Latest / Lab to Lives / Prevention Pays: How Technology Is Revolutionizing Mental Health with Eva Papadopoulou

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Prevention Pays: How Technology Is Revolutionizing Mental Health with Eva Papadopoulou · Lab to Lives

• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Transformation in Trials.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Ivana Rosendahl.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: In this podcast, we explore how clinical trials are currently transforming so we can identify trends that can be further accelerated.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: We want to ensure that no patient has to wait for treatment and we get drugs to them as quickly as possible.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Transformation in Trials.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Today we're going to focus on the topic of preventive healthcare, and in the studio with me I have Eva Papadopoulou.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: And Eva, could you tell us a little bit more about what you're currently up?
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: to yes, ivana.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: So my name is Eva Papadopoulou and I'm a mental health professional, but I also am an expert in digital and AI enabled healthcare solutions.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: So I have been in this technology area for about 10 years.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: I started with digital and obviously moving to AI and I'm very passionate about its potential and, especially around the area of prevention, very passionate about its potential and especially around the area of prevention.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is what really got me when we first met is your passion about prevention.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I really love that and also like mental health care.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: How can we make sure that we reduce the spending instead of increasing it?
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: So excited about this topic.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: But anyway, just to set the stage for some of our listeners, can you tell us more about?
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: How is it today?
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: What is the distribution of intervention treatment versus preventative care, especially when it comes to mental health care?
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: yes, so obviously different things happen in different countries.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: But I think also the numbers I'll give you are based in UK but I think it's quite similar across the Western countries.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: So basically healthcare now is reactive and intervention-based care.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: So basically people need to be quite unwell to receive treatment.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: That's not only in mental health, that's generally applied.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Prevention remains underfunded and underutilized.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: The latest I've seen might be different now, but it's 10%.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: Less than 10% of the budget is estimated.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: That is useful prevention but also evidence so that interventions lead to better outcomes.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: So if you use preventative healthcare, people will be there, will be better outcomes and maybe it will be more cost-effective in the future.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of potential there.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 10%, that is not a lot, yeah, eva.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: So if we just really try to define what preventative healthcare is, if you imagine, like a 17-year-old high school student who has not yet entered the labor force, how would you explain what is preventative health care?
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: So I think an area of health care that they got it right on it, and that would be the example I would give, is dental care.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: So, basically, we brush our teeth two, three times a day to prevent cavities.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: We also go hygienist twice a year just to explore, just to do a super deep clean and explore if there is anything else, and every two, three years we have an x-ray to make sure that there is no anything hidden.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: Every two or three years we have an x-ray to make sure that there is not anything hidden.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: Okay, so that is, that would be the example we'll give it.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: If I'm going to give a definition, it's things that you do regularly to stay healthy and avoid problems in the future.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: So, when it comes to mental health, I think it starts with education.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: It's techniques to manage stress, is talking and learning to talk and learning to listen as well, is able to recognize your baseline, but also feelings and affects that are outside your baseline, and having a support system.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: So the general thinking is that we take care of our mind and our body before it breaks, not after it breaks.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: So that's the gist of it.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: That's a great explanation.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I love the example of dental health care.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: That is an area where that's what we're doing.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: That is the primary.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: Exactly, and we get it right.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: And I haven't researched this, this, but I don't think a hundred years ago we had it right.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: There was a shift in the culture, yeah, and we changed.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: So why can't we generalize the shift?
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: I, my grandfather, got all of his teeth pulled out when he was 14 and got dentures, because there was like then you avoid all this pain.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, mymother.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my grandmother's the same.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: So they remove the teeth to put dentures, a sterile fix, in it.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: That's the opposite of prevention.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's a very good example.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Dental health care seems to be the only area that really has got it right now.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Very interesting to think about which other areas could be well suited for this kind of shift so there's um two big areas that I think you can apply immediately something.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: one is youth mental health, so basically most mental health conditions before the age of 25.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: So you have a massive window of opportunity for edit, detection and prevention or early management.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: So that's one area.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: Another area that affects everyone is the workplace mental health.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: So basically, if you take proactive measures, you can reduce burnout and absentees and increase productivity, increase profits and so on.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: Other areas that food prevention takes place is substance use, common, as we say, common mental health issues of anxiety and depression, where upstream investment pays off and there will be benefits in the long run.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: So if we start with these areas, I think there will be so much benefit.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Those are some good areas.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Wow, before age 25, you can discover so many mental illnesses.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm, I didn't know this.
