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Wedding Dreams: Symbols of Sacred Union and Inner Transformation · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Of the day. I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Hello. Now that our new book, Dreamwise, is out in
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: the world, I want to tell you about a few
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: ways that you can get involved. First, we're going to
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: be recording a live podcast book launch this coming Sunday,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: November 17th at 1 p.m. Eastern. You can catch me
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: the next weekend, Sunday, November 24th in Chicago. There will
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: be a brunch, a book signing, and a workshop. Finally,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: there will be an event near Philadelphia. where I'll be
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: the present to talk about the book and sign books.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: And that will be Sunday, December 1st. So you can
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: catch me live either in Philadelphia area or in Chicago.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Most importantly, read the book and write us a review
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: on Amazon. Thanks so much. Welcome to our second installment
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: of our special year-long series that we're calling Dreamography, where
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: we're looking at different types of dreams. We're asking you
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: to submit your dream. And then we're going to look
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: at a bunch of dreams of that type and just
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: see what they might all have in common, what we
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  Speaker 2: can learn about this type of dream. So today's dreams
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  Speaker 2: are wedding dreams. Wedding dreams seem pretty common. I was
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: interested that we got many, many more submissions from women
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: than men, although we did get some dreams from men,
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  Speaker 2: and we will talk about some of those today. But
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: so we're going to talk, first of all, a little
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: bit about the archetype of weddings and what that might mean,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the archetype of marriage, and then Look at how they
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: appear in your dreams. And this is part of our
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: year-long exploration of different dream types, which corresponds with the
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: publication of our book, Dreamwise, Unlocking the Meaning of Your Dreams.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Next month for December, we're going to be looking at
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: children's dreams. So we get lots and lots of those
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: on the podcast, and we usually don't talk about them,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: but we're going to focus on that in December. So
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  Speaker 2: you can go to our website, our book website, which
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  Speaker 2: is dreamwisebook.com. Click on Dreamography and submit your dream, either
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  Speaker 2: a dream that you had in childhood, or if you
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  Speaker 2: have a child who has shared a dream and you
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: feel comfortable sharing that, you can do that as well. So,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: for next month, childhood dreams. For this month, let's progress
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  Speaker 2: and see what we can find out about weddings, the
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  Speaker 2: archetype of the wedding, and how it shows up in dreams.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: So, the first thing I'd like to say in very
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: broad terms is that for Jung, he would often use
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: the term hieroskimos, which is a Greek word for sacred marriage. Also,
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: in the collected works, he would refer to the chemical wedding,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: which is an old medieval way of saying the word chemical.
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  Speaker 3: And it represents a reconciliation of fundamental polarities within the psyche.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: And so as we're talking about dreams, that can look
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: like many, many different things, because there are many polarities
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: inside of us as human beings. But the sacred wedding
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  Speaker 3: is is the bringing together of opposites.
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  Speaker 4: And it's infused with archetypal, spiritual, sacred power. It's more
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  Speaker 4: than just two people. There is the third dimension that
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  Speaker 4: makes it sacred.
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  Speaker 2: And it's a great example, I think, of an archetype
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: because it's something that comes up a lot in films. Oh, my.
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  Speaker 2: It comes up in stories and fairy tales. There's almost
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: always a wedding. Often fairy tales end with a wedding.
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  Speaker 2: And we know, Deb, that the archetypal power that you're
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: referring to, I think we all know that, right? I mean,
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  Speaker 2: it's partly why it's such a mammoth industry, I think,
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  Speaker 2: because when we're getting married and we're planning a wedding,
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  Speaker 2: we have a sense of like, oh, this is it.
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  Speaker 2: And so we're kind of encouraged to maybe part with
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  Speaker 2: more of our hard-earned cash than we really need to.
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  Speaker 2: But when we go to a wedding, whether it's our
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: wedding or a friend's wedding, I mean, there's a reason
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: why you pack tissues. You feel deeply, deeply moved. And
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: you know that something special is going on. And, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I know lots of people. I've known lots of people
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  Speaker 2: through the years who lived together, maybe for years, and
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  Speaker 2: then decided, oh, let's do it. Let's get married. And
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  Speaker 2: if you ask that person, well, does anything feel different?
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  Speaker 2: In my experience, people always say, well, yes, actually it does.
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  Speaker 2: So there's some, something gets constellated. I like your use
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  Speaker 2: of the notion of a third thing, that something happens
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  Speaker 2: in this sacrament that is bigger than us. So we're
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: really tapping into something archetypal.
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  Speaker 4: A third thing gets created, you know, like when you
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: combine chemicals in a vase, and it was substance A
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  Speaker 4: and substance B. But when the new thing comes together,
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  Speaker 4: it's really neither A nor B. It is C. They've combined,
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  Speaker 4: and something new has been created, and it's an indissoluble substance.
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  Speaker 4: kind of union, at least archetypally. And I think that
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: speaks to what you were just saying. And we've all
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  Speaker 4: known people in this day and age who've lived together
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  Speaker 4: for some number of years. And then it's different when
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  Speaker 4: after three years or eight years, they finally get married.
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: We all feel it. And when you attend the ceremony,
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  Speaker 4: there isn't a dry eye. Everyone rises. There is a sacred, archetypal, magical,
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  Speaker 4: mystical feeling to a wedding.
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  Speaker 3: And particularly the ritualization of it. There's just the idea,
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  Speaker 3: but whether it's a ritual that people have created themselves,
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  Speaker 3: or it's an arcane ritual that is maybe a thousand
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  Speaker 3: years old, that the symbolism... of the coming together of
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  Speaker 3: the two to be one is really, really potent.
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  Speaker 2: And it goes to, so what are we talking about psychologically, right?
