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Women in Project Management: How to make it to the top · Project Podcast

0:13
Welcome to the OPM podcast. APM is the charter body for the
0:16
project profession. My name is Emma divita and I'm
0:19
editor of projects, opm's quarterly journal.
0:21
And your host today, I've invited three senior leaders
0:25
from the world of projects who also contributed to apm's women
0:28
in project management conference.
0:30
This year I have with me some awesome director transformation
0:34
that department of work and pensions Sharon Parker Brannon
0:37
head of project at sellafield limited and a still don't
0:41
remember associate director. Eject controls at Macy's, also
0:45
chair opm's risk Sig, so brilliant without the conference
0:49
that we wanted to ask him to do this.
0:50
Follow up Podcast for all of you who missed our exit and honest
0:54
showroom experience, which I hope will not only help and
0:58
Inspire those starting out in mid career but also be a source
1:01
of wise, advice for those women listening, who are aiming to get
1:04
to the very top of the profession.
1:07
So Sam, Sharon is still welcome morning morning.
1:11
Good morning. Her joining us.
1:16
And I think if we could begin perhaps with a brief
1:19
introduction from each of you about, who you are, what you do.
1:22
So perhaps, I'm could we go with you?
1:25
Absolutely. Hi.
1:27
Good morning, everybody. I'm Sam, Olson.
1:29
I'm currently director of workplace transformation at the
1:33
department of work and pensions. I've been a civil servant now
1:37
for nearly 10 years. So, I've been a mixture of
1:41
program leadership across the private.
1:43
Inspector at version Atlantic and now at within the Civil
1:47
Service. Okay, thanks Sharon.
1:51
I'm Sharon Parker Brannon I'm ahead of project at sellafield
1:54
limited. What does that entail on a daily
1:57
basis? It entails identifying projects
2:00
that need to be delivered. Scorpion I'm out getting all of
2:05
the approval and Assurance or that which he's quite a
2:09
strategically. Lengthy process to go through in
2:12
my industry and then actually hardcore delivery on site.
2:16
So that may be building new decommissioning taking down all
2:22
And that's my dado. Thank you.
2:25
And this fellow. Hi everyone.
2:28
So my name is Delta table. I've got over 20 years of
2:32
experience in working with project and driving initiative,
2:36
predominantly with the area of environment and Technology
2:41
required. All my experience, especially
2:45
for the past decade on multi-billion pound project
2:47
infrastructure. And basically, yes a I like, you
2:54
know, to empower and inspired individual because I believe
2:57
that well, we all are capable of incredible things.
3:01
Okay. Thanks and it might be useful
3:03
for listens actually if each of you could give a short
3:06
explanation of how you've got to weigh our sound, you want to
3:10
give us a brief outline of your kind of career Journey.
3:14
I can do I think all that affect thick is?
3:19
But the best description of my career Journey.
3:21
I'm very much started out with my math degree from University.
3:25
Not knowing what I wanted to do when I grow up I'm not sure I
3:29
still do I'm completely on this but I did leave University as
3:34
somebody reminded me of few years ago with a very clear
3:37
journey in mind that was about gaining commercial experience to
3:42
use of public sector. Good Which is how my career has
3:46
evolved. So I spent 10 years at Virgin
3:50
Atlantic doing an array of sales and Commercial jobs which then
3:56
meant I found myself running overseas markets and setting up
3:59
an airline in West Africa called virgin Nigeria and that was my
4:03
first opportunity to lead a huge program of work for an
4:08
organization. It was quite a few years ago now
4:11
and it was before any sort of formal Qualification.
4:15
I had a couple of really good strong project managers who ran
4:19
my p.m. a for me, but I got such a personal passion and drive
4:24
from seeing the delivery of something, I realized that it
4:27
was something that was going to become part of my career moving
4:30
forward. I then for personal reasons, had
4:34
a family decided that when her life jumping on knock planes and
4:39
thoughts that really, it was time to think about that public
4:42
sector. Good.
4:43
So I Except for a couple of charity for a few years, helping
4:48
them build new Services, children's homes, and leaving
4:51
care services and found myself quite frustrated by this stuff
4:55
called policy legislation. Guidance off said, all the stuff
5:00
that Sharon completely be used to in her world.
5:04
I thought. Well, if I'm going to understand
5:05
how I can make an impact in this space, I need to understand how
5:09
it all works. And that's how I found myself in
5:11
the civil service where I really have to ask.