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean we cannot look into medical conditions that appear later in life and say, work with your young, work at work, and just tackle some basic, the most common mental health conditions, then it's a good start.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also recently I have learned that work PTSD is an actual phenomenon, that being in the workplace can actually damage our mental health or trigger really strong reactions.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: So I have also recently discovered that this is an area where much has to be done.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: I might be wrong about it, but I've read it recently.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: It is like estimated 51 billion dollars are lost in US just because of mental health issues in the workforce.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: So I think that's a business case to begin with, that is a good business case.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: There might also be a business case for looking at the work culture 100% yeah, but also dealing with the people who already have experienced the negative effects yeah, wow.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the work culture kind of toxic environment, toxic leadership.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: That's a whole different conversation, but it does affect people and it can create massive stress and eventually burnout or depression.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and eventually burnout or depression.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the things you and I discussed first time was that incentive models for people developing new drugs are lacking for thinking about prevention also From a bioscientist side, we look more at how can we treat.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: We do not necessarily look at how can we prevent.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: How could we create some incentives so that we from the life scientist side, started looking at prevention as a sort of treatment.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: So I think it's shifting how we measure success in healthcare.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: I think that's the first thing.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: Value-based care models, where outcomes matter more than the volume of services delivered, is important.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: And then we need to create financial frameworks that reward longer savings and population health improvement.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: There was one example I don't know the outcomes and the metrics, but there was one insurance, private insurance company that were rewarding the more you exercise, they're rewarding you by reducing the fee or something the annual fee, something like that.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: This is a good way to understand how you get rewarded as an individual.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Obviously, insurers, employers, government need to work on this and create new systems.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: Ai can help now because obviously they can track early indicators, risk factors and determine return on investments and create models that can create incentives.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: But, as I said, there's some kind of I've seen it.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: As I said, I don't remember which insurance was, but it's like the more you exist, as they give you a tracker, some like iWatch or something.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: It's like the more you exercise, the more you take care of yourself, the less you're going to pay your insurance.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Brilliant, yeah, so it got you that.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: It's an incentive, yeah.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: No, that makes a lot of sense.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: And this leads me to the next topic I want to discuss, and that is you mentioned technology as a means to track health.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: How can technology help us when we talk about mental health?
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: That's a good question.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: So, health tech obviously there's a big industry in health tech and mental health.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: One of the basic elements of prevention is prevention thrives on accessibility and scale scalability.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: So basically and these are two things that digital is doing really well you have the apps, you have the wearables, you have the online platforms, you have AI chatbots everything that people can access in large scales immediately All these things can enable to personalize support, to create nudges.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: So, to give you an example, let's say I'm on my way to work, I'm driving, there is massive traffic, I start getting quite anxious, I'm going to be late.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: My wearable can actually track that and tell me do your breathing exercise or listen to relaxing music or something.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: So there are ways to send you nudges because all these devices can track initial signs, early warnings.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: So they are discrete.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: They could be 24-7.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: These are the things that could potentially support people with mental health and prevention.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: But that makes sense.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: And where does the AI part come into it?
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: The AI part comes because the AI can personalize support and also it can give exactly what you want.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: If you have a generic platform, you know the classic, the classic, the digital interventions it gives you a generic support.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: Ai can make a tailor-made support system or a nudge or detect early warnings based on your data.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: So personalization is very important because obviously more tailor-made to the individual.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: And then AI comes in and does better work than the generic platforms.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense when it comes to bridging this treatment and prevention gap, if we consider that health tech could potentially be one of the ways that we create that bridge.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Having worked in several life science companies where we have attempted to create some sort of health tech to go with the drugs that we are providing, being only moderately successful with the health tech part, successful with the drug part, and based on what you have experienced, how does health tech actually make an impact?
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: How do we make it better?
