Latest / California Frontier / 058: California's Untold Maritime History (Part 2) with author Eric Plunkett

Transcript

058: California's Untold Maritime History (Part 2) with author Eric Plunkett · California Frontier

• 0:00
  San Agustin, which is his ship, we don't know why, but it runs aground in Drake's Bay.
• 0:06
  1595, it's California's first shipwreck.
• 0:10
  We know it's still there, and, um, there are artifacts of the ship that have at times been collected by, um, park service there off of Point Reyes.
• 0:19
  So they end up constructing a, a boat.
• 0:22
  Uh, they actually have a launch, I think, and I think that they kind of add to it.
• 0:26
  I think it's 70 guys and their dogs and it's an open top boat and they take that thing out of Drake's Bay and they go all the way down the coast of California.
• 0:40
  Welcome to California Frontier, the show about the often overlooked and unexpected early history of the place we call California.
• 0:49
  I'm your host, Damian Basich.
• 0:57
  Eric Plunkett: So, yeah, so it's an amazing story.
• 0:59
  Eric Plunkett: So you have, and then Drake's here, you know, English.
• 1:02
  Eric Plunkett: Now you get into the 1580s and now you start to have kind of Spain starts to go.
• 1:07
  Eric Plunkett: Okay.
• 1:09
  Eric Plunkett: We got to make sure that these manila galleons are safe, right?
• 1:12
  Eric Plunkett: On their way back.
• 1:12
  Eric Plunkett: They lost to San Juanillo in 1578.
• 1:14
  Eric Plunkett: You know, there's a lot of money.
• 1:16
  Eric Plunkett: There are a lot of investors in this whole thing.
• 1:18
  Eric Plunkett: And, um, and so it gets the viceroy's attention and he, you know, organizes in 1583, 1584, 1585, these kinds of, hey, manila galleons, when you're on your way back.
• 1:30
  Eric Plunkett: You know, can you do a little exploration of California and see if there's any place where you could, you know, maybe go there?
• 1:36
  Eric Plunkett: We think in about 1583 Cape Mendocino may get named, um, and then in 1584, Gali, it comes, you know, he is, his, his ship passes down the coast of California and he's kind of writing about it.
• 1:49
  Eric Plunkett: Finally, a major, Uh, expedition is kind of not major, but, but, you know, officially sanctioned expedition.
• 1:56
  Eric Plunkett: They, uh, the viceroy tells Gali, you're going to stop in California, preferably if you can get north of the, of Cape Mendocino and explore it.
• 2:04
  Eric Plunkett: But, uh, you're going to explore California looking for a place where these galleons can stop.
• 2:10
  Eric Plunkett: And so in 1587, uh, when Gali's supposed to go, he dies in the Philippines, actually, the year before, I think.
• 2:17
  Eric Plunkett: Uh, and in his place goes a man named Pedro Unamuno.
• 2:21
  Eric Plunkett: So in 1587, Pedro Unamuno, uh, takes his, his ship, his galleon, uh, back from Asia and they get to the California coast.
• 2:30
  Eric Plunkett: And based on what we can figure out from the, the description of where he goes, he seems to be at about Morro Bay.
• 2:38
  Eric Plunkett: And when they get to about Morro Bay, maybe south of there, San Simeon, those areas, um, he seems to, he actually does a overland incursion into California.
• 2:49
  Eric Plunkett: And they go for two days, like there's two days that they go inland, quite some distance.
• 2:55
  Eric Plunkett: There's some speculation it's Chorro Creek.
• 2:57
  Eric Plunkett: Which is near, you know, coming up near like towards San Luis Obispo.
• 3:01
  Eric Plunkett: Um, and you know, they're describing the trees and there's some pines and, uh, uh, you know, they're describing the, the, the, the people who are living there, you know, it's like these Northern Chumash kind of seems like villages, but it's hard say, but, um, they go inland and they, you know, for the most part, they're not meeting anybody.
• 3:19
  Eric Plunkett: They, they see all that there are people who live there and, you know, on the second day, they're coming out and their rear guard, it's an amazing story.
• 3:26
  Eric Plunkett: The, the journal says the, one of the Spaniards, um, and the rear guard took off his chainmail.
• 3:34
  Eric Plunkett: So you have to think of this as like, whoa, 16th century, right?
• 3:39
  Eric Plunkett: I mean, this is, this is like Renaissance, right?
• 3:42
  Eric Plunkett: Almost, right?
• 3:43
  Eric Plunkett: Like it, that's really kind of the vibe.