5:14
Ask myself what I was bringing to the Civil Service because I
5:17
was coming with a commercial background as opposed to
5:19
experience within the public sector and realized that
5:24
actually what I was bringing with commercial program
5:26
leadership and that was what I was bringing into the Civil
5:29
Service. It was what makes me as a leader
5:31
unique in comparison to those who've got far, more experience
5:35
of whitehall's and I have. And that's where my journey into
5:40
program leadership started as since then.
5:43
I've Reading for major government projects and I know
5:48
do quite a lot to support women and people with dyslexia in the
5:52
profession, I wanted to ask you about the different mindsets
5:57
between working in commercial sort of sector in the civil
6:01
service sector is that is that true?
6:04
Because many project professionals have the chance to
6:07
do what you've done, which is to flip between Industries between
6:11
sectors. Is how different is it?
6:14
It working for the Civil Service that was working for a
6:16
commercial organization. They regulate land.
6:20
Take remember we met showing the Virgin group has the customer at
6:23
its core and and that is very much a driver but it is still a
6:29
driver for profit and I think that is the big mind mind shift
6:34
that you have to have when you come out of the commercial
6:36
sector and move into the public sector.
6:40
That driving point of your, they're either about growing the
6:44
revenue line or about increasing profitability.
6:47
That's not what the public. Try out, you know, in the public
6:50
sector, you're talking about value for money and you're
6:53
delivering for Citizens. And in all the roles, I sent a
6:56
very much about delivering for very vulnerable citizens.
7:01
The other mindset shift is the sheer scale and complexity of
7:07
what I have done in the public sector is so very, very
7:10
different. Now I thought Virgin Atlantic
7:12
was big I mean nothing in comparison to the size of just
7:17
DWP and Actually, whenever you're doing something in the
7:20
public sector is never just in your department, it interacts
7:24
with a number of other different departments.
7:27
If you're working with vulnerable people, they touched
7:30
on average about four different government departments.
7:33
So that complexity of the operating environment, I would
7:37
say is the other big shift, that's what you enjoy.
7:40
Is that something to you? You enjoy getting your teeth
7:42
into. I do, you know, it can take, it
7:45
means that it takes longer to get things done, you know, I
7:48
often say Like when people say why do projects take so long in
7:51
central government democracy literally gets in the way but
7:56
having worked in countries where there isn't a democratic
7:58
process, isn't it? Fantastic that we get Moxie in
8:03
the way. It's such a privilege to live in
8:05
a country that is so Democratic. But the reality is that
8:10
democracy can often slow down, large government major projects
8:14
because things happen, you know, elections happen, changing
8:17
parliament's happen. Changing, Ministers happens
8:19
quite regularly to all these things mean that you have to on
8:23
government major projects. Just initial that you are still
8:27
in line with what the government of the day.
8:29
It's looking for. Okay, thanks, Sam.
8:31
And Sharon. How did you get to where you
8:34
are? So I started working at
8:39
sellafield at the age of 17 leaving school knowing that I
8:45
didn't want to go to university for a number of reasons.
8:48
So I wanted a pay packet in my jean pocket to spend every
8:54
weekend. So I joined sellafield 17 as an
8:59
business environment. Finance Apprentice training, I
9:05
spent Ten years in business and finance work.
9:08
Tomorrow you to be business manager, doing some quite
9:14
transformational change Improvement, things with regards
9:17
to how we run the business from a business and financial point
9:21
of view and then I got bored. So I don't eat for a year
9:26
ensured. It was embedded for a year and
9:28
then I was like, I'm bored. I don't wanna do this anymore.
9:31
I've done it to the highest level I can get to.
9:33
I don't want to do this for the rest of my life.
9:36
So fortunately I had to Fantastic managers at the time.
9:40
One that said, I think you'd be fantastic in operations and one
9:44
that said, I think you'd be awesome in projects and there, I
9:48
was given a year in each to determine where my career was
9:52
going in the next phase of it. Don't operations, loved it
9:56
didn't, particularly like it that much wasn't that good
9:59
really, to be fair, I hadn't I hadn't been brought up off from
10:03
the shop floor, so it took a lot.
10:05
To learn it and understand it, it's complex.
10:09
I didn't underestimate that challenge done projects for the
10:12
year and absolutely loved it every element of projects.
10:17
So that was decision made at that point.
10:21
I was, you know, I was at a high level of management in the
10:23
organization but realized I needed to learn projects from
10:26
the bottom. So went right back.
