Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 83 - Joy Clark - Chief People Officer Worldwide Clinical Trials

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Episode 83 - Joy Clark - Chief People Officer Worldwide Clinical Trials · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:05
  So welcome back to another episode of the Bio Hub.
• 0:09
  It's an absolute pleasure to have Joy Clark with us.
• 0:12
  She's the chief people officer at World World Clinical Trials
• 0:15
  and we'll be talking about her journey a bit about the team at
• 0:20
  Worldwide. And then also we're going to
• 0:22
  jump on some specialist topics like culture and how to build
• 0:26
  sustainably. So pleasure to have you Joy, how
• 0:29
  are you? I'm great.
• 0:30
  Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
• 0:33
  No, it's great to have you. It's really great to have you.
• 0:36
  So let let us just start off with your career journey into
• 0:40
  CRO from having a pretty diverse industry background, how was the
• 0:47
  transition and what was the biggest change coming in?
• 0:51
  Yeah. So my background is, you know, I
• 0:53
  grew up in a family business, worked a lot for family members,
• 0:57
  which teaches you certain types of resiliency and spent a lot of
• 1:02
  years in high growth companies. That's really what I love to do,
• 1:06
  is to grow companies very quickly.
• 1:08
  And they've ranged from transportation, retail, all
• 1:13
  kinds of technology companies, data science.
• 1:16
  And when the opportunity worldwide came up, I was
• 1:18
  extremely excited because it was an area that I hadn't worked in
• 1:22
  before. And I was at a point in my life
• 1:24
  where I was looking for, you know, wanting to stay local to
• 1:28
  where I'm raising my children. I have retired from working for
• 1:32
  jerks. So I was really intense on
• 1:35
  working for great human beings and was only networking with
• 1:38
  great human beings. I wanted to do something that
• 1:42
  mattered because of course cell phones matter, data science
• 1:46
  matters, technology matters, LED lighting matters, transportation
• 1:50
  matters. All of these things in my
• 1:52
  background that I've worked on and learned about mattered.
• 1:55
  But this just kind of mattered in a different way.
• 1:58
  Being at a certain point in life, being able to contribute
• 2:01
  to the generation of new medicines that save and improve
• 2:05
  people's lives felt like kind of the next logical step in in my
• 2:10
  journey. So that was kind of how I
• 2:12
  arrived at worldwide. I networked with great people,
• 2:15
  only people I really would want to share time with.
• 2:17
  And from there was introduced to our CEO and, and, and made the
• 2:22
  transition in terms of transitioning from these other
• 2:28
  types of businesses to life science or to CRO contract
• 2:32
  research itself. I think the biggest change was
• 2:36
  working with billable employees. And it really was a powerful
• 2:40
  shift in my thinking around HR and around people strategies
• 2:45
  where we really need to be focused more on people
• 2:47
  enablement than managing the resources, you know, the human
• 2:52
  resources. And that's kind of defined our
• 2:55
  whole approach since I joined the company.
• 2:58
  I love that because you you've been in a few different
• 3:02
  industries. Did you find there was a big
• 3:04
  transition period for each of those industry changes?
• 3:07
  So and was by Yeah, well, CRO, the biggest difference or or
• 3:12
  not? I don't think so.
• 3:14
  I mean it was, it was a powerful difference in that it was a
• 3:17
  shift from people who make things, products and services to
• 3:23
  people who provide a service. So in a lot of my prior roles,
• 3:28
  our employees were building something, they were building a
• 3:30
  phone, they were building a light bulb or making the
• 3:34
  engineering behind these types of technological innovations.
• 3:38
  The difference that worldwide is our employees are the product.
• 3:43
  I mean we are selling their expertise, we are selling their
• 3:47
  abilities, we're selling their competency.
• 3:50
  And so engaging with them is different because their
• 3:55
  engagement, their satisfaction, their engagement with the
• 3:58
  culture, their experience of the company matters in a whole
• 4:02
  different way because it's the product.
• 4:04
  And if we promise our customers a certain way of performing for
• 4:10
  them as a as a company, as a vendor, and we don't promise
• 4:14
  that same thing to our employees, it's kind of
• 4:16
  disingenuous, right? Yeah, 100%.