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  Speaker 2: We're talking about there can be kind of an inner
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  Speaker 2: marriage where there's a union of heretofore kind of competing
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  Speaker 2: or separate aspects of self. So it might, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the inner marriage, you know, you might marry the inner
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: husband if you're a woman, which might mean really embracing
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: and coming to terms with your inner masculine qualities. And
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  Speaker 2: that can feel very fulfilling and rewarding. And also, you know,
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  Speaker 2: on a more mystical level, it's the union between the
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  Speaker 2: earthly and the divine. So in the Christian tradition, it
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  Speaker 2: might be the spiritual marriage with the, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: bridegroom who is Christ, for example. So So we're in
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: the realm of mysticism and also analytical psychology when we're
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: talking about what this looks like on an inner level.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Let's take a look at the first dream because I
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: think it's going to help us see what we're really
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  Speaker 2: talking about here. So this is a dream from a
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  Speaker 2: woman who's currently 61, but she was 42 when she
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  Speaker 2: had this dream. I find myself in an ornate vestibule
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  Speaker 2: of a cathedral. Having come in on one side of it,
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  Speaker 2: I see a bride in a beautiful white gown entering
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  Speaker 2: through the archways on the opposite side. I see a
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  Speaker 2: gorgeous rose window above her, like the one in Notre Dame.
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  Speaker 2: The luminous bride was being led by a huge Great
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  Speaker 2: Dane dog with a gold medallion on a red satin
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: ribbon around its neck. I looked to my right and
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: an orchestra was raising their instruments to begin playing the
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  Speaker 2: wedding march. I could just peek inside the church doors
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  Speaker 2: to my left at all the people inside, turning and
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  Speaker 2: rising to their feet, and the incredible beauty of tall,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: stained-glass windows inside. I did not go in because I
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  Speaker 2: noticed a ladder leaning on the wall and ending in
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  Speaker 2: an opening in the wall far above me. I climbed
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: the ladder and entered a strange room filled with books.
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  Speaker 2: One book stood out. It was on a pedestal and
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: was incredibly large. I went over to it and flipped
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  Speaker 2: through some pages. A voice said over my shoulder that
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: this book contained all the knowledge in all the world,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: but that I had all the knowledge I needed. I
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: notice another opening to the outside with another ladder that
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  Speaker 2: I descend on. Outside the church, I find a large
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  Speaker 2: table filled with all the teachers I have ever known
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  Speaker 2: and will ever know, all having a meal together. A
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  Speaker 2: place is there for me, and I join them in
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  Speaker 2: a wonderful meal. Afterward, none of them speak to me,
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  Speaker 2: even though I'm trying to continue to speak to them,
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  Speaker 2: and they scatter in all directions and on different roads
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  Speaker 2: down the mountain. There is only one road left that
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  Speaker 2: no one takes. and I begin to walk on it
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  Speaker 2: up the mountain. Wow, what a, what a, sort of
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  Speaker 2: have chills. And I'll just point out this, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the dreamer had this dream 40 years ago, and she
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: either wrote it down and remembered it when she heard
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: our call for wedding dreams, or she's just always remembered it.
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  Speaker 2: So this is one of those really big dreams. Here's
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: the context. At the time, I had been studying art,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: history and mythology, and taken up music again, playing guitar
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  Speaker 2: and singing after many years. I was studying painting and
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  Speaker 2: had studied with many wonderful teachers. I was, however, longing
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  Speaker 2: for a mentor and not finding anyone for direction on
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: my next steps. So, the main feelings were a sense
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: of awe, curiosity, and wonder, a feeling of joy, and
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  Speaker 2: also longing. as my teachers were leaving me one by one.
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  Speaker 2: And she notes that weddings give her a sense of
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  Speaker 2: uniting together of various parts of herself. She says, I
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  Speaker 2: found it curious, the gold coin medallion on the Great Dane.
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  Speaker 2: I related to the gold coin given to the ferryman
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  Speaker 2: at the River Styx, the library of knowledge, the meal
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  Speaker 2: with my teachers I relate as a sort of communing with.
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  Speaker 2: And this dreamer works as a visual artist, a curator,
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  Speaker 2: and a musician.
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  Speaker 4: I think we all have, the three of us, and
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  Speaker 4: I hope many people out there, dreams that continue to
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  Speaker 4: stay alive for us. That they are memories of experiences
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  Speaker 4: that we have had that continue to infuse us with
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  Speaker 4: special feeling and a sense of connection.
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  Speaker 2: So, I mean, the symbols in this dream are just
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  Speaker 2: sort of one right after another. So first of all,
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  Speaker 2: there's the symbol of a cathedral, which can be seen
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: as a symbol of the self that obviously references spiritual life.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it's where the holy thing happens. And of course,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: it's usually where weddings take place. Rose windows are mandalas,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: another symbol of the self. And the one in Notre
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Dame is a beautiful example of that. And then we
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: have the woman in her white dress. And we might
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: imagine that this is an aspect of the dreamer who's
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  Speaker 2: ready to kind of engage in the sacred wedding.
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  Speaker 3: The bride who comes without the groom and who is
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: associated with the rose is a very archetypal symbol of
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: the Virgin Mary, which is so woven into the cathedral,
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: into Catholicism particularly. So to me, there is a veneration
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  Speaker 3: of the divine, feminine, pure, unto herself, the bride of God.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: And so she gets a glimpse of that. And then
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: she immediately goes into this world of books, knowledge, teachers,
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: and teaching. So in many of the old monastic traditions
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  Speaker 3: for women and men, whether it's a convent or a monastery,
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  Speaker 3: there is a way in which one would wed the
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: spirit and dedicate one's life to study and solitude and introspection.
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  Speaker 3: And so the wedding here, I think, is being wedded,
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: as you had mentioned earlier in the episode, being wedded
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  Speaker 3: to the self and possibly being wedded to the mission
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: in one's life, which for this person may be a
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: life of knowledge and the acquisition of knowledge, which is
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: a worthy thing to marry if that is true and
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: in one's heart and if that is the object of
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: your love.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Joseph, you have inspired me with that. I just love
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: what you did with that. And you really helped me
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: because I've been thinking, what the heck is that Great Dane?