10:29
Down the room. Next, to a project engineer to
10:32
learn it all from the ground, all the way up.
10:35
And then do all the various levels, we do through complex.
10:38
T levels at sellafield. So it's based on, you know,
10:42
maybe complexity of risk, complexity of size.
10:45
Those kind of things work through all of the levels of
10:48
complexity to where I am now is head of project like Sam's, you
10:53
said public sector and it's the only one I've ever experienced
10:58
so we're Sons just said about profit.
11:00
You know there are sectors are profit-making orientated.
11:05
I've never been profit more making orientated.
11:08
I've never had that. Pressure on my shoulders from
11:10
Project delivery, the pressure I've had on my shoulders is
11:14
ensuring that I spend every taxpayers money.
11:19
Wisely. And I spend it as if it's my own
11:23
money. So different kind of pressure
11:26
but very very conscious pressure all of the time.
11:29
In any decision that I make. I said previously, I didn't go
11:34
to university, I was fortunate enough during work to do my
11:39
degree in business and finance funded by work.
11:42
They release by work. Exactly.
11:44
The same as my Master's for project management.
11:47
Funded by work day. Really East by work and it was a
11:51
brilliant opportunity and at the period of my life.
11:54
When I don't bother those things did release from work was just a
11:58
godsend on how to to achieve that Sharon.
12:02
What do you enjoy most about your job?
12:06
Bringing the people along with me and I'm not gonna lie, I am a
12:11
like to be strong. So I like to achieve, I like to
12:14
hit a milestone but bringing the people with me and then helping
12:20
me do that is where I get the most enjoyment.
12:24
Okay. Great.
12:25
A stove, you come from a different angle in terms of your
12:28
career, can you tell us how what you do now and how you got
12:33
there? Yeah, so my kit well I started
12:39
in another country so I'm from Belgium.
12:42
So I've done my degree back then and I worked for a couple of big
12:47
organization like Brunswick and Daimler Chrysler.
12:52
So from that I kind of, you know, wanted to change a bit and
12:57
in and then starting to look through different Horizons and
13:04
This is where I came along in the UK and my career started.
13:10
Basically with crossrail is quite an interesting business,
13:16
you know, starting a major infrastructure project,
13:18
completely different type of organization where I used to
13:22
work with different, different ways of thinking.
13:26
So I think this is what helped me to move forward.
13:34
My degree basically is in marketing.
13:36
So when you look at marketing, you looking always at
13:39
opportunities, and this is what I think the industry and this
13:42
country kind of helped me through.
13:44
So, I am move to one level to the other, and, by being
13:48
curious, I kind of move through. You know, the different
13:52
different roles and today, working in Project controls is
13:57
giving me again. That opportunity to be curious.
14:00
Bring novelty to the Aunt, especially, you know, when we
14:06
looking at the technology. So obviously, when you're
14:09
working in Project controls, you're looking at all those
14:11
different aspect like Risk Management is something that is
14:15
kind of well done. Now would say in the industry.
14:18
But looking with opportunities with eyes of innovation with
14:23
eyes of New Perspective, I think this is what, you know, we need
14:27
to bring a bit more positive on one project and this is what I'm
14:32
trying to do. Thinking is well like bringing
14:38
people together as it was mentioned earlier.
14:42
Is something that is quite interesting, obviously on
14:44
Project. That's what we do is it will
14:46
bring people together to achieve great goals and I believe that,
14:51
you know, we working in challenging environment, we
14:55
really need to make things, you know, working looking at, you
15:02
know, future and And new position.
15:05
And so, yeah, thank you talking about bringing people together
15:10
and this podcast is being done. It was an inspired by women in
15:15
project manager. Apm's with him conference, which
15:17
I understand you helped put together as well.
15:22
I wanted to ask each of you. If, if the conference gave you
15:26
any food for thought of anything, in particular
15:28
resonated with you from that day, because I found it a really
15:31
bossy event and You could tell that people were just enjoying
15:36
being around each other and certainly to have a space like
15:40
that that was predominantly women as well.
15:43
I think gave the conference in the day a kind of safety in
15:49
terms of allow people to talk about quite you know openly and
15:53
honestly about situations they found themselves in and was
15:57
hugely valuable Estelle. Was there anything in particular
16:00
that you you drew from a conference that gave you food
16:04
for thought? Yeah.