• 4:21
  I want to talk like HR is a pretty bolt like broad role in
• 4:27
  its own right. But I think especially now more
• 4:31
  than ever, you probably took in the last 5-10 years or so, it's
• 4:34
  expanded even more. There's other priorities that
• 4:37
  are taking, you know, that are really important to companies
• 4:41
  that HR has taken on what, what, what roles do you have to
• 4:46
  balance then? And what strategies have you
• 4:48
  used to to maintain parity and focus in a in a really multi
• 4:52
  faceted role? Yeah, it's, it's been a
• 4:56
  challenge for sure. I mean, the last five years, I
• 4:58
  don't know anybody that would say, oh, that was easy.
• 5:01
  Nothing surprising happened to me.
• 5:04
  So we've really developed and evolved our role from kind of a
• 5:08
  service provider to more of a utility player.
• 5:12
  When there's a gap that needs to be filled, oftentimes our team
• 5:16
  will jump in and say we don't know how to do it either, but
• 5:19
  we'll get it started or we'll stand it up or we'll give it a
• 5:21
  try. So that's been a really
• 5:25
  unexpected and fulfilling experience to be able to jump in
• 5:29
  and help solve business problems that have presented themselves
• 5:33
  as a result of COVID, for sure, war, labor redistribution,
• 5:39
  climate issues, business challenges, opening new
• 5:43
  locations, closing others. We've we've played a a very
• 5:46
  different role than kind of implementer of someone else's
• 5:49
  ideas. We've been more of a facilitator
• 5:52
  of the company's best thinking. And that's been a lot of fun.
• 5:55
  And I think it's created a lot of value for the company to have
• 5:59
  someone from a more objective point of view coming in and
• 6:02
  supporting those activities differently.
• 6:05
  Yeah, tell tell us about like the the people strategy and and
• 6:09
  the culture aspects at worldwide.
• 6:12
  Yeah, it's, it's interesting. You know, when I first joined
• 6:16
  the company six years ago now, the first thing I did was read
• 6:19
  all of the exit interviews from the prior two years and I wanted
• 6:23
  to know why people left because CRO contract research has a very
• 6:28
  high turnover rate as kind of a standard.
• 6:33
  And I knew that if we could reduce turnover, then we could
• 6:36
  reduce leakage, right, The switching cost of the billable
• 6:40
  resources of our billable employees by having them stay
• 6:43
  longer and enable our customers in a in a bigger and stronger
• 6:47
  way. So we started looking at that,
• 6:50
  and I remember coming from my last job being in technology,
• 6:54
  when I read the exit interviews, there was a word that kept
• 6:57
  appearing in them over and over again.
• 6:59
  I thought, this is weird. I'm not sure how I feel about
• 7:02
  this, but the word was love. And I thought, how strange is it
• 7:06
  that the word love is? I mean, aside from, you know,
• 7:10
  pronouns and articles, the most common word in our exit
• 7:14
  interviews. And that's when I really knew I
• 7:17
  was working in a very different kind of place and one where
• 7:21
  people were absolutely passionate about the science.
• 7:25
  They're passionate about saving and improving lives, but they're
• 7:28
  also passionate about kind of the promises that they make to
• 7:31
  each other and how they show up for each other.
• 7:34
  I love my manager. I love my team.
• 7:36
  I love the work that I do. Right?
• 7:38
  All of these words were in the exit interviews.
• 7:41
  So I thought if I could, if we could harness that and find out
• 7:45
  why they were choosing to leave when there was so much love for
• 7:49
  the work that they were doing, then we could stem the tide of
• 7:52
  turnover. So that was kind of the the
• 7:54
  foundation of our approach to the culture transformation at
• 7:58
  worldwide. Since then, you know, we've
• 8:01
  we've had a number of proof points like the world has tested
• 8:04
  us like everyone in the last five years.
• 8:07
  And you know, when I think about our approach to COVID or any of
• 8:10
  these other geopolitical crises that have arisen, we've tried to
• 8:14
  stay very clear and very focused on our employees and who are we
• 8:20
  and what are we here to do and finding the part in it.
• 8:23
  That's always true. You know, we can be distracted
• 8:27
  by this little noise over here or that little idea over here or
• 8:31
  all of the what about worst case scenarios?
• 8:34
  But when you stay really focused on the part that's always true,
• 8:38
  then you can you can make better decisions acting from that, from
• 8:42
  that place. Yeah, definitely.
• 8:45
  I mean, how, how big of a company worldwide when you, when
• 8:50
  you joined or is it like almost six years ago?