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: But when you said that about her being the virgin,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: it reminded me of the medieval myth of the unicorn,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: that a unicorn could not be captured except by a virgin,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: and it would come and lay its head in the
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: virgin's lap. So I wonder if our Great Dane is
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: a sort of, I don't know, a little bit like
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: a unicorn who was accompanying the virgin. And I'm sure
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: so much more, too. I mean, right? We could have
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: talked about this dream last month, too, when we had
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: our episode on dog dreams.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: There's also the eighth tarot key called strength. And there
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: is a feminine figure in white who is leaning over
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: a lion, taking its mouth and opening it and, in
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: a sense, subduing it or tethering it to a kind
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: of higher wisdom. So this also captures a bit of
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: that energy that the animal nature, rather than being lost
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: purely in the instinctive world, is in service to the
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: great mission, in service to the self, but in service
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: to the life as the dreamer is destined to lead it,
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: rather than working against her. It's a wonderful, wonderful dream.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Yes. Beautiful dream.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: It'd be interesting to know the arc of her life
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: from the point she had that dream to where she
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: is now.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: I was really wondering about that. It would be, you know,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I'm so sorry we don't have that. You know, the
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: ending too is just so poignant, right? That there's only
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: one road. No one else has taken the road. She
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: has to take her own road. And I think there's a,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: isn't there a great quote from Jung where he says,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: if you're, if you're, if you're, traveling on the path
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: then it's not your journey or something like that it's
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: that's a that's a a poor substitute i think for
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: what he actually said but it's something like you've got
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: to find your own unique journey you can't just follow
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: someone else but the dream the dream makers being very
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: encouraging here.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah and i think i mean it all feels very
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: the theme of having to do it yourself runs through
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: the dream. The dream ego doesn't go and sit down
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: in a pew.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: It's another figure whose wedding it is. You have to
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: climb up a ladder that's for one person. Only one
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: person at a time can do that. And it says,
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: here's the book that contains all the knowledge in the world,
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: but I had all the knowledge I needed. So there's
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: an image there of completeness. You have enough. You have
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: all the knowledge you need. Then she goes outside and
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: sits down with all the teachers that she ever knew
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: or will know and can join them for a meal.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: And it seems like a repetition of that same theme,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: that they go in different directions on different roads down
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: the mountain, There's only one road left, and I begin
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: to walk on it up the mountain. So it's a
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: lovely dream of being part of a lot of these
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: gatherings and ceremonies, but you are good to go. You,
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: you know, no one else can do it for you.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: And the Robert Frost line about, you know, I took
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: the road least traveled by, and that's made all the difference.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: It's a wonderful dream that says, go on your individual
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: journey up the mountain.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And she was 42.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: Yes. And a mountain like pyramids and ziggurats and so on,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: things in mythology, people go up on a mountain in
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: order to connect with the higher power. The spirit, the
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: higher we can go, the closer we are to spirit,
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: symbolically speaking.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: So she's going up the mountain. It's a sacred journey.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: It's a wonderful dream.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: You know, Deb, you also just triggered another realization for me.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: I love what you said about how it's an image
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: of completeness that the book says you have all the
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: knowledge you need. Well, a marriage, a wedding is an
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: image of completeness.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Two things have come together to become one, and there
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: is a sense of completion. That's why the coniunctio, in
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: some sense, was the goal of the work.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: The three stages of the dream also remind me of
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: three ways that we can approach our own psychological process. Wisdom, understanding,
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: and knowledge, which are really quite different. If we remember
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: that Sophia, that name, means wisdom. So if we take
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: the first as the vision of wisdom, the vision of Sophia,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: which is to know what is true. Understanding is to
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: discover the consequences, the logical consequences of what we have
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: discovered is true. And that is the teachers and the
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: books and all of the implications of the truth. And
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: then knowledge has to do with carrying wisdom and understanding
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: into the world, that you have gnosis, or a direct
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: knowing of how that is in the world. And so
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: in the last part of the dream, she's finished with
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: wisdom and understanding, and then she is taking the road
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: to gnosis, which is the direct experience of those earlier
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: two things. And so in that way, it has A
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: very logical sequence of processes.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Well, let's maybe try another dream. This one is from
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: a man who's 54 years old.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: So a 54-year-old male sends him this. In my dream,
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: which is in black and white, I'm standing inside a
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: church very dimly lit that I can hardly see it
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: in its entirety. It is bare of furnishings and feels
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: like several centuries old. Although I do not see them
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: with my own eyes, it feels to me that inside
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: the church, weddings are going on, one after another. In
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: the next scene, I see a beautiful and dusky young
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: woman in a white wedding dress. I recognize her as
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: a classmate studying nursing back in college who I have
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: not seen for nearly 20 years. She opens the church
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: door and walks all by herself towards the inner part
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: of the church. I see no one else inside the church.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: As I watch her make her walk, I start feeling
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: that it is 1969, the year of my birth. At
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: that point, it makes me wonder how it could be
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: possible for me to be in that place and the
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: event at a time when I was just being or
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: about to be born. For context, he writes, I had
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: this dream during the COVID-19 lockdown. It came soon after
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: I turned 50 and was going through a period of
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: uncertainty in my life. The main feelings in the dream
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: were awe at the air of mystery in the church,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: fascination at the wedding ceremonies, curiosity towards the young woman
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: and puzzlement at my being there during the year of
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: my birth. For associations, he says, Union and profound relationship
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: between two individuals. The unique milestone in one's life. A
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: roaming Catholic sacrament and ritual. Celebration. Those are his associations
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: to the term wedding. And his occupation is a teacher.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting because I didn't notice this when I
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: was initially kind of selecting the dreams. But first of all,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: this one, like the last one, starts in a church.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: And we have another solitary woman in the church. Very interesting.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And that the church, it's specified that it's very old
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: or it seems very old. So this is something that's
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: been laid down in the psyche for a long time
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: and a kind of ancestral content harkening back to something
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: in the collective psyche. I mean, one of the things
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: that we might do with a dream image like this,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: I love the idea of a dusky, a beautiful and
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: dusky young woman. I'm not sure exactly. That conjures up
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: a real image for me. But this would be a
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: classic image of the anima that we might imagine. And
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: so in our book, Dreamwise, we have a whole chapter
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: on the anima and the animus. And in fact, we
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: talk a little bit about wedding dreams in the chapter.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And that this is one of the kind of ways
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: that an anima might appear. Someone, you know, not currently
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: in your life who feels compelling and represents this function
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: of the anima, which in a man's psyche is usually
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: pictured as a woman. And part of what that aspect
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: of the psyche does is to connect you with the
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: deep interior so kind of marrying the anima is a
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: real image of um a kind of initiation into your
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: own depths maybe and he is.