16:06
So you know, the basis of whipping was kind of created
16:12
because it was a safe space for women basically to talk about
16:17
different challenges, they were cantering, you know, in the
16:20
workplace and together they were finding Solutions and this is
16:24
how whip him kind of bra. So that is an important aspect
16:29
and you know, having women all together, I think we all buzzing
16:34
as you mentioned. This is really a great
16:37
experience that when bringing women together is always like,
16:41
bringing that positive energy and that great attitude of, you
16:44
know, looking at things in different angle and with
16:47
different attitude. What we need to note as well, is
16:52
we need allies. You know, having women in the
16:56
profession is great, but without allies without the men out
17:00
there, helping us to be able to be ourselves.
17:04
This wouldn't be Be able to happen.
17:09
And we were talking a lot during the conference about emotional
17:13
intelligence promoting diversity for positive change.
17:17
And I think this is it, we all coming from different
17:20
background, real from different origin, we all did think
17:24
differently. And, and I think this is what is
17:27
bringing, you know, this this conference to a great to a great
17:34
hint. And I really believe that this
17:37
is something that we need to continue and having, you know,
17:43
well, continuing this experience, basically, would you
17:45
like more with men to come along to the conference?
17:49
I would love to yes, I think is important that, you know, we do
17:53
not separate each other. I realize that sometimes, you
17:57
know, especially I think the in the industry, we kind of, you
18:01
know, promoting women in the workplace which is great but we
18:05
don't need to Forget that, you know, the guys that were there
18:07
before, you know, they've done quite a lot of great journey as
18:11
well. And without them we can't hear.
18:14
I think we need to have some sort of a balance between having
18:18
women in the workplace and only replacing, you know, some roles
18:22
that women. I think we need to keep
18:25
understanding that we can hurt feelings as well.
18:28
You know, it's just, I think he's important that we We keep
18:33
that conversation and synchronicity between you know,
18:41
everyone in the workplace I think thank you Sam.
18:46
Anything particular resonate with you Say for me is opposed
18:51
to try many of the different sessions.
18:54
I went to really interesting, but actually, what resonated to
18:57
me, more of many things with the power of having so many,
19:01
particularly young women at the start of their careers in one
19:06
place, not seeing blast feelings that I certainly feel that I
19:11
experienced when I felt that in my career just full of energy
19:17
passion and A change of conversation.
19:21
I think that has started to happen.
19:24
That's not so much. Now in this space when I started
19:28
my career that was about women can have everything you just got
19:31
to think about how you smashed the glass ceiling too far more
19:35
of a space. Now of I want a career that can
19:39
Flex around my life aspirations and those life, aspirations
19:43
could be about being gay program leader and traveling the world
19:48
or and herring. For parents or and having your
19:51
own family. And it felt like a younger
19:54
generation who were just a bit more fluffy dare.
19:58
I say, then I certainly was about what they wanted from
20:04
their career as a whole, not just what they wanted from the
20:07
workplace. The other things that really
20:10
resonated with me was the number of conversations that we got
20:14
into that was about the intersectionality of different.
20:19
Active characteristics. So some really interesting
20:22
conversations with colleagues at the conference who have
20:26
disabilities have caring responsibilities and a lot of
20:29
conversations with beIN colleagues who were talking
20:34
about some of the specific challenges, they find being
20:37
ineffective that had historically a profession that
20:41
had historically had a male bias towards it and how to come into
20:46
the sector, not just, as a woman.
20:48
But a man A woman with maybe a black African background or
20:53
whatever it may be really energizing and empowering
20:57
conversation and some Sharon, how about you.
21:02
So firstly it was an absolute honor to be a guest speaker at
21:07
Along With Sam at our session. And secondly, I done the mentor
21:13
session in the afternoon as well again, absolute honor to be
21:16
asked to do that. I think the most resonated Thing
21:21
For Me Above anything was the fact that women out there do
21:27
need help and support still. And I don't mean to deliver the
21:32
day job, you know, the comfortable with what the need
21:34
to do, and how they need to do, to successfully more to do with,
21:38
how they structure their own development, and their own
21:42
progress. So, like Sam said, meantime
21:46
during the session, And the amount of people that came over
21:50
and asked for advice were talking about issues and
21:53
concerns was quite alarming. So really positive that no issue
21:57
with their job a little bit alarming with regards to Brahma
22:01
from this problem. How, how would you advise me
22:04
with that? And as a result of that, I'm
22:07
sorry what, what problems or challenges were?