• 8:52
  Yeah. So that's a great question.
• 8:55
  We were about 1600 employees, we're about 3600 now.
• 9:00
  We operate in 57 countries. It's a very complex environment,
• 9:06
  and that complexity, weirdly has been something that that's
• 9:13
  allowed for a lot of focus and simplicity because you have to
• 9:16
  find something that works for everyone, right?
• 9:19
  You can't accommodate every single request, but you can find
• 9:24
  the part that makes you kind of elevate your thinking to the
• 9:27
  strategy. The part that's always true
• 9:29
  comes through in that way. Yeah, yeah.
• 9:32
  The main reason I want to ask that as well, like coming back
• 9:34
  to the culture pieces with 1600 people is it's really hard to
• 9:39
  distill a culture on, on all of them.
• 9:41
  I don't know if you came in and some of the building blocks are
• 9:44
  already there ready to go out or if it was it was right.
• 9:47
  How, how am I going to really get who we are as a company
• 9:51
  across all these 1600 people at the time and now 3000 plus?
• 9:56
  Yeah, no, it's a great question. Culture is, I think a lot of
• 10:02
  people try to control culture or drive culture or create culture.
• 10:07
  I, I think of it a little differently.
• 10:09
  It's more about harnessing the culture that's already there,
• 10:13
  right? So the, the people think and
• 10:16
  behave and believe what they're going to think and behave and
• 10:20
  believe, right? So it's all about how we channel
• 10:23
  the things that they naturally do.
• 10:25
  So of course, when I came in the building, we had, you know, our
• 10:28
  company values. We have a list of them.
• 10:30
  We have definitions and we have what they mean and what they
• 10:32
  look like. And they're on our screensavers
• 10:35
  and they're on little cards you can put on your desk.
• 10:38
  And that's all great to have as like a tangible artifact, right?
• 10:44
  But the real culture is the stuff that happens every day
• 10:49
  that the, the, the true artifacts, the behavioral
• 10:52
  indicators about how work really gets done around here, right?
• 10:57
  That's the real culture. So that's what we spent time
• 11:00
  tapping into are the proof points in the way that we work
• 11:04
  every day that symbolize these things that we have on posters
• 11:08
  or screensavers or, you know, desk cards.
• 11:12
  And again, the world provided a lot of opportunities to do that.
• 11:16
  You know, we we say like a lot of companies, our employees come
• 11:19
  first. And in our organization, because
• 11:22
  our employees are the product they have to, if we're not
• 11:26
  enabling our workforce and making it easier to work here
• 11:30
  than to work anywhere else, what are we doing, right?
• 11:34
  So when COVID presented itself, that was our focus.
• 11:38
  We took the approach of how do we make it easier for our
• 11:41
  billable employees, really all of our employees, to work here
• 11:44
  than anyplace else. And we had a number of
• 11:47
  opportunities to prove if we meant it or not, right?
• 11:50
  Access to leadership. That's something we really
• 11:53
  believe in. We had a number of opportunities
• 11:55
  throughout COVID to say we have access to leadership.
• 11:59
  We're going to meet you where we are, where you are, we're going
• 12:01
  to talk to you or we're going to go hide, right?
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  We have those choices. We're going to mandate things or
• 12:07
  we're going to listen to you and see what works for you
• 12:10
  personally. And so each of those events as
• 12:14
  they occurred became a proof point to the items that are
• 12:17
  listed on the screensaver or on the the placard or on the
• 12:21
  company poster. I feel, I feel like I just
• 12:25
  really resonated with that in a lot of ways.
• 12:29
  I don't often mention that on the podcast at least that that
• 12:32
  I, I work in recruitment and it's a similar in that regard,
• 12:37
  in fact, that the people are what you're selling in terms of
• 12:41
  the way you're working with. And I came from a company where
• 12:45
  culture wasn't a focus. And you're talking about, well,
• 12:49
  it's like the people are our product.
• 12:50
  They've got to be our focus, our happiness, that the environment
• 12:54
  they work in has got to be incredible that that just really
• 12:57
  resonated with me. I just feel like I have to let
• 12:58
  it know. No, I think it's very powerful.
• 13:02
  You know, when we waste the time of our employees, we're wasting
• 13:07
  the time of our customers and we're wasting the money of our
• 13:11
  shareholders. So one of the tenants of our
• 13:14
  people philosophy is what I call frictionless HR.
