Natasha Rai.
0:34
And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
0:42
The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
0:56
Natasha Rai: Emily Maguire is the author of seven novels and three non-fiction books.
1:00
Natasha Rai: Her novel, An Isolated Incident, was shortlisted for the Stella Prize and the Miles Franklin Literary Award, and her 2022 book, Love Objects, was shortlisted for the ABIA Literary Fiction Book of the Year.
1:14
Natasha Rai: She was the 2018/2019 writer in residence at the Charles Perkins Centre at the University of Sydney and the 2023 H.C.
1:23
Natasha Rai: Coombs Creative Arts Fellow at the Australian National University.
1:27
Natasha Rai: Emily has an MA in literature and works as a mentor to young and emerging writers.
1:33
Natasha Rai: Her latest book is the Queensland Literary Award-winning and Prime Minister's Literary Award shortlisted, Rupture Emily, hello
1:47
Emily Maguire: Hi
1:48
Natasha Rai: How are you?
1:49
Emily Maguire: I'm good, thanks.
1:50
Emily Maguire: How are you, Tash?
1:51
Natasha Rai: Good.
1:52
Natasha Rai: I think we're both in the rewriting trenches at the moment.
1:57
Emily Maguire: Yes, yes, um, trenches is, is the word for it.
2:00
Emily Maguire: Okay, I'm just like for this conversation literally feel like I'm popping my head out over
2:06
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
2:06
Natasha Rai: Um,
2:07
Emily Maguire: yeah.
2:07
Natasha Rai: I hear you'cause I, I'm the same.
2:08
Natasha Rai: This morning I was reading through writing, and then I was like,"Oh, yes, interview." And then, yeah.
2:13
Natasha Rai: How's it...
2:13
Natasha Rai: How is it going?
2:15
Emily Maguire: Look, it's going...
2:16
Emily Maguire: It's going pretty well right now, but I think, as you know, it, um, it, it's a day-to-day thing of, of how, how that is.
2:24
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah.
2:26
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
2:26
Natasha Rai: I hear.
2:27
Natasha Rai: So, um, this is your first time on the podcast, and as you might know, we ask all our guests to give us the elevator pitch for their latest book.
2:37
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
2:37
Natasha Rai: And yours is Rapture.
2:38
Natasha Rai: So Emily Maguire, can I please have your elevator pitch?
2:43
Emily Maguire: Sure.
2:44
Emily Maguire: Rapture is inspired by a 1,000-year-old story about a clever young woman who disguises herself as a man to run away to a monastery with her lover, a Benedictine monk.
2:59
Emily Maguire: Once there, she proves herself to be, um, basically smarter than all the other monks and rises her way up through the ranks, eventually traveling across the world, becoming a great scholar and teacher, and then, still in careful disguise, rising up to the highest position in Rome, uh, the pope.
3:21
Natasha Rai: Wow, that's such a good pitch.
3:23
Natasha Rai: Of all the pitches I've heard, you'd think I'd get better at doing my own, but not yet.
3:28
Natasha Rai: Um, so you, you had to do a lot of research for Rapture, and I know that you've done a lot of research for the, for the novel that you're currently working on, and you've also written three nonfiction books.
3:42
Natasha Rai: And I'm curious about your research, like how it differs and how you use it when you're writing fiction versus nonfiction.
3:51
Emily Maguire: Mm.
3:52
Emily Maguire: Um, that's a huge question.
3:55
Emily Maguire: Um, partly I guess the, I guess the way to start thinking about that for me is that with my nonfiction books, they have all come, um, from a position of like here is this topic that I want to really explore and maybe even come to answers at the end of.
4:16
Emily Maguire: So I've had a really careful research structure, like these are the things I need to know about to write this, and it sort of turned out to be the book structure.
4:26
Emily Maguire: And obviously things change along the way as you learn things, but I've really gone into it with this idea of this is the thing that I'm writing, these are the things I need to know.
4:34
Emily Maguire: Whereas with the novels, um, so particularly Rapture and the one I'm working on now, yes, I started with a vague idea of what I needed to know, but I really write fiction from deep point of view and deep identification with character.
4:51
Emily Maguire: So, um, to be specific, so with Rapture, yes, it's based on this 1,000-year-old legend.
4:55
Emily Maguire: I knew I needed to, um, learn a lot about the period that it was set in.
5:00
Emily Maguire: I knew I needed to learn about the sort of political, religious hierarchies and structures.
5:07
Emily Maguire: But really what I needed to do was start getting in touch with who my point of view character was gonna be, this girl called Agnes, girl, later woman called Agnes, and start, just as I would with any other work of fiction, writing from- writing internally from her point of view, and then the research questions came from that.
5:29
Emily Maguire: Like, how do I understand what it would be like to be a girl in ninth century, um, Northern Germany?
5:37
Emily Maguire: Um, how do I know how she thinks?
5:40
Emily Maguire: Which meant then I'm realizing, oh, I need to try and read the things she would be reading.
5:44
Emily Maguire: I need to expose myself to as much as possible the world that was around her.
5:49
Emily Maguire: Um, and so yeah, the, the research was sort of driven by character and by the need to understand this character, rather than being an external structure of, of where I wanted to end up, which is, is more how I'd write- Mm nonfiction.
6:03
Natasha Rai: And so given that's the way you approach it, like, I, I've heard you talk about Rupture before, and I know that it, it came out of a, a paint- a work of art, right, that you saw a while ago?
6:16
Emily Maguire: Um, it, it came from a lot of different things.
6:19
Emily Maguire: It came...
6:19
Emily Maguire: I guess initially it came from a paragraph I read in a really old book on, um, medieval Christianity, and that's when I learned that this legend existed that there had once been a female pope.
6:30
Emily Maguire: So that was really the first thing.
6:32
Emily Maguire: But then I do, um, a sort of, uh, um, deliberate noticing is a big part of my writing practice, and so I kind of collect and journal, and I'm always collecting works of art and things that strike me.
6:46
Emily Maguire: And, and there have been several works of art, and I think the one you might be talking about is a Kiki Smith sculpture- Mm um, that struck me as, as really important to this novel and this character- Yeah without really knowing why yet.
7:00
Emily Maguire: And so I, I sort of surround myself with those images where I can and write towards them as well.
7:06
Natasha Rai: So what, what's different for you then in terms of the spark for some- writing nonfiction?
7:13
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
7:13
Emily Maguire: It's a, it's a question I'm not quite sure of the answer to- Mm except the way I think of in my mind is more like- With nonfiction, I think I know what I wanna say.
7:25
Emily Maguire: Like, I write...
7:26
Emily Maguire: I, I mean, I- I've...
7:26
Emily Maguire: It's only been the three books, and the last one was quite a while ago.
7:29
Emily Maguire: But, um, in nonfiction, it, it's like those are all sort of books around or to do with feminism and the lives of women, and it's really something like,"Oh, here's a thing I'm noticing, and I really wanna understand it more and tell other people about it maybe." Um, and so I'm s- I'm sort of driven by this, you know...
7:51
Emily Maguire: Didactic is a word that, it can sound very negative, but I think when it's intentional with writing, it's almost like,"Hey, listen to this.
7:58
Emily Maguire: Look what I've noticed."
7:59
Natasha Rai: Mm.
8:00
Emily Maguire: Um, and, and let me explain what I think is going on here.
8:03
Emily Maguire: Whereas fiction for me is just this much more I don't, I don't know.
8:07
Emily Maguire: I'm not trying to have a message.
8:09
Emily Maguire: I'm not trying to say something.
8:10
Emily Maguire: It's, uh...
8:11
Emily Maguire: So even just saying all this out loud now, I guess if I really sort of, um, simplify it all, um, it's like nonfiction is when I know what I wanna say, and fiction is when I don't, but I know there's- Mm something there, and I've gotta- Yeah I've gotta write into it.
8:26
Natasha Rai: Yeah, and what struck me when you were describing it then as well was the similarities actually, like that noticing.
8:32
Natasha Rai: 'Cause you're like,"Hey, look what I've noticed, and I wanna share it with other people." So that's pretty cool.
8:36
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
8:36
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
8:36
Natasha Rai: Um, speaking of noticing, you're an amazing reader, and we've had many, many, many talks about the books we're reading.
8:44
Natasha Rai: Have you always been a reader?
8:46
Emily Maguire: Yes, and I, I will just say that you are an amazing reader, and you're my favorite reader to talk about books with, as you know.