22:11
They coming? So I talked with this is no
22:14
structure within my Organization for any progression.
22:17
I'm Can really hard, but I'm not being seen.
22:20
How do I do that? So it wasn't about doing the
22:23
job. It was everything that should
22:25
come along with doing the job. And as a result of that I have
22:30
met with quite a few people after that and hopefully helped
22:33
and advise them. So for me it was everything that
22:37
the ladies of just said but for me I took away everything and
22:40
yet there's still a bit more to be done, not with dear job, but
22:44
a lot of the other as important elements of If you job with
22:49
regards to, what did I take away?
22:52
We talked about the empathy scale on the introduction of
22:54
these. That just enlightened me where I
22:57
think I'm extremely intuitive. And it's one of my key strengths
23:02
when I looked at that and sympathy versus empathy vast
23:06
difference. So, that was the one thing I
23:08
took away to educate myself on the empathy scale and then for
23:14
me overarching, With regards to opinion on the conference in
23:21
invigorated me, I love the level of honesty and openness.
23:25
It was refreshing to a degree that I probably never seen with
23:30
hundreds of people before and granted me a little bit.
23:34
You know, I sit in my own little Cocoon of sellafield limited
23:37
and, and I when I have met a much wider audience, I think.
23:42
Yeah, I maybe need to spread this peace, love and learning a
23:45
bit bigger than what I'm doing at the moment, so, Grounded me a
23:48
little bit. That's Association for project
23:51
management. We know your most important
23:54
project is your career but as a project manager, it's not always
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24:21
Bearing in mind with what you said, the term about when you
24:25
starting out with a different world to today.
24:28
So I was going to ask you if you could give advice to younger
24:32
self, what advice would that be? But actually I think I'd be most
24:37
interested think yeah? Reflecting.
24:40
What you said term that, what's your experience now of being a
24:43
senior leader in the project profession?
24:45
And what advice would you give to say for examples of types of
24:50
Of people who came along to the conference here in their 20s 30s
24:53
or even sort of an older mid-career you're looking and
24:57
have the ambition to step up to senior level.
25:01
So the advice to the younger version of myself is, don't
25:05
worry about the pathway. Take the interesting exciting
25:08
opportunities when they arrive and when you see them so taking
25:13
that forward now to a new quite different Dynamic World thinking
25:18
about, I've Like that for the Lost of conversations, with
25:22
people who reached out at the conference, with both people
25:26
trying to find their first job on the ladder.
25:28
But also people starting to think about how they yeah make
25:33
themselves. Seen and how they progress
25:35
within an organization and my advice to them.
25:41
And to people within the civil services often there is
25:44
something about stay with you. Focus on doing what you're
25:46
doing. Really, really well, we can
25:50
build Build ourselves personal development plans that are so
25:53
focused on the personal development that we forget that.
25:56
Actually what people see is a job done really, really well and
26:00
there's a balance there isn't that to not just be focused on
26:03
the next thing but make sure you're delivering well in the
26:07
day job and then in thinking about those next steps and how
26:11
you build themselves. There is something for me that's
26:13
about authenticity. You are who you are.
26:17
I will pin to the office every day.
26:20
As a member of TK with my dyslexia juggling a gazillion
26:25
different balls. That is who I am and I'm a
26:28
people person who happens to have a math degree and that's
26:31
all influences, the type of leader I am.
26:35
And when I'm talking to people who are starting to think about
26:39
their leadership Journey, there is something about spend as much
26:44
time reflecting and thinking of what sort of person you are as
26:48
much as workers you are in work. Take as much time as doing that,
26:52
is you do thinking about what a leader needs to be.
26:55
Because you are you and for all the training and development
27:00
that can happen in the leadership space, you've got to
27:03
be able to do it in log then typically you way.
27:06
So don't lose sight. When you're doing that
27:09
leadership training, when you're thinking about the career
27:12
progression, is this an environment?
27:15
That's the right place for you and your leadership style.
27:18
And what does that look like? And what?
27:20
Two people? Valuing.
27:22
The others felt that being a woman has impacted on your
27:26
career, either positively or negatively, is it something that
27:31
you carry around with you every day?
27:35
So I will find a place where sharing a funny story that I
27:38
said at the conference which is that very early in my career, I
27:42
knew that as a woman, I had an ability to get him good for
27:47
sales out of somebody that my older male colleagues couldn't
27:52
do and and I, my Approach in my early 20s for that and women in
27:58
their early twenties, now are horrified when I say this but it
28:00
was a different context than the different environments.