• 13:18
  It should be easier to work here than anywhere else.
• 13:21
  And so every morning I wake up thinking about how do I make it
• 13:24
  easier to work here, right? And sometimes we get it right.
• 13:27
  We think we're going to make something easy and we're, we're
• 13:29
  right. Other times we get it wrong.
• 13:31
  This great idea we had to make things easy actually was a pain
• 13:35
  in the neck. So we we scrap it and we get on
• 13:37
  to the next thing. Yeah.
• 13:40
  And and I think this follows on nicely, not necessarily culture,
• 13:43
  but like from a diversity perspective.
• 13:46
  I mean, I've been given this fact and I was like, it seems
• 13:49
  almost unbelievable. In today's market, you're
• 13:52
  organising 73% women. Yeah.
• 13:56
  Yeah. Why is that so important to you
• 13:58
  guys like specifically? Again, clinical research is kind
• 14:03
  of like this. I imagine we would find fairly
• 14:05
  similar numbers in a lot of our peer groups.
• 14:09
  So but it because we are 73% female and we have a lot of
• 14:14
  women in leadership, we have, you know, some different
• 14:17
  approaches to things like our employee benefits.
• 14:20
  For example, if you ask for a Women's Health centric approach
• 14:25
  to your benefit plan, most companies will bring you
• 14:28
  fertility. Let's do IVF or you know,
• 14:32
  adoption benefits or what have you.
• 14:35
  But in addition to having a 70, 3% female organization, we have
• 14:39
  an average age of 43, right? So perimenopause begins at 35.
• 14:45
  That is not the problem we are trying to solve.
• 14:48
  That is not the problem our employees are trying to solve.
• 14:50
  So how do we meet them where they are with the kinds of
• 14:53
  things that are affecting their bodies and their lives as a part
• 14:57
  of our benefit plan? Now, if you were 73% male, that
• 15:01
  might never enter the dialogue in terms of your corporate
• 15:05
  benefit plan. Yeah.
• 15:09
  I mean, I look that how much does it come into it when
• 15:11
  you're, and this is diversity as a whole.
• 15:14
  This is not necessarily gender, but like how does it come into
• 15:17
  your recruitment process you differ in any way or?
• 15:21
  We focus both culturally, internally and in our
• 15:24
  recruitment process on a sense of belonging.
• 15:27
  So that's the the primary thing that we're after, that people
• 15:30
  can come to worldwide clinical trials and do their best work.
• 15:35
  And they can do it by bringing all of the gifts and talents
• 15:38
  that they have to bear. And our philosophy is if you
• 15:40
  have to hide a part of yourself because it's not safe to be who
• 15:44
  you are at work, then we're never going to get the best that
• 15:47
  you have to bring. So that that's the approach.
• 15:50
  And we look at that from our recruitment practices to our
• 15:52
  performance practices to our rewards, even down to the
• 15:56
  diversity council and the types of areas that they focus on.
• 16:00
  It's very employee driven and it's very belonging driven.
• 16:04
  Yeah, this is a bit of a tough question and not what we
• 16:09
  organize just for the audience's sake.
• 16:14
  But you, you don't have to answer, I guess.
• 16:17
  But do you think other companies are doing enough in that
• 16:21
  respect? Around belonging.
• 16:24
  Around, well, diversity, recruitment process diversity,
• 16:28
  but but also the belonging side, yeah.
• 16:31
  Yeah. I mean that that's kind of a
• 16:33
  lightning rod topic in these times.
• 16:35
  But what I will say is for our company and for our industry,
• 16:41
  diversity and equity, belonging, inclusion, these things are
• 16:45
  absolutely critical for good science, right?
• 16:50
  We don't have adequate representation in the
• 16:52
  development of a drug. We will build a drug that
• 16:55
  doesn't work for everyone. You know, 87% I think is the
• 16:59
  number, 87% of clinical trial participants are white men.
• 17:03
  And if that's the case we don't under, then we're surprised when
• 17:06
  we don't know how other bodies work, right?
• 17:10
  So good diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, it's good
• 17:14
  for science. It's also good for business.
• 17:17
  You know, when we're able to see all facets of a problem because
• 17:21
  the people have different brains and feel free to bring their
• 17:25
  different ideas to the problem, then we get better solutions.
• 17:29
  And that's not just for science, it's for business too.
• 17:32
  Now to your question, is everyone doing enough?
