Latest / First Online With Fran / Maleni Chaitoo: Breaking Through the Silence
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- Maleni Chaitoo: Breaking the Silence Podcast Transcript Fran Marlee Matlin came to realize there was one downside to starring in the Sundance Film Festival runaway hit CODA with a ground breaking ensemble of predominantly deaf actors. Her onscreen husband, played by Troy Kotzur was so wickedly surprising in American Sign Language improvisation, Matlin feared she'd burst into laughter in a scene when the frisky couple visit a doctor for a shared painful condition. "In my 35 year career, I've never had deaf co-stars in leading roles that carry the film equally as me," she says. "This is a very special movie. And today, I have a very special guest. Welcome to First Online With Fran�s There�s No Place Like Art. I'm Fran McGarry, your podcast host. Matlin lost her hearing due to illness at 18 months old, and she has experienced a number of Hollywood breakthrough moments as the only deaf actor to win an Academy Award, playing a rebellious student in 1986's "Children of a Lesser God". The activist actor has moved from project to project in her nearly four decade career, garnering roles and Emmy nominations for "Law and Order: Special Victims Unit�, �The Practice" and even The Lip Reader on "Seinfeld" in 1994. Matlin later emerged as the first deaf participant of Season 6 of "Dancing with the Stars". Shout to today's guest, Maleni Chaitoo, who speaks to us today through her sign language interpreter on the importance of advocating for performers with disabilities. Welcome, Malini. Maleni Thank you. Fran 2:46 Now, like Matlin, what are some of your breakthrough moments as a deaf actor, both in the media and on the stage? And how have you raised awareness of actors with disabilities through your projects? Maleni Great, thanks, Fran. Since Marlee's beginning in 1986, here we are in the 21st century, and writers and creators of TV shows are introducing deaf characters on the ABC channel. �The Freedom� which is now �The Freedom Channel�. And they're representing deaf actors. Because deaf actors are playing the roles of deaf characters. And I think that that's a breakthrough. One of the biggest we've ever seen; it's created more opportunities for deaf and hard of hearing performers, and for other people with other disabilities to be included as well. I think that there has been a generational change over time, that many people have accepted performances with disabilities, and acknowledge that they have talents to be shared through their performances, through singing, through their acting craft. And it's been very impressive. And I think it's actually time that these abilities are presented. And instead of hiring hearing actors who are pretending to have disabilities, are pretending to be deaf and hard of hearing. So, we can dispense with that, because there's already actors out there with talent and training who are ready to show their work. So, there has been a shift over time and I believe, a shift in the mindset that's given more opportunities to deaf and hard of hearing and actors with disabilities. And I think that what we need is the accessibility behind the scenes. That's how we get the access for the performers to work. Having people with disabilities behind the camera or having interpreters behind the camera or having wheelchair ramps at the ready, so that these accessible necessities are already there. Or, and this is then how we pave the way for performances with disabilities and also performers who are deaf and hard of hearing to take their place on stage and on film. Fran Okay, I have, like 100 questions. You said so much. I'm trying to jot down some of my thoughts. The first thing that you mentioned to me was the freedom channel. I don't I don't know what that is. Maleni 5:30 Ah, It had been ABC Family Channel, and it was on the network. It's under the ABC Studios rubric. And later, its brand was changed to Freedom Channel. And that is a network designed for families, family audiences, let's say. Fran 5:54 Talk about reaching out to audiences! Have you seen the impact and outreach this channel has offered to people with disabilities? Maleni Well, I would say it's both to impact to people with disabilities, but also general audiences; you're including people with disabilities in the programming. And that gives you the message to every audience that you're connecting both audiences with disabilities and families without disabilities to see this as part of the normal life. I would say back in 2012 they started, I believe it maybe even be in 2011 is when they began, and they've been broadcasting many successful shows over the years that are impacting millions of viewers. And stories are now representing deaf and hard of hearing individuals, individuals with disabilities. And they're in the programming they're being seen by general audiences over its timespan has been very successful. And that has been a good model for other channels and producers to watch. I was briefly in a program as a basketball player in high school. And the show was "Switched At Birth". I had a small role as a high school basketball player in that show. But that was part of my career in acting during that era. And I learned from observation and how they operated. And I got interested in the entertainment industry itself. And it's really amazing. And that made me actually think of developing a web series, a comedy web series from that experience. And I collaborated with another producer by the name of Craig Fogel, and we worked together developing an idea for a fun comedy series. And there are many issues that we knew that we could address. I certainly