28:04
I really felt that if somebody was going to be silly enough
28:08
then that was the their fall and I should take advantage of it.
28:12
The world has thankfully moved on, I would say since then and I
28:17
think that the way being the woman has helped and caused me
28:20
some challenges. I often look at the world quite
28:26
differently, too. Many of my male colleagues
28:29
through the lens of program delivery I think in comparison
28:33
to my mail Colleagues, I tend to look at the system through the
28:36
lens of the people and be influencing the change, whereas
28:40
I see my male colleagues often, look at the world from more
28:44
structurally than I do and therefore how you bring those
28:48
together and make that work together is really strong and is
28:53
really powerful, but I sometimes question is that big woman or is
28:56
that being dyslexic? Who knows there's a whole
28:58
different conversation that you could have?
29:02
I found some Maybe Being a mum actually has probably influenced
29:07
and created more barriers, which are as much about me grappling
29:11
with how I want to prioritize. Work over family, perhaps
29:16
differently at this stage, as to how I looked at the world before
29:20
I had children, I don't think I've ever been in a situation
29:24
where I've not been able to deliver something, because I'm a
29:28
woman. But I have encountered sexist
29:31
comments and sexist remarks along the way.
29:34
Way that I've always felt strong enough and empowered enough to
29:39
call out and actually my experience has been if you call
29:43
them out, once the person doesn't dare do it again.
29:48
How did you do that in a way? That did you do that at the
29:51
time? When someone said something or
29:52
was it, did you then think about it and then react later to it?
29:57
No, I call this how? Absolutely in the time in the
30:00
moment, that's so weird. Yes.
30:04
How did you do it? What?
30:05
Because it still happens, right? In some sectors, it still
30:09
happens. What is so?
30:11
So an effective way of doing it polite, way of doing it.
30:14
So, I've always used humor Emma, so I have always found a way of
30:20
doing it. So I found myself in meeting
30:24
where some in Africa, right? Would be assumed I was a man.
30:28
What I walked in the room because my name's Sam and I've
30:32
had to explain that. No, you don't need to see mr.
30:34
Olson. My husband worked for a
30:36
pharmaceutical company. Think you're here to talk about
30:38
planes. I've done it in situations where
30:42
somebody has assumed that I'm there to take two minutes which
30:46
point actually, I've called out my dyslexia and said, no,
30:48
really, believe me. You don't want the senior person
30:51
with dyslexia in the room to be writings of in it.
30:54
Since there's just something about using a bit of And
30:57
professor of guys, stop it there.
30:59
But that is not we're not in the 1980s and and it changes the
31:06
tone immediately. But I think it needs calling out
31:09
and you've got to call us out because it's not a healthy
31:12
environment. Thank you Estelle.
31:16
Can you put together succinctly? All the advice?
31:20
You picked up the advice, you'd give to the younger self and
31:24
also any advice, you'd give to Women who are aspiring to get to
31:28
the top to where you are now. Okay.
31:33
So the list of, you know, the great advice for from my younger
31:37
self is well I would like to say the first one is take the risk.
31:43
You know, just go ahead, don't stop yourself or, you know, with
31:49
going for the things that you believe that are good for you.
31:53
But even though people are saying you might not have the
31:56
skills or the competencies, I think it worth trying.
32:02
It was trying everything you know and if it's not the sector
32:06
that sweetie well that's fine you move on to another one.
32:09
There is always that opportunity and then another great advice I
32:16
would say is ask questions ask many questions as you can.
32:20
I think that's the that's one of the basics you know.
32:22
If you don't understand something just go for it.
32:24
If you want to know a bit more about type of role or industry
32:29
were just ask those people. You know, the world is now open.
32:32
We're more open that used to be and what I'm noticing as well is
32:37
you like to have someone that can be some sort of a mentor or
32:42
a coach that can hold your hand when you know, you do not feel
32:46
quite comfortable in certain times.
32:49
So you always want someone to give you a little push, you
32:53
know? And give you some confidence
32:55
that actually, you know, or just can answer your concerns or
33:01
anyways. I I think being being able to
33:06
talk to someone about your fear, I think is very important and,
33:13
you know, obviously being a foreign in this country, you
33:17
know, I didn't know quite well, the language start with.
33:21
So then you know, you need to find some people that you can
33:25
kind of trust start with you know, and through my journey I
33:28
had like a lot of great managers.