8:52
Emily Maguire: Um, yes, I've always been a reader.
8:55
Emily Maguire: I, I...
8:56
Emily Maguire: My, my family are all readers, and I grew up in a very book nerdy household as in, like, weekly family trips to the local suburban library where we'd all get out pretty much maximum allowed number of books.
9:10
Emily Maguire: Um, and then it was, like, pretty soon, I mean, very early running out of books for that week, and my siblings and I would just write our own.
9:22
Emily Maguire: And I feel now for our parents'cause the number of terrible little plays we put on that we'd written, um, or books that they had to sit there and read that we had written when we ran out.
9:33
Emily Maguire: So yeah, huge reader always and, and, and from a really early age attached this idea of, of making stories as well as- Mm-hmm reading them.
9:42
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
9:43
Natasha Rai: And at what point, maybe there wasn't a point, how was it to go from being a reader and then also seriously contemplating that you could be a writer too?
9:53
Emily Maguire: Um, that was a, an on and off kind of journey because, you know, yeah, as a kid, I just assumed that I was a writer.
10:01
Emily Maguire: I mean, I just was.
10:02
Emily Maguire: I just always wrote from, from reading.
10:05
Emily Maguire: And then I've, I've told this story before, but when I was in year nine, I said out loud to my, you know, an English teacher in front of the class that I was gonna be a writer, um, and he cut me down very publicly and harshly.
10:18
Emily Maguire: Ugh.
10:19
Emily Maguire: Um, so I think when I've told the story on, on ABC Radio, I said that he said nonsense, but actually he said bullshit.
10:25
Emily Maguire: Um- Oh'cause it was that kind of school.
10:29
Emily Maguire: And I know now where he was coming from, and it was from the place that, like, all the boys in my class were, like, gonna play first grade rugby league.
10:37
Emily Maguire: You know, everyone was gonna be a rock star or a footy star or whatever.
10:40
Emily Maguire: So it was, like, from that.
10:42
Emily Maguire: Um, but it, it...
10:43
Emily Maguire: I really admired him, and actually he was a great English teacher in a lot of ways.
10:47
Emily Maguire: Like, he would bring books in for me because I was such a great reader.
10:50
Emily Maguire: So it was a, you know, it was a more complicated thing than the initial, um, than the initial story sounds like.
10:57
Emily Maguire: But I did-- it did cut me to the quick because I suddenly saw myself through his eyes or through other people's eyes, and I thought,"Yeah, what do I mean I'm gonna be a writer?" Like, I don't know any writers.
11:08
Emily Maguire: When I really think about it, all the writers I read are dead or from, like, the other side of the world.
11:13
Natasha Rai: Mm.
11:13
Emily Maguire: And, and I did, like, it felt like I'd been going around saying,"I'm gonna be a pirate," or,"I'm gonna be a mermaid." Like, it was just ridiculous, and so I stopped writing.
11:23
Emily Maguire: I mean, apart from things I had to write, I just stopped.
11:26
Emily Maguire: It just seemed...
11:26
Emily Maguire: I, I felt so, um- Or shame, I guess.
11:30
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
11:31
Emily Maguire: And then when I was in my early 20s, I'd, I'd dropped out of high school, not directly because of that, but I'm sure it didn't help'cause English was my favorite subject.
11:40
Emily Maguire: Um, and I was working in a call center job, which was just a, a special kind of hell.
11:45
Emily Maguire: I'm sure many of your listeners will have experienced that.
11:49
Emily Maguire: And I just started writing again.
11:50
Emily Maguire: It just sort of poured out of me at night.
11:53
Emily Maguire: I was, uh, not sleeping.
11:55
Emily Maguire: And yeah, I don't know, it really felt like all the writing I hadn't done, um, for the last six years or whatever was just, was just there, and just coming out, and that's when I really went,"Well, like, who cares?" Mm-hmm.
12:09
Emily Maguire: "If it gets published, if it doesn't, if it can be a job or not, like, like, this feels right that I'm doing this." And, and that's when I really consciously started to think seriously about, well, okay, what could that mean to be a writer?
12:21
Emily Maguire: It doesn't...
12:21
Emily Maguire: It, it probably doesn't mean it's gonna be my career, but, but I am a writer, and I am doing this, so let's, let's go.
12:30
Natasha Rai: Amazing.
12:32
Natasha Rai: And what are you...
12:32
Natasha Rai: Like, it's, you know, y- you've written 10 books, and you're working on your 11th at the moment.
12:36
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
12:37
Natasha Rai: What do you remember about, like, publication of that first novel?
12:42
Emily Maguire: Um, I remember being amazed because...
12:47
Emily Maguire: So these, these are the olden days, right?
12:51
Emily Maguire: Like, I sound silly, but this is, this is like...
12:55
Emily Maguire: So that first novel was published in 2004, so really we're going back nearly a quarter century.
13:01
Emily Maguire: Um- Oh,
13:02
Natasha Rai: yeah
13:02
Emily Maguire: so, I mean, I, I wrote it on a computer, but other than that it was a very analog process.
13:08
Emily Maguire: Like, I had to print out the manuscript, and I sent it to publishers, the physical manuscript in big post bags according to publisher details that I found in a physical book at the library- Mm called The Writer's Marketplace.
13:22
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
13:22
Emily Maguire: And all the advice I read, which was also in books, not on the internet, and podcasts didn't exist, was this is almost impossible.
13:31
Emily Maguire: If you don't know someone already, and you don't have an agent, um, really you've got absolutely no chance.
13:37
Emily Maguire: So I went into it- Right in that spirit.
13:39
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
13:39
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
13:39
Emily Maguire: Yeah, right?
13:40
Emily Maguire: Like, okay.
13:41
Emily Maguire: Um, I did get through the Australian Society of Authors, I, um, won, I guess, a men- a, a mentorship-
13:49
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm
13:50
Emily Maguire: um, with the wonderful, now late sadly, um, Liam Davidson.
13:54
Emily Maguire: And that was literally the first time anyone else had read- Oh, wow like, I guess that process of entering that- Mm.
14:00
Emily Maguire: Mm and then having Liam Davidson read my manuscript and give feedback.
14:04
Emily Maguire: So that, that was the first time of feeling real in the sense that it wasn't just in my own head.
14:10
Emily Maguire: Um, and then that, I guess, is what gave me the, um, the, the courage or the delusion to, to actually spend all that
14:19
Natasha Rai: money-
14:20
Emily Maguire: Well, yeah, I think you need both, right?
14:20
Emily Maguire: Well, right.
14:20
Emily Maguire: And- Yeah and, and especially when you've gotta spend all this money, which I didn't really have, to print out manuscripts- Yeah and pay postage- Mm and go to the post office like...
14:28
Emily Maguire: So I did all that and, and but genuinely didn't expect anything to really come of it, and I was right because all the rejections came in, came in, came in.
14:38
Emily Maguire: And then after I don't know how long of doing this, it took ages'cause you had to wait to hear back, and it was by post, um, yeah, I, I got picked up by a tiny Australian publisher, Brandalose Schlesinger, um, who still exist.
14:50
Emily Maguire: They're a, a literally a two-person operation out of the Blue Mountains but, um, publishing beautiful, beautiful books.
14:57
Emily Maguire: A lot of, um, a lot of poetry, a lot of works in translation, which mine was neither.
15:03
Emily Maguire: Um, but they picked it up, and, and it just felt miraculous, and they, you know, they made it into a book, and there it was.
15:10
Emily Maguire: And it just felt like, okay, I've done it now.
15:12
Emily Maguire: I've done the thing.
15:14
Natasha Rai: What was it, and what was that book?
15:16
Emily Maguire: That book was called Taming the Beast.
15:18
Emily Maguire: Mm.
15:18
Emily Maguire: And as it happened, it was with this tiny publisher here who did a beautiful job.
15:23
Emily Maguire: Um, and the really significant thing apart from having a published book, um, was that they then sold the international rights of that first novel.
15:33
Emily Maguire: So even though it didn't really make any kind of impact here, in fact it was...
15:36
Emily Maguire: The couple of reviews it got were, were terrible, and I can still recite them from memory.
15:42
Natasha Rai: Oh.
15:42
Emily Maguire: Um, which as you know, Tash, I don't go looking for reviews now or read them, and that was a hard, hard earned lesson-
15:50
Natasha Rai: Yes.