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: How to make it better.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: I think the success depends on co-designing with the end users.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: So I think when health tech can go wrong, it's just have a fantastic vision and idea and not consult the end users.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: So I think co-designing is essential.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: I think integration is essential.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: So, basically, you cannot build health tech independently of other systems and, in general, have the people at heart.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: So, basically, make sure that the clinical pathway is smooth for the end users, basically.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: So I have seen amazing ideas, but without testing with end users and the ideas in principle are fantastic, but it doesn't work because you need to have people giving you feedback as to how it works in practice.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: And also have people at heart, just every little detail.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: Keep developing, not just do it, just keep making it better all the time.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: That resonates with any technology development.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Really, you need to focus on your universe.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Having access to more information about your health and mental health also puts a different role on us as citizens and people.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Suddenly, we know more about what's happening in our bodies From your perspective.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: How can we make sure that people are also able to interpret the result that they get from the technology that they're?
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: surrounded by.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: That's a really good point, because technology could be quite stressful.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: It's not harmful and it's also what technology are we using?
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: So I was like last time we talked I told you like people are learning about mental health through TikTok now, so not helpful.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: No, don't do that.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: I think that it's a really good question that lies with education.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: We need to educate young people, we need to educate ourselves to understand what is what and, as I was saying earlier, it is important to start having understanding of the emotional language, start understanding your personal baseline, start how to talk about distressful issues and also learn how to listen.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and technology.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Then technology could make sense in a way, because if I start seeing my blood pressure goes up and I know nothing about it and Google it and then says, oh my God, you're going to have a stroke, I'm going to panic Like I don't understand it.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: I really don't understand.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: I need to have some sort of education and say, okay, I just went up a hundred floors, yes, of course it goes up.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Or I just had a really distressive call, let me do some breathing.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: So there needs to be some sort of basic education and that's why I always say health first aid and generic first aid, that these are two things we should all know from school and other knowledge throughout our lives.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: This is not something privileged for few people.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: Everybody should know about it so you can understand and interpret all the data that is given by the apps.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: For a while I was wearing a continuous glucose monitor just to learn more about my blood sugar and I found that I needed to understand how the digestive system works, how cells consume energy, To really understand what exactly is my.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: What are these numbers telling me Exactly?
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: And even though I've had biology in school and stuff, I felt like I needed.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I watched a whole bunch of YouTube.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: If this works.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: If you go back to social media, yes, yes, sometimes a good resource and you have to understand it.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it does somewhat get me to think that, if health technology is closing, also as a society, yeah, to make sure that people know what to react to and what is within the norm, yeah, and what is are actually signals that they need to act on a hundred percent.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: That's what I said in this story from school and equally what you said with the glucose, I think.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: Think equally basic principles of healthy eating and also what it really does to the body should start at school as well.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: So this is the whole kind of prevention understanding ethos.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: It's like we need to know these things not from YouTube later in life, but from school.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, what about this whole?
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: If we imagine a world, if prevention was to take a larger stage, if we imagine that we do learn about it in school, we do monitor ourselves more, what would this do to our society.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: I think it's a culture shift.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: So let's go back to the dental care.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, I really don't think your grandparents and my grandparents were so keen in actually taking care of themselves in the dental or magic Sometimes.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: At some point there was a culture shift.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know why, I don't know what happened, I haven't looked into it, but there was a major cultural shift where we all understood that we need to brush our teeth three times a day.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: How did that happen?
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: When did that happen?
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: So, in a similar way, there needs to be a cultural shift when we understand that we need to take care of ourselves.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: What the mental health markers, what is I'm okay feel to each person and when we not feeling okay, and what do we do about it?
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: What is the best kind of way to approach each of the symptoms?
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: I think it will create a calmer society and kind of people, and I think the most important thing is that not to, as I said earlier, not to seek help when you are really unwell, because it takes twice the effort, the time to get back on track.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: So, if you start, make sure you take care of yourself and if you're not feeling really well, know what to do immediately and get some sort of support immediately in order not to go down the line of just being quite unwell.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: I think that would be better and, as I said, especially with youth and especially in the workplace.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: So people like less burnout, less absence, more productivity and just feel better about work and life.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: Nothing wrong with that.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: Huge advantages there.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: I don't see the negative in this.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: How can this be bad?