33:32
Is that really believed in me? I think the me is being like,
33:36
you know, finding those individual.
33:38
Basically that give you that little push that move you to the
33:42
next step on that ladder. And, you know, most of my
33:47
manager always said to me is still be patient.
33:50
Be patient. But obviously I'm not.
33:55
I like, you know, to go not only quick but you know I'm just
33:59
thinking well if it doesn't go this way.
34:02
I can change my roots and, you know, I think there is different
34:07
ways of reaching the top. There is no one separates, you
34:11
know, people say, well, is that not?
34:13
When say that every route goes to Rome with something like
34:16
that? Everybody please to Rome.
34:19
There you go. That's the English for far away.
34:21
So so this is it, you know, I mean if you want to make your
34:26
career, I think there is no 11, Yellow Brick Road, there are
34:30
many and And I think this on that road, you need to find the
34:36
people that can help you move. And that's the most important
34:41
part, I think. Thank you.
34:43
So, and and Sharon, what advice would you give to younger self
34:47
or advice to people women, especially who are looking to
34:51
get to the top? I would say to you younger
34:56
women, you are starting off with three superpowers, one, You
35:02
female to you young three, you're going to have a drive to
35:09
the level. You probably aren't going to see
35:11
that level again, any career. But that level consistently do.
35:15
Never let anybody make you believe that they are not
35:19
superpowers because by God, they bloody our superpowers.
35:25
Other advice would be very similar to the ladies.
35:27
I'm not going to lie, it's all about.
35:29
Make a plan and workout too. Bloody deliver that Um so it's
35:33
about having a development plan, what being very conscious that
35:39
it should not be 100% work orientated.
35:43
The development plans that I put in place for myself and all of
35:47
my people that either work for me or a mentor a 50/50 it's 50
35:52
work. 50 life. So what you want to achieve in
35:54
your life out of work, what you want to achieve at work.
35:59
So get a development plan in place.
36:02
Get a mentor in place, have routine sessions in the diary
36:07
with your line manager, do discussion any issues and topics
36:11
volunteer for something outside of your normal day job, you
36:15
know, show the Enterprise your organization, your company that
36:19
you willing get that additional exposure with different people.
36:24
Start with the mindset of no one else is going to look after you.
36:28
So you have to look after you and then anything he get from.
36:32
That is an absolute bonus. So if you've got a brilliant
36:35
team, great, we've got brilliant mentors.
36:38
Fantastic. If you've got an awesome line
36:41
manager perfect but start off the only use going to look after
36:47
you. I like to think that with every
36:52
touch I leave a Trace. Race.
36:54
And I've got to be conscious of that.
36:56
So be conscious of that in your early career because that could
36:59
be positive or negative. But be very thoughtful that edit
37:04
which, you have with any person will leave an impression and
37:08
opinion in a dress. And I think the key thing is
37:14
just sealed, don't not see it. Don't not have the confidence to
37:19
see, don't feel you're not experienced or knowledge enough
37:22
to see if it's in your Brain, and you're thinking it just see
37:27
it. The Daft questions probably nine
37:31
times out of 10, of the most permanent questions that nobody
37:36
is brave enough to ask or discuss.
37:39
So Juiced seat. And would you also say just ask?
37:48
So you're saying, just ask questions, but I'm you talking
37:54
about all of you about the you do your job, you do it
37:56
brilliantly, but you also have to be seen to do it.
38:00
Yes. Yeah.
38:00
And I think do not have to recognize that it's just not
38:05
enough to get on with the job. You actually have to share that
38:08
what you're, what you're doing with the people.
38:10
You have to think slightly politically, I guess as well to
38:13
make. Make sure people know what
38:15
you've done and to to not feel shy about saying, look, I've
38:19
done this, I dessert I deserve a pay rise, it's okay to ask for a
38:24
pay rise and it's okay that maybe you won't get it, but
38:27
you're showing. Look this is what I've done.
38:29
I deserve to be heard, is that something that's something I
38:32
found from my career? It is it something that you
38:35
would advise to so all about the pier eyes element?
38:40
So you've been real working really, really hard for 12
38:43
months. No one has seen what you have
38:46
been doing, therefore why should they give you a pay rise?
38:49
So take that, as an example, if you've got a development
38:52
planning place that your line manager has signed on to that
38:56
they're going to support you in. If you have got really clear
38:59
objectives, identified for that year, that on your monthly
39:04
meetings with your manager you're reviewing, there is no
39:08
reason why at the end of your thoughts, I mentioned a PMA.