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: In the deep interior uh he's in this church that
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: is centuries old How is it possible to have this
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: happen just at the time that he's being born?
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Yes. So interesting.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: You know, it sort of floats time.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: And the.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: Anima image is a classmate studying nursing. So there's an
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: image of his inner other, someone he was connected to,
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: a classmate, who was in a caring profession, a healing profession,
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: and that there is this inner figure. And I agree,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: it's interesting that the bride is alone. And who might
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: be the bridegroom? It's really a very touching, a touching
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: dream of this reconciliation with the inner other.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: And it does hint at birth, doesn't it? And it
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: also makes me think about the way that these sacraments,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: whether it's birth, marriage, or death, kind of can get overlaid.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: There was that movie that came out, Four Weddings and
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: a Funeral, if you remember that a million years ago.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: But there's some kind of conflation, like you said, Deb.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: It sort of just erases time. And he's both being
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: born and he is getting married.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: And that's a rebirth image that you will be, you're different.
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: You're changed.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: After you get married, there is a fundamental... in the
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: psyche from being single, being engaged, to being married.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: So I'd like to take it in an additional direction.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: So the one thing I would say is that Jung
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: was very clear that archetypes activate during times of crises,
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: and particularly when ruling ideas have lost their meaning.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's great.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: So he's in a time where he's turned 50, he's
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: going through a period of uncertainty, and it seems that
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: there's an archetypal activation. And this beautiful woman who has
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: existed from the moment of his birth presents to him.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: And so this, to me, is a vision of his
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: destiny and the goddess Fortuna.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: Hmm.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: To believe that since the moment you were born, that
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: there has been a presence. There has been one waiting
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: for you. Now, we could literally think of this as
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: the anima, the one that's waiting for you, is actually
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: all of the potential that you have yet to live.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: And that's a way that's in a very pragmatic way
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: of thinking of what is waiting for you.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: But also, you were in nursing. school with this person.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: And so I think it is a reaffirmation that becoming
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: a nurse for you earlier in your career was destined
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: for you at the moment of your birth. Now, am
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: I understanding that from the associations?
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know that he was studying nursing. They may
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: have just been in school together and he was studying
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: one thing and she was studying nursing. We don't know
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: He says he's a teacher.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: He is now.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: So one fantasy.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: Is perhaps that has to do with the earlier career.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Perhaps it has to do in general, the idea of
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: destiny and fortune. And the idea that something was set
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: in motion at the moment of your birth, which is
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: alive and well, and can be glimpsed in the barely
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: lit realm of the cathedral, the ancient church. which is
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: really the deep archetypal religious function inside of us. And
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: not religious, meaning organized religion, but a sense of spiritual numinosity.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: And also, at a time you're turning 50, you're not
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: sure what to do with your life, to have a
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: vision that there is something beautiful inside of you that
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: was there since the moment of your birth is a wonderful, inspiring,
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: and encouraging vision.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: That's really lovely, Joseph. I really like that. That's great. Yeah,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: these dreams, most of the wedding dreams that I got
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: or that we got as submissions were very inspiring and
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: kind of beautiful and a little mysterious. But let's look
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: at one that wasn't so happy. It's a 26-year-old woman
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: and here's the dream. Coincidentally, I saw this post, I
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: think meaning our social media post asking for wedding dreams.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Last night, I had a dream my husband was going
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: off to marry another woman, and she was just like
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: my father's mistress in real life. He was leaving me.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: I felt so much pain in my body when I
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: woke up, and I cried, too. And I am emotionally
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: preparing because I believe this might happen, as so many
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: of my dreams do. For context, she says, I feel
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: distant and that my husband is annoyed at me. So
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I think that's the waking life context. The main feelings
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: in the dream were pain in my body. In the dream,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I fall to the floor and I cry so painfully.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: And her associations were he was getting married and planning
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: his wedding. And she works as a vendor. So this
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: is a very poignant dream. And I'm just noticing how
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: many times the word pain appears. appears in the entry,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: in the associations, and in the dream itself. So the
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: person's in a lot of pain. And we might, for example, imagine,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, this dream brings up, especially because she says
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: she's worried it might happen and she's feeling very removed,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: it brings up another concept that we work with in
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: DreamWise about the subjective, interpretation of a dream and an
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: objective meaning of a dream. So is the dream commenting
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: on the inner world or the outer world? And of course,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: sometimes it's both. Most of the time, we say that
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: dreams are commenting on the inner world, but they sometimes
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: do comment on the outer world.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: So what occurs to me is a really profound and
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: important stage in a marriage. But when we first often meet,
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: often work much younger, maybe in our 20s, that the
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: inner potential, which we call anima animus, is projected onto
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: the spouse, which lends them a kind of fascination. Now,
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: the other person probably does have many of those qualities,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: which are latent in ourselves. And so it is useful
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: and beneficial and in service to our growth to be
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: fascinated by someone who is evidencing qualities and traits that
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: we are destined to know more about. And in fact,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: we often do by virtue of being with our spouses.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: Later in life, after the marriage is ripened, those experiences
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: have been integrated. And then there is an internal discovery
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: of the inner partner, Every man discovers that he has
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: an inner wife. Every woman discovers that she has an
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: inner husband. And when these dreams begin to surface, often
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: the ego is in a lot of conflict. The anima
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: comes to a man in the dream and offers to
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: be his partner, and the man will reject him, saying, No,
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: I'm already married. I don't want to hurt my wife.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: I'm not interested. But in the inner world, The man
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: needs to consent to have the metaphoric second wife in
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: the same way that a woman in the inner world
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: needs to consent to have the inner spiritual husband. When
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: this actually happens in a marriage, the spouse can really
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: feel it, can feel that a number of the projections
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: that used to fuel the marriage have actually been withdrawn
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: and there is an internal image that is deeply interesting
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: to the spouse. Another way of saying it is that
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: the spouse becomes more interested in their self-development and a
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: little bit less or a lot less interested in the
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: romance that is generated by the projection. This happens to
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: men and women and we call it a midlife crisis,
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: by the way. if we understood it correctly, we would
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: understand that it is time to prioritize the inner marriage
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: and the inner spouse. And I have a feeling that
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: might be happening, and that she's really, really feeling the
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: change in the relationship, and for lack of understanding it
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: in that psycho-spiritual way, could find it really threatening initially.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: I think I'm seeing it, you're seeing it very much
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: from a subjective, or internal world point of view, but
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: I'm very willing to consider it from the objective or
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: external world relational point of view. She's only 26, so
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: it'd be a little young for her to be meeting
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: her inner other, although of course that happens, not on
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: any strict timetable. But I'm thinking about the unresolved lingering
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: reverberations and repercussions of a family trauma of what happens
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: when your father goes off and abandons your mother in
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: order to marry somebody else. That the father has had
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: a mistress who he then marries. And so that threatens,
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: in a way, the archetype itself of the marriage, of
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: your loyalty bonded to one person versus there was somebody
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: else on the side who eventually became the new partner.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: And that this has led to her own insecurity, perhaps,
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: in her own marriage, that could this happen to me too?