15:51
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm from that first one.
15:52
Emily Maguire: Um, but despite that, um, it was published, uh, in the UK.
15:58
Emily Maguire: It got translated into, I think, seven or eight languages, and then it also had a US publication.
16:05
Emily Maguire: Um, and I, and I did sort of a, a little tour, uh, in the UK and then another one in the US, and that sort of was the real launching pad for me- Mm-hmm to have a career.
16:17
Emily Maguire: I think that first book here was exciting and felt wonderful, and felt like in and of myself I had done something that was really- Yeah important to me.
16:24
Emily Maguire: But in terms of then considering, you know, could this be a thing I keep doing, um, it was that, that it had those international sales and that it, it, it got some kind of, um, traction-
16:37
Natasha Rai: Yeah
16:37
Emily Maguire: elsewhere, even though it didn't here, that, that made me think,"Yeah, okay.
16:41
Emily Maguire: This, this- there's something here that I can keep doing, not just for myself."
16:45
Natasha Rai: And you know what?
16:46
Natasha Rai: Vindication from that moment that teacher said bullshit to, like,"Yep, here's my international deals," so yeah.
16:53
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
16:53
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
16:55
Natasha Rai: So along the way, were there moments or times where things felt bleak, or you faltered and you weren't sure about the career stuff?
17:07
Emily Maguire: Oh, yeah, constantly.
17:09
Emily Maguire: Career- Okay career-wise and, you know, writing itself-wise, craft-wise because, you know, they're, they are interrelated, but they are two different things, I think, um, in terms of despair.
17:23
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
17:23
Emily Maguire: Like, there are times when I felt really good in the writing, um, and that hasn't connected with, you know, a publisher or marketer or an audience or whatever, and that's, that's one kind of feeling despair.
17:36
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
17:36
Emily Maguire: Um, but actually for me, the, the worst is that the writing's not happening, and I don't feel that that's going well because that feels like such...
17:45
Emily Maguire: It, it...
17:46
Emily Maguire: That's my way of being in the world-
17:48
Natasha Rai: Mm
17:48
Emily Maguire: is writing.
17:49
Emily Maguire: Mm.
17:49
Emily Maguire: And so even though it sucks if, um, a book doesn't do well or a publisher doesn't want it or whatever, it, it does feel worse to me the times when I've written something and feel like this, this just is not it, and I, I don't know how to make it better.
18:04
Emily Maguire: And that...
18:04
Emily Maguire: you know, that feeling that the writing- Mm is, is not working for me is a, is a worse feeling.
18:11
Natasha Rai: Mm.
18:11
Emily Maguire: Um, but yeah, like, like, in terms of the world's response to my writing, um, I think the thing is about being 20-something years in and, and things going pretty well, the last book especially, is that it's easy to, um, for, for people outside of that to think it's, oh, well, it's a dream run, like, it's all so great.
18:33
Emily Maguire: And actually 10 books over 20-something years, um, and most of them didn't really make an impact beyond a very, very small circle of readers.
18:44
Emily Maguire: And so for most of that time, um, I've been, I've been just working with this feeling of as long as I still feel driven to do this- Mm and especially, like, even if, you know, I can keep getting published even in a, you know, fairly small way, making a fairly small audience an impact, that's, that's great.
19:04
Emily Maguire: Like- Mm that's better than, than working full time in a call center and wishing that I was writing.
19:10
Natasha Rai: Yes.
19:10
Emily Maguire: Even if I have to do a bit of that other work as well, which I always have, not, not call center work, but not made a living from it, um, for most of my career.
19:18
Emily Maguire: It's still how I wanna be living.
19:20
Natasha Rai: Mm.
19:20
Emily Maguire: And so I think, I think that's what's enabled me to keep going, is to never have that, um, expectation that this is gonna be a full-time career.
19:30
Emily Maguire: I am gonna be wildly successful.
19:32
Emily Maguire: That, that would be lovely, but, um- To, yeah, not have that expectation and to not, not overly attach the, the business of publishing or being an author with the feeling that I get from writing.
19:48
Natasha Rai: Mm.
19:49
Natasha Rai: So I wanna ask you a bit more about what you've just said, but I just wanted to also say that, um, last year I met up with Siyang Liu, the, um, the Miles Franklin winner from, from 2025, and he was...
20:03
Natasha Rai: and he said to me that you should be the person that is held up in every, um, writer's classroom across Australia as, uh, as, uh, an example of beautiful craft, and how to persist and persevere and have this...
20:21
Natasha Rai: build a career, and, and how- Me?
20:23
Natasha Rai: And how it should- I should
20:24
Emily Maguire: be that person?
20:24
Natasha Rai: Yeah, he actually said that, yeah.
20:26
Natasha Rai: And he was saying that- Aw for him, that you've always been this very generous industry citizen, but a- alongside that, just r- literally quietly working away and just, you know, getting books out there and building this career.
20:38
Natasha Rai: And he goes,"And that's what," in his view,"that's what a writer looks like in Australia." Like, that is what it takes.
20:44
Natasha Rai: So yeah.
20:46
Emily Maguire: Oh.
20:46
Natasha Rai: I'm sure he doesn't mind me telling you
20:47
Emily Maguire: that.
20:47
Emily Maguire: It's actually made me quite, quite emotional because that's, yeah, that's...
20:50
Emily Maguire: it, it's...
20:51
Emily Maguire: that's nice.
20:52
Emily Maguire: That, that makes me happy to, to be seen that way, yeah.
20:55
Natasha Rai: Mm.
20:56
Natasha Rai: Um, so then back to what you said about the times where you've been really happy or connected with something you've written, but maybe a publisher or an agent hasn't been that enthusiastic, like, what do you do with that?
21:08
Natasha Rai: How do you navigate that?
21:12
Emily Maguire: Yeah, it is, it is difficult.
21:14
Emily Maguire: Um, I remember, I guess the really striking example of when I kind of really went through it and had to learn this, um, was with my third novel, Smoke in the Room.
21:25
Emily Maguire: Um, and that I felt really good about.
21:31
Emily Maguire: Um, and when I sent it to my publisher, so, um, the response was...
21:37
Emily Maguire: Like, they were gonna publish it.
21:39
Emily Maguire: They'd, they'd, um, they'd already...
21:41
Emily Maguire: You know, we had a contract.
21:43
Emily Maguire: But the editorial response to it, I remember ringing a friend, a writer friend, and saying like,"They just actually really hate this book, and seem to want it to be a completely different book than what I'd written." And it was really spinning me out,'cause I was like,"They knew what this is when they bought it, and this is the book I've written, and yet from reading the editorial, it feels like every single thing about it is terrible and they want it to be different." And I had to...
22:14
Emily Maguire: You know, it was good to have a friend to talk to about it, but also I had to sort of tease apart all the things that were going on with me then.
22:22
Emily Maguire: And what I now know is that was the first time I'd been really, deeply, properly edited, and that now I love.
22:29
Emily Maguire: I love, love, love, love.
22:31
Emily Maguire: I want, I want that so much, to be deeply read and edited.
22:35
Emily Maguire: Um, and I hadn't experienced that before.
22:38
Emily Maguire: I'd had fairly light edits on the other novels.
22:40
Emily Maguire: Um, and so that in itself was a confronting thing, to have someone questioning all these aspects of this novel so deeply, and thinking about things that I just hadn't even thought about.
22:50
Emily Maguire: Um, and the other part of it was realizing that- I could still, I could still, um, determine what this book was.
23:03
Emily Maguire: That, yes, it's great to work with an editor, it's great to be well edited and to sort of even be in conversation deeply with someone who's thoughtful about your book and deeply engaged.
23:14
Emily Maguire: Um, but also when it comes down to it, it's my book-
23:17
Natasha Rai: Mm
23:18
Emily Maguire: and it is my name on the cover.
23:19
Emily Maguire: And what I learnt to do with that first sort of deep, very confronting edit was begin to tease apart which of these things am I having a reaction to because they're right, and I was kind of just, uh, taking the piss a bit and getting away with thinking I was getting away with something that I wasn't and just not working hard enough.
23:43
Natasha Rai: Mm.
23:43
Emily Maguire: Which of these things am I having a reaction to because I don't know?
23:48
Emily Maguire: 'Cause there was craft stuff there, like there was stuff to do with, you know, point of view that I was like,"Aren't I doing that?