• 3:44
  Eric Plunkett: He took off his chainmail and then they got attacked.
• 3:48
  Eric Plunkett: Uh, his name was Felipe de Contreras, and he gets hit with a javelin through the breast, and he dies, and he becomes the very first, um, you know, Spaniard or person of European descent, you know, killed in a conflict with the people who live in California.
• 4:03
  Eric Plunkett: And for the people who are living here, right, this must be, you know, Just absolutely, you know, crazy that you have these guys kind of coming into your lands.
• 4:11
  Eric Plunkett: Some of them get killed in this conflict.
• 4:14
  Eric Plunkett: And so this is the first armed conflict that we know of between the Spanish and the people who live
• 4:19
  Damian Bacich: but
• 4:21
  Eric Plunkett: So yeah, that, this is in 1587.
• 4:24
  Eric Plunkett: They do get back to the ship.
• 4:25
  Eric Plunkett: Um, there was a couple other things that end up happening.
• 4:28
  Eric Plunkett: It's a very fascinating story, but at that point, uh, Una Muno decides that it's time to get out of there.
• 4:35
  Eric Plunkett: And he tries to explore the rest of California going south, but it's so cloudy.
• 4:39
  Eric Plunkett: He can't see anything.
• 4:40
  Eric Plunkett: There's just so many fogs that, uh, he doesn't, he's not able to do much.
• 4:44
  Eric Plunkett: And so he ends up kind of just hightailing it back to
• 4:48
  Damian Bacich: now wasn't,
• 4:49
  Eric Plunkett: but
• 4:49
  Damian Bacich: wasn't Cabrillo though involved in some conflict?
• 4:52
  Damian Bacich: Um, I mean, isn't that part of how he, he wound up dying?
• 4:58
  Damian Bacich: I mean, I, I know that he, he got off his ship and evidently he hurt his leg and then I guess it was infected, got gangrene.
• 5:06
  Damian Bacich: So weren't there some, um, violent interactions on the Cabrillo trip?
• 5:12
  Damian Bacich: I don't know.
• 5:13
  Eric Plunkett: You are so right and I should have, I should have mentioned that they, I'm thinking of the Cabrillo, uh, example, which probably happens on San Miguel Island.
• 5:24
  Eric Plunkett: Um, I was thinking it from the perspective that he shatters either his knee or his arm and then he gets, it gets becomes gangrenous and then he, he dies.
• 5:33
  Eric Plunkett: It's unclear from what I remember from that summary of the journal whether or not there is anyone is killed in those conflicts.
• 5:42
  Eric Plunkett: You may have a better memory than I do, but I don't seem to remember if they report that.
• 5:46
  Eric Plunkett: It doesn't mean it didn't happen and it may have.
• 5:49
  Eric Plunkett: I just I'm just not remembering correctly.
• 5:52
  Damian Bacich: Right, you're right.
• 5:53
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, I didn't know whether anybody was killed.
• 5:55
  Damian Bacich: That's true.
• 5:59
  Eric Plunkett: and it's probably, it's a small distinction because, you know, you have a situation that is really, I mean, it's pretty intense.
• 6:06
  Eric Plunkett: You have very different peoples coming into contact with one another.
• 6:10
  Eric Plunkett: And so, you know, it's not surprising that it becomes contentious, especially since the Spanish are coming into the homeland of the people living here, going like, hey, who are you guys?
• 6:21
  Eric Plunkett: Um, and, And from a very early time period, what the way that things worked was that the people who lived here were like, it's like, it's our house.
• 6:29
  Eric Plunkett: If you come and you participate in reciprocal exchange with us, then it will be fine.
• 6:35
  Eric Plunkett: But if you're just going to come in and you're just going to walk through our territory and you're not going to make any.
• 6:41
  Eric Plunkett: Ovation to, to acknowledge that we're here.
• 6:44
  Eric Plunkett: Uh, that's different.
• 6:45
  Eric Plunkett: And I think in the case of Pedro Unamuno, it seems that that's kind of what happened.
• 6:49
  Eric Plunkett: They just kind of went inland and it was, it was, you know, from the people who was living, were living there's perspective, it was like, who is this guy and what are his intentions?
• 6:59
  Damian Bacich: No, and he was
• 7:00
  Eric Plunkett: But yeah, you're, you're,
• 7:01
  Damian Bacich: they're wearing chain mail, I mean They clearly came in as an armed party.
• 7:07
  Damian Bacich: So I think in most, in most societies, right, travelers, especially in small numbers are usually welcome, uh, with hospitality, but armed groups are usually dealt with with a lot more suspicion, right?
