Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / George Barna: How To Think Like Jesus

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George Barna: How To Think Like Jesus · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:00
  The 2027 Worldview Matters Conference will take place April 30th and May 1st at the Tundra Lodge Resort, Water Park and Conference Center in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
• 0:10
  Speakers include Andy Woods, Brandon Holthouse, Nathan Jones, Matthew Mayer.
• 0:19
  Hadia Miramati Falco, Pete Garcia, Brian Thomas, Steve Smotherman, J.B. Hickson, Mark Henry, Brianna Clausen, Alex Newman, Mark and Amber Archer.
• 0:36
  To register, go to davidfiorazzo.com or worldviewmattersconference.com.
• 0:46
  Welcome to Worldview Matters.
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  Discussing controversial issues.
• 0:51
  Discerning current events.
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  Defending biblical Christianity.
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  No topic.
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  Off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Fiorazzo.
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  Hello, friends, family, and Christ.
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  Today's guest, Dr. George Barna, has a brand new book out, How to Think Like Jesus.
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  And he asks and answers this question in the book.
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  Why do so many self-identified Christians think and live in a way indistinguishable from the culture around them?
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  Meaning we're blending in.
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  We know that Romans 12, 2 says, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
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  James 4, 4 says, Do you not know that being a friend with the world is hostility toward God?
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  So a brand new book is out, How to Think Like Jesus, just came out a few days ago, Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview.
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  George Barna, thank you so much for your time.
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  Good to see you again, sir.
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  David, it's always great to be with you.
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  Thanks for having me.
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  Yes, thank you for all the work you've done.
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  And I know we've had a lot of different conversations on the declining biblical worldview, and I don't know how you keep doing it because it's not like you're announcing good news every time you come out with new research.
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  In fact, what's the most recent one?
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  The most recent one, I know this is getting away from your book just slightly, but most adults' beliefs about humanity and the supernatural stray from biblical teaching.
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  Well, we're not surprised when you say—
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  Only 4% of Americans think like Jesus.
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  But your book is not how to talk like him, but how to think like Jesus.
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  Start right there, sir, because we've talked about the biblical worldview quite a bit on this podcast.
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  Yeah, for sure.
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  I mean, the reason that we're doing that is because over the course of the years, with all the research I've done, among the things I've learned is that you do what you believe.
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  So beliefs really do matter.
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  And if a disciple is somebody who imitates the master, that means that you have to behave like them.
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  We have to be able to observe that you're imitating them.
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  But if you do what you believe, that means in order to behave like somebody, you've got to think like them first because it's your beliefs that drives that behavior.
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  Yeah.
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  And so the idea here is we want to help people to begin to think like Jesus so that they can live like Jesus.
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  And by living like Jesus, then you can become his disciple.
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  And that's really the end game for everybody on the face of the earth, not just for people who go to church, people who go to seminary, people who are pastors.
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  Everybody, according to the Great Commission, is called to be a disciple of Jesus.
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  Yeah.
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  And so this book, How to Think Like Jesus, is based on research that identified seven particular beliefs, we call them the cornerstones of a biblical worldview, that serve as a solid foundation on which to build
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  a biblical worldview.
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  The book doesn't tell you how to develop the entire biblical worldview, but it gives you that strong foundation.
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  Because what we discovered is that very few people in America have that foundation in place.
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  And they're trying to build on top of that with a variety of things.
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  And it's just not working.
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  So I'm glad you talked about foundation building on the biblical worldview because you list seven cornerstones.
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  And as we know, let's see, that's the Ephesians verse I was thinking of.
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  Ephesians 2.20, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.
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  Another translation says the chief cornerstone.
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  cornerstone.
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  So we're building, as you say, on Jesus.
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  And to build on Jesus, we've got to know how to think like him.
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  Aside from the Gospels and the New Testament, how else can we develop this and understand how to build a biblical worldview?
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  Because I think a lot of people got away from that, which is why we don't think like Jesus.
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  Yeah, it's interesting, David.
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  One night, I think it was around 2 a.m., sitting in my office playing with data, which is my form of fun.
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  And I discovered that there are seven particular beliefs that when somebody holds all seven of those, and it's not just the beliefs, but you're following through on those beliefs with behaviors that comport to those beliefs.
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  you then have about an 83% probability of developing a full biblical worldview.