23:53
Emily Maguire: Aren't I in a third limited point of view?" And I realized, oh, I don't, I don't really understand this enough on a craft level.
23:59
Emily Maguire: I need to do more work in that way.
24:02
Emily Maguire: And then what are the things I'm having a strong reaction to because actually, no, that does fundamentally change what this book is- Mm and it's not that.
24:10
Emily Maguire: Mm.
24:10
Emily Maguire: And even if people don't love it, this is, this is the book, and I, I can't make it a different book.
24:16
Emily Maguire: So I guess that that's a really long way of saying that for me it was a It was and has continued to be about trying to separate out- What is the response that is just,"This is not a book for us," or- Mm from a reader's point of view, this is not a book for them.
24:33
Emily Maguire: Okay.
24:34
Emily Maguire: And this is where I have failed to make the book what I want it to be.
24:40
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
24:40
Emily Maguire: Because they're, they're not the same thing.
24:42
Emily Maguire: Mm.
24:42
Emily Maguire: 'Cause you can't write a book that pleases everybody.
24:44
Emily Maguire: You can't, nobody can- has ever done it, and can ever, and I think should ever write a book that is like everyone is gonna say,"This is exactly how this should've been done." Yeah.
24:53
Emily Maguire: "Every aspect of this has been perfect decision by the writer here.
24:56
Emily Maguire: This is the perfect book that no one will have any complaints about or would change a word of." That's not possible, so you need to be able to figure out what are the responses from editors or, you know, beta readers or whatever that are about making this book that I wanna make the best version of itself it can be, rather than making it a different book.
25:17
Natasha Rai: Also, that sounds kind of boring.
25:18
Natasha Rai: Like, imagine if you- someone wrote the perfect book that everyone just loved universally.
25:21
Natasha Rai: Meh.
25:22
Emily Maguire: I mean, it's not, it's not as...
25:23
Emily Maguire: Exactly, so now you already don't love it'cause it's meh.
25:25
Emily Maguire: So- It's not
25:28
Natasha Rai: doing
25:29
Emily Maguire: anything
25:29
Natasha Rai: ex- exactly.
25:30
Natasha Rai: So I know I'm trying to crawl into your brain right now, which may not be possible, but that feeling or that questions that you brought to that work about, okay, you know, what is this asking me in terms of craft?
25:42
Natasha Rai: What is this asking me in terms of what the book is doing?
25:45
Natasha Rai: How did you...
25:46
Natasha Rai: Is that d- been developed over years of experience?
25:49
Natasha Rai: Like, how did you do it?
25:51
Natasha Rai: How do you...
25:51
Natasha Rai: H- is one inherently born with it, or can you learn it?
25:55
Emily Maguire: No, no, I definitely wasn't born with it.
25:58
Emily Maguire: I had to learn it, and I, and I, I don't think I nailed it on that one book.
26:02
Emily Maguire: I just know that that was really the book where I, where I started to understand that this was what the, the job was once the book got to that stage.
26:10
Emily Maguire: Smoke in the Room, I mean, I think I probably said this to you before.
26:14
Emily Maguire: I've, I've definitely said this in, in classes that I've taught, but that was my third novel.
26:19
Emily Maguire: If it had been my first, I don't know that I would've kept going.
26:22
Emily Maguire: It was such a hard and, and ugh.
26:25
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah.
26:26
Emily Maguire: Everything about it felt so hard, and, and so of course that is what becomes the huge learning experience when you do push through those things and keep going.
26:32
Emily Maguire: But if that had been the experience with my first novel, I, I don't know if I would've.
26:36
Emily Maguire: And it was partly that I had, I had done it twice before, as in written a novel um, and finished it that, that made me I guess feel like,"Okay, I, I can do this." But it was really hard.
26:48
Emily Maguire: I think, um, I think in the end it went through sort of maybe four or five full structural edits.
26:55
Emily Maguire: Um, and a couple of different editors.
26:58
Emily Maguire: Like it was, it was rough going.
27:01
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
27:01
Emily Maguire: And I'm really happy with how it came out.
27:05
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah.
27:05
Emily Maguire: You know, I mean, every book sort of, especially years on, you think,"Oh, now I'd change that, I'd change that." But, but I feel like the process worked.
27:12
Emily Maguire: I feel like it got the outcome I, you know- Mm-hmm it, that kind of process should.
27:16
Emily Maguire: But it, it was really tough.
27:18
Emily Maguire: Um, one of the things that helped was that, that the editor who ended up working on it most closely with me, Emma Rafferty, uh, who was in it, um, then and now I guess actually is at Pan Macmillan.
27:29
Emily Maguire: She, she is just one of these dream, dream editors who had a way of sort of...
27:37
Emily Maguire: I guess she taught me how to be well edited, is how I'd put it.
27:40
Natasha Rai: Oh, wow.
27:41
Natasha Rai: Okay.
27:41
Emily Maguire: Um, I can remember'cause I, I had a trip away around the time when we were really deep in it,'cause it went on for so long, and she was emailing me sort of, um, I guess scans of pages in which she'd written notes on and really breaking things down.
27:57
Emily Maguire: Like it was just such a personal, intimate process.
28:00
Emily Maguire: And she wasn't just saying,"Oh, well, this bit isn't working," or,"You need to do this," or,"You need to do that," or telling me things.
28:06
Emily Maguire: It, it really started to feel like a conversation where she was, um, getting, getting into like w-"Here's how I'm reading this.
28:15
Emily Maguire: Is that-" Mm"what you're meaning it to be?" And then we could get a conversation which really got to what I'm trying to do, rather than her impression of what it should be.
28:24
Emily Maguire: And that sounds like a basic thing, but it, it, it was quite- No, that's so important revelatory to me.
28:28
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah.
28:29
Emily Maguire: Like, that is the thing.
28:30
Emily Maguire: That is the thing of a good writing partner or a good editor.
28:33
Emily Maguire: And so I think we, we battled through it with that novel, and then that sort of became such a light for me to even now self-edit, or when I'm doing revision myself before it even gets to someone else, that when I'm reading over a bit and I'll be like,
28:48
Natasha Rai: Eh,"
28:49
Emily Maguire: to instead of just going,"I'm just gonna change this," or,"I'm just gonna keep fiddling around the edges until maybe it will be better," is to step back, and I'll often sort of journal or write a little, like, nerdy letter to myself.
28:59
Emily Maguire: Like, what, what is this trying to be?
29:02
Emily Maguire: Like, what are you trying to do here?
29:04
Emily Maguire: And, and work at it from that angle.
29:08
Emily Maguire: And I guess, again, I'm, I'm giving really long, sprawling answers.
29:11
Emily Maguire: But I think- No, I like
29:11
Natasha Rai: long, sprawling answers.
29:14
Emily Maguire: Lucky.
29:14
Emily Maguire: Um, I think the essential thing for me in all of this is just the idea that I really had to learn with that third book, with Smoke in the Room, that a novel is, for me, is made in the rewriting.
29:28
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
29:29
Emily Maguire: That, that the first draft, or even it could be, you know, several drafts in, but it's, it's not itself until it is.
29:39
Emily Maguire: Which i- which is to say that no version of it, until it's out there on the shelf, I guess, is the novel.
29:47
Emily Maguire: It's always a work in progress until it's not.
29:50
Emily Maguire: And so to feel like,"Well, we'll stuff it, this is just how it is," um- That's, that's not an option.
29:58
Emily Maguire: But this is how it is comes when you feel like, yeah, this is how it is.
30:01
Emily Maguire: This is the book.
30:03
Emily Maguire: And then every step along the way, you can still be having conversations and even if it's just with yourself or with your notebook, and making it more what you want it to be.
30:15
Natasha Rai: My mind is blowing up.
30:18
Natasha Rai: No, I really like that.
30:19
Natasha Rai: I like that so much because it's so true, and I didn't even know how to put it into those words because they just feel so true, and they're so resonant.
30:29
Natasha Rai: Like, yes, that's exactly right.
30:31
Natasha Rai: All the searching and fiddling or not...
30:33
Natasha Rai: The rewriting that we do, it's to find the book.
30:36
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
30:37
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
30:38
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
30:39
Emily Maguire: And it's, um...
30:40
Emily Maguire: Yeah, understanding that- I
30:41
Natasha Rai: think
30:41
Emily Maguire: I have to
30:41
Natasha Rai: go away and just be on my own for a bit and just think about that.