• 7:26
  Eric Plunkett: Absolutely.
• 7:26
  Eric Plunkett: It's the same everywhere, right?
• 7:28
  Eric Plunkett: Um, I love that we had Jeremy Beer on here.
• 7:30
  Eric Plunkett: You guys are having a similar discussion, which is there's something to be said, even though cultures are all individual and distinct, there's something that's to be said about common humanity and you, you know, Any of us would feel the same way if you had armed individuals marching through our streets.
• 7:46
  Eric Plunkett: It'd be tough to keep things calm, right?
• 7:48
  Eric Plunkett: And that was what was happening.
• 7:50
  Eric Plunkett: So yeah, they had chain mail and they had their arquebusiers, right?
• 7:52
  Eric Plunkett: They were, you know, firearms and, um, you know, and they, they used those firearms.
• 7:58
  Eric Plunkett: And so you can imagine how this felt being, you know, here in your home and having these guys come in.
• 8:05
  Eric Plunkett: So, um, yeah, that, that was a, it's an amazing story and it's another one that doesn't get a lot of attention, but the same year in 1587, uh, the British send a, uh, you know, another one of these privateers because they're still at war with England, right?
• 8:21
  Eric Plunkett: This is before the Spanish Armada, all that stuff.
• 8:24
  Eric Plunkett: Um, same, same conflict, uh, that, uh, Thomas Cavendish, who's sent by England, he is aware that these manila galleons are sailing.
• 8:34
  Eric Plunkett: And so in 1587, the same year that Unamunos going into the interior of California near Morro Bay, one of the these manila galleons gets taken off of Cabo San Lucas.
• 8:47
  Eric Plunkett: You know, Cavendish is actually there.
• 8:50
  Eric Plunkett: Uh, he's at Cabo San Lucas.
• 8:51
  Eric Plunkett: What is today Cabo San Lucas, the Bay of San Bernabeu.
• 8:54
  Eric Plunkett: And he, um, he comes out and he takes the Santa Ana, which is one of the, one of the Manila galleons.
• 9:00
  Eric Plunkett: And on board the Santa Ana, we think was Vizcaíno.
• 9:04
  Eric Plunkett: This is 1587.
• 9:06
  Eric Plunkett: And we think also, uh, uh, Cermenjo, which, uh, I'm going to get more into his story in just a minute.
• 9:11
  Eric Plunkett: So these really important guys, and I'll talk about both of them, you know, in California history, they, um, they were on board this ship when it happened.
• 9:20
  Eric Plunkett: And so there's this fight.
• 9:23
  Eric Plunkett: Cavendish, you know, takes the ship, takes all of the cargo.
• 9:27
  Eric Plunkett: that they are interested in taking, leaves the crew up on, uh, on land on, um, at, at, where about Cabo San Lucas is today, burns the Santa Ana, the ship, and Cavendish takes off.
• 9:42
  Eric Plunkett: The burning embers of the ship happen with a change of the wind, float and run aground.
• 9:47
  Eric Plunkett: On, on the coast of Baja, California and the crew from the, from the, from the galleon gets, it puts out the fire and they construct a boat from that, that they end up taking down to, I think it's Acapulco where they go back down to, and so it's another one of these just unbelievable stories that, you know, in this whole thing.
• 10:08
  Eric Plunkett: So that all happens the same year.
• 10:10
  Eric Plunkett: And so it's kind of a hot contested space here in California and, or the California is going down to Baja, California at this time.
• 10:18
  Eric Plunkett: And this is really early.
• 10:19
  Eric Plunkett: We're still in 1587.
• 10:20
  Eric Plunkett: Like I said, chain mail, you know, that's in the, it's in the, in the documents.
• 10:25
  Damian Bacich: helmets.
• 10:26
  Eric Plunkett: Yep.
• 10:27
  Eric Plunkett: And pointy helmets.
• 10:27
  Eric Plunkett: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:29
  Eric Plunkett: Exactly.
• 10:30
  Eric Plunkett: Um, so now Spain at that point, right after 1587, they are, okay, we've, we've got to figure this out.
• 10:37
  Eric Plunkett: You know, we, we can't afford to have our vanilla galleons either, you know, sinking because the men got scurvy.
• 10:45
  Eric Plunkett: Right.
• 10:45
  Eric Plunkett: And that's probably what happened to San Juanio in 1578, um, or getting taken by, you know, an English Corsair.
• 10:52
  Eric Plunkett: Right.
• 10:53
  Eric Plunkett: And so there is another push.