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: And she says, I feel distant and that my husband
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: is annoyed with me. I'm kind of looking at it
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: from the point of view of her relational history with
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: her father and the current state of her relationship with
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: her husband.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: What I love about what you guys have just done
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: is given this like masterful explanation of what this could
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: look like if it were subjective and masterful explanation of
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: what it could look like if it were objective. And
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: of course, both might be true.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: I do want to jump in that I was actually
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: interpreting it as subjective because I think the dream maker
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: was giving her information about her external husband, not about her.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: That's true.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: And sometimes the unconscious is very aware of other people's
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: level of development and what's going on. So I think
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Deb and I are on the same page, that the
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: dream does seem curious about the husband. Deb thinking about
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: this from a traumatogenic standpoint, and I from having insights
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: about how our partners grow and develop.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: But yeah, and yeah, thank you, Joseph. That's a good clarification.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: These ideas are so subtle. I know. But I do
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: want to say, though, that, you know, sometimes dreams can
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: be very.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Kind of blunt and reality-oriented. And I have a friend
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: who was married, and when his partner would, you know,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: kind of begin to stray, he would always have a
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: dream that tipped him off, you know? And so there
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: can be a way where sometimes the unconscious is picking
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: up on something that's actually happening in the outer world.
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: And, you know, she says that many of her dreams
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: do come to pass. And it is possible, not that
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: the dream is precognitive, but that the dream is underlying, underlining,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: excuse me, something she already knows, which is that there's
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: a drift in her marriage. But it may be saying,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: and there's even some part of it you haven't attended
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: to or that you're not quite seeing. We don't know.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: It could be more about what's going on in the
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: partner's inner life, like you said, Joseph, or it could
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: be more kind of factual that perhaps the partner is
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: beginning to pursue another relationship. But I think I think
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: where this is a dream that is about the inner
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: world and the inner world of the dreamer is we
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: would wonder about the quality of her animus. Because as
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: you said, Deb, we know that there's kind of been
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: a family trauma. You know, the animus of a woman
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: is often really influenced by her relationship with her father.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: We can have an imagination about how it might be
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: affected by a father who goes off and has an affair.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Oftentimes daughters really sort of, um, align with the experience
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: of their mother and really identify with that and feel
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: really hurt and devastated when a father leaves the family.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: And that may be kind of the way things feel
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: in the inner world, too. is that she doesn't have
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: good access to this animus energy. So, you know, in
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: our book, Dreamwise, we talk about what might the positive
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: animus look like in the dreams that women have, and
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: what might the negative animus look like. And I think
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: this is a dream of the negative animus, We also
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: talk about, you know, for men, what the dreams look like,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: the positive anima and the negative anima. So all of
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: that is in our anima animus chapter in DreamWise. But
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: this is a good example, I think, of a negative
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: animus dream.
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: So time to move on to another dream. This is
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: entry 668 for you guys. Our dreamer is a woman.
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: She's 45 years old. and she is a web designer,
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: and here's the dream. I've been invited to Kate Middleton's wedding,
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: and I'm waiting for her to arrive with a crowd
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: of guests. We're waiting in a desert landscape. Someone in
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: the crowd sees her in the distance, and everyone starts cheering.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: We are all happy and excited. Then I see a
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: big four-story house, but it's only a facade like a
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: theater prop. It is decorated with street art and graffiti.
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: On each level is a long balcony filled with bridesmaids.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: They're not wearing traditional bridesmaids' dresses, but rather dark blue
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: outfits trimmed with white, a cross between a school uniform
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: and a Middle Eastern men's robe. I think approvingly of
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: how creative and different Kate has made this ceremony. and
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: how she has rejected some of the boring sexist norms
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: of a wedding. I decide to say loudly, wow, she
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: has so many friends, I couldn't fill even one level
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: of this house. The crowd laughs approvingly, but I feel
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: a little ashamed and wonder if they actually feel sorry
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: for me. Then I notice that there's a large graffiti
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: saying Saudi Airy Iran, which makes me feel uneasy. For context,
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: she says, the day before this dream, I had a
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: psychological breakthrough where I realized I'd been defensive my whole
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: life and hadn't committed properly to many things. I felt
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: energized and ready to be different. The main feelings in
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: the dream, she says, And for additional context, she says,
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: Kate Middleton, my mother has always been unhealthily obsessed with
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: the British royal family. My mother was neglectful and cruel
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: to me and my brother as kids. She follows the
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: royals every move and passes unkind judgments on them, although
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: she approves of Kate. Partly in reaction, I've always held
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: the position that the royal family is a terrible anti-democratic institution. However,
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: I think Kate is beautiful and admire the way she
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: does a hard job. The balcony, she says, a big
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: royal symbol, but it's been messed with in the dream
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: so it's long and crowded and has only a facade
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: behind it. Of the gowns, she says, I wore a
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: school uniform as a high schooler that was dark blue
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: and white. I loved my school and liked the uniform.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: As for Saudi Arran, hard word to make out, Arran,
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: I think this made me realize that the wedding was
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: in the Middle East and that this could be dangerous.