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  But if you reject even one of those seven foundations, one of those seven core beliefs, then your probability of being able to go on and build a complete biblical worldview drops from 83% down to 2%.
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  I've been doing social science research for decades, and I rarely find a correlation that's that strong.
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  And so I paid attention to that, and I thought, you know, at that point, I was just looking at, you know, variable 67, variable 92, variable 114.
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  I went back to say, okay, what are these things?
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  And what I discovered is, well, essentially it's Sunday School 101.
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  People are going to laugh at me when I tell them this.
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  But the other side of that coin is how sad it is that very, very few people in America own these seven very fundamental Christian beliefs.
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  So that's what the seven cornerstones represent.
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  And I guess it kind of makes sense that you'd want to take the basics and build on the basics.
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  You're not going to start with the most sophisticated, intricate elements of theology.
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  You're going to start with the things that really are the bedrock of what Christianity is all about.
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  Yeah.
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  The basics, the essentials.
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  Now, just clarify to make sure I didn't miss anything.
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  When you say, is it the people in the church or Americans do not have these seven?
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  Well, take your pen.
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  It's true for both groups.
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  Oh, I didn't like that answer, but I know it's probably true.
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  So one thing I wanted to ask you is, where is the question?
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  Oh, at the beginning of the book, you open the book.
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  This is a great word, lifequake.
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  You call life a series of lifequakes.
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  So what does a worldview have to do with surviving these lifequakes?
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  Are these trials?
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  Are these things that could potentially rock your world or worldview?
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah, I mean, we face those every day, you know, from major crises to little irritations.
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  But these are things that are always pressing us to try to figure out who am I?
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  What do I believe?
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  What am I trying to accomplish?
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  You know, what's going to fulfill my destiny?
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  What do I think my destiny is?
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  All of these kinds of core issues and constantly we're being pushed and tugged and challenged and
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  You know, trials and tribulations, as you allude to, are always in our midst.
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  So the way that you get through life successfully is by understanding that God made you.
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  He made you for a purpose.
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  He loves you.
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  That's why he made you.
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  He wants to have that relationship with you.
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  And he wants you to succeed.
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  And in order to succeed, he gave us principles to live by.
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  And so the challenge for us when we face these little life quakes is, all right, what's the biblical principle that I can draw on that will get me through this situation, whether it's large, whether it's small, whether it's somewhere in between.
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  But I've got to constantly be making decisions.
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  And we need to recognize that our worldview is our decision-making filter for life.
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  That's why it's developed by the age of 13, because when we're young, every day we're having to face new kinds of decisions that we're making.
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  So we're trying to put together our experiences and information and relationships and opportunities, all of those things, to make sense of our reality and to try to figure out, yeah, what kind of person do I want to be?
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  How am I going to become that person?
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  What's it going to take?
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  And so our worldview is the accumulation of all those answers
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  that we've been building up ever since we were about one and a half years old.
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  And what we found is by the age of 13, your worldview is pretty much settled.
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  We discovered that most people's worldview doesn't change for the rest of their life.
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  Sometimes it does.
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  Sometimes the Holy Spirit will give us a crisis to wrestle with, and it causes us to go back and challenge everything.
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  And then we've got a great opportunity to rebuild a worldview.
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  But that's very rare.
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  And so we need to get it right early.
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  If we don't, we want to change it.
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  It's going to be a lot of hard work.
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  But it can be done.
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  But it can't be done unless you build on that very solid foundation.
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  On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.
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  This is a warning to parents and grandparents of Christian kids.
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  If your worldview is established by 13, we know that the secular world, meaning the government-run education system, Hollywood, social media, the media—
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  corporations, they are bombarding young people at younger and younger ages and reaching them.
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  And I will say maybe making disciples, just not in the Christian way of making disciples.
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  So parents and grandparents, can you give a little bit of advice for parents or grandparents of Christian kids just how to avoid some of this or how to build this while they know they're being bombarded by all the rest?
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  Well, yeah, a couple responses there.
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  One is most kids have no idea they're being bombarded by worldview messages every day.
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  They're just seeking to be informed or entertained or comforted.
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  I mean, they've got other kinds of objectives.
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  They're not thinking about, gee, what's my philosophy of life?
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  Do I have it together?
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  Am I going to honor God?
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  Do I care if I honor God?
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  Do I even believe in God?
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  That's not the kind of stuff that typically is going through their minds.