30:45
Emily Maguire: Go on.
30:45
Emily Maguire: I'll wait.
30:46
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
30:47
Natasha Rai: Wow, okay.
30:48
Natasha Rai: That's amazing.
30:50
Natasha Rai: Sorry, I- I'm just staring off into the distance.
30:52
Natasha Rai: I need to just calm myself.
30:53
Natasha Rai: Um, okay.
30:55
Natasha Rai: So on the other side of that then, is it a similar process when you're writing something that you're not...
31:01
Natasha Rai: You don't like, or it, it hasn't got to where you want, want it to be, or that you're happy with, and people around you are like,"Yeah, this is great," or,"This is fine"?
31:16
Emily Maguire: That hasn't happened that often because I don't really show my work
31:22
early.
31:22
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
31:23
Emily Maguire: I don't tend to show my writing, um, until I a- am already feeling, not necessarily this is great, but this is as far as I can go on my own now, um, and I need to see it through someone else's eyes.
31:39
Emily Maguire: So usually by then, um, I know that it's not working, but I don't know why That's why I need someone else's eyes on it
31:51
Natasha Rai: Ah, yeah.
31:52
Natasha Rai: Okay.
31:52
Emily Maguire: So I guess if I did show it to one of my very few trusted readers, of which you are one- for the last few books, and the response had been,"This is perfect.
32:02
Emily Maguire: Let's go," I would...
32:06
Emily Maguire: I don't know, I would have a bit of a crisis, I think.
32:08
Emily Maguire: Mm.
32:08
Emily Maguire: A bit of an existential crisis,'cause I only have really three readers that I really, really trust at that stage, at that early stage.
32:14
Emily Maguire: Mm.
32:15
Natasha Rai: Mm.
32:15
Emily Maguire: Um, and so far none of you have been off in terms of telling me something's working when it's not- Mm-hmm um, or vice versa, which sounds...
32:29
Emily Maguire: I know that sounds like I'm getting a bunch of yes women around me who are just gonna agree with what I already think, but it's actually not that at all, because it's not...
32:37
Emily Maguire: It's about the spec- it's about the specifics.
32:40
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
32:40
Emily Maguire: So I'm like,"Okay, here's, here's the manuscript, Tash, and it's, it's as far as I can go without seeing other eyes on it.
32:47
Emily Maguire: I know it's not there yet, but here it is."
32:50
Natasha Rai: Mm.
32:50
Emily Maguire: And then it's you actually agreeing, though very kindly,"Okay, no, it's not there yet.
32:57
Emily Maguire: Here's the specific things that tripped me up." Mm.
32:59
Emily Maguire: And that then s- can start that whole process of me like,"Oh," going back to those bits.
33:04
Emily Maguire: "Yes.
33:05
Emily Maguire: Yes, I see exactly what was going on there," and, and working on those specific problems.
33:09
Emily Maguire: So that, that has been my process.
33:11
Emily Maguire: So sorry, I, I do go on, don't I?
33:13
Emily Maguire: Um- No,
33:14
Natasha Rai: I like it.
33:14
Natasha Rai: This is, this is great.
33:16
Emily Maguire: I, I think to go back to your original question, the, the experience that I've had of writing something and just really knowing this is not good-
33:23
Natasha Rai: Mm
33:24
Emily Maguire: um, was I did write a novel...
33:26
Emily Maguire: So, so I've written a whole novel or a whole novel draft that no one has read.
33:30
Emily Maguire: Um, and it was actually after An Isolated Incident, which was my fifth novel, so it was quite far in.
33:37
Emily Maguire: Mm.
33:37
Emily Maguire: And I wrote this whole manuscript, and I worked on it as hard as I could.
33:42
Emily Maguire: I did everything I normally do, and it just is no good.
33:46
Emily Maguire: Mm.
33:46
Emily Maguire: Mm.
33:46
Emily Maguire: And it's just no good in my own estimation, and not even to a point where I think advice from someone else would be helpful.
33:54
Emily Maguire: And that's, that's a real difference for me.
33:56
Emily Maguire: That I can work on something and know, okay, it's not there yet, but it's essentially a sound thing that I'm doing here, and I know it needs some work.
34:05
Emily Maguire: And this is, you know, this is a lump of clay.
34:09
Emily Maguire: This isn't even a book yet.
34:10
Emily Maguire: And it's a horrible feeling.
34:12
Emily Maguire: It felt like I'd wasted years, whatever.
34:15
Emily Maguire: But I don't know any other way to do it- Mm because again, to sort of go back to my thing that I repeat all the time, like, like what we were just saying, you've gotta kind of write the novel to work out what the novel is.
34:24
Natasha Rai: Yes.
34:25
Natasha Rai: Yeah,
34:25
Emily Maguire: exactly.
34:25
Emily Maguire: And if at some point it's like,"Oh, what if this isn't a novel?
34:28
Emily Maguire: What if this isn't anything?" This is 100,000 words that actually isn't a novel.
34:34
Emily Maguire: Um, then maybe I could push that out and get...
34:37
Emily Maguire: someone might publish it, and just get it out there, but I don't want to do that.
34:43
Natasha Rai: No.
34:43
Emily Maguire: Because that feels yuck to have something out there.
34:46
Emily Maguire: That
34:46
Natasha Rai: doesn't s- yeah, that doesn't sit well with you.
34:48
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
34:48
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
34:49
Natasha Rai: So you're, um, a teacher and a mentor, so when you are working with someone who's either an emerging writer or aspiring writer...
34:57
Natasha Rai: I don't actually like the word aspiring writer,'cause if you write, you write, right?
35:00
Emily Maguire: We're all aspiring to.
35:02
Natasha Rai: Yeah, exactly.
35:03
Natasha Rai: Um, h- what advice do you give them, like, in terms of how they could maybe find trusted readers?
35:10
Emily Maguire: Mm.
35:11
Emily Maguire: Yeah, it's...
35:12
Emily Maguire: One, one of the things I say is, is to really take that seriously- Mm the idea of trusted readers.
35:17
Emily Maguire: I, I have seen a lot of new or newish writers get badly burnt by showing their work too early is one thing, but also to the wrong person.
35:29
Emily Maguire: And the wrong person could mean someone who, um, is going to be highly critical and not be good at actually wording that advice in a helpful way.
35:43
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
35:44
Emily Maguire: So it might be advice that is needed for the manuscript, like it might be really smart from a craft perspective, but I think there are ways to prevent...
35:53
Emily Maguire: What, what my goal always is, and because this is what, I guess, Emma Rafferty way back when kind of did for me and modeled for me, and even before that actually, Liam Davidson in that first mentorship, is somehow able to give advice that when you drill down to it is quite hard, in that, like, this is tough advice.
36:12
Emily Maguire: They're really going there.
36:13
Emily Maguire: They're not letting you get away with anything.
36:16
Emily Maguire: But delivered in a way that made me feel excited-
36:19
Natasha Rai: Mm
36:20
Emily Maguire: about getting back to work,'cause it was like,"Oh, yes, I, I can see how this is gonna be so good." And that feeling of collaboration, almost of excitement, um, as opposed to giving that same advice on a craft level that feels like- Um, I've written something really rubbish, and it would take so much work to make this good.
36:45
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
36:46
Emily Maguire: And it can be the same advice, but it's about the way of giving it.
36:50
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
36:50
Emily Maguire: So that to me is always really important.
36:52
Emily Maguire: Um, and I, I try and when I even sort of talk to students about giving feedback to each other, I try and make this really clear.
36:59
Emily Maguire: It's not about not saying the thing that needs to be said in terms of craft, because that actually...
37:04
Emily Maguire: If someone has come to you with their work and wants feedback, I think it's actually really disrespectful to be like,"Oh, that's wonderful.
37:13
Emily Maguire: Aren't you clever?
37:14
Emily Maguire: No notes." Like, it's not respecting their intention, and it's not treating them like a writer.
37:20
Emily Maguire: And that first time I had Layne Davison as a mentor who gave me notes, and they were tough notes, it was the first time I really felt outside of my own head like I was a writer, and I was being spoken to like a writer, and I was being treated like someone who wanted to do the work, who wanted to make it better, and that is really important.
37:38
Emily Maguire: Mm.
37:38
Emily Maguire: So it's...
37:38
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
37:39
Emily Maguire: It's not about being like,"Oh, this is great." Um, it's about also not being like- chuck this out, start again, you're rubbish.