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: I've traveled for work to Saudi and found it scary
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: and weird but fascinating. I'm deeply anxious about the conflict
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: in the Middle East and distressed by anti-Semitism at home.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, it's interesting that here we have a
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: royal wedding, which is what often happens in fairy tales, too.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is a complex dream, and I think
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: it's obviously touching on some complex dynamics in the dreamer's life.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: But I wanted to say two things about it as
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: sort of opening salvos. One is, you know, she mentions
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: that she realizes she's not properly committed to many things,
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: and so... in that sense, the image of a wedding
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: is very important because one of the key things about
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: a wedding is that it's a commitment. It's a, it's
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: a deep psycho-spiritual legal, you know, if you think about
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: actual weddings, it's legal, it's financial, it is, um, it's,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: it's a commitment, uh, a profound import of every, in
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: every dimension in our culture. Um, And also she had
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: this psychological breakthrough and she was feeling energized. And then
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: she has this dream, which is very often what dreams do.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: You know, we talk about in the book, we talk
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: about how dreams are compensatory. And so she's, you know,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: consciously she's feeling kind of elated and she just had
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: this big breakthrough. And then the dream just has a
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: slightly more somber tone. and brings in this nagging anxiety.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: So that feels just right. That feels just like what
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: our dream maker would do is sort of always bringing in,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: what about the other side of this?
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: What I am paying the most attention to is the
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: image of Kate Middleton and that this is a royal wedding.
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: On the other hand, the wedding is taking place in
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: a desert which is a place that is not very fertile.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: And this big four-story house is only a facade. And
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: it is decorated with street art and graffiti, which is
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: not the same kind of decoration that one would usually
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: have at a wedding. So there are so many people
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: here that are wearing different kinds of clothes. And that's
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: kind of nice, and Kate has made it different and
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: has flouted some of the norms of the wedding. But
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: I'm just paying attention to that aside from her comment of,
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: is it a royal wedding? Is it a facade? Is
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: she demonstrating her own individuality in having this unique kind
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: of wedding? Or does this mark that this is not
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: quite a genuine wedding? So I think this is a
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: dream about a lot of ambivalence that is being mirrored
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: with a scene in the dream, in the dreamer, around
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: commitment and having to comply versus rebel and what exactly
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: is going on.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: I think the.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: Similar to you, Deb, I'm finding myself indexing on her
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: ambivalent relationship with her mom and the mother being neglectful
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: and cruel, and yet the mother somewhat idealizing Kate Middleton
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: and particularly being contemptuous towards other aspects of the royal family.
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: So there's something about when the dreamer says, I think
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: approvingly of how creative and different Kate has made the
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: ceremony and how she has rejected some of the boring
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: sexist norms of a wedding. And it makes me wonder
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: if that is an intrusion from the negative mother complex
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: and that the facade may very well be the way
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: that her psyche has to mask her legitimate interest in
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: the wedding symbolism from the negative mother inside her. The
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: dream maker wants her to consider the symbolism or perhaps
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: even the reality of a wedding. The inner mother is
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: very negative about what she finds interesting, doesn't provide a
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: lot of support for what pleases her. So she's going
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: to make a wedding look like some kind of a
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: theater pop event with graffiti and other kinds of masks.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: and misdirections. But hopefully, despite all of the costuming, she'll
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: find that she can actually entertain this idea of at
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: least the inner marriage. We have another example. I think,
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: intrusion of anxiety around the Saudi Arabia, because for her, again,
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: that feels like a very frightening association. And I think
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: this is, again, this sense of danger that if I
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: were to approach my own interest in wedding, or even
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: the archetype of the wedding, that something bad is going
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: to happen. But I think it's still... surfaces because of
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: her associations around the negative experience with her own mother?
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: And how does she set that aside to decide what's
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: important to her without being affected by those memories or
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: whether or not she pleases her own mother?
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: You know, there's something about that image of the facade
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: that's filled with people. And Joseph, I like what you
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: said about it. For me, what comes up is this
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: image of kind of like the manic defense. Like it's
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: this big facade and there are these big balconies and
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: it's filled with people, but there's nothing behind it. So
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: often what's underneath a manic defense, what a manic defense
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: is covering up is feelings of smallness, shame, insecurity. And
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: in fact, she makes this statement and then she feels
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: that people are feeling sorry for her. She feels ashamed.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: So I think there's probably shame here too, which we
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: can understand given what we know about her biography. And
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: the Saudi stuff, you know, it's interesting because I was
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: I wish we knew a little bit more about what
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: was scary and weird and fascinating about it for her.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: But I can imagine that I really don't know much
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: about Saudi Arabia. I've never been there. But of course,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: women are treated very differently in that society. And I wonder,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: you know, it's very, very rigid and oppressive. And she's also,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: of course, really anxious about the conflict. I thought that
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: was interesting. She's anxious about the conflict. So it's possible
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: that having had this revelation about her need to be
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: more committed, what comes on the heels of that is
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: an awareness of, um, of ways that commitments may require
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: her to face things that are shameful, to face her
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: weaknesses and to come into conflict. So that, that really
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: deciding to, uh, change her ways and become more committed
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: is going to ask a lot of her, I think.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking about all the images in the dream and
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: in the context about this incredible ambivalence about attachment and
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: commitment that builds on what you were saying, Joseph, about
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: the relationship with the mother. If your primary attachment figure
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: has not been safe, it's very, very difficult to commit
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: to other things and other people. And here's the wavering.