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Eva, how did you get into the space in the first place?
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: How did you get into mental health?
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: How did you get into the digital and now AI fields?
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: So, basically, I'm very creative.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: I study psychology, I love innovation.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Like anything new, I will be the first to adapt or I'm going to go for it, and I love to.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: It's very important for me to make a positive impact as a psychologist, as a therapist.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: Obviously, I do it on individual levels and I wanted to create a shift from reactive to proactive.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: So instead of and again seeing people because obviously in my private practice I've seen people who are really unwell.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: So it's like how can we help people to get the tools and be empowered to manage their own well-being?
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: So, in terms of my career, as I said, I started in psychotherapy psychology space, moved on management and transformation, change management, and then I entered the digital world when I started being a transformation consultant and doing implementations and B-scale implementation of new technologies and yeah, and that's the story.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Basically it's all about context, yeah, and also something about the scale where you can help the individual.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: But there are some structural things also where you can help more people by changing some of the structure.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, exactly, and I love to be part of this conversation.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: I really like to be with other people with the same mind, thinking things through, and I think health tech is a fantastic preventative tool.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: It's preventative, early intervention after cure tool.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: It releases so much capacity and it's also kind of it's good to to support people before they're really unwell yeah, and I think that we are in a shift where, like, something is changing from whose responsibility health is.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: For years, it was the doctors.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: It is changing more to be the individuals and the tools are changing, and I think the trend towards more preventative health care is a part of this bigger restructuring of how we view health.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, to give you an example here in the UK.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, to give you an example here in the UK.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: So in order to get any kind of exploration test, like blood test for example, you need to have symptoms, otherwise you're not going to do it.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: I do that actually.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: I go, when I go every year, but I go sometimes every two years and I do a full MOT.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's quite, it's cheaper than UK, but I get full blood tests, full ultrasound, all the basic prevention tests.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: So I go to Greece, I do that.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: There is always a little something that obviously it doesn't show.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: But if I leave it and not do anything about it, eventually it will be a big something.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Then I will need a little treatment.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: But now that I get a little bit of cholesterol, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of something, then I can do something about it.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: It will affect other things.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a little bit of something, then I can do something about it.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: It will affect other things.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, that's a good point.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: It's also cool that it's possible in Greece getting like a full array.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: There's also a difference between like in the US they do this yearly checkup.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Of course you have to be insured to get that.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: You have to.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: But in Scandinavia that's another thing you also have to be unwell to get treatment.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: That's another thing.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: You also have to be unwell to get treatment and the system is wary of people who are trying to understand health.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: If there's nothing wrong.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: It doesn't exist here, like it really is not in UK.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: We don't have it.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: You get like when you I think when you are above 45, you can have a blood test that measures three basic things Cholesterol and liver function, three and I go to Greece and I get 50 different things like vitamins, deficiency, everything.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is a big difference, but it's a cultural kind of the way the culture thinks about things and that's why I think, because it's a cultural shift, it can change.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm now more hopeful with the dental example about things, and that's why I think, because it's a cultural shift, it can change yeah.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: And I'm now more hopeful with the dental example.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: That did change at some point.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: Good example.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Eva, as we start rounding off, I always ask my guests the same question in the end, and that is if I gave you the transformation trials magic wand that can change one thing in the life, and that is, if I gave you the transformation trials magic wand that can change one thing in the life sciences industry, what would you wish to change?
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: I would change the short-term thinking that dominates the healthcare funding and policy and I would shift it to long-term thinking.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, that is an amazing wish, Long-term thinking man.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: That'll be an interesting one to unpack and see how we can get closer to that.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: So basically, invest in the future instead of firefighting in the present.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I agree, eva.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: If some of my listeners want to talk more with you about any of the topics that we have discussed, where can they find you?
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Find me on LinkedIn.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: My name is Eva and my surname is Papadopoulou.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: And, yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn and I'm happy to have a conversation.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: That is awesome, eva.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me today.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you, that was a great conversation.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Transformation in Trials.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: If you have a suggestion for a guest for our show, reach out to Sam Parnell or.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Ivana Rosendahl on LinkedIn.
• 26:54
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• 27:00
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