• 10:56
  Eric Plunkett: In the 1590s, um, to have another returning galleon explore the coast of California, and this happens in 1595, and it's under a Portuguese sailor named, uh, you know, commander named Ser Menho.
• 11:11
  Eric Plunkett: And Serge Menho takes the, his ship, the San Agustin, it's actually a pretty small ship, comes back from the Philippines and gets to California and ends up in Drake's Bay, at the exact same place where Sir Francis Drake was in 1579.
• 11:27
  Eric Plunkett: And he stays there and does some land incursions, goes around all the areas there, the Miwok people who are living there, and he, um, Has, uh, many numerous kind of encounters with, with them and describes them.
• 11:41
  Eric Plunkett: And so we have really good details about, you know, uh, where about he was.
• 11:46
  Eric Plunkett: And we actually can prove where he was based on the Vizcaya New expedition.
• 11:50
  Eric Plunkett: Um, but anyway, yeah, so he's there and while he's there, San Agustin, which is his ship, we don't know why, but it runs aground in Drake's Bay, 1595, it's California's first shipwreck.
• 12:04
  Eric Plunkett: We think, um, and, uh, we know it's still there and, um, there are artifacts of the ship that have at times been collected by, um, the park service there, um, uh, off of Point Reyes.
• 12:18
  Eric Plunkett: And, you know, it's like all these ceramics, broken ceramics from, you know, these, these, you know, Chinese wares.
• 12:23
  Eric Plunkett: That were traded through the Philippines.
• 12:26
  Eric Plunkett: And, uh, so they end up constructing a boat.
• 12:30
  Eric Plunkett: Uh, they actually have a launch, I think.
• 12:32
  Eric Plunkett: And I think that they kind of add to it.
• 12:33
  Eric Plunkett: I think it's 70 guys and their dogs.
• 12:36
  Eric Plunkett: And it's an open top boat and they take that thing out of Drake's Bay and they go all the way down the coast of California.
• 12:44
  Eric Plunkett: And there's some amazing things that happen.
• 12:47
  Eric Plunkett: They get to about Santa Barbara and they get near enough to the coast, they see a guy.
• 12:52
  Eric Plunkett: Who's up on a bluff and he comes running down the bluff and he's saying, you know, Cristianos, Cristianos, you know, Mexico, Mexico.
• 13:00
  Eric Plunkett: He's like, you know, he knows the words, Christians, Mexicans.
• 13:03
  Eric Plunkett: And so it's like, okay, so is he, does he know this because Unamuno was there about eight years before?
• 13:09
  Eric Plunkett: Does he know this because he knows people who, you know, had fraternized with Cabrillo, you know?
• 13:15
  Eric Plunkett: We don't know, but, um, you know, he ends up kind of exploring all through Southern California and, and all the way down back to Acapulco and they, those guys make it, but it's a, it's one of these unbelievable journeys again.
• 13:28
  Eric Plunkett: So that's the San Agustin in 1595.
• 13:31
  Eric Plunkett: So another story that it's like, should get more play because it more, more people interested.
• 13:36
  Eric Plunkett: Cause it's, it's very interesting.
• 13:38
  Damian Bacich: Right.
• 13:38
  Damian Bacich: And where did you come across these stories?
• 13:42
  Damian Bacich: I mean, or the story, for example, of Sarmenio or the, the, well, I guess if you've been to Point Reyes and you've seen the museum there, I suppose you probably know about it, but, but yeah, where, where are coming across these stories?
• 13:56
  Eric Plunkett: Great question.
• 13:57
  Eric Plunkett: They, um, I started with, uh, you know, um, I just forgot his first name, Mathis.
• 14:03
  Eric Plunkett: He did a biography on Vizcaíno and through that, I got, uh, there's a early kind of maritime California historian named Henry Ropp Wagner, Henry R.
• 14:15
  Eric Plunkett: Wagner, and he wrote a book called, uh, it's like, uh, was it, it might be like 16th century voyages to the Northwest coast, something like that.
• 14:26
  Eric Plunkett: And, and then, then, you know, yeah, it's, it's great.
• 14:30
  Eric Plunkett: It's hard to find.
• 14:32
  Eric Plunkett: Um, there's another book by, um, Paul A.
• 14:36
  Eric Plunkett: Myers, and he put out a book that's kind of a summarization of all of this, um, North to California, like the Spanish discovery of, you know, California, something like that, Paul A.
• 14:46
  Eric Plunkett: Myers.
• 14:47
  Eric Plunkett: So there's all these great, um, You know, source, there's all this great source material.