39:12
So Formance management assessment meeting, whatever it
39:17
may be. At the end of that 12 month
39:20
period. You have all of the evidence to
39:22
show that you achieved what you said you were going to achieve.
39:26
I think when you talk about sitting down and talking about
39:29
appear eyes, it's all about the people who determine that all on
39:33
the same page. This is what I expect, continual
39:37
progress, monitoring of that expectation and it being visible
39:41
transparent and open Okay, that sounds entirely logical.
39:49
I we've run out of time. I just wanted a final, your
39:54
final thoughts are each of you, just how you feel about?
39:57
How optimistic, do you feel about gender equality in the
40:02
profession and how much more needs to change?
40:06
Do you feel optimistic? Do you feel pessimistic?
40:10
Sam Hey, there's one bit that we missed off the last
40:15
conversation, which you could pick a color on in between
40:20
everything we said about, I would like to call out, and
40:23
that's to say to everyone. When you go into the workplace,
40:27
that doesn't mean you've left education.
40:29
Every day is a learning day. You've got to keep continuously
40:33
learning the world around. You, is changing the world
40:36
around. You is evolving, you've got to
40:38
keep up the distal ileum project leadership with what Is
40:42
happening in The Wider environment all the time.
40:44
They always say to everyone. Every day is a learning day as
40:47
always, it's a wasted day. Am I optimistic where I think we
40:52
are? Well on the way there, I think
40:54
we are really in a space now where I know that I've caught
40:59
said that I've called out sexism when I seen it, I don't see it
41:03
that much anymore, actually but it is up to the Next Generation
41:13
coming up of male and female leaders to ensure that that
41:18
parity continues and that there is a conversation to be had
41:22
about what happened what is parity for women is quite an
41:27
interesting place for me. So is parity feeling, you can
41:30
have it all and you can be 100% at home and 100% at home and
41:36
represent at work leader. Or is that just completely
41:39
exhausting? So I feel really optimistic I
41:44
feel that the conversation is changing and evolving.
41:48
That said I think that if you go back to that intersectionality
41:54
point and start looking at women with caring responsibilities
41:59
women from certain ethnic backgrounds and women with
42:03
certain disabilities, I think there's still a long way to go
42:07
in those spaces. So a cell, any final thoughts.
42:13
How do you feel about equality within the profession?
42:19
For me. So I'm quite optimistic and I
42:22
need to think about the Legacy as well.
42:25
So today as an individual, what is the Legacy, I want to give,
42:29
you know, through the next generation and obviously this is
42:32
what we're doing here today is and that's all we're talking
42:34
about those issues and how we can tackle them and how we can
42:38
find to do to the next level, and we can help change things
42:42
and overcome those obstacles together and basically until
42:47
until we succeed. We are that momentum and I think
42:52
this is, you know, all of us today I enabling this movement.
42:59
Thank you, Sharon. Any final thoughts on the
43:01
subject. How do you feel?
43:04
Yes, I'm optimistic. I think we have still got a bit
43:09
of a fight and I think that's Legacy of decades, were
43:13
conscious choices for meals, have been taken.
43:20
So, the conscious decision is always the introduce, the man in
43:23
the room rather than the woman. And I think that we still have
43:26
to work quite hard to get the quality in that.
43:29
I think we have to consciously be aware of decisions, made in
43:34
decades, prior tools, history, to be able to get that equality.
43:39
I think the most enlightening thing for me until I've actually
43:42
seen it last week. I attended a managing
43:46
construction course. So there was 20 employees on the
43:49
managing construction course. In 18 of them were female never
43:55
in my whole career. Have I ever been in a, in a
43:59
meeting of any description that's been dominated like that?
44:03
I females. So, I am optimistic, and I am
44:07
actually seeing it with my own eyes, which is, Outstandingly
44:12
amazing. Thank you so much.
44:15
I want to thank all of you for finding the time and passing on
44:19
your wisdom, and to listen, especially those who couldn't
44:22
make it to the conference. So it's been a really positive
44:25
and quite emotional. So, thanks again for everyone.
44:29
It's been brilliant. Thank you, thank you, thank you,
44:34
appreciate it. Thanks again to Samuelson Sharon
44:38
Parker Brandon and the start of the traveler for joining us and
44:42
to you for listening to this episode of the Opium poppy.
44:44
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