I have grown up within deaf hearing relationships. So, any of these issues then became opportunities to include in our stories that we were sharing with a mainstream audience, and Craig and I decided to create this series called "Don't Shoot the Messenger". We hired people with disabilities, deaf and hard-of -hearing performers. Also, behind the camera. We hired. . . not only do we hire actors, we hired filmmakers and collaborators to work together to make this an actuality. And I'm immensely proud of our work in that series, showing audiences the perspective of an interpreter of a hearing interpreter perspective, of a deaf interpreter, different multiple perspectives. And we've included issues of intersectionality. So intersectional perspectives as well. And that was for an outreach to a general audience. And we wanted to show that it came from people with various backgrounds, various life experiences, and I found that to be touching. I really felt good about that series. It created many more opportunities for everyone to be involved. And it was fully accessible. I tried to infuse it with the message that even though this is comical, there's opportunities to change thoughts about who we are, and they can see us as normal people with disabilities or human. There should be no barriers between us; we find ways to communicate, we find ways to be together and collaborate. So, I felt that it was filled with hope that we can achieve great things when we're working together. It also showed that sign language was not negative or a detriment. Sign language is amazing. And it's really easy to communicate and very natural part of a natural form of human communication, just like we're doing now. Exactly. Fran10:13 Exactly. And I am, I'm so grateful. This is my first podcast with a deaf guest star. And it doesn't change anything, the feeling that communication is there, if we can only extend that out to the awful culture that we are experiencing in our society. Today, I want to get back to what you were talking about - accessibility behind the camera. Is there a difference in the aesthetics getting the art across? Do you have to do another approach when you're behind the camera? Or when you're working with a grip? who's deaf? Is it? Does that change that artistic conduit? Is there something different about it? Maleni 11:18 A great question. I will just tell you from my professional experience as a director of artistic sign language, working closely with one TV production, which was "High Maintenance", and it's on HBO MAX, so they reached out to me, and it came via a referral. They were looking for someone to advise the lead who was developing a deaf character, and an interpreter character, and as a part of their storyline. So I was there as consultant. I read the script, and then I worked closely with the writing team. And I advised them based on the Deaf Cultural experience based on knowledge of the language. And the goal was that we will be authentic. So I told them our truths, and then what certain things that were in the script, were not authentic. And they made adjustments in the script and made it much more real much more authentic. And the deaf characters were more real true to life. And the kinds of miscommunications that happened were more true to life. So, it raised the caliber of the aesthetics, I think, and then I was very happy with the final script, and I was glad that they trusted my judgment and the feedback that I offered and the guidance that I offered. And of course, I do care about the audience, I want them to feel like they can relate to the story that's being shared with them. So, I was able to offer those considerations to the script. And of course, most hearing people have never experienced what it's like to be in the shoes of a deaf person, to not be able to hear these communicative cues, because they've relied on hearing their whole life, they use their spoken language, which will be in English, French, whatever. And the words in the script are based on an auditory language. But we in the deaf community, are visual by nature, we rely on the visual experience. And we have a visual language, which includes facial expression, body movement, and so forth. So, a hearing person writing a script would have words that would be meaningless to the Deaf perspective. And we don't necessarily rely on those same words, because we're looking for the visual cues of eye movements, gestures, throat changes, body changes, body shifts that reflect the attitude. And it was important to explain the difference between the hearing culture and the deaf culture that is much more reliant on the visual nature of things. For movement, pictures, like they say a picture's worth 1000 words; whereas, those who are in the hearing world are reliant on these auditory cues for everything there. And they're encoded in the English words that were written on the script. And it was really great to be able to share that. They appreciated that and so during the pre-production process, we were working on the development of the script. And then they moved on to the actual shooting. And they were asking me, is the clothing appropriate? Is the angle right? And I was still able to offer information to help the director and the DP, the Director of Photography, and the script supervisor may . . . Make sure that what was going in the can was as explicit as possible that they weren't coming in for too much of a close up and losing the signs, for example. And for me, as an audience, I love to see signs with the closed-captions. Of course, pardon me, deaf and hard of hearing people have been raised bilingual in the United States, the English or print form of English. But I really like