• 14:50
  Eric Plunkett: There's great books on Cabrillo, reprints of his logs, um, and a lot of this stuff is online.
• 14:57
  Eric Plunkett: And so I kind of put it together in a blog post that I wrote about Manila galleons, um, where I just kind of put things to, to post them.
• 15:05
  Eric Plunkett: And it has kind of a summarization
• 15:07
  Damian Bacich: right.
• 15:07
  Damian Bacich: Well, I'll put a link to that.
• 15:09
  Damian Bacich: blog post so people can read it.
• 15:12
  Eric Plunkett: Awesome, man.
• 15:13
  Eric Plunkett: That's great.
• 15:13
  Eric Plunkett: That's awesome.
• 15:15
  Eric Plunkett: Yeah.
• 15:16
  Eric Plunkett: And, and that really takes us all the way through.
• 15:18
  Eric Plunkett: I mean, we're all the way at the Vizcayaño expedition now, and that's 1602.
• 15:21
  Eric Plunkett: And it's, he's on this expedition for much the same reasons that these other guys were, which was to try to find a place in California where, you know, there could be safe passage for Manila galleons.
• 15:34
  Eric Plunkett: They could stop, they could get water, they could, you know, repair their mass or repair their ship.
• 15:38
  Eric Plunkett: And, you know, Vizcaíno does the next really comprehensive, you know, with him and his three ships, comprehensive expedition to California.
• 15:48
  Eric Plunkett: And his expedition, they actually make, the maps have survived.
• 15:52
  Eric Plunkett: So we have the very maps that they made.
• 15:55
  Eric Plunkett: And a lot of the place names that we have today go back in California that are really, really old.
• 16:02
  Eric Plunkett: You know, um, like the Carmel River.
• 16:04
  Eric Plunkett: Right was named after the Carmelite, uh, um, fathers that were on that expedition, including Father Asen, who was the, the, the journalist.
• 16:13
  Eric Plunkett: Um, and, and lots of others.
• 16:15
  Eric Plunkett: Santa Catalina Island that was named then, you know, um, San Diego, like all, a lot of these things, Monterey, right?
• 16:21
  Eric Plunkett: All those were named by Viscaino.
• 16:24
  Eric Plunkett: None of the Cabrillo expedition names survive, but, um.
• 16:29
  Eric Plunkett: Lots of the Vizcayaño, and then Point Mendocino predates Vizcayaño.
• 16:33
  Eric Plunkett: That's one of the earliest place names in California.
• 16:36
  Eric Plunkett: Um, and uh, so yeah, Vizcayaño goes all the way up the coast of California.
• 16:41
  Eric Plunkett: Does a lot of the same stuff, and there's great stories with that too.
• 16:45
  Eric Plunkett: When he's at Catalina, this, this woman comes to the ship with two, she has two silks.
• 16:51
  Eric Plunkett: Two silk thing made from made in China with her and this kind, you know, and this expedition members there at Catalina go, where did you get these?
• 17:00
  Eric Plunkett: And, uh, there's an indication, oh yeah, there's some indication that there's a ship that sank near here, you know?
• 17:08
  Eric Plunkett: And so they actually say that the, the, the, the people were there, I guess, I guess you have like Tongva people.
• 17:13
  Eric Plunkett: It's hard to tell who was, who they were talking with from the journals, if they were far enough North to be in the Chumash region or not, but anyways, they kind of say, Hey, we'll take you up.
• 17:23
  Eric Plunkett: Where the ship went aground, but they're way down in Southern California.
• 17:28
  Eric Plunkett: And so it's like, did they expect to go all the way up to Drake's Bay?
• 17:32
  Eric Plunkett: But, um, but anyways, this, that's another one of those stories.
• 17:35
  Eric Plunkett: And Viscaya goes all the way up to Monterey and anybody's been to Monterey.
• 17:39
  Eric Plunkett: You can go see.
• 17:40
  Eric Plunkett: Part of the tree.
• 17:42
  Eric Plunkett: There was a big tree in Monterey that hung over the, you know, kind of inlet there and, uh, where they had mass, um, and, uh, this kind of the whole expedition and, um, you know, that part of that tree is still up there.
• 17:55
  Eric Plunkett: Uh, and you can see it in Mission San Carlos Borromeo, but yeah, so Vizcayaño goes to that Bay and he says, this is it, this is the place where the Manila galleons have to come, right?
• 18:03
  Eric Plunkett: This is where they have to come.
• 18:05
  Eric Plunkett: It actually sends it one ship back to Mexico at that point with all the sick aboard and some of the ship that's the other two ships go further north.