• 17:34
  Of course, no one's doing enough or we wouldn't.
• 17:36
  It wouldn't be a topic, right? So there's always more to do in
• 17:40
  this space. But I think being curious and
• 17:43
  listening to your employees, listening to your customers and
• 17:46
  the kinds of problems they're trying to solve, when we have
• 17:49
  more brains on it that think from different points of view,
• 17:53
  we're going to get a better solution.
• 17:56
  So to me that's it's kind of table stakes.
• 18:01
  Yeah. And obviously, like as a woman
• 18:04
  in the industry, have you felt the changes since you've been in
• 18:08
  the industry? And I don't know what.
• 18:10
  What challenges have you faced personally and professionally as
• 18:13
  a female leader? Yeah.
• 18:15
  Well, I mean, of course I'm, you know, I started working when I
• 18:19
  was nine years old, right, in a family business and have had a
• 18:24
  number of experiences throughout the late 80s and early 90s that
• 18:29
  would fall into all of the stereotypical horrifying
• 18:33
  workplace experiences that you might expect.
• 18:37
  So the good news is those things I don't hear about happening
• 18:41
  anymore, I don't experience happening anymore.
• 18:43
  I don't litigate them happening anymore.
• 18:47
  But there are still, you know, challenges and changes that need
• 18:50
  to be made. And I think one of the most
• 18:53
  potent ones in in our world now is kind of comes to mind from a
• 18:58
  story one of our employees told us or told me the last time I
• 19:02
  visited Serbia. We were having a focus group on
• 19:08
  diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging and asking if our
• 19:13
  approach was relevant and useful for people in Serbia.
• 19:18
  And one of the women spoke up and said, you know, it's really
• 19:23
  a strange question that you ask because here at work, I'm a
• 19:27
  leader, I'm respected. I ask for something, people
• 19:31
  deliver it. My opinion is requested and I
• 19:34
  provide it and it's listened to and then I go home and the
• 19:39
  person repairing our dishwasher will not speak to me.
• 19:42
  They will only speak to my husband.
• 19:45
  And just because we experienced this in our company doesn't mean
• 19:50
  that we experience it in our community.
• 19:53
  And that is extremely challenging.
• 19:57
  And it just made me think about these challenges in an entirely
• 20:01
  different way that we can certainly do the best that we
• 20:05
  can to make sure that we have a work environment that provides
• 20:08
  all of these things. But we also need to be thinking
• 20:11
  about how to change them in our communities so that, you know,
• 20:15
  people can wholly experience and the world can wholly experience
• 20:19
  the gifts that they they come to bear and the and the value that
• 20:22
  their brain brings to problems. I think the biggest challenge
• 20:27
  that that kind of symbolizes is that we have a real problem with
• 20:35
  confusion around competency and confidence.
• 20:39
  Harvard Business reviews written articles on it.
• 20:41
  But we tend as a, a, a, a world to gift people the assumption of
• 20:48
  competence when they speak with confidence.
• 20:52
  And what I would love to see is that we we gift more assumption
• 20:56
  of competency to people who don't speak confidently so that
• 21:01
  we have access to what they have, what they're thinking
• 21:03
  about too, and to their best ideas.
• 21:06
  Yeah, I think that's a great point.
• 21:07
  And it's, it's a strange 1, isn't it?
• 21:11
  Because that's it's hard an execution in some ways, if you
• 21:15
  think about it. Yeah, yeah.
• 21:18
  Interesting. Yeah, It's really easy to think
• 21:21
  when someone is confidently stating, you know, the sky is
• 21:24
  green. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the sky is
• 21:26
  green. Well, it's not actually.
• 21:28
  My own eyes can tell me something different.
• 21:31
  But we're very inclined to believe things that are said
• 21:34
  with confidence. And I think that's the big
• 21:36
  challenge before us now in in all levels of leadership, is to
• 21:41
  keep digging for the facts and the truth behind that statement.
• 21:45
  Yeah, definitely. And then we've been talking
• 21:47
  about diversity and and in terms of talent, what about like on
• 21:51
  the commercial trial front and HealthEquity and what are
• 21:58
  worldwide doing in that regard? Yeah, I mean, HealthEquity is
• 22:02
  extremely important to what we do.
• 22:04
  If it's a, it's a journey like any new entry into scientific
• 22:10
  areas, it's something that we're continuing to evolve.