having sign language on the screen and facial expressions, body language, in addition to the captions. So, I can get it both from the Deaf perspective. And as well as the written English perspective. So, I was able to be there when they were hiring talent for their roles. And I worked closely with the deaf actors as well, to translate their lines from the written print script, to the ASL that would be used in their scenes. And I worked closely with the director, during the rehearsals at the scenes to make sure that everything was going to be appropriate that the camera was in when it needed to be in and back when it needed to have a wider shot. And I really appreciated that they asked about whether a shot could be more close up or not, to not lose the language. And then in the post production editing segment, it was also fabulous to be there with them. And I worked closely with the team; it was a wonderful experience. So, in the post production, I was with the editor, and an interpreter, and I was watching all the way through to make sure the editor was picking shots where the language would be clearly understood and not missed, because I want to make sure that our eyes could capture what was being seen. And then they were adding the captions in the right timing with the signs. Fran Oh my god.... (Together.) Together. Maleni And yeah, it was, overall, when it was done. It was delivered, and the audience loved it. And it was inspiring to see so many audience members getting very excited, even though they really may have had minimal knowledge about American Sign Language and deaf culture. But they got inspired and eager. And it also came to a comical conclusion, which was great. They included so many deaf and hard of hearing people in in this project, I just thought it was a wonderful experience. Fran Sounds like that, and I not only commend you, and respect you for raising awareness about this very important topic, but, as an actor, as you were explaining that process, it would probably make me a better actor. Because of the match up [of] what was being said and to really look at the motive of a character and how to visually communicate that. Was your training as a deaf actor, a different process? Or was it more enhanced because of your disability? Maleni Okay, well, let me just tell you a bit about my background. I was born deaf. And I had a passion for theater and film. I was born into a hearing family. And TV was my best friend. I would watch, and back in the 70s and 80s. You can imagine, imagine all the TV shows that were on TV. They were popular, "The Hulk", "Bionic Woman", "Wonder Woman", "Happy Days", right. And "I Love Lucy" reruns in the 70s and 80s. So, I would sit glued to the set with no captions at that time. And I was entranced by how their physicality expressed the meaning. And, of course, I loved dance. It was another passion of mine. And I was the one deaf person in my family until my younger twin sisters were also born a few years later. And so, the three of us were deaf kids in the family. And I took the bus to go to the Deaf school in Manhattan. I went through Times Square 42nd Street where I'd see tons of posters illustrating musicals like "A Chorus Line" or "Cats". And there was so, so much stimulation around me as I was growing up. And I really appreciated that. I was attracted to older films, "The Wizard of Oz", for example. There was no captioning at the time. I'm, but I was so entranced by the costumes like the Lion, the Tin Man, Dorothy, the Scarecrow, and the Wizard himself. I mean, it was just captivating. It was like cartoons in a way. So, I learned sign language in the Deaf school. And we would act things out, emulate what was going on. And school gave me opportunities to be in the plays, you know, children's plays. I felt really good. I liked to tell stories. When I came home, my hearing family, of course, had tried to learn some sign. But it wasn't a fully-functioning sign language at home. So there was some linguistic deprivation at that time, but in school, I had full access to language communication and learning. I learned so much. And I would get books to read, and I was captivated by the stories. As I grew up, I was in a lot of school plays, I had dance, dancing in school plays, and one time, actually, one day, I think I might have been as young as two, my mother brought me with her. My older sisters were studying ballet at the Hudson Guild, which is West 26th Street. I know, it's pretty renowned. I went and I saw it. And my mom was sitting next to me. And I told her I wanted to take the dance class. And she kept telling me no, no; understand, this was '78. And you have to understand that the perspective at that time was that people were not capable of doing so many things that she was trying terribly hard to protect me. My family were immigrants. And they were nervous and trying to protect this deaf child of theirs. But I was a pretty restless child, and I would cry. And then the dance teacher came up to my mom, and she was embarrassed and apologizing that her child was making noise and was deaf and the teacher said, "That's okay. You can allow her on the stage." She said, "You can let her join the dance class." My mom was stunned. And the teacher reassured her that that was fine. And I stood on the stage in front of the line of all the rest of the students. And they were not that old themselves. They were maybe four or five years old. And I would practice along with everyone. And when it came time for the class to perform in front of an audience, my mother was so nervous. And she was sitting in the back and very tentative and eyeing the audience. And that performance was awesome. And my mother overheard, �Oh, isn't