• 18:12
  Eric Plunkett: And in the Vizcayaño expedition was also Balaños, who was the pilot with the San Agustín in 1595.
• 18:19
  Eric Plunkett: And so when he goes up north, he actually points out Drake's Bay and says, that's where our ship sank.
• 18:26
  Eric Plunkett: They're unable to go there because of the winds, but that's how we know that that's where the San Agustín and Settermen hold.
• 18:32
  Eric Plunkett: So there's the whole, the whole Vizcayaño expedition is this fascinating thing.
• 18:36
  Eric Plunkett: And that really puts kind of a capstone.
• 18:39
  Eric Plunkett: On Spanish interest in California at this time period.
• 18:45
  Eric Plunkett: Um, we know that Manila galleons would have stopped here between the end of the Vizcayaño expedition in 1603.
• 18:52
  Eric Plunkett: And the Port de Law expedition in 1769, but there, uh, as far as official exploration of what is now Alta, California, it really stopped with the end of Vizcaíno.
• 19:05
  Eric Plunkett: And he really pumped up Monterey.
• 19:07
  Eric Plunkett: He was like, this is the place to go.
• 19:09
  Eric Plunkett: But the Manila galleon captain started to say to the viceroy, yeah, by that point, we, we just want to hightail it back to Acapulco.
• 19:17
  Eric Plunkett: But we don't.
• 19:17
  Eric Plunkett: We don't want to stop.
• 19:19
  Eric Plunkett: And so it's not worth trying to create a colony up there.
• 19:23
  Eric Plunkett: Um, and so they don't.
• 19:25
  Eric Plunkett: And that's kind of the end of it.
• 19:27
  Eric Plunkett: Despite the efforts of Father Ascension, who's the journalist with the Vizcayne Expedition, he was trying to make that happen.
• 19:33
  Eric Plunkett: He was really Pushing for the Viceroy to do that.
• 19:36
  Eric Plunkett: And it's Aion who passed down apparently that story of, um, Morena from the, the, the Drake Expedition.
• 19:44
  Eric Plunkett: So there's a lot Damien.
• 19:46
  Eric Plunkett: It's, it's so amazing.
• 19:47
  Eric Plunkett: You it's just a, a bunch of amazing stories that we, we, I don't think we really think about in, in
• 19:54
  Damian Bacich: No, even, even people who, who study it, you know, like I do, there's, that's a lot of stuff that, that I don't know about.
• 20:02
  Damian Bacich: And it's always, it's always, um, made me wonder why the names that Cabrillo applied to the places he visited didn't stick, you know?
• 20:16
  Eric Plunkett: Yep.
• 20:17
  Eric Plunkett: It's a great point.
• 20:18
  Eric Plunkett: And you know, there are maps from like the 1550s and 60s that have the Cabrillo names and they're bad, right?
• 20:26
  Eric Plunkett: It's like the islands are about right and they have different names.
• 20:30
  Eric Plunkett: Um, you know, but they probably, I've thought about this a lot.
• 20:35
  Eric Plunkett: And because one of the things about trying to write about much later the Porte de la Expedition is the Porte de la Expedition ends up having a lot of portals.
• 20:45
  Eric Plunkett: One of them is that Vizcayaño talked up Monterey so much that when they actually see Monterey, they're like, this is it?
• 20:52
  Eric Plunkett: And it's, they're questioning it so much.
• 20:54
  Eric Plunkett: They don't even think that they're in Monterey.
• 20:57
  Eric Plunkett: They think they, this must be wrong as they keep going north.
• 20:59
  Eric Plunkett: And then they reach San Francisco and they, Whoa, we didn't know about this.
• 21:03
  Eric Plunkett: Um, but, uh, but I think the Spanish bureaucracy did not do a great job of archiving a lot of this material.
• 21:14
  Eric Plunkett: I don't know why, maybe they did, maybe that some of these guys doing these expeditions, they were really ambitious and they, they wanted to kind of erase that which came before and they, you know, wanted to pump up.
• 21:26
  Eric Plunkett: Hey, we're here for the first time.
• 21:28
  Eric Plunkett: Um, I'm not sure, but it, it is surprising to me because for instance, like the Vizcaíno maps.
• 21:35
  Eric Plunkett: are good enough that if they, if the Portola expedition had been in possession of them, they would have known they were in Monterey.
• 21:44
  Eric Plunkett: And those, we have them today, and it's strange that they didn't have them in 1769.