37:53
Emily Maguire: Because it's a, I mean, it's mean, but also it's just not true.
37:57
Emily Maguire: And again, to go back to this thing, that it's not done till it's done.
38:00
Emily Maguire: It's a work in progress until it's not.
38:02
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
38:03
Emily Maguire: And so anything that you are coming to as a, as a reader, as a mentor, as a critic, as a, you know, criticism partner, as a beta reader, I think the intention always has to be, um, this, this isn't finished yet How, how do we help it become itself?
38:20
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
38:21
Emily Maguire: And that's an exciting thing to, to do, to help make...
38:25
Emily Maguire: We- we're making something great together here and contributing to this.
38:28
Emily Maguire: So as, as the writer yourself trying to find those people, I think that conversation at some point is important.
38:35
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
38:35
Emily Maguire: So whether you're in a writer's group and you're have a kind of ethos out front, like we're gonna be real with each other, but we're all going in with the goal of this, this can be done.
38:43
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
38:44
Emily Maguire: Nothing is hopeless and terrible, like this, this can be done, and we're gonna find a way to do it.
38:49
Emily Maguire: Um, the other thing I, I often say is family and friends are usually not gonna be the right person to be your early readers or your critical readers.
39:00
Emily Maguire: Um, that's speaking very much from my own experience.
39:03
Emily Maguire: I have...
39:04
Emily Maguire: I mean, apart from you, who are my friend and my first reader, which I'll get to in a second why you are, but my family in particular, I'm lucky, incredibly supportive, but they are those readers who will be,"Oh, my God, this is wonderful.
39:19
Emily Maguire: You're a genius.
39:20
Emily Maguire: How are you real?" And that's-
39:23
Natasha Rai: Oh, loving it.
39:24
Natasha Rai: Yeah
39:24
Emily Maguire: beautiful.
39:24
Emily Maguire: Yes,
39:25
Natasha Rai: yes.
39:25
Emily Maguire: It doesn't help me make a manuscript better.
39:27
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
39:28
Emily Maguire: That's what you want once the book's out there, and you can't change anything, and other people might be doing reviews and stuff, that's when you need that person to say,"You're a genius.
39:37
Emily Maguire: This is perfect." When it's still in development, that's not what I need.
39:42
Emily Maguire: Yeah,
39:42
Natasha Rai: yeah.
39:43
Emily Maguire: So that's not family and friends.
39:44
Emily Maguire: Others would also have that experience, but also the thing is, unless your close family and friends are themselves writers who have a similar approach to writing and manuscript development or really good readers, and that's the other thing.
40:00
Emily Maguire: You don't necessarily need to find other writers to be your person to read.
40:06
Emily Maguire: You, Tash, are a writer, of course, and a wonderful one, but what makes you someone who I, um, ask to read my manuscripts is that you're a brilliant reader, and you're not responding to it as a writer, like,"This is what I would do, this is what I would do," although of course that's, you know, your writer self is in there.
40:26
Emily Maguire: But what I love is that you are able to read it as a book and talk about it with me as we talk about books in terms of what's working and what's not, and I know that you're widely read.
40:37
Emily Maguire: I know that how you think about reading and books, um, and that's really important to me to have as a reader.
40:42
Emily Maguire: And so that's what I...
40:44
Emily Maguire: Yeah, that's advice there that I would say is to have those conversations up front about what kind of feedback is helpful and not, what kind of approach you're taking to this.
40:52
Emily Maguire: But also, yeah, don't, don't overlook the readers in your life- Mm-hmm who aren't necessarily themselves writers.
40:58
Natasha Rai: Thank you.
40:59
Natasha Rai: Um, so your- Like the other, uh, not the other side of your career, but part of your career is being a writing mentor and teacher.
41:08
Natasha Rai: How did that...
41:09
Natasha Rai: How did you get into that?
41:10
Natasha Rai: Like, h- how did- Mm I don't know, how did you feel confident to start helping, supporting other writers?
41:17
Emily Maguire: Mm.
41:18
Emily Maguire: Um, I didn't.
41:20
Emily Maguire: Mm.
41:21
Emily Maguire: Um, I was asked to teach...
41:24
Emily Maguire: You know what the first, I think the first workshop I taught was part of a writing residency I did actually in Tasmania, and part of that was to, to do a one-day workshop.
41:32
Emily Maguire: And I, I remember being really, I mean, massive, massive imposter syndrome.
41:38
Emily Maguire: Like, who, who the hell am I?
41:40
Emily Maguire: I think one, only the first book had been published then.
41:42
Emily Maguire: Um, but it went, it went quite well, and I enjoyed it.
41:46
Emily Maguire: Um, and when I-
41:47
Natasha Rai: Well, can I ask you?
41:47
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
41:47
Natasha Rai: Sorry, I like to get specific.
41:48
Emily Maguire: Yeah, go.
41:49
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah,
41:49
Natasha Rai: yeah.
41:49
Natasha Rai: What, what did you enjoy about it?
41:51
Emily Maguire: Yeah, so what I enjoyed about it was once the people in that class, in that group, it was a fairly small group, started talking back.
42:00
Emily Maguire: Oh.
42:01
Emily Maguire: Not in an arguing way, but once it was a conversation, and not just me standing up there doing a lecture on what I knew Um, and, and what started to happen in that room and then is what I've sort of, I guess, have built on over the years since, and very much so doing the year of the novel, which is exactly what it sounds like, a year-long course on novel at Writing New South Wales, which I did for 12 years.
42:27
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
42:27
Emily Maguire: So that's really when it built.
42:29
Emily Maguire: But it did start there of that thing of like, oh, I don't have to be an expert who knows everything.
42:35
Emily Maguire: That's not what people need from me.
42:37
Emily Maguire: Because especially now, they can pick up any craft book and have someone telling them,"This is what, how you do this."
42:44
Natasha Rai: Mm.
42:44
Emily Maguire: They can, you know, go online, whether it's on forums like Reddit or, you know, Googling advice and now goddamn chat- AI GPT or whatever- Yes and be told- Mm this is how you should do this.
42:57
Emily Maguire: This is what you should do.
42:58
Emily Maguire: This is what you should do.
42:58
Emily Maguire: This is what you should do.
43:00
Emily Maguire: What I can bring, specifically me, is here are some things that I've noticed that work or don't- Mm and we can have a conversation about that and how that, um, seems to resonate or not with those people in that room, and we are all writers.
43:19
Emily Maguire: If they're in my writing class or workshop or come to me for mentorship, we are...
43:23
Emily Maguire: I'm, I'm not pretending we're both on the exact same level,'cause there's a responsibility to being that student, um, to being that teacher or that mentor that, um, that I definitely take really seriously, but we are all writers.
43:37
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
43:37
Emily Maguire: I'm not telling them something that I have this sacred knowledge, and I can choose to pass it down or not.
43:43
Emily Maguire: I'm still in it.
43:44
Emily Maguire: I'm still doing it.
43:45
Emily Maguire: I'm still struggling with these questions.
43:48
Emily Maguire: All I have that, that most of my students don't is experience, a lot of experience now.
43:55
Emily Maguire: Mm.
43:55
Emily Maguire: So if someone comes to me, like, if I'm doing a class on, um...
44:00
Emily Maguire: I'm trying to think what was the one we were just doing the other night, um, on deep point of view in a class that I was teaching the other night, and- I can see that some people in the room are starting to be like, you know, once you start getting into third person, and whether it's subjective, limited, omniscient, is this free indirect discourse?
44:20
Emily Maguire: Where does the author end and where does the narrator start?
44:23
Emily Maguire: All of this stuff, you, you can start to see some people in the room start going,"Oh, holy hell, I can't write." Mm.
44:30
Emily Maguire: "I don't know anything anymore." Yes.
44:30
Emily Maguire: "I thought I
44:32
Natasha Rai: knew how to write this." I, I, I literally had that thought just then.
44:33
Natasha Rai: I'm like,"Oh, shit, I don't know how to write.
44:35
Natasha Rai: I don't know what
44:35
any
44:35
Emily Maguire: of that
44:35
Natasha Rai: means."
44:37
Emily Maguire: Exactly.
44:38
Emily Maguire: And that's when I can pull back, like start saying,"Okay, how's everyone, like, going with what we're talking about here?
44:43
Emily Maguire: And, and here's some of those things." So flies...