• 22:14
  I think we began our journey on HealthEquity by having kind of
• 22:18
  isolated people work on it until we could get traction.
• 22:22
  And now we've been able to, we're at the phase of
• 22:25
  operationalizing that into the way that we work every day.
• 22:28
  So I'm pretty excited about the progress that we've made as a
• 22:31
  company. I think in the world we still
• 22:34
  have a lot more work to do around HealthEquity.
• 22:37
  There are a lot of barriers to HealthEquity, a lot of reasons
• 22:41
  people don't participate in clinical research because of,
• 22:46
  you know, bad experimentation that's been done in the past.
• 22:49
  People have long memories on those things as we as they
• 22:51
  should. So there's still a lot more work
• 22:54
  in the world of public opinion to be able to bring diverse
• 22:57
  populations into clinical research.
• 23:00
  Yeah. And then I suppose specifically
• 23:04
  on your side as well, like you, you had a recent role with
• 23:08
  America Heart Association to go red for women.
• 23:11
  Yeah. You just tell us a little bit
• 23:13
  about that. Yeah, for sure.
• 23:15
  I chaired Go Red for Women for the American Heart Association
• 23:18
  of the Triangle last year and I'm on the board now.
• 23:22
  And part of the reason that I joined this activity is, you
• 23:26
  know, one we do cardio metabolic research at worldwide and having
• 23:31
  kind of putting our money where mouth is is, is a good idea from
• 23:36
  a community and popular engagement point of view.
• 23:39
  But also I've had a number of personal experiences in the last
• 23:44
  couple of years that bring the idea of HealthEquity right home,
• 23:49
  right. So I'm 55 almost, you know,
• 23:52
  going through the menopause journey and having, you know,
• 23:55
  thinking I'm dying of any of a number of causes that turn out
• 23:58
  to be hormonal changes. And then looking around and
• 24:02
  talking to other women, they're all going through the same
• 24:04
  thing. Nobody knows about that, right?
• 24:07
  We see women leave the workforce at 3 critical phases of life.
• 24:11
  They they opt out of education in middle school, they opt out
• 24:15
  of the workforce during childbearing, and they opt out
• 24:18
  again during menopause. If we can better serve them
• 24:21
  through better science, we can keep more women in the
• 24:24
  workforce. For example.
• 24:26
  The other area that I would share is I've had a I've lost 3
• 24:31
  beloved family members in the last 18 months to various forms
• 24:36
  of cancer. And while they are not what the
• 24:40
  American Heart Association works on, the thing they all have in
• 24:43
  common was HealthEquity based. One of them was in an extreme
• 24:49
  poverty situation that didn't have adequate healthcare.
• 24:52
  Another lived in a medical desert where they didn't have
• 24:55
  access to good healthcare. And another, while a very highly
• 24:59
  educated person did not have access to the type of of
• 25:03
  guidance and thought leadership on medicine that would have
• 25:06
  given them, you know, a better outcome.
• 25:08
  And when I think about those just in 18 months in my own
• 25:12
  life, where if they had more access to better healthcare,
• 25:15
  maybe they would have lived longer or certainly lived
• 25:18
  better. And then I apply that to my own
• 25:20
  community. You know, I live in a very rich
• 25:23
  medical community with Duke and the University of North Carolina
• 25:26
  right here in my backyard. But 60 miles from here, it's a
• 25:31
  very different situation, both in terms of nutritional
• 25:35
  availability of healthy food and fresh produce, but also access
• 25:39
  to thought, you know, leading edge healthcare and, and
• 25:45
  medicine. And if that's happening right
• 25:47
  here in my own family, right here in my own community, right
• 25:51
  here in my own state, right here in our own country, there's a
• 25:55
  lot, there's a lot we can be doing better there.
• 25:57
  And that's why I joined up with the American Heart Association
• 26:00
  is to help advance these kinds of ideas around HealthEquity and
• 26:04
  making good healthcare and making good food, making good
• 26:08
  medicine available more broadly. Yeah, I mean, it's an amazing
• 26:13
  course and I think it's a really nice place to to finish off the
• 26:18
  podcast as well. So thank you so much for coming
• 26:22
  on, Joy. It's absolute pleasure.
• 26:24
  No, thank you so much for having me.
• 26:27
  And everyone please like and subscribe to the Bio Hub and
• 26:29
  thank you again, Joy. Yeah.
• 26:31
  Thank you.