• 21:49
  Eric Plunkett: And with Cabrillo, you know, we have this summary that Urdoneta, right, wrote in about, in the 1560s, and he's clearly taking from multiple sources of information from that Cabrillo expedition.
• 22:04
  Eric Plunkett: And all of those are lost.
• 22:05
  Eric Plunkett: We, we have not found any of those, the original source material.
• 22:09
  Eric Plunkett: And, um, we even think that there was maps and don't have it.
• 22:13
  Eric Plunkett: So, you know, it's hard to say in part, I think what happened was the Spanish mindset was changing in the 1500s.
• 22:21
  Eric Plunkett: It started off with, Hey, maybe we can find another one of these amazing civilizations, rich in a bunch of things.
• 22:28
  Eric Plunkett: And then it kind of slowly changed into, we need to establish trade routes.
• 22:34
  Eric Plunkett: We need to kind of organize all of this.
• 22:36
  Eric Plunkett: And so you have kind of two different mindsets and Cabrillo kind of happened in the former mindset.
• 22:41
  Eric Plunkett: It was trying to find the seven cities, trying to find some major, you know, kind of geographical connection between North America and Asia.
• 22:50
  Eric Plunkett: Once that died down, Right?
• 22:52
  Eric Plunkett: Then you kind of had a different approach that was probably more systemized and more formalized.
• 22:58
  Eric Plunkett: And that's why the names later survive and those earlier ones don't.
• 23:02
  Eric Plunkett: That, yeah, it's all speculation.
• 23:03
  Eric Plunkett: I don't know for sure.
• 23:05
  Damian Bacich: Yeah.
• 23:06
  Damian Bacich: I'm sure there's probably somebody who has a good.
• 23:09
  Damian Bacich: theory about it, but it makes sense what you say that the mindset definitely changes from let's discover these mythical areas and new civilizations to let's establish a location where we can keep our commerce safe from pirates and keep the trade routes open and perhaps have a nice safe port.
• 23:34
  Damian Bacich: You know, I think by that, by that point, People probably are keeping better records and they're, they're a little bit more systematic about how they do things, one would think.
• 23:48
  Eric Plunkett: I agree.
• 23:48
  Eric Plunkett: And that was a much better summarization.
• 23:50
  Eric Plunkett: That was, I totally agree.
• 23:51
  Eric Plunkett: That's, that's exactly right.
• 23:53
  Eric Plunkett: So, yeah, that's, you know, it goes to show you that the Spanish had a full story arc with California.
• 24:00
  Eric Plunkett: It during this era, early era, and, you know, our, there's scholarship now moving in this direction of tying, right?
• 24:09
  Eric Plunkett: Um, our friend, Dr.
• 24:10
  Eric Plunkett: Marie Duggan, she's really been looking into the economics of all, you know, California and Asia, and you go, yeah, it makes sense, right?
• 24:20
  Eric Plunkett: That from the earliest.
• 24:23
  Eric Plunkett: Parts of our, you know, Spanish exploration, the earliest, um, you know, kind of incursions into the California story were because of kind of this idea of trade with Asia.
• 24:34
  Eric Plunkett: And, you know, that carries on all the way through today.
• 24:36
  Eric Plunkett: Right.
• 24:37
  Eric Plunkett: So it's, uh, it's very interesting and it really does kind of help put California in a different context than just, you know, the missions.
• 24:47
  Eric Plunkett: Um, you know, it's like, Oh yeah, this was, this played a part in kind of the formation of world trade.
• 24:53
  Eric Plunkett: And California was just, it was just a little point on the road in that story, but it, you know, now we have these wonderful stories that we can, we can talk about.
• 25:04
  Damian Bacich: Yeah.
• 25:04
  Damian Bacich: And it ties in with going back to the interview I did with Jason Sexton about Kevin Starr, the great historian of California, who even went so far as to call California an Asian place, right?
• 25:19
  Damian Bacich: That this connection to Asia, it's there from the beginning of European presence, right?
• 25:28
  Damian Bacich: And, you know, perhaps even from the beginning of human presence, because if it's true that, that, that, Humans crossed the land bridge from Asia to come into the west coast of North America, then it's always been a natural, you know, a natural connection.
• 25:48
  Damian Bacich: Though, I don't know about enough about that stuff to be able to make a good commentary on it.
• 25:57
  Eric Plunkett: Yeah, that's, that's such a good point.
• 25:59
  Eric Plunkett: And there's some other scholars, right, doing this and, and, uh, wonderful scholars and you're totally, you're, you're so right.
• 26:05
  Eric Plunkett: And the, the story is so big.