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: The mom disparages the royal family. And our dreamer says
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: that the royal family is a terrible anti-democratic institution. However,
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: I think Kate is beautiful. And I admire the way
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: she does a hard job.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: Me too. I'm a Kate fan.
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: And that is a both and.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's great.
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: Of, yes, you can be in the royal family. You
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: don't have to have a facade. You don't have to
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: have graffiti at your wedding. And neither do you exactly
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: have to conform. And Kate Middleton has carved her own path.
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: So I think there might be something in that image
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: for our dreamer to consider as symbolic of the both-and.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Well, and that's great, Deb. And weddings are the both-and, right?
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: They are the kunyuntio, the coming together. And so I
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: think that's perfect, that the framing of the dream is
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: that it is Kate Middleton's wedding.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: I think there's also an important pivoting moment in the
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: dream where You've been invited to Kate Middleton's wedding, which,
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: by the way, is not something that most people get
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: invited to.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: That you're special. And you have some relationship.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love that.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: To her at the event. And that when Kate is glimpsed,
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: that the entire psyche starts cheering. They're happy and excited.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: So we have a real... feeling about how the larger
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: psyche feels about the bride. And after there is all
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: of this cheering and excitement, then things become more and
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: more problematic. And what that shows us is how difficult
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: it is in general for her to be happy and
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: excited and for the complexes in the psyche to tolerate that.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: And which goes back to what you were saying, Deb,
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: about having a very ambivalent experience of our primary caregivers.
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: So happy and excited. Then there's facades and theaters and bridesmaids,
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: but they're disguised in uniforms, you know, blue things with
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: white piping. Certain convent orders wear that. Certain police officers
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: wear it. Certain airline stewardesses wear it. But it is
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: kind of a disguise that way. she's able to hang
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: on to a little bit of positive feeling about Kate secretly.
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: And then she has to use this self-denigrating humor. That's
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: the thing I'd love to lean into if she were
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: my analysis. What's happening? And I think there's a problem
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: here that I think approvingly about how creative and different
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: Kate is. And then This attitude of the mother comes in,
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: which is rather critical and is worried about sexist norms.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: And then once those two things come together in the psyche,
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: then there is something self-denigrating that pops out of the
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: psyche as a reaction to those two things. So, here
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: we have a little kid who's really excited about something.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: The parent comes. and says something that's rejecting and critical
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: about it, then the kid learns how to make a
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: self-deprecating joke to back out of the tension with the
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: critical factor in the family. It's a survival technique. It's
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: not a humor. It's a very effective way to manage
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: all of that. But there's this feeling of a little
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: bit of shame as if they feel sorry for her,
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: but I think it's also about self-betrayal. It was hard
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: for the ego to just hold on to. I like her.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: I'm cheering when she shows up. Do I really have
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: to put on a facade? Do I really have to
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: tolerate the critical mother inside of myself? Do I have
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: to hide from that? Or can I fight for whatever
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: my authentic attitude is? And saying things that make people
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: feel sorry for her which is a realization that I
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: think is happening in the end of the dream, to
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: be able to go, do I do that a lot?
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: And do I do that a lot in order to
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: resolve a kind of tension? And then I feel a
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: little uneasy about that. And the quote-unquote Saudi Arabian or
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: the fear of the oppressive energy, again, it's, I think,
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: the oppression of the parental complexes. It's a good dream.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: She's fighting for something that's important to her, and her
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: psyche is cheering her on.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I think you just landed it. I think that's a
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: slam dunk.
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: And here's our final dream. A 57-year-old male has this dream.
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: Got a ticket to go to a wedding. It's a flight.
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: But the wedding is very soon, in an hour or so,
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: and I've not even got on the flight. I'm trying
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: to get to the airport on a road whose lanes,
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: on one of them at least, turns into a waterway.
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: I think one goes to a boat, and the other
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: lane goes to an airport. Then, I'm waiting somewhere, possibly
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: at the airport foyer, and there are other people there
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: who are going to the wedding. I seem not to
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: be well regarded. and I seem to be regarded as
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: strong and uncompromising, and also dangerous in a physical sense.
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: A woman there has a go at me for flashing
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: my money about. I tell her that I think if
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: I have enough, then I should be able to give
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: it to other people. I look at my ticket, which
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: is like a small booklet comprised of scratch games to
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: win prizes. I can't see any details of the flight
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: or how to get the flight. The person who got
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: me the ticket should have explained it. For context, he writes,
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: I'm buying a house with my wife. We have previously
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: had one apartment each, but we are selling both. In
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: the dream, he feels confused. His associations to weddings are
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: that I quite often buy scratch cards in the hope
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: of winning big. I like weddings, but secretly feel that
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: they are unnecessary, and he works as a psychotherapist.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: You know, in a way, this reminds me of this
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: other category of dream that we talk about in DreamWise
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: that we call chain reaction dreams, right? It's just sort of,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: the structure is a little chaotic. It's just sort of
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: one thing leads to the other, but there's kind of
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: no resolution a little bit. It's interesting because in a way,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: this reminds me of the last dream in that, you know,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: you guys both really got that the Kate Middleton dream
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: was sort of like about ambivalence. Which, of course, is
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: in contrast to the image of a wedding, which is
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: about commitment. But there seems to be a lot of
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: ambivalence in this dream, too. And the dreamer says, I
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: like weddings, but I also kind of secretly think they're unnecessary.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: So he's even consciously ambivalent about weddings. I wonder if
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: he's ambivalent about buying this house.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: There is a kind of disjointed quality about this dream
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: that puts it for me in that category of sort
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: of like a pinball that's ricocheting around. And so I'm
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: just tracking what is it. He's going to go to
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: a wedding, but he hasn't gotten on the flight, turns
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: into a waterway. One goes to a boat and the
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: other goes to the airport. A lot of people there.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: And then I seem not to be well regarded. He
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: seems to be regarded as strong and uncompromising and dangerous.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: So it's a kind of menacing quality. And then it
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: flips over to the opposite, that a woman has a
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: go at me for flashing money about I think if
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: I have enough, I should be able to give it
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: to other people. So I'm kind of landing on this
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: inner ambivalence of that part of him is coming across
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: in his persona aspect as strong, uncompromising, and a bit,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: I would say, menacing. And another part is I am
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: flashing what I have to give around. And I want
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: to give it to other people. And then there is
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: this resolution, which is just a total non sequitur, the
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 4: small booklet of scratch games to win prizes. I'm back
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: on what you said about, I wonder if there's a
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: lot of ambivalence about buying a house. Each of them
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 4: has had their own apartment. And now they're going to
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: live together and, in a sense, take flight. We're going
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: to fly off together. We're going to.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: I think even the first sentence, Joseph, I know you
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: like to really look at the language. I've got to
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: take a ticket to go to a wedding. It's a flight.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: It's a flight from what? That's great. There it is.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: That's the pun.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: It looks like.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: You mean an airplane flight to go towards something? Oh, no,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: says Psyche. It might also be a flight from something.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: You know, speaking of language, I want to just pick
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: up on something else that I find curious about this stream.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: He says, I seem to be regarded as strong and uncompromising, right?