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  They're trying to make it through the day just like the rest of us.
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  And along the way, they're trying to pick up some tips for themselves about how to lead a successful life based on what they think success is.
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  And by the way, that's why the definition of success is one of the foundations, the seven cornerstones.
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  That's a key.
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  And so, you know, if you're a parent or a grandparent,
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  And you want to, let's put it in biblical terms, disciple a child or a grandchild or a neighbor's child or a child who's on the team that you're coaching.
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  Wherever you may have the opportunity to influence a young person, first thing you've got to do is build a sense of trust with them.
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  Because they're not going to start taking cues from you until they believe that you're a trustworthy person, that you've figured life out, that you want the best for them, that you're willing to share your wealth of experience and knowledge with them, and that it would be profitable for them personally.
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  So building that bridge of trust, having a real relationship with them,
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  is important.
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  And one of the things to recognize about building that kind of a relationship is it takes a lot of time and effort and energy.
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  So it's not going to be on the run.
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  It's not going to be quick.
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  I get really upset with evangelists and disciple makers who say, look, all they need to do is hear the gospel and say the magic prayer and they're in and you can move on to the next person.
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  Not at all.
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  That's not how it works.
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  doing research for 50 years, I can show you an abundance of evidence that if you want someone to become a disciple, it's probably going to take years for that individual to work down that pathway to become Christ-like, because that's where a disciple is, an imitator of Jesus.
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  And so to get that way is going to take a lot of work.
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  Oh my goodness.
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  You made me think of all the years of evangelism.
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  I mean, some of it was good.
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  It's probably all well-intentioned.
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  But a lot of times it lacked the follow-up after these people came forward.
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  But maybe that was a moment of emotion, and they came forward and said the prayers, said these certain words, and thought they were good to go.
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  But I know that's for another podcast, Dr. Barna.
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  So let's get back to syncretism, because we talked about this a podcast or two ago with you.
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  Why is syncretism the most common worldview?
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  Can you explain that?
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  Why only 4% of Americans have a biblical worldview, but syncretism just seems so easy.
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  Well, it is.
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  It's the most comfortable, it's the most accessible worldview in our environment, because basically what syncretism is, is us evaluating all the different options around us.
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  You know, what does Marxism have to say about this issue?
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  What does secular humanism have to say about that?
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  What about Eastern mysticism?
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  You know, and so on.
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  You go through all the different worldviews, biblical theism, the biblical worldview.
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  one of many options.
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  And so what happens is people kind of rip through all of their options and they pick out the one that they like the best.
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  You know, it makes them feel comfortable.
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  It makes them feel secure.
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  It's the popular or hot worldview of the moment.
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  You know, it's something that will let them fit in with their peer group, whatever it may be that drives that choice.
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  What they're doing is building a customized philosophy of life.
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  In essence, what we're saying is, you know what, the people who came up with Marxism, they really didn't understand how life works.
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  Maybe they got a few things right.
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  I'll take a few things from Marxism, but I'm going to spit out the rest.
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  You know, biblical theism, yeah, the Bible has some good things to say, but I'm not buying all that stuff.
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  I'm just going to take the things that make me feel comfortable and secure.
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  We do that with Marxism.
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  all these worldviews and before you know it, we've got this polyglot, this mishmash of different philosophical ideas, some of which oddly enough may even conflict with each other, but that doesn't bother us because we're not philosophers.
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  We're not worried about, am I being internally consistent?
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  Am I being completely logical and rational?
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  What we're worried about is, am I getting through the day?
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  Do I seem to be more successful now than I was before?
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  Am I happy?
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  Do I feel good?
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  Those are our indicators.
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  When you're describing that and explaining that very well, I thought about the term cafeteria Christianity.
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  Taking a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little bit of this.
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  The things that—maybe the sweets, a lot of cotton candy, I bet, but not a lot of substance.
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  Anyway, I want to get to—
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  the difference between believing in Jesus and thinking like Jesus.
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  You already talked a little bit about that.
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  But before I do that, I love the wording where I saw the words you used.
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  Your worldview is an operating system.
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  We often hear it referred to a lens, a framework through which we see the world.
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  But I like that idea of an operating system.
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  Do you want to comment a little bit further on that before we get to the next question?
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  You know, when you write a book, or at least when I do, I sit in front of a computer for days at a time.
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  And so I get to know my computer really well.