that little girl? That little short one? Isn't she so cute?" And everyone was applauding and my mother's attitude changed; her heart expanded. It gave her a sense that Yep, dance was something that could be done, whether you could hear or not, because it was visual. And sure enough, I was involved in dances in schools, and even after school, but they didn't provide interpreters in those days. And so, I just visually followed what others were doing, dance, any kind of dance. But back in those days, I actually wish we had more sign language interpreters available for these kinds of classes. But nobody was aware of that. Then, nobody was thinking about kids involved in those kinds of endeavors. Eventually, I did go to school. I was involved with plays. And of course, I attended Broadway plays, children's plays. And that's how I was exposed to the arts. So basically, that was my experience, my training my way of developing my skill. And in high school, I was also involved in theater and dance. And when I attended college, I decided not to major in theater arts, because I didn't think that there were many job availabilities for deaf artists. So, I went in the field of business administration. But I still wanted to dabble in theater productions, like "The Prince & the Pauper". So, I was immersed in that world. And once I had graduated, I was working in the business world for a while, and yet I still had a passion for the arts. So, I would attend arts and I maybe was involved with some smaller productions. And when I was laid off from my job, I decided to turn to a career in theater. And that's how I then was able to join a few classes with hearing students that did have sign language interpreters. There weren't as many opportunities then, compared to today; there's certainly greater opportunities for deaf and hard of hearing students to be involved in arts training. Fran 25:15 There are now also more opportunities for work for deaf and hard of hearing artists. So, schools are training deaf and hard of hearing actors. Let's follow up on that. Maleni 25:26 Yes. Fran 25:28 Opportunities, you're creating your own opportunities through The WHO collective. Am I correct? Maleni 25:38 It's actually The WHY collective... Fran 25:45 Oh. I have that in my notes. Yes. The WHY Collective. Maleni 25:51 It's fine. This was an event a couple of months ago that I was contacted about through friends of mine who knew the director, the artistic director . . . Fran The WHY collective, Maleni 26:07 They had already had a deaf actor in their performance group, and they wanted some assistance in translation from the English to an ASL performance. So, I came in, had a talk with him and then just jumped in and was immersed with their collective, and their performance was �Words of the Prophets�, which was comprised five different skill sets of mental health in various scenarios, and a range of people with different backgrounds, intersectional, identities race, gender, religion, oppression, oppressed groups, and so forth. So, these series of skits were written by Vayl Larkin, a non-binary playwright, based in Pittsburgh. I read the poems and found them very deep, very intense. And one was a person from the military who was having flashbacks PTSD, and then another was a nurse who had a schizophrenic breakdown. Another was a sex worker who had traumatic issues. Others were teenagers who were rebelling against the world, and others were Queer people and intersectional Queer people who've been oppressed. It was a very experimental production and incorporated music and artists with disabilities, even artists in wheelchairs, some people with mental illness and deaf signing performers. So, it was very inclusive, and accessible. And I felt it was very successful. This was just this last April. And it was a four-day production. The audience really appreciated and were moved and touched by them. And the theme was mental health. And the goal was to raise awareness, and to wake up our communities to not push this by the wayside, but to really focus attention on it and make improvements for the future. Fran 28:20 It's not lost on me. The irony is not lost on me. That in order for us to hear, and to become aware of these stigmas, it takes a deaf person to bring that to our attention. Maleni Hearing people have now started to ask questions. And they're concerned that their questions might lead me to be emotional or upset or embarrassed, but I'm very open. When people listen to what I have to say or learn about my personal experiences, they change and adjust. In counterpoint, I asked people about their experiences, and I learned it goes both ways. And I asked people with disabilities to share their experiences; we all gain this way. I think it's important for us to be open and we're all human. No one's perfect. Fran Before we wrap up this amazing conversation Maleni, I'd like to know what political statement, what political acknowledgement can be made, to open people's hearts and to accept each other? Maleni 29:35 I think that rather than make a political statement, we open people's hearts through senses of humor and make people comfortable and relaxed and then being willing to be open and engage in dialogue, to ask questions, have conversations. I mean, this is the first time we're meeting and we're just joking, getting comfortable with each other. Right? Right, Frances. So, we're laughing, we're having a good time and that's where our hearts are sort of opening and our minds are opening through this kind of engagement. I think that's where it starts. Fran It most definitely does. And thank you so much for sharing your time and talent and knowledge with me today. Transcribed by https://otter.ai