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: And this is in the context of being not well regarded.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: But strong and uncompromising can be very good qualities, right?
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: And what I kind of make up about this, and
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: I'm really having a bit of a fantasy about it,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: but being strong, uncompromising, and let's say like physically competent,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: you know, this is dangerous in a physical sense. So,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe kind of big and strong and uncompromising
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: are qualities that we typically associate with the masculine quality.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: And this man works as a psychotherapist. And as we've
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: discussed before on the podcast, I think the three of
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: us are in some degree of agreement that there's sort
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: of a way that masculinity can kind of get a
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: bad rap in our culture. And I think especially if
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: you're a man who works in a caring, healing profession,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: you may have an ambivalent relationship with your masculinity. So
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: in the dream, we have someone who is strong, uncompromising,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: And has so much money, has so much kind of
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: psychic energy, so much psychic wealth, that he wants to
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: be able to give it to other people. And this
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: is all badly regarded. So I think it's like the
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: ego is worried that he's being poorly regarded. But there's
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: really no evidence that he's a problem. All he's doing
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: is being strong and compromising and giving away money. None
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: of those things are a problem, actually.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: His actions in the dream are very opaque. He's definitely
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: tracking what other people appear to be thinking or feeling
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: about him. But his own behavior is a little unclear.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: He doesn't really describe himself. He doesn't say that I
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: got into a car. Or I got into a boat
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: and the boat was like this. And then I walked
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: down the, through the airport.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: He's not really in it very much.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very hard to tell where he is. But
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: the thing for some reason I'm indexing on is just
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: the first and the last sentence of the dream. Got
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: a ticket to go to a wedding. The person who
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: got me the ticket should have explained it. So one
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: thing I'm left with is this feeling of powerlessness and passivity.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: Somehow we don't know what's driving him to attend the wedding,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: but someone else is making a bunch of choices. And
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: whoever got the ticket didn't provide instructions. It may not be,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: is it on a boat? Is it on a car?
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: Is it on a plane? Is there a gate? What
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: time is it supposed to be? someone else is put
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: in charge of whatever this process is to get him
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: from one place to another. That one thing I would
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: say is that it does remind me a little bit
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: of buying and selling property, which is like unbelievably complicated
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: and you need like teams of people passing you these
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: inscrutable documents that very few of us even read fully
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: because it's overwhelming to look at a 25-page small print
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: document so all of a sudden there's a lot of
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: things going on it's hard to track there's a lot
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: of trust that we have to give to the bureaucratic
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: system that we're being guided by people that know what
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: the hell they're talking about this idea of lashing money
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: they're selling to apartments and then they're going to buy
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: something else there's something about status yeah You know, maybe
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: you'll sell those two apartments, get something that's a lot fancier,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: carries a higher status, a little bit like you're flashing
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: some cash and there's worry about what are people going
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: to think of us if we move into the fancier lifestyle.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: I think his anxiety may manifest as being rather precise,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: even perfectionistic, strong and uncompromising. There's a little heat in it,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: you know, And as a psychotherapist, you're trained to put
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: all that stuff under the ground. You're not supposed to
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: ever look uncompromising or aggressive or assertive. So all that
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: stuff is now sometimes necessary when you're making what for
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: many people is the largest transaction of your lifetime. This
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: is the largest asset you'll ever be moving around. And
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: I think the idea of the airport road becomes a
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: waterway and it's a boat and it might be a
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: plane and then it's a car reminds me of James Bond.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: You know, I want to say, right. So the other
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: thing that really strikes me about this dream is the
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: scratch off and that he wants to win it big,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: which says there's something about oh, I don't know, what
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: is that? But it's the tendency to maybe live in
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: fantasy a bit, something like that.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: And how that can prop us up. In fact, when
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: I was in social work school, there was a great
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: lamentation that people in lower socioeconomic strata were spending a
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: lot of money getting lotto tickets because it was so
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: exciting to even imagine for a week or a couple
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: of weeks that we're going to win it big. And
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: that has to go with arousal dopamine. One of the
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: things that dopamine does is when it kicks off, that
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: we have this really strong amount of energy to go
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: for it, go for the thing, go ahead. And we
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: can become a little addicted to the striving dopamine. And
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: there's a big difference between the wanting and then the
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: liking when you get it. Two very different things.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: And also, you may not get it. So there's something
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: here about the way that the fantasy can take you
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: away from what's right in front of you, too. So
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: I wonder about that. So for next month, please do
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: come over to our book website, which is dreamwisebook.com. Click
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: on Dreamography, and there'll be a form there where you
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: can submit either a dream from your childhood or perhaps
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: even a child's dream if you have a child in
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: your life. And we'll be talking about children's dreams. Thanks
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: or join our mailing list, visit our website, thisunionlife.com. If
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode, give us five stars and a
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: good review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get
• 1:10:40
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• 1:10:44
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• 1:10:47
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• 1:10:51
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