44:45
Emily Maguire: I can say,"Okay, so I literally did not think about any of this until I was in the editorial for my third novel." So you don't need to know all this and know the terms for things to write a novel.
44:56
Emily Maguire: Um, many, many don't.
44:58
Emily Maguire: And if you're, if you're already a big reader, which is something I always encourage, of course, you actually do already know this.
45:05
Emily Maguire: You just don't necessarily know what a literary critic would call it or what someone writing, you know, in academia- Mm would- Mm-hmm define this as.
45:14
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
45:14
Emily Maguire: And it doesn't matter, because your readers don't care either, unless they are literary critics or academics writing something.
45:20
Emily Maguire: So the only reason to talk about craft on this level is just so we can all in the room have shared terms to say,"Oh, what's this writer doing here?" When you're writing, to me the ideal is to just do it so that your reader never stops to think,"Is this free indirect discourse?
45:39
Emily Maguire: What?" Uh, like, just in the world, right?
45:41
Emily Maguire: Yes,
45:41
Natasha Rai: yes.
45:41
Emily Maguire: Exactly.
45:42
Emily Maguire: And so if you are feeling, uh, as, as a student of writing or as a someone who is writing, are feeling confused about the labeling and all that, like, just, just let it go.
45:50
Emily Maguire: Forget it.
45:50
Emily Maguire: It actually doesn't matter unless it's helping you.
45:53
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
45:54
Emily Maguire: And, and so that for me is, uh, again, I've gone on and on away from the question, but th- this is the idea that in, for me, in a writing classroom, in a mentorship thing, it's like I can bring stuff and say,"Well, okay, I have since learnt that what is happening here technically is this."
46:07
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
46:08
Emily Maguire: But if that is not helpful to someone in their writing, don't worry about it.
46:13
Emily Maguire: Like, find another way in to be, why is this piece of writing working so well and this one isn't?
46:18
Emily Maguire: Yes, yes.
46:18
Emily Maguire: Or what can I do with mine?
46:20
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
46:20
Emily Maguire: Um, and that goes for, I don't know, like structure.
46:23
Emily Maguire: Things people say you have to do a three-act structure, or you have to do this particular method, or you have to do this particular method.
46:28
Emily Maguire: It's like, is that helping you?
46:30
Emily Maguire: Is that helping you write what you think of as a better book?
46:35
Emily Maguire: If so, brilliant.
46:37
Emily Maguire: If not, let it go- Mm because there's a lot of books that have been written in this world, and are still being written now, and always have, and every single one of them has been done differently, and some of those people have studied craft and some haven't.
46:51
Emily Maguire: And I don't think necessarily any reader cares if what they're reading is involving and great.
46:58
Emily Maguire: So when I teach or when I'm working with someone on their novel, the thing is always is what we're talking about here and doing here, is this helping this writer-
47:08
Natasha Rai: Mm
47:09
Emily Maguire: make the best book that they can in their own view, or is it just showing off that I have I'm a high school dropout who has since learnt lots of fancy literary terms, and I can stand up on high and say them.
47:22
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
47:22
Emily Maguire: Because that, that's not it.
47:24
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
47:24
Emily Maguire: That, that's not, that's not the job.
47:25
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah.
47:25
Emily Maguire: That's not what we're doing there.
47:28
Natasha Rai: So I'm so curious, um, over the years teaching and taking on individual students as well as class and groups, um, what have you noticed in terms of trends or how people are writing or the quality of work that's, that you're seeing?
47:47
Natasha Rai: Uh, because, you know, the, the publishing industry is always apparently on its knees about to collapse at any moment.
47:53
Natasha Rai: Um, and there, there seems to be a shift for writers who are submitting as well from, you know, yes, the work's important, but you also have to have X, Y, Z.
48:02
Natasha Rai: Yeah, blah, blah, blah.
48:04
Natasha Rai: I'm just wondering if any of that is reflected in the work that you see or, I don't know, just, I'm just Yeah.
48:08
Natasha Rai: What, what are you noticing over, over time?
48:12
Emily Maguire: Honestly, over time, I'm not seeing a difference in the work in that way.
48:16
Natasha Rai: Wow.
48:16
Emily Maguire: Um, what I mean by that is that the, the spectrum of well-developed person really already knows what they're doing and maybe just needs a bit of guidance from absolute beginner, has never really thought about how they put words together.
48:32
Emily Maguire: I always have students across that whole spectrum, and I still do, and that still exists, and I love that, um, actually.
48:40
Emily Maguire: But what has shifted is, yes, this idea of identity as a writer on the market or in the market.
48:50
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
48:51
Emily Maguire: I think that a lot more people now, um, are really aware of, yeah, uh, do I need a platform?
49:03
Emily Maguire: Do I need a social media presence?
49:05
Emily Maguire: How am I pitching myself in terms of, you know, um, how I'll be marketed?
49:11
Emily Maguire: That, that it has become a lot more common for writers to already have an idea of all that stuff before they've actually written much at all.
49:19
Emily Maguire: And that's a I get it.
49:22
Emily Maguire: I really, I really do get it because so much writing advice, particularly, you know, online is about that.
49:28
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
49:28
Emily Maguire: Do you have your pitch?
49:30
Emily Maguire: Where do you fit?
49:30
Emily Maguire: What are your comp titles?
49:32
Emily Maguire: And that's all important, I know it is, like, if you wanna be, you know, published and in the industry and, and have any kind of career, let alone a long one.
49:45
Emily Maguire: But you've gotta, you've gotta write the book first.
49:45
Emily Maguire: You've gotta have the book, and possibly more than one, and definitely many drafts of it.
49:51
Emily Maguire: And so I think it's not about the quality of writing I'm seeing, it's about how early in the process a lot of writers are thinking about stuff that...
50:00
Emily Maguire: I mean, look, I'm not a publisher.
50:01
Emily Maguire: I'm not an agent.
50:02
Emily Maguire: I'm not in the industry in that way, and so, you know, my advice is what it is as a writer.
50:07
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm.
50:08
Emily Maguire: Sure.
50:08
Emily Maguire: Is that most, most writers would, like early career writers, um, or emerging writers, would really be better off spending a lot more time on the manuscripts themselves before they're worrying about that stuff or thinking about that stuff.
50:28
Emily Maguire: Um, yes, there comes a point when you need to, but I think, I think that point is later than many writers, um, think it is.
50:37
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
50:38
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
50:39
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
50:39
Natasha Rai: I remember you saying that,'cause I did a year of the novel with you in 2017.
50:45
Natasha Rai: Um, so I remember you saying that, like,"Just focus on the manuscript, on the work for now," and all of that.
50:52
Natasha Rai: And I,'cause I...
50:52
Natasha Rai: And that was so helpful,'cause I remember at the time feeling a bit, um...
50:56
Natasha Rai: What's the right word?
50:57
Natasha Rai: Crazed?
50:57
Natasha Rai: No, not crazed.
50:58
Natasha Rai: Um, just quite worried, like, um, I don't know what my identity is.
51:02
Natasha Rai: I don't know- Mm how my pitch will go.
51:03
Natasha Rai: I, yeah, so that was really helpful.
51:06
Natasha Rai: Mm.
51:06
Natasha Rai: Um, so I've got a couple more questions.
51:08
Natasha Rai: Um, what have you figured out in terms of how to keep going career-wise, craft-wise, as an Austra- Australian author living in Australia?
51:20
Emily Maguire: Again, the two are two quite separate things.
51:24
Natasha Rai: Yes, I know.
51:24
Natasha Rai: I've coupled them together.
51:24
Natasha Rai: Craft...
51:27
Emily Maguire: Well, I mean, we have to eventually.
51:28
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
51:29
Emily Maguire: That's the thing, right?
51:29
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah.
51:29
Emily Maguire: Like, we, we do have to.
51:30
Emily Maguire: But, but craft-wise for me, it's definitely to just stay curious and excited and interested.
51:37
Emily Maguire: Mm.
51:38
Emily Maguire: To...
51:38
Emily Maguire: Like, I don't consciously think, like, I need to do something completely different with the next book or anything like that.
51:44
Emily Maguire: But it is like I need to be really interested and engaged in what I'm doing, and to feel like I am learning all the time and, and pushing myself.
51:52
Emily Maguire: So for me, that's it.
51:54
Emily Maguire: That's the only thing to longevity, to keep being really interested and not feeling like I'm just phoning it in.