• 26:08
  Eric Plunkett: You, you can't have anybody who knows it all, which is why it's great that we can have these conversations.
• 26:13
  Eric Plunkett: So that people who kind of have their, you know, their things that they're focusing on have a forum to exchange those ideas.
• 26:20
  Eric Plunkett: It's like, I've learned so much.
• 26:22
  Eric Plunkett: From your guests and from your conversations and from you.
• 26:26
  Eric Plunkett: Uh, I mean, geez, Damian, you know, so much cool stuff.
• 26:29
  Eric Plunkett: And it's like, Oh man, that makes me think about things in another new way.
• 26:32
  Eric Plunkett: And it's, you know, in order for good history to be, you know, created and put out there into the world, you have to have.
• 26:41
  Eric Plunkett: Good historians constantly talking, you know, and that's, that's, that's what this is.
• 26:46
  Eric Plunkett: So I'm sure listeners will have many things to add that I'm like, Oh man, I didn't know that.
• 26:51
  Eric Plunkett: Or, you know, corrections or new things to consider.
• 26:54
  Eric Plunkett: I mean, yeah, just as you have in this great.
• 26:58
  Damian Bacich: I'm sure I'll get some, um, get some really interesting emails, you know, um, with tidbits about the things we're talking about.
• 27:05
  Damian Bacich: So let me, um, let me not take more of your time up, but I think that what we've talked about is just, it's a great illustration of the fact that there's so much out there still.
• 27:18
  Damian Bacich: And how California, whatever it was called then, and whatever it is now, was so plugged in to these trade networks, was so plugged into world history, and that there are these stories out there that when you think that you know it all, or you think Yeah, there's just a little bit here and there prior to, you know, the gold rush, let's say, or even prior to the arrival of the missions, etc.
• 27:50
  Damian Bacich: You realize that no, there's a whole lot going on and the continuity of the Native people as well.
• 27:58
  Damian Bacich: I mean, I'm, I'm so excited about the type of things that we're still going to be able to, to dig up and talk about and, and, uh, poke around and learn about.
• 28:10
  Damian Bacich: So yeah, it's always great to talk to you and hear about the things you're working on because there's always something cool, um, that you're digging up.
• 28:18
  Damian Bacich: And so yeah, thanks a lot.
• 28:20
  Damian Bacich: Thanks for taking the time.
• 28:23
  Eric Plunkett: Absolutely, man.
• 28:24
  Eric Plunkett: And I thank you, Damian, for having me on here.
• 28:27
  Eric Plunkett: And I, you know, just for my own, put a capstone on this.
• 28:31
  Eric Plunkett: The thing that I love about this is that it's like, when I hear about things, when I learn about this stuff, I get to go to the beach and look out over the ocean.
• 28:39
  Eric Plunkett: And now I start to think, I'm like, oh my gosh.
• 28:40
  Eric Plunkett: Oh man, think of the stories that took place here.
• 28:43
  Eric Plunkett: Right.
• 28:43
  Eric Plunkett: And so, you know, all of your podcasts are kind of a window into when I go to different places in California, it's like, Oh wow, there's this story now that I can, that I can imagine.
• 28:53
  Eric Plunkett: And it's now imbued with a lot more, you know, kind of a structure because you and your, your guests are able to do that.
• 29:01
  Eric Plunkett: So it helps me like, you know, just because I love this stuff, it gives me so much perspective.
• 29:07
  Eric Plunkett: So thank you for continuing to do this.
• 29:09
  Eric Plunkett: It's a lot
• 29:10
  Damian Bacich: That is awesome.
• 29:10
  Damian Bacich: Well, if you're, if you're up for it, we'll keep it going.
• 29:14
  Eric Plunkett: Let's keep it going.
• 29:23
  I hope you enjoyed this episode of the California Frontier Show.
• 29:27
  If you'd like to support the show, the best thing to do is to let other people know about it.
• 29:33
  If you'd like to support it monetarily, there are a couple ways of doing that.
• 29:37
  One is by scrolling down in your podcast app to where it says support the show.
• 29:42
  There you can become a subscriber for as little as three dollars a month.
• 29:46
  And if you want to give a one time donation, just below you'll see where it says give a one time donation.
• 29:54
  Finally, the show is supported by California History Teachers, which is a full year of lessons for 4th grade California History and Social Studies.
• 30:03
  You can find out more at www.
• 30:06
  californiahistoryteachers.
• 30:08
  com.
• 30:09
  And if you input the coupon code PODCAST, you'll receive 25 percent off your monthly or annual subscription.
• 30:17
  So check it out!