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  You know, sometimes when I daydream, I'm thinking, wow, what's going on in that box there?
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  And I, you know, one day I was thinking about it.
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  It's like, well, you know, that's just a box of bolts and wires and frames and things that unless it has something to direct,
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  all the impulses that are going through the machine, nothing's gonna happen.
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  And that's what the operating system is.
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  It would be completely confused and baffled and useless without that operating system.
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  And human beings are the same way.
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  We have an operating system as well, and God implanted it in us.
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  But we get to determine, well, am I going to use this operating system or that operating system?
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  We get to make those choices.
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  He allows us to do that because that's part of him trying to build a relationship with us.
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  He desperately wants that.
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  You know, hopefully we desperately want that with him.
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  And if so, we want to figure out, well, what operating system should I use?
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  You know, and his answer would be, aha, I provided it to you.
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  You know, it's called the Bible.
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  And so that will direct you through all the challenges, all the opportunities, all the questions that you've got in life.
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  But if you don't have the right operating system in place, the machine isn't gonna work.
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  It's not gonna take you where you want it to take you.
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  And that's the problem with all these other worldviews that we were identifying is that they're not right.
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  They're going to take you to the wrong places.
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  And when you look at our culture, David, you know as well as I do, that a culture is simply the accumulated worldviews of all of its people in practice.
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  And so what we've got is a nation of 276 million or so adults.
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  almost all of whom have a unique worldview because most of them are syncretists.
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  And so we're at odds with each other.
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  We're at odds with the government.
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  We're at odds with our institutions.
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  We're at odds with our family because we're not agreeing on the truths that God has given to us in his operating plans for us, his operating system for us.
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  If we all work through that same operating system, we'd have a totally different culture.
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  Amen.
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  Great.
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  Great answer.
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  This is going by fast.
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  I'm going to get as many questions in as I want.
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  Back to the one about the difference between believing in Jesus and thinking like Jesus, because believing in Jesus does not change your behavior, but thinking like Jesus, that will change your behavior.
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  You already spoke to that a little bit.
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  Can you speak a little bit more on that?
• 19:17
  Yeah, of course.
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  You know—
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  One of the things that struck me when I was writing this and I was going through the scriptures is even Satan believes in Jesus.
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  You know, he's not going to do what Jesus tells him to do because he wants to replace Jesus.
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  That's right.
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  You know, that's part of his worldview.
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  But, yeah, I mean, so believing about Jesus, believing in his existence, that in and of itself certainly isn't enough.
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  What you've got to do is take that and say, well, and say this with all the things that we're talking about.
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  Well, so what?
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  What difference does it make?
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  What difference could it make?
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  What difference scripturally should it make?
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  And so that's why you want to look at all of these beliefs.
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  And it's not just enough to possess the belief.
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  In the book, I talk about you've got to own these principles.
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  So you believe them, but you believe them so much that you convert them into a lifestyle.
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  You convert them into action.
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  And that's really what a worldview is.
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  You prove what you believe by what you do.
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  So it's important that we not simply give intellectual assent to these things, but that we actually carry them out through our lifestyle.
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  So can a person then have a worldview by accident?
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  Does that happen if you don't purposely build one?
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  Most people's worldview has been built by what I call default, worldview by default.
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  They don't know they have a worldview.
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  They don't know what a worldview is.
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  Before the age of 13, it's developing.
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  They never heard of any of this stuff.
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  They're not thinking critically about, gee, what's going to happen if I don't believe in God?
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  What's going to happen if I don't believe that I'm a sinner?
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  What's going to happen if I reject Jesus Christ or if I accept some other God?
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  You know, what's going to happen if I believe in reincarnation as opposed to, you know, salvation through Christ?
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  What?
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  That's not the kind of stuff that kids are wrestling with.
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  You know, it's like, should I beat up Jimmy on the playground because he made a face at me in front of that girl that I'm trying to impress?
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  I mean, those are the kinds of things that start shaping their worldview.
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  So yeah, I mean, it does happen by default.
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  And that's why it's so imperative that those of us who are older, hopefully more mature in the Christian faith, deeper into scripture, we can come alongside young people
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  And they don't need to know all the scholarly terms about what's going on, ecclesiology and all the rest of it.
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  But they do need some help in figuring out how you respond to people matters.
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  What you think about God matters.
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  How you deal with the Bible matters.
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  How you define success matters.
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  What you think your purpose in life is matters.
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  Do you know that you have a purpose?
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  Do you know that God gave you that purpose?
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  Could you identify what it is?
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  Are you committed to it?
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  Those are the kinds of things that we need to come alongside them, be asking questions.
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  The best approach I've found is a Socratic approach, not where you're always to believe this or else, but instead ask, hey, what do you believe about this?
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  And just have an aligned questions that gets them to start thinking for themselves so that ultimately when they come to the conclusion, they own that conclusion.
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  And it'll be much easier for us to help them then put that conclusion into a lifestyle.
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  So in the book, this is flying by, the seven cornerstones are in chapters.
• 22:45
  In chapter seven, I'm jumping way ahead in the book, but I want to go back to defining success on earth, and that is God's definition of success is very different than the American definition, or sometimes even the Christian, because we're living in this world and think money—
• 23:02
  influence, fame, wealth, power, that's success.
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  But could you help us understand that we have to have our worldview aligned with God and the Bible to understand his definition of success?
• 23:17
  Yeah, you know, David, it's interesting because even in churches, what I discovered is most church people don't know how God defines success.
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  And they typically start to think of religiosity, if you will, sociological, you know, as as being what success looks like.
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  I go to church a lot.
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  You know, I own a bunch of Bibles.
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  I pray fairly regularly.
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  I'm in a small group.
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  I give money to my church.
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  And they think that's what makes somebody successful.
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  God's definition, which you can find in John 8, 31, is if you want to be my disciple, obey my principles.
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  Success in life, or obey my teaching, success in life is consistent obedience to God.
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  Because we're not here to try to impress other people.
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  We're here to try to bless and honor and serve God.
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  And the way that we do that is by being obedient to the commands and the principles that he's given to us to lead a meaningful God-honoring, kingdom-advancing life.
• 24:22
  So a couple minutes left, and chapter 8, you end the book with building on the foundation.
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  What can you say to the Christian who thinks, well, I haven't purposely built a biblical worldview, and mine is a little shaky?
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  What would you say to them?
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  I'd say this is the most important thing you're going to do in your life.
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  So do whatever it takes to go back, examine your worldview.
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  If it's lacking in places, rebuild it.
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  It's not going to be easy.
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  It's not going to be quick.
• 24:57
  You know, you took years and years to get what you have.
• 25:00
  It's going to take years and years to get rid of it and replace it with something that's biblical.
• 25:04
  Yeah.
• 25:05
  But make that investment, make that commitment.
• 25:08
  If you're not sure what your worldview is, because most people don't hear about this, churches don't teach about this, public schools don't teach about this, families don't talk about this, in spite of what Deuteronomy 6 tells us to do.
• 25:20
  So, you know, what I'd suggest, maybe do something like we have an online tool, the ACU worldview assessment.
• 25:28
  It's something that I developed out of our years of worldview research to help people figure out what is your worldview?
• 25:34
  How do you fare with the seven cornerstones?
• 25:36
  Where do you need to rebuild?
• 25:39
  And that might be something that would launch you down a more efficient path of becoming who Christ made you to be.
• 25:45
  I think in the Kindle version of the book on Amazon, there's a link to that assessment at the end of the book, if I'm not mistaken.
• 25:54
  But thank you so much.
• 25:56
  How to Think Like Jesus on Amazon.
• 26:00
  Friends, you can go directly there.
• 26:02
  Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview.
• 26:05
  As long as we're here, there's still time, but it's running out.
• 26:09
  Sir, thank you so much for all the work you do.
• 26:11
  It's always great to talk to you and Adam and just talk about the research and what we can do about it and need to do about it.
• 26:18
  God bless you, and Lord willing, we'll do this again.
• 26:21
  Thank you, David.
• 26:22
  I appreciate it.
• 26:24
  And congrats on the book, friends.
• 26:25
  It is a brand new book just out a few days ago.
• 26:28
  Make sure you look that up.
• 26:29
  Thank you so much for tuning in, for watching, listening, and sharing the podcast.
• 26:34
  Also, thank you for praying for us as a ministry.
• 26:37
  There is spiritual warfare.
• 26:39
  And I know you guys know what that's like if you're a mature believer in Christ.
• 26:43
  So God bless you.
• 26:44
  And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.
• 26:47
  We will see you next time.