52:00
Emily Maguire: Um, career-wise, look- Since I've first been published all those years ago, people have been saying,"The novel is dead.
52:10
Emily Maguire: Fiction is dead.
52:11
Emily Maguire: The industry is dead." And sometimes it's been more dead than others.
52:16
Emily Maguire: Like, it really does come and go.
52:18
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
52:18
Emily Maguire: And, and yeah, look, I think it does feel like now we are in a time of...
52:23
Emily Maguire: Th- this does feel different this time, mostly because of AI stuff, um, and also more broadly the, the sense of, um, devaluing of art and literature and things like that.
52:36
Emily Maguire: So, yeah, I, I...
52:38
Emily Maguire: career-wise I can feel quite dark about the, that stuff.
52:44
Emily Maguire: On the other hand, there are lots of readers out there still, and whenever I go to, like, a book festival or a readers event...
52:51
Emily Maguire: And, and yes, I guess they're just little pockets in the bubble I'm in, but it's enough.
52:56
Emily Maguire: It's enough to have hope to keep going, that I'm not just doing this for myself'cause I love it, that there's people there, um, who also really love and care about books and literature and, and Australian books and literature.
53:08
Emily Maguire: And then I remind myself I am one, because again, I'm a reader before I'm a writer.
53:11
Emily Maguire: And when I think...
53:12
Emily Maguire: And you know, the conversations we have about this- Mm.
53:14
Emily Maguire: Mm what books still mean to us- Yes other people's books, books we're reading as readers.
53:18
Natasha Rai: Exactly.
53:19
Emily Maguire: We're not the only ones who feel like that.
53:21
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
53:21
Emily Maguire: There's lots, and so that's hopeful.
53:23
Emily Maguire: And then the really big pragmatic thing to get very, very, um, nuts and bolts about sustaining a career as an author in Australia, or anywhere probably, is to think about really how, how you are going to...
53:42
Emily Maguire: well, what, what's an acceptable level of income for you to live at?
53:47
Emily Maguire: And, and that is really- Mm-hmm.
53:49
Emily Maguire: And we've talked about this yeah, really basic stuff to think about.
53:51
Emily Maguire: But, but the question of,"How can I make more money as a writer?" That's a reasonable one, and there are various side hustles and things that people do.
53:59
Emily Maguire: There's, there's always the keeping the day job, which most Australian writers do.
54:03
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
54:04
Emily Maguire: Um, or at least, you know, part of the time to have another job as well.
54:08
Emily Maguire: But the, the side that I don't hear people talking about,'cause it does feel a bit icky, is actually, what do I need to live?
54:14
Emily Maguire: And this is a different answer for everyone.
54:16
Emily Maguire: It's not a right or wrong thing.
54:17
Emily Maguire: Like, I, I live quite frugally, and for someone my age and, and all of that, I'm, you know, I, I don't have the stuff or the lifestyle that maybe I would if I had a different kind of career.
54:30
Emily Maguire: But it means I can spend more of my time writing and less doing those side hustles and that other work.
54:36
Emily Maguire: I know...
54:36
Emily Maguire: I mean, I don't have kids.
54:39
Emily Maguire: If you have kids, of course that's other people's needs you have to take into account.
54:42
Emily Maguire: And, and people have...
54:43
Emily Maguire: yeah, you've gotta work this out for yourself.
54:45
Emily Maguire: But I do think along with the question of,"How do I make more money as a writer?" is this question of, what will make me happier?
54:52
Emily Maguire: Is it actually making more money, or is it figuring out how to live on this amount of money so that I can spend more of my time writing?
55:01
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
55:02
Natasha Rai: Sorry, I'm just quiet because I'm really contemplating that.
55:04
Natasha Rai: I know, you know.
55:04
Natasha Rai: I
55:05
Emily Maguire: know, you
55:05
Natasha Rai: know.
55:05
Natasha Rai: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
55:07
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
55:08
Natasha Rai: That i- and that is excellent advice.
55:10
Natasha Rai: Um Sorry, I'm, I'm doing my staring off in the distance again.
55:15
Natasha Rai: Not that anyone can see me do that, but anyway.
55:17
Natasha Rai: Um, yeah, and I really like that that's, that is how you have to work out, figure it out, just like you would in any other job.
55:25
Natasha Rai: Mm.
55:25
Natasha Rai: Like when you're working your way through a career, you're making all these decisions all the time, like,"Where can I live based on my money that I earn?
55:33
Natasha Rai: What can I do based on that?
55:34
Natasha Rai: What can I afford?" So I don't see why you wouldn't use the same principles.
55:39
Natasha Rai: I think as well, I don't know, maybe I'm making this up, but it feels like sometimes people go into the industry imagining that theirs will be the next Weatherston Book Club pick or something magical and extraordinary will happen, and then you won't have to worry about-
55:54
Emily Maguire: Mm
55:54
Natasha Rai: the everyday.
55:55
Natasha Rai: And yeah.
55:57
Emily Maguire: And you know what?
55:57
Emily Maguire: It might, because that does happen.
55:57
Emily Maguire: It might, exactly.
55:58
Natasha Rai: Exactly.
55:59
Emily Maguire: Because those books and those writers exist- Mm and, and fantastic, and we love to see it.
56:05
Emily Maguire: But, um, that, that's not a plan.
56:08
Natasha Rai: Exactly.
56:09
Natasha Rai: Yeah
56:09
Emily Maguire: Cause there's so much out of your control.
56:11
Emily Maguire: It's, it's a great thing to happen- Mm but it's not a...
56:12
Emily Maguire: Yeah, it can't be a plan.
56:13
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
56:14
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
56:14
Natasha Rai: Um, so you've already s- given me so many gems, um, but I'm curious about whether you do have a top tip for emerging writers.
56:25
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
56:25
Emily Maguire: It's, it's broken into two bits- Okay, excellent but it's really interrelated advice.
56:29
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah.
56:29
Emily Maguire: So the first bit is the best way to write something is to write something, which is just stop thinking about it, making plans.
56:41
Emily Maguire: I mean, definitely listen to The Book Deal Podcast and- Thank you all your writing advice, and go to writing festivals and classes and all of that.
56:48
Emily Maguire: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
56:48
Emily Maguire: But that's not writing.
56:50
Natasha Rai: Yes.
56:50
Emily Maguire: You need to actually write- Mm and writing has its own, um, e- momentum.
56:56
Emily Maguire: And all the theory in the world, all the great ideas in the world, you need to be getting words on the page.
57:01
Emily Maguire: That's the best way to write something, is to write something.
57:03
Emily Maguire: And then the second bit of that, though, is that revision is magic.
57:09
Emily Maguire: It's where the magic usually happens.
57:11
Emily Maguire: So you've written something, you've got it there.
57:13
Emily Maguire: The revision bit, I, I find a full revision process, so not just fiddling around the edges editing, not line editing.
57:20
Emily Maguire: Revision is and can be profoundly creative, and is when that deep understanding of the work and the ability to make it something special happens.
57:29
Emily Maguire: So get it down, and then get to work revising it.
57:32
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
57:33
Natasha Rai: Excellent advice.
57:34
Natasha Rai: And I think- Yes
57:34
Emily Maguire: eternal truth.
57:36
Natasha Rai: Exactly.
57:37
Natasha Rai: I love it because I totally agree.
57:38
Natasha Rai: My favorite part is revision, and that rewrite, that structural thinking, oh, it's my favorite part.
57:44
Natasha Rai: Like, I get so excited by that part, even when it's hard, and even when I'm like,"I hate this."
57:49
Emily Maguire: Yeah, yeah.
57:50
Emily Maguire: 'Cause you can, you can see...
57:51
Emily Maguire: You can start to see the possibility of it.
57:53
Emily Maguire: You can start to really see what this could be.
57:55
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
57:56
Emily Maguire: Yeah.
57:56
Emily Maguire: Which when you've got a blank page, you're still putting it together, you're still kind of putting the scaffolding up around it.
58:02
Emily Maguire: It, it looks like what it is, which is messy words on a page that aren't as good as you want them to be Sounds but once you get into that revision, it, it starts to be something.
58:10
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
58:12
Natasha Rai: Oh my God, I'm so inspired.
58:14
Natasha Rai: Um, thank you so much, Em, for coming on The Book Deal, and, um- Thank you I'll let you get back to your trenches.
58:25
Speaker 5: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
58:29
Speaker 5: If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast