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Monday Mini: Toxic Cosmetic Surgery · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio. And before we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: get into this one, I just want to ride out
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: the gate. I give you a content warning for just
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: general grossness, like all around misogyny, unhealthy body images, unhealthy
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: body stereotypes, self harming behavior, not great uses of cosmetic surgery,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: body dysmorphia, suicide, and violence. We're not going to go
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: to in depth on any of those things, but they
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: are throughout. So this is I was telling Samantha, anytime
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you talk about in cells, you know it's gonna be rough, right.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: This is one of the I don't think this is
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: actually a healthy thing, but it's one of the few
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: episodes I've had to stop researching. And it's a short
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: short because it just like physically made me feel sick.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: You are not going to I had to like read
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff just to get these facts that
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: just were miserable.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: But here we are.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: I also want to give two disclaimers at the top.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of what I read about this,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of nuance when it comes to getting
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: cosmetic surgery. That's that's often lost I think, and it
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: is really hard to untangle. It's really hard to untangle
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: why you want something. There's been so much research around
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: like how filters and PACTAP people are seen and how
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: they want to be seen body dysmorphia in general when
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: it comes to cosmetic surgery. But if you're coming from
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: a healthy space and you know what you want, you're
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: consenting adults cosmetic surgery, no judgment, Like it's just complicated
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: because of so many so much of the messaging we get,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: even in cosmetic surgery, ads that make it feel very toxic,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: make it feel very erase your age, achieve this one
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: body type that is usually kind of a white European
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: body type. So it's complicated, That's what I'm saying. It's nuanced,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: and I think a lot of that is lost in
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: this conversation. Also a lot of the people who try
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: to defend what we're talking about, which is in cells
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: getting a specific type of cosmetic surgery, bring trans people
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: into the conversation and like masculinization, feminization surgery, just don't
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: that's not the same thing.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that later. It's not the
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: same thing.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: But also there is conversation within the trans community that
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I am not qualified to speak on about that, but
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I just want to make note of it. But that
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: is the thing. Also, there's a huge conversation that happens
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: anytime something comes out about in cells, where it's like,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: are you giving them a platform? Are you giving them sympathy?
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: I think there's a difference between giving platform and sympathy
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: versus just pointing out something that is terrible that is
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: happening that we should talk about, like being aware of
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: how toxic this is, so.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: We need to know. It's kind of that whole level
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: of like when we talked about crime podcasts and about
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: why women are fascinated, it's not and it's gotten toxic.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, there's always toxic levels to everything,
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: but there is this level of, like you need to
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: be aware of what is happening. When we talked about
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: the chat fishing m they're doing.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: A lot lately.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: I feel like they're doing a lot, and I think
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: a part of that is because people are now kind
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: of jaded by it and just lets them be and
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: makes them a joke and moves on, which is a
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: mistake because we know.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: People get hurt.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: So like the big conversation is it's not giving them
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: a platform, it's making sure we are aware because we
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: need to know because if we don't, Andrew takes of
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: the world exist and come out as bigger and they
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: actually profit and create a bigger circle. And that's dangerous.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I think like there's so much in this
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: conversation we're about to have that is disturbing in terms
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: of in so much of the stuff we've internalized and
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: these inseels have internalized and use it to commit violent acts.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: There dangerous violent people, and there's like multiple examples of it.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: So it is important that we know that we talk
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: about these things. So I was at the beach. Listeners
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: was at the beach. This is how the idea came
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: to me. I was trying to write fan fiction, which
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: thank you to all my friends who were with me
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: for like really supporting me and giving me ideas, also
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: telling me how CPR currently works.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Appreciate it.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: But we were talking about I was trying to describe
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: a character and I was trying to describe his chin,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: and I was like, there is a word that goes
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: like typically goes.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: With chin, and I can't think of it. And I
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: was like asking them for help.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: And one of my friends was like, you know, that's
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: a big in cell thing, right, like this kind of
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: fixation on the chin. And I did not know that,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: even though I think we probably did talk about it.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: We have done an episode on in cells before we
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: did chat fushing, I think we've done some other adjacent things.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Either I purposefully like shot it
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: out of my brain or we didn't talk about it.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Could be either, but yeah, she was like, yeah, no,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: it's a huge thing, and that sound of the rabbit
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: holes started, and here we all are.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: She also, I love this. She just said so flippantly.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: These dudes don't know what women want.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, yeah, not wrong at all, but okay,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: So I went on this rabbit hole and the chin is, yes,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: a huge point of discussion in the in cell community.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: If you somehow haven't heard of it, that is involuntary
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: celibate community. And I want to be one thousand percent
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: clear here. It is really a gross, unhealthy discussion, no surprise,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: that is soaked with layers of ableism, racism, sexism, and
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: just unhealthy ideas and fixations around beauty. There are very
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: specific measurements for the chin that separates the in cell
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: from the chad. And if you remember from our in
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: cell episode, the chad is like your traditional hot guy
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: that all the women are going for. That's the simplest
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: way to put it. That they are not. And so
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: in cells slash non chads despise chads for this, but
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: they also often believe that being a chad would greatly
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: improve their lives. So this has involved a vast array
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: of things like skincare, bodybuilding, taking steroids, stretching their penises, mewing,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: which is building your master muscles by chewing hard things
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: and is named after the two British orthodonists who hypothesized
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: this method, and that's to make your jaw more prominent,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: and more recently, cosmetic surgery. So from the cut, here's
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: a quote. Cosmetic surgery among people who identify as mal
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: arose three hundred and twenty five percent between nineteen ninety
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: seven and twenty fifteen in the US, according to the
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: American Society for Esthetic Plastic Surgery. And also just another
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: note here that isn't all in cells, and there is
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of toxic stuff around body types masculine or feminine,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: anything in between that's going on in that as well,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: and also just yeah, healthy consensing. I want to do this,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: but to be clear, there's a lot more going on
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: in that statistics in cells are doing this, but it
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: has led to some cosmetic surgeons, especially those that perform
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: things like jaw surgery or tescal implants or shoulder roddening
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: or shoulder actually what would that be called making them smaller,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: to becoming celebrities in the in cell world, sometimes to
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: the surprise of the cosmonic surgeon. In toxic inceell online spaces,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: the joke in heavy quotes is that the options for
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: an en cell are suicide or cosmetic surgery, and that
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: the only thing keeping a non chad from being a
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: chad is a few millimeters of bone. So there are
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: things like jawser size two, and this is the quip
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: for advice. Jawser size is a patent pending silicon ball
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: that users can chew on systematically in order to exercise
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: their master muscle, which connects the lower jaw to the
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: cheekbones and is most prominent below the ears or the
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: jaw meets the neck. The reasoning goes that an active
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: master muscle is a thicker master muscle and a thicker
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: master muscle makes for a more defined masculine jawline. Ah,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: this is a different podcast. But there is some purported
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: benefits of this in history around the human jaw and
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: soft foods and the intro of the fork and knife.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: But this is yeah, that's a different podcast. I was
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: reading this whole paper about it. I was like, whoa, No,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: this is.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Not for today. Not for today.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Some expect cosmetic surgery to completely change their life for
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: the better, like literally, you will write in forums if
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: I could get this, I will be a different person.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Everyone will love me. I'll get all the women, all
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: the hot women.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: While others get angry when people do treat them differently
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: after surgery, or they feel that that's their perception that
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: people treat them differently after surgery, like it proves their point, like,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: c I got this, and now you're being nice to me,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Here's a quote from ABC in Australia.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Feminist writer Jessica Valenti has described in cels are not
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: a community of sad men that reflect a societal problem
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: with loneliness. They are a community of violent misogynists that
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: reflect a societal problem with sexism and sexual entitlement. And
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: here's a quote from HuffPo. Males tend to take rejection
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: as a challenge to their masculinity or an insult to
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: their perceived place in the social hierarchy. Women are likely
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: to feel emotionally hurt by rejection and to assume that
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: there is something lacking in them that warranted the rejection.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: According to Susan and DEJ White, the chair of Northern
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Illinois University's Department of Counseling, women are encouraged to get
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: over it, but men often feel the need to get
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: even so. I do think this is an important nuance
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: of when we're speaking specifically about in cells and not
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: men who might have body dysmorphia but are not going
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: to be violent towards women or anybody. Just be clear,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: because yeah, reminder, in cells are violent and dangerous. They
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: have killed, harmed, assaulted, and generally punished and harassed people,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: mostly women. Here is oh an upsetting rundown about it quote.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Elliott Roger, a twenty two year old self proclaimed insel
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: who killed himself and six other people in twenty fourteen,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: is hailed as an inspiration in in cell forums. The
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: day before his rampage in Ela Vista, California. He uploaded
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: a video to YouTube titled Retribution, which detailed his plan
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: to slaughter every spoiled, stuck up, blonde slut he could
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: find in a nearby sorority house. If I can't have you, girls,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: I will destroy you, he said in the video. You
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: will finally see that I am, in truth, the superior one,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: the true alpha male. Posts from men who say they
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: dream of going er a reference to Roger's attack are
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: common in inceel and look smax forums. Since his killings,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: there have been other similar attacks, including one in April
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: this year, when a man rammed a van into a
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: crowd of pedestrians in Toronto, killing eight women and two men.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: The suspect, twenty five year old Alec Manassian, wrote a
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: post on Facebook shortly before the mascer, declaring the in
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: cell rebellion has already begun and vowing to overthrow all
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: the chads in Stacy's an in cell reference to good
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: looking men and women. After a gunman killed a woman
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: and a ten year old girl this Sunday in Toronto,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: in cell message boards lit up with excitement that it
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: was possibly the work of a fellow in cell. Police
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: have yet to identify a motive. Anders Bravik, a far
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: right Norwegian chair who killed seventy seven people in twenty
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: eleven when he was thirty two, also expressed violent misogyny
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: and obsessed over his looks, reportedly undergoing cosmetic surgery on
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: his forehead, nose chen before the attack. Other recent mass
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: murders held up as misogynist heroes by INCEL communities include
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: George Sodini, who killed three people and himself in a
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: two thousand nine attack at a women's aerobic class in Pennsylvania,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Song Hoi Chow, who killed thirty two people in Virginia
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven after reportedly stalking to women,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: and Mark Leppenn, who separated male and female students at
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: a Montreal at a Montreal engineering school at nineteen eighty
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: nine and opened fire, killing fourteen women. By comparison, zero
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: women have gone on murderous rampages inspired by rejection. Here
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: is an example of a post you of find in
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: one of these forms about the women that they want.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Here's a quote short stature, but high e features like
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: relatively big lips, big titties, fat ass, quiet doesn't ever
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: contradict to me. Listens to me vent and tells me
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: I'm right, which I am, gives amazing blowjobs, cooks cleans
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: up after me. Not white but light skin, dark hair
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: is fine, but she should diet a lighter color, pretty
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: face because that matters more than anything. Only dresses modestly
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: out of the house, disparages men who I dislike, and
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: keeps away from my friends in order to appear as
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: a non hypergemist as possible, because she knows that if
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: I ever get a whiff of a cheating whore, I
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: will end her. Also occasional threesomes with other women and
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: she lets me cheat but just doesn't say anything because
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: she knows I need to get my rocks off.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Horrible.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm laughing because they're like and no women
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: will have me.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Exactly from exactly Samantha.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: This like is just comical.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: This white Oh gosh, it's like horrific.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: And so you can't see how ridiculous this like, Why
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: wouldn't no one want to do that?
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: I don't understand, like i'd.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: And on top of that, there's this hypocrisy of judging
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: ugly and worse women getting cosmetic surgery or on their
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: looks at doing anything for their looks at all, and
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: then themselves whining that there's more of a stigma for
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: men to get cosmetic surgery, which again maybe true, but
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: that can be true while not judging everyone else and
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: being like you're wrong for doing it.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Also stop judging me for doing.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: They're part of the problem why people are being judged
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: to begin.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: With, exactly, and they are like furious that everything is
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: looks based, but they're the thing. Here's another quote from
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: ABC Australia. Women have endured discriminated vilification and humiliation based
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: on our appearances since pretty much forever, and we get
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: this regardless of whether we are not hashtag hon or not.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Yet Amazingly enough, most of us managed to refrain from
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: driving our vands into innocent Canadians, joining sisterly support groups
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: to egg each other on to mass murder, boasting about
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: lacing the office tem tans with our bodily fluids and
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: so on. And this article does acknowledge that there are
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: studied benefits to being traditionally again also read largely white,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: European beautiful. But there are pitfalls too, especially for women.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: But there yeah, I mean, there has been study into that.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: But as they continue quote. Nowhere in the Decoration of
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: human rights does it mention anything about looking like Rihanna.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: This is a stroke of genetic luck, a freak privilege,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: not a right to which we're entitled. Then there's the
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: bizarre and cell conviction that the only thing holding them
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: back from having relationships with women are their average looks
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: as opposed to the fact that they loathe us with.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: A raging fury. Right to your.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Point, yes, yes, And then there's like horrific things they
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: say in these forums around corrective rape, around reverse rape,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: which is basically they're not having any sex reverse rape.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: But they're dangerous.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: It's dangerous, it's destructive, as toxic, it's gross. And it's
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: so difficult to untangle a lot of this because in
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, another thing TikTok, went viral of an
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: in cel advising other in cells to hit themselves in
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the face with a hammer.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: It's it's a weird spot to be in where I
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: feel no sympathy for this fellow. But that's unhealthy, Like
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: look at yourself, right, that's unhealthy.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Still trying to understand with all the advance meants and
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: education awareness as accessible now you can google things and
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: youtubes and I know there's also bad players, but like
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: they is like that. And then now the no new
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: borax recommendations. Have you heard of this or any they
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: are I'm gonna put this in quotes help gurus. We'll say,
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: like that are and that makes me sad because the
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: word guru has a specific meaning that is not a whitewash.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: But you know, we'll just go with that for now.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Are telling people they need borax because there is like
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: boric acid, like there is a level that you're supposed
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: to have naturally. So their response is, yeah, chemicals, let
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: me do that. Same way with like the pods as
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: well as abermactin like all these things. They are like,
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: this is not smart. Please listen to doctors, but they
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: don't want to for some odd reason because they really
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: think that this is going to advance them, that's not
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: gonna turn their health absolutely wrecked. Like it's just like, huh,
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: why why are we listening? Why? Why why are you
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: hitting yourself with a that's not gonna make you better, guarantee.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Right, And that was one of the big things that
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I took away was sort of going back to that
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: point that this article made was a lot of these
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: people do experience body dysmorphia and that is the thing
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: we should talk about. But again, women do, trans people do,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: non binary people do, and they don't kill. Like there's
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: a difference between yes, we should deal with body dysmorphia
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: and feeling sympathy around that and someone taking that using
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: it as an excuse for that's why I made. I
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: killed people or made their lives miserable.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Right, that's different.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: Odd disconnect that I there's no reasoning, there's there will
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: there will never be reasoning until they themselves realize what
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: the main problem is and that could never happen. Let's
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: just be real honest, because when we talk about like
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: narcissism and how many men develop and what that looks like,
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: because it's that level of like I'm not the problem,
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: you're the problem, yeah, and then jumping ahead to be
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: being making a problem. Like again, that odd message I
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: got from the dude that immediately didn't say hi, I'm
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: so so, it literally says I'm messaging you knowing that
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: you hate Asian men and probably never date me. That's
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: the first thing I got, and I was like, well,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: I'm scared now. Also like that's like that immediate jump
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: of like, instead of being witty or funny or joking
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: or anything else, or just saying hello, that's the response.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: Like those other people, I may very well not respond
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: because I don't think we're a match. I will look
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: at your site and I won't match with these I'm like, eh,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to, but I will hit a block
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: button real quick and probably post a picture and be
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: like girls beware, mm hmm.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Well, And that's that's one of the most frustrating things
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: about this too, is we talk about this all the time.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I feel like are especially in heterin order of spaces,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: dating has become so women feel like they are they're
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: being told to like gatekeep protect themselves.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: They see of what happens in things like.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: This, and then men, some of them, many of them
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: not in cells, feel like women are not going to
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: go on dates with them, and it's just like this
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: really toxic kind of self fulfilling thing.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I mean rejection. Hopefully men won't turn to in cells
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: all men after being rejected.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: But it's sad because I think like a lot of
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: dating has become so for women, very fear based and
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: very like how can I keep myself safe and maybe
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: you would match with more people if you weren't concerned
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Right, or taking tricks, this whole level of tricking women too,
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: there's that whole other level of like again, dating guy,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: the get a girl this way type, like yeah, pick
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: up dudes. All of that was such a fad that
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: people believe this, And the realization is women are women
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: are human. We're human just what we pick up on
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: things too, and we know insincerity for the most part,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: And unless we're playing a game with you, as you're
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: playing a game with us, we're not interested in that.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: That's not that that will never be a thing from
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: whomever you're looking for, Like that's that's gonna be whether
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: it's like you're finding a match because you're trying to
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: find someone on like economic level, economic status, those tricks
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: don't work, like if you don't have it to begin with,
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: there not going to win or you're not going to
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: be datable for them.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Right, and again that that like level of hypocrisy.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: If she has to look this certain way, I shouldn't
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: have to look a certain way, Right, she has to
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: do these certain things, I shouldn't have to do those
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: certain things. I can cheat and do whatever she can't
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: if I get a whiff of it.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and by the way, those are not empty threats.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: We know that we know that the majority of women
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: who are murdered are by their partner. Like we know
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: femicide is a thing based on the fact that you
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: feel rejected, angrier heart and have a right to a woman.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's like an object not a person.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: And another thing that really infuriated me doing this research
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: is so many not so many, like a handful of
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: the men who like left the forums, who aren't like
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: active in the in cell community anymore. Reporters will track
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: down and they have now they have a woman in
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: their data and the partner, and they're seemed happy, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: they'll beg the reporter like, please don't tell her.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen a lot of that.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: You were so willing to encourage all of this violence,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: real violence, we have seen.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: You were supportive of it. You hated women.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Now you found someone, and you are just going to
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: try to sweep all of.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: That away and hope that no one finds out because
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: you know how wrong it is. Actually recently, I just
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: watched a TikTok You're Welcome in which a woman was
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: talking to a group of dudes and it was a
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: young it would tell you tell they the teenagers, like
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: definitely under twenty one. All of them were wearing a
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: fun little place with smiley faces on that and talking
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: about how much they loved Andrew Tait and felt like
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: he was right about women and they were talking about
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: the superiority of men. But as teenage boys, they knew
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: that this was going to scar them. But they still
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: want to follow that line and we know this is
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: the like they were one step ahead. I'll give them that,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: like previously in the generations before where they were like
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: I'm behind the screen. They'll never know in realizing oh wait,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: they do know, and guarantee they'll still be able to
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: figure it out. People will still be able to figure
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: out who these boys were. But the fact is, like
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: they know they're doing something wrong and something that's going
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: to damage them. But yet so I they know even
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: when they before, however angry they are, that this is
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: a bad thing. So it's kind of like, then, yeah,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: why do you think you deserve good things?
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Right? Right?
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: It's like I think they feel like they have to
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: hide but are so proud of secretly, right, it's a
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: very bizarre, very strange, toxic thing.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: It's just my opinion. Yeah, and it's the right opinion.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: But I can't show my face.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Right exactly exactly that always anytime someone's like, you can't
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: talk about this. I've done nothing wrong, but we must
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: never raise some eyebrows alpha.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: But I'm almost scared.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh my gosh. Well, I'm sure we'll come back
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: to this because this is like but one facet of
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: the things I found in this rabbit hole. Uh, and
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: it's it. It is upsetting, but we do need to
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: we need to talk about it. But and is it
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: for today?
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Please?
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: If you have any any thoughts about this, any other
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: topics we should research. I've draw in a breath because
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: it'll be tough, but I we should do it.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Let us know.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: You can email us at Stephanie and Momsteff at iHeartMedia
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: step podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuffane never
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: told you. We also have a tea public store and
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: a book audiobook and a physical book that you can
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: career at Stuff you should read Books dot com. Thanks
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: as always to a super reduce Christina our executive producer
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Maya and our contribut for Joey, Thank you and thanks
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stefan Never Told You is production
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: of my Heart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, you
• 27:08
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• 27:10
  Speaker 1: where you